Aces Cement Dynasty with Championship Sweep

Summary

Podcast Summary: No Offseason – "Aces Cement Dynasty with Championship Sweep"

Date: October 11, 2025
Panel: Ben Pickman (host), Sabrina Merchant, Marcus Thompson

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Episode Overview

This episode of "No Offseason" recaps the conclusion of the 2025 WNBA Finals, in which the Las Vegas Aces swept the Phoenix Mercury to secure their third championship in four years. The hosts break down the games, spotlight the Aces' dominance (led by two-time Finals MVP A’ja Wilson), analyze the historical significance of the team, and reflect on both the Mercury’s future and memorable moments from the series. The panel also addresses themes of parity in the league, controversial officiating, and emotional post-game scenes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Aces' Dominance and Dynasty Status

• Aces sweep Mercury: Las Vegas controlled the final game (Game 4, 97–86) and the series throughout, never letting the Mercury recover after a pivotal Game 1 loss.

• A’ja Wilson’s Legacy: Wilson earns her second Finals MVP, anchoring both offense and defense. The panel describes her as a “once-in-a-generation” talent who has “taken the mantle from Stewart and run with it” (Sabrina Merchant, 09:29).

  “To me, we're looking at—they're in the conversation for the greatest core group in WNBA history.”
  – Marcus Thompson [03:34]

• Depth and Versatility: The Aces’ ability to win in multiple ways, using different players, was unmatched. Others—Evans, Lloyd, Young, Gray—all stepped up at key moments.

  “The other takeaway we underestimated...was just how many weapons the Aces have.”
  – Ben Pickman [06:01]

2. Why Phoenix Came Up Short

• Missed Opportunity in Game 1: Emphasis on Mercury’s need to win Game 1 with a rest advantage; after letting it slip, they never recovered (Sabrina Merchant, [03:53]).

• Injuries & Precarious Depth: Satu Sabally’s concussion in Game 4 left Phoenix shorthanded against the Aces’ multifaceted attack.

• Defensive Struggles: Despite entering as the playoffs’ best defensive team, the Mercury were unable to match up with the Aces’ small yet dynamic lineups.

  “Phoenix just was not good enough defensively at all in this series. I think the Aces scored at least 20 points in 14 of the 16 quarters...”
  – Sabrina Merchant [06:40]

3. Historical Perspective: Is This the Greatest WNBA Team?

• Comparisons to Past Dynasties: References to Houston Comets, Minnesota Lynx; acknowledgment that the league is “much stronger and deeper now.”

• A’ja Wilson’s Uniqueness: Compared to Brianna Stewart but described as “a better shooter and rim protector” (Sabrina Merchant, 09:29).

• Dominance over Peers: Wilson stands alone—“no number two, really” (Marcus Thompson, [09:46]).

  “Asia’s Everest. There's no one around her.”
  – Sabrina Merchant [10:24]

4. The Aces’ Difficult Season & League Parity

• Midseason struggle, late surge: The Aces went 14–14 in their first 28 games, finished 25–3 over their last 28 games ([13:39]).
• Close calls in earlier rounds: Came close to elimination against Seattle and Indiana.
• Growing league parity: Multiple lower seeds (Seattle, Indiana) pushed top seeds to the limit; anticipation that “any combination” of top teams could meet in the Finals in coming years.

5. Officiating and Commissioner Criticism

• Nate Tibbetts Ejection: Mercury coach received two technicals and an ejection in Game 4, seen as a “lame” decision but emblematic of the season’s officiating issues ([18:37]).

• Commissioner Kathy Engelbert Booed: During the trophy ceremonies, Engelbert was loudly booed by fans multiple times—a reflection of player-fan solidarity and dissatisfaction with league leadership on officiating and other matters ([20:11]-[22:33]).

  “Getting booed three times in one kind of ceremony... That's just sports history, really.”
  – Marcus Thompson [22:25]

6. Phoenix Mercury’s Road Ahead

• Needs Identified: More secondary ball handling, bench depth, and versatile two-way players.

• Roster discussion: Noted reliance on Alyssa Thomas; depth issues at center and lack of offensive punch off the bench (Sabrina Merchant, [28:23]).

• Front-office vision: Phoenix GM Nick Uren, formerly with NBA’s Warriors, will look to reshape roster amid a crucial free agency period ([26:48]).

  “They have a lot of work to do if they want to get back to this point.”
  – Ben Pickman [29:10]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Asia Wilson’s Reflection on Mistake and Growth

  “As she was reflecting…how much that moment of dropping that pass just was like eating at her—that she needed to get it back… it wasn’t just the offensive end. She knew, either I’m gonna get a basket…or I’m going to win it on the defensive end.”
  – Ben Pickman [12:25]

• On the Essence of the Dynasty

  "If you look at the total package, they were going to figure it out anyway, right? No matter who it was."
  – Marcus Thompson [14:16]

• On Fan Reaction to Commissioner Engelbert

  "Deafening boos for Kathy Engelbert. I could not hear what she said… In an away arena, for the Las Vegas Aces…that's just… sports history, really."
  – Sabrina Merchant / Marcus Thompson [20:40], [22:25]

• Post-game Celebration: Heartfelt Scenes

  “[Bam Adebayo] films the whole post game... Asia Wilson falls into his arms, saying ‘thank you for believing in me.’ That’s the stuff that championship moments are made of.”
  – Marcus Thompson [33:04]

  “[Asia Wilson] had this bright pink tambourine...and everywhere you went in the Aces post-game celebration, you just heard that tambourine rattling and you knew, like, there was greatness playing instrument, playing her team out for the season.”
  – Ben Pickman [33:40]

• Team & Community Acknowledgment

  "I want to thank everybody at Michelob Ultra Arena and the Mortgage Matchup Center who came up and said hi to us. It's so nice… it means the world."
  – Sabrina Merchant [34:13]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening Finals Recap & Aces' Sweep: [01:50–03:10]
• Game/Series Turning Point – Game 1: [03:53–04:18]
• Aces’ Depth and Offensive Firepower: [06:01–06:40]
• Comparing WNBA Dynasties & Asia Wilson’s Greatness: [07:14–09:46]
• Season Parity and Aces’ Rocky Road: [13:39–15:48]
• Coaching Ejection & Officiating Issues: [17:04–19:42]
• Commissioner Booed at Trophy Ceremony: [20:11–22:25]
• Phoenix’s Roster Construction Needs: [26:48–30:56]
• Most Memorable Series Moments: [31:08–34:13]
• Fan Appreciation & Community: [34:13–34:44]

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Episode Tone

Conversational, insightful, a blend of humor and analysis. The hosts’ camaraderie is evident, as is their respect for both the gravity and the joy of the WNBA Finals and league community.

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Listen If You Want To Hear About:

• What cements a WNBA dynasty in the current era
• How A’ja Wilson’s skill set is re-defining the big role
• Why the Aces’ depth and mentality outclassed the Mercury
• Front-office and roster-building decisions for Phoenix
• League-wide trends in parity & growth—and ongoing officiating issues
• Behind-the-scenes glimpses: from emotional celebrations to iconic post-game bloopers

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This episode of No Offseason captures a historic championship, honors the stars and the journey, and looks ahead to a future where the bar keeps rising in women’s basketball.

Transcript

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[Ben Pickman]

Hello everyone and welcome to no off season. I'm Ben Pickman.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm Sabrina Merchant and today on the.

[Ben Pickman]

Show the WNBA Finals. The 2025 WNBA Finals are officially over. The Las Vegas AC are your champions for the third time in four years having swept the Phoenix Mercury winning game for 97 86. This is our final on court post finals episode and Sabrina, we are joined by the third member of our team who's been riding with us all series long, Marcus Thompson. Marcus, how are you doing after this game for series clincher, I just want.

[Marcus Thompson]

To know why you got I didn't get to say my name. It felt like I wanted to be like and I'm Marcus.

[Ben Pickman]

Thompson stepped in.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Marcus, honestly the opening was there. You should have just gone for that's on you.

[Marcus Thompson]

Ben was in his bag though. I didn't want to interrupt Ben's bag. He was cooking. Hey, I'm good I'm excellent. This thing is over. We're not going back to Vegas.

[Sabrina Merchant]

We're not going back.

[Ben Pickman]

I was just trying to cook as much as Azer Wilson did throughout this series. Marcus, the finals MVP for the second time in her career. Yeah, we'll get into this press conference moment.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Who took a seat next to Ben Pickman during the postgame press conference.

[Ben Pickman]

We will get into all of that, Sabrina, throughout the course of this post final show. But let's start with the big picture. As I said, Aces are the champions here. 3rd in 4 years. Asia 2 time finals MVP Becky Hammond, another title for her. Just what sticks out in your mind as you reflect on game four and the series more broadly.

[Marcus Thompson]

This feels like a microcosm of the season or like an embodiment. Like, I can't believe the team we just watched destroy the Mercury is the same team we watched against the Fever. But it was like fitting for the season. They were very middle then they go 16, 16 in a row and you're like, oh yeah, this is that team. And you're reminded then they kind of mess with their food again and it's.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Like Seattle and Indiana.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, yeah, this is that. This is that team we've got. We've gotten to the point where it's now undeniable. They were so good that the Mercury looks mediocre. And that's not a mediocre Mercury team. Like that was good. So to me, we're looking at they're in a conversation for like the greatest core group in WNBA history.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean to me it's not really about game four. Like the series was lost in game one. I don't think we put enough of an emphasis on it back then. Like the Mercury had to come in and steal that game because they had the rest advantage. When you're the road team coming in, you got to take game one and they had it right there. Right. You know, Marcus has talked about that. Dejuana Bonner three pointer at the end of game one. Obviously the Alyssa Thomas free throws at the end of game one just that was the opportunity there for the taking and they just were never able to recover from that.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, it came down to game one and game three were your nail biting finishes. And we should say it took Phoenix having this almost historic comeback in game three to even make it close. And in game four they were playing without Satus Abli who, you know, she was out with a concussion and Las Vegas controlled the game from the very beginning. And every single moment that it seemed like Phoenix could maybe, maybe eek back in and maybe replicate some of the magic that they had in game four. Like, the Aces just made big play after big play. It was Asia getting baskets. It was the Aces defense forcing turnovers or forcing stops. It was Phoenix just being a little sloppy on the offensive end. Time and time again, we just saw the Aces handle the details so well in this series. We talked about it in game one and we've talked about it throughout. And I think that is really where the experience of this team, the Las Vegas Aces, that is really shown through. They just handled all the details to near perfection or as close as you can come in a final series like this.

[Marcus Thompson]

You know what's crazy? It was fun too. Like, they're, They're. They're an exciting team. The shot making, shot making so good. I mean, it really, it really broke the Mercury, right? It really broke them. Every run they went on, somebody responded to, not, I thought, just because, you know, I feel like sports hates journalists. Right. And the worst possible outcome for us was going to happen. I thought Phoenix would come in here, play free, nothing to lose, hit 15 threes, and we're back in Vegas.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, Marcus is looking at hotel prices in Mandalay.

[Marcus Thompson]

It was literally Las Vegas who played with nothing. They shot the comfortable threes. Chelsea Gray hit the. The big threes. And what, what did Phoenix go 5 of 18 like? The shot making of the Aces not only makes them fun to watch, it just makes them incredibly tough to beat.

[Ben Pickman]

And we saw it all series long. I mean, game one was the Dane Evans J game. Drew Lloyd, when did she have the four three pointers in three minutes in the open game three. In game four, it was all of them. It wasn't just asia who scores 31, but it was, they get 22 combined. For Evans and Lloyd, it was Jackie Young and Chelsea ray combined, scoring 18 points each. I mean, like the other takeaway that I think we just underestimated heading into the series is just how many weapons the Aces have, the multitude of weapons. They could win so many different ways in so many different styles of game. Like, they were just significantly better than the Mercury all series long. There's no other way to put it.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean, Phoenix just was not good enough defensively at all in this series. I think the Aces scored at least 20 points in 14 of the 16 quarters in this series. And you think about Phoenix coming in as the best defense during the playoffs, having taken down New York, having taken down Minnesota. They have this length, they have this versatility, and The Aces put together this small lineup that Phoenix just could not figure out for the entire series.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, they had a hard time matching up and I thought Phoenix was a tough matchup because you had those three players who are so tough to guard. But once they neutralize Alyssa in game one, that was all game. Yeah, they never figured out how to recover from that.

[Ben Pickman]

Marcus, like you are a historian. Not that you are, Sabrina, but you are also a historian. Maybe you can pile on after this.

[Marcus Thompson]

That's. That's being calling me old like streets.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, wearing your open California shirt is fine. You know, we've heard comparisons for this team and you brought it up. The comments of the, you know, early founding of this league, the Minnesota Links. Nikki Fargus, the team president of the Aces, she's compared Asia to, you know, Tyson, Tiger, mj. Like she's putting Asia in that class. She said that when she is all said and done, she will be the goat. I don't know, put. Put some of this in historical perspective or what impresses you having watched some of these people having covered incredible athletes on the NBA side too. Like how do you reflect on either the team or. Or the Asia Wilson individual historic dominance?

[Marcus Thompson]

It's. They've got a strong case. I mean, look, I was a big Comets fan, like massive. Like when that came, it was a lit time. But the league wasn't the league like now. Right. I mean Cynthia Cooper and I mean they just cooked everybody. Like they were so out.

[Ben Pickman]

And that's what Becky said. She was like, they cooked me. They cooked me bad.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like nobody had a shot. The Minnesota, the Minnesota was tough. I think it's a great matchup of like when they were planning this proverbial series. Sylvia Files is going to be a tough matchup with Simone Augustus and obviously Maya Moore.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Maya Moore versus Jackie Yanni is so exciting to think about. Oh my God. We were denied that.

[Ben Pickman]

Goodness gracious.

[Marcus Thompson]

But this team is so full of talent that they'd be such a matchup problem. To me, the uniqueness of Asia is she's a big, but she plays like a wing and we just haven't seen that. So we're not only seeing a great player coming to her own, we're seeing something we've never seen before. I mean that shot in game three, just the picture of it. You're not supposed to be 64 creating those moments, right. It's like back to the basket. You know, there's been bigs where you know, you get a put back or a big rebound or inside shot. Like she's hitting turnaround, 15 footers over wives. Like, that's. This is like legendary stuff.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Unclear if they're actually married yet. But the point stands.

[Marcus Thompson]

I mean, you know, wifey's. Yeah, that's what we say when we don't know, be married. Just white over couples. How about that?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

What's interesting is, like, you're kind of describing Brianna Stewart, right? A big who's 64 who can do all these things. But Asia's just a better shooter than Stewie is. She's a better rim protector than Big. You know, Stewie is like, all of these things that we thought Briana Stewart was ushering this new age of what, you know, a big could look like in the wnba. And Asia just took it and took it a step further.

[Marcus Thompson]

It's crazy. It reminds me, I'll tell you, since I'm old, we gonna go with the old stuff. I remember and was it 92, Jordan and the. There's the Bulls and Blazers and Clyde Drexler was like, oh, we got somebody who could push Jordan. And like, Jordan saw that and just absolutely was like, I'm destroying Clyde Drexler. And. And. And the thinking was like, all right, number two. Like, number 100 is closer to Clyde Drexler than Drake. Larissa Jordan. To me, that's what it felt like Asia did. Like, yeah, Alyssa Thomas is good. Nafisa Collier is good. Brianna, like, no, you guys are nowhere near her. Like, that's what she said. This. This series, this whole season, really? Like, you can't touch me. There's no number two. Really?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. That's what Becky said, right? She's from South Dakota. She thinks about Mount Rushmore a lot. But Asia is Everest. There's no one around her.

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[Sabrina Merchant]

Did I talk too much?

[Ben Pickman]

Can I just let it go? I was thinking so much.

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[Ben Pickman]

We saw it post game. You know, one of the lines that will stick with me post game was Asia reflecting on the dropped pass that, that she fumbled with like 40 seconds to go in game three.

[Marcus Thompson]

I was so shook about that because I was asking her about her hands. We were talking about how great her hands was and it was like, yo, if you drop a, if you drop a pass, now Marcus is a drink. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, bro, she gonna call me out on social media like it's all bad. I thought it was over.

[Ben Pickman]

But she said afterwards as she was reflecting like how much that moment of dropping that pass just was like eating at her that she needed to get it back. And what I thought was so, you know, telling of how she described getting it back was it wasn't just the offensive end. She knew either I'm gonna get a basket and score and win this game this way or I'm going to win it on the defensive end. And just like the ability for her to impose her will at all moments in the game, I think that was one of the, it was just so apparent throughout this whole series. I think what is so amazing though, and maybe we want to zoom out Sabrina and reflect on the Aces entire season was just how they got to this point. And I know we touched on it earlier about this kind of platform being a microcosm for their entire series, their entire season. Rather how they, you know, they were a put back layup by Jackie Young away from losing to Seattle. They were, you know, an odyssey Sims layup away from losing to the Indiana Fever. And then they just dominated the Phoenix Mercury. And to me that is really the story of their season of slow starts. 500 at the all star break, the 50 point drubbing at the hands of the Minnesota league, second worst in WNB history. And then the 16 game win streak and they've lost three times since August 2nd.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, their first 28 games they went 14 and 14. Their last 28 games they went 25 and three. So pretty good. A bit of a change. Yeah. But I think, I mean, part of its matchup, right? You look at Seattle, they had bigs who could actually contend with Asia, right? They had Neko Gumake, they had Ezzy Magna Gore, they had Dominique Malanga, Aaliyah, Boston, Indiana, series. There's just nobody on Phoenix who could hope to approximate that. And that completely changed the tenor of the series because you have to spend so much energy thinking about Asia, and then Asia opens things up for everybody else. Right? So, I mean, I wonder if it's partly like the Aces just turning it on, figuring out what they need to do, or like, this was just a good. A good team for them.

[Ben Pickman]

Right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Like we talked about it during the regular season, they beat Phoenix all three times that Asia played.

[Marcus Thompson]

I do. That's a great point. Like, no, is this a team that's good enough and experienced enough that no matter who they play, they would have figured out a way to win? Right. And we saw them do that in the other series, and it just. They just didn't look this great. They missed the bottom line. Then they get to the finals and they look incredible. So it almost feels like, I mean, we're adding 22 and 23 to it, too. But if you look at the total package, they were going to figure it out anyway, right? No matter who it was.

[Ben Pickman]

Except for they almost didn't in the first and second round. Like that. That is the thing that is so confounding about it. And maybe that speaks to. And you know, we're going to get into the season big picture in episodes later this week and going forward. But maybe that speaks to just the. The competitive parody in the WNBA right now that, you know, really one through seven. You can maybe make some cases for that. Could the finals be any combination of those teams? I guess, maybe. Yeah. One one through seven. Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Because Seattle made it close. They were the seven seed. Indiana made it close. They were the six. Even Golden State, almost. Even Golden State almost took Minnesota to three games. Right. Like, there was a significant amount of parity in the playoffs this year in a way that we haven't seen before. Like, you look at Vegas's runs in 22 and 23. First round sweep in both those seasons, second round sweep in 20, 23, you know, four games in the finals. They just didn't go through a lot of adversity and they were tested in ways that they weren't in previous seasons. And maybe. Maybe that team was better in 22 and 23. Like 23. They obviously go 34 and 6 during the regular season. One of the best records in WNBA regular season history. And there was just no hope of containing that team. Like, even without Chelsea Gray in the final game, they still beat New York on their home floor.

[Ben Pickman]

And that journey mattered to them. Like, as this team started to reflect post game, you could see the emotions in Becky Hammond's face. I mean, at one point in the post game press conference, Asia Wilson, who, you know, had already been enjoying her champagne and her parents, both of them.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think it was more beer. It smelled like beer.

[Ben Pickman]

Both of her parents had bottles that they were holding as well. You know, Asia held up a towel, a 2025 WNBA Championships towel, to kind of shield herself and Chelsea and Jackie from a crying Becky Hammond, who was just reflecting on the journey and how much this team and these players mean from her. They. They're like, becky, please do not get emotional in this moment.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's very funny because then Jewel walked in. She's like, oh, Becky's crying already.

[Ben Pickman]

She just continued. Continued to cry.

[Marcus Thompson]

It's a testimony of their depth too. Like, I mean, I. I do feel like that's part of the Phoenix story. I mean, beating New York, beating Minnesota, running really seven deep right at best. And then you run up against this bus saw, like they just did. Even looking at this last game, they fight. They're the queens of comeback, right? They love the late rally, but they just didn't have enough. But Vegas had enough. They always have something in the Whale to go to, and that's just a tough thing.

[Ben Pickman]

And they had the best player in the league in the world to go to. In the world to go to, maybe.

[Sabrina Merchant]

In history, who knows?

[Ben Pickman]

And that is a huge advantage. We're going to spin it forward to Phoenix in a little bit. But let's spend a moment, I think, on, I think probably the most memorable moment of game four. I mean, maybe if you guys.

[Sabrina Merchant]

No, I think you're right. I think the most pre celebration, but.

[Ben Pickman]

It was Nate Tibbets, the Phoenix Mercury coach, getting ejected towards the end of the third quarter. He picked up two quick double technicals. And per the pool report that Annie Costello Front Office Sports conducted with the crew chief Roy Galvanion, Nate initially said, that's effing terrible to one call, and then said, that's effing terrible again. And he was assessed his first technical after his first sequence of comments, sequence of words, and then assessed another technical after repeating it. I mean, Nate said it was a weak technical. He said he'd never seen an ejection that was embarrassing. He said it was embarrassing. He said it was B.S. you know, he didn't want to make it about the officiating. But I think the reality is, like, officiating has been a story that has clouded the whole season. And we've seen coaches from the very beginning, through the very last game talk about inconsistent officiating and their frustrations with officials. We saw Kathy Engelbert acknowledge it ahead of game one. Frankly, I thought it was unfortunate that Nate got ejected, that, you know, coach went out like that in a fourth game, not, you know, seeing it through all the way. And I thought it was also unfortunate that we have to talk about officiating one more time when, you know, the Aces had this incredible culminating moment.

[Marcus Thompson]

I mean, it's fitting though, right? Like, it's. It's a perfect way to go out. I mean, look, I. I don't care. It was lame. You don't. You don't toss a coach like that. I mean, I feel you like, if. If. If one is worth a tech. You know what I'm saying? He just. He just did a little multiplication.

[Ben Pickman]

He said, like, coaches know if they want to get ejected. He's like, I know how. Basically saying, I know how I can get myself ejected.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Which is funny because this is his first ejection. So apparently he does not know how to get rejected.

[Marcus Thompson]

He going, he learned today. You just can't, judging by it, especially because it's like, double. Technically, he's out. I'm like, geez, Nate, like, there are kids in here, right? That's what I immediately thought. Like, what did he say to find out? That's what he said. Like, that's lame. That's lame.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Super lame.

[Marcus Thompson]

Come on, man. They got to get a handle this. And then, you know, there. There was a bit of, like, you know, doling out the text. Obviously, it gets emotional. Some team is about to go home. There was just a little showmanship from the db.

[Ben Pickman]

Got one.

[Marcus Thompson]

This. It's a fitting way to end the season that's been about this. Right? Like, they. They couldn't stay out of the spotlight for one more game. Like, that's essentially, you think, the state.

[Ben Pickman]

Of the game committee that Kathy Engelbert announced after game one. You think they met post game game four, or you think they're gonna wait.

[Marcus Thompson]

Till they're meeting after her and Nafisa got it.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. To not only have to talk about officiating and then, like, this game was marred by an injury absence. Right. And so much of the season has been about players Missing time to injury. And we saw it again during the Finals, A key player missing a game because of injury.

[Marcus Thompson]

I mean, but when you were talking about the. You know, the most riveting thing of the night, I thought it was after. After. After the game, but before the.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Oh, yes, let's talk about that. For sure.

[Marcus Thompson]

I mean, geez.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So what Marcus is referring to is that after the game, when the commissioner, Kathy Engelbert, came on to present the WNBA Finals trophy to Mark Davis, the owner of the Las Vegas Aces, who.

[Ben Pickman]

We should say later, had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich that he was very proud to be eating. Sorry, Sabrina.

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[Marcus Thompson]

Does he really eat those things where all that white he's wearing.

[Ben Pickman]

He ate it in the press conference. I did see, as he walked on me, a little bit of a half of it out.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Because he realized that they wanted him on the podium, and he was very excited to take the stage.

[Ben Pickman]

Sorry, Sabrina.

[Sabrina Merchant]

As. So Holly Rowe comes out for espn, right? Introduces the commissioner. Booze rain throughout the stadium. I could not hear one word that the commissioner said.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, it was loud.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Could not hear a word she said.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, way up there.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And you think about it, we are in an away arena for the Las Vegas Aces, right? So it's not as if all of the fans are still here to cheer for the Aces. It is just the people who, like, probably like a. An eighth or so are left over, right? You know, remaining at this point. And deafening booze for Kathy Umbert.

[Ben Pickman]

Like, I.

[Sabrina Merchant]

You could have told me she said any number of combination of words, and I would not be able to verify that because I could not hear what she was saying.

[Marcus Thompson]

It was bad. It was like. I think you said, resounding. Like, it was like. It was. It was choral, right? It was just really, like, almost, like, premeditated. Like, when she get up there, everybody's like, all right. When she. You're like, let's go. Let's get ready. Like, that's how bad it was. And then, like, all right, cool. At first, it was like, yo, wow. They boot her.

[Ben Pickman]

She hands it off to Mark Davis.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. The cheers start.

[Marcus Thompson]

Comes back to give Asia Wilson the finals mvp, which is a moment for Asia. Like, she's trying to rally, like, run off these stats. Like, I don't know. Again, I didn't hear what she said.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I couldn't hear what she said because the minute the mic went back to Catherine. Unending booze. Yeah, that.

[Marcus Thompson]

And, you know, then again, she's hurrying up to get through it. Gets through it. Hands the mic to Holly Row, who's interviewing Asia, and then she gets. You know, Kathy gets out, and then they boo. She was leaving. This is like. She was like a WWE villain out here.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I remember Kathy Engelbert staying on the floor longer during previous celebrations, you know, to. To, like, you know, talk with the team officials and, like, say hi to the owner, say hi to the head coach. And, like, they had to get her out of Dodge as soon as possible. Literally, the minute she hands off the trophy to Asia Wilson's like, all right.

[Marcus Thompson]

It was. She was.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Quick exit.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah. Getting booed three times in one kind of ceremony is like a happy ceremony. That. That. That's just. That sports history, really.

[Sabrina Merchant]

That's crazy.

[Marcus Thompson]

What do you think it means? Like, what is. I mean, obviously, the feast of college comments lit a fire about this whole thing and. And turned her into this kind of public villain. But is this a symbol of how, like, just everybody's behind the players in that sense?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean, I think it is. I mean, I think one of the things that Fee did so well, and we touched on this in her comments, was she really rallied so many different kinds of constituencies behind her message of what she was saying. And that was players. That was fans. That was fans of Fee, that was fans of the league, that was fans of Caitlin Clark, that was clearly fans of the Aces and the Mercury who.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Were in the building in game four.

[Ben Pickman]

And again, we should say, like, Kathy Engelbert, the league has, you know, prospered over the last six years. It has exploded in growth under her tenure. And obviously, some people debate how much is that a result of the players, how much of that is a result of Kathy Engelbert and the capital raise and, you know, the investment from teams. That is all up for debate, but I don't know if there's another way to read it. Thank you. You know, the fans. I mean, this, as you guys are saying, it was more than just when a commissioner gets on stage.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Look at the draft, and it's like a sprinkling of booze. And, you know, David Stern just, like, says, yeah, like, bring it. You know, it's different.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, yeah, that I'm telling you.

[Ben Pickman]

And.

[Marcus Thompson]

And I think maybe 2015 or maybe 2010. It was earlier than that. I was there when Joe Lake of. Got booed. The fans were. Were hot that he traded Monte Ellis and he took the mic and it was bad. I think that was worse.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's the worst I've ever heard.

[Ben Pickman]

So is Kathy Engelbert then hoping that, you know, the next 10 years of her professional career are the same as the warriors after that moment.

[Marcus Thompson]

Four championships over the next 50 years. I mean that just the first off like that it was three times, right? And it feels like like this all just happened in like, like a week span, right? Like you know the joke, the warriors were terrible for a while. Like that was building. He was talking about we're going to win champ and all that. This, like this just sparked.

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[Ben Pickman]

You mentioned the warriors and you use the word building and so I think that is a perfect segue for how the Phoenix Mercury are going to look going forward because their general manager and you wrote an excellent story on this during the series. Nick Uren came from the Golden State wars, work with Steve Kerr, the head coach there and Bob Myers, their former, you know, top basketball decision maker. And Nick comes to Phoenix. This was just his second season with the franchise where he's the top decision maker this past offseason. They trade for Satus Aboli, they trade for Alyssa Thomas. They have just two returning players from last year's team on this one. Completely a new generation of the Phoenix Mercury post Taurasi Pro Skreiner Sabrina. As you look forward for the Phoenix Mercury, what do they need to do to get back to this point and to potentially, you know, win the Finals? Because obviously that is now the goal they are going to have.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I think they need some sort of secondary ball handling. There's a lot of reliance on Alyssa Thomas and there are not a lot of counter punches you can throw. Felissa's, you know, being taken out of the game. So, you know, you have people who can create their own shot like Kalia Copper or Duana Bonner or even Satsu, but they're not creating for others in the same way that AT can. And you really just need another backup point guard, honestly, who can help play with at and play off of 80, but also run the offense when she isn't. And then I, I mean, I'm not so sure how much they really need like another big like obviously Asia Wilson is a terrible matchup, but like Asia Wilson's a bad matchup for a lot of teams and like trying to, you know, build your Aussies around defending Asia Wilson. Like I, I understand a lot of teams go about that like you got to go through the best to, to win, but I would say like the, the ball handling things probably a more pressing concern at this moment.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, I definitely think they need a, they need another option besides at go downhill and make it happen. They also need some depth. Like you just can't, you can't win a championship. Not, not playing your bench.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, well, and we saw, I mean, Natasha Mack had been their starting center for most of the year and she didn't necessarily play starting center. You know, she wasn't playing 30 plus minutes a night. But in the finals, I mean, what, what was her. How many minutes did she play in game four? She played just two minutes in game four and had two fouls. I want to say in those two.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Minutes took her out, never brought a.

[Ben Pickman]

Reckon right and she didn't play the whole second half of game three. They also didn't get much. You know, Monika Komakane struggled at times throughout this series. Sammy Whitcomb finally hit a three pointer in game four, but she had not.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Scored since, since the fourth quarter of game one.

[Ben Pickman]

Right. Cat West Belt, who had been very reliable and important contributor for them in the first half of the season, struggle throughout this series. Like you talk about depth, you talk about the bigs, you talk about needing another ball handler. For as close as the Phoenix Mercury came and I think Nick would recognize this too there they have a lot of work to do if they want to get back to this point. I mean this is going to be the most anticipated free agency we've ever had in the league with pretty much every veteran player who is a free agent. Coincidentally of course, Kalani Brown, one of the few, one of the two, one of the two veteran players who is not a free agent. So maybe she's on the line with Nick right now talking about roster decisions. But they know that they're going to need to make some changes to get back here because for as close as they came and you talked about it, Marcus, as it relates to Asia and the rest of the league like the Phoenix Mercury still have a ways to go and it's not to me just about experience if they want to get to the top of the mountain next season.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, knowing Nick and that kind of philosophy he operates with, they just had too many one way players and if you look at the best teams in the league, you just have to be able to do it on both ends. And that's, that's Natasha Max problem. Right. Great shot blocker, really good. But you're losing.

[Sabrina Merchant]

They never figure out our offense.

[Marcus Thompson]

You can't you against the, against the Aces, you just can't sacrifice any offense. You just can't because they're, they're going to score. They score so much like from so many different ways. I mean obviously Asia, but if Jewel Lloyd and, and Jackie Young who's like probably one of the most underrated players in the league, they're just cooking you. Dana Evans is coming in. You don't stand a chance. So I do think he, they need some more like that's the way the league is going. You got to play both ends, you got to get up and down, you got to be able to guard on the wings and you got to be able to create offense. Like that's what they need. I Could see them going after those type of players, I guess.

[Ben Pickman]

As we start to wrap up any final behind the scenes, favorite moments of the finals, things that, you know, you saw in tunnels and hallways and press rooms, conversations, any story, any moments stick out in your mind.

[Marcus Thompson]

I got a question for you.

[Ben Pickman]

Yes.

[Marcus Thompson]

Who, you know, who's the greatest person you sat next to tonight?

[Ben Pickman]

You know, I'm enjoying sitting next to Sabrina Merchant. It's been a pleasure to sit next to Sabrina on these podcasts. But yes, Marcus, as you said, Asia Wilson, the four time WNBA mvp, sat next to me during the press conference. And I asked her, do you want to help me on my story? And she looked at my computer and I said, here's what I got. Like, what should I do? And she, I mean, she was like, so. So on it. She. She basically said, like, you know, Asia's here. And what did she say? She said, like, I can't even remember. I'm not starstruck. She said, asia's struggling, but she's here with me right now, referring to me being with her. It was. I mean, I was not expecting that story. And then her mom sat next to me too, right after. So, Sabrina, I got both Wilson two. Wilson, did you fall to number three in the rankings?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm good. I got to sit next to Mark Davis. We had a great time.

[Ben Pickman]

And now Marcus Thompson. The illustrious Marcus Thompson.

[Marcus Thompson]

I don't know if I stack up, but we need to switch so you can get some of this too. You want me to make your night complete?

[Ben Pickman]

Sabrina, what were your favorite? Any moments?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I really enjoyed Bam out of bio as a doting, not necessarily wag. What do we call him? Just partner Mag. I don't know.

[Marcus Thompson]

No.

[Ben Pickman]

There was a thing about this in the first game presser.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'll call him a SAP. A SAP. A spouse and partner. Yeah.

[Ben Pickman]

I think he filmed the whole post game.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So Bam out of bio films. The whole post game I really enjoyed. During the ceremony on the court, they're talking to Asia Wilson about how nice it is to have all of, like, her loved ones in the arena with her and the Jumbotron pants the Bam out of bio and all the Aces fans start cheering. And he looks at the Jumbotron to figure out why they're cheering. He sees him and he starts cracking up. It was very adorable.

[Marcus Thompson]

It was. And you know, seeing her fall into his arms like, you know, saying thank you for believing in me. Like that was that. That's the stuff that championship moments are made of. Right? That was really sweet.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

I really, you know who, you know who I felt it for was Jewel Lloyd. I mean think about what Jewel has been through, right? With you know, a rough team USA experience, like kind of getting ran out of Seattle. And even she said like, you know, Becky believed in me the whole way. For her to play like this in the finals now 10 0. But like not like a charity tenant. Oh no, she's a part of it. Yeah, that, that was pretty cool to see jewelry have that.

[Ben Pickman]

And when she came in, in the press room and she started to reflect, Asia Wilson had this bright pink tambourine that a trainer on the Aces gave her. And Asia just started to rattle that tambourine and praise Jewel Lloyd and praise Chelsea Gray, praise Jackie Becky Hammond. Everywhere you went, kind of in the Aces post game celebration, you just heard that tambourine rattling and you knew like, like there was greatness playing, playing instrument, playing. Her team out for this season.

[Marcus Thompson]

Let the church say amen.

[Ben Pickman]

I think we, I think we should leave it there. I think we should leave it there. That is all we have for you.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Just real quick, I want to thank everybody at Michelob Ultra arena and the mortgage matchup center who came up and said hi to us. It's so nice whenever you come say hi and say that you watch the show and like the show, like it just, it means the world. So thank you to everyone who did that. Sarah, Megan, just a bunch of other people like it was lovely.

[Ben Pickman]

Sabrina, that was really nice and heartfelt. I totally echo agree with that sentiment too.

[Marcus Thompson]

I gotta thank, see can I thank Ashley Young who I don't know why but she's just staring at me taking photos. So she's right here. Line of sight. So thank you Ashley Young for being a wonderful.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Check out our Instagram ta know off season. It's very good.

[Ben Pickman]

Please follow us, subscribe. We will have more.

[Sabrina Merchant]

You got to check out Ben's half court shot from earlier today. It is epic.

[Ben Pickman]

Talk about a moment that I will not remember that will live. I mean two different sides of the spectrum for me. Asia Wilson, what do you think she would have said had I showed her my half court shot attempt?

[Marcus Thompson]

She probably would have took you under her wing, took you in as a charity case.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean I, I need some work after that attempt but. Well, we are done with this work for the finals and we will be back next week with more work because the WNBA season might have concluded but as we say in the show, there is no off season.

[Sabrina Merchant]

CBA deadline on October 31st.

[Ben Pickman]

Crazy free agency and the college Basketball season is also starting very soon, but we will be back our regular cadence for our Tuesday episode this week. Wherever you are listening, please follow our show. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe. Please follow us on ta no off season on Instagram and on TikTok. Shout out to Ashley again and Bri who is with us for the first few games. And please tell your friends also to follow like subscribe. Give us a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Sabrina said it we're so appreciative of all the praise throughout the finals, people coming up to us listening to the show during the season, all the comments we've gotten. It's been awesome to build this community and watch the show grow. And of course, speaking of community, please go on over to our partner, the Yahoo Sports Hub for more [e-mail] womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic Marcus Thompson, Sabrina Merchant, I am Ben Pickman. Thank you for listening and we will see you next time.

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No Off Season is hosted by Zena.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Cata with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming.

[Ben Pickman]

Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala.

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Monica Compton is our video editor.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's.

[Ben Pickman]

Basketball at the Athletic.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.

[Ben Pickman]

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[Ben Pickman]

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