Podcast Summary: No Bullsh!t Leadership

Episode 386: Truth Doesn't Travel Up – Trust but Verify

Host: Martin G Moore
Release Date: January 20, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Martin G Moore explores the timeless concept of "Management by Walking Around" (MBWA), emphasizing its ongoing relevance in a modern, often virtual workplace. Moore argues that leaders must actively seek out ground truth within their organizations because sanitized, incomplete, or filtered information naturally accumulates as it flows up through layers of hierarchy. The main message: trust your people, but always verify—the truth doesn’t travel up unless you go looking for it. Moore unpacks the origins and benefits of MBWA, warns of potential pitfalls, and offers seven practical keys for embedding this approach into leadership routines.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Importance of Human Connection in Leadership

• In-person leadership still matters:
  • “You can’t lead at your best unless you can connect with and influence your people. Which is why I'm such a big fan of the face to face interactions that physical co location facilitates.” – Martin [01:41]
  • Virtual/remote work creates more transactional, less impactful touchpoints.

The History and Enduring Value of MBWA

• Origins:
  • Credited to David Packard at Hewlett-Packard in the 1940s (the “HP Way”) and popularized by Tom Peters (1980s).
• Core concept:
  • The best managers get out of their offices, observing and listening informally to understand what’s really happening.
  • “Your people need to see you, but it's equally important that you see them.” [01:50]
• Wikipedia summary:
  • MBWA fosters improvements in morale, team purpose, productivity, and total quality management.

Evidence: Uplift and Limitations

• Motivational impact:
  • Visits from managers can temporarily boost performance, echoing the Hawthorne Effect (attention boosts productivity) [04:06].
• Short-lived effects:
  • Such boosts may fade quickly, suggesting a need for regular, unpredictable presence.

"Go and See for Yourself": Learning from Toyota

• Gemba principle:
  • Managers are expected to observe frontline reality directly.
  • “There's still no substitute for shoe leather.” – Citing The Economist and Toyota example [06:56].

The "Seagull Manager" Danger

• Definition:
  • “A seagull manager swoops in uninvited, shits all over everything, steals a chip and then flies out again. You think you're being helpful, but the impacts on everyone else can be significant.” – Martin [06:37]
• Risk:
  • Raising expectations or undermining intermediate leaders by “fixing” problems below your level.

Barriers to Truth: Dilution and Sanitization

• Dilution effect:
  • Information and alignment degrade each time communication passes down a layer.
  • “Even when you go just one level below…the explanation isn’t quite as crisp…So you can imagine what this looks like by the time it gets to the front line leaders.” [10:20]
• Sanitization effect:
  • Upward messages get filtered, curated, or made more palatable for the boss; optimism bias is common.

Using MBWA for Calibration

• "Bullshit detector":
  • Informal conversations provide missing pieces and context; enables testing of official narratives [12:40].

The Seven Keys to Management by Walking Around

(Core segment: [14:15]–[22:44])

1. Spontaneity & Unpredictability

   • Avoid telegraphing visits; schedule some at unusual hours.
   • “The best results come from unannounced appearances. If people knew I was coming, they'd prepare in advance.” [14:50]

2. Casual, Meandering Conversations

   • Avoid interrogations—focus on relationship building and trust.
   • Use open, informal questions:
     • “How safe do you feel when you come to work?”
     • “What's the one thing that really gives you the shits about your job?” [16:12]
   • Mix work talk with small talk (family, football, weather).

3. Don't Disable Leaders Below

   • Don’t play hero or undermine intermediate leaders.
   • “The fastest way to hobble the leaders between you and that team is to solve a problem that their leader couldn't.” [17:36]
   • Prompt staff to engage their direct manager first.

4. Debrief Through the Line

   • Cascade any concerns through correct channels; let local leaders investigate and report.
   • “If I heard anything that didn't gel with my current view of the world, I'd raise it with my accountable executive.” [18:37]

5. Contextualize Conversations

   • Always consider:
     • Why is this person telling me this?
     • What’s their perspective or agenda?
   • Example: Take criticism from a union organizer with a grain of salt; consider context and motivation. [19:44]

6. Don't Make Promises

   • Listen, don’t commit on the spot.
   • “Remember, you can't just play the hero and trample all over the accountabilities of the leaders below you.” [20:32]
   • Only promise to follow up when you have full context—and always close the loop if you do.

7. Calibrate Formal Reporting

   • Use informal insights to check the accuracy and completeness of official reports.
   • You don’t need to escalate every inconsistency—bank what you learn for context.
   • “Sometimes you'll just park something as useful information that you can rely upon. Later.” [21:36]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Truth doesn't travel up, you have to actively pursue it and the higher up you go the harder that is."
  – Martin G Moore [02:33]

• On the dangers of ‘seagull managers’:
  “A seagull manager swoops in uninvited, shits all over everything, steals a chip and then flies out again. You think you're being helpful, but the impacts on everyone else can be significant.” [06:37]

• On the importance of spontaneous visits:
  “You never see a truly accurate picture, but the whole purpose is to get away from sanitized, stage managed interactions.” [15:04]

• On leadership accountability:
  “Whatever you do, don't weaken the chain of command and don't dilute the accountability of the leaders below you.” [18:35]

Final Thoughts & Practical Takeaways

• MBWA is a timeless, powerful tool for leaders:
  • Increases morale, provides direct intelligence, and helps leaders seek the unsanitized truth.
• Balance is essential:
  • Don’t undermine chain of command; use what you learn for context and calibration, not immediate intervention.
• Calibrating information:
  • The best leaders develop a robust “bullshit detector” by blending formal and informal feedback.
• Action required:
  • Make MBWA a habit—trust but always verify what you’re being told from below.

Recommended Resource:
Moore mentions a free downloadable PDF guide for implementing Management by Walking Around, available at yourcomentor.com.