← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Can New York Get Back on Top? Will the Fever & Aces Start Winning More?
00:49:08
Loading summary
Transcript64 lines
- [00:00]
Ben Pickman
Do you own a business that's ready to thrive? It's time to let Intuit QuickBooks take things like unpaid invoices and tracking expenses off your plate so you can take things to the next level. Intuit QuickBooks is a powerful, AI driven all in one business solution that can help with day to day tasks like invoicing expenses and taxes. QuickBooks can help you unlock the growth in your business so you can get back to enjoying your business. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks your way to money get 90% off for 3 months limited time only terms and conditions apply. Money Movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. Licensed as a money Transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services.
- [00:39]
Kate Bittman
As a parent, I obsess over the details. What my baby eats, how they sleep, what touches their skin. But what about the water they bathe in? The truth is, according to ChemTech International, 98% of U.S. household water is treated with chlorine. Data from the U.S. geological Survey shows that 85% of U.S. households have hard water. Many pediatricians warn of the risks of unfiltered water, especially chlorine, which can decrease hydration in the skin's outermost layer. If your little one is dealing with skin redness, irritation or discomfort, Canopy's Bathtub filter might be the answer. Its Tri Media Filter reduces chlorine and irritants for gentler, safer baths. It's made from FDA approved BPA free silicone and fits virtually any spout, so installation is a breeze. But wait, that's not everything. It doubles as a spout cover and temperature indicator, helping protect little ones from accidental burns, bumps and bruises. Like all Canopy products, the Bathtub filter is hassle free and high impact. It installs in under five minutes. Filter changes are super simple and yes, you can even toss it in the dishwasher to clean. You heard that right. The dishwasher. Visit getCanopy Co and save $10 with their hassle free filter subscription. Even better, my listeners can use my code kanopypod at checkout for an extra 10% off your order. Hurry. Better bath time for baby is just a couple of clicks away. When you're starting off with something new, it seems like your to do list keeps growing. Finding the right tool helps. And that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of US e commerce. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping. If you're ready to sell. You're ready for Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com retail. Go to shopify.com retail.
- [02:46]
Zena Keda
Hello, everyone, and welcome to no off season. I'm Zena Keda.
- [02:49]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [02:50]
Zena Keda
And I'm. And today on the show, we are lingering in the CBA space a bit more. What have we learned since All Star weekend about where the labor talks stand in the W and what are the stickiest sticking points? Then we'll entertain some big questions that we've got for the second half of the WNBA season. But first, y', all, I missed you. Ben. What's up? It's been so long. How are you?
- [03:13]
Ben Pickman
You're right. Yeah. It has been a long time, Zena. I'm doing just fine. My life has been very busy and it's pretty unchanged, all things considered. I think people want to hear how you're doing. Your travels were how your life is doing. Because I've been on the other side of this mic for a couple of days now. You we're welcoming you back to the show.
- [03:30]
Zena Keda
Fair, fair, fair. Well, I don't know if you guys go back, like, four episodes. The last time I was on the show, you'll probably notice that my energy was, like the lowest it's been in forever. I was battling a cold. I couldn't speak. I had no energy. And then I just did about seven days in Mexico. And I feel rejuvenated. I feel phenomenal. I feel amazing. And what I really feel, I mean, beyond my own personal experience, like, really feel excited about, is that while I was out, it seems like the most amazing all star of all time happened. Not just women's sports, not just in America, just anywhere, period. All Star WNB all star was through the roof. It was everywhere. Like, don't get me wrong, I didn't watch one basketball game when I was gone. No NBA, G league, summer league anything. No WNBA games. When. When the. The league resumed recently this week, I watched no basketball is dribbling. But I could not escape the wnba. And it was kind of great, Ben. It was everywhere. All of my favorite people that I'm following that may have nothing to do with sports. We're talking about the pay us what you owe us T shirts. At WNBA all Star, people were talking about the stub buds. People were talking about all of these things. It was everywhere. I just think that it's dope to be able to see people that one. We're kind of like awakened and enlightened to how fun and marketable and interesting and entertaining the league is. Like, it was really like an explosion over All Star Weekend. Did it feel like that on the grounds?
- [05:05]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, on the grounds. Indy definitely felt like a basketball hotbed. Like everywhere you went around downtown Indianapolis, you saw signage, you saw fans, tons of different jerseys. I think I said this on the show earlier this week. Like, I think there was a little bit of caution heading into the weekend once Caitlin Clark was ruled out with an injury of just what would the energy be like? What would it feel like to walk the streets in the arena out on the town as you talk to people, fans, anybody who is there? And sure, like, her presence was definitely missed in the three point shootout in the All Star Game. There's no denying that. But like, the energy was awesome. And yeah, you know, you felt it when you walked WNB Live. Just the long, long lines that seemed like people were waiting, you know, 30 minutes, an hour more to meet their favorite players, to get that selfie, to get that autograph. There was an accessibility of like, oh, there's this player, oh, there's that player just kind of walking the streets. That I think was very cool and reminiscent almost of a Final Four in the way that the whole basketball community descends on one place. And you really felt that in Indianapolis. So that energy that you're talking about that you noticed from afar, definitely palpable on the grounds too.
- [06:09]
Zena Keda
I think you make a great point with the Final Four aspect because that was always the issue, right when it came to the popularity of the WNBA versus the popularity of the college game. The ability to connect it, the ability to bridge that same love and appreciation of the college game and the fandom from the college game. To get it to transcend into the WNBA space was tough to get people to follow their players in. And now it feels as if it's there that has truly exploded in which people are following their favorite players, but then they're finding new ones. And what's really special is the other word that you mentioned, which is accessibility. The league has always been one of the most accessible leagues in all of professional sports. It was their bread and butter, especially when they were first starting because they knew they needed to do this as a grassroots type of league, to be able to be there to sign autographs, to stay after long after games and sign every game, sign every shoe or sign every sign that showed up to games, to do the camp days where the kids will show up and they're there and interacting. And that was one of the things that the WNBA players always really relished was being able to be connected to the fans. And so I think it's so dope that even though the league has just like completely catapulted in this way in terms of visibility, I mean, we've got BET Sports covering the wnba, Popsugar covering the wnba. That's a culture account, including now WNBA coverage and not just like, oh, what someone was wearing on the, on the orange carpet. No, like actual stats. Right. About players. Even though it has completely mushroomed in this way, the accessibility is still there. These players are still connected to their fans in a way that is so unique. And I mean, I think the Stud Buds livestream was an example of that, but there were tons more of just again, being and feeling connected. And now you're seeing, you know, Hillary Clinton talk about this. Dave Portnoy trying to be involved with the Stud Buds. Like there's so many ways in which different people all around the world of sports and outside of the world of sports are trying to tap into that accessibility.
- [08:15]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I think there's kind of two things that I'm about to say that are related both on the business and the fame perspective. Like I think back to unrivaled for a second and the accessibility of players in that league who were just kind of watched their peers play on a Friday night, sitting in this arena, so to speak, that had, you know, 750, 800 people in it and they were just around and fans could basically just walk up to their favorite player or their favorite player would pass them in an aisle and they would get a selfie, they would get an autograph. And there was an incredibly incredible accessibility. As you're talking about, the Stud Buds very much also provided this kind of behind the scenes look. But to that point, like the players are, you know, you're almost getting the bang for your buck, so to speak, in terms of like where those WNBA players are right now. They are famous to a certain level, but yet you can still get access if you are a fan in a way that with some other athletes in other leagues, you might be able to follow them and connect with them, but you might not get that same access. I mean, there are all these studies for years now about you know, brand affiliation, brand affinity that fans feel connected to, more connected often to women's athletes. Right. That like they're more likely to buy a product, they're more likely to go to a movie, they're more likely to, you know, just in that, like affiliate themselves with the brand partnership. And you really feel that where there's also other bang for your buck of people getting in is on the business side. Right. Where you see a lot more people right now being like, my return on investment can be a lot higher if I affiliate myself with the WNBA or these players or try and buy a team. If we're going to talk about expansion in that context too and know that, you know, I'm getting more value for what I am paying because of what the current price is. So I think those two things are similar ideas. Very much both at play in this moment.
- [10:01]
Zena Keda
Yeah, it's a really great point. I mean, people have said for a long time that women are the best sellers of products. I mean, when you think about Betty Friedan, I'm going to bring on my, my women's feminist hat here. But like Betty Friedan way back in the day, talking about finding opportunities for women to get involved in finding their place in society. I mean, women started having Tupperware meetings and they were having Tupperware meetings in their little homes and being able to sell because that started things like Avon being able to sell makeup and talking to your friend. Right. It was just like if you're a girl's girl, you don't gatekeep, you share. And that's what it feels like the WNBA is right now. It's just like, I mean, Betty Friedan would be just wherever she is, rolling around being so grateful that the women are the focal point. And I think that that is what's really special about everything that I saw in the content from this past weekend is that the women were the focal point. These high powered brooms that people were in, that these players were in, it was not about men. And being someone that's covered the NBA, someone that worked in the NFL, that's been in this sports space from the business side and now on the media side. It's always been that you want to be at these all star events because there's men there, the big time male athletes are there. And, and a lot of times, a lot of, for little girls and young girls growing up, you always assume that to be in these type of powerful spaces and these and to be involved in these really cool spaces, it somehow has to be tied to a man. And it was really cool to have that completely reoriented. And these women were the focal point, period. Trust me. I'm sure there was a ton of attention around summer league in Vegas, sure, maybe. But the focal point in sports all up and down my timeline and just Looking in general across the Internet, it was the wnba. They finally had taken their space, taken up the space that they deserve to have. And I think that that's really encouraging, especially for the young girls listening and watching and seeing that you can be important and focused and prioritized in a way that doesn't have anything to do with trying to tie yourself to a man or get the attention of a man or any of the above. And that is really cool. And I think that that actually leads us perfectly into the conversation we're gonna have today because you've been talking about the CBA all week. And this is another way in which these women are prioritizing themselves and making sure that they're getting paid what they are, they are owed and what they believe that they're owed, and ensuring that they're going along with all of the growth that we just talked about. So I wanna talk a little bit about what you've learned through all of that reporting. And let's start back with that conversation that happened the Thursday in person negotiation ahead of All Star Weekend. Break it down. Who were the parties on each side of that table?
- [12:53]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, that was one of the big things that I learned and spent some days trying to figure out and iron out since All Star Weekend. Because we've known for a long time who is on the WNBPA executive committee, right. That is players like Neko Guma Cave, Nafisa Collier, Kelsey Plum, Brianna Stewart, Bree Turner. There are a few others who are very much involved kind of on WNBPA leadership, Elizabeth Williams being another. But I think there's been a big question of who is on the other side of the table for the owners. Right. Because that is the other key party here. And obviously we know Kathy Engelbert is in those rooms. We know that the league has, you know, a group of lawyers who they work with too. But I finally was able to confirm who is on the league's labor committee, which I think is pretty interesting in and of itself. And so, you know, the people who were at the meeting last week on behalf of the league and their teams were representatives from the Atlanta Dream, Chicago Sky, Connecticut Sun, Indiana Fever, Dallas Wings and Seattle Storm. There is another person who is on their labor committee, Matt Ishbia, the owner of the Phoenix Mercury. He is also on the league's labor committee, but he has not been present or the Mercury have not had a representative present at either of the in person meetings, according to my sources, in December or over All Star Weekend. So that's a really interesting group. I wonder what your reaction is. And then I can tell you what kind of, you know, why I'm so interested by that group.
- [14:17]
Zena Keda
Hmm. I, you know, no, I don't have any thoughts immediately. I think I don't know enough. I think I'm pretty much very similar to, you know, some of the folks that are listening in this and trying to figure out. I'm trying to think a little bit about like who also owns NBA teams, who also, you know, is in that conversation. So I'm going to let you know.
- [14:38]
Ben Pickman
That'S about right, Zena. Because basically the league's labor committee is composed of these seven representatives from various backgrounds, you know, different experience levels. Someone like Kelly Krauskopf is the Pacers or is the Fever representative. She's been with Pacers Sports and Entertainment for more than two decades. Basically, she was the Indiana Fever's first employee ever, before they even had a name, the Indiana Fever. She just came back this past year. But basically they have this group of again, various experience levels, various market sizes, various backgrounds. But if you look at that list, the six teams I first mentioned, Atlanta, Chicago, Connecticut, Indy, Dallas and Seattle, most of those teams are independent franchises, Right?
- [15:17]
Zena Keda
Right.
- [15:17]
Ben Pickman
Seattle, Dallas, Connecticut, Chicago and Atlanta, all independent teams. Indiana, you know, they're owned by the Simon family, who also owns the Indiana Pacers. So that's Pacers sports and entertainment. They've actually been in the league since the very beginning. So they're kind of the outlier there in Phoenix. Matt Ishbia, the owner of the Phoenix Mercury, also owns the Phoenix Suns, but he is kind of a new owner. So what is interesting to me about that group, and I haven't asked people about the dynamics of that group itself, is some of the biggest names, most high profile owners in the league who might be more deep pocketed than some others are not actually in that room. Right. So think about the size from the New York Liberty, Mark Davis owns the Las Vegas Aces. They're not an affiliated franchise, but they are not in that room either. Someone like Joe Laco, obviously new to the league. I'm not sure if there's a rule about why he could or could not be a part of those conversations. And look, I'm sure all the owners are getting readouts on all of this, but I do think that was one of the reactions I had or some of the feedback. I've heard that that's a really interesting list for the reason you kind of initially flagged. And then I just further emphasized, yeah.
- [16:23]
Zena Keda
No, that is really interesting, especially considering the Reason why I immediately went to ownership is because they would have the experience on the NBA side. Right. And they would have the experience to understand what does the NBA, someone that is invested into the wnba, the vision that they have for the league and how they want to grow it and how they want to ensure that they get that investment back. So. Interesting. Hmm. Okay. I don't know how you did that, but bravo getting that information. All right, so what progress came out of that meeting, and what have you learned that you know to be the biggest sticking points? Because I'll tell you right now, I read your article about what Kathy Engelbert said, and I've also read what the players said, and I feel like they're not on the same page.
- [17:11]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I think that's a fair characterization. I mean, I think the starkest example of that in terms of, like, a physical moment. And I said this earlier in the week, too, Xena. And if you did or did not listen, there's no offense taking you. As you said, you were living it up.
- [17:25]
Zena Keda
I was on vacation, y'.
- [17:26]
Ben Pickman
All on vacation. Living it up. Like, no harm, no foul there. I'll say it again. But, like, you know, in one room in the arena, Kathy Engelbert was talking about how she feels like this talks have been constructive. You know, she's confident a deal will get done. And again, she used that word, constructive. In the other part of the arena, on the court, the players were wearing the T shirts, the pay us what you owe us T shirts. Right. And I think it can't get any clearer than that. The two different kind of messaging that happens, that was happening at the same time. I mean, we. We had players say. Brina Stewart said it was a wasted opportunity. She said the meeting had a lot of fluff to it. Now, the league generally has been quieter on all matters related to the CBA than the players. The players have been pretty outspoken. They're clearly, you know, utilizing their public voice to message whatever they want to message. And the league has taken, you know, an approach so far that says, like, you know, Kathy spoke. When she spoke on the record, she spoke at the draft about it a little bit on the record. But other than that, we haven't heard from owners. We haven't heard from Kathy, you know, more than we did in some of those very, like, in those scheduled settings, let me put it that way. Not that, like, another interview isn't scheduled. So totally different in terms of sticking points. I mean, look, players have been outspoken about their desires for increased salaries. The current maximum salary is around $250,000 and revenue sharing systems. That is another key point of these conversations in terms of sticking points. Now again, the league would say, and Kathy Engelbert said this on the record, that she thinks, and she said this over the weekend, you'll see revenue sharing be in a place that is much more lucrative as the league goes forward. She also said that she thinks that they want to significantly increase player salaries. We don't have specific information from either side right now about proposals, what numbers are proposed, so we're a little bit in the dark. People like me are trying to find that out every single day, I can assure you of that. But like, that's what the league has said and players have still said we want to grow with the business. So yeah, to your point, that is where the, the crux of this very much is. You know, the tension meets on some of those two issues.
- [19:35]
Zena Keda
Yeah. When I read that you said Engelberg said this was constructive and Brianna was like, it was some fluff. I was like, oh, that doesn't sound quite right. So I understand that, you know, they also are looking at the family planning. I know that that was something that they had grown on in the last CBA. They were able to get a $60,000 stipend towards family planning in the 2020 CBA. But another thing that they want to talk about is also retirement. And then I really want to make sure that we understand revenue sharing because this was something from the last CBA that was agreed upon. But they want to change what that looks like. So can you explain like what particularly that sticking point comes down to?
- [20:18]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I'm just going to explain kind of revenue sharing and the salary cap and how they are related and not related. Because the question that I have been, you know, asked this week in various media appearances or just from friends is like this dynamic and people have probably seen a graphic about the NBA having a 50, 50 revenue split and the WNBA there is this 9% number that has gotten thrown out there and that is a number from a few years ago. And so I just want to like explain a couple things real quick. Yes, number one, some, some simple facts. The NBA and WNBA generate a significantly different amount of revenue and each league's revenue is allocated differently. I think that is fair to say that is totally accurate. It is a reflection of the NBA being what, a 70 plus 80 year old business and the WNBA being a 30 year old business. The two leagues also have different revenue sharing systems. In the NBA, players take home roughly half of basketball related Income, that's bri, while the other half goes to owners. The way I'm going to simplify it is then BRI in the NBA then determines the league's annual salary cap. Okay? There is a formula. It's based on a projection. BRI determines the league's salary cap. In the wnba, the league's current CBA does not use BRI to determine its salary cap. Okay? The CBA sets the cap for each year. So it is a hard cap. And it increases between seasons at a rate of around 3%. Okay? That is how the WNBA cap works. Then the WNBA has an additional mechanism for revenue sharing. So that is separate from the salary cap construction. However, and Sabrina has made this point multiple times on our show, the agreement was reached in 2020 when the league played in a pandemic or right before the pandemic in the bubble season and essentially made no money. And because revenue targets are cumulative, the WNBA has not caught up despite the rapid growth preventing the players from benefiting the financial gains of, like a revenue sharing system. Does that make some sense in terms of trying to compare BRI and salary caps and salary caps and revenue sharing in the wild?
- [22:33]
Zena Keda
Yes. And I think it's really important that BRI aspect, because people are number one. Let's start with this. And we've said this before. We got to say it again. Revenue is not profit. Revenue is not profit. Whether or not the WNBA is profitable has nothing to do with whether the players have helped them generate revenue, period. That's just, you know, business 101. That's important to note. But I think what the part that people continue to miss, and we've seen that. I've seen this on so many different accounts as people try to explain this whole concept of what the players are looking for. They keep talking about, oh, you know, the league isn't profitable. It's like, okay, sure, we can address the fact that The NBA took 40 years to turn a profit and the NFL wasn't profitable in about same amount of time. I think it was Sarah Spain that recently tweeted this out. The MLS is 29 years old and still isn't profitable. But that actually isn't the point. Profit or profitable or not, that actually is not the point. The point is revenue. And the point is that outside of their salaries, the money that these players are getting paid to put on their shoes, to put on their jerseys, and to go out and try to put a white and orange and sometimes black and white basketball through a net and a hoop and a rim that is their salary. That is their salary. Whether y' all go see these games or not, they're gonna get paid that money. Whether they, you know, if you buy a jersey or not, that money is paid. Whether concessions are sold, that money is paid. That is their salary. The basketball related income, all of the tickets sold, the media, all that stuff, again, which is differently allocated in the WNBA than it is in the NBA. That money, their basketball related income, is where revenue can be generated. And so I think that's really important to understand. That's what the revenue is. And that number, we all can tell, because look how we started this podcast. That number has exploded. They have made so much revenue. Has it turned a profit for the W that we don't know that. That's exactly what Ben is saying. He doesn't know those numbers yet. We don't know exactly what the revenue numbers are, but we do know the revenue is happening. And the WNBA players are basically saying, we want a more fair share of that revenue. Because the way they set it up back in 2020 was set up in a way that it would have actually been great. They would have hit their benchmarks, they would have hit their checkpoints and everything that would have gotten them some money. But they didn't because 2020 happened and 2021 happened when they were lowered. There was no ticket sales in 2020, at least lower ticket sales in 2021. There were lowered media dollars. They were lowered everything basically in those two years. And those are basically dead weights holding on in this cumulative number. And so even if they kill it in 2023, even if they kill it in 2024, even if they kill it in this season, 2025, it's cumulative. So it still has to aggregate with that number from 2020 and 2021. So that means. Oh, sorry, you haven't made the cumulative number checkpoint. And that's why we can't pay out this revenue share based on the check marks that we. Or the checkpoints or the benchmarks. Excuse me. That we set up back in 2020. And why does this need to change? When was this CBA supposed to end, Ben?
- [26:01]
Ben Pickman
Well, it was initially going to be a seven year agreement. So the, the, the players opted out last fall.
- [26:06]
Zena Keda
Correct. Which means if the players had not opted out last fall, these unfair benchmarks that don't properly reflect the revenue growth that they have helped generate would have continued into 2027. So they would not be able to capitalize on Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, Paige Beckers, eventually a Juju Watkins. They wouldn't have capitalized on it because they'd be still stuck from the CBA negotiations and benchmarks that they set up back in 2020. So that is. It is. So I love that you are breaking it down in this way because I think that is the one part that all of these accounts, no matter how much they talk about this CBA breakdown and why the players are asking for money, it's not to compare profit to profit from leagues. It's not to compare dollars in salary from other leagues like the NBA. It is to talk about what happened in their league in vw, which was we set up a deal that ultimately ended up being unfair and we didn't know was going to be unfair because who could have called? Oh, a whole worldwide pandemic was going to happen.
- [27:14]
Ben Pickman
So anywho, what what I would say, Zena, and I'll just make one, I guess one or two last points off of that is number one. And I have this in my most recent story on the site related to the CBA is that the league is closer. Personal sources I talk to closer than ever before to making a profit on a combined league and team basis as a result of the continued growth. And it stands to reason, some, that even under the current framework of this cba, which again is going out the window because they're renegotiating that with the record media rights deal. So there's this new 11 year deal or 200 million a season coming into effect next year that with that an increase in corporate partnerships and other developments, that the league would have an opportunity to be profitable for the first time since 2026. And so you also have owners who, you know, and this is totally their right, want to make profit for their team, you know, want their teams to be profitable on a year to year basis. And the league also wants to be profitable on a year to year basis. That is true about all businesses. The thing that is also unique in sports though, and this is a point that you often hear from a lot of the players, is you can observe the health of the business not only about how much you know what your profit is on a year to year basis, but in terms of a long term investment kind of planning standpoint. Right. So you think about the valuations of franchises and these are all things that the players have said and how franchise valuations have grown significantly over say the last five to seven years. Right. So the New York Liberty are a perfect example of this. Their current ownership group purchased the team in 2019 as a distressed asset. There's various Numbers that have been thrown out. But let's say it's around 10 to $14 million to buy that team currently, and I reported this earlier this fall, or earlier this spring, rather, they're valued at $450 million. So even if some people would say the New York Liberty loss, and I'm just making up a totally random number, $10 million a year since 2019, if they were going to sell the team today, which of course there's no reason to suggest they will, they would make a profit on the initial investment that they put in. You can also see, you know, again, the growth in looking at expansion fees from Golden State, who came into the league at $50 million in 2013, and the three teams now in who are valued at $250 million as an expansion fee. That was the fee for Cleveland, Detroit and Philly. So that is, again, change over time. So that is the kind of tension, right, where owners recognize that the business is growing and recognize pretty clearly, I think, that the return on investment in profit over the long term will also grow. But I think some owners, and this is where you get sticky, want to maximize their profit on a year to year basis as well. Right? And players are saying, well, that's great, but we also want to maximize what we can earn on a year to year basis because we're only playing year to year. We're not going to be here for 20, 30 years like you might be owner. And so that is again, why this financial fight, this financial fight is so sticky because you have different parties who have different perspectives and different approaches and different things they want to maximize. That's where, you know, that's where everything kind of comes to a head in these talks.
- [30:26]
Zena Keda
Different interests. Exactly. My last point about this, if, if all of that didn't make any sense to you, Mark Davis bought the Las Vegas aces for $2 million, $2 million in 2021. Today, four years later, that team is worth an estimated $310 million. That is over 15,000% of an increase in value. And are the players getting their fair share of that? Anywho, we will continue to keep you guys in the know about all the things CBA as this very important story develops. Ben, I very much appreciate all your work on this, and I hope that everyone listening is understanding and appreciative of the work that they're doing because we're one of the very few outlets that are trying to break it down to this very granular level. And if you have more questions, please let us know because we want everyone to understand this so that the players don't feel like they have to beg the public to understand and explain why they are asking for just their fair share.
- [31:41]
Ben Pickman
Are you a business owner looking to grow your business? You did what most dream of doing, starting your own business. Now you're faced with the reality of how to make your small business run smoothly. Intuit QuickBooks can help. QuickBooks is a powerful, AI driven, all in one business solution. That means those day to day tasks, invoicing, expenses, taxes can be done effortlessly. But here's where it gets really good. You don't need to hire a team of analysts to find growth opportunities hiding in your business data. QuickBooks can help with cash flow optimization, profit and loss analysis. It helps you see how your business is doing and uncover new ways to be more profitable. QuickBooks can help unlock the growth in your business so you can get back to enjoying your business. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks your way to money get 90% off for 3 months limited time only terms and conditions apply. Money Movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. Licensed as a money Transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services.
- [32:38]
Zena Keda
Is.
- [32:42]
Kate Bittman
If you work as a manufacturing.
- [32:43]
Ben Pickman
Facilities engineer, installing a new piece of equipment can be as complex as the machinery itself. From prep work to alignment and testing, it's your team's job to put it all together. That's why it's good to have Grainger on your side. With industrial grade products and next day delivery, Grainger helps ensure you have everything you need close at hand through every step of the installation. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [33:13]
Kate Bittman
Hi, I'm Kate Bittman from the Food with Marc Bittman podcast. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor. We're so excited to announce they've teamed up with Thomas Keller, Michelin star Chef of the French Laundry, on two special edition products, a salted caramel chip protein bar and a Yuzu Mango hydration mix. This collaboration grew out of Chef Keller's daily regimen of IQ Bar products and combines IQ Bar's nutritional excellence with Keller's culinary expertise. IQ Bar is free from gluten, dairy, soy, GMOs and artificial sweeteners, and 10% of sales go to Chef Keller's nonprofit mentor, which supports the next generation of aspiring U.S. chefs. I ran the New York City Marathon two years in a row way back in 2007 and 2008 and I consumed a lot of crappy snacks and hydration drinks. How I wish that IQ Bar had been around then. Especially the Yuzu Mango hydration mix, which is perfectly tart and super refreshing and contains three times the electrolytes of a traditional sports drink. Glad to have it now. And time for the Heat wave. Right now, Iqbar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all Iq Bar products plus free shipping. To get your 20% off, text bitmain to 64,000. That's B I T T M A N to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.
- [34:59]
Zena Keda
All right, the second half of the 2025 WNBA season is underway and we've got some big questions that need answers. Now Sabrina, who is on a much deserved vacation this week, girl, I get it. Enjoy your time off. She has a piece up on the site. Go check it out. It's really good, but let's dive right into it. The first one. What will become of the Fever and the Aces? Now these two teams have had some roller coaster seasons. Okay, you think, right, they'll have a win where you're like, oh yeah, they're going to kill it. I mean, I still vividly remember that Indiana, New York game at Indiana and I'm like, okay, Indiana has all the tools necessary and then we see them lose several games across the rest of the season where I'm just like, okay, I know Caitlin. Oh well, Caitlyn's back. Okay, you still lost that one. Looks like your offense is all right. Point is, both Indiana and Aces feel a little bit of a start, stop, start, stop, start, stop. Will either of them have an upswing in the second half of the season and what are their chances of making the playoffs? Ben, let's start with the Aces. Cause I also vividly remember the Aces losing on national television by several, several points to the Golden State Valkyries. But then at the, you know, right before the break, took care of business and took care of business of several teams going into the break. What are your thoughts on where they stand in the second half of the season?
- [36:33]
Ben Pickman
Well, I will say I kind of group these teams together because to me they're both teams that had high expectations and uneven first halfs. They have star power, they have big names and a lot of are just curious about why things are not going to plan, so to speak. And for both, I think consistency is a word you hear a lot, right? The Las Vegas Aces have been inconsistent on the defensive end. On the floor, we've seen some of Their star players be more inconsistent than they have been in the past. You know, Jewel Lloyd, Chelsea Grace specifically. They've also dealt with some injuries. Asia Wilson dealing with a right wrist injury, she was kind of limited in the All Star Game itself. She was limited just before Jack Young as well, dealing with a little bit of an injury. And the Indiana Fever, too, have obviously dealt with injuries. To your question of will they miss the playoffs, like, I think both teams will eventually get in the playoffs. However, I don't expect either one of these teams to suddenly flip the switch and be this title contender the way some people think. I just think that is a lot to ask at this point considering all the various factors that have led to, you know, Las Vegas, I think being 12 and 11 as we tape this and Indiana being 12 and 12.
- [37:50]
Zena Keda
Okay, all right. I do agree with you with that level of consistency, health also being a factor. But that aspect of having two of the leagues top players, it feels weird, especially when I look at the fact that, you know, Sabrina mentioned this in our article. You know, Jackie Young and Asia Wilson have been phenomenal. They're the star power around them, though, feels a little bit lackluster right now. Same thing with the fever in terms of, you know, we've seen Caitlyn have her up and down, a little bit of rockiness. She's now injured. This could actually be a positive for Indiana because they did find some sort of rhythm when Caitlyn was out in terms of their offense going and their defense. Um, okay, I'm curious about this, but it actually gets me into the next.
- [38:45]
Ben Pickman
Well, can I just say, I mean, yes. And like, they can be a good team when she is playing and when she is not. But just because she is playing or not does not mean they have been more consistent. We saw a prime example of that against the New York Liberty earlier this week where they played really well for half. And then Stephanie White said it, they played a little soft on the defensive end in the second half. They missed some assignments. They struggled to stop New York's personnel. They gave up a big run at the end of the third, the start of the fourth, and that was basically the game. Right. So Las Vegas, it's hard to bet against them with. With Asia. The last thing I would say, just on the Caitlin Clark front, we did get a little bit of an injury update on Thursday afternoon for people who might have missed that, you know, she got hurt July 15, a right groin injury. She underwent some further medical testing earlier this week. The team said no additional injuries or damage was discovered. However, there is no timetable for her return. The fevers say that the priority will be her long term health and well being. So that is a little bit of a no news news update as I think a good way to put it. The teams also play on Thursday night, so when you are listening to this, maybe one of them has beaten the other team by like 50 points and we can scrap everything we just said, but I think that's a fun footnote to the conversation we just had.
- [40:04]
Zena Keda
I'm happy you mentioned that footnote because we know that injuries do have a major impact on teams, especially in the second half of the season as people are making their way towards the playoffs. Luckily for New York, they just got one of their big stars back from injury and Jonquil Jones, but they might have also gotten another big piece. Or they did actually. Emma Meesiman is now joining the New York Liberty and that could completely change the Finals conversation. Uh, this is the 2019 WNBA Finals MVP Emma Meesiman. She might be the missing piece for New York to kind of leapfrog over a very dominant looking Minnesota. Is that enough for them to stand at the top of the W?
- [40:44]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I do think New York now with JJ returning and with me some in coming in and we should say that Emma Meesiman and I reported this, confirmed this. ESPN also has reported it first and other outlets as well. She's committed to signing with New York. Some people from New York have actually already started to talk about Emma Mieseman pretty openly, though she has not arrived yet. They still have to figure out her visa status and it's unclear when she's actually going to join the team, but they're obviously hoping. Jonathan Kolb said this told me and other reporters earlier this week as soon as possible. Just once the visa situation gets worked out. But yes is the short answer. Emma Miesimin has not played in the WNBA since 2022. However, if you watch any international basketball tournament, specifically the Olympics might be where casual fans have seen her. Most recently she was the leading scorer in the Paris Olympics. Most recently a couple weeks back, she led Belgium to a EuroBasket title, where she also won MVP of that tournament. She's played for the Turkish powerhouse club Fenerbahce the past couple years. She led them to championships in 20, 23 and 4. She has won Euroleague MVP honors in each of the last three seasons. Again, basically for years and years, some of your biggest, best WNBA stars would play in the Euro League. And Emma Miesemin winning mvp. That is just the kind of caliber of player that she is. If you want to know what she does for New York, number one. And Jonathan Kolb said she just wanted to win. We don't know exactly why Emma decided to come back now, but Cole said enough to say he didn't want to speak for her. But, like, winning was a priority for her. She also has a ton of familiarity with members of the New York Liberty. I think that is why this fit is going to be a little bit easier than some people think. I'm just going to rattle off some of the connections very quickly. She has played under Sandy Brondello and Olaf Laying, the top assistant of New York in Russia. She has played with alongside on the same team at one point, Stewie and jj. She has played with Natasha Cloud. She has played with Beck Gardner in Chicago last year. In Turkey, she played with Niara Sabley. Like so often, to me, I put this in the bucket of American fans. And no slight to anyone who's only watching the WNBA here, think about only the American connections. But like Xena, as you know and as anyone out there knows, like, if you work with someone on a job and then seven years later, 10 years later, you come back and you suddenly are working with them again, it doesn't matter whether you work together in, you know, New York, Boston, Quebec, London, Paris, like, you've built the relationship with that person. And I think those relationships, whether they were formed in Russia, whether they were formed in Turkey, whether they were formed in Washington, very much, you know, will apply to this New York context. And on a basketball level, you know, New York and Jonathan Kolb said this. They want big players with length. They want positional versatility. Emma can step out and shoot. She can also score in the post. She's a very good pick and roll player, very good post player. The other thing that I think we'll see a lot more of is point Stewie. We'll see a lot more with Brianna Stewart with the basketball in her hand kind of orchestrating. And that is a wrinkle because you now have multiple players who are 6 4, 6 5, super skilled. Yeah, it's just pick your poison. And it is a significant, significant signing at the halfway point of the year.
- [44:02]
Zena Keda
My goodness. I mean, you want to talk about Jonathan Kolb assembling the Monstars between getting Brie Briana Stewart to come over, John Cole Jones to come over. I mean, at one point, yes, he had Courtney Vandersloot, but just having this entire group come and assemble around Sabrina Ionescu, and then you add In Leonie Fibich and the Arisabli and an Emma Miseman on top of it. I mean, it's just bravo. Jonathan Kolb. This is if you guys are NBA fans. Like, yes, it definitely does feel a little bit Kevin Durant going to the warriors, but it's going to be interesting to see what happens in the second half of this season. But the target is on the back of New York and I bet you Stewie feels a little bit. She feels very relieved that she'll be able to play a little bit with her.
- [44:54]
Ben Pickman
And excited, certainly. Excited. Excited is another word we've heard a lot.
- [44:57]
Zena Keda
Exactly. I mean, relieved to have Jonquill back, but then adding Emma Mieseman I already know. Okay, so now, last question for the second half of the season. Which teams, if any, from the bottom half of the rankings will make the playoffs?
- [45:13]
Ben Pickman
This is a very, very good question, Xena, because the Golden State Valkyries have been one of the stories of the first half of the season. I think a big surprise for a lot of people. I'm just going to throw it out and you can maybe respond with your thought. You know, they are 10 and 12 right now as we tape this on Thursday, you have the Washington Mystics, who 11 and 12, arguably a bigger surprise, somewhat argue under the radar than the Golden State Valkyries. 11 and 12 play incredibly hard. Three players making the All Star team, right? Britney Sykes, Sonia Sitchon, Kikir.
- [45:46]
Zena Keda
Yep.
- [45:47]
Ben Pickman
Ton, there you have the Los Angeles Sparks, 9 and 14. They're kind of lurking. We'll see if they can mount a run. They've played a really difficult schedule in the first half. We'll see if they can have this push. But I guess Chicago and Dallas are also kind of looming with seven wins each. That's where everything stands. I'll respond after using it. What do you think happens at the bottom of the standings here?
- [46:09]
Zena Keda
Oh, yeah, I my faith is in the Golden State Valkyries, not because I cover them. I'm not biased in that way. But Golden State Valkyries also just added Ileana Rupert and you were just talking about those connections of people, you know, you've worked with, you've been in the trenches with Ileana, had time with Natalie Nikase in in Vegas and that's a stretch five that adds some size. That was one of the things that they needed behind Temifag Benle and Monique Billings. So I absolutely think that that's a possible possibility. And if I was to choose one, interestingly enough, I don't know if you guys remember how Los Angeles closed out. Like they've been four in one in their last five games. Like they're kind of like picking up steam a little bit. I, I really, I think that if there's one, if there's one team to do it. Even though the Golden State Valkyries kind of went into All Star break kind of skidding a little bit, I think they're going to pick it up after the rest and kind of sink deeper into their identity. Now. The interesting part about this though is this could impact whoever doesn't make it. These are all teams that could very much benefit from getting a draft pick. And if you are the first person out of the playoffs, you're going to like pick 8th in this next coming draft. So I'm kind of like, I almost, I don't know, I don't know how I feel for some of these teams. I'm looking at the future of all these teams. Mystics, Valkyrie, Sparks, Sky, Wings, sun, they all need some high picks. So if there's anyone that could probably withstand it, it's the Golden State Valkyries. And the way they're playing, I think it's them. What do you. What about you?
- [47:48]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, and the reason why, you know, we've kind of said and maybe this is unfair but, but these teams are all competing for maybe just one spot because you have New York and Minnesota, you have Phoenix, Seattle, Atlanta, Indy and Vegas. And if you think both India and Vegas will make the playoffs, then that leaves just one spot left for all the other teams we have just talked about. I think if Washington wanted to keep their roster together and didn't make any moves that actually I would pick them to be the final playoff team. However, I'm not fully confident that that is the case. Like I think they are a pretty. They are a team ripe to potentially make a move before the trade deadline to trade away in Aaliyah Edwards, potentially to trade a Brittany Sykes. This is all speculative here. This is not reported, I should say. But if they wanted to potentially rework their roster to obtain more future assets that set them up in a best position to succeed, they're well positioned to do that and they have some players, you know, on cost effective contracts that certainly have value around the league. So we, I think have seen enough from Washington this year just to know that like they are well positioned to have some future success. Now the question is do they want to have, you know, how much success do they want to have in the present? From a roster competitiveness standpoint.
- [49:10]
Zena Keda
That'S a really good point. I was thinking about Brittany Sykes being someone of significant value for another team and I can imagine Jamila Wideman, GM over at the Mystics. We don't know what's in her mind. We're again speculating. But I can imagine the future is in her mind. And when you look at how bright the rookies that she has already on her team and the youth that she has already on her team, I can imagine potentially wanting to just build off of that. I don't know though. I don't know. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's not perfectly fixed, but it could be worth sticking with and seeing what you can do in the second half of the season. So we'll have to see. All right. Mystics, Valkyries. Well, you guys keep record at home. We'll see what happens at the end of the season.
- [50:08]
Kate Bittman
Bombas makes the most comfortable socks, underwear and T shirts.
- [50:11]
Ben Pickman
Warning. Bombas are so absurdly comfortable you may throw out all your other clothes.
- [50:15]
Kate Bittman
Sorry, do we legally have to say that?
- [50:18]
Ben Pickman
No, this is just how I talk.
- [50:19]
Zena Keda
And I really love my Bombas.
- [50:20]
Kate Bittman
They do feel that good. And they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated. To feel good and do good, go to bombas.com and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S dot com and use code audio at checkout.
- [50:34]
Ben Pickman
Comcast Business High Five hotline. I signed my business up for the five year price lock guarantee and I can't stop high fiving people.
- [50:41]
Zena Keda
That's perfectly natural when you sign up for gig speed, Internet and advanced security. Locked in at a great rate for five years.
- [50:47]
Ben Pickman
Really? That's great news. High five everybody.
- [50:50]
Zena Keda
The Comcast Business five year price lock guarantee is back, but only for a limited time. Sign up today ends 92125 for new customers with qualifying bundle. Current customer eligibility varies by service and area. Guarantee rate applies to monthly service charge excluding taxes and fees. Other restrictions apply.
- [51:06]
Ben Pickman
This is Car Tracks with Turtle Wax. Your car says a lot about you. So if we asked your car what it would say about you, what would it say? Listen, you dropped one of those tiny.
- [51:17]
Kate Bittman
Cheeseburgers under the seat like last week.
- [51:20]
Ben Pickman
And now we're both dry heaving the stench. Do us a favor, grab some Turtle wax and let's get to work. This has been Car tracks with Turtle Wax. You are how you car.
- [51:40]
Zena Keda
All right, let's close this out. Talk about setting our screens. It's Friday so you know what time it is. It is time to Set your screen presented by BetMGM. Get in on the excitement of BetMGM with any sport. No sweat token. If you don't win your wager, you'll get a stake back in bonus bets. So Ben, what are you watching this weekend?
- [52:02]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean the games that I am watching, I will be at Phoenix and the New York Liberty. That is a game on Friday night. That is a very, very good game, I should say. I also have my eye over the weekend on Sunday. I think Las Vegas and Dallas is kind of an interesting game. And Phoenix, Washington again, another interesting game for all the reasons we said about Washington. So those are three for me. Zena, what are you watching? And I guess also what did you just watch on vacation? Do you want to give any TV recs or movie recs in terms of screens you have set there non wnba and then tell us the game that comes to mind.
- [52:38]
Zena Keda
Yeah, no, absolutely. My show right now is Gilded Age on hbo Max, if you guys are at all history buffs. It's a fictionalized account of the era basically right during like the robber baron era, like Jay Gould and JP Morgan and all these like wealthy men in New York making their ways through New York and old money versus new money. And it's the costuming, the writing. There's a ton of great like true actors from, you know, from Broadway to the movies. We've grown up watching like it is a star studded cast and I'm obsessed with it. It's so good. And I'm slowly learning that other people are watching this too. So Gilded Age, definitely check that out. Other ones that I'm watching, I'll have to say I think I like the Aces wings. I'm also looking at that. I'll back up a little bit. I'm looking at the Sparks Liberty and the main reason I'm doing that is because they're on a roll and they're feeling confident and I feel like anytime a team in the bottom half can go up against a team in the top half and that's, that's like your litmus test to see are we actually playing as well as we think? Are we actually as good? And honestly, I'm not even looking for the Sparks to win that game. I'm looking for the Sparks to push the Liberty and I want to see what they can do against the size of the Liberty. And you know, of course we haven't seen where Emma Misa man if and when she's going to show up. But you know, it never hurts to see Julie Van Lew against her Belgium teammate if Emma does show up. So we'll see. But yeah, Sparks versus Liberty. That's where I'm at. All right, guys. Well, Ben, I appreciate you bringing me back into the fold. Yeah, we're happy to have you back. I mean, I'm back in. I'm getting back into it. I'm excited for the second half of the season and I'm very excited just to keep seeing where all of this ends up. The growth, the attention. We're going to continue covering these CBAs. Like we. We're at a perfect time to be talking and covering this league, and it's really, really fun. So, guys, make sure you're subscribed to this podcast because everything we're covering, like, we're going to keep diving into the games. We're diving into the business of this, this league. We're diving into everything around it. We're having interviews coming up. Keep an eye out for that as well. But make sure you're following our show to make sure that you don't miss out on anything. Spotify, YouTube, Apple TV, anywhere you listen to your podcast, we're there. If you wanna watch us, we're on YouTube. Please subscribe and follow there. Leave us comments, keep sending us messages, the emails, questions. We love it, we hear it, we see em. And they are influencing some of the topics that we're gonna have coming up soon. So don't think that, you know, it's kind of going into the V, the void. I mean, we're listening to you and we really appreciate it. Head on over to our partner, the Yahoo Sports hub, for more content at Sports Yahoo. Nope. Sports.yahoo.com Womens-Sports Guys, I just came back like literally yesterday, so clearly I had to mess that up one good time before we get back into the rhythm of doing it. Well, all right. On behalf of the Athletic, on behalf of Ben, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.
- [56:28]
Kate Bittman
Hey, I'm Trisha Hershberger, gamer, streamer and Amazon Live host. I stream about tech, gaming and the stuff I actually buy right here with my community and Amazon Live makes it easy. Streaming, gameplay, scouting, new gear, chatting and shopping all at the same time. That's my kind of multitasking. And it all happens on Amazon Live. Shop on Amazon Live by searching Amazon Live in the Amazon Shopping app and follow your favorite creators Today, when you take Balance of Nature fruits and veggie supplements, you get a moment of peace knowing you're getting 31 ingredients of whole fruits and vegetables. It's like pressing pause, if only for a second, to focus on what really matters to you. A simple choice, a deep breath, and the reassurance that you're taking care of you. Go to balanceofnature.com and get 35% off your first preferred set as a new preferred customer by using discount code Pod hey, it's Maya and Sim from the Girls that Invest podcast. If you are an IT or security pro, you know managing devices, identities and applications can feel overwhelming and honestly risky. That's where Trelica by1Password comes in. It helps conquer SaaS sprawl and shadow it by discovering every app your team uses, managed or not. With pre built app profiles, you can assess, risk, manage, access and even optimize your software spend. Plus, IT simplifies onboarding, offboarding and compliance, all while cutting costs by eliminating unused licenses. Take the first step to better security for your team. Learn more@1Password.com Special offer.