← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:00]
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Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts.
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Zena Caida
I I can't stop scratching my downtown. Yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm here to talk about my downtown. Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.
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Zena Caida
7 Healthcare just got less painful.
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- [01:03]
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- [01:41]
Sabrina Merchant
It is incumbent upon the players to figure out how the game is being called. And, like, just stop putting your arm on the chest of another player. And like, don't move six inches when you're setting a screen. Like, they know exactly what is being officiated. And to my eye and what I've talked to players about, it is fairly consistent. It's just a matter of this is very different than September of 2025. So everybody who's returning to the league or everybody who's even coming from college basketball, where a lot of contact is allowed, is, you know, learning how to play under these particular points of education.
- [02:15]
Zena Caida
Hello, everyone, and welcome to no off season. I'm Zena Caida.
- [02:19]
Annie Costable
I'm Annie Costable.
- [02:21]
Sabrina Merchant
And I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [02:23]
Zena Caida
And today on the show, we're diving into the state of officiating in the wnba. Ooh. Yes. Get ready, y'. All. We're not here to rag on the refs, so if that's what you came for, it's not what you're gonna get. We're gonna have a conversation, though, about what that looks like in the league because they have Put clear emphasis on freedom of movement. But is it opening the game up in a good way? Or are all the whistles starting to disrupt the flow of the game and physicality that fans expect from the W? We're going to share our thoughts on the officiating and break down what the league is doing to improve it. But first, a quick reminder for our listeners. We're doing a mailbag episode next Tuesday. We want to hear from you all, so make sure you're sending in your questions ahead of the episode. Okay, so it's Tuesday morning. Well, depending on when you're listening this. But we're recording this for Tuesday morning, which means it's time for the Sabrina scale. I don't know if I say it the same time every time, but, you know, I just let the movement move me. You know, we're here now. Sabrina, even though There are only 15 teams to rank, only, only. I know your list looks very different from last week and you kind of alluded to this, that there would be a little bit more movement because there are a few more teams. But there's a particular team that comes to mind, the Dallas Wings. You have them at number two last week, and now they've fallen all the way to number 10. Now, obviously, there's been a little bit of drama surrounding the Wings lately, including head coach Jose Fernandez's public comments calling out the team, saying that there's, quote, selfishness in the locker room, end quote. So with all of that in mind, what ultimately led you to drop Dallas so far in your rankings this week?
- [04:05]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, you know, most teams have played, like, four games and Dallas was one and, oh, at the time of the last ranking and then lost all of their games this week. So.
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Zena Caida
Yikes.
- [04:14]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, things change very quickly when you only have a very small sample size to deal with in. Wow. But, yeah, I think part of it was, you know, multiple losses. Part of it was just seemed a little early to play the I'm going to call out my team in public card. I think it's a card you can play. I very much agree with Jose Fernandez. This is a card you can play after game three of the season when you lose by four points to the Minnesota Links. Feels a little early. Feels a little dramatic for my taste. But, hey, he's playing this card. That kind of augurs to me that there's, like, more happening. And you guys talked about this last week on the show. There are always things happening in every locker room, right? Like, just because a coach is mentioning it or drawing particular attention to it doesn't mean that it's all that different from other locker rooms. But there is a spotlight on Dallas that doesn't exist on every other team because they have Paige Beckers and they brought in a new coach and they had all of these fantastic free agency acquisitions during the off season. And when you invite more attention upon yourself, I'm looking. And I don't like the pick and roll defense. I don't like the general distribution of usage that is happening on the team. And it's not just like Jose, when Matty Siegrist, you know, good foot soldier for the Dallas Wings, is coming out and saying, I don't know what my role is, I have some questions.
- [05:37]
Zena Caida
Yeah, that surprised me as well. Annie, what were your takes on the full context of what Jose said and also the timing with which it came out?
- [05:51]
Annie Costable
Don't agree with the timing of his. His, you know, blatant. I don't know if we want to call it an outburst or a call out. Call to action.
- [06:01]
Sabrina Merchant
It was very calm. Very calm.
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Zena Caida
Yeah.
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Sabrina Merchant
But definitely a call to action.
- [06:06]
Annie Costable
Yeah. So outburst. Totally not the right word. Call to action. Yes. And I just think doubling down on what Sabrina said and even what the players said in terms of their uncertainty about their role is this felt like a conversation that didn't need to go public yet. You know, this is a new team, a new coach. You're still clearly figuring things out. Now, if this was the New York Liberty, you know, halfway into a season where they're trying to repeat and things are not going their way, Sandy needed to call people out, I think a little bit more last year, but this year, this early in the season, I don't think this was the best timing for it, specifically when there's still questions about how players are being utilized. I mean, specifically for me, Alanna Smith, like, I'm wondering how much Jose is maximizing her specifically on the defensive end. And so when you bring this to the public, it now intensifies the microscope that's on your team. And now you're going to have to deal with questions about the locker room, about any potential disconnects, about who is potentially the source of this perceived selfishness that Jose himself brought to light.
- [07:26]
Zena Caida
Yeah, I'm with you. I think the, the full context and not taking it out beyond that one little clip. I, I don't mind exactly what he said, but you're right in that the way in which it was laid out does allow for speculation. And the second you open your locker room that early in the season, to thoughts around who could this be about what the. You know, you're looking around like what's going on in the locker room. That's, that's not the kind of light you want on this team that I think did start the season with of high hopes of this offense working in a different way. And you know, these pieces being brought together, the 25 pieces that came in a training camp whittling down into a really nice puzzle. Uh, and so, yeah, there's a lot of now added drama for unnecessary reasons. But alas, we'll see what happens. I do love the fact that we're seeing passion come from Jose Fernandez very early with this franchise. And I think that that's gonna, I think it'll, it'll work to their benefit. So we'll see. Okay, let's look at some of the teams that climbed in the rankings. One of the biggest jumps this week came from the Chicago Sky. Sabrina, you had them at number 10 last week and now they have surged all the way up to number three. And I ain't gonna lie. Watching Natasha Cloud on Olivia Miles and Skylar Diggins is not playing. I'm like, oh, exactly what we thought was is happening. This is scary. They've got layers on layers on this team. Um, and of course we'd be remiss not to call out Rekia Jackson and the lower leg injury that. I'll get some information from you, Annie and Sabrina on that. And Sabrina, I know you did the write up on that, but talk to me a little bit about the things that the sky are doing to establish an identity after moving on from Angel Reese and then bringing in some of these veteran additions.
- [09:18]
Sabrina Merchant
Impressed with how resilient Chicago has been thus far because you look at a lot of their big off season acquisitions and Azari Stevens has not yet played. Dijonay Carrington has not yet played. Rekia Jackson. You know, misses the second half of this game. Skyler Diggins has missed a game and a half. Natasha Cloud missed a game. Right. Like all of these people who are big name acquisitions have not even been a part of the picture yet. And yet, like Gabriela Hawke is freaking awesome. Like, I feel like there was nobody higher on Gabriella Hawkes in the draft process. And even I underestimated what she was going to be this early in her WNBA career. But, you know, she hits that three pointer to basically seal the game against Minnesota the other night. J.C. sheldon. Still some questions about the cost it took to get J.C. sheldon, but I have no questions about how good J.C. sheldon has been for the Chicago Sky. Just a pest defensively. I mean, she had two steals on inbounds, like, in the final three minutes of that game, finishing pretty well around the basket. Just like a knockdown free throw shooter, a good three point shooter. Everybody makes sense together, right? Like, they all just play scrappy. They all play hard. They all have very little concern with, like, who's getting the ball. Like, the. There's no real egos there. I think Elizabeth Williams has been really awesome. You know, like, we've talked about Camila Cardoso. How consistent can she be? It hasn't mattered as much because Ewell has just been very good backing her up.
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Zena Caida
Yeah.
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Sabrina Merchant
Like, everything makes sense together. And I was admittedly a little scared of getting too high on the Chicago sky, even though I liked a lot of their offseason moves because I was so wrong about them last year. Like, could not have been more wrong about them last year. People were telling me for, like, weeks into the season, like, you at Chicago, fifth in your preseason poll. Yeah. I felt very stupid about it. Okay. I felt very stupid, everybody.
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Zena Caida
Okay. Sabrina put herself out there for us,
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Sabrina Merchant
and I was wrong. And here we are.
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Zena Caida
That's. That happens.
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Sabrina Merchant
This is the Tyler Marsh I was expecting when he left the Aces. Right. Like, I didn't think there was a meaningful difference between Tyler Marsh and Natalie Nicosta. They were both equally valuable to that Las Vegas Aces run. And, like, this is the kind of culture I thought Tyler could develop. It just took a little bit longer, and it's cool to see it happening in Chicago even before all of their, you know, full roster has come onto the court.
- [11:27]
Zena Caida
Yeah. Worth calling out Gabriela Hawkes. 20 points, 8 rebounds. She was phenomenal. And I love the call out to J.C. sheldon, because whether it was Connecticut, whether it was D.C. at Washington, and now here, Chicago, like, she just does it. Like, does what she's supposed to do. This is very much the personality that she had in Ohio as well. So I'm Ohio State. Excuse me. So I'm very happy to see her thriving in a different space as well. But you're right, they're piecing together. And Annie, you've seen it all when it comes to Chicago. Just talk a little bit about what maybe. Right. But now seeing what you're seeing, One, can you give us a little bit more context to Rekia Jackson's injury against the Minnesota Lynx? And then two, what you've seen in terms of what Chicago's putting together.
- [12:17]
Annie Costable
Yeah. So the Rekia Jackson injury is awful. To start there, you know, you hate to see any player go down like that. And so my immediate takeaway was it looked like a non contact injury. There was a slight, you know, not shove, but kind of there was, you know, a slight bump. Yeah, that, that happened just before, you know, she went down. But it didn't appear like that was necessarily a huge, had a huge impact on this specific injury. What we know as of now is that she's getting an MRI done today which obviously will determine the scope of her injury. I think a side conversation Sabrina and I had was, you know, typically on ACL injuries, I mean, even we saw Emma from the Lynx. How do you say Emma's last name? I always mess it up. Chekhova, Emma Chikova obviously went down with an ACL injury in the game against the Wings. And the takeaway again, seeing some of these ACL injuries is there's typically not a hyperextension that occurs. It has been in some of these specific cases more of kind of an immediate sort of crumbling that happens to the floor. And that wasn't the case with. And so maybe there's hope to be found in that. But we'll, you know, have an update as soon as we, we speak. Further to the sky, but as far as what's going on with this team, I think Sheryl Reeves spoke to it really well and it was interesting to hear her talk about what's working for the sky and that's that this team has cohesion. You know, they're playing for each other. And I think that's going to be a difference maker. Specifically when you look at a roster that is riddled with injury right now. And even when you compare to last season, like that roster too went through serious injury bouts and was at no point at full strength or only through the first few games before Sloot went down with the ACL injury. And so I think that's going to be a difference maker specifically if they lose Rakia for any extended period of time. Because the question I have with replacing Rekia is she can create when a a play blows up. And through these first few games, I haven't seen any other player be a trusted source, scoring source when a play blows up like Rekiya. And so if you are without her for an extended period of time, who's going to be that person? And also that's a question I have for their offense is there's been too many moments where, you know, they, they aren't able to run what they want to run and then you kind of see them go into frantic Mode. And so I think offensively if they, they have to clean that up as the season progresses.
- [15:34]
Zena Caida
For sure. For sure.
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Annie Costable
Yeah.
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Zena Caida
And just thinking about this injury riddled season, some of these teams are having perfect time to plug last Friday's episode about longevity. A great conversation you and Laja and Sabrina had about just how important that is, especially for, you know, teams with championship aspirations. Okay, let's keep it moving and let's talk about one of the new teams on the block. Okay. The Portland Fire. They were at the bottom of your rankings last week, Sabrina. This week they've climbed up to spots. Look at them.
- [16:07]
Sabrina Merchant
Two spots. Yeah, two spots. Doesn't seem as dramatic after we've talked about the Dallas and Chicago shifts.
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Zena Caida
Okay. But listen, knowing that there is a lot of movement, any type of movement is positive. And so especially when you're going up the rankings and your team that is still trying to establish their identity. So what are you seeing in Portland right now that is getting your fire going? You did that.
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Annie Costable
Okay, cool.
- [16:30]
Sabrina Merchant
Say that there is an identity. You know, I, I still haven't quite figured out what it is offensively, you know, that takes a little bit longer, I think than on the defensive end, but they are very pressure heavy team on defense. They full court press more than any team in the wnba. It's like by a significant margin. When you see like 100%, I think like that's usually a good indicator that things are happening more often than elsewhere. But yeah, a lot of pressure trying to force turnovers, trying to make teams take a long time to bring the ball up the court to get into their offense because I think they are a little undersized once you get into the half court, you know, know like Emily Engsler, Luisa Geisel, Soder, it's not exactly like as big as you'd want your four and your five to be defensively. So I think, you know, they're playing to their strengths of like they have a lot of depth. Right. They're going to put a lot of bodies onto the court, so they're going to try to tire you out, make you make bad decisions with the ball. And when they hit their threes, then good things can happen. Right? Like the one game that they've won this season is when they hit 15 threes, when they were submitted double digit threes. They lost both of those games, but I think they were closer against New York than you might have expected in the other game. And the Chicago loss looks better with hindsight, honestly, right now that I know how good the Chicago sky are right.
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Zena Caida
I, I love the. I think it was Lisa Buyington that told the story of them asking pregame Alex Sarama, how many threes is a good number for them to put up? And I, he, you know, may have said something like a lot or whatever. And then they, they were like, well, what number? Like, you know, you put up 31. Is that a good number? He was like, yes, immediately. And it's like, okay, so Portland's gonna get up a ton of threes. Okay. All right. I'm very curious to see how the movement continues on the Sabrina scale. Now, the point around Rekia Jackson and her going out with injury is actually gonna be a really nice transition point. For our next topic, Natasha Cloud, her teammate in Chicago, said after the game she called out the officials saying, quote, their ultimate job is to control and protect the players in this game. And I think that this group today failed to do so. They failed to protect Rickeya. So on the other side of this break, we're going to talk a little bit about how the league is looking to protect players, is looking to do their job, and is looking to get a handle on officiating in the wild.
- [18:59]
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- [19:30]
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- [19:42]
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- [20:19]
Zena Caida
In season 30 of the W, one of the biggest early conversations has been about the whistle in the Minnesota Links season opener against the season the Atlanta Dream. The two teams combined for 42 fouls, 24 on Minnesota and 18 on Atlanta. And afterwards, Sheryl Reeve openly questioned the game. The way that the game was officiated, it sparked us to ask the question, has the league become over officiated? Because one key off season development in the WNBA was the creation of an officiating task force. Okay, we're getting official here, y'. All. Officiating task force made up of league officials, players, and coaches. The goal was to address concerns about excessive physicality and inconsistent refereeing by enforcing existing rules more strictly. So, Annie, what exactly is this task force focusing on and how much of what we're seeing early this season is connected to those changes, in effect, officiating emphasis?
- [21:18]
Annie Costable
Yeah. So Sabrina and I spoke to Sue Blau, the WNBA's head of referee, performance and development, as well as Moni McCutcheon, the head of WNBA officiating, earlier today, and one thing we got into was obviously the task force and what's kind of being focused on there. And what sue explained to us was that the discussion so far, which there have been multiple since the end of last season, has really focused on not rewriting rules. There wasn't a thought or emphasis that rules needed an overhaul, but it was more so about making sure that these rules were being upheld to a good standard and that, you know, mistakes were being addressed properly. And so I think what we're seeing earlier or early in the season. Excuse me. Is obviously a tighter whistle, which has led to a substantial jump in the average number of fouls called per game last season. At this point in. In the year, there were 38.7 fouls per game through the first 10 games of the 2025 WNBA season. This year, that number's up to 43.9 fouls per game on average. And so, again, we're seeing that uptick because emphasis has been, again, on ensuring
- [22:47]
Zena Caida
that is emphases, by the way.
- [22:49]
Annie Costable
Yeah. Okay. That these. These calls are being made properly and the rules that exist are being upheld. Now, the task force, what we know has included, or we know up until this point, Sheryl Reeve and Becky Hammond have both outwardly acknowledged that they are part of this task force. But what I learned today from a source that's also part of the task force is that it includes Phoenix Mercury coach Nate Tibbets, Indiana Fever coach Stephanie
- [23:22]
Sabrina Merchant
White,
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Annie Costable
Sandy Brandello, Toronto tempo coach Morgan Tuck, the Connecticut sun general manager Kurt Miller, the Dallas Wings general manager, and Jonathan Kolb, the New York Liberty general manager. So that. That obviously doesn't include everyone in the league. There's eight coaches and GMs total on this task force, and it is separate from the competition committee, which includes every coach and GM in the wnba.
- [23:50]
Zena Caida
Okay. So love this. Love the intentionality of bringing different minds together to talk about this and to examine this and I'm very curious as to how these points of emphasis came to be. Um, we know last year there was a large focus on, quote, excessive physicality. But there was also a lot of players saying, Sabrina, like, well, this is who. This is what the W's always been. It's always been a very physical league. Um, then there was a focus of, well, okay, well, there's a lot of physicality, and this is just who the wife. This is what the W is. But there's an inconsistency in recognizing that physicality and how that physicality manifests itself on the basketball court. I'm curious, like, where. When this task force came to be, what were they looking to fix? What were their main concerns? Was it the over. Like, the overemphasis on physicality, the overemphasis on inconsistency?
- [24:53]
Sabrina Merchant
And I would agree with you that I think the physicality of the WNBA has historically been a feature, not a bug. I think it is not necessarily a bad thing that, like, there was some contact being let go in the wnba, but there was also an acknowledgement that it got a little out of hand in 2025.
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Zena Caida
Yes.
- [25:10]
Sabrina Merchant
I remember talking to Kelsey Plumb at the end of the season, and she was like, I've just been in an ice bath ever since the season ended because, like, this season was very hard on me in a way that, like, previous seasons hadn't been, you know, and she's a player that sets a lot of screens and, you know, is probably a victim of some of that freedom of movement that we've talked about so much on the perimeter, you know, or lack thereof in terms of freedom of movement. So the game getting excessively physical was something that sue and Mani referred to and that also just. They're generally proud of the performance of the referees. I think it's like, generally on broad scale, good. But there were some high profile errors that stuck out. And so it was a combination of those errors and then a general acknowledgement that, like, hey, we just need to pull back a little. Like, sure, the league can be physical, but not this physical.
- [25:57]
Zena Caida
Did they. Did they mention any particular errors that said, ooh, we need a task force?
- [26:03]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So Sue Blau immediately referred to one game, which, like, the fact that she pulled this date right out of her hat tells you that she's been thinking about it. You know, for her, she's been going on time thinking about this. You may remember this game last year between Indiana and Connecticut. She pulled out the date June 18th when they're. There was some June 16th. Sorry. There were some. Some confrontations, I would say, between the players on the court. And sue acknowledged that during this game. The officials just didn't have the game in control from the beginning of the game. Right. Like, there was excess physicality during the first quarter that they didn't get a handle of and that escalated and emotions escalated. And then they. There was a play towards the end of the game that they acknowledged shouldn't have been an ejection and they didn't inject the player in real time. I believe that was for a shove of someone or like Marina Mabry, like taking someone to the floor. There was a lot going on. Monty McCutchen acknowledged some hair pulling that went uncalled in this particular game, too. So, yeah, that was one game. And admittedly a lot of things involving the Indiana Fever are high profile, but, like, they didn't feel that their referees performed to their standard in that game. And that was one of those high profile errors that they acknowledged, egregious errors that they acknowledged from their performance in the 2025 season.
- [27:18]
Zena Caida
I vividly remember this. The game is, I would say, the game that launched the Sophie Cunningham podcast.
- [27:24]
Annie Costable
Like, that was literally.
- [27:25]
Zena Caida
That was. Show me Something was birthed out of her protecting Caitlyn in that game. Yeah. Okay. I would say that was an egregious lack of officiating, I guess. And I'm happy that they saw that and they see it. So now we know a little bit about who's part of the force. We know a little bit about the efforts of what the force is, you know, trying to attend to. Annie, how would you say the players are adjusting to the way that the game is being called?
- [27:56]
Annie Costable
Yeah, I think there's been a mixture of responses, but the overall response has been we got to adjust. Like, this is clearly going to require some adjusting. And I think some players maybe are hesitant to go in depth on their level of detest for some of these adjustments because they're not trying to get fined. So the ones that I've spoken to, a lot of them have leaned more towards we're going to need to adjust to this. But obviously Natasha Cloud was kind of on the opposite end of that spectrum after the Chicago sky win over the Minnesota Links and that she was saying the officials didn't do a good enough job of protecting players. And I think something that should be acknowledged here, too is Natasha got a technical that wasn't totally obvious from the broadcast because the broadcast cut away from Rekia Jackson after she was injured and went to Break. And in the immediate moment after Rekia's injury, you could see Natasha Cloud go over to the officials to discuss something with them. And in the post game interview is when she acknowledged that moment being the one when she was assessed to technical. And the reason for it, she said, was, you know, she emphatically explained to them they're not protecting the players in this game. Now, this specific moment again with Rekiya, there was a slight like hand on the back, you know, some type of small shove from Nia Coffey. But you could tell right in that moment when Rikia goes down, Nia's not touching her at all. I believe it was Nia. But anyways, so I think players are having mixed reaction to it. And the interesting part to me is how this is impacting Biggs specifically. And Jonquil Jones is someone who's spoken at length about her, you know, struggle navigating this new, this new situation.
- [30:15]
Zena Caida
I'm really happy you brought that up. Let's talk about it from a basketball perspective for everyone listening. Everyone's gonna have their opinions on, you know, how who's supposed to be on the task force and what they should be focused on. But let's actually talk about what we're going to see as a result of the, these points of emphasis. And I would start from the big girl perspective, especially when it comes to setting screens out on the perimeter and working inside the post. Let's start with the setting screens. Oh, God. I'mma tell you right now, setting screens is stressful, okay? Because it is. It really is. You've got it. You've got to set your feet, which is insane because you're setting your feet, which means that the guard who's using the screen is supposed to set up their defender to use said screen to run into your screen. If your guard does not do that and you're trying to set a good screen, you will get in trouble because
- [31:11]
Sabrina Merchant
that means early, right?
- [31:13]
Zena Caida
The guard goes early. The guard doesn't, you know, set up the dribble to go back off of it. The guard just goes, blows right around you and you're trying to help them out, right? You're so selfless. So you're gonna just slide on over just an inch or two. You're gonna just lean over just a, just to help get some sort of resistance to that defender and then beep, whistle automatically. And if you watch these, the WNBA just put out these points of emphasis videos around what they're. They're calling for. The freedom of movement, part one really focuses on freedom of movement on the perimeter and in the post. And you see, I mean, Bree Jones. There's one play where Bree Jones is setting a screen, I believe, for Alicia Gray, and it's Ray Burrell coming off, and she sets it and rolls. I'm gonna tell you. Right. She barely moved, in my opinion. Okay. But again, I've got the mindset of a big, so I'm like, that ain't no foul, but that's what they're gonna be calling that stuff, and it's gonna be really, really close. I wanted to hear, you know, as you guys talked to Moni, you talked to sue, this aspect of freedom on the. On the perimeter. Freedom of movement on the perimeter and how bigs play into that, because a lot of times they're helping their guards get movement by setting pics. What do they say about what that's going to look like in terms of what bigs are allowed to do?
- [32:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I think one thing that Moni said that was pretty interesting was, like, there's no such thing as a perfect screen. Like, there is going to be movements.
- [32:40]
Zena Caida
Thank you for validating us.
- [32:41]
Sabrina Merchant
There's going to be a movement on all of these screens. It's a matter of how much movement you are willing to allow. He basically said, like, everyone moves one or two inches. Where is the line that we draw? Like, how many inches do you have to move before it's considered a moving screen? And so that's something that they got into with the task force over the off season. Um, and he. I think. I'm not sure if any mentioned this yet, but, like, this is something that they plan to revisit during the course of the regular season. Like, this has not been a WNBA policy before to, like, visit with a competition committee during the season and evaluate how officiating is going. But they are going to do that with their task force this year because of, I guess, all of the scrutiny and attention that they have put into the matter. But, yeah, screens, if you're seeing a lot more moving screens, it's. It's by design. Like, that's how they're trying to call it. But like you said, Zena, they're all a little moving, and they were just trying to figure out this offseason how much you're allowed to move. So I think bigs are feeling the brunt of this because so much of their job is setting screens. They just. By definition of their role, we're seeing more guard to guard screens, sure. But Biggs proportionally set more screens, and so that being a point of education for the WNBA is going to result in more calls coming their way.
- [33:53]
Zena Caida
Love seeing inverted screens now and being like, yep, see guards, see how does, how does it feel now? It's hard. It's hard. Annie, what did you see or what are you particularly concerned about when it comes to Biggs?
- [34:04]
Annie Costable
I think just to double back on what Sabrina was saying, or to use what Sabrina was saying to double back on what we were saying earlier is that that's the intention behind this task force is to have a better understanding of what's going to be called consistently. And I think that is also at the root of some of these early complaints from players and from coaches is there's still a feeling that things are not being called consistently. And one of the ways the this sue and Monty plan to address this issue of consistency among, you know, many is they have an evaluation process. I don't know if they said it was a video resource that they're using Sabrina, but they're evaluating every game immediately after the game is what they said. And they're able to send that evaluation to officials to discuss, to go through. And the other interesting point I thought about this evaluation process is the league doesn't outline an official schedule for the entire season. Like if I'm Annie Costabel and I'm an official in the wnba, I'm not getting my full season schedule. So how I perform early in the season is going to determine what games I'm officiating late in the season. If I do a great job, great, I could get more games or I could get more high profile games. If I'm doing a shitty job, I might get pulled from certain games. So I think those are two interesting notes in terms of how the W is evaluating and attempting to, you know, hold itself accountable.
- [35:50]
Zena Caida
That's interesting. It also makes me think of there was a report recently that the nbpa, the National Basketball Players association on the men's side, did a survey. That was so funny. Yeah, it was. Well, it wasn't funny to the refs. I'll break it down really quickly. The MBPA sent a survey out to the players to essentially tier rank the NBA officials. And they were basically like, you get put them in a tier of tier one, tier two, tier three. And their proposition was basically that tier ones and two, based on their performance, you get to do the playoffs and only tier. And I think it's the first two rounds of the playoff and then I
- [36:28]
Sabrina Merchant
think tier one gets to do the finals.
- [36:30]
Zena Caida
Correct. And tier one, only tier One gets to be at the finals. Now do we think that the NBA is actually going to be.
- [36:37]
Sabrina Merchant
They haven't thus far.
- [36:38]
Zena Caida
Like they haven't thus far.
- [36:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Tier 3. I'm putting this in quotes because it's how the players ranked them. They were tier three officials doing the playoffs.
- [36:44]
Zena Caida
Yes, exactly. That's what they said. Exactly, exactly. And so it's interesting that there is some level of a not tearing but evaluation in. In real time on the WNBA side. And you gotta properly call your games. Now this is interesting too because you're saying that they're evaluating this after every game. And I would think that most of the fans would want in game analysis. Right. And so what do they say about Secaucus? What I mean by Secaucus, y'? All, that is where on the NBA side, if a play is getting reviewed, there is a team in Secaucus, New Jersey that is reviewing plays in real time and then sending information back to the refs on site to say this is the final call, this is where it lands, et cetera. There is no such thing as the WNBA side. Where does that land? Where are we at with that?
- [37:37]
Annie Costable
Yeah, the last two minute report is something that many people have been clamoring for for some time and have questioned. What's the holdup in the WNBA? Even Monty McCutcheon himself today said this isn't an US problem, this is a resources problem. We would love the last two minute report. We would love that accountability factor because I mean, again, this is his explanation to us, but he doesn't seem afraid of the accountability. In fact, he emphas that level of accountability helps officiating get better. What we also have been told by the league via Bethany Doniphan regarding the potential of a WNBA replay center was that, quote, we're constantly evaluating every aspect of our referee operations program and a major focus is on how technology can help advance the game and support high quality officiating. Those discussions are ongoing and we will continue to evaluate further investment opportunities in those areas. It's certainly something we're exploring, but there's nothing to announce at this time. End quote.
- [38:44]
Zena Caida
Okay. Okay. Thank you for laying that out so officially. End quote. I'm immediately thinking of what MLB has done with the robot umps and the level of testing they did in the triple. What? Sabrina, keep me right.
- [39:02]
Sabrina Merchant
The minor leagues.
- [39:03]
Zena Caida
The minor leagues, okay. Yes, the minor leagues. And then being able to implement that. And I ain't gonna lie, it's been fun for seeing the fans of MLB get excited about the robot umps. And get excited about like correcting refs in real time, which is so messed up. We're all human. I get it. But like shaming people in public, I don't necessarily love that aspect of it, but it is important to get the right thing right, to get the right calls. And, and I'm very curious as to if the leagues are in, in communication of how could that happen. On the basketball court, there's so much more movement. It's. It's a lot less. Is it in this line? Is it. Are you in the line, you know, on the way to a base? It's very. It's a lot more.
- [39:46]
Sabrina Merchant
I feel like the only things you could use robot referees for in the NBA are like goal out of bounds and like, is it a two or three, you know?
- [39:55]
Zena Caida
Yeah, exactly. Just all the things that are around lines. So that's real. Okay, so let's keep talking a little bit about the stuff on the court because, Sabrina, I feel like if everything's about freedom of movement and everything's about ensuring that folks aren't being hand checked and they're not having, you know, they're posting up and they're not getting bows in their backs for too long or they're not being draped all over, which we've seen. We have seen. Is this giving way to a way more offensive focused game? Are we going to see numbers, scoring numbers skyrocket as a result of this?
- [40:32]
Sabrina Merchant
We really have thus far. Um, I mean, Annie mentioned the foul stats like that. That naturally leads to a lot more free throws.
- [40:40]
Zena Caida
I will say, y' all better get in the gym. Y' all better get in the gym.
- [40:43]
Sabrina Merchant
The game that was in my neck of the woods this weekend between the Sparks and the Tempo, that was a particularly egregious foul fest. There were 59 foul in that game.
- [40:53]
Zena Caida
That's crazy.
- [40:54]
Sabrina Merchant
Resulting in 72 free throws. And so, yeah, maybe that one was offensively aided by the freedom of movement calls. But I mean, in general, like, I think the coaches and the players have been very like, united in saying that, like, the officials are trying to protect us. Like, the goal of these rules is to try to protect the players. And like, you know, I was talking Marina Mabry over the weekend. She's like, I mean, it's great. Like, I hate getting clipped on screens. Like, this is nice. Like they are called fouls, you know.
- [41:23]
Zena Caida
Right, right, right.
- [41:26]
Sabrina Merchant
I do think it's upon the players to adjust. Right. And you always see this where the game gets called pretty tight at the start of the season. And the number of fouls slowly declines over the course of the year. And then the playoffs are like an entirely different kind of asshole. We can get to that at a different point. But it is incumbent upon the players to figure out how the game is being called and just stop putting your arm on the chest of another player and don't move six inches when you're setting a screen. They know exactly what is being officiated. And to my eye and, like, what I've talked to players about, like, it is fairly consistent. It's just a matter of this is very different than September of 2025. So everybody who's returning to the league or everybody who's even coming from college basketball, where a lot of contact is allowed, is, you know, learning how to play under these particular points of education. So, you know, I don't have like all of the offensive stats in front of me. Like, anecdotally, it feels like more points are being scored, but let me actually look that up while Annie's talking.
- [42:24]
Annie Costable
Well, I would actually argue the opposite in the sense of. And players have spoken about this too, specifically Brianna Stewart. I think it was after their loss to the Portland Fire.
- [42:34]
Sabrina Merchant
Might have even been their overtime win over Washington.
- [42:37]
Annie Costable
Or maybe it was early. It was early in the season. We are early in the season, but I think it was when they played Portland. But either way, it was one of the post game press conferences. Stewie talked about the disruption with the fouls called and how that slows down what you're trying to run on the offensive end. It just disrupts it when you're constantly dealing with pauses in the game. And so I think that's something that'll be interesting to monitor is sure, you know, points wise, you're seeing an increase maybe early on in the season so far in, you know, final scores because of the amount of trips to the free throw line teams are taking. But in terms of flow offensively, I would say it's going to have the opposite effect if there's a. If the number of fouls called per game doesn't at some point level off.
- [43:35]
Zena Caida
Yeah, I think for those of you listening that are, you know, new to this space and you're like, what should we be watching for? What should we be looking for? The thing that stood out to me in the points of emphasis video that was sent out by the WNBA was how much off ball movement was being monitored. And it's things that if you're looking at the ball and you're looking at the main action, you might miss what A referee on the backside is looking at someone that is, you know, setting up a screen that's coming across the paint or coming across the baseline that's trying to get to a position to set up a play. That sort of stuff. If you're not letting a player get to their position, even if they're not involved in the action, that is going to be stopped. And that's what probably makes fans feel like, oh, the game is not going right. There's all these abrupt disruptions and they're seeing the ball action, but they're not seeing what's going on off ball. And that is what makes, makes it feel as if you're not getting to see the action fully, you know, lay out and continue into what they, a player or a coach or team was trying to execute.
- [44:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay, so I, I looked up the number real quick. Just so we have it. Through the first 10 days of the last WNBA season, in 2025 teams averaged 80.0 points per game. And through the first 10 days of this WNBA season, they're averaging 87.5 points per game. So yeah, a lot of offense.
- [44:59]
Zena Caida
That's a lot of offense. Okay, cool. Got it.
- [45:03]
Sabrina Merchant
This doesn't account for like regulation versus overtime. So that could add some things. Like we've had some time games. But yeah, I mean big picture.
- [45:10]
Zena Caida
To your point, to your point about that tempo Los Angeles game, the tempo put up 30. They made 39 free throws. Of their 106 points, 39 were free throws. That's a lot. I mean that's a lot. I don't know all the numbers of how many times that happened, but yeah,
- [45:25]
Sabrina Merchant
and to me like it's like Annie was talking about the flow. Like it's really hard to for. I mean it doesn't look the same way as like if you're getting a foul free game or like a less foul intensive game. But like the games are just taking a very long time. I mean I think about how national television slots give two hours for a WNBA game. Like if you're playing on ESPN, game starts at 10:00am 12:00'.
- [45:48]
Zena Caida
Clock.
- [45:48]
Sabrina Merchant
Like the next program is starting on ESPN.
- [45:50]
Zena Caida
Right.
- [45:51]
Sabrina Merchant
This is actually in the newsletter today, but every game other than three of them. So like 25 out of 28 games have been more than two hours. So like they are blowing past their windows.
- [46:02]
Zena Caida
Right, right. And it keeps, it's been like that. I mean I've experienced that on a hosting ion where we haven't had game breaks or you know, last, this last week we didn't have a game break show because it won a game, went to overtime, of course. But also by the time a game is finishing, another game has started and we're going, you know, you're going straight into that action. And that typically happens on the NBA side way more than I've seen it happen on Zubby side.
- [46:28]
Sabrina Merchant
But that's one of the things I love about a 40 minute game is like, you can get in and out in two hours. Like, that's one of the appeals. Like, think about how often Adam Silver on the NBA side talks about how he wants to get in in two and a half hours. Right? Like, and the WNBA usually has been able to get, you know, start and finish in two hours and that is not happening right now.
- [46:44]
Zena Caida
Yeah. Okay. I, as a person that was fully, I would say recruited on my defensive abilities, my offensive abilities were not there, y'.
- [46:56]
Robert Mace (Athletic Football Show / Men's Wearhouse Ad Voice)
All.
- [46:56]
Zena Caida
I was a shot blocker and I talked in transition. Okay, this feels like it. If you're a defensive minded player and that is your thing, this probably feels like, ugh, this is really frustrating. There's even more emphasis on what I'm doing and what I can contribute to, to the game. But I am very curious as to, you know, if the offensive explosion is actually going to be fun for fans to watch more buckets go in. But how those buckets come to be if they're all free throws, that ain't fun. Right? That's. I think that's really important. I wanna close this out and ask you guys, thinking about everything that we've kind of laid out about officiating and knowing that the biggest frustration is really around consistency and not only consistency within a game, but consistency across the league and across the association. What would you say is an ideal WNBA game from an officiating standpoint? Not only. I want first, I want it from sue and Moni. What would they say is a perfect game in their world? Like, oof, we did our jobs. Bravo to us. Everybody gets raises like, what would that look like for them? And then I'd love to hear from you two, like, what would an official, like a great officiated game look like from you?
- [48:16]
Annie Costable
Well, we didn't ask Monty or Sue this question, so I definitely don't want to speak for them. But if I put myself in the shoes of sue and Monty. Let me get there. I think I'm just joking. No, I think a well officiated game in their mind is not a perfect game because again, they acknowledged like, mistakes are made. Yeah, human error is made. But from what we all discussed, it sounds like a well officiated WNBA game is one that, that doesn't let allow things to escalate. And I think that's again something that we saw happen quite a bit last season beyond even, you know, the Marina Mabry shove to Caitlin Clark that didn't result in an ejection. There were multiple games throughout the year where things escalated and more problems were created because of that. And so I think a well officiated game is one that doesn't allow things to escalate. And I will say for my personal opinion, I agree with that. That to is that that's what I want to see because the physicality I don't want to see get tamped down entirely. But if you don't allow things to escalate, then it prevents egregious, to use Sue's word, egregious escalations that we can see result in, you know, like harmful play that just isn't good for the game at all. The physicality, that's something I don't think anybody wants to see go away entirely. But I think it's just about. Yeah, preventing things from, from escalating.
- [50:01]
Zena Caida
That's fair. Okay, well what about you all? Sabrina, I'll start with you.
- [50:05]
Sabrina Merchant
If any had the right idea with the sue and Monty comment, like a well appreciated game to allow escalation. Yeah.
- [50:12]
Zena Caida
And what about you personally though? If you're looking at a game and you're looking.
- [50:15]
Sabrina Merchant
I can't do 70 free throws. I can't do it. I just, I'm not here for it. I'm sorry. I don't even care if that many fouls are actually happening. I cann do 70 free throws.
- [50:24]
Zena Caida
Okay, that's fair. What about you, Annie?
- [50:26]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, let's, let's get that number like the 40 to 45, you know, just, or like the players just stop falling, you know, like don't do it. You know, like it's, that's also on you.
- [50:36]
Annie Costable
Yeah, I'm, I'm with Sabrina. I mean, 70 free throw, that's insane. Like that's insane. No game should.
- [50:43]
Sabrina Merchant
I want my two hour window back. Like that's what I want.
- [50:47]
Annie Costable
I feel like to that point too, like I, I want to see these offenses moving, running all the way through. I don't want to see the stop and go. I don't want to see, you know, limited actions because of officiating. So again, I know that they are trying to emphasize this freedom of movement and I do think that's important. I think they got to find the balance that allows basketball to be played fluidly and not some of this stop and go that we're seeing that's really disrupting offensive actions.
- [51:24]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I will say that like the I, it's. This is not the official's fault. The officials are calling what is meant to be called. Like they are calling what the players are doing. The one thing I do take exception with is how long the reviews take. Like that to me really drains the flow of the game.
- [51:38]
Zena Caida
That was going to be mine. That was going to be mine. I think if a game is well officiated, it is. Yes. Love the idea of, you know, you're not basically giving a free throw contest as a game. But for me it's the speeding up the review process. It is crazy how much momentum, how much life got sucked out of games last year. And we've seen a little bit already this year of just like people trying to figure out how is it taking this long, like what is happening behind the desk. And the worst part is we see
- [52:10]
Sabrina Merchant
the absence of the replay center. Right?
- [52:12]
Zena Caida
Exactly, exactly. And the worst part is the like every, especially if you're watching at home, every time everybody behind the desk looks confused and I, it just, it make. And I know they're doing their job, I know they're doing their job, but it just makes it worse. It makes it feel more like egregious. I'll. We'll just continue to use this word. It's just like, come on, somebody's gotta know what the answer is. It can't be this hard. It can't be this hard. So yeah, I think being able to keep within that two hour window, keep the reviews quickly, I mean, you know, get through those reviews quickly and get back to the action of the game.
- [52:47]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm dying at you saying it can't be this hard, Xena. Because I'm remembering Cheryl Reeves iconic press conference from last year when she said officiating, it's not that hard.
- [52:56]
Zena Caida
Not that hard. It's not that hard. Oh, well, I'm gonna ask something my
- [53:01]
Annie Costable
mom always said to me as a child. My mom was one of my first basketball coaches, which is maybe why I didn't go pro. Mom, I'm just joking.
- [53:09]
Zena Caida
Don't go on your mama like that.
- [53:11]
Annie Costable
I love you, mom. No, she's the best. But she always like I would come home and I'd be like raging out about the officiating. And without question, she would always say a game never comes down to officiating. She's like I don't want to hear that. Don't leave a game up to the officials. I can't remember a single time my mom had my side when I was complaining about officiating. So I just have to say shout out to you Marilo.
- [53:40]
Zena Caida
I love that on that. We're gonna mic drop that. Very well done Marilo. On that note, we're gonna play a game on side of this break. Hope you guys enjoyed that conversation around officiating and hopefully folks don't put on 70 free throw games anymore this season. We'll see what happens.
- [54:03]
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- [54:30]
Zena Caida
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- [55:51]
Zena Caida
All right y', all, I got a quick game for you. Super simple. You know, it's just a matter of are you keeping up with the stats? Are you keeping up with the leaderboard? Okay. Are you Keeping up with who is doing work around the association. So it's gonna just be a game of who's leading. Alrighty, you guys ready to go? Just got quick four, no quick four questions. Wanna see if you guys know and I wanna see if you all listening know after first few games. Within the WNBA officially in the books, who is leading the league in points per game right now? Points per game? Is it Asia Wilson?
- [56:28]
Annie Costable
Yeah, Asia Wilson.
- [56:29]
Zena Caida
Is it Kelsey Plum? Is it Caitlin Clark? Or is it Sony Citron?
- [56:35]
Sabrina Merchant
Asia?
- [56:35]
Annie Costable
Asia.
- [56:37]
Zena Caida
It ain't. It's my old teammate. It's Kelsey Plum averaging 26.8.
- [56:44]
Sabrina Merchant
She put up 45 and she's not like.
- [56:47]
Zena Caida
Well, apparently in the other game she didn't put up enough. Cause Kelsey Plum's been a little. Just a little bit. A little bit above her in terms of per game. Per. But yes, it is important that we call out the fact that Asia Wilson now has had the most amount of 45 point games in WNBA history casually and went 15 of 18 inch as she put down 45 points. That's just ridiculous. All right, let's keep it going. Who is currently leading the league in steals per game? Is it Jordan Canada, Brittany Sykes, Veronica Burton, or Maureen Johannes? Oof.
- [57:30]
Sabrina Merchant
Owned by Maureen being on this list to begin with.
- [57:32]
Zena Caida
Yeah, me too.
- [57:33]
Annie Costable
I'm like, is this a trick question? Um, I'm gonna go with Veronica Burton, but I feel that is wrong.
- [57:42]
Sabrina Merchant
I'll go with Slim.
- [57:44]
Zena Caida
Ooh, both wrong. It is Jordan Canada. She's surviving her all defense right here. Yes. Shout out to Jordan Canada. She is.
- [57:54]
Sabrina Merchant
I should have known that actually. She had a ton of steals against Vegas the other day.
- [57:57]
Annie Costable
Yeah, against that.
- [58:00]
Zena Caida
All right, now who is leading the league right now in the most with the most amount of 3 point shots made? Is it Caitlin Clark? Is it Marine Johannes? Is it Chelsea Gray? Or is it Marina Mabry?
- [58:17]
Annie Costable
Maureen.
- [58:21]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I'll go Maureen. Yeah, that's good.
- [58:23]
Zena Caida
Woo. Well done, ladies. It is Maureen Johannes. She's got 15 made three point shots and I imagine most of them were made on one foot. All right, let's keep it going with who has the most amount of assists per game right now or who has had the most assists per game or in a game or no, most assists per game. Excuse me.
- [58:45]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, those are different. Yeah.
- [58:46]
Zena Caida
Yep. Those are like. Wait, these are two different things. Nope, nope. Assists per game. And the options are Jackie Young, Alyssa Thomas, Caitlin Clark, or Veronica Burton.
- [59:06]
Annie Costable
I just saw this the other day.
- [59:08]
Sabrina Merchant
I think James Wood actually just wrote about this. Like they adjusted some stats For Caitlin, like they gave her two more assists the other day. I feel like that probably pushed her ahead.
- [59:17]
Annie Costable
Oh, damn. Okay, um. Well, I'm gonna not agree with you because I want there to be a winner to this game. So even if it is Caitlin, I can't pick Caitlin because Sabrina already claimed her. I swear I just saw this. So it's. What were the choices again?
- [59:32]
Sabrina Merchant
One more time at Veronica Burton and Jackie Young, right?
- [59:36]
Zena Caida
Okay, that's correct.
- [59:39]
Annie Costable
I think it's at. I'm not sold, but I. I think it was 18.
- [59:44]
Zena Caida
Well, I. I will give you this point five of an assist. Alyssa Thomas is behind Caitlin Clark. Caitlin Clark is averaging nine to James Boyd right now. Yeah, and you're absolutely right. They added. Added on to. I believe it was to either the Washington game or the Storm game. But yeah, nine assists right now for Caitlin Clark. Pretty impressive.
- [60:13]
Annie Costable
I was looking at this because of Olivia Miles and I was trying to see where she was, she stood in terms of the league's, you know, hierarchy. Assists per game. And I was shocked that she wasn't top three. I think she was fifth in the league.
- [60:28]
Zena Caida
So anyways, and it's a. And Caitlin's got nine assists, five turnovers per game. Alyssa Thomas has eight and a half assists per game. 3.8 turnovers a game. So you handle on the ball, you handle the rock, you'll have a lot of turnovers. But I do have to give a lot of credit to Veronica Burton who had that 12 assist, zero turnover game to open the season. That was pretty impressive. She is only. She's averaging 7.3 assists per game with only two turnovers. So that turnover ratio is looking pretty good over in the bay. Alrighty. That is going to be it for today. That was a fun little game.
- [61:04]
Sabrina Merchant
You didn't even do rebounds. Like that's the one. I actually know Xena.
- [61:07]
Zena Caida
Oh, well, I mean, big girl here.
- [61:09]
Sabrina Merchant
I thought I was going to get this one.
- [61:10]
Zena Caida
We were trying to keep it short. Okay, well, let's do it. Why not? Heck, we got. We got a little bit of time.
- [61:15]
Annie Costable
I can't pick the same.
- [61:18]
Sabrina Merchant
You can go first, Annie. It's fine.
- [61:20]
Zena Caida
Who's leading the league in rebounds? Is it Camila Cardoso? Is it Angel Reese? Is it Anissa Morrow? Or is it Keke Iruafen?
- [61:33]
Annie Costable
It's gotta be angel, right? But now I don't know.
- [61:36]
Sabrina Merchant
Is it Kiki? It's gotta be Angel Sabrina.
- [61:41]
Zena Caida
It is Kiki. 13.7 rebounds a game. Angel Reese is right behind her at 12.7. Everyone else is in the tens. So Keke and Angel going at it and I like this cause we've seen the claps between the two of them. This is gonna be a nice little battle for the for the ages as they continue to grow in their sport. Very exciting to see. Okay, now we'll close it out. Y' all appreciate everyone tuning in. And make sure you're tuning in on Thursday cause Layja and I are gonna be back with another conversation that's amazing and fun. I think we killed it last week as an association AKA no Off season. We had some really great conversations overall. And don't forget we got a mailb. We want to hear from you. So make sure you send in your questions no offseasontheathletic.com and if you haven't already, we've alluded to it in this pod there is a newsletter Sign up for the no Off Season newsletter. Get all your great women's hoops coverage and news in one place, perfectly packaged up for you in your inbox every Tuesday. And follow our show on YouTube and wherever you're listening, share it with your friends. Let em know if they're blowing you up about basketball stuff that you don't know the answer to. We got you. That's what we're here for. Send them here. Just tell them stop texting me and go listen to no Off Season. It's a really great show. All right. On behalf of the Athletic Andy Costable and Sabrina Merchant, I'm Zena Caida thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No Offseason is hosted by Zena Keda with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant, Blasia Clarendon and Annie Costable. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Stott. Monica Compton is our video editor. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of Women's Basketball at the Athletic. Be sure to like and subscribe. We drop new episodes every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday.
- [63:35]
Robert Mace (Athletic Football Show / Men's Wearhouse Ad Voice)
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