← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Are Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese a True Rivalry? Plus, Las Vegas Aces/Liberty Rematch and worries for the Dallas Wings
00:59:33
Loading summary
Transcript87 lines
- [00:02]
Shopify Ad
This episode of the Totally Football show is brought to you by Shopify. When we're kids, we dream of being anything. A footballer, an astronaut, an international man, a mystery. But as we get older, reality kicks in and dreams change and we focus on how to take our skills and ideas and turn them into something tangible like owning your own business. And for that, you'll need a website, a payment system, a logo, and a way to advertise to new customers. It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but that's where Shopify comes in. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. When it comes to websites, Shopify's got beautiful ready to go templates to match your brand style. And you can amplify that brand with Shopify's easy to run email and social media campaigns. Shopify's AI tools are created for commerce and can help you with tasks like generating discount codes, writing product descriptions and enhancing product images. And whenever you get stuck, Shopify's award winning 247 customer support is always there. So turn those dreams into sales and get the best shot at success with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com totally. That's shopify.com totally all in lowercase one last time. Shopify.com totally.
- [01:21]
Wayfair Ad
Summer is almost here and there's no better place to go for outside furniture than Wayfair. Wayfair's huge selection of outdoor essentials will help you make your outdoor space more comfortable, functional and most importantly, more you. Get your outdoor space ready today so you can enjoy it all season long. When you have kids, they love to be outside, so you gotta be out.
- [01:43]
Zena Keda
There to watch them.
- [01:44]
Wayfair Ad
Wayfair can have outdoor sofas, maybe a set of chairs, a gazebo, some umbrellas because it's really hot down here in the South. No matter the need, Wayfair's huge selection of home items makes it easy to find exactly what's right for you. There's something for every style and every home. No matter your space or budget. Wayfair makes it easy to tackle your summer home goals with endless inspiration for every space and budget, including the outdoors. Free and easy delivery, even on the big stuff. No more huge delivery fees for patio furniture. Get big stuff like patio sets, gazebos, hot tubs, outdoor dining sets and more. Shipped free. Find all your outdoor must haves from seating to pool lounges to trampolines all in one convenient place. Shop a huge selection of outdoor furniture online this summer. Get outside with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.
- [02:51]
Sabrina Merchant
Love looks different for everyone, especially when it comes to all the ways you treat and celebrate yourself. I'm a big hammock head. Sunshine a hammock, A paperback western. That's my kind of everyday indulgence. And you can gift yourself the everyday indulgence of extraordinary hydration with Liquid IV powered by LIV hydro science. Visit liquidiv.com to fall in love with flavors like the zesty new hydration multiplier sugar free Raspberry Lemon Lemonade and use Code no dunks to save 20% off your first order. Liquid IV is easy and convenient. You just tear, pour and enjoy. It's my go to when I'm getting a pump in or handing out buckets, but it's great for staying hydrated during long days, enjoying the outdoors or any other time you need some hydration in your body. Liquid IV offers so many true to fruit flavors, whether they be hydration multipliers like acai berry, lemon, lime and pina colada or sugar free like raspberry lemonade, white peach and rainbow sherbet. The flavors are always true to fruit, break the mold and your own ritual. Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone because Liquid IV is powered by LIV Hydro Science. An optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. You're getting three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight essential vitamins and nutrients. And Liquid IV is always non gmo, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free. So treat yourself to extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order at Liquid IV when you go to LiquidIV.com and use code no Dunks at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code no Dunks@liquidiv.com.
- [04:57]
Zena Keda
For the athletic I'm Zena Keda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's basketball. Whether you're a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the game or you're a casual fan looking to learn more. And if that foul against Caitlin Clark by Angel Reese was actually a flagrant, we're Here to help you learn that, make sure to subscribe to this pod, wherever you get your pods to stay up to date with us. And also, of course, subscribe to the Athletic, because, man, beyond just our voices, there's written words that covers this game, people. And you don't wanna miss out on the year round in depth coverage of the game you love. As always, I am joined today by athletic women's basketball writers Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. And let's go through what we're gonna cover today or what we like to call the scout. All right, first up, you might have heard it in the headlines. Bird and Magic. Bird and Magic. Bird and Magic. There is a budding new rivalry in the wnba. We'll talk about this apparent comparison to Bird, Magic with Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. And if this is actually truly an R word, truly a rivalry, then we got to talk about a true rivalry that took place last year, of course, between the Aces and the Liberty. They finally, a month into the season, had a rematch. Week six, folks. And they finally had a rematch after going up against each other in WNBA finals. We'll talk about what that game looked like. And then last but not least, Dallas fans. I know you, you were like, we need some love. We need some attention. Yeah, we gotta ask the question, what the heck is going on with the Wings? And make sure we understand why a team that was in the playoffs last year is right now in the bottom third of the league. Alrighty, let's kick it off. Over the weekend, the Indiana Fever took on the Chicago Sky. Very anticipated matchup, if you guys remember, the first outing against between the two teams, Chicago sky took that win. And of course there was this talk, this conversation around Kennedy Carter and Kaitlin Clark, the hip check, the booty bump, the whatever you want to call it. That was the last time they played. So of course there was a lot of attention and a lot of energy on this game. But this time, the attention was between Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark, a familiar duo because of their contention as some people would like to see it as, or just their competition, as others would like to see it as since the NCAA finals a few years ago when LSU took on Iowa in the national championship and you saw the infamous Angel Reese, you can't see me face in the hand gest, that launched a legacy of quote unquote rivalry between these two. Now, this time around, the Fever walked away with the win. It was a very good game. Came down to the final seconds, final minute really of the game. And you could say I mean, even though Angel Reese had a double double herself, Caitlin Clark by far was the best player on that floor overall. We'll talk a little bit about her stats, how she came up, but the number one thing that everyone's talking about is not the win. It's not the fact that we're finally seeing Caitlin Clark having a full complete game, the fact that she, you know, whispering in the ear of a triple double. It's not the fact that that duo of Caitlin Clark and Aaliyah Boston is finally showing up in the most amazing of ways. It's not even the fact that on the Chicago sky side that the front court duo of Camila Cardoso and Angel Reese are killing it on the offensive boards and the rebounding boards overall. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Of course, we're not talking about just that sort of basketball, those real things. We are talking about a rivalry, talking about a battle between the lines. And of course, that is between Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark. Sabrina, why are we talking about Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark after this weekend's game?
- [09:25]
Ben Pickman
I think it's actually very fun to be talking about Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark because when you talk about a rivalry, for me, that requires sustained matchups against one another and both teams getting to win. So you think about they played each other when Angel Reese was at Maryland. They were competing for Big Ten titles, you know, when they were both in the Big Ten in that same conference. Then Angel Reese goes to lsu and we have a national championship game between the two of them, which obviously Angel Reese gets the better of. And then the very next year, they meet again in the Elite Eight. Iowa wins this time on their way to the national title game. So you have enough of them going up head to head against one another when they were at least the last two times when they were both the best players on their teams and having different results in those matchups. Obviously, Angel Reese, I think, still has the overall upper hand because of the national championship that they won at lsu. But, you know, Caitlin's got enough wins in her ledger for it to be a decent enough competition. So I think, you know, just when you have two players who have clearly matched up against one another so many times who were both really heavily hyped coming up out of the draft. You know, Caitlin goes number one, angel goes number seven. But Chicago made a very substantial move to get up to number seven, draft her. So it's not like they didn't value her in terms of selecting her in the draft. You know, it's like these are the most hyped prospects coming out of college. They have had, you know, ups and downs over the course of the regular season, but they're both putting up pretty big numbers right now. You know, Caitlin was the first rookie, I believe, in WNBA history to score 250 points, have 75 rebounds and 75 assists through her first 15 games. Angel Reese now has the longest double double streak of any rookie in WNBA history. So they're, you know, they're doing big things on the court. Yeah, Indiana, Chicago, as Andrea Carter said, is kind of a mid off right now. Like, we're looking at two teams who are battling for the eighth seed in the WNBA playoffs. But I think it's cool that, you know, we had these two players who obviously crossed paths so many times in college. They still matter a lot to the overall women's basketball space and the fact that they're big characters on their teams in the pros. Whether or not those teams are epic or not, I think it's fun to keep talking about them. I mean, frankly, like, the sky and the Fever themselves aren't the most compelling teams in the wnba. So to lead with those two women, I think, I think it's perfectly fair and I think it's fun that they inspire so much, you know, attention and energy around them.
- [11:50]
Zena Keda
What's so interesting about this duo in the sense that, you know, rivalry is usually when you think of a rivalry, you think of people in the same position, right? You think about people that are going up against each other in the same position. They're defending one another and they're also scoring on one another and they're, you know, there's that sort of like matchup. So it is an interesting dynamic to have this be not actually something that they're on the floor, not too greatly involved with each other. You know what I mean? Like, it's not as if Caitlin Clark is guarding Angel Reese in the pose. And Angel Reese isn't often out there on the perimeter with her unless she's really involved in a pick and roll or something of the sort. So it's interesting that this is really not a direct battle for battle in terms of play, but it's a battle really of personalities and Personas of basketball players where Angel Reese had her Persona as a basketball player with within her college career into the W, and Caitlin Clark has her Persona as a basketball player from college into the W. And those two entities coming up against each other as opposed to like a one on one who can take, you know, the other to the basket, etcetera Etc. Ben, you're looking at this game over the course of the weekend. 91:83 Indiana Fever take the win. And even though there was that discrepancy between the game, you know, eight points, it was incredibly close. It was much closer than that score. Lets on literally coming down to a few buckets in the last minute of the game. But when you look at the overall performance of the Indiana Fever, of course, Aaliyah Boston gets 19:11 double double. You've got Caitlin Clark, amazing, well put together game. 23 points, nine rebounds, eight assists or one. I think it might be one of the two, nine assists, eight rebounds. I mean, literally right at the door of a triple double. And then the only thing that we're really talking about the morning after this game is this flagrant foul by Angel Reese on Caitlin Clark in the third quarter. And I'd love if you could break down what happened and why was that such a pivotal point in the game?
- [13:57]
Unnamed Speaker
Well, frankly, it was not a pivotal point in the game in my opinion. And I know that Sabrina mapped out that like, this rivalry is fun. And I think honestly, all the points that you made, Sabrina and Xena, you responded to like, are really fair and different than the conversation that is being had about this play. Because frankly, like, I don't find this talking about this play very fun or very interesting or that worthwhile because this was a basketball play in that Angel Reese was going for a block late in the third quarter of this game, as you mentioned Xena, and she swung her arm trying to block Caitlin Clark's layup attempt, did not get the basketball, instead ended up getting Caitlin Clark's, you know, the side of her head. Caitlin Clark fell to the floor because she was fouled. She ended up shooting a flagrant one free throw. They reviewed it and they deemed that it was, you know, excessive contact because, you know, she made a play and she got her in the head and that was, you know, excessive and that you can't just strike someone in the head. But it didn't seem like there was any malice or like intent to harm or, you know, this was a very different situation than what happened a few weeks ago. And people have just started to come out and run, you know, different outlets. I'm not saying we're doing this because I don't think we are, but plenty of outlets out there have like LED talk shows or written stories about this play that, you know, yes, a basket and point was scored on it and Indiana retained possession. But like was a play that happens in a Basketball game pretty frequently, frankly, like flagrant ones get called all the time at all different levels of competition. But just because the two people involved, it drew some headlines. So I'm gonna then steer the conversation away because let's not like, I don't wanna.
- [15:39]
Zena Keda
I agree with you. I fully agree with you and I do wanna say before we pivot from this, I'm happy you made the point of that like this was just a part of the game. Because when I say like pivotal, it seems as if the attention of the larger audience stayed on that play as opposed to the rest of that incredibly entertaining game. Unless you were really in the building, it seemed like all the fans in the building were still very engaged with the game. But if you were in the world of the Internet, which I know is not the whole world, but that it.
- [16:11]
Unnamed Speaker
Is not the whole world, I can.
- [16:12]
Zena Keda
Confirm that it is absolutely not the whole world. Right. But it seemed as if that was like the last and only thing that was happening in the midst of this, this game was that this file happened. And I do want to say exactly like what Caitlin said after this and also what angel said after this. They were asked in post game, you know, about this play and Caitlin Clark was asked about like what's going through her mind, et cetera when that play happens. She goes quote what's going through my mind. I need to make these two free throws. That's all I'm thinking about. It's just a part of basketball. It is what it is. She's trying to make a play on the ball, she being angel and get the block. It happens, end quote. That's what she said and I agree with her a thousand percent. Amazing response. Very true. It's a part of basketball. It is what it is. She made a play, she tried to make a block. Angel makes a similar point, but she actually calls out exactly what ended up happening. Angel goes quote It's a basketball play. I can't control the refs. They affected the game obviously a lot tonight. I'm always going for the ball. Y'all are going to play that clip what, 20 times before Monday. End quote. Perfect, perfect quote. To kind of encapsulate the truth of the matter, which is this game happened and it was a beautiful game on both sides of the ball. You know, just elevated play for two mid type level teams that are trying to find their, their footing, particularly as they try to fight for a seed to get into the playoffs later on this season. Not high caliber play by any means. Not like the best teams of the league going off against each other, but two teams that really want to prove against each other that they're the better team. So incredibly competitive game at the end of the day. And that was what resonated within the media after the fact. And I say this to say, if you're listening to this podcast, we appreciate you listening. And we want to say what you saw was regular basketball, folks. We're not gonna. We're not gonna hype it up any more than that. It was regular basketball. We're not gonna be someone that's gonna replay the clip over and over and over again. But it does add to this sense of the rivalry, right? This concept of that these are two big foes going up against each other. It adds to the drama. So I do want to redirect to that aspect of just good basketball and good rivalry. And I want to ask. I want to start with you, Ben, because I think Sabrina kind of, you know, alluded to it in her response. But for you, what makes a good rivalry in women's basketball?
- [18:44]
Unnamed Speaker
I like that we're having this conversation because this past weekend was rivalry weekend in the wnba. Something I learned over the weekend. That was a thing. I didn't know it was previously a thing. Maybe it was not in the past. Maybe I need to do more, make more calls on that front.
- [18:59]
Zena Keda
Hey, we're all learning here. It's all good. I didn't know that either.
- [19:02]
Unnamed Speaker
You know, rivalries are something that Kathy Engelbert has also talked a lot about, you know, since she became commissioner. Just the importance of rivalries in growing the league, drawing interest, you know, building these kind of star on star, team on team matchups. And that's something I think we're seeing league wide right now about. Like, not just kind of people investing in the growth of the WNBA or the state of the WNBA as a league entity, but also teams and also certainly players. How are angel doing? How is Caitlin doing? How is Camilla Cardozo? How's Cameron Brink? Like, that's something I think that we're also ushering in right now, especially with this rookie class. To get to your question, I mean, look, I think Chicago and Indiana is a. Is a good rivalry right now because it has this kind of tension, I guess, like this, like, intrigue. And there is clearly some, like, disdain between people on these two franchises. And there, honestly, there are good reasons that Sabrina mapped out and why there should be. They also are very much like competing for a playoff spot. Like, there were real basketball implications to Sunday's game. And at The Indiana Fever, sneakily. People might not know it from their slow start. They're 5 and 10 on the year. If the season ended today, they would actually be in the playoffs. You would know that as we tape this on Monday afternoon, because of all the sky is falling headlines from the opening 20 days. But because of that win, you know, they moved ahead of the Chicago sky. So these are two teams that, like, they're in the same kind of class in terms of fighting, you know, for positioning. And that's part of the disdain. I do think, like, this rivalry lacks the stakes of some other significant rivalries that we've seen in WNB history. Like, these are regular season games amid teams, to use the language that we've referred to on this pod, mid teams. Like, these are not title contenders right now. Like, I think New York and Las Vegas, to me, is like a more interesting rivalry, even though the drama of Saturday's game, you know, from like, the external kind of casual fan, paled in comparison to Sundays. Because, like, there are real stakes when those teams play. Like, you might be getting a finals preview. We got it last year, obviously, and we've seen them in the Commissioners cup and we've seen them in the regular season. So, like, that, to me, like, is for me as a basketball fan, a more interesting rivalry, quote, unquote, because of the potential stakes like that are layered and behind it than some of the rivalry between Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and the Indiana Fever in the Chicago Sky.
- [21:31]
Zena Keda
Now, before we get off this concept of rivalry, because I do want to talk about that Aces Liberty rivalry, particularly in what mapped out in this weekend's game. But the interesting thing about the WNBA is that because there are so little teams and now that there's opportunities in free agency, you're seeing people actually test free agency and use free agency. This won't happen for a while with Caitlin and Angel being rookies. But the possibility that they could end up on the same team is not a crazy one, right? Like, one day, could they. Could they get traded? Could they end up in the same roster? Like, could that kill the rivalry if they end up in the same team?
- [22:14]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I would assume that if they played together, obviously, you know, you'd have to unite their fan bases somehow, similar to how South Carolina and Iowa fans all root for Indiana now because Aaliyah Boston and Caitlin Clark play together. But honestly, like, it's so early in their careers and they both seem like foundational pieces of the fever in the sky going forward that I have not considered the possibility of them ever playing on the same team. When you said same team, I'm like, oh, you mean like the Olympic team? Like, that's what I'm thinking.
- [22:39]
Zena Keda
I was thinking Olympic team, but I was also thinking wnba. And I think the main reason is because I cover the warriors also. And I'm thinking about Chris Paul joining the warriors was, like, crazy. After you think about the history that he had with the Houston Rockets and the warriors in the playoffs, trying to make it to the Finals and how much that was a crazy concept to think of him on this team. Same thing with, you know, Kevin Durant joining the warriors and eventually winning a championship. But that's, you know, NBA talk. But it was just interesting to think, could these very big Personas on different teams and like you said, foundational pieces of their teams potentially end up on the same roster? What could that look like? And guess what also came to mind? Angel Reese and Camila Cardoso. Right? Like, these were two college rivals a little bit, right between LSU and South Carolina coming on the same team. And everyone had all of these concerns and they're like, killing it together, high fiving up and down the court, killing the glass. Like, I'm just like. I feel like in the WNBA rivalries have a ability to be a little bit more sensitive and more vulnerable to. I don't want to say falling apart, but just not holding the same weight as it does in other leagues. But I don't know if that's true or not. Thoughts on that?
- [23:57]
Unnamed Speaker
I mean, one other case in the W that I think has changed over time is we see Sophie Cunningham and Kalia Copper playing on the same.
- [24:04]
Zena Keda
That's a great one, right? We all remember that photo. We remember the photo of Kalia Copper standing over Sophie Cunningham in the playoffs. And we're like, they'll never play together. And now they're like, so happy. They're happy. They're frolicking on the court together, folks, and it's working. And I'm just like, could this be Caitlin and Angel? I mean, I would just. The day for me that, like, the WNBA may have to stop, like the world will stop turning is the day that Dijonay Carrington and Marina Mabry end up on the same roster. That would be insane. But the next one would be Caitlyn and Angel.
- [24:40]
Unnamed Speaker
Xena, are you speaking this to existence right now?
- [24:42]
Ben Pickman
No, I'm just.
- [24:44]
Zena Keda
I just think it'd be so interesting. The thing is, in other leagues, because, you know the chances that you'll end up on the same team as Someone else with more teams. Those chances are slimmer. When you've got 12, next year will be 13. But when you've got that few of teams and you're talking about teams that are vying for championships, owners are trying to, you know, woo teams to have the best players and have the best opportunity to get a championship. Yeah, having a Caitlin Clark and an Angel Reese on the same roster would be fire. Obviously, it's still very early in their career, but you just never know. They could end up on the same team and this whole rivalry talk could end and it'd be really, really crazy to see. But we're still very early in it. I'm just thinking, like, I'm just thinking out loud, folks. Nothing, nothing legitimate to any of my thoughts right now. But right now it is fun to watch these two go up against each other. It's nothing too contentious. You know, no one's talking about each other's mamas out there on the court. It's just basketball, folks, and their competition. There's competition.
- [25:45]
Unnamed Speaker
Can we just spend, you know, as we put a pin on this, like, make a basketball point of Aaliyah Boston and Caitlin Clark, you know, we talked about how it was Caitlin Clark's perhaps her best performance overall, but I think really, for the first time over this last week, we started to see Aaliyah Boston fully settle into playing alongside Caitlin Clark. And, you know, the performance on Sunday between the two of them was promising for both parties and then them together as a pair. Right. Aaliyah Boston had 19 and 14, a career high. Five blocks in the middle. Xena, you threw out Caitlin Clark stat line already and just how impressive it was. And yes, Caitlin Clark still had five turnovers, but the kind of chemistry, you know, in some of her assists, I believe of her nine assists, I want to say four or five were to Aaliyah Boston. And that was something that early on in the year, we harked on it on this show and in written stories as well that, like, it didn't seem like they were fully playing off of each other just yet. And so the fact that Aaliyah Boston, you know, had that outing against Chicago, she also backed up a 27 point performance against the Atlanta Dream just before, you know, they had played Chicago. Like, those are real reasons to be optimistic if you're an Indiana Fever fan. Yes, like all the kind of drama between Indiana and Chicago is interesting, but there were like, tangible reasons to kind of be excited about the future after, as we mentioned, a really slow start to begin the year. 1 and 10 to open the year.
- [27:12]
Zena Keda
I appreciate you pulling me back there, Ben, because I was going very tangential in my dreams of what rivalries could potentially look like and if this rivalry could last if the, you know, throughout the course of their seasons. And the main reason is, is because when you think about Bird and Magic like they were core to their teams and that helped fuel the rivalry. And these two definitely seem like they're going to be pillars on their respective teams for a very, very long time. Especially, especially for the reasons what you're just calling out. Aaliyah Boston working incredibly well with Caitlyn Clark and that duo just putting on a show on top of. And then, you know, Chicago's getting their duos together, too. Kennedy Carter moving into the starting lineup. Her ability to connect with her post players is unmatched. I mean, I know you talked a little bit about this in your power rankings, Sabrina. Just like Kennedy Carter was supposed to be the sixth woman of the year, potential six woman of the year, and now she moves into the starting lineup. She's ruining her options for that award. But it's great for Chicago because if you're a post player and you want, you're looking for a guard to get you the ball, Kennedy Carter is that person. Her and Camila Cardoso have been, you know, connecting really well. Camilla and angel have been connecting really well in the high low. More reasons why angel will be pivotal for the Chicago sky as well. I am enjoying the fact that there is even at the lower levels of the league competition. Right. Because it gets boring when the competition is all stuck at the top and there's no one else to talk about. The fact that there's excitement, there's sellout games with the Chicago sky and the Indiana Fever is fun. But let's talk about the top, because last year, the top was kind of stale, right? There was always a Las Vegas Aces. We just talked about this last week. Is it time to worry about the Aces yet? Is it time to worry about the Aces yet? Is it time to worry about the Aces yet? And of course, when you think about the fact that their steady hand in Chelsea Gray, their point guard is not out on the floor yet, it might have been a little too early to make that determination. Let's. Let's just wait. Let's just wait and see as they try to figure themselves out without their veteran point guard on the floor. Well, the Aces came out hot and heavy against the New York Liberty, who, let's just be real, their chemistry has really solidified over the Past year. I mean, they look like, I don't know how many practices people are squeezing in in the midst of these games. And I know they had a week off before this game with the Aces, but they look like they practice every day and that they have sleepovers every day. They are best friends. They are so connected on the court. Not to mention Jonquil Jones is in MVP form. She is unbelievable inside, outside, driving in size, strength, all the above. So they're looking beautiful working together. This rematch took a long time to get to. The Aces have played less games than the New York Liberty, but in the midst of their season, this was the game to look forward to. Obviously remembering that the Aces beat the New York Liberty 31 in the Finals last year on their court and also down two of their starters, right. Kia Stokes and Chelsea Gray were not able to play in that last game in the finals and they still were able to take down the New York Liberty. That obviously led to some nightmares and dreams over the summer, I'm sure over the year, over the off season for the New York Liberty, who have come back raring and in this game took over. But if you watch the game, first quarter through third, it was looking like last year, it was looking like it's a little stale at the top. These two are the contenders. These two are the potential finals teams that are going to end up in the finals. And then the fourth quarter happened. Sabrina, you talked a little bit about this game in your power rankings piece that is live right now. Athletic. Go read it if you have a chance. But what changed in that fourth quarter between these two teams? And what did you see leading up to that fourth quarter that made you recognize there was a change, a significant change beyond the score, of course.
- [31:25]
Ben Pickman
I mean, just first of all, like, it's so strange to me that it's already June 17th and we're talking about one Vegas Liberty game because Vegas played 50 total games last season. If we're counting playoffs, preseason, Commissioners cup, everything, 10 of them were against New York. So one out of every five games, we're getting Aces Liberty. It's a lot of Aces Liberty games.
- [31:44]
Unnamed Speaker
See, Sabrina, I thought you were going to say it's weird that the Aces have six losses in May.
- [31:48]
Zena Keda
Also weird.
- [31:49]
Ben Pickman
Also weird. Yeah. They finished 34 and 6 last year. They are 6 and 6 this year. And obviously, you know, no Chelsea Gray for any of these 12 games so far. But, you know, you mentioned there was kind of a turning point in that game. I would argue, like, there were so many different spells in this Game where it looked like, okay, well, at the very beginning, you know, the Aces come into this game allowing opponents to shoot 40% on three pointers, which is just astoundingly terrible. And now you're going up against the New York Liberty, who a great three point shooting team and they ran, I think, seven threes in the first quarter and it looks like, okay, well, what is Vegas supposed to do to stop this offense? And then inexplicably, like Asia Wilson and Jackie Young both sit for the start of the second quarter and Vegas makes a run behind the backs of Sidney Coulson and Kelsey Plum, which, you know, drink if you thought that was going to happen. So there's just all of these little mini runs that are happening during the game. And then Vegas kind of starts to take control during the third quarter. But then midway through, you know, Jonquill just starts to reassert herself. And I thought, really that's the most important thing to take away from this game is that last year I thought that what we learned from Vegas, New York, was that Asia Wilson is the best player in the world. She is the toughest match of problem. Even though New York had the MVP and Brianna Stewart, they had no answers for Asia Wilson. And so you look at this game in the regular season and what I realized was Asia Wilson was not the matchup problem. Jonquil Jones was the matchup problem. Jonquil Jones was the one who was getting every spot she wanted to in the paint. She was scoring at will from the perimeter, you know, cleaning the glass, protecting the rim. Everything you could possibly ask for from a center, from a small forward, from whatever position you think Jonquil Jones best fills on a basket, she was making it happen. And that's really what stood out to me is, oh, does New York have the best player in this matchup now? And that completely tilts everything because again, last year, no matter who Vegas played, you knew that the Aces had the best player. And I'm not so sure, given the form that John Quill Jones is in, given just the advantages that she has side wise skill, skill wise against, you know, this Aces team, if that's still true.
- [33:50]
Zena Keda
Yeah, it seemed as if Jonquil Jones transformed herself into all players of the Liberty. It was if you needed a shot outside, you got it. Usually it's Sabrina, Brianna, no, no, Jonquil Jones if you needed a drive inside. But Nigel Laney Hamilton, Cool, cool, cool. Johns can be her too, if you needed, you know, to clean up the glass. Kayla Thornton. Yeah. John Quail Jones can do that too. It was everything that her teammates were doing, she did on top of that. And I think that's what made it so relentless of an attack, was you have all of these individual pieces for the New York Liberty that are so good at their job, and then you have jeanqual Jones on top of it, who happens to be incredibly tall, and then also doing all the things that her teammates do so well.
- [34:43]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah, I mean, look, I think Asia Wilson, if we're all taking a player or a post player, we're still, for one, you know, one game, we're still taking Asia Wilson. But I think JJ Reminded people on Saturday that, like, on a given night in the wnba, she can be the most dominant player on the court. And I think she kind of showed that as well, and it was kind of interesting. You know, she kind of downplayed it a little bit post game, saying that, like, I'm just playing the game, that if I'm open, I'm shooting. If someone rotates, I pass the ball. Like, I'm not overthinking it. And I think we definitely did see that. That there is, like, a freedom to how she is playing right now that, you know, last year, she. You have to remember at the start of the year, she was working her way back from injury. It wasn't until really the second half of the year that she kind of fully settled in. She was definitely one takeaway that I had. I think the other thing that stands out to me, though, is New York is doing this, too, without Courtney Vandersloot, who has been out for a little bit with a personal. For personal reasons. And one of the things that. That. The effects that that has brought about is that Kayla Thornton has played more inserted in the starting lineup and also just played more overall. And we saw last year, I was going through some of the data post game that last year, you know, the lineup of Thornton, Laney, Hamilton, Stewart, Jones and Unescu, they played in six games and only 18 minutes together all season long. And they had a plus 42 net rating, which is a crazy high net rating. But the important Numbers There are six games in 18 minutes, basically. Sandy Brondello almost never used that lineup this year already because in large part because Courtney Vandersloot is out 11 games and 109 minutes. So almost double the games and five times as many minutes, and they're plus 20.4. Right. Which is. Is still a crazy high net rating. And of course, like, you know, the net rating has come down, which isn't surprising. They're going against starting lineups and they're playing the lineup more, but it is still indicative of, like, that could be a really, really good group. And, you know, one that New York is going to lean a lot more on potentially as the season continues to progress and into the postseason than they did last year. Because, you know, we'll see what happens with Courtney Vandersloot and how they kind of reintegrate her back into the fold. I fully expect her to go back into the starting lineup and play a big role, but I do think, like, the fact that they're getting kind of these valuable minutes with Thornton next to the other four players I mentioned could definitely pay off in the long run in the postseason. To me, that is a takeaway that, you know, in watching the game back and thinking more about it that I came away with. I think it's still tough to, like, read into the Aces side because they were doing it without Chelsea Gray, because Jackie Young had missed some time earlier in the week with illness because Kelsey Plum even said she wasn't feeling her best. Like these things can all be true at one time. It still is a little bit alarming that the Aces have six losses now when they had six losses all of last season. But at the same time, it's hard to like, push the panic button, quote unquote, if we're doing like sports talk TV or sports talk radio because they are playing with and I wrote the best point guard in the world, which I still still think is true, she will be the starting Olympic point guard and that is the best team in the world. So I don't know, square like those two things. I think it's more interesting or potentially more consequential to read into the Liberty side than the Aces side right now.
- [38:02]
Zena Keda
Okay, I want to go back to the point you were making about that lineup on the Liberty side with Caleb Thornton. It also is a testament to just how much they've worked on their ability to mesh well. Right. When you think about the more time that they've had together, not only playing all last season, training camp this year and then these games this year, I felt as if last year the New York Liberty struggled to enter, integrate their bench well, really out, maybe outside of Maureen Johannes, but, you know, Stephanie Dolson and Kayla Thornton sometimes were just kind of thrown in a little bit, but it was for the point of maybe maintaining as opposed to growing upon something that was already happening in the game. And now you're seeing that lineup being able to be a lineup that can be thrown out, to be explosive to Add to the energy out on the court and then also maintain. So I think that's a really big testament to just how much New York has grown in being able to integrate others because their starting lineup has been so solid as a core. Then on the asus side, and this is where I appreciate you saying it may not be time to press the panic button yet. Cause I don't want to panic. Okay. I want to feel good. And I want. I'm waiting for Chelsea Gray to come on back. No rush. No rush.
- [39:13]
Unnamed Speaker
Which might be. It might be soon. Xena, she has upgraded to questionable these past couple games did not play.
- [39:19]
Zena Keda
That's right. That's right. She has been upgraded to questionable, which is great. I'm not sure what's happening behind the scenes. I wanted to ask Sabrina, have you heard anything about Chelsea Gray being able to come back?
- [39:29]
Ben Pickman
I mean, we're still dealing with the knowledge that Chelsea Gray broke her toe during the WNBA Finals. And that is all the injury information that has been released that she's dealing with a left leg injury. So for more details regarding Chelsea Gray's injury, I really have no idea where you're supposed to go for that.
- [39:46]
Zena Keda
Well, this is. And this is for, you know, for you guys, listening, like, this is very characteristic of the Aces. They release very little, as little as possible. Which is like, I get it, they want to protect their players and they want to make sure that they. They keep things in house as much as they can. But they, they do their diligence to let the media know what we should know. And that's what we know about Chelsea Gray for now. Now, without her. We have seen some really bright spots, though. When I think about what Jackie Young did against the Phoenix Mercury, she is capable of those games where she can have 34 points and make seven threes. I believe it was. I mean, she's capable of that, but she did not do that against the Liberty. She only had 10 points. I believe was missing some of those. Those shots that she typically makes. And I want to ask, like, is that more so the, the Liberty's defense or just Jackie Young not being able to make those shots?
- [40:48]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think credit to the Liberty defense, you know, one of the inadvertent benefits of not having Courtney Vandersloot is that they become a much bigger, more athletic, just longer team. And Becky Hammond was talking about that. She's like, yeah, at every position, they're bigger than us, so we have to rely on our speed. And, you know, that's just something that didn't exist for New York last year, right? We were talking about, can the perimeter defense hold up, right? Like, how are Sloot and Sabrina supposed to guard Kelsey Plum and Jackie Young? And that was something that was never really resolved over the course of the finals. So I do think that just all of that length that New York has that they can start with, you know, Hamilton, Lainey Hamilton on Jackie Young. And they can, you know, mix in a little Kayla Thornton and Whiskem stores. Like, Stewie takes the Jackie Young assignment, as she did during the very first possession actually of the game on Saturday. So just a lot of options throw at her, a lot of arms in her way. I think that's a big part of it. But as you know, Ben alluded to earlier, Jackie missed a game last week against the Sparks. She was questionable with an illness. Two games before that, she hasn't really looked like herself other than that one Phoenix game, which I don't know. Something about the. Something about Phoenix really brings out the best in Jackie Young. But I'm just inclined to think that, like, this week is not what I'm going to see out of Jackie Young. The thing that really stood out to me against the Liberty was that she had, you know, multiple turnovers. And Jackie Young is, like the most careful ball handler of all time. She doesn't like to make risky passes. She likes to control her possession at all times. And like Asia Wilson's always saying that there are times when there's a window and Jackie doesn't want to throw the ball through just in case there's a turnover. Like, she's very particular about that, and she was just wild with her decision making in some of those situations against New York. So to me, like, this is not the Jackie Young that I would expect to see in a couple weeks, even a month down the road. So I'm not sure what's up there. But, you know, I do want to obviously credit the Liberty defense because it is just miles better than it was at this point last year.
- [42:35]
Unnamed Speaker
I mean, the words used by Becky Hammond in Asia Wilson post game, undisciplined, unorganized. You know, Becky Hammond said that the Aces right now don't have an edge or a hunger. And she really said that they didn't have that dating back to camp. And, you know, those things can be true in the present. But, you know, in terms of things change over time. Right. I think even on this very podcast, as I wrote kind of in takeaways, Becky Hammond came on this show and she was kind of reflecting how last year when New York blew out the Aces in mid August, or I guess it was the end of August in Barclays center for their final regular season matchup. Like, New York was playing better than Las Vegas right then. And Becky Hammond said that, you know, by the playoffs, things had changed. And New York and Las Vegas certainly went up another level in the postseason as we saw as they went on their title run and, you know, you know, won the title despite being shorthanded over New York and proved to be the best team of the year last year. But, like, things can. There is a fluidity to this that I think is important to understand. And it's, you know, it's important as we talk about it as fans consume it. Also as they read Sabrina's power rankings and they are like, huh, why are certain teams. Why are the Las Vegas Aces, what, fifth or sixth in this week's rankings? Like, they might be that if we're still picking a title favorite right now, like, they're probably still going to be in our a title, you know, prediction against New York. Like, but they're fifth or six in the power rankings. Like, these things can all change. They're all fluid. Injuries are a big part of it. I know. That's maybe why the team we have 12th is 12th and maybe we'll get into that some, too.
- [44:14]
Zena Keda
I think when it comes to the Aces, particularly when you're just talking about Ben with the aspect of injuries and Chelsea Gray. Chelsea Gray coming back can absolutely help some of the issues that we're seeing, right? Asia Wilson not getting a touch on every single possession. Jackie Young may be feeling more settled on the court while she's alongside a Chelsea Gray. Just overall offensive movement, fixing some of that undisciplined behavior play that you saw. But what I'm not sure of is Chelsea Gray coming back, fixing some of the issues that aren't necessarily tied to just her pick and roll defense, perimeter defense, some of the things that the Aces are really struggling at right now. My question is, even if Chelsea Gray comes back, do you all feel that her impact will also be felt on the defensive side as well?
- [45:13]
Unnamed Speaker
I mean, I guess what you're kind of talking about more generally is, like, attention to detail and that kind of focus. And honestly, I think it's, like, really hard to predict. Like, I'm in the position right now to give the Aces the benefit of the doubt. And it kind of comes from the same position that I've kind of thought about when thinking about the Liberty this year where they've talked a lot about chemistry. Like chemistry being this all important thing as they, you know, build this second season in their core together as being like so, so important. And I'm like, that's great. It is great that you are playing together. But there have to kind of be like, just because you have spent another year playing together, that alone, like doesn't vault you in my mind, you know, to the next level or the next tier. Just because the names on the roster are together now, like you talk to some players and you ask a little further about the specific examples or specific ways that chemistry translate. They say, you know, knowing when someone's going to back cut better, you know, being able to switch non verbal cues. Right. Things like that. Maybe it's Sandy Brandello having more of a familiarity with like this lineup that I didn't play last year, I should play it more this year. And we have the same names and so she's going to lean on it more or like knowing how to win games when you don't play your best. That's where I think the intangible kind of translates to tangible. I think it's really hard then the other way, as I was saying and you know, it's like an impossible question to answer. Like, I think Chelsea Gray does resolve a lot of those like questions defensively and that like the chemistry of the aces. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. But it is hard when you also square that with the intangible uncertainty, the intangible uncertainty that Becky Hammond and some other people are outlining and admitting when it comes to this year's group, at least in the present.
- [47:00]
Zena Keda
Okay, Sabrina, you watched this team last year with a healthy Chelsea Gray. Of course they also had, you know, factors like Candace Parker mixed in there too. But Chelsea Gray does make a big impact on this team. What do you think she can bring when it comes to that attention to detail that Ben's talking about and particularly the defensive end?
- [47:21]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, just helping the offense will help Vegas because they'll take the ball out of the bat like the opposing team will, you know, have to take the ball out of the basket more. And it's easier to set your defense when it's not in transition. Right. So I think that's the number one way. And then Chelsea talks a ton. She's just the loudest person on the court. So in terms of organizing, you know, that applies offensively and defensively, even if Chelsea's not the one who's guarding the best perimeter player. Like, that's still going to be Jackie Young. Asia's still going to take the biggest post threat. But Chelsea's voice is so important. And, you know, I think Kelsey Plum actually made a really good point last week that Chelsea just plays with a lot of joy. You know, she is super fun to have on the court. She throws these ridiculous passes where it looks like she's got eyes on the side of her head. Becky Hammond said something super gross last week where she's like, it has like a headband of eyeballs. Like that's she can see all around.
- [48:07]
Zena Keda
Her head, just a gargoyle. I don't know. That's a weird image that just popped in my head.
- [48:12]
Ben Pickman
Super weird. I had to share because I heard it, so you have to hear it too. But no, Plum was just saying that, like, you know, it's. It's tough going through this. Like, we're used to winning, we're used to being successful. We're used to things looking a certain way and it gets just mentally fatiguing. And Chelsea just brings a certain level of lightness and levity, and it's just really fun being on the court with her. And maybe that just brings a certain, like, moxie back to the Aces. Because when you think about the Aces last season, like, yeah, they were beating up a lot of people on the court, but they were also just having an absolute blast with it.
- [48:42]
Zena Keda
Right.
- [48:42]
Ben Pickman
Like, it looks like you'd want to be a part of the Las Vegas Aces locker room. And right now they're just glum and, like, not having a good time with it. And, you know, you think about just the personality that Chelsea Gray is. I think when we talk about intangibles, I believe that absolutely makes a huge difference in terms of bringing, you know, some of that edge back to Las Vegas.
- [49:02]
Zena Keda
Okay, this is week two of us saying not to press the panic button just yet on the Aces, folks. This is week two of it. We're in week six. Entering week six of the WNBA season, we're saying, not yet, folks, not yet. I will be sitting here with my anxiety alongside some of you, but we will see what happens with the Aces. Overall, though, New York Liberty looking dominant alongside some, you know, big time talent in the Lynx as well, and the Connecticut Sun. And guess who's creeping up the rankings? Phoenix Mercury. But we kind of anticipated that with Brittney Griner coming back into the fold. Now, when you look at the teams from last year that were in the playoffs, Aces were up there, the Liberty were up there, Connecticut was Up there, there was another team that lost to the Aces before they went off to the finals. Ben, who was that?
- [50:01]
Unnamed Speaker
That would be the Dallas Wings.
- [50:04]
Zena Keda
Dallas Wings. That's right, the Dallas Wings. When you look at the Dallas Wings right now, they stand three and nine on the season and they are in the bottom third of the league. And this doesn't very much give you a team that was once, you know, fourth seed in playoffs last year and, you know, literally had to lose to the Aces, which a lot of people had to lose to the Aces, but had to lose to the Aces in the second round of playoffs. But they're not looking like that this year. And I want to ask why. I feel like I may know the answer, but I just want to ask the experts. That's why we got Sabrina and Ben here. Because if you are a Dallas Wings fan, you know, you're down some personnel, but it still feels like we shouldn't be here. We shouldn't be at this point. So, Ben, I'll start with you. Right now, what you're seeing with the Aces in terms of Chelsea Gray not playing, you're seeing something similar with the Dallas Wings. Who's missing from the Dallas Wings that helped them make that run last year?
- [51:17]
Unnamed Speaker
The answer is most everyone. If we're focusing specifically on Monday night's game, here's a stat for you. Monday night, the Dallas Wings play the Minnesota Links. They will not have on their roster on Monday night. Seven of the nine players, okay, who average the most minutes for them last season are not on this. Are not playing in the game on Monday night. Now, there's various reasons for that. Some players have been released, some have been traded, some are not. Did not even play in the WNBA this year. Someone like I Walk Weir fits that case. But injuries are kind of the overriding, you know, thing thread that has linked them together. Natasha Howard, she started the year, the first game of the season, I believe, right after that. She has gone out with a foot injury. Satu Sabley, dealing with a shoulder injury. She has not played all year. Monday night's game and we'll see, you know, what the prognosis is. The team said on Monday. Arike Agumawale, dealing with soreness in her Achilles. She's considered day to day. She's not gonna play on Monday night. You go down the list like, there's other turnover. Veronica Burton was cut out of training camp. Odyssey Sims, not on the team again. Krister Dangerfield, same deal. So this is a team that like, you know, had a lot of Talent and a lot of expectation entering the year. But the reality is the lineups that they are putting out right now very different from the team that was on the court last year. And it is a much younger team and just a team similarly that is trying to find itself early on this season.
- [52:47]
Zena Keda
So it seems though, if they are able to get healthy, Satu Sabley comes back, Natasha Howard comes back or we go, you know, hopefully this isn't anything serious and she's able to be back. Like, it seems like they should be still in a pretty decent position to be competitive, but we don't know when that will be. But you know, when that day comes, they should have a little bit of that parody on top of the fact that they have one of the tallest and most powerful, I would say, front courts. You think about Tierra McCowan, you think about Kalani Brown. I mean, this is some size that I think a lot of other teams have to go get size to be able to compete with. It seems as if they're gonna be in a good position to battle. But Sabrina getting better without bringing in new talent seems hard to do in the wnba. It seems as if you have to have those free agency signings like New York had or like Seattle recently had. You have to have some big time movement. If Dallas is able to get fully healthy, do you think that they have enough talent to go up against those teams that made those big moves?
- [53:59]
Ben Pickman
See, it's interesting. So Dallas makes the WNBA semifinals last year. This is a year after they made the playoffs and lost in the first round. So one step forward. And Greg Bibb, the general manager of the Dallas Wings, said that their goal was to go from a top four team to a top two team. That's obviously a very ambitious goal because that's basically saying you want to make the WNBA finals or at least finish second during the regular season. And yet Dallas starts the season with five players of its 11 player roster who have never played a minute in the WNBA. Five out of 11, not one minute in the WNBA.
- [54:31]
Zena Keda
Yikes.
- [54:32]
Ben Pickman
Now this does include Lula Seneschal and Stephanie Suarez, who were technically. Well, Lulpa Seneschal was on the roster last year. She didn't end up playing because of the injury that lasted for the bulk of the entirety of the regular season. But that's just a lot of inexperience to try to bake in when you are trying to again make it to the WNBA finals or be a top two team in the league. And yeah, you still have Arike Gumbawale you still have Satu Sable and Natasha Howard. Satu and Arike are both, both all star starters a year ago. Tasha Howard has been an all star before. Former defensive player of the year. You mentioned the big front court with Tierra McCowan and Kalani Brown. It's just they can't play every minute, right. And like LT Leticia Chammell tried to do that last year, Dallas ran a very short bench. For the majority of the season it was just Kalani Brown. Maybe one guard comes off the bench, but it was basically seven players. And those starters are playing a ton of minutes. And I'm not saying that's why they're hurt now. Like Satu suffered a shoulder injury during Olympic qualifying. Natasha Howard, freak broken foot during a game, you know, opening night of the regular season. But it just shows that they didn't have a ton of depth that they were relying on a year ago. And now once that depth falls apart now, well, Enrique's overused and does that mean like she's overdoing it and is that why she's experiencing Achilles Horness? I don't know. But I do know that injuries tend to be a cascading thing. When one person gets hurt and you start to over rely on other people, that just creates a chain where not everybody's prepared for the role that they were jumped into. It's like when, you know you have overuse injuries in your own body, right? Like you overcompensate for your right leg if your left leg's hurting and then something happens in your right knee. Just the balance of everything is thrown off in Dallas. And it's not that I had the highest of expectations for them coming into the season because like you mentioned, if you were trying to improve, I think you have to have an influx of talent. And yeah, maybe down the line, J.C. sheldon and Stephanie Suarez and even Matty Segrest will grow into great players for the Dallas Wings. But it's too early to see that.
- [56:28]
Unnamed Speaker
I was going to say, and Maddie Segrest has improved this year significantly in her new role.
- [56:33]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, but again, like we're talking about one player who has exceeded expectations for the Dallas wings out of 11. And yeah, they've gotten, you know, some nice minutes out of Mo Billings who ended, you know, entered as a injury replacement. But even then, like the shine's starting to wear off a little bit there. Like she just couldn't catch a lot of passes in the last game I watched for Dallas. There are reasons why these players are available on the margins. And it's just an interesting team building strategy to me. I wrote about this a little in the power rankings this week with Atlanta, where, you know, they brought back a bulk of the same roster that they had a year ago, you know, hoping to take a step forward. And yet their best free agent acquisition plays the same position as one of their all stars from last year. So they can't play the two of them together. So we're basically having a lineup with the same amount of talent as he did last year. And in the wnba, I think everybody just gets so much better. Like there's so much more talent coming into the league that if you're not actively making moves during the off season, I just think it's unreasonable to expect only internal improvement to propel you forward.
- [57:28]
Unnamed Speaker
Sabrina, what was the other thing we were talking about last week about contracts and you know, the short term nature of the current state of the wnba?
- [57:35]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. So basically every player in the wnba, unless you were drafted within the last two years, has a contract that expires by the end of 2025 because of, you know, the prospect of new collective bargaining agreement, new TV contracts. So it's hard to do long term planning. Right. Like everybody wants to get out within the next two years because there's a prospect of a really big payday coming after that. One of two players, two veterans in the league that actually has a contract that lasts beyond 2025 is Kehlani Brown. And it's so odd to me that Dallas would extend a guaranteed contract for three years to a backup center. Yeah, like that is the long term planning that they are doing for a player who is never going to play the bulk of the minutes at her position. Assuming everything goes well for your team. I don't know, I just, I don't really understand the overall arc of what Dallas was doing this offseason. And unfortunately they've kind of hit worst case scenario of what could have happened.
- [58:27]
Zena Keda
What is it that even with all these injuries, this team has to play like they have to compete and they're going to have to compete until those players that are going to be imperative for their ability to get to that number two spot, which is like you said, ambitious, are able to come back in the satu. And Natasha Howard, when you think about their stats, they've got some pretty good stats in some pretty key categories. You know, they're third in the, in the league in rebounding, they're fourth in the league in field goal percentage. And I'm sure Tierra McCowan helps with that. And as well as Enrique and Gubuwale, they are third in the league in blocks per game. So good rim protection. They're first in the league and second chance points per game. So you can see the things, some of the stats that they have and they lead in obviously has to do with their size, right? Particularly their size and size. So if I'm a Greg Bibb and you know, I'm looking at my team and I'm, I'm Leticia Trammel and I'm looking at my team, I'm like, okay, well it looks like we just need a surge of outside offense and maybe a little bit more defense. But what team, like what players on that roster can you get that out of? I'm thinking maybe Chasey Sheldon. Sheldon, the rookie that just came in from Ohio State, a big time defensive player in college. You know, what can the Dallas Wings look to, to get over the hump internally?
- [59:56]
Unnamed Speaker
I guess I'm not as down maybe on the wings and their future as I think Sabrina mapped out. Like, I do think there is some truth to like, this is probably the worst case scenario that they had entering this season and obviously the injury bug has bit them hard and maybe in the long run, you know, we've seen Maddie Segris right now, as I mentioned, like, she's taken significant strides forward and maybe we'll see down the road next year. Say, you know, is Stephanie Suarez better? You know, is Lulopez seneschal better? Is J.C. sheldon, you know, is Sevyuzun, who's, you know, their rookie veteran point guard in her mid-20s who's playing this year? Like, are some of these players back and are they better next year? Because they were in essence thrown into the fire this year. And I think there is like some truth to believing that to be the case. I think the challenge that, you know, the Wings are kind of wrestling with and frankly, you know, Sabrina mapped out Atlanta and I think, you know, this is kind of a league wide conundrum for teams that I think are a little bit below, say the first five or six in the league is like because of those short term contracts, as we mapped out, like what does team building really look like and how much, like how much is planning for the future really a a like viable path when there can be so much roster turnover on a year or every two year basis like this? The WNBA right now is structured differently than a lot of other major sports leagues in America where like, you know, it's a lot harder in my mind to build for three years, five years, seven years down the road. Because, you know, as we were talking about in this rivalry discussion, like, players can change teams so quickly that the league kind of really reshuffles who's good, who's great, who's towards the bottom more regularly than maybe in some other sports. And it's also a 12 team league. And so the concentration is there. So, you know, that I think is the risk is like, on the plus side, a lot of these young players are getting opportunities, but on the downside, like, they're going to be free agents, too. Sooner than later, they're going to have to get paid their salary. You know, cap considerations to be made. There's other influx of young talent coming in that, like, it really is a tough push and pull that, you know, someone like Greg Bibb. But also other general managers around the league have to deal with about kind of team building and investing in young players because you do kind of want them to hit right away.
- [62:18]
Ben Pickman
And then like you kind of mentioned this with salary cap considerations, like, Dallas's top players are so highly paid. You know, they're giving a max contract to Natasha Howard. They've given a max contract to rike Gunbowale. Tierra McCall and Satu Sable have really big deals. And so it's hard to fill in around those unless you have young players, which is the route that they went with this year. You know, having those five players who've never played a WNBA minute, but 20, 25, not a bad year to be terrible. If this is just like a gap year for Dallas if they end up, you know, missing the playoffs unexpectedly, not a bad draft to end up high, you know, and if that ends up happening, I don't know.
- [62:50]
Zena Keda
That just sounded like there's nothing to do about it this year, Zena. They need to look to next year. So I'm like, all right, Dallas, we'll see what happens.
- [62:59]
Ben Pickman
At least not until after the Olympic break when SATU comes back.
- [63:01]
Zena Keda
There you go. Okay. Well, folks, this was a wonderful conversation. Ben, Sabrina, as always, thank you for bringing your insight. I always love learning a little bit of, you know, for example, rivalry week, folks. Apparently it was last week. We missed it. Well, we watched it. We just didn't know it was rivalry week. There's a lot more games this week, of course, as we enter week six of the WNBA action. Guys, how much time is it until the Olympic break?
- [63:27]
Unnamed Speaker
Just about a month.
- [63:28]
Zena Keda
Okay. All right, well, what we're gonna be seeing some teams turn it up before they get a little break to go into international competition at the Olympics, but I'm liking the energy in the W right now. It is competitive, it is high stakes, it feels like at all levels and it's a lot of fun to watch. All right, folks, for all of you listening, we appreciate you all tuning in today. Again, hit that subscribe button on our show. Leave us comments if you have any topics that you'd like for us to cover or questions for our writers. If there's questions, I'm not asking that. You're like, Xena, why did you. Are you kidding me? You've got some Ben and Sabrina here and you did not ask them? X. Tell me what X is. Let me know. I want to. I want to ask on your behalf. For now, on behalf of Sabrina, on behalf of Ben, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for your ear and encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. Until next time. Foreign.
- [64:30]
Unnamed Speaker
As we head into the playoffs, it's safe to assume there will be.
- [64:33]
Sabrina Merchant
A few calls made by the refs that will be hard to accept.
- [64:36]
Unnamed Speaker
But you know what isn't hard to accept?
- [64:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Discover. Believe it or not, Discover is accepted.
- [64:41]
Unnamed Speaker
At 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard that right, 99%. So make a good call for your.
- [64:49]
Sabrina Merchant
Wallet and get discovered. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [64:52]
Unnamed Speaker
Learn more at discover.com creditcard this podcast.
- [64:56]
Liquid IV Ad
Is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the Dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal. To help keep you safe for a limited time, Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [65:49]
Ben Pickman
Acast Powers the world's best podcasts.
- [65:53]
Wayfair Ad
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [65:57]
Zena Keda
Hey guys. We have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
- [66:00]
Unnamed Speaker
For the past seven years The Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [66:04]
Zena Keda
We love getting to talk to experts.
- [66:06]
Sabrina Merchant
We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us.
- [66:09]
Unnamed Speaker
And we also love hearing from you. But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh.
- [66:14]
Sabrina Merchant
A lot has changed in the last.
- [66:16]
Zena Keda
Seven years, and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older with us.
- [66:20]
Unnamed Speaker
So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
- [66:27]
Zena Keda
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all.
- [66:29]
Unnamed Speaker
About aging together better and also being able to laugh about getting older. We hope you'll join us. Search Laughlines with Kim and Pen Holderness New episodes every Tuesday.
- [66:42]
Ben Pickman
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.