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- [00:00]
Zena Kaeda
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- [02:01]
Ben Pickman
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- [03:39]
Sabrina Merchant
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- [05:15]
Guest Speaker
For.
- [05:15]
The Athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by Michelob Ultra. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Shout out to our partner Michelob Ultra WNBA Season has come to an end on a thriller of a game. The Aces won game four in a five game series against the New York Liberty. Took them down 70 to 69. It was an unreal, unreal representation of the talent in the W between these two teams. But they ended up getting their championship back to back. First team to do it in 21 years since the Los Angeles Sparks did it way back in the early 2000s. I got Ben Pickman here with me. We're going to break it all the way down. Ben, you were in the building. How insane was that finish?
- [06:27]
Not just a finish. I mean, from the very beginning, I think during intros, it was pretty deafening. Like New York has had a late arriving crowd, I would say throughout a lot of the year where that sounds like New York. Five or ten minutes before the game, there's just like a few hundred to maybe a thousand people there and then suddenly a tip off happens and poof, there's like 5,000, 7,000, 8,000 people there. This was like, oh, people are here early for game four. And you heard the noise. You heard it the beginning of the game. You heard it at the middle of the game. It got quiet in the fourth quarter. You could feel the tension in the crowd. And then, you know, the last minute blitz by the Liberty to, you know, give themselves an opportunity at the end was super exciting and enthused. I mean, the crowd was awesome. It was a great, great crowd. Credit to the people who showed up. Credit to the Las Vegas Aces for responding, weathering the storm, not being overwhelmed by the moment. Just a great showcase, a great game, a really close game, maybe not the best played at times, but a great energy, a great atmosphere. And I think everyone comes away from that game like appreciating the support that they received in game four and game three in the rest of the series too, for sure.
- [07:38]
That's the thing that came to mind for me was just like looking at the way that that crowd was into the game all the way through. Whether it was the way Jim Trotter put it in his article, he put out for the athlet, the pulsating towels, right? The towels go into the beat of the music. Or just as you watch the game from home, you just saw everyone was in it. And it was such a great depiction of. This is fandom in the W. And this is fandom with basketball, right? There's not this NBA versus wnba. This is. These are basketball fans appreciating good basketball, great basketball being played in front of them. And you're right I went straight to the finish, but from the jump, it was a really fun game. What was interesting, though, was looking at the way that it started, the Liberty were kind of quiet for that first quarter. Yes, they ended up winning that first quarter, but they were kind of quiet in comparison. Asia Wilson came out immediately, going straight at Jonquil Jones, getting that drive to the basket, putting it up, going straight up tough. And we were like, okay, this is going to be a battle. And, you know, the Aces have to come out because of the context around this. They were down two starters, and they really, really responded well. Yeah.
- [08:50]
And it wasn't that surprising, I would say, the start, because one of the things that Becky Hammond and Asia Wilson and others talked about during pregame shoot around was that the Aces were going to try a number of things that they may not have brought out in games before. Both of them. Hammond and Wilson joke that, you know, this is stuff we barely practice, we don't even know. And if we don't even know it, how in hell can the Liberty know it? They're not going to know it if we don't know it. And so it wasn't shocking then to see the Liberty kind of take a little bit of time to, you know, need a few minutes to settle into the game to try and understand, okay, what is the defense that the Aces are playing? What are the looks I'm going to get? How are these matchups different than the past few games? And you saw after the first quarter, you know, The Liberty led 2313, and suddenly, you know, after one, it was like, they've settled down. New York has. They look much better. And the Aces, after playing really, really physical, aggressive, and, you know, really good defense for the first, say, half of the quarter, their offense just struggled. And so, you know, I think a lot of people thought that's going to be indicative of how this game is going to look. And as we'll surely get into, the second quarter was not like that. The third quarter was like, not like that. And the fourth quarter was not like that either.
- [10:00]
Yeah, no. The biggest thing that everyone noticed, of course, in that first quarter were just the turnovers for the Las Vegas Aces. You could tell that this was not a cohort that played together. Clearly, obviously, they're down two starters, and they're also down their main point guard. Right. The person that's out there directing traffic. And as Chelsea Gray was doing as much as she could from the sidelines. I mean, she was literally a mini Becky Hammond out there in her crutches. It Was clear that there was a little bit of hesitation on some players of not quite knowing what their role could be. I really looked at Kayla George knowing, like, all right, I could put up these threes, and I'm gonna put up these threes. But even when she was, like, in the paint or had the opportunity to be, you know, with her back to the basket, there was a little bit of hot potato I felt coming out of her offensive game. But that was the biggest thing I saw on the Aces end, particularly in that second half of the first quarter. As you mentioned, just their offense struggling. What do you think allowed them to kind of click back in? Alicia Clark said to Holly Rowe after her first the first quarter interview, like, hey, we got 30 minutes left. We're fine, right? We can clean the ball up. We can do that. But, like, they're still not playing with their Kia Stokes, center, and Chelsea Gray, point guard. What do you think helped them kind of click in?
- [11:14]
I mean, I think it was their defense, frankly, that they knew that even despite struggling offensively in the first quarter, that they still held New York to just 37% shooting from the field. That, you know, New York had four turnovers in the first quarter alone, that, you know, John took one shot in the first quarter that Brianna Storr was.005 from the field in the first quarter. And that if they can keep it close, they'll just continue to chip away. And that was something Kelsey Plumb talked about a little bit after, was just, you know, they knew that they could chip away, and if they just chipped away and chipped away and chipped away, then they gave themselves an opportunity and the moment wasn't too big for them. You know, certainly someone like Chelsea, you know, kelsey Plum, she struggled 2 of 12 from the field. By all means, not her best game of the series. And Jackie Young, you know, played a solid game, not her best game of the series. And, you know, she went down in the first quarter hard, and it was a little bit of a scare of like, oh, my God, if she is hurt, then what is going to happen? But the Aces were not ever rattled, and I think their offense kind of settled in. And a big reason why you mentioned Kayla George, she continued to shoot it. You know, she had four made field goals for 14 from the field. I don't think anyone in this series would have predicted in a closeout game that Kayla George is going to make more field goals than Brianna Stewart. I think that would have been. You would have got some good odds on that if you would have predicted that and bet that ahead of the series. But, you know, big credit to Asia Wilson and, you know, we'll talk about her, I'm sure, in some depth. But a huge reason why they won this game was because she was the best player on the floor. In Wednesday night, she was the best player in the series. She exhibited her dominance on Both ends, guarding JJ, guarding Stewie when needed. She was efficient. 11 of 21, 24 points, 16 rebounds. She put the team on her back in the third quarter especially. She made key buckets in the fourth. And it was just, you know, a sense of belief that you saw throughout the Aces of if we can keep this close, we give ourselves an opportunity. And I think also there was a bit of math here, right, that the Liberty had more talent on the court pretty much at all times by, say, a full player. You know, if you're going up and down the lineups, but down in crunch time, you know, it's just a pick and roll. It's just in Asia, it's Jackie In Asia, it's 2 on 2, it's 3 on 3. Like the game slowed down and it's simplified. And the Aces stars were just better than the Liberty stars. I think, you know, in some respects, it was as simple as that.
- [13:46]
Yeah, you make a really great point around. When it does come down to a pick and roll offense, it's your defense that shows up and it's whoever is able to stop who's in front of them, who has enough pride, who has enough grit, who has enough quick feet, who has the ability to know the person that is playing in front of them. Right. You think about how Alicia Clark said that she broke down what she knew Briana Stewart wanted to do, particularly in the fourth quarter, and she played her straight up, but she was able to get in front of her, deny her the routes that she wanted to do, knew her counter moves to be able to get in front of her and stop her. And so it really did just come down to who had the better defense, who knew their personnel, the best.
- [14:26]
Right.
- [14:26]
And knew the routes they wanted to go. You talk about Asia Wilson. Yes. Yes. Like, I don't know what else to say. She was everything for the Aces. It was insane to be able to see her, what she needed to do for herself, for the team, but then do more, even more. I think that for me, her rebounding was tremendous. Of course she can score the ball. We know that she's capable of doing it. They made it tough for her.
- [14:55]
Zena Kaeda
Right.
- [14:55]
Guest Speaker
She definitely had to go through A lot of bodies and a lot of contact, but her ability to continuously, whether she didn't have position on Jonquil Jones and how to tip it out to herself or how to just jump higher, had to find her way through tough box outs. I was so impressed with just her tenacity on the boards. And when you're thinking that you don't have Kia Stokes. Right. You don't have that size. And again, Kayla George is the person putting up the threes, so she's not down there to help you out with the rebounding, to me, is another level that we saw of Asia Wilson, and we got to see her play basketball at a high level, and it was just. It was beautiful to see.
- [15:37]
And New York down the stretch, like, try. They switched up their defensive coverages a little bit to try and, you know, eliminate the effectiveness of a guard. Big screen. And so, you know, sometimes you had Stewie guarding a pick and roll ball handler so that if they're putting Asia in that screen, then she. Stewie is switching on to Asia, and you're eliminating the mismatch a little bit, but it frankly didn't matter. And I think one of the things that, you know, the Liberty talked about post game, and really it was throughout the whole series, is they were unable to just put consistent stretches of, you know, stops and also offense together. John Cole Jones was their most consistent player, though she was not. She was held in check largely in game four. But Asia Wilson was consistent throughout the entirety of the series. Yeah, you know, I think she had maybe a few plays here and there, standout moments, but it was just basket after basket after basket. Tough finish. Tough, you know, jump, hook, lefty hook, spinning your right. It wasn't one moment that sticks out in your mind from game four. It was all of it.
- [16:43]
Yeah.
- [16:44]
How she was so consistent throughout the entirety of the night that I think was so impressive because the game was. Had a lot of junk to it. It was a little sloppy. You can argue it was a close game. It was a great game. It was an exciting game. It wasn't the best played game.
- [17:00]
Yeah.
- [17:00]
Let's just call it what it is. She was consistent, and that is a huge credit to her.
- [17:04]
It's the entire package. That's exactly right. And that was the thing that I don't think anyone underestimated. I think everyone knows that Asia Wilson's capable. I think there were some people that underestimated how much that consistency across a game could actually lift the aces beyond their adversity of not having Chelsea Gray and Kia Stokes. I don't think enough people knew that it would, but there is someone else that helped with this load that they had to carry of losing those two starters. And it's the person that had a plus 17 highest on the final box score, that is Sydney Colson. And Sydney had to talk her ish saying night night. And if you don't know what she's referencing, just think back to the picture from after game three. Sabrina Unescu, who scored nine points, did her thing, but puts up a three, goes back down the court, does what her mentor Steph Curry is known for, does the night night celebration. Sidney Coulson had to make sure we are the ones that are going to have to tuck in the Liberty tonight, night night to them after winning the championship. But Sidney Coulson, man, and that box score does not reflect what she was able to do for the Aces. And I think, yeah, maybe if you look at her files, right, five files, that might, that might give you a little bit of indication of what she was out. But I mean, that very first move she did, right when she got in the game, got the ball on the wing, pump fake, got Sabrina Ionescu to bite, and goes, goes straight to the basket, gets that bank floater. I'm like, okay, like, I was excited. I didn't know what I was going to expect. That was her only bucket. That was her only bucket, but it was not her only impact on this game. She was voracious, like, she was just like all over the place on defense and she gave the Aces a much needed break right as they were rotating their guards through. And so I was incredibly proud of Sidney Colson because I think a lot of people, you know, look at that, that bench at the, on the Aces and say, like, you know, you guys are getting carried. And I was like, Sidney Coulson absolutely was not being carried in any way. She definitely gave the Aces a boost.
- [19:14]
Yeah, I mean, you, you said it. She was all over the place on the floor. She did also have that one behind the back pass. I think it was in the fourth quarter that brought a lot of people to their feed and was a real highlight. I'm sure she'll, she'll be remembering and playing back, but her activity was so important. Sure, she picked up those five fouls, but she did, as you mentioned, a really good job of just plugging the holes in Becky Hammond's substitution patterns. And that is not at all to downgrade her impact, but she, in essence was the swing in this game. Right. Kirsten Bell played less than two minutes. And so pretty much everything else is just Sidney Colson filling time admirably so that Jackie Young can come off the court for a minute here, a minute there, so that Kayla George can check out, so that Asia can get a quick break, that Alicia Clark can get a quick break, and that was what was needed. It was just kind of funny to see the Aces and know that that is kind of how Becky has coached and used her bench all year. Just normally. That's the Alicia Clark role, just kind of playing very well and spelling a number of different players to allow, you know, others to get their rest. And suddenly it's just like the chair shifted two seats over and everybody was moved up and Sidney Coulson was playing that role. It was just a testament, you know, to the Las Vegas Aces that they infrequently. And Becky Hammond infrequently uses the back of her roster at the end of her bench. But. And depth certainly came into question in this playoffs. I think a lot of people, myself included, and I asked some people about this in the series, like, what is the role of a benchmark in these finals with these long layoffs? Because you look at it, you know, Kelsey Plum's playing 40 minutes again, Jackie Young's playing upper 30s, Asia Wilson, the same New York and some of the key moments, the same minute totals. And you had all this time between games. So it's like, what is the point is a deep bench needed? And the Aces showed the importance of having players who could step into their roles when called upon. And, you know, maybe no one else better illustrates that point than Sydney Coulson and Kaylee George.
- [21:11]
Yeah. Admirably plugging holes. I would. I would agree with that statement 1000%. I absolutely love the way you put that. And there's another person you mentioned, Alicia Clark. Man, I mean, I almost get emotional. Tisha Penichero mentioned best interview post game interview of the year. And I would 1000% agree with that as well. Like, if you guys go see that interview and how just emotional she was about winning this, not only for what the Aces had gone through all season, the adversity that they'd had, the clouds that were just around their team at all times in the media, with their own teammates, the injuries that they faced, it was a lot. And then on top of that, Alicia Clark losing her father. And I personally relate, I recently lost my father in August. And I watched that interview and yes, I got emotional because of, you know, her saying, I know he's watching. I played for Him. And, man, I know her dad was proud because the way she played was. It was such a veteran way, right? She was so poised and so calm. I cannot put enough emphasis on how much in that first quarter, after going down 23:13 in the first quarter, she told Hollywood, we're fine. We're good. And walked away with a smile. And it was that level of, I've been here before. And she has, right? She has. She's done this before. She's won championships before. But it was. I felt good, right? I don't play for that team. And I felt calm listening to her just say, yeah, we're good. We've got more time. And everything she did throughout the night, the key defensive stops that she made, the putbacks right, her offensive board and put back her scores, I mean, everything about what she did for this team throughout the night was veteranship, was leadership. We don't have Candace on the court, we don't have Chelsea on the court, but we still do have veteran veteranship here. And Alicia Clark embodied that totally. What was her performance like for you?
- [23:32]
I mean, she made it tough on Stewie in game four, and I thought a lot back to game one, where right away she made it tough. And though Alicia Clark is smaller than Stewie, anytime she was guarding, you could just see that, you know, Stewie's kind of mid post mid range jumpers were just a little bit tougher, a little bit better contested. Clark was kind of in Stewie's airspace in a way that made it difficult. And we saw that in game one of this series, and we really saw it in game four. And it was almost fitting that, you know, Alicia Clark, a former teammate of Brianna Stewart, who, you know, I talked to halfway through the series and just was like, you know, does it give you a boost? And she was pretty open that, like, she's pretty familiar with Stewie's game. And obviously Stewie's game has changed a lot since they were teammates, but it helps when you know someone's tendencies. And obviously she is a student in watching film, but they practice against each other, they played with each other. Like, there is a familiarity there that I think made a difference in this series. And, you know, it came down to. Or let me rephrase, because no game ever comes down to just only one possession. But in the final possession, you know, Alicia Clarke shaded Stewie middle. She knew that she was going to get some help. Clearly, Jackie Young doubles. It forces Stewie to give up the basketball, and a little bit of mayhem ensues and The Liberty get a little bit rushed. Laney swings to Vandersloot, who rushes up a jumper, and suddenly a championship is won and a season is over. And, you know, credit to her, because if she plays that a little bit differently, maybe Stewie spins baseline, gets a turnaround jumper or gets a basket at the rim. That doesn't happen. The Aces win in four games, and nobody is going back to Las Vegas other than the Las Vegas Aces, who are now WNBA champions and are awaiting a parade.
- [25:20]
It was perfectly played. And I think there isn't enough emphasis on the fact that they were teammates. Right. She knows what Stewie wants. She knows the move that she wants to make. And, you know, Jackie Young coming in and doubling down. She called that out in her interview, saying that that was an impeccable help, and it was. And Jackie Young. Talk about a fourth quarter come alive. When you think about quarter one through three, only seven points, and then those key nine in the fourth quarter and key free throws as well. I mean, she struggled throughout the game, and then her size came alive. You could see just how strong she was in that third quarter. But ultimately, Aces got their win. Aces. I mean, I felt like I was there with them. I felt as if you could feel the burden of everything that was going on around their team from literally from the start of the season all the way through. It felt like there was a ton going on. There were comments and questions around what adversity looks like. Right. Thinking about the issue with de'erika Hamby and Becky Hammond at the beginning of the season, then thinking about Rakwana Williams and her arrest. And then you think about the injury, Candace Parker and then Chelsea Gray, Kea Stokes. There was just a lot going on around this team. You know, Kelsey Plum was asked about this, and she mentioned it. We've been hurt, sued, arrested. You know, being Kelsey Plum in that nature, I found it funny. I thought it was funny. Some people did not. I wanted to hear what your thoughts were on that and how you would assess the adversity that the Aces face this season.
- [27:02]
I mean, they were clearly motivated and they found motivation from all of that. And you can certainly disagree, and it is fair to, I think, say that, you know, an injury is very different from, you know, an arrest related to domestic violence and a pregnancy discrimination lawsuit, a former player suing the team and the league. And those things are very different than a player going out for injury. And I think that's fair to think that. I think what is kind of unquestioned, though, in the situation is that The Aces were motivated by that. And you can disagree if you think they should have been or not, but they use everything as fuel. And Kelsey Plumb voiced that and said just that, and she said the quiet part out loud. And you can say, were there any doubters of the Las Vegas Aces? Certainly, you know, some people, myself included, I picked the Liberty going into this series. But, you know, there were much louder doubters and critics of the Las Vegas Aces than people on this podcast and at the Athletic. But they found whatever motivation they needed. And you mentioned that you were there with them. I. I was thinking that, you know, I was going to ask you back. Is that because you saw all the live streams and Sidney Coulson live streaming, the. The celebration of them taking photos and them dancing and they're singing and just like the mob and, you know, just the. The crew of all the people that were celebrating around them that were just crammed in, agents, family members, team staffers, coaches, players, just all of them celebrating. And, you know, credit to the Las Vegas Aces for welcoming all those people, including the media, into their celebration post game in the Barclays center practice court. Because, you know, they wanted the night to be documented, and certainly the night was documented. The parade will be documented, and any celebrations that happen that they want to get out, they will make sure that people see it so that you, Zina, and anyone else can live it with them.
- [29:04]
Well, I definitely. I would agree. Those. The documentation definitely helped me feel like I was there. The live streams, all of the above, the dancing, I'm just. I'm happy we got to see it all, including Mark Davis dancing, that was. That was key. But there was another end to this. And we would be remiss not to talk about the amazing run that the New York Liberty had this season. I mean, you think about a team that when the season started, there were questions of, ooh, were these moves smart? Will these superstars be able to come play together and be cohesive? Will they be able to figure this out? And, man, they showed the league and they showed the basketball world very quickly. Yes, yes, yes. We are capable of playing together. And we're not only capable of doing that, we're capable of being a super squad. However, this series, I think when you look at the people that were expected to carry them to glory, you look at a Brianna Stewart, and you look at a Sabrina Ionescu. And then in game four, you look at Jonquil Jones and Ben Najulani as well, right? You add those. Add them into that mix as well. And the performance was Lackluster, in my opinion. That's my opinion, folks. That's not the official athletic position. That is my personal opinion. I think the performance was particularly lackluster in this Game four when, you know, you are, as Sandy Brondello said, hunting, right, that they are hunting because they know that the aces are weakened. The aces are a vulnerable animal in the wild, and they should go hunting to close this or get this to Game five. I did not feel like that was the energy given maybe until the fourth quarter when I saw Sabrina Unescu putting in her shots and getting, you know, pumped about that. I mean, even when she had to empty the contents of her stomach, I was like, okay, we are here. Like, this is the energy level. This is. I think we finally have hit the max here of what it looks like to be fighting for a Game five and to stay alive in the finals. But overall, I was just underwhelmed with the performance of the stars of the Liberty. What were your thoughts?
- [31:26]
And that's the word. A similar sentiment is what Sandy Brondello kind of talked about, that, you know, she felt like they didn't play their best game, and she felt that way after Game four, and she felt that way after Game two and after Game one. And, you know, I think there is truth to that. New York didn't play their best in any of those games. I don't think anyone would with the franchise organization would tell you that they did, or any fans of the Liberty would tell you that they played their best games. I think what's difficult a little bit for the Liberty is trying to now figure out why they didn't. And a big reason why was the Las Vegas Aces and credit to them. And we just talked a lot about them and all their successes and all their star power. But I think one of the things that is tough for the Liberty as they think through this loss, as they debrief it was, you know, they talked a lot in Game one, after Game one and after Game two about needing more urgency, needing more intensity. They talked about maybe their mindset wasn't, you know, where it should have been a right or they were a little overwhelmed by the newness of the crowd after Game one. That was something that was said. And so, you know, maybe as this offseason turns into next season and if this group stays together the way it is, that, you know, time and added cohesion and more time hanging out together and comfort on the court, maybe that will be a really big difference. And we've seen it with the Las Vegas Aces we saw them lose the finals in 2020. We saw them lose in the semis in 121 and now we've seen them win two titles. And some players this series talked about, you know, this is as close as we've been just because we spend so much time together. So maybe the Liberty have a similar, a similar thing happens to the New York Liberty, but that doesn't make them feel any better right now, doesn't answer any more questions. And you know, there are certainly some on court basketball roster construction questions that will be asked and we'll see what happens over the coming months. But I think there was also a little bit of internal reflection as to why didn't we play our best game and you saw some of those conversations. The word I think was disappointment was a word that Sandy Brondella used twice throughout the series. Brianna Stewart described her disappointment level after game four as high. And Courtney Vandersloot commented that it was very high and disappointment because I think they knew they could have done better, that they didn't play their best and you know, I think that is unfortunate for them but that is the reality that they are now facing as they enter the off season.
- [34:06]
Yeah, I can't imagine. I just recently watched Unfinished Business and if you don't know what that is, no worries, I'll let you know. It is a documentary that just came out. It's on Amazon prime about the New York Liberty legacy and their playoff run just two seasons before the superstars came and being able to make it to the playoffs but then being kicked out by the Phoenix Mercury. And if you're not a Liberty fan, you'll watch this, you might become one just because of how well the story is told, but also just getting to know the personalities of these teams. And even though a lot of the people that were on the roster during that documentary are no longer on the roster, once you hear the context of, you know, Teresa Weatherspoon and Sue Wicks and Kim Hampton, these are all legends of the New York Liberty team and their and their run to try and get a championship and then coming short and then this team the year before, last year having Sabrina Ionescu, having Michaela Onyenuere and not being able to make it further in the playoffs despite, you know, getting a bit Nigelaney and getting at the time Natasha Howard and now they've upped the game again, adding Breanna Stewart, Cordy Vandersloot, Jonquil Jones and still not being able to get it done. You want to root for them and you can imagine that level of disappointment and that level of frustration of being so close and feeling like you got all the pieces coming together and still not being able to get it done. So, yeah, there will be some very interesting off season conversations around. Like you said, who's on our team, but who are we? Who are we as basketball players, as people that are as champions or people that want to be WNBA champions? Because from what I understand, they're one of only three teams that still don't have a championship. Correct.
- [36:06]
They're an original franchise. I believe they are. They're the only one who still is existing in its current state. It doesn't. Yeah.
- [36:15]
Yeah. And the other two are the Connecticut sun and the Atlanta Dream. I can only imagine when you've got particularly the history that the New York Liberty have and you want that. I mean, even Becky Hammond dedicated a portion of her. Her speech after the game to owing everything about where she is and where she's at to the New York Liberty. I can only imagine what that feels like. Well, on that note, WNBA season has closed out, but the fun has really begun. It is now off season for the wnba. There's going to be a lot of good moves. Of course, you know, Ben Pickman and Sabrina Merchant will be covering it all. They'll be talking about what teams are doing, what teams need to be doing. I'm very curious to see what happens in this offseason. I'm also particularly curious to see the continued rise of interest within this league because this series was truly one of those moments where you get on Twitter and it's like, all right, are we all sitting down and watching this as a family? Like it was. Everyone was engaged, everyone was tuned in. And you don't want this, this fire around the league to. To dim out. You don't want it to. To temper at all. And it's a long off season coming up, but Olympics are coming up as well as next year. What are you looking forward to the most in this off season?
- [37:37]
Well, the thing that could be spiciest and most intriguing is that Brianna Stewart is an unrestricted free agent. Jonquill Jones is also an unrestricted free agent. You know, I have a story coming out on the Athletic. It will be out on Friday. I talked to Stewie about her free agency heading into this series, and she said that she told me that I can pretty much guarantee that I'll be cord since she's never been cord before. And she said she's happy in New York. So it seems like she's accepting and recognizing that she'll probably be back with the team next year. But, you know, Jonquil Jones, heading into the series, she said, you know, she told me, quote, my head right now is in the finals and then I'll go from there. So that's a little less commanding.
- [38:21]
I'm winking, guys. I'm like hardcore, like, wink winking. Uh huh huh. That's what players always say. I'm focused in front of what's in front of me. Which is true. Which is fair. Obviously fair. But by the way, I know you explained Chord in like one of our very first episodes. For those people that are listening and don't know what Chord means, can you explain that?
- [38:38]
Yeah. So the easiest way to explain it if you are a football span, we'll go across sport here is it's kind of similar to a franchise tag of sorts, in which players and I will pull up the specific language. Teams are permitted to designate players as a core player and they retain the exclusive negotiating rights to that player. And this used to be a clause that could be used for. I think it was like five seasons on end. You could just use it over and over and over again. And it was something that was used to really limit some free agency movement. Now those limitations have been cut down. And so it's something that is used commonly, but you can only use it, I think, one year or up to two years for a single player. So it is still a device that teams use to keep players and players then sign these max contracts that are fully guaranteed when you are cored. But yeah, it's just a mechanism to keep players similar, I would say, to a franchise tag or going to restricted free agency.
- [39:34]
Okay. All righty. Well, sounds good. I am very excited about that. That's very spicy to see what happens. Those are two very big names. And obviously there are some teams that could utilize those resources that they provide. I'm really excited. There's a lot of players that I can't wait to see come off of injury. You know, Jones in Connecticut Sun, Isabel Harris at Chicago Sky. These are players that make significant impact right, on their teams. And so I'm excited to see them come out of injury and be able to play for, you know, next season. I'm excited also to just start paying attention a little bit more. Thanks to you, Ben, to the overseas mix. Right. There's players already making their mark in leagues in Europe and in China. And I'm very, very excited to see all of that, especially as we go into an Olympic year, which is really fun for next year. So thank you Ben for breaking that down. I know you, you follow of course the Liberty throughout the season, but you write on all the entire wnba. So I know you've got a really interesting perspective and this was really helpful. It's been so much fun having you and Sabrina break down the wnba and we'll definitely have you around more to talk about what's going on in the off season and also what's about to happen with some of these people that are going up to the WNBA out of the ncaa, which is what we'll be shifting to very soon, and introducing Chantel Jennings into our rotation as well. Before we close out for today, any last thoughts on this WNBA season?
- [41:03]
I mean, I think it would have been almost storybook to get a Game five right. These were two teams that everyone had been talking about from really when they started to come together, when the New York Liberty emerged as a legitimate challenger to the Las Vegas Aces. And so there would have been something almost perfectly fitting obviously with Chelsea Gray and Kia Stokes out, it wouldn't have been perfect, but almost perfect in Canada. Parker too with it going to a Game five. And so you know, in some respects going it ending in game four is a little bit underwhelming to some. But I think, you know, the atmosphere around this series, the conversation around this series, I think, you know, undoubtedly positives now, there's plenty to improve on. There is plenty of big picture topics, issues, things that the WNBA I think needs to change, needs to get better at. We've covered a lot of those issues at the Athletic. When we talk about expansion and travel flights and roster sizes and media rights and media windows and these are issues we will continue to cover fairly and honestly and hold people to account in the league when necessary. Officiating, we wrote about that as well. But you saw the energy in Game four and, and that was, I think one thing that I think is will continue to carry forward into next season, that there continues to be more interest, casual fans continue to be more engaged and the games are just really good. Like watch the games, right? The players are great, the stories are great. So the league is certainly in an upward trajectory, a lot to build on and you know, hopefully for the New York Liberty, they continue to build on it and the Las Vegas Aces will have a chance that they're hoping to make even more history and three peat next year. And frankly there's no reason to suggest right now that they won't be able to do it. So a lot to be excited about. But we'll see how it all shakes out.
- [43:02]
Way to lay it out. Way to lay it out. And yes, the league is full of good basketball, period. And if you're listening to this, you probably already know that, but hopefully you share this with someone that doesn't know that, let them listen to us and can hear and learn more about the league because that's what we want to do. We want to just get more and more people involved and then loving, listening, learning, loving the game, as we always say. But I'm closing it out for today. We've got our off the script though, really quickly. I want to give a quick shout out to some NCAA athletes. So let's go the script. So for days off the script, I just really want to give some love to our NCAA Queens that are doing the damn thing. Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, if you haven't heard, Angel Reese just recently signed to be the face the rejuvenation of the Reebok basketball brand. Shaq just took it over. They've got Allen Iverson in the mix as a VP within the basketball vertical. And then they just made their first signing of Angel Reese. The billboards were everywhere, all over the Internet. Just really cool to see them kind of try and revive that brand. They had an interesting attempt at doing so by signing Cardi B rapper Cardi B a while back, but I don't think that she had quite the athletic connection. Obviously I think they were trying to do that for more of a pop culture perspective and it didn't quite pop off as well as they probably would have anticipated. But now you have a well known NCAA athlete. As Shaq said, you know, in his opinion, no one is impacting the game of basketball right now the way that Angel Reese is. And we will see what that looks like when the numbers come out. But I am very excited to see what she'll be able to create in terms of a new shoe or a new product under this new Reebok vertical. And then also Caitlin Clark doing the thing. Being a new State Farm signee, she will be appearing in commercials that is part of one of her new NIL deals that she's got going as well. Our last show we talked about the game that they had at Kinnick Stadium. Caitlin Clark and also Angel Reese. These are two stars right now in the NCAA and NCAA women's side at least. But period, I think across the NCAA they are huge stars in their own right and they are the galvanizing force, I think for why people are really tuning into women's basketball and Also making that connection from NCAA women's basketball to the wnba and let's just be real, feud that happened during the NCAA March Madness really got people paying attention and I'm excited to see it, going to see it continue to go. And I'm not talking about their feud, I'm just talking about their stardom, their relevance, their impact on the game. They have fans that cross over gen, that cross across age lines, that cross sports. Right. They are the new generation that I am just so excited about because no one was watching our tournaments like that when I was playing. And I mean, we didn't make it to the NCAA tournament. Let's just be real. But I don't think that there was a respect and an appreciation and a love like we've seen here right now in these, you know, 2000s. One thing I will say on that note, if you haven't watched Unfinished Business do, because it's not just about the New York Liberty, it also is about the W. And you will see just how energetic those first few games were in the first few years of the wnba. And I think it's stars like Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and then what you're seeing right now in the wnba, like a Brianna Stewart, like Asia Wilson, like an Alyssa Thomas, these absolute powerhouses of basketball players that's making the WNBA have this comeback, have this resurgence in energy from fans, energy from sports fans. Not just basketball fans, not just women's basketball fans, but people that just appreciate really good competition. So any opportunity that these stars get to shine, whether it's through State Farm like Caitlin Clark or through Reebok like Angel Reese, I'm for it, I'm with it. It adds more eyeballs to the game and you know, that's ultimately our aim. So appreciate you guys listening in. Shout out to an amazing, amazing WNBA season. Thank you so much to Sabrina, to Ben, you know, sticking out with us and breaking it all down all season long. We can't wait to continue this conversation, not only in the off season, but then also shifting to ncaa. Make sure you keep listening and keep learning and keep loving the game. For the athletic, I'm Zena Kaeda. Until next time.
- [47:58]
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