← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:00]
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- [04:57]
Zena Kaita
For the Athletic I'm Zena Keda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's basketball. Make sure you subscribe to this pod wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe to the Athletic because you do not want to miss out on this year round in depth coverage of the game you love, joined today by Athletic Women's Basketball writers Chantelle Jennings and Sabrina Merchant. I'm Zena Caida and let's go through what we're about to cover today or what I'm calling our pregame scout. All Right. So first up, a team that was not originally in the top 25, who is now making quite a name for themselves. That is Oregon State. They just recently had two big wins in the Pac 12. And we're going to break that down and also talk about what's been the change. Then there's Caitlin Clark, who had a close chance to write history on Sunday. And then Nebraska grabbed the pen, switched up the story a little bit. We'll break that down. And then last but not least, we're going to go into Team USA's experience in Antwerp, Belgium, if there's anything to be concerned about, what's exciting about this team. And we'll quickly touch on that UConn South Carolina game. Not quite the score you expected or maybe was it? All right, let's kick it off. Oregon State. This is a team that was not originally ranked come into this season. We at the Athletic are not afraid to admit they were not in our preseason top 25. They weren't even in our almost famous section. Okay, we admit we also look them over, but it wasn't just us, it was the entire country because they weren't in the APs, they weren't in anyone's. And at the time that we're recording this, they are now ranked 11th in both the Athletic rankings and Sabrina Merchants power rankings. And then also in the AP top 25, they are number 11. So let's set some context. Last year, their record overall, 1318 in conference play, 4 and 14. Okay, this is in last year's season, they were second to last in the PAC 12. This year, looking very different. Okay, 23 overall record. They're 9. 3 in conference play. Their only losses came to Stanford, which I saw in person. 56, 65 USC, close one in January, but he lost 5456 to them and then two days later lost the UCLA 54, 65. Those are their only three losses. And like I said at the start, they just got these two big Pac 12 wins over Colorado. Utah kept Peely looking normal. They made her look human. Alyssa Peely at Utah and then all did the same thing for Colorado. Sabrina Shantelle, I wanna first ask you, coming into this season, no one could have expected what Oregon State has become. This team does not have a senior on their roster yet. Their, like, average height is like six feet. They're all so tall and long. What was it that made not only us, but the entire country kind of overlook them?
- [08:18]
Unnamed Analyst
I mean, I think it's kind of hard because there's only so much Oxygen in every conference, right? And so you're looking at a conference like the PAC12 and you're saying, okay, Stanford's going to be really good. Ucla, you know, brought in Lauren Betts, bunch of returners, Charisma Osborne's back, they're going to be really good. USC as juju Watkins and Ray Marshall, they'll be good. Utah, Colorado, stacked again. And you're kind of getting down further and further and you're like, and here's this team that finished, you know, 4 and 14 and conference play last year. How many pegs can they really climb up in this conference when it looks like there's so many other teams that are better? And then you're looking at other conferences across the country and trying to say, where did they sort of slate in against really good ACC teams and really good Big Ten and SEC and Big 12 teams. And it's just like there's not enough room to sort of even look at all these. And I think early on in non conference, like, they didn't really play the kind of competition where we could have gauged anything about them. And so I think because of those factors, to me, really, they flew under the radar early.
- [09:24]
Zena Kaita
Sabrina, when did you notice, like, oh, shoot, I may have, I may have underestimated them. When was the point in the season for you?
- [09:34]
Chantelle Jennings
So it's interesting, we talked about Oregon State when we were mentioning those undefeated teams earlier in January. Just the teams that, you know, hadn't played anyone yet but had still managed to win all of their games. And there's, you know, obviously nothing, nothing to be said about that because you gotta beat the opponents that are placed in front of you. But I think what really turned the tide for me with Oregon State, so I was at those games in LA when they played USC and ucla because I wanted to see what they looked like against real competition. They look good. You know, they impose their style of play on the game. And even though they didn't win, like those scores that you're mentioning, those 54 to 56, 54 to 65, like that's every Oregon State game. And sometimes they're the 65 side of it, sometimes they're the 54 side of it, but they make you play slow. They, you know, they don't speed anybody up. They don't turn anybody over. They impose their will on the game. And I kind of thought, okay, like, you know, those LA games, they were interesting, right? Like they, they played them close but didn't win. It was really when they beat Utah at Oregon State that I was like, oh, like this team is ridiculous because they, they won that game 91 to 66 and admittedly in Corvallis, but when you can put up 91 points on a team like Utah, that's, that's not nothing. So it was that, that kind of turned the tide for me. But, you know, it's one thing to win at home, another thing to win on the road. So I've just been waiting for them to get one good road win, one good road win. And this was their first chance after the LA games and they, they ace it. I mean, like, not just Utah, they, they held Utah to 44 points this weekend. That's insane. Like, there are individual games in her career, I believe, where Alyssa Pele has scored 40 points. And to hold that entire Utah team to 44 points at home is maybe one of the most impressive things I've seen in college basketball this season. And then not only to do that, but two days later, we talk about how the mountain trip is the hardest road trip maybe in the country, because you've got to play at elevation. You have that travel in between. They went to Colorado, a number four team in the country, and just smacked them. They were up by 20 plus really early. And yeah, the final score makes it look like it was a close game. It was not a close game. This was a throw butt whipping by Oregon State. And I mean, at this point I'm even wondering, like, do we have them too low? Like, is 11 too low for a team that only has three losses, has all of these impressive wins? Is anybody watching? Because they're on the PAC12 network? I don't know, but I'm just happy that they're at least at number 11 and it's something that we can keep looking at going forward.
- [11:59]
Unnamed Analyst
Well, I think looking at all of these factors that we're kind of talking about right now, that nationally a lot of people have a hard time seeing them. And so when people look at sort of just the stats from last season or at the record from last season, you know, that's what stuck out to me was 4 and 14. And then I was like, but I feel like they lost a lot of close games last year. Like, you know, and then I went back and I was looking at it and I was like, of their 14 conference losses, only two were by double digits. Like, they lost a ton of games by two or three points. They lost two overtime games last year. And so, you know, when you talk to coaches and Scott Rook has done this before, ahead of the Final four run in 2016 with the Beavers. Like every season is building towards something and you're learning lessons and there's sort of maybe that stretch like Oregon State hopefully didn't want to go through a nine game losing stretch like they did last year. But it's sort of like, I'm sure the roots of the season are planted there because it's like the lessons that this group learned in those games, in those close losses, being able to turn them into wins, like that's clearly the tide that, you know, they just had to mature through from last year to this year. And whether that sort of we see the fruits of it in the mountain road trip or even the close losses elsewhere on the road this year, I think all of this is building towards what could be a really special march for, you know, people in Corvallis.
- [13:18]
Zena Kaita
What's pretty crazy is the fact that they're all going to come back next year. Like this is a team that's led by juniors and you know, their best player is a sophomore Reagan Beers making these double doubles with that youth aspect of it. I'm very impressed with their defense. You know, Sabrina, when you mentioned they impose their will and they impose their style of play, their defense is the thing that really puts them into games and they score off of their defense as well. They've been able to keep these big dominant scorers in check relatively, and particularly I'm thinking about that first Utah loss and then also thinking about the most recent Utah loss. And their defense can be very suffocating and yet they're disciplined about fouling. And when you think about young players playing aggressive defense, that is not a correlation you usually put through is their ability to keep people off the line as much as they get to the line. And I wanted to ask, you know, especially Sabrina, you. You were able to see them against the UCLA and against usc. What makes their defense so suffocating and so effective?
- [14:19]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, I think part of it is just the length, right? They're kind of big at every position. They make those passing lanes smaller. It's just there's a lot of size staring at you when you're playing against them. And so just having that, you know, arms everywhere, I think is just an immediate deterrent when you're trying to run an offense, when you're trying to like get your beautiful flowing motion actions going. Like, it's hard to do that against Oregon State because they take up a lot of space against you. But then what's interesting is like they don't Use, like, those long arms to actually force turnovers. They just want to slow you down and make you just get out of rhythm. Like, they don't force a lot of turnovers. They don't run off of turnovers. You'd think with a younger team, like, they're trying to push the pace. They're trying to increase the number of possessions and, like, you know, get you into track me. No, no, it's exact opposite. They want to just get in the muck as much as possible and make you think as slowly as they do because their actions are very slow to develop. Right? Like, you watch Reagan Beers in the post, and she is ceiling, like, six times before the ball comes to her inside. So that's how deliberately they work, and they want everybody else to work that deliberately on the other end. And most teams don't like doing that, right? Like, they like running one or two actions, getting to an easy option. And like, Oregon State does not let you do anything easy. And then just Beers is so versatile. Like, you talk about how she held peely, you know, fourth, 17, I believe in this last game, like, Alyssa Peely can score on anybody. Like, we watched her against South Carolina scoring Camila Cardoso with those, like, variety of up fakes. She's got the three pointers. Like, she's got the whole bag. And Regan Beers is out everywhere on the court like she's a big girl and she's keeping up with Peely laterally, but then not only can she do that next game, 6, 7, Nettie Vonli, she's just battling with her in the post, keeping her from doing anything, too. So just that ability to contain every kind of opponent. Personally, I didn't know that Beers was capable of this. Like, she was the sixth woman of the year in the Pac 12 last year, right? Like, she's coming off the bench for most of the season, and I'm just thinking, like, Scott, what are we. What are we doing? Like, was this just, like, sandbagging for a year, you know, so we could, you know, spring the Beavers on everybody this season? But, like, just in terms of Reagan, in terms of, like, Talia Van all off and, like, it's just a remarkable player development story for me with Oregon State because everybody is getting better. It's not like they brought in a ton of new people. Like, Kelsey Reese is new from Utah. Tamia Gardner had, like, a bit of a health issue last year. So she can play a ton, but it's a lot of the same roster. They're just all getting better. In the system. And yeah, maybe they surprised us, but like, I don't know that we necessarily overlooked or we just like didn't see their practices during the summer. Like, they just all got a lot better and they're showing it on the court now.
- [16:46]
Zena Kaita
Absolutely. And it's interesting when you talk about the mucking up because I thought this, this stat that their opponents have an average of 9.7 assists per game compared to Oregon's 18.7. And that makes complete sense when you think about if my goal is to muck things up for you, that means you don't feel like you can just pass the ball to anyone or you can't see the opportunities for your teammates. So that means you're going one on one a lot. And that is where you, you know, your assist goes down and then you have to do a lot of one on one scoring. And when you think about these dominant scores. Yes. And Alyssa Peeley can score one on one. Juju Watkins, of course can score one on one. But when you have to do it one on one and it's not coming off of like you said, that motion, that rhythm and it's kind of being forced at the end of a shot clock or forced within an offense, it is a very different game. And we have to put the spotlight on Reagan Beers. When I saw her against Stanford, this is when, you know, Tara Vandiver got the record and Kiki of Raifen went off in that game. If Kiki had not gone off in that game, Oregon absolutely could have won that game and they could have just kept passing the ball inside to Reagan Beers. I don't know why they didn't. I'm not sure why what that was about, but her footwork around the basket, her touch around the basket and also her pullback, being able to step in, reverse pivot, mid range, that like free throw line, extended jump shot that she's got smooth money. And yes, like you said, she is a strong girl. I cannot imagine trying to get around her to try and front in the post or try to deny her in the ball. And I'm wondering, you said everybody's getting better in the system. Do you think that Scott has done a good job of putting enough talent around her to make a deep tournament run?
- [18:30]
Unnamed Analyst
Absolutely. I think given what they do, he's putting the right people in the right places. Like, you don't need 5,000 five stars to get deep in the tournament. Right. You need the right people in the right places. And again, you look back at that 2016 tournament run I don't think you looked at a team that had like, you know, when like Jamie Wisener and Sydney Weiss and like Ruth Hamblin came in. It's not like you looked at that team and thought this is the Final Four roster necessarily, but, like, this is a group like Talia Von Olhoffen, Reagan Beers, these are top 20 recruits. Like, it's not like we're talking that he's like, totally finding diamonds in the rough here. There is a lot of natural talent, but he's also, like Sabrina said, developing players and putting them in the right spot. And I think everyone's buying into this system. Not everyone who goes to college and plays basketball wants to play in this kind of a system. They don't want to play in a defense like this necessarily. There are definitely, you know, potentially more exciting systems to play in, I would say even in the back 12. But, like, when you have players like Reagan, like Tamiya who are buying into, like, we're just going to clean up the defensive glass after playing like a full shot clock of really tough defense and making your life miserable, and then we're not going to give you second chances. Like, they're all just bought into the system. And that ultimately is way more important than stars or sort of name recognition when it comes to March.
- [19:51]
Zena Kaita
Yeah, no, that makes sense. Reagan Beers, though. I can't get over how I feel like I definitely overlooked her. And yes, sixth woman of the year in the PAC 12. But I think a lot of people, even at that Stanford game, you could hear people around being like, where does she come from? And when you look her up, this is a McDonald's all American. Like, this is a Jordan Classic player. Like, she was a top tier recruit coming into Oregon. You're right. A lot of, like, the people that he's put around her are top tier recruits that just kind of faded into the background of the crazy PAC 12 last year and now they've. They've come to the spotlight. So keep your eye on Oregon State, folks. They definitely are making a name for themselves. All right, speaking of spotlight, let's keep it moving. Super Bowl Sunday, at the time that we're recording, this was yesterday. And as boring but then exciting and then boring but exciting as that game was, there was other things on the minds of women's basketball lovers and fans. It was another edition of Super Sunday when there are a million games that you cannot keep track of. But there was one particular game that people had their eye on, and that was a historic, potentially historic making game. And Caitlin Clark trying to beat the top Division 1 women's basketball scoring record. And she came into Sunday's match against Nebraska just 39 points away from becoming that record holder. It was a sold out Pinnacle bank arena, first time actually sold out in 11 years for a women's basketball game. But let's just be real. We know that Nebraska, they got a thing for supporting women's basketball and women's volleyball and women's sports in general. So shout out to the state of Nebraska for what they do there. But sold out. According to Chantel, sold out for six weeks. It was a crazy line around the corner, so I want to first start there. Chantel, you were there at the game. You felt the buzz in the air and we'll get into what actually happened. But even before we get into the game, I felt like watching it from home. You felt as if people were kind of torn between cheering for Nebraska and also cheering for history. Like every time that Caitlin made a bucket, you could hear the oohs and ahhs and knowing that, but she was inching closer and closer and closer and she ended up not making history. Finished eight points away. Shout out to that Nebraska fourth quarter defense. But it felt like there was a, oh, I want to cheer for Caitlyn making history, but I, we want to cheer on Nebraska. What did you feel when you were out there at the game?
- [22:21]
Unnamed Analyst
I mean, it's kind of what we've seen in every Big Ten arena where it's like you have the home team fans, the Iowa fans, which travel really well, and then you just have everyone who's showing up to watch Caitlin. So there's going to be a large Caitlin slash Iowa contingent. But yeah, I think everyone, as this game got closer, everyone sort of knew the potential for her to break the record in this game. And everyone, I'm sure, was tracking it. I mean, obviously I was tracking it because that's my job. But even the fans, you know, they have the scoreboard with all everyone's individual points up there and subtracting from 39 isn't impossible. And so everyone was keeping track of stuff. And it was just really interesting because there were times when, you know, Iowa was up double digits, but it just sort of felt like Nebraska wouldn't go away and like Iowa couldn't just like shake them enough to get really comfortable. Even though ultimately, I think, you know, what we heard from Kate Martin and Caitlin after the game was that, you know, they just got a little too complacent and they were playing not to lose rather than Winning, but it's like Iowa just couldn't shake them. And every time Caitlin missed a shot, Nebraska fans got, like, rowdier and rowdier. And it was like the cheers for when she missed or when she made a mistake were almost as loud as when Nebraska did something good. Like, she had an airball at one point, and it was, like, deafening. Like, these Nebraska really cheering loudly. And in my head, I was like, oh, Nebraska, you don't know what you're asking for right now. And it was like, a few plays later, I forget how many. She, like, sunk a three, like, right there, basically, in front of, like, there had been this old man on the sideline who'd, like, gotten up after she airballed it, and I was like, oh, my gosh. She, like, if she could do what she wanted to do right now, I'm sure she'd go over and, like, talk shit to that guy. But, yeah, it was just a really interesting atmosphere to be in. You know, all of these fans are coming out to watch the Caitlyn show this year, and, you know, they obviously lost, but she still had this incredible performance. It's sort of you. You take both sides of that coin where it's like, she didn't get the record, but she still almost had a triple double. And she became the sixth player in women's Division 1 history to get a thousand assists and the first to have 3,000 points and a thousand assists. And so it's like history was still made. Just not history that people showed up for, I guess.
- [24:33]
Zena Kaita
And that was the point I was going to get to, is that, yes, I don't think a lot of people had even the aspect of assists on their mind. I did not. I didn't even know that she was on the record to do that, too, which is like, you're a prolific scorer and a distributor, playmaker, et cetera. Like, we've known she's capable of this, but didn't know she was just casually tallying these things as well. So the game ended 82, 79. And it was not what you would expect, especially if you caught. If you came in. In the second half watching this game, you were like, okay, they're up double digits going into the fourth quarter. Caitlin Clark is eight points away from making history. Oh, it's going to happen. She's going to do this here in front of. I mean, she's got 10 minutes to do so. And she's. She's good. Like, obviously, Caitlin Clark is capable of doing this. And then Nebraska came in, and two things Happened. Their offense was ice cold. I mean, ice in their veins. Between Jazz Shelley hitting her big time threes and then the young player Logan Misley coming in and hitting her big threes. Unreal. Unreal. And them going on a 10, 0 run and then boxing one defense. Basics, guys. This is basic defense that you do when you have a prolific score on the other side and you want to ensure if they don't want to score, you put your box in one defense. And it's like you would imagine that Iowa has prepared for this, especially when you have a Caitlin Clark on your team. But it worked. Caitlin went 0 for 6 in fourth quarter and could not score, had a chance to tie the game up, take it overtime, hit the front of the rim at the very end, and boom, Nebraska wins the game. So I want to ask you, Sabrina, being able to keep the country's top score in a clutch game to zero points in the fourth quarter is incredibly impressive. And I'm sure every single coach moving forward will have this quarter clipped when they scout for Caitlin Clark moving forward. And Caitlin said they had prepared for it in the past for a boxing one defense, but they just hadn't recently prepped for it. And I imagine they're going to prepare for it moving forward and it'll be better. But if you were a coach, and I love getting your defensive and offensive like, thoughts, but if you were a coach, what defenses would you try to use against a Caitlin Clark and, you know, try and continue to contain her for someone that is not only a prolific scorer but also an elite passer?
- [27:02]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I think that's the problem with Caitlin, right. Is you have to deny her in so many different ways. And I don't think you can just throw one look at her and expect that to work for 40 minutes. You have to continuously vary it up, right, like, yeah, box and one sometimes, but then also throw some blitzes at her out of a pick and roll or like, you know, switch a little so, you know, she can't get into the paint because she's really good at driving into the paint too. So I just don't think you can say like, okay, this is our plan to do one thing against Caitlin Clark. She's gonna figure that out by like 10 minutes in. And then all of a sudden, like, you have to be onto plan B, plan C. You have to have so many options ready to go in order to contain her. We saw this with like South Carolina, like, best events in the country last year. They threw one plan at Caitlyn for 40 minutes and you just see her evolve and dissect it as the game goes on. Which is why I think it was interesting for Nebraska to hold that box and win in their cards until the fourth quarter and be like, okay, this is our go for broke, right? Like, we're down 14 points, we got to do something and, you know, this is our opportunity. And what I thought was particularly funny was they were using the you can't see me signal as their face guarding defense signal, which has multiple connotations. If you're familiar with the Caitlin Clark lore from the 2023 NCAA tournament and the Angel Reese lore, just kudos to Nebraska, you know, for adding an extra layer of drama to all of this because it was noticeable that the players were doing this on the court. So I appreciated that. But anyway, as far as the boxing one goes, I actually thought that Iowa was kind of taking the ball out of Caitlin's hands more than Nebraska was. Like Lisa Bluder had said, our fans at Carver Hawkeye deserve to see Caitlin break the record. And as we mentioned, this game was in Lincoln, Nebraska. So Caitlin Clark is eight points away. And yet you kind of got the feeling that she was passing out of it. Like she didn't quite want to score eight points in the fourth quarter. It felt like, I mean, I obviously wasn't in the building, but like it felt like Iowa was trying to just hold on to this 14 point lead as best as possible without having to waste, you know, a Caitlin bullet. And I think it just took them a little out of their rhythm because their offense is. Caitlin makes the decisions, right? And sometimes that means Caitlin's, you know, throwing the ball into Hannah Stalkey or hitting, you know, Kate Martin and Gabby Marshall on the wings for three pointers. And sometimes that means Caitlin is going into supernova scoring mode, but it's relying on her to make those reads based on what the defense is providing. And at this point it just felt like in the fourth quarter that she was thinking, I can't score eight points. And there was something off with Iowa's rhythm. And Nebraska obviously deserves credit for getting them out of rhythm, but there's something about the scoring record that just adds this extra layer of pressure to the entire situation. And I know Caitlin has said it doesn't affect the way she's approaching the games, yada, yada, yada. I'm not sure I believe that. I think it's going to be a big boon for Iowa once this is over in the next game because they can just start focusing on the Big Ten Title race again. But it was just one of the weirder times I've had watching Iowa because I never expect them to just bog down like that offensively. Like, yeah, sometimes they can't guard to save their lives. And that's an inherent problem with the Iowa lineup. But for them not be able to score, like, they only had 10 points in that fourth quarter. It's the first time Caitlin's ever played an entire fourth quarter and not scored like 124 games. For her not to do that, that's pretty historic event in and of itself. Just so many conflicting factors in this fourth quarter. I want to give the appropriate credit to the Cornhuskers, but it was just very, very weird Iowa performance.
- [30:16]
Unnamed Analyst
I mean, I think there was definitely that mentality. And I honestly, I didn't think so much late that she was deferring so much as early. Like, early on, I thought there were maybe a few opportunities where she like dished it off. Where I was like, no, you could have gone up with that type of a thing. I didn't feel as much late. And honestly, as it got like, tighter late, I was thinking like, knowing Caitlyn, having covered her the last four years and knowing as much as we do, like, this is someone who genuinely hates losing so much that I do believe her when she, like, I think she would have gone off for 60 to, like, you know, win a game. Like, I think she would do anything to win a game. But it was early on and. But then you looked at the players around her. Like, Kate Martin had several travels, which is very uncharacteristic of like, one of the steadiest players in the Big Ten. There were players, like, whether it was them being impacted by the record as a team, not so much just Caitlyn. Like, I think a lot of this are people saying, like, oh, Caitlin wanted to get to 39. You know, I think this is something the whole team is aware of. Maybe that was it. Maybe it was just like what they said, that they were playing not to lose, which I think that's what we saw them do. I was at their best when they're just like playing free and sharing the ball and having fun. And it doesn't help when, you know, Kate Martin, your sixth year player, has seven turnovers and Gabby Marshall isn't hitting from range. Like, all of these other pieces need to work in conjunction with Caitlin. And having now seen the last two Iowa games. This is like when Ben and Sabrina and I chat while we're watching games and stuff in Xenonosis too. We have a group podcast text message. We're always texting about players. Molly Davis is a player who often comes up when we're talking about Iowa simply because we often bring up her headband. But I will say that after watching the last two games, she's had an illness. She didn't practice last Wednesday ahead of the Penn State game. I feel like we've maybe underestimated how important she is to just sort of the ball movement and flow and veteran leadership of this team. A lot about her headband and maybe not enough about that other aspect of her being able to contribute, like six to eight points and two to three assists and just being another ball handler out there who can keep the flow of the offense moving. And having now seen two games where she really didn't play, you know, I think she played a few minutes in each and Lisa Bl or basically said, you know, she wasn't able to go. But I just feel like that's another aspect here where it's like, you know, historically the Hawkeyes do not win games when Caitlin has to score more than 40 points. Like, that is just a fact. And so the people around her need to also be good. And I think that was almost more of a factor against Nebraska than anything else because it really did look like Caitlin was doing everything she could, even defensively. I mean, I think she had four steals and two blocks, which is like a great defensive performance all around for Iowa. Right. Like so. And, you know, Hannah Stolke, I think, finished with 15 after, you know, a few days after having 46, 47. I thought that was interesting. And then the only other point I was going to make that you were talking about the defense. One of the things Nebraska coach Amy Williams said that I thought was really interesting and important to highlight about Caitlin's game that we probably don't highlight enough is just her conditioning that not only do you need sort of like a defensive plan, A, B and C, but she's so well conditioned and she runs people so well that you also need to have, like, three different defenders that are sort of fresh enough to chase her for as long as she's going to be chased. You know, her conditioning is just at another level. One of the best in the country for sure. And so that I thought was really interesting, so that, you know, again, they pulled us out in the fourth quarter and, you know, had the legs to do it. I thought it was so impressive.
- [33:58]
Zena Kaita
It's funny, the Big Ten network actually did some sort of, like, segment on having some former High school basketball player go through a conditioning session, basically acting like he was Caitlin Clark in a practice and said, oh, he's so tired. And I'm like, I know what you guys were trying to do in trying to, like, show that she's really well conditioned. And this is actually kind of insulting. I don't know. I wasn't feeling.
- [34:23]
Unnamed Analyst
It feels like there's another way to do that.
- [34:25]
Zena Kaita
I know. I was like, I think there's enough technology out there where you can have a more like, bonafide way to show that this woman is very conditioned, rather than just showing some guy tired at practice and then having the announcers be like, oh, man, he was really tired the next day. Yeah, he hasn't played since high school. So maybe that's why. Anyhoo, yes, that's a really great point. There's so many different ways, as you said, Sabrina, that she will deny you. She'll deny you from a perspective of how she shoots. She'll deny you from the perspective of how she passes. And Chantel, she'll deny you from the perspective of how just how long she lasts. When you are absolutely fatigued and you think you've got her, she's just like, oh, you know what? I got a little bit more in the tank, but I want to close this with saying, Nebraska, you did your thing. Not only did you play under the pressure of not wanting to lose this game, it also was the pressure of not letting Caitlin Clark come into your arena and make history. And so them coming back from a deficit, them having that amazing fourth quarter. And again, Logan Nisli, Natalie Potts, freshmen coming in, having, you know, difference making fourth quarters, like, huge, huge, huge. And then, of course, Jaz Shelley leading the team with 23 points. Yeah. Great job, Nebraska. All right, now let's talk a little bit about some pro ball and Team USA. The Parisian Olympics are coming up this summer, and TM USA is just, you know, preparing, getting ready. The 2024 FIBA Women's Olympic qualifying Tournament was this past weekend in Antwerp, Belgium, and Team USA has officially punched their ticket. They went 30 in the weekend, and this is what they do, you know, three zero. Team USA Women's basketball, like, not a surprising combination. But that first game was not indicative of what Team USA has been for the last decade, more than decade. It's just who they've been for a very, very long time. And so I don't want to get into the nitty gritty of all three games because the last two were just like complete blowouts. But I do have some takeaways that I wanted to discuss. The first is regarding a particular player called Nafisa Collier. And, man, when you think about where Nafisa was just one Olympics ago, she is a gold. Olympic gold medalist. She. She went and did the thing, but in the 2020 Olympics, she averaged 3.8 minutes per game and she scored five points total. Okay. In this qualifying tournament this time around, obviously a lot more minutes played. Not only in the first game. She came off the bench. Came off the bench and helped the US stay in the game against Belgium. Had 10 points in the fourth quarter, ended up scoring 22 points in that first game, I believe, or 23. And then the next two games she started. She averaged 19 points over the three games, started two games, and it was a complete turnaround. And let's just be real. If the US did not have Nafisa Collier, Belgium probably would have won that game with Nafeesa. Sabrina, I'll start with you. Where did you see the most improvement in her game? What was the most impactful? Aspect?
- [37:40]
Chantelle Jennings
You know, I think with Nafisa, it's not so much that she's improved over these last three years. It's just the opportunity has grown. Like, you think about the 2021 Olympic team. She's behind Tina Charles and Asia Wilson and Brittney Griner and Sylvia Fowles in that big rotation. So just where are the minutes supposed to come from? Right? Like, even with USA starting three bigs and Stewie in Asia and Brittney Griner, like, you've got fouls and Charles coming off the bench, there's just no time for her, right? And, like, that's why USA always brings the young players in early, so they get a taste of it, and then when it's their time to play, they're ready for the moment because nothing about the stage overwhelms them. Right? So I think part of it is just she's been through the system. She knows, like, she's not going to be that bench player this time around. She's going to be a featured part of the team. And I think Sheryl Reeve being the head coach has a lot to do with it, because who knows better than Cheryl Reeve how to put Nafisa Collier into the spots that are going to work best for her, right? So part of it's just opportunity, you know, being really comfortable with the system. And then I think she's just become a more effective player around the basket. Like, her economy of movement just makes so much sense. Like, she doesn't have any wasted steps when she's trying to get, you know, her post moves. And just everything is very, very fast, very clean. And you saw a lot of that, particularly in that second half against Belgium. Should be noted that, like, this tournament meant literally nothing for the USA by virtue of winning the World cup in 2022. They've already qualified for the Olympics. They're just here to test some things out, you know, see what lineups work. I think that's why, like, Asia Wilson wasn't there, because obviously Asia Wilson is going to be a 2024 Olympian, but she had a book tour to go on and thus was not in Antwerp for this particular set of games. And Brittney Griner, obviously not there. Chelsea Gray still rehabbing that injury that cost her Game 4 of the WNBA Finals. So the roster is going to look very different going forward. But I think Nafisa Collier being a big part of it is not going to change because she was a top five MVP candidate in the WNBA this year. She was first team, all wnba. You know, again, her head coach. There's a level of familiarity there. She's putting her time with Team usa. I don't know if she's going to be starting because again, Stewie, Asia, it's a hard duo to break in front of, but I think at the very least, she's like the most important six woman in internationally because there's so many things that she can do as a rebounder, as a scorer that the USA really needs, especially against bigger opponents.
- [39:52]
Zena Kaita
I love economy of movement.
- [39:54]
Unnamed Analyst
Ooh. I say the same thing. I was like, dang, girl, you talk about basketball. I learned so much economy of movement.
- [40:03]
Zena Kaita
I'm stuck on that, right? And it's just so crazy because that is exactly right. You think about the best basketball players and you think about the people that are goats. Like, you think about a Kobe. And even now in women's basketball, you think about Juju Watkins, right? You think about Maya Moore back in the day. Economy of movement. These are people who every single step, every single move, there was a move and a counter move. They were economical with what they decided to do on the floor. Ooh, Sabrina, girl, I'm over here snapping my fingers. That's a word. Economy of movement.
- [40:35]
Unnamed Analyst
Can we just end the pod now?
- [40:37]
Zena Kaita
I'm like, mike dropped. Okay, that is amazing. And that's exactly what is so apparent with Nafeesa Collier's game. She doesn't look like she's working hard out there, but we know she is. Like, her game Looks so easy. And she's not able. It's not just that, you know, her mid range, she goes in there and gets some contact too, which is not easy to do. And you know, Nafisa Collier has had back problems in the past. Even during the finals last year, you could see her kind of wincing, trying to get into the paint. And it's great to be able to see her get her movement back, get her quick step back and again just be oh so compact as she gets into the paint or wherever she's moving on the floor and economy of movement, that is. That's a note. I will be using that moving forward. Thank you, Sabrina. And she wasn't the only one that shined though during these, these games. Ryan Howard and Sabrina, you just mentioned about the young players getting an opportunity on this stage. Howard took advantage of her, her time on the court. I mean, that last game against Senegal, in 15 minutes, this young woman had 25 points. Talk about efficiency. I just wanted to ask, like, you know, what you guys thought about her game coming out on the first for the first time on this stage and knowing that this roster is not set. Do you think that she'll still have the ability to make this sort of impact once the roster is finalized, AKA you know, will she find a spot on this team?
- [41:57]
Unnamed Analyst
I mean, I think the same issue is ahead of Ryan that is ahead of every young player that was ahead of Nafisa four years ago, three years ago. It's that the talent pool for the US Is so good and so deep and so wide. There's only 12 spots. Right. And is one of those going to go to Ryan Howard as one of the young players on this team when you're also potentially on the other end of that? One of those spots is going to a relatively older player potentially in Diana Taurasi. And so I think that balance of the roster is going to be really interesting moving forward. I thought it was great that she had this international experience, that she had success on the international stage. I don't necessarily know if there is space for her on the roster in Paris, given what they will need at the guard spot and sort of the guards that appear to be ahead of her at this point and just how Cheryl Reeve is, you know, going to want to put together this roster and it'll be. The committee obviously is going to be the final decision makers. But, you know, I think what's different about Team USA versus other national teams is that they're obviously looking for the best players, but also the players that are playing the best together. You know, all of these other international teams spend more time together overall than the US Team. Like Team USA doesn't have a ton of time together before the Olympics, but, you know, trying to find the players that mesh the best together. And so I think because of that, you know, we're going to see a high aces presence on this roster. I think not just because they're the best players, but because it's also like, you know, you can, you can put four of those players on the floor together and you've got some instant offense and defense and so don't necessarily see there being a spot for Ryan on this team this summer. But maybe Sabrina, you disagree with me on that.
- [43:38]
Chantelle Jennings
It's a shame because I love Rein Howard's game. It's so smooth. She's kind of like the evolution of what we're seeing with Juju in the college game. Just these big guards with ball handling ability and she can play anywhere from one to four kind of. She has just the skill set to fill every single one of those roles. And she has the USA experience too. She's played at the youth levels, she's put in her time. If there weren't a six time Olympian making her way onto this roster, I feel like Ryan would have a much better chance. And by the way, like, I don't mean this to like disparage Diana Tarazzi, but it looked like she hadn't played a game that mattered in like 19 months because that was a rough showing against Belgium.
- [44:17]
Zena Kaita
I wanted to ask y'all about that because there's a question of the youth versus the quote veterans experienced. And when you look at the start of that Belgium game versus the start of Senegal and Nigeria, particularly. No, actually particularly Nigeria. When coach Cheryl Reeves put the Youngins out there, she put Ariel Atkins out there with Jackie Young and she put out, you know, if he's a Collier Jewel Lloyd, like there was a lot younger players out there, different start and they started strong and Aaliyah Boston was out there. I mean, it was like a fun sped up game versus the first two quarters of that Belgium game. USA was down. It was like exactly as you said. Diana Taurasi had some cobwebs to shake off. If you want to share your thoughts, I would not be opposed.
- [45:00]
Chantelle Jennings
Let's be clear. If Diana Tarazi wants to play on the Olympic team, she will be playing on the Olympic team. If she wants to play on the LA Olympic team, she will be playing on the LA Olympic team in 2028. Okay, that's just how this works when you put in the equity that you have. Usa. All right. I do think that it's probably time for her to have a reduced role on the national team. Like, maybe you start Sabrina or you start Jewel or, you know, whoever. I think Jewel was already starting, but you start like a Plum or a Sabrina in that two guard spotter. But, yeah, I do think there's just so much young talents on Team usa. Like, you saw it with Ryan. You saw it with all the people who are not even on this team right now. Like, Arike is not in this pool. She wasn't in this roster, and she'll be contending for the Olympic pool. Like, there are younger guards who have yet to be drafted by the WNBA who might even potentially be in this pool. So there's just a lot of options. And I think even if you want to have the veteran cornerstone piece of your culture carrying the torch from 2004, whatever, it's not like the USA needs 12 players to go up against everybody else in the world. But at the very least, let's work on the rotations. That's all I'm asking.
- [46:09]
Zena Kaita
And just to clear up the starting five for the Nigerian team, I messed up. Jewel Wood was not a part of it. It was Kelsey Plum, Ariel Atkins, Nafisa Collier, Jackie Young, and Aaliyah Boston. And they were fun. They came straight out running. And yeah, there is something to be said about veteran players taking a backseat. I don't think that Jan Taurasi will ever do so again. Like you said, the equity that she's put in and, you know, she's. At the end of the day, she's a baller. Like, I think back to the game when they won, you know, in 2021, the Olympics. And yes, that was the 2020 Olympic team. But because of the pandemic played in 2021, I mean, Diana had like eight assists in that game. She's still a baller. Like, she's still going to do the things they need in order to win. So definitely going to be interesting.
- [46:54]
Chantelle Jennings
And it may have sounded like I was joking when I said she hasn't played a meaningful game in 19 months. So I don't think she's actually played a meaningful game in 19 months. Like, Phoenix's last season was pretty depressing from the start. They went 9 and 31 in the WNBA. Like, I think the last time Diana really brought it was the game where she scored 10,000, you know, career WNBA points. So I fully expect her to be in better form in July, August, when she's gone through, you know, a WNBA training camp and actually played meaningful games for a little while. So this is not what I think Tarazi is going to look like in Paris. But I also think that she's. There's a reasonable argument to be made that she's not going to be as good as any of those guards, even in peak form.
- [47:31]
Unnamed Analyst
But I think also sort of the argument that Team USA will make is that, you know, she is that obviously the piece reaching back to 2004, but within, you know, you talk to anyone within Team USA and it's sort of like the torch bearers forward, moving forward, the culture bringing along the young people, the importance of, like, setting the tone. And for Team USA right now, their chosen person to do that is Diana. And so, you know, I think looking in that committee room, you have people who understand her intensity and understand how much Team USA values that sort of culture carrier. Like they've had it on every roster moving forward since that 96 Olympic team when this streak started. But I do feel like we kind of have to acknowledge, like, I think Belgium is going to be Team USA's biggest competition in Paris. Like, they were out there starting one in five. And I'm not saying that necessarily the streak is going to come to an end in Paris, but I would say that there's again, looking back at sort of how much time this Belgian team specifically has spent together over like literally almost the last decade. These players coming up in the youth system together and not having so much of sort of a mishmash of players coming in and only having, you know, a three day training camp here and a three day training camp here. Like Team USA isn't going to have a lot of time together. Before the Olympics, they had this camp in New York, they went to Antwerp. They'll get together again in the spring, the roster will be named, and then the WNBA season is going to start and they'll get together at All Star and then they're going to go to the Olympics. And so it's not like there's a ton of time to build this cohesion. And I think early on against Belgium, there were some of those turnovers and missed passes and just miscommunications that felt really obvious where, you know, Cheryl Reeve will have time to fix this, but it's not necessarily going to be time on the court with these players. And so I think this is going to be a really interesting Olympic Games because the quality of women's basketball has risen across the World. And I think we're seeing national teams elsewhere that have invested in their teams and invested in their teams, like, in using these teams together. So it should be. It'll be an interesting games.
- [49:36]
Chantelle Jennings
I'll feel a lot better about the USA when they have their starting 1 in 5. Give me Asia Wilson against anybody else.
- [49:42]
Zena Kaita
Give me Chelsea Gray. Okay. I'm like, yeah, it's. It's true. They. Without the two of them, it was a little bit like, is this a scare or is this a no? It's just clearly not. This is not what we saw back in 2021. This is not the best of the best. We'll see. It was cool to see Emma Maceman and doing her thing. Also, by the way, she didn't play in 2023, but I do remember her playing in 2022 and everyone calling her Emma Miesemann. It's Maceman. If you're a true Dutch person, it's Maceman. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Okay. Anyhow, one last thing before we get out. I just want to just touch on this game. UConn, South Carolina, it was a blowout. Okay. I don't have a ton to say about this game, but, you know, obviously, South Carolina did their thing. I'm not surprised. Camila Cardoso was playing for Brazil, so they didn't even have her inside. You know what, Sabrina Chantel, y'all tell me what you think about this game. Cause I was just like, that game was very uneventful, and it wasn't too surprising for me. But what were your thoughts?
- [50:42]
Chantelle Jennings
So we mentioned the Olympic qualifying tournaments and South Carolina's Camila Cardoso playing for Team Brazil. Not available this week for South Carolina because she's in Brazil. And that means that South Carolina just pulls into its unending pile of depth off the bench. Bringing Ashlyn Watkins in to start at center. Earning a new nickname this week. I don't know if it's been a nickname or I just learned of it on ESPN this week. But Ashlyn Swatkins, because of all of the blocks she was collecting, I do like that.
- [51:07]
Unnamed Analyst
It's good.
- [51:08]
Zena Kaita
Their defense was crazy. Yes.
- [51:10]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. It is unfair how much talent South Carolina has. It is truly unfair. Like, we're looking at all these other teams cobbling together seven player rotations. You know, one player goes out, all of a sudden the entire balance of their, you know, ecosystem has shifted. Like we mentioned, you know, Oregon State, you don't necessarily have to have 5,000 five star recruits to put together a system that Works Sometimes you do just have 5,000 five star recruits, and it all still works together and they all get to play and they all have a great time doing it. I don't know how Don Staley has maintained so much happiness, for lack of a better word, in South Carolina. I can only think of one player, Saniya Rivers, who's transferred out of there, you know, to get a bigger role. Everybody else just seems to wait their turn, and eventually the playing time comes for them. I don't even know, like, who to start with on South Carolina. Tina powpow. Five threes. Like, yeah, sure. Like, she was planning to go to TCU this off season and found out that South Carolina was looking for a point guard and showed up, and all of a sudden, yeah, number one offense. I'm sorry, Iowa still holds number one offense in the country, but South Carolina is right behind them at number two. You've got Raven Johnson casually running the offense. You know, no big deal. Brie hall draining threes, guarding the opposing team's best perimeter player. Like, did you have fun with that? Paige Becker is like. It seemed like it was a really difficult time with Brihall guard Ashlyn Watkins. I think Chloe shot about. Yeah, Chloe kits, you know, just.
- [52:26]
Zena Kaita
It's just crazy.
- [52:27]
Chantelle Jennings
So many. So many options, you know, and if something isn't working, we bring in my Alicia Full Wiley off the bench. If someone else isn't working, like, here's Tessa Johnson to hit two threes off the bench for.
- [52:37]
Unnamed Analyst
You know, Sabrina, I think your power rankings said it perfectly where you said I. It's hard to pick the number two team in the country right now because the number two team in the country is sitting on South Carolina's bench.
- [52:47]
Chantelle Jennings
That's the one. Yeah.
- [52:48]
Unnamed Analyst
That's the truth.
- [52:49]
Zena Kaita
Quite literally. Quite literally. That's crazy.
- [52:51]
Unnamed Analyst
Put South Carolina's 6 through 10 on the floor and just, you know, give them another one seed. Like, go for it.
- [52:59]
Zena Kaita
It's crazy.
- [53:00]
Chantelle Jennings
I keep waiting for somebody to really challenge South Carolina, and it hasn't happened since. They're like tobacco road trip. Like, Duke had a lead in the second half, North Carolina had a lead in the second half, and they went with two entirely different closing lineups in those two games to win those games. And ever since, the SEC has just been their personal little playground. I mean, they had that comeback against LSU, which I think LSU's kind of been struggling since then, too, just to put together a convincing win ever since the emotional momentum of that game. But, yeah, it's just so strange to me to Think that there's so much parity throughout college basketball. Like, any given night, Oregon State's playing usc. Like, who's going to win conferences all around the country for all of that to exist. And then a separate plane of South Carolina where it's like, no, we don't do mistakes. We don't do off nights. We just consistently win and win and win. It's very impressive. Very impressive.
- [53:49]
Unnamed Analyst
Yeah. The whole South Carolina or the field question right now feels pretty easy.
- [53:53]
Zena Kaita
Yeah. When you mentioned Sabrina, you're waiting for someone to truly challenge South Carolina, we started the conversation with Oregon State and you looked at their pre conference season schedule and yeah, they didn't play a bunch of big names. South Carolina was just the opposite. Like, their out of conference schedule was insane in terms of who they're going up against. They literally went through March Madness tournament last year and said, boop, boop, boop. Put that on my calendar. It really speaks to. You cannot claim, like, oh, they have. They haven't been up against anybody. No, they've been up against the best of the best. And they found a way to either blow them out like they did UConn on Sunday, or if they got down, have the resiliency to come back. And that is a true testament to one Don Staley. Like, ma'am, her coaching ability, her adaptability, her ability to get everyone to buy in. I mean, there's so many different ways that she has won games this year, and it has been from whether it's an X's and O's adjustment. But also there's been elements of personality, like being able to manage the personalities on her team. When she had Malaysia Folweile come in at the very end of that UNC game and had Tahina powpow sit down and how she managed that, that stuff that. If we're talking about the WNBA level, the NBA level, like, that is a. A storyline in itself because that requires one of your best players to have enough humility to be like, you know what, let's give this to a freshman to close this very big game out. There's so many different dimensions to Dawn Staley's ability to coach that it makes sense why they're number one, because you can have a ton of talent and still not be able to manage them to be this efficient and then be this successful. So shout out to dawn as well.
- [55:36]
Unnamed Analyst
Yeah, I think you touched on Tahina, like, the selfless leadership. And I think everyone sort of leads in their own way. And you do see players like Bri hall who've, like, waited their turn and you know, whether that was like Leticia Amihir last year, like, you know, watching these players come through the system, you know, to get drafted without, like, ever starting because they've been in a system where they've learned so well how to play this game, you know, like, yeah, I think she has built up enough of a reputation of, you know, building teams and programs and players that there is a level of trust in that program that at this current state in women's college basketball is unmatched. And so that Tahina story with Malaysia is like one of my favorites of the season because this is someone who, you know, like Sabrina said was headed to tcu. And then suddenly dawn calls and it's like a perfect fit, both who she is as a person and a leader and a player and how she's elevated South Carolina entirely this season.
- [56:32]
Zena Kaita
Agreed. All right, guys, we have gone so long. There were so much things that we had to talk about. I'm going to quickly, I don't have too many games. I'm just going to give you just a few that are on my roster for set your screens again. This is our segment where we tell you where we think you should set your screens this week because that's where we're going to be setting our screens. So just a few games on our list here for me, number six, NC State on Thursday is going to number 16, Notre Dame. All season long, the ACC has been surreal and this is going to be a big time matchup again in the acc. Really excited. We're actually going to be speaking to Hannah Hidalgo very soon on Athletic All Access. So definitely be on the lookout for that pod, but be on the lookout for what she does against NC State. Sinai Rivers, we just spoke about her. Just they have a dog of a backcourt. So very, very fun to see how Hannah Hildal goes. Defense goes up against them and then another game looking forward to in the PAC 12, the mountain states go up against each other. Number eight, Colorado will be at number 22, Utah on Friday. Both of them just suffering losses, of course against Oregon State as we started the pod. So I'm sure they'll be. They got some games in between, but they'll definitely be looking forward to trying. Utah trying to take down number eight, Colorado. And then Oregon State will be going up against number nine, UCLA. So another big PAC 12 game. We'll see if Oregon State can continue their streak of breaking off the top teams in the PAC 12. And then I'm trying to see if there's anything else. Keep an eye on Gonzaga and Vanderbilt. Gonzaga's gonna play a pretty relatively quote easy game that they got a game at Pacific on Saturday. But just start looking at them because Vanderbilt's had some big time wins throughout this season and Gonzaga's creeping up the rankings. They're at number 17 right now in country, so definitely looking out for them. And I'll be looking at Princeton Yale on Saturday. Just because I'm an alum. I'm not going to say what I expect out of that game, but just I just expect to be watching that game. That'll be where I'll be setting my screen. And then last but not least, Virginia Tech Kitley going up against number 18, Louisville on Sunday. Another big ACC showdown. I'll be setting my screen to that all right folks, that's enough. We've talked enough today. Appreciate Chantelle and Sabrina coming through breaking all of that down. Thank you so much for listening again. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your pods. We've got another big time Athletic All Access this week. You won't want to miss it. Until then, I'm Zena Kaita encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning, keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to continue to grow it. All right guys, talk to you soon.
- [59:22]
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- [59:48]
Aura Advertiser
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- [60:41]
Zena Kaita
Acast powers the world's best podcasts.
- [60:45]
Chantelle Jennings
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [60:49]
Marc Maron
Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal. Yeah. I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
- [61:11]
Aura Advertiser
Are you afraid of it?
- [61:12]
Marc Maron
Of death?
- [61:13]
Unnamed Analyst
Well, I don't.
- [61:13]
Marc Maron
I think about it all the time.
- [61:15]
Zena Kaita
How are we here already?
- [61:16]
Marc Maron
Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus.
- [61:30]
Chantelle Jennings
Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.