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- [00:00]
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- [02:01]
Ben
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- [03:39]
Chantel
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- [05:15]
Dijonay
For.
- [05:15]
Sabrina
The Athletic I'm Shantelle Jennings and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show brought to you by AT&T. Welcome to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. I am Chantelle Jennings. I have been called off the bench this week to join our WNBA experts Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman sitting in for Xena Keda. I'm so excited to be back with you guys this week. We have a lot to talk about, including later in the show. Stay tuned for Ben's ranking of all of the gifts that they've gotten from MVP voting, sixth person voting, defensive team voting. I'm. I'm really excited to hear about all of this, considering Ben sent me a text earlier this week asking if Tater Tot Hot Dish were a real item consumed by Minnesotans. So this is where my entire life has led me to this point so I could lend this level of expertise to this podcast.
- [06:19]
Dijonay
Chantel, if this is what you know, being called off the bench, if this who are bringing off the bench, you could win six player of the year right now just for your performance on this one show. That's how shallow of a category it is and how the expectation I have for you getting off and hosting us today.
- [06:33]
Sabrina
Maybe we should all think of our own items that would be sent out to vote for ourselves as MVP or sixth person. I guess for this podcast it would be like fourth player of the year on the podcast carousel. However, our listeners aren't as interested in that. What they want to know is that this weekend history was made in the WNBA as Asia Wilson became the first player in W history to surpass a thousand points in a single season. Sabrina Ben, I guess initial reactions to that and I think the broader question that we can't ignore here is is this the best WNBA season we've ever seen from a single player?
- [07:10]
F
Well, the first thing I want to talk about is just Asia Wilson's reaction. You could just see how emotional it was for her to be in that moment. She stayed in the game longer than probably necessary in a pretty comfortable win against Connecticut, but wanted to get that thousand at home, wanted to have this moment in front of the Aces fans, the ones that have been with her since she began her career there in 2018. And I'm not sure if you had a chance to watch her speech in the locker room to her teammates afterwards, but the part where she says, like, there's days where I hate being Asia Wilson, but you all make it worth it and make me want to come into work and give me the life to do this was just really beautiful. I thought it was just like a lovely reminder of what kind of person Asia Wilson is and how easy it is to root for her and why I think the community of women's Basketball fans has rallied around her to this extent, even though numbers are numbers and every record is being broken because the season is 40 games long and we're probably going to see these points records just fall one after the other. But the moment for Asia was just, was just super awesome. And I know it's been an up and down season for the Aces and we'll talk about what this means for Las Vegas going forward, but it was nice to just have something genuinely positive and something that clearly meant so much to Asia Wilson and the Las Vegas Aces and to be able to bask in that just for a little bit.
- [08:20]
Dijonay
And you saw just the love like she has for her teammates. I mean, that video starts with, you know, them pouring water on her and celebrating her. But the way she singles out Queen Egbo and says like, Queen, you've only been with us for a few weeks, but you feel like you've been with us since training camp. And she talks about the players who have been with, you know, them the whole time throughout these last couple years, presumably, and the guards for getting her the basketball. And you just see the like, the love, the adoration, the respect, the like, the bonds that she's shown. You know, it's no wonder they've gone through a lot together. It's no wonder they've been so successful when you see that, you know, that love, that care for each other and you know, this year it's taken the form of her guards force feeding, getting her the basketball at all different moments. Because Asia Wilson is just having a historic season. As you were saying, Sabrina?
- [09:09]
Sabrina
I think when I look at Asia, I, like every coach will tell you in any sport, when your best player is also your most selfless player, you're going to have a pretty good culture on your team. And I just like you look at this culture of this Las Vegas Aces under Bill Lambert, under Becky Hammond. Like, it's been so consistently light and fun, fun and funny. Like I, I reference the like tortilla slap video way too often for my group of friends who have no interest in sort of these niche TikTok WNBM moments, but just the fact that this is a group of players that wins at such a high level, that has the best player in the world, and yet not only is she setting the tone sort of on the floor and in the locker room in terms of the culture they're creating, but the level of fun. I think we also saw that with the Olympic team, sort of how she kept things light, loose, you know, I. All parts of her game should be appreciated right now, but I don't think that should ever be understated, what she brings to the culture of that franchise.
- [10:04]
F
And speaking of fun, I am tremendously grateful to Miami Dade county and that key presentation ceremony to Bam Adebayo for bringing our favorite sports power couple out into the open and letting Bam enjoy this on the Internet with the rest of us. He had his requisite you know, apostrophe tweets in celebration of Asia's 1,000 points. Those messages have obviously been going back and forth between members of the Aces and Bam and the fact that that's out in the open and something that is the worst kept secret in basketball no longer is just that much more enjoyable for all of us.
- [10:39]
Dijonay
The thing about her season, and let's get into it just for the numbers behind it, so she's averaging 27 points per game this year. That is leading the WNBA by a significant bit. 12 rebounds, that's also a career high. Blocks 2.6. I mean, it's a crazy number. 1.8 steals. It's why she's a front runner to win defensive player of the year. Like one of the things that's most interesting to me statistically, it is one of, if not the greatest seasons ever. And Sabrina, I know you did some work trying to figure out if it is like per her per. Just as one metric, I believe it is 35.8 on Basketball Reference. And that is actually the highest per.35.2. Excuse me. And that is the highest per ever for an NBA or WNBA season. And people can say, you know, that is a flawed statistic. There's some basketball heads out there that might complain about how that is calculated. But you know, that is just one example that speaks to just how great this season has been. You look at it, you know, the point difference is, you know, from last year was 22.8. This year it's 27. That is, you know, almost five points per game. You know, in total, her biggest jump like other than this was 6.3. She averaged 16 and a half points in her second season. You know, her next highest overall for her career is 22.8. That's last year. Right. So just the singular jump she has made this season is as big of a jump as she's made almost throughout her career from a scoring standpoint. It's why Sabrina and I kind of half joking but half serious when we were talking about most improved. You can almost make the case for Asia Wilson for most improved player because of just how dominant she has been and that's really crazy to say for someone who likely should have won or could have won the MVP last year and is a two time MVP and who's going to be a three time MVP in just a few weeks time. But that's how good this jump has been from last season to this one. You can really make that case in her impact, her numbers, just what she's brought to the court. Like it's a crazy jump even from last year to this year.
- [12:35]
F
And you talk about all of the numbers that have gone up for Asia Wilson, the one that has gone down is her turnover rate even as she has taken on more usage as she's playing more minutes. You know, her guards were Chelsea Gray was out for an extended period at the start of the season, so she's playing without a traditional point guard. You know, Jackie Young and Kelsey Plum have been up and down. But for her to take on all of this creative burden within the offense and still be that effective and that disciplined with the ball in her hands I think is just another example of how improved and how dominant she's been this season. I mean, I don't know if remember last year when Becky Hammond came to the press conference after Asia Wilson lost the MVP award with this note card of how Asia's statistics would have matched up against Brianna Stewart and Alyssa Thomas had she played as many minutes as them. And it basically came out to the exact same season that Asia Wilson is having right now. And it seemed a little hyperbolic at the time that like, oh, if you play more minutes, obviously she's not going to be as good for 36 minutes as she was in 30. And yet that is exactly the case. She is just as dominant as she was last year with taking on a larger role with supporting a team that hasn't been as productive around her. And you know, you look at all of the, the great seasons that have taken place in WNBA history, like, like Ben mentioned, the raw numbers, she has the highest point total in WNBA history and that's going to be points per game, not just because of the 40 games. She's going to have the highest rebounding total in WNBA history, eventually going to pass Angel Reese within the next day or so. And she's leading the league in blocks too. I don't think any player has ever led the league in points, rebounds and blocks in WNBA history. Probably not in NBA history either, although I haven't looked that up. Just the statistical benchmarks that she's hitting. The fact that we already knew Asia Wilson was good and is taking it to another level is just. I don't know. It's an unbelievable rise. She's in year seven, and I feel like there are no limits on what she's actually capable of as her career goes forward.
- [14:24]
Sabrina
You're talking a lot about those, like, per game and totals. And like you said, we're going to see a lot of the total numbers fall as the season continues to lengthen year over year. Like, totals are not the best way necessarily to judge a player, despite the fact that, like, 1,000 is an incredible benchmark and it should be celebrated. I dove into some of the advanced stats today just to see previous MVPs. How many of those players have led the league in advanced stats? And just like these are things like offensive and defensive and total rebound percentage, just. Just sort of show how. How efficient a player is. I think one of the. My favorite things that you've taught me, Sabrina, is an economy of movement. When you're talking about players who are not wasting anything on the floor, they're just being as efficient as possible. And Asia is leading the league right now in defensive rebound percentage, points per play, block percentage, and turnover percentage. Like, this is a player who's doing all of that both ends of the floor, playing without fouling. And you look back at other MVPs over the last eight years or so. Last year, Stewie, in those in those categories that I'm looking at right now, only led the league in turnover percentage. Asia, and actually 2022 didn't leave the league in any of those. JJ 2021 led in defensive and total rebound percentage. But it's just. You're looking at these things, and it's like, it's not one area where she improved. It's multiple areas where she improved, and it's not one area where she's the best in the league. She's not just the best scorer in the league. She's also the best defender in the league. She's also the most improved in league. It's sort of all of these different areas and places where she's not just the best, but also the most improved and also the most efficient. Like, all of these layers are sort of. You know, I don't. We can. We can probably spend 40 minutes talking about all the ways she's impressive, but it's also, at the end of the day, it's like she's. She's just the best player in the world.
- [16:08]
Dijonay
Sabrina, what do you think? Like, one of the other things that is interesting, the categories we haven't mentioned is minutes. And she is averaging A career high 34.4 minutes this season. Last year, for context, she averages average just 30.7. She had never averaged more than 32 per game this year. Like they are clearly relying on her in a way that they have not before. I know some people, you know, some coaches, some other players, like she has been so great. Do you sometimes though see the Aces falling into. I don't want to call it bad habits because feeding the MVP can't possibly be a bad habit, but almost an over reliance at times that she can be so good that they just have to get her the ball and maybe that limits Chelsea and Jackie Young and Kelsey Plum. Have you observed any of that this year? Do you think that's a bugaboo for Las Vegas a little bit as they near the postseason? Or does that not concern you as the postseason begins?
- [17:05]
F
Not really. In fact, anytime the Aces are down late in the game and they go possessions without giving Asia the ball, I'm just thinking what in the world is the plan here? Like, how are we not letting the MVP get a touch at least? I don't think an over reliance on somebody who is as efficient as Chantel said is a bad thing in any way possible. I mean, the fact that Jackie Young and Kelsey Plumb's three point shooting percentages are like far down from 2023 is really the only difference. I think in the Aces offense. It's why it looks a little bit more clunky because there just isn't as much spacing relative to what they had a year ago. But no, no, I. I can't really get there. I think when you have a player who is in her prime, like Asia Wilson, who is as dominant and as effective and as consistent day in and day out, just get her the ball as much as possible.
- [17:52]
Dijonay
Makes sense. It's. It's why I think, you know, if we were going to do a locker room video after someone on this podcast would score a thousand points, I think we'd all have the same reaction for each other. Do you guys agree or not? Not really.
- [18:04]
Sabrina
You're such a good teammate, Ben.
- [18:08]
Dijonay
Just doing my part to try and help us win mvp.
- [18:13]
F
I think it's really impressive that Ben, you said that Asia should have won MVP in 2023. As somebody who didn't vote for her in 2023 to have made that. That narrative.
- [18:22]
Sabrina
This is also a good teammate. Holding. Holding people accountable. This is why Sabrina is a great teammate. She holds people accountable.
- [18:28]
Dijonay
Should maybe was a little bit of a slip. I voted for Alyssa Thomas. I'm on the record there. I think what she did last year to lift up the Connecticut son with the help that she had around her was pretty singular. And, you know, I would have no qualms if you thought Asia could have or should have won mvp. She definitely could have. Maybe it was a little slip on my part, but this year, no questions asked, you can book it. I think really the question is, is it going to be unanimous or not? And I guess we'll have to see during the postseason how that voting turns out.
- [18:59]
Sabrina
All right, moving from one all time great to another, Asia Wilson to Diana Tarazi. Is anyone else, every time you sign on to Twitter, missing the if in if this is it on all of the tweets about Diana Taurasi? Because I think they've tweeted this four times and three of the times I sign on and what I see is this is it. And I get ready to text the group chat, diana's retiring. And then I see the if, and I'm like, come on, Mercury. Are we in agreement that this is it for Diana or are the Mercury trying to just sell a few more tickets these last few home games and then next year it'll come back? If this is it, what are we feeling?
- [19:41]
Dijonay
I mean, I think they are definitely trying to create some interest and make sure people know to appreciate Diana Taurasi in the moment. You know, you spent some time around Diana during the Olympics and, you know, I think it was pretty clear that this is her last Olympic Games that she is going to be playing in. She will be maybe sitting courtside with a beverage in the LA Olympics that are upcoming. You know, I think the question with Diana Taurasi is, you know, her best friend Sue Bird obviously had this long retirement tour and I think Taurasi would be celebrated in much the same way that Sue Bird was. But it does certainly seem like, you know, with these tweets that the Phoenix Mercury are putting out, that this is might just be a quieter exit, that one of the all time greats does just say goodbye and she says it kind of on her terms, in her way. It can't. You kind of get the sense that like we're building towards retirement, there's no reporting there. It's just like pure speculation. But why else would they be putting out like these little teases right now if they didn't think that there was a good possibility of this happening? I mean, I think it's such a funny device that they're using on social media, like, Chantel, you know, you are, you are married. You are the only person who is married on this podcast. And I just think about, like, if your partner just the whole time was like, if I'm going to propose today, if I'm going to propose today, if I'm going to propose today, like something like that in the lead up to an engagement, you know, would that draw you in? Would that.
- [21:13]
Sabrina
No, you would leave that person. You would leave that person. Just for any of the listeners, if you're considering proposing to your partner and you're gonna approach them every day and say, if I propose to you today, that is not the partner you want for life. My two cents. Sorry, continue. Ben.
- [21:28]
Dijonay
It's just like such a funny way to flag awareness. And I think I, like you have had the same reaction of are we missing something? Or they'll both tweet. And it's, you know, everyone is just like in a frenzy. But why would they put these tea leaves out if there was truly nothing to them?
- [21:47]
F
I mean, part of it, I think, is distracting from what has been a terrible post Olympic stretch for the Phoenix Mercury. Let's just, you know, get some good press in here. We've got Diana Tarazi in the building for Lord knows how many more games, and that's obviously a much better draw than a team that is three and seven in their last 10 games. And all of their wins since the break, I think, have come against Chicago and Atlanta, which isn't exactly the, the mark of a peaking team at postseason time. But, I mean, I'm with Ben. Like, I think the only thing that has kept Diana Going since 2021 was the idea of, I want to be in one more Olympics. So I'm not going to be in the Olympics if I'm not in the wnba. And not only is the next Olympics four years out instead of three because of, you know, the COVID situation between Tokyo and Paris. She's already 42 years old. She spent 20 years with the Phoenix Mercury. I think these are like, nice round numbers that she can end her career on. She hit the 10,000 mark. You know, I don't think this team is built to get any better next season with her if this is the way she wants to retire. Like, I think it's perfectly in character for Diana Taurasi to not have a farewell tour, but to at least, you know, throw the, throw a bone to the Phoenix fans and say, hey, like, I'm not going to tell you because it's none of your goddamn business. I'm Diana De Rossi, but you've meant a lot to me over the last 20 years. So buy some tickets.
- [23:04]
Dijonay
And they just last week celebrated the 10th anniversary of the 2014 title team. And I think that was another, you know, just nice gesture from the organization to her, to other members of that team, to Brittany Griner, to Penny Taylor, to Sandy Brondello, Deanna Bonner, who was against the Connecticut Sun. So she was back in attendance. Like, to me, that was a another example of Phoenix just trying to celebrate the greatness that they've had and doing it before the end of the season, because better to do it now when Diana is still playing and present and, like, wants to be there, then just, like, have this, you know, anniversary pass without much acknowledgment and, you know, without just acknowledging her greatness, which is something that I think, you know, if and when she does retire, like, everyone will do. And justifiably so. As we said, one great to another.
- [23:51]
Sabrina
There aren't a ton of ways that I would say Tara Vandiver and Diana Taurasi are similar, but when you look at their careers in terms of, like, the longevity, Tara walks away at the top of the college game with the most wins of all time. Diana, whenever she walks away, is going to walk away as the leading scorer in W history. Diana obviously had the floor named after her, the court named after her earlier this year with the Mercury. Tara's happened after she retired. But the way that I really think they're probably the most similar is that I 100% expect Diana Taurasi's retirement announcement to come at, like, 10:30pm on a Tuesday, which is what Tara did. You know, I was, like, getting into bed and I checked my phone one last time, and I was like, tara, come on, really? And I got up and, you know, went downstairs and wrote a column about TARA. But I 100% expect Diana to, whether it's, you know, 3am during the playoffs or on a Tuesday at noon while she's out at lunch or at the beach after her season is over, to either send a tweet or, you know, put out a press release, or maybe she goes on Sue Bird's podcast. Who knows what it is? But I expect it to be minimal, low key, random time, unexpected. I never imagine her doing sort of the retirement tour that we saw for Sue Bird. I can't see her really enjoying that.
- [25:14]
F
I think that's a great call that the announcement's going to come on Seward's podcast. I was thinking that or she's just doing the, you know, the Drunken Solo Cup Final Four broadcast again. And just tell sue like, oh yeah, I'm not signed for this season. Didn't you know it's gotta come in one of those two ways.
- [25:29]
Sabrina
I don't know. But if South Carolina's playing in that, there's just like, there's too many jokes for her to make to also announce her her retirement. Probably too much low hanging fruit there for her.
- [25:39]
F
Ben, do you have a prediction as to how Diana Tarazi will eventually announce her retirement?
- [25:44]
Dijonay
I do think the Loki example is a good one. I'm just still thinking about the tar of andever comparison because I think it's a really interesting one that I don't think anyone else has thought of or is thinking about. And I just can't get over the fact, you know, Chantelle, you know, Tara as well as anyone in the media has spent a lot of time with her like Tara Vanderveer the water skier and Tara Vandevere the piano player. And I'm just trying to think of like Diana Taurasi doing either of those things. And I wonder like, you know, does she have a talent that is similarly going to occupy her attention and that you would focus on in much the same way that Tara does, you know, bridge or any of the other two things I just mentioned.
- [26:23]
Sabrina
I love the idea of Tara Van de Veer teaching Diana how to play bridge in both of their retirements. I would like to be a fly on the wall for this experience. I could see Diana getting into like golf. I feel like a lot of basketball players really enjoy golf. She might be into golf, we just don't know it. Phoenix has a ton of great golf courses, I believe, despite the fact that it's a desert, we can talk about the environment at another time. But I do think she could get into golf out there. Maybe pickleball is on the rise. She and Jewel could find some time to play some pickleball. Olympic teammates hitting a different court together. Maybe she's just gonna hang out with Penny, relax, not spend an hour a day in rehab and prehab as she has to sort of keep her body where it needs to be. I don't know. It'll be really interesting to see what she does in retirement whenever that comes Moving towards some, I guess, less than positive news for the wnba. You have a, you know, a score break the thousand point mark. You have the Phoenix Mercury just causing chaos on Twitter for all sports writers. A different kind of chaos, I suppose. Kathy Engelbert was On a midday interview show last week was thrown an absolute softball of a question where she had an opportunity to denounce hate speech and racism and misogyny and just kind of inexplicably had missed the mark entirely. I think it's, you know, that's probably the most basic way to say it, Ben. Maybe give our listeners a recap of what has gone down and your immediate reaction to everything that's happened since.
- [27:58]
Dijonay
Yeah, you kind of started to set it up. So Kathy Engelbert was on CNBC's Power Lunch, a midday show last Monday, it was. And she was kind of asked about, you know, from the host that how some of the discourse around the league has taken a darker turn. That was the host's words, more menacing term where race has been introduced and where sexuality is sometimes introduced and called into question. And Kathy, in her response was then pivoted and talked about how the WNBA is at the center of culture and sports and fashion and music. And she compared it to an era of bird magic moment in the late 70s and early 80s and this college rivalry between two stars, obviously referring to Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. And she continued to go on and talked about, you know, the one thing that I know about sports. She said, you need rivalry. That's what makes people watch. They want to watch games of consequence between rivals. They don't want everybody being nice to one another. And this quote went viral on Twitter the next day, actually, after Kathy did this interview, and pretty much right away, we started to see people online speaking out. We saw a number of Las Vegas Aces players kind of voice some dismay or write some dismayed messages referring to what Kathy had said. And by the evening, when WNBA games were starting to go on, players were, you know, started to be asked about it. So Dijonay Carrington of the Connecticut Sun, Sabrina was out in LA and asked her about it, and she used the word. You know, there was a silver, a silver platter to just address it. Obviously you can't control what people are going to say. Carrington continued, what people are going to do, what they're going to tweet out. But that has nothing to do with what you can do in using your voice and your platform to try and stop it. Carrington went on to use the word that Kathy basically fumbled this situation. Brianna Stewart of the New York Liberty kind of have voiced a very similar sentiment. And Kathy Ungalbert, you know, did that night, you know, apologize in apology. In an apology that I think still rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. She just tweeted. To be clear, there is nothing. There is absolutely no place for hate or racism of any kind in the WNBA or anywhere else. But that was after all these player comments. This was after the WNBPA and executive director Terry Jackson called out Kathy Engelbert for her comment and how she handled the question. A lot had been done, A lot had been done, a lot had been said. And we have subsequently seen Kathy apologize in a letter to players at the league. But I think it was another example of, I would say, like a growing distrust or it just raised some flags among players. Of whose side is Kathy really on? And yes, I think she works for the owners and, you know, they are paying her salary and she works for the league. But, you know, I think players wanted to see more alignment, to see more allyship and just see an answer that, you know, is the more decent answer, I guess. And I think a lot of them really came away disappointed. And I guess we'll have to see what the ripple effect is between players and Kathy, especially knowing that there's a potential labor dispute brewing. I don't think any of this helps her cause, and that's not exactly what she was asked about, but it is important context when thinking about her comments, too.
- [31:02]
F
And it is just a reminder of what it means when a league is growing. Right. Like, you know, Angel Reese has had AI images doctored of her, you know, that have been sent to her. And I think she said in our podcast that she'd been followed around in Chicago. Players have had to delete their social media. There's just been a, as the question alluded to, just a darker, more menacing turn to some of the interactions with players online. And, you know, unfortunately, this is a byproduct of what happens when the WNBA is in the national discourse more often and the league has become more popular. And it is a topic of discussion, you know, on all of these social media circles. I think it's something that the league should have considered considering, you know, what happened with Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark in college and knowing that some of that energy was going to be brought to the professional fan bases. It's probably something that wasn't really thought of all that carefully before, you know, this happened during the 2024 season. So I think what Ben said about, you know, just the players feeling like the commissioner's on their side and wanting to know that they're being taken care of by the league is probably something that is on their minds as they consider whether they're going to opt out of this current collective bargaining agreement by the end of the season. But I think it's more just a reminder of, like, all of the growing pains that the WNBA has to go through as it takes more prominent position in the national discourse. And like, naturally, this is terrible, but it's something that the league needs to address because I don't think it's going to go away any.
- [32:25]
Sabrina
I just feel like it's the job of every commissioner in any professional sports league, or even you look at, like, the ncaa, Charlie Baker, like, it is part of their job to understand, for lack of a better term, their stakeholders, to understand the people that you are representing, the people that you are serving, working for, whatever, right? Like, it doesn't take that much work for her to read some of the comments online, to go on Instagram and read the comments that people are leaving, specifically black players in this league to read, you know, the tweets that are being sent. Like, that is not a heavy lift for someone. And I'm not saying that Kathy or any other commissioner has a ton of free time to just sit around, but I don't think this is wasted time for her. I think it's important for her to understand the experiences of her players because they are her players. This is her league, she is the commissioner. And I think it's important for her to, you know, step into that and sort of see what these players are going through so that she can better understand it. And I think if she had done that, her answer would have been pretty significantly different the first time around. All right, let's take a quick break here. And on the other side, we are going to get into what will be the final few days of this regular season WNBA finale. As we look toward the last few days of the season, the playoffs start this weekend. We're going to be all over the country following this league through the playoffs and the March towards the 2024 WNBA title. It looks like the Minnesota Links and the New York Liberty are the two favorites, I would say, in this WNBA Finals matchup. As someone who is living in Minneapolis and would have a very short commute to those games, I am a fan of that. Ben, right now, as you see it, who is your favorite to win the WNBA Finals at this point in the season?
- [34:23]
Dijonay
It's a brutally hard question, honestly, because the New York Liberty are going to get the number one seed and home court advantage throughout the playoffs and their fan base has been excellent this year. And New York plays really well at home. And there are a lot of positive signs learning from last year's finals. Obviously the talent on the roster, how Brianna Stewart is playing of late, how Jonquil Jones can play just. And Sabrina Unescu, who might be playing at a all WNBA first team level. But the New York Liberty have not looked very good against some of the league's best competition over the last two weeks. They barely, emphasis on barely, beat the Las Vegas Aces after being up 20 points at one point on their home court in a game in which Las Vegas did not have Asia Wilson. Then this past Sunday, New York played the Minnesota Links and, you know, got punched in the mouth. And that's words from Sandy Brondello that she used post game, that New York was punched right away, that they did not come out ready to play, that they played with little to no energy, that they did not look like the team that had jumped out to, you know, tied their franchise best start in franchise history, that is going to be the number one seed. It looked like a very different New York team until the fourth quarter when Sandy played some different lineups than she normally plays. And suddenly they played with a little bit more energy and they made the game competitive. And so the final score, 88 to 79, reflects a decently close game, but it was not that close. And so like, I still, I guess, lean New York because of the roster talent and because of the home court and because of their body of work, but boy, is it tough. Like, the way they have played is not inspiring at all. And it's really hard to flip, like, flip the switch come postseason time. And if you're a New York Liberty fan, I feel like you have to be a little bit nervous that Sabrina Unescu is shooting it, you know, well below her levels from last year, even though she's getting to the rim more, even though she has this floater that is new to her game, that they've just played two of the three best teams, their top competitors in the league, and they have not exactly put on great performances. And so if you want your team to be playing their best, New York is not doing that. And so there is a ton of reason to pause and hence the hesitation as I talk out this answer that I see Sabrina is just reacting to because I think you're gonna come on with a fire take here about who you think is going to be the favorite to win the title.
- [36:51]
F
All right, well, to be clear, I did put my name next to the Minnesota Lynx as my projected champion at this point on September 16th of the 2024 season. But I think what you said about flipping the switch is really interesting because weren't we having the same conversation last year about the Las Vegas Aces looking pretty blah during the month of August? They lost two games in New York. Their numbers after the Candace Parker injury were significantly below what they were at the start of the season. And we weren't sure if they were the same team, you know, that was running through the league at the start of the year. And all of a sudden the playoffs start and voila, with the extra rest, with the spaced out cadence of games, Las Vegas looks just as good as they always did. And the fact that we were, you know, reckoning with them against New York Liberty seemed pretty silly by the end of game four, right when they won that game without Chelsea Granke as stokes. And so I look at Minnesota and New York and you know, New York is having a similar second half swoon. I think the post Olympic stretch has just been a lot harder, you know, for all of the players who were in Paris, just to varying degrees and that fatigue just sets in, especially when you have pretty big lead. You know, you, Ben and I, we've talked about this. I don't pay that much attention to fourth quarter comebacks. Like the fact that they blew a 20 point lead to Vegas doesn't really scare me all that much because letdowns are just natural. But you know, to maintain that pace of what New York did over the course of an entire 40 game regular season is just really hard, especially with that month break. And you know, their body of work still suggests that hey, this is the best team in the league. You know, we shouldn't be discounting everything that happened over the first 25 games just because Sabrina Nescu can't make a three since, you know, she came back from Paris. Then again, I do think that the matchups really matter here. And the fact that Minnesota is now 3 and 1 against New York during this regular season and the Commissioners cup they've won multiple games away from their home court. You mentioned the Barclays factory. Like the fact that New York couldn't protect their own home court against the Lynx is a little concerning. And Jonquil Jones is just an absolute non factor in these games. You know, they make that run in the fourth quarter with Niara Savile playing the five as opposed to JJ and when you're a third all WNBA potential candidate can't even stay on the court in a game against possibly your biggest rival for a championship. That is very, very worrisome to me. And she has just been bad in these losses to the Lynx like single point outputs in both. All three of those losses, they crowd her. She gets really frustrated, commits a lot of offensive fouls, pretty much takes herself out of these games against the Lynx. And that, to me is really what is turning my favorite status to Minnesota. It's not so much that I think, you know, Minnesota has shown in 15 games, they're better than what New York was over 40. Although, you know, Minnesota's lost one game, I think since the Olympic break, which is pretty impressive. But it's really just the particular battle that they have against New York, the fact that their congestion defense works so well to keep New York out of what they want to do on offense. Like, New York is one of those paint to great type of teams where they need to touch the paint before good things happen on offense. And Minnesota is just not allowing any of that to happen. And I really think that it's just the Lynx in particular, that individual bugaboo that's making me, you know, move the Liberty from my favorite status. Although, you know, we could get to a point where the Minnesota Lynx are taken out by the Connecticut sun and New York doesn't have to worry about it. But I do think that's why I like the links so much more, just because they seem to have New York's number in this particular matchup.
- [40:06]
Dijonay
I like that you use the word bugaboo because I think there is like a part to this conversation that is a little bit like mental, right? That New York, you go up and down the roster, they know and they believe that they are the more talented team. And that is true. Right. John Qual Jones, a former league mvp, someone who, you know, was playing at an MVP level for the first half of the year. Sabrina Unescu, she could be an ALLW team member yet again. Brianna Stewart, her resume doesn't need to be restated. Someone like Beni Jelaney Hamilton, who's been an all star in this league. Leoni Fish, could be the sixth player of the year this year has been one of the best reserves and one of the best defenders in the league. Courtney Vandersloot, a Hall of Fame resume, you go up and on the roster, New York has the more talented team. Minnesota has a great collection of players and they play so, so well as a team. And I think, you know, there is a little bit of New York getting stuck, getting clogged, getting frustrated. And it was the same thing we saw against Las Vegas, playing down to their competition a little bit. And I think that is one of the traps that, you know, we'll have to see if they fall into. And Minnesota is obviously an elite team, but I do think New York has this belief that like our best should beat their best. And that is probably true, but we just haven't seen that on the court at all this year. And Sabrina, I guess going to your first point about Las Vegas heading into the Postseason last year vs. New York this year, the one thing I would say is it's not like New York. Even though they reached the finals last year, their run to it was not all that inspiring, you know, either, right. They barely beat the Washington mystics in a 2, 7 series. They needed to get out of that game too. In overtime was a really competitive game against Connecticut was four really hard fought games. They even lost the first game in that series at home. Then we saw what happened in the finals, right? So New York gets killed in game one, gets killed in game two, picks up game three and then plays down to their competition frankly in game four with an under manned Las Vegas Aces team. And so, you know, New York has talked all year about the battle scars and learning from that and that the chemistry and then the cohesion is so much better right now, but yet some of the bad habits still reemerge. And so there isn't that kind of past history and that past experience that I think they can lean on. Yes, they've been there together, but it's not like they've gotten over the hump together yet. And maybe, look, maybe they will and it just kind of happens when it happens and we'll look back and have the exact same things. But I certainly, like, I can't really dispute any of the points you've made because they just have not inspired any confidence, certainly the level of confidence that you would think a number one seed should be as the postseason comes just later this week.
- [42:43]
F
Well, speaking of that past history and getting over the hump together, are we discounting the Las Vegas Aces here? Should they be in this conversation or have you seen enough out of New York and Minnesota to put them in a tear ahead of the two time defending champions?
- [42:54]
Dijonay
No, I mean, I think it's a great question. And like when we did our debate last week again, Asia Wilson, we started the show with it. She's playing at this level that we maybe have never seen before. And yes, Chelsea Gray and Kelsey Plum and Jackie Young have not had years that they've had in the past, but those three are still Olympians. They're still some of the best players in the world and can be on a Given night. Alicia Clark, we've seen how she can frustrate Brianna Stewart in regular game action and in clutch moments as well. We know that Becky Hammond can bring the most out of her team. I do think the home court advantage matters and I do think New York. I'm not going to say they've played their whole season to just beat Las Vegas, but like, you know, these are two teams that openly acknowledge that they are not fans of each other and we're going to see the series in the second round. I, I guess I lean New York still because of just their body of work here. And I think Las Vegas has some bad habits themselves that they're still working through. They're not nearly as good defensively. They don't get off to the same quality of starts that they did in past years. The basketball also has periods in which it sticks in a way that it didn't in past seasons. But if I'm New York, I think a letdown is also popular or possible rather that they get through Las Vegas and suddenly they play Minnesota and people think it's smooth sailing and it's not so fast because we have seen how Minnesota handles them this year. So the Aces very much deserve to be in this conversation. Very much. And if you told me in three and a half weeks or four weeks time that they are the three peat, they have won the title again, I would not be shocked.
- [44:27]
F
I do think it's interesting that we've just completely discounted the possibility of Seattle beating Las Vegas in the first round, but.
- [44:33]
Dijonay
Or the Connecticut sun. Or the Connecticut sun, who have, you know, handled Minnesota very well all regular season long.
- [44:39]
F
Yeah, I mean, I, I'm going to stick with the links right now just because I like the way that, you know, they have handled these matchups against Las Vegas and New York in particular. And even if, you know, for whatever reason they can't play against the Wings, like that's not going to matter in the playoffs. And you know, I think you talk about home court advantage. We've seen enough losses at Barclays for the Liberty and big games. I don't think it's going to be as big of a deal as if like Minnesota had to go into Las Vegas and win a series there. So obviously be easier for the Links to win a series with home court advantage. But the history of the Minnesota Links has been winning big games on the road too, in championship moments. And you know, I just don't think that that's going to be the deciding.
- [45:21]
Sabrina
The great thing about a podcast like this and the quick turnaround in terms of the WNBA playoffs is that you're both going to be right and wrong in the course of like a week. So congratulations to you both. But since we did tease it off the top of the show, Ben, I think we do need to talk about the swag and the gifts that you guys have gotten. You were bragging earlier, before we started recording about your ability to do a power ranking of the gifts that have been sent for the intent of wooing voters, which. It doesn't work, but it's a nice thought. And you get some stuff. I'm just curious right now. Top three. We'll keep it to three if you can do such a thing. I think an elite writer like yourself could, you know, edit a little bit here. So if you're looking right now at the six person mvp, defensive whatever you've gotten, let's just hear your top three. Let the listeners know what you've collected.
- [46:13]
Dijonay
I mean, brevity is never my strength, Chantel. You should know that.
- [46:16]
F
And so I should have pinned this question to me. Yeah.
- [46:20]
Dijonay
I mean, look, just for context, these are little, like small, little trinkets of sorts that teams create from their marketing sides that they try and give away and like promote different candidacies. I like that you mentioned sixth player of the year because so far of the teams whose little giveaways we have received, that is from Minnesota, Connecticut, Indiana, New York and Seattle. And there might be more coming. So apologies to any of the teams that have sent things that might be arriving this week. But of those five, you know, none of them, I believe, have really advertised for six player of the year as an award we should be caring about. So that is a race that I guess we're just gonna have to go off our eye test hard numbers because we don't have any kind of fun things to look at to vote off of. Sabrina, I see you laughing. I mean, you agree with the process behind that award.
- [47:08]
F
I think it's pretty clear that these have no influence in swaying voters. Although, you know, New York gave out a pizza box last year and the Aces didn't give out anything. And lo and behold, Asia Wilson did not win the MVP awards. So maybe there is some unconscious bias happening here.
- [47:25]
Dijonay
So the New York Liberty this year you mentioned they did pizza last year. This year they made a series of pressed juices. They partnered with a local juice shop, the Nourishing Spot in Brooklyn, and came up with six flavor combinations and created these custom print bottles and printed stats on the back and I think they use the phrase like we have the juice or something like that and package them in like a freezer bag. That honestly is a nice bag. Now I will say that I was communicating with one voter who shall remain nameless and they received their bag in the mail and all the juices had exploded. So I guess that is one thing to be aware of if you are the New York Liberty or any other team who's preparing to do a similar giveaway. This year, Seattle gave away this big grab bag of stuff. It had a tote bag, a T shirt, a small chocolate bar, some storm glitter, I don't know, stickers that you can put anywhere and like a very low value Starbucks gift card that I don't even think pays for one coffee. So Seattle just kind of. And a poster which barely touched on the players that they were promoting, but it touched on Ezzy, magmagore, Scholar Digging Smith, Jewel Lord decagumike, the Indiana Fever. They gave away two things, one of which has not arrived to me at least. But among the things that I received. Sabrina, I don't know what you have received was a broken records, like chocolate thing that looks like a record that is stuffed with some candy in it from the Indiana Fever with some statistics. A good giveaway so far. I've dug into that one a little bit, done the research. The chocolate is of a good quality. It has been enjoyable to dive into. And the Minnesota Links, they created some hot sauce bottles for Nafisa Collier that they called spicy and nicey. I don't think I would have ever thought I would be uttering that phrase on a podcast, but here we are talking about the Minnesota Links giveaway. And Chantelle, I have a question about that. And finally, the Connecticut sun, they just, they're known. The Connecticut sun, they do these packages every year. To their credit, a lot of teams are new to this, but Connecticut is not. And they did a photo shoot with Dijonay Carrington with these themes. Click it or ticket seat belt, seat on I think was the slogan. And Dijonay Carrington. And they made this little like car scent tag with her on it. I don't drive a car, so that really has no impact on me. But I don't own a car. I have a license. But Chantelle, my question to you before we rank these very quickly and I know not my strength. I know.
- [49:46]
Sabrina
I was just waiting for our podcast editor to turn off his mic, press the mute button.
- [49:52]
Dijonay
The Tater Tot hot dish. Can you just give us some context on the Minnesota link? Strategy here with hot sauces and the tater tot hot dish. What's the history of this dish?
- [50:00]
Sabrina
So I can't give you any idea on the strategy of it because I don't know. Because let me just say on behalf of all Minnesotans, no one eats tater tot hot dish in mid September. It is 85 degrees outside. This is a dish that you bake in the oven at like 350 for 40 minutes. There is soup. It's like canned cream of mushroom soup, tater tots, frozen veggies. I will say it is a very economical dinner for a large family. We had it a lot when I was growing up. It's quite tasty. Putting hot sauce on it is a nice choice to sort of spice it up or I guess, nice it up if you're looking at the slogans for the WNBA teams. However, it was quite the surprise to come down to a text from you saying, does tater tot hat dish actually exist? And I just thought to myself, ah, Ben, my good friend from Manhattan, thank you for sending me such a wonderful and stereotypical text. I feel like I'm your. I know you went to school in the Midwest, but I appreciate being your Midwestern authority on all things unhealthy foods. It's. You should make it at some point because it's a good meal. It's a good winter meal. It's not a good mid September meal. It's a good, like January. You want to add a little bit of, you know, a little bit on your stomach to keep yourself warm through the winter. You're hibernating. Have a little tater tot hot dish. Sabrina, I don't think it'll ever be enjoyable in la, but if you ever come East, I'll make you some.
- [51:30]
F
Sounds like a plan. I'll bring the hot sauce.
- [51:34]
Dijonay
I guess for me, you know, one of the things we have a balanced finals preview potentially, with the hot sauce hot dish and the New York Liberty juices. Still, my quick rankings, because we've already gone too long on this is I think the. I like the Indiana Fever chocolate right now. It's practical. It's good to eat.
- [51:53]
F
What about a broken record of chocolate is practical?
- [51:56]
Sabrina
I think it's. I don't think we can talk. You haven't even had hot dish yet, so it's like, it's unfair. Fair for you to even vote in this right now. I completely am discrediting all of your top three rankings right now based on the fact that you haven't fully Appreciated.
- [52:08]
F
I'm gonna step in real quick and say that the Seattle Storm clearly win this because they gave a tote bag with a zipper, which is super helpful. That's number one on my list.
- [52:18]
Dijonay
Singular item might be the New York Liberty's freezer bag. That is also a practical item. And the juices were not bad either. I must say, the hot sauces, they look good, but I am not a hot sauce person. So I guess we'll have to go TBD there and come back to this topic, though. We actually should never come back to this topic, but maybe we'll have to offline another time.
- [52:41]
Sabrina
Well, with that expert analysis, I don't know how you don't love our show, how you don't rate us 5 stars. Leave all the comments on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast because when you have Ben Pickman bringing you expert analysis on on both the New York Liberty and tote bags, where else can you get this stuff, people? Nowhere. Nowhere. I also just want to say that Ben Pickman is recording from the New York Times offices today and he looks just like a true podcaster because the microphone is hanging from the ceiling. It's an all white background behind him. He's got the big headphones on. I feel like we've hit the big leagues.
- [53:20]
Dijonay
Chantel. I think we definitely have and I'm glad we kind of got this show out of the way because from here on out for our listeners, you know, this is business time right here. This is winning time in the WNBA postseason. You know, I think we had a little bit of a grab bag episode today, touched on a number of different things. We ended it with some awards, some chocolate, some hot sauce talk. Who would have thought we were going to get into that on this show when we launched it just over a year ago? But the postseason is here, like we are here, and it is a sprint to the finish. Someone tweeted out over the weekend, Richard Cohen on Twitter, that the WNBA Finals now are less than 25 days away. That is crazy to think about. So, you know, from here on out, there is a lot of playoffs to be reacting to, a lot of games to be reacting to. I think we'll probably be bringing you this podcast more than once a week like we did last year over the postseason. So I know I'm excited. I hope you can hear it in my voice. I think, Sabrina Chantel, we are all excited. I know Xena is excited for, for what's going to come. There's going to be so much on the site on the show. So much to look forward to. Chantelle, do you want to close us out of this episode?
- [54:19]
Sabrina
Yeah. Before you know it, we're going to be talking about women's college basketball. I'll be back on the show more because women's basketball never sleeps. And we are here for you year round covering the wnba, women's college basketball and all things women's hoops. So thank you for joining us today for both our extensive rankings and our basketball analysis. We will be back with you as the playoffs begin, both in the written word@the athletic.com and here here at the podcast at the Athlet at the Athletic Women's Basketball show for Ben and Sabrina, I'm Chantel Jennings. Until next time. Good job, guys.
- [55:03]
Dijonay
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