← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:00]
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- [04:51]
Zena Kaeda
For the Athletic. I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's hoops, of course. I've been telling you all season. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast. Make sure you subscribe to the site. I've got another reason why you should subscribe to the site. I don't know if you guys have noticed, if you are subscribers to the Athletic, that we've got a new vertical called the Collectibles Vertical and it's telling you a little bit about what's available in the collectibles marketplace. You know, trading cards, merchandise, things that are autographed, all these things that I actually don't know much about. And women's sports, particularly women's basketball, is a part of that collectibles world, and it's kind of blowing up a little bit. We needed to find out a little bit more about it, so I got Sabrina Merchant in the building with me, and we have a special guest within the I Athletics realm to come and join us. Ann Marie Farrell. Anne Marie, I'm gonna give your whole bio before I officially welcome you in, because you're, like, the best person possible that we could have possibly had for this. For this conversation around collectibles. All right, so Emory Farrell is the associate professor of sport management at Stonehill College. Before her time at Stone hill, Emory spent 18 years at Ithaca College. Okay, this is not like, a newbie on the scene. Like, she's been doing this, y'all.
- [06:27]
Anne Marie Farrell
You said I'm old. You're like, she's old. Great value in the WNBA that is.
- [06:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Older than the players at tcu.
- [06:35]
Anne Marie Farrell
Yeah.
- [06:37]
Zena Kaeda
That'S a good one, Sabrina. That's a good one. But at ifica, she set up a strategic partnerships, like, with, like, multiple big leagues, including the wnba, the mnba, the men's NBA, multiple sporting leagues, to provide her students with these, like, experiential learning opportunities. And in her professorship, her main research and her teaching area centered on sport marketing, sales, and specifically sport consumer behavior. And that's why she's the perfect person to discuss our main topic today, trading cards and more specifically, women's basketball trading cards. Like, why are consumers. Why would consumers be interested in these trading cards? She's also the founder of a popular women's sports card, Instagram. You should go check it out. Women on tops. Wink, wink. And a frequent invited speaker on the business of sports cards. Recently, she helped launch a new podcast devoted to women's sports trading cards and collectibles called Collect her like that. Many of her courses as a professor focus on the connection between sports marketing practices and sociology, focusing on the ways that fan motivation and consumer behavior reflect economic, cultural, and attitudinal developments in society at large. And with women's basketball getting a major boost in relevancy vis visibility and engagement, we at the Athletic were curious if the trading card business reflected this growth and in terms of, like, consumerism around women's basketball collectibles. So, Anne Marie, baby girl, welcome.
- [08:13]
Anne Marie Farrell
You're quite the hype person. I gotta.
- [08:15]
Zena Kaeda
I gotta.
- [08:16]
Anne Marie Farrell
Yeah, I gotta. I gotta bring you to some mixers coming up some holiday mixers.
- [08:20]
Zena Kaeda
This is awesome.
- [08:21]
Anne Marie Farrell
Talk me out a little.
- [08:22]
Zena Kaeda
No, this is awesome. Like, this is, it's one. It's really cool that you've devoted like your career to this, but now it's also awesome that there's a cross section here between women's basketball, getting the love it deserves and what you do in the women's basketball and trading cards in general. And I got to take it back. Let's get some big picture context. How did you get into this? Like, where did this love for trading cards or this knowledge for trading cards start out for you?
- [08:51]
Anne Marie Farrell
Yeah, so, like a lot of people, I, you know, sport cards is a way that I connected with my dad. And we both love sports. He was a big, we big Yankees fan, a lot of men's sports. But he also ingrained in me and I played sports my whole life. He would also take me to see women's sports. I remember going to Rutgers games and I love Vivian Stringer, who's just amazing when, you know, was on the team and he had trading cards when he was a kid. And you know, we would go to card shows and together. And I Never forget in 1999, 1992, I was 13 at the time. And I remember seeing in a Sports Illustrated for kids, they had pull out trading cards and Mia Hamm had a card and I thought this is so cool because it was one of those, you know, kids don't. If they can't see it, they don't know that it exists, right? And it was like, oh, wow, a woman on a trading card. Like, this is. This is everything, right? And you know that I still have that card. I kind of. That was the card that at one point had sold for like $25,000 in a perfect PSA 10 grade. And I was, I kind of wish that like young Anne Marie would have cared more tearing it out of the perforated lines. But I started, you know, a real interest in particularly women's sport cards. And you know, as I, I sold out, I had to sell a lot of my men's cards for, to help pay for college, which, you know, it's funny because everyone said, oh, you know, women's sport cards, there were so much more than they were like 15, 20 years ago. Like, do you wish it would. It would have been a huge there. And I'm like, yeah, but I only have, you know, nobody wanted my, you know, Diana Taurasi 2000 Yukon rookie card at that point. So I kept it. Right? So a lot of the cards that I Have women's cards. I have because I. They weren't really worth selling. And of course now they've really escalated in price. So probably for the last, oh, 10 years or so, I've really focused and devoted myself within women's. But this is like my nerdy, sort of like, you know, Anwar, you seem like a pretty cool cat. And then I'm like, I spend a lot of time collecting cardboard of absolute strangers and they're like, awesome. I'm gonna walk through now. So. But my interest, again, part of my interest in, you know, studying and working in sport marketing came out of my experiences as a women's sport fan. As a female sport fan and just trying to learn more and trying to help bring more people to games.
- [11:25]
Zena Kaeda
I love that. And I think that's the part. Even when you said, Diana Taurasi 2000 PSA 10, I immediately was like, what, Who? Tell us, how do trading cards work? Like, for those that don't know, how do you get value in trading cards? How does the marketplace work?
- [11:43]
Anne Marie Farrell
Okay, so like any kind of collectible, right? Whether it be like Beanie Babies or art, right? You've got a number of similarities. You've got items that are, like, tangible, right? We'll do cards. We can get to NFTs later. And there's varying rarity and people collect them. And again, there's different market factors, right? These can be bought and sold anything from like a coach handbag where they'll have an exclusive release or a, you know, Birkin. This is the things where I don't understand, but any kind of commodity that can be bought or sold that has different rarities and cards are pretty well established, right? I think the first, like, tobacco baseball set was in 1886, right? So sport card collecting has been around for a long time. Women's sport cards have been around for a long time. I have women's sport trading cards from the late 1800s. Cabinet cards, there's been women's sport cards. It's kind of like where people say, like, oh, women's sports were invented in 1972 with Title 9. And I'm like, no, no. Women have been playing sports for much longer than that. That's just when men realized they could try to make money off of it. And, and so, you know, I have cards that span like absolute generations, whether it be Wilma Rudolph, Althea Gibson, Jackie Joyner Kersey. I mean, there's just, you know, Sonia Hennay is actually probably the, the, the, the women's sort of like vintage athlete with the most cards. Now again, why do people collect trait? Like people collect stuff because we like stuff. Like, do you collect anything?
- [13:14]
Sabrina Merchant
I don't collect anything. I've gotten some basketball cards, like for gifts. Are you mean just like cards or just in general? Oh, I've got a huge snow globe collection.
- [13:22]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, that's cool. Good for you.
- [13:26]
Sabrina Merchant
It's just a reminder of where I've been, like travel wise.
- [13:28]
Anne Marie Farrell
Yeah, totally. It makes it like, like we are, like we are a collector of things, right? And I think it's community. Like. So if you think about why I think people would collect sport cards, it'll also answer the question, why did the sport card market just skyrocket during COVID Because part of it is community, right? Sports are part of our personal history, our family history, our community history. And human beings are really bad at social distancing. Like we are pack animals. Like even those who are like power introverts, right? Like we are hardwired for connection. Also nostalgia. Part of the snow globes are like, it reminds me of where I was. Like, to me, trading cards are like small pieces of art. They're cultural artifacts, right. When I pick up, you know, I think about like, like cards that, you know, whether it be a Babe Didrickson card, right? Or picking up a card of Lisa Leslie, like they're little cultural artifacts of what what a, a cultural life in sport in America looked like at that time, right? So for me, and maybe that charts with like why we like art. Other. I think we talk about fandom is really important to identity and maybe that's different. Like you know, we. I'm a, like I'm, I'm a big New York Liberty fan. I was at like the first game, right? You could be like Anne Marie, you seem like a really smart person. Why would you, why would you tie your emotional well being to a team that took 28 years to win a championship, right? I'm a Buffalo Bill season ticket holder. But what, like there are other ways I could, I could have self hatred besides that. But we like, we have that sense of vicarious achievement. So you've got the nostalgia, you got the community, you got this weird product and cultural like marker like sport. And then you have money, right? So you got sort of short term flipping, you got the idea of prospecting. You throw in a little gambling. I mean it's got sort of all the kinds of things that, that, that, that, that, that are fun and that and that create connection. I mean, you know, for me, a big part of it is going to be the community. I always say, like, we're really just talking about cardboard pictures of strangers, right? Like, think about being Caitlin Clark and being like, there are millions of people that have little tiny pictures of me all over their house. Yeah, that's weird, right? Like, like, just like, like, you know, it's, it's like one of those things where, like, you know, if you boil sports down, right, like, like, it's kind of like my millionaires are better than your millionaires, right? Like, I'm not sure why we always do all this, but, you know, a big part of that, the things that, like, generate value. Like what makes a card more valuable than the other, right. Generally, the things we talk about are things like scarcity and rarity, right? How many of a card is printed, is it limited edition? And then there's variations, right? Like, so a card in gold. Like, people really love, like, gold cards. You know, they may make, like, in a lot of sets, gold would be like a print run to 10, but there may be, like, metallic speckled cards. It's a print run of three. But most people like gold more than metallic. So even though that is a higher print run, it may be more valuable, right? Condition is big. And that's when I started using, like, the nerdy PSA 10 lingo. Like, you want a card that is in pristine condition, right? You wouldn't, like, like, the goal. And this is where, like, humans are weird. Like, I don't mind if my, like, Babe Diedrick and cards from the 1920s look like they were from the 1920s. Like, I don't look like you might.
- [16:55]
Zena Kaeda
Give it a little bit more legitimacy, right?
- [16:57]
Anne Marie Farrell
Like, I was born in the 1990s. No one's gonna, no one. You know, like, I, I, I'm not sure I grade well these days, but, you know, we look for ones that are centered and pristine, and there's companies that can grade that. And then there's like, market trends, right? So like player popularity, sport popularity, right. The NBA card market is significantly larger than the WNBA card market, right? So again, time of year, right? Like, cards will often do better during the season than they will do out of season because things are more, you know, players are maybe more relevant or things that are happening, companies, reputation. There's many card makers and many have sprouted up since, you know, the COVID boom. So different releases, popularity. So all these things sort of factor into it. And it may be similar to, you know, a Beanie Baby, a coin, stamps. I mean, human beings, we like to collect things.
- [17:52]
Sabrina Merchant
So you mentioned that the COVID boom was big for the card industry. But I'm wondering, like, how much did nil factor into women's trading cards?
- [17:59]
Anne Marie Farrell
I used to say there were two lies that Americans would say every year we'd say that this year we're going to start watching soccer and this is the year we're going to fix the ncaa, right? And you know, the NCAA is our favorite cartel, right? Like we, you know, love the ncaa, so. But it's incredible to think of the reckoning that is happening in terms of like the revolution that's happened in college college athletics. I absolutely think Nils have had a huge factor in, in female athletes being able to create a brand for themselves on social media. We know that. You know, again, I would. These are the kinds of arguments I get into in classes and bars and stuff where I think right now women's college basketball is just a more interesting, more compelling product. And a lot of it has to do with the narratives and the people that we see. Like, and I, you know, social media has been able to turn a seasonal Sport into a 12 month discussion, right? And, and you know, athletes don't have to wait for a press reporter to make them relevant on a magazine. They can get rid of the middleman and go directly to fans. And that's what women, female athletes have done. So Nils, absolutely, I think have been able to allow athletes the ability to, you know, take control of their own story. And I think particularly that's interesting to people we know. You know, fans of women's sport are, are more similar to fans of men's sport than they are different. But one thing we know about fans of women's sport are more motivated by human interest stories. Like we want to know the athletes, we want to know about them, we want to know their story.
- [19:44]
Zena Kaeda
So I'm curious if that actually helps the whole women's basketball trading card market because now not only do you have value from, you know, players, player cards coming out that have performed really well. You know, thinking about Diana Taurasi, thinking of a Caitlin Clark, thinking of any of these players that are coming out and performing well, but now you also have these narratives behind them that make them even more enticing of a card to potentially have. Like how when you've, what you've seen over the course of the time that you've been in this market, being at the very first WNBA game, which is very dope, but also just seeing the growth of this league and, and the growth of people regarding this league. How have you seen women's basketball trading cards grow over time, right?
- [20:33]
Anne Marie Farrell
Well, and I think there's again, there's some, like, distinct, like, I think about some, like, distinct, like, eras of women's. Women's basketball cards, right? So 1990 and we had. There were women's basketball cards Prior to the WNBA in 1997, we had ABL cards and WPA cards. But you had 1997. You have the WNBA show up. Pinnacle and Fleer basically own the WNBA license from about 1997 to 2005. And they have, I would say, kind of traditional products. A traditional product every year. One couple years, we had two products, hobby boxes that would go out with packs and people can rip cards. Right? Big print runs, some variations of parallels. Right. 2005, FLIR goes bankrupt and a company called Rittenhouse takes over the NBA license. And Rittenhouse is a company that wasn't known in the sports space. They were known more for science fiction and fantasy cards. Ultimately, they're going to use a different strategy for distribution instead of printing, having a large print run, right. Of, you know, thousands and thousands of boxes, whatever, they would sell, like direct to consumer sets. So like a full WNBA set. But they're going to make them more limited, right. And they're going to have fewer variations, but they're going to use them as like an auto or variation that is an incentive to buy more boxes. Right. There's some differences in this. Like, they use a more traditional model in like 2008, which would be Candace Parker's year. But then, for instance, the big change here, right? And this is all before Panee Donrus gets the license. Panini gets the license in 2019. And here we are today with, you know, Panini having a license and other companies involved. The big difference with Rittenhouse is that they made sets more limited. And I had mentioned that a big driver of value is going to be rarity. So for instance, in 2002, Fleer came out, the set authentics. Right? 2002 is going to be Sue Birds rookie year. Their print run for sue bird rookies was 2002. That was the print run for Sue Bird rookies, right. Nine years later, Maya Moore becomes the biggest thing to enter the WNBA. Rittenhouse has the license in 2011. There's 2002 Flir Sue Bird rookies. Nine years later, there's 223 Maya More rookies. That's it.
- [22:51]
Zena Kaeda
Oh, wow.
- [22:52]
Anne Marie Farrell
There's only 223 Mya More rookies. Compare that to Panini's release just a few weeks ago. Of the Caitlin Clark rookie of the year instant card, which has a print run of exactly 115,750 cards. We're talking like, that is. So we went from. That's a very. That model has shifted. Yeah, Right, Right. So again, I think about it in those eras now, today, right. Like, I think if we look at the WNBA marketplace today, it has grown and we're talking about, you know, a year and a half, right? So you had a big group in 2020, you had Sabrina come into the league, and she brought with her a lot of interest. You have the, the spike during COVID of people interested in the hobby. And that has, you know, so that brought us from, you know, a smaller niche group to a larger niche group. Remember, we're still a niche group within the overall hobby. Right. And now you have sort of Caitlin and this rookie class entering. And again, Caitlin has brought in and she's kind of, I would say her in the rookie class has brought in a lot of. A lot of new collectors. But they're often collectors coming from other fan collector groups like the NBA, for instance.
- [24:13]
Zena Kaeda
They're already collectors, but now they're just.
- [24:15]
Anne Marie Farrell
Interested in bringing in new people into the hobby. But a lot of what I see is converts that are coming over, and a lot of them are saying, I want to take advantage of this generational player like Caitlin Clark, and I'm going to use it to sort of flip and make money quicker. Right. Traditionally, I would say women's sport collectors held cards they don't like. Like in card market, they'll say, you know, it's like a stock, like you buy low and it increases in value because market forces change and then you sell and it's high. Right. Women's sport collectors, that hasn't really been a big factor in the market. It's. I think that's relatively new because prices have skyrocketed. Right. Not because of necessarily only Caitlin Clark, but because interest in the WNBA and college women's basketball and women's sports have skyrocketed. So one of the things that again, my students in my sport marketing classes will just roll their eyes and like, drown me out after a few minutes. The biggest predictor of spend by fans within a marketplace for sport is fan avidity. How big of a fan you are. Women's sport fans have a higher fan of it than men's fans, right? So NWSL fans, PWHL fans, WNBA fans score at higher levels of fan avidity than NBA, mls, NHL. Right. It makes sense, right? If I want to Listen to experts who are knowledgeable about women's basketball. I can't always just turn on ESPN and get a group of women and men talking.
- [25:51]
Zena Kaeda
The work is harder.
- [25:53]
Anne Marie Farrell
Find it.
- [25:53]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to put in more effort. Yeah.
- [25:56]
Anne Marie Farrell
Into a PWHL game. Right, right. So by nature, we spend more time consuming. Right. Our fan that makes total. It's why also you see one reason that you see return on investment for sponsors is greater in some of our leagues during COVID Right. Nwsl, nwhl, WNBA had higher return of investments for sponsors because we, we will, you know, the brands that support us and our teams as extension of us, we will support as well. So what's interesting is fantasy sport and gambling and sport cards all work similarly in that they increase a person's fan of it. Either of you do fantasy sports?
- [26:43]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, a little bit.
- [26:44]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, a little bit.
- [26:45]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right. Do you think because of fantasy sports, you read more about athletes you watch more?
- [26:51]
Sabrina Merchant
Absolutely.
- [26:51]
Zena Kaeda
Absolutely. Absolutely.
- [26:53]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right. Same thing with gambling. Same thing with trading cards. Right. The money that is going to leagues through to gambling, for instance, the vast majority of the revenue that is coming from gambling interest aren't directly coming to leagues. They're coming indirectly through fans consuming more product and buying more stuff.
- [27:10]
Zena Kaeda
Stuff.
- [27:10]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right. So again, you have, you have women's. So I would, I've argued for years, WNBA collectors, right. We are a smaller niche market, but we spend more because we have a higher fan of it. Right. It's a, it's a higher driver.
- [27:25]
Zena Kaeda
It seems like it takes more energy to be a fan of your team and of your league because of how much you have to go seek it out, how much you want to support so that it remains relevant and becomes a little bit easier. This. That is super, super interesting. Yeah. I never thought about it that way, but it is true. I don't want to say that women's sports fans are more dedicated, but like, technically they're a little bit more dedicated.
- [27:51]
Sabrina Merchant
You have to work harder.
- [27:52]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, you have to work harder. Like, yeah, you're more dedicated to be able to keep your sport relevant and to keep you up to date with what's going on in that sport. Oh, that's very interesting.
- [28:02]
Anne Marie Farrell
I mean, I went and I drove for the, for the Boston Fleet PWHL home opener. I drove an hour and a half out of my. In Boston traffic to get a jersey. I don't just like walk into a store and trip over wnba. Like, you just, you, you like, it's. It takes more of a commitment. Right. But even like you think about you know, people mentioned, like, Caitlin Clark right now, and we talk about scope of size, right? My friend Joy from Harris Sports shared some really interesting data with me the other day because we are nerds who nerd out about cardboard, right? If you think about Victor Weyama, right? Like, he plays boy. Boy basketball, right? In the mnba. He's a big. Apparently he's very good at it. He's very tall. He's very good at. Which I'm glad. I'm glad there's NBA cards. I. I'm glad that we live in a society where little boys can grow up and be like, I can be a basketball player. I'm all about that. Right? Like, everyone's talking about Clayton Clark, like, massive focus on Kate and Clark. Her daily sales volume of trading cards is less than 1/10 of Victor women Yama's sales volume.
- [29:01]
Zena Kaeda
Wow.
- [29:01]
Sabrina Merchant
That's like worldwide or nationally.
- [29:03]
Anne Marie Farrell
That's. That's like, I believe domestically when we look at, like on ebay and others and other platforms, right? So like, even like Caitlin Clark is still like our. Our biggest volume focus mover collector market. It's still less than 1/10 of probably one of the biggest in the NBA. So we are. It is a niche market, but it's a niche market that will spend more because our fan of ID is going to be higher.
- [29:30]
Sabrina Merchant
Who else moves cards other than Caitlin? Like, what other names do you see as really big popular women's basketball trading cards?
- [29:38]
Anne Marie Farrell
Well, again, a lot of trading cards are also, like, it are also focused around rookies, right? Like, we're kind of obsessed with news. So juju like, like Watkins, Hannah Hidalgo. I would say juju right now. And Caitlin Clark are big that people ask desk. It's also fun to figure out how the. I keep a list by my desk of the different ways when people contact me and my Instagram people spell Caitlin Clark's name wrong. I have like, a lot of them. It's like a really. It's a fun list, right, I'm sure. But you know, aj, Wilson, Sabrina are sort of big movers. There's always the players that I'm constantly like, why are they like, under valued? Right? And then there's the ones that, like, aren't undervalued. But I know why they're super valued. Like Lexi hall, right? Like, outsized influence. Right. Or like Nica Mule. Every time my friends always, I always. I'm a horrible. Maybe a horrible. But every time Nico Mule comes up in like a auction, I'm always like, two points. Like, I just wrote Two points in the chat. Because I'm like, she scored two points, right? Like, she has two points. She scored two points more than shaped Eddie last year. Like, bid high, people. Bid high. Right. Like, you know, so. And part of it is those market forces, like, what athletes are people interested in? I know, like, you know, Kelsey Mitchell got a little bit of a bump. You know, I always like to be like, oh, Kelsey Mitchell, the best player on the Indiana Fever. And people, you know, just to like, wait it out and see because, you know, I'm a buck. I did my doctoral work at Ohio State. Cameron Brink, I mean, the whole rookie class. So there's a. There's a lot of interest in movers. And then you have like, I talked about the written out. You have some of those, you know, like, older, more scale, like the Maya Moore's, the Taurasi, the like, older cards with smaller print runs that I think there's been a renewed sort of focus and interest on.
- [31:22]
Zena Kaeda
Is Angel Reese a part of that list with like, okay, is.
- [31:27]
Anne Marie Farrell
But it trailing.
- [31:28]
Zena Kaeda
Right.
- [31:28]
Anne Marie Farrell
I mean, it is a. It is a. You know, I wouldn't say she's neck and neck with Caitlin and interest. There's definitely interest in her. But I would. I would say, you know, Paige Becker's Cameron Brink. I would say they probably right now generate more interesting just in the hobby for. That's another podcast probably about why that is.
- [31:47]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, I can imagine.
- [31:48]
Anne Marie Farrell
Yeah.
- [31:49]
Zena Kaeda
If our listeners have never traded before. I am one. Let's. I'm not a listener, but I am a person that has never traded before.
- [31:56]
Anne Marie Farrell
We're getting you started.
- [31:58]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, well, tell me, like, tell us, like, how would one get into this space?
- [32:04]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right. So the nice thing is there's. There's different ways you could go about it. I will sometimes just black out and find myself in Target. Like, I don't know what happens, but, like, I'm doing something. And then I blacked out him in Target. Right. It also happens with Marshalls and T.J. maxx. Right. You could. It's. It's like, you know, it's. It's. Yeah. So you could go to Target right now and you might go down to like, where they have this, the. The sport cards. And you may be able to pick up a small box that. They're called Blasters, right? Of like maybe seven or so packs of like WNBA select or a Caitlin Clark release that they have. Have. You might even see NWSL Parkside soccer cards there. Right? Like, those are accessible. Walmart sells them. You can. And you can open a box and you can look at these really cool cards. And so you open that box up that you got from Target with, you know, you went there to get two things, you left with 400 worth of goods.
- [33:02]
Zena Kaeda
Yep.
- [33:02]
Anne Marie Farrell
And, like, exactly. You can go online to, like, you know, niche fan communities. Like, like, I'm a moderator in a Facebook group that's just dedicated to WNBA cards, and there's lots of different WNBA groups. You can go on Reddit or your Discord and find communities and be like, hey, I got this, like, really amazing, you know, Tina Charles card, which is never worth as much as it should be because Tina Charles should be worth a lot more. Agreed. And. But there's. There's. There's going to be someone on there that is, like, looking for that Tina Charles card. Right.
- [33:42]
Zena Kaeda
And you can trade it, right?
- [33:44]
Anne Marie Farrell
Or you could be like, hey, I hit this. You know, I hit this Angel Reese Color Match auto, and wow, that's 150 card. I'm gonna go on ebay, right? And I can post it for sale and then I can sell it, or I can go into ebay at like 2am when you've. After you've watched eight hours of Dateline and like, while normal people are sleeping, you can look for, you know, like, you know, Lisa Leslie's, you know, college car. You know, like, you can just search to your heart content. So, like, you can literally just trip and target get a card and that can start you on. Or you can go to a trading card card shop and they may have some WNBA cards, but it's really easy. And, and you know, the fan communities, we, we love, we love new people. Just. Just spell Caitlin Clark's name right. Just that, Just, just.
- [34:33]
Zena Kaeda
That's important.
- [34:34]
Anne Marie Farrell
Please. Yeah, just. Or try not to mansplain me in it. I'll be nice, though.
- [34:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay. So you said they only ever made223 Maya more rookie cards, right?
- [34:44]
Anne Marie Farrell
Yes. So. Yes.
- [34:45]
Sabrina Merchant
What is, what is the value of a Maya More rookie card at this point?
- [34:48]
Anne Marie Farrell
So again, this is kind of like, I haven't checked the value because I'm really bad at selling them. Like, at one point, like, she also has a. She had a. They released an auto variation of hers that there was only 33 of. And I had like, three. And I had this, like, moment where I was like. I was like, does one human need to have.
- [35:07]
Zena Kaeda
That's a power.
- [35:09]
Anne Marie Farrell
Yeah. I was literally like, I have so little power in my life that I was just like, I am called to trade these away, to share the. Like, it was just like, you know, that's. Well, here's the thing. I will say this. Like, you know, I would say again, depending on if it's graded condition, value raw, you maybe look, you could maybe get that card for 800, maybe less. 600, right? 500.
- [35:36]
Zena Kaeda
Wow.
- [35:36]
Anne Marie Farrell
And this is where. Where I think people get, you know, I, on the other hand, I ripped a. A opened a hobby box. Rip is like the cool kid, right?
- [35:45]
Sabrina Merchant
Right.
- [35:45]
Anne Marie Farrell
Ripped box. So, like, yeah, when you're out later and you're like, I just ripped a box. Right? You can just be like, yeah, yeah, I know what I' I love it. I hit, you know, the 890th Caitlin Clark auto that has been released in her lifetime and sold it for like $1200. Like, there is that disconnect between that, like Maya Moore and Caitlin Clark. But I think part of it is you like Caitlin Clark because so many people have come into the market, they don't compare Caitlin Clark to, like a rookie, to, like a Maya Moore rookie. In terms of value. A lot of it is like NBA collectors that are like, oh, man, this Caitlin Clark auto is so much cheaper than what I could get a Luca Donchic rookie for. So Caitlin Clark isn't comping to, like, other WNBA cards. Caitlin Clark is emotionally and mentally and and economically comping to NBA elites and football elites. The overall hobby market.
- [36:41]
Sabrina Merchant
Got it.
- [36:41]
Zena Kaeda
The card that just recently sold. I'm gonna. I'm gonna make sure I try to say this as cool as you will, Anne Marie. 2020.
- [36:49]
Anne Marie Farrell
My answer would be too much.
- [36:51]
Zena Kaeda
2024. Panini Select, WNBA signatures, gold vinyl Caitlin Clark rookie card numbered one of one, sold at Golden Auctions, ESPN report. 234, $850,000. Like, what? That's insane.
- [37:08]
Sabrina Merchant
So you could buy a house in Iowa or a one of one K, right?
- [37:13]
Zena Kaeda
Like, that's $234,000 for a go. But is it because it was like. I mean, it's. It's a combination one of one, right? Yeah, it's one of one. It's Caitlin Clark. It's gold.
- [37:25]
Anne Marie Farrell
And someone's gonna say to you, imagine what a Michael Jordan one of one rookie auto would be now, right? It's not being compared to what you can get a Diana taurasi out of 25, right?
- [37:35]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah.
- [37:35]
Anne Marie Farrell
It's part of also that prospecting, right? Like, it's gambling, right? Like, Caitlin Clark tomorrow could be like basketball, I'm done. Right? She could pull Haley Cavender. I guess she's back. But, you know, whatever.
- [37:48]
Zena Kaeda
She could pull am I Am more. But like. Right, yeah, yeah.
- [37:51]
Anne Marie Farrell
You know, Yeah. I could be an influencer. Right. Like, that could happen. Right. And she could leave. Right. Part of it is, is there is a little bit of prospecting and gambling almost in the hobby, whether it be Wembanyama or whether it be Clark. Like, they're always pricing new generational rookies as if they're going to be a Hall of Famer before they ever have hall of Fame.
- [38:12]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, okay.
- [38:14]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right. I mean, and, and no one again. You know, I'd written a piece up for, for the Athletic. I. I actually counted how many different. Different Caitlin Clark cards there were before she made her WNBA debut. And it was ridiculous. It was like, I forget, I have to go back. It was hundreds. Right?
- [38:32]
Zena Kaeda
Oh, wow.
- [38:33]
Anne Marie Farrell
And I'd say, you know, how many cards that Sabrina had before her WNBA debut? 1. An SI for Kids card. And most people don't count that.
- [38:42]
Zena Kaeda
Wow.
- [38:43]
Anne Marie Farrell
Maya Moore, 4.
- [38:45]
Zena Kaeda
Wow.
- [38:46]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right. That's a big difference.
- [38:48]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah.
- [38:48]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right. And part of that is the nil boom. And part of that is money that they, you know, Bowman, they, they decide to come out with more collegiate cards. I mean, the only I think about the Cheryl Swoops card pre wnba, like, like Texas Tech made a, made a giveaway set that they gave out at games. Right. Like, Katie Smith has four Ohio State cards that they gave away at games. Right. You know, Caitlin Clark has more cards than any other WNBA player has ever had before they came out.
- [39:19]
Zena Kaeda
Wow.
- [39:20]
Anne Marie Farrell
But you can't really. You compare Caitlin Clark to Caitlin Clark, like the best, the best comparison price for Caitlin Clark cards are Caitlin Clark cards that already sold.
- [39:29]
Sabrina Merchant
Gotcha.
- [39:30]
Zena Kaeda
Got it.
- [39:31]
Sabrina Merchant
All right, so not to take too much more of your time, but we had kind of hit on this earlier. How have, like, I remember getting into Top Shot actually when it first came out, and now realizing, like, what a silly idea that was. But was it silly, though?
- [39:45]
Anne Marie Farrell
I got a minute.
- [39:46]
Sabrina Merchant
Last year I paid for just like little videos of things. Like, I can't even hold on to them. But how have NFTs affected, like, the collectible market?
- [39:55]
Anne Marie Farrell
So NFTs are interesting. Right. And I, you know, I was reviewing an article because I am. I have my fake job in academia and something really surprised me. Like NFTs have crashed. Right. In terms of value. Right. Like you're like, you were maybe going to retire on your top shot. And I have some top shot too, because I was intrigued by it. Right?
- [40:17]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah.
- [40:18]
Anne Marie Farrell
If you compare 2000. But this was the interesting thing that I learned, right. 2024. NFTs had, the volume of transactions was actually up. There were more NFTs bought and sold in 2024 than in 2021. The difference being the total value of transactions. Right. So the total value of NFT transactions in 2021 was $232 million in 2024, 9 million.
- [40:47]
Zena Kaeda
Right.
- [40:48]
Anne Marie Farrell
That's a big difference.
- [40:49]
Zena Kaeda
So people are just giving out pennies, like exchanging.
- [40:52]
Anne Marie Farrell
That's like Wander Franco's value stock. Right? Like, it is. It is a cratered. Right. But what's interesting to me is that I think when we look at NFTs, more like, again, there are more transactions now than there were in 2021. I think. I think the market has just consolidated and I think what's happened is now you have focus collectors that are still really interested in NFTs, but who's left the building speculators, flippers, people that were intrigued and said, oh, like, like, okay, right. Or that. And again, evidence sheets are tough because you have to explain, like, you know, what really is a, you know, a token and how it is protected. Right. So. So I don't. I think it's not had. You know, again, what intrigues me though, is that volume is actually up.
- [41:38]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay.
- [41:39]
Zena Kaeda
Interesting.
- [41:40]
Anne Marie Farrell
I thought that was interesting. I don't. I don't think it's had a huge boom. Right. I think it was a product. I don't know if it's had a huge impact.
- [41:47]
Sabrina Merchant
Gotcha. I just remember opening every top shot and wanting like a Mason Plumlee reverse dunk. That's like, I can just. I mean, just YouTube that, you know?
- [41:55]
Zena Kaeda
Right.
- [41:56]
Anne Marie Farrell
I would say this. My answer in 2024 is not the same thing. My same answer in 2021. I'm cheating right now by knowing what happened. Right. Like in 2021, my answer would have been much different.
- [42:09]
Zena Kaeda
Sure. Hindsight's 20 20. Wow. This has been enlightening.
- [42:14]
Anne Marie Farrell
You need to go back to you really quickly. I know it's your podcast, but, like, what are you. Like, what are. Like, what am I sending? Like, well, that's what I was trying.
- [42:21]
Zena Kaeda
Like, okay, well, that's actually how I was gonna.
- [42:23]
Anne Marie Farrell
I need to bring it back to you right now.
- [42:24]
Zena Kaeda
Well, no, that's how I was gonna close it out was like, it's an.
- [42:27]
Anne Marie Farrell
Intervention right now is what's happening here. I'm taking.
- [42:30]
Zena Kaeda
I was gonna close it out. I was like, okay, I need to go figure out a way to go black out at Target and get some blasters or. But I also wanna make sure that, like, as we're all around the country, like, blacking out of target. Like, there's also education to be had around what we're getting. So I want to ask, like, where can people find out more about what you're doing and, like, where they should be, like, learning from you. Because I know you're already writing on the Athletic 2 live pieces right now, but even those are now already a little bit outdated. Like, in terms of. I know you cover the Caitlin Clark. All the questions around the Caitlin Clark card. And then you talked earlier this fall about, like, the entire market in general, but, like, where else can people that are listening to this and they're curious, like, find you or just find information.
- [43:18]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right? So a couple things. Like, I am always on my Instagram, which is women on tops two Ps. If you don't do the two Ps, I think you get a very different kind of site. But I am always answering questions. I will say you might get a response. Like, when I get a constant question of, like, what card should I invest in? I'm always like, the card of a mutual fund advisor. Like, the thing that's great about WNBA cards is, is you don't have to spend a lot to have a really rich collecting experience.
- [43:45]
Zena Kaeda
Okay.
- [43:45]
Anne Marie Farrell
Right. I know I donate car every week. So I started a sort of donation program last year where I would send cards out to parents, teachers, coaches, because a lot of times teams would give out, like, baseball cards or basketball cards. But just like me in that Barnes and Noble in 1992, like, there's an amazing thing that happens when a girl sees their favorite athlete. I was at the PWHL Boston game on Wednesday and which was that, or Tuesday, which was two days ago, and I saw a girl that was sitting a row behind me that had a big Hannah Bilka sign. Hannah Bilka was the draft pick out of Ohio State, who's a brilliant hockey player. So I gave her two Hannah Bilka cards and her, like, eyes, just like. I asked her parents, can I give her this? The parents are always like, yeah. And I'm like, I don't know. Stranger danger, you know, and she took pictures with them and, like, held, you know, like, it's just like, like, like, like. So last year I donated. We donated about 45, 000 cards out, and we top 50, 000 this year. So if. If there are people that are like, I would love to get some cards, you can always just message me. And so many people in the collecting community will donate cards to me. And I just send them out, no charge. I I love distributing cards to, to leagues. But yeah, you could totally nerd out. And check out my Instagram, which is only women sports cards cards. But you know, go on Facebook, go on Instagram, type in search women's trading cards. Like go to a wnba, you know, trading group on Facebook and say, you know, Anne Marie told me that these are cool and you know, and ask questions. It's a really open community because that's the whole point. It's if, if it's not about the people, it's just about cardboard. Like, the cardboard is just an excuse to, to chat. It's just a, an excuse for me to, you know, make fun of what, who people cheer for sometimes. Wait, like what's your player? Who are you gonna collect?
- [45:37]
Zena Kaeda
I mean, like, this is what we.
- [45:39]
Anne Marie Farrell
Need to figure out.
- [45:40]
Zena Kaeda
I know. I, I so I'm not gonna lie to you. As we were sitting here, I, I, I googled Maya more trading car just to see what, what my options are. I feel like there's tons of, there's tons of options and they're not expensive options either. They're not. They're not. I actually, actually I'm going to target later today and I'm going to go check out. Yeah, why why not what we're all.
- [46:06]
Anne Marie Farrell
Going to target later today. If you're listening to this, you're going to target later. You may not know it yet, but you're gonna find yourself, find a way. I think that's it. Like what kind of, what kind of players, you know, what kind of athletes do you, do you want to do?
- [46:19]
Zena Kaeda
I want to do basketball. I wanted, I definitely want to do basketball. Like if there was a class that is completely like, I love this past year's rookie class. I think they are like all of the stories from like draft pick. I mean you don't even have to go just first round. You can go to second round, the third round. There's still like all these people that I'm very interested in. So I would, I would love to be, I want to focus on the recent grads and I'd also want to focus on the ones like, like the post players or the forwards that like I swin cash card. Like I would love to look into that. You know what I mean?
- [46:51]
Anne Marie Farrell
Like, I got some cash cards.
- [46:52]
Zena Kaeda
Send you some Angel McCaughrey. Like, I'm just like, you know what I mean? I'm thinking like the, the four that I wish my game was like those are the like the folks that I probably would like start with. But we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. I. We do have to let you go. And I want to ask you one more question before we jump off. How many cards do you have?
- [47:14]
Anne Marie Farrell
You know, that's.
- [47:15]
Zena Kaeda
Is that a personal question?
- [47:19]
Anne Marie Farrell
I have a lot. I have a lot. I have a lot. I. I have a lot. Lot. I have too many. I have a lot.
- [47:24]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. I'm like, is that like asking a.
- [47:27]
Sabrina Merchant
Woman maybe a different question? Like, how do you store cards?
- [47:30]
Zena Kaeda
That's a great one.
- [47:32]
Sabrina Merchant
Like, what sort of place is that occupying.
- [47:34]
Anne Marie Farrell
There you go.
- [47:35]
Zena Kaeda
There you go.
- [47:36]
Anne Marie Farrell
Well, if you ask my partner, she'd be like, on your desk, under your desk, right on top of your desk.
- [47:41]
Zena Kaeda
It's holding up all things in the house. Basically.
- [47:43]
Anne Marie Farrell
I have boxes, right? And I am kind of OCD organized about some things. Like, I have player dividers that I type up, so I haven't divided by sports and then divided by player. And then I have other storage boxes that are just sets, but I don't really collect sets anymore. But I have an Excel file that I actually started in the year 2000. Like, literally, I've had this file since year 2000. Every apartment I've lived in, everything. Like, I have a file started in 2000 that is searchable, that has thousands and thousands of cards on it. Like, thousands and thousands of cards on it. That's so cool. It started when I was in, like, like junior year philosophy class when I was like. Instead of, like, listening to the professor was like, wow, Lisa, Leslie. Oh, yeah. So it's. I've got.
- [48:29]
Zena Kaeda
If Microsoft is listening to this podcast, we need a commercial. Like, we need a brand deal right now. Because that is insane. That's impressive.
- [48:39]
Anne Marie Farrell
It is. Yeah. I need to. This reminds me, I need to update it. But it's funny because my cards, you know how we move like 17 times? Times in our, like, 20s.
- [48:48]
Zena Kaeda
And I had.
- [48:49]
Anne Marie Farrell
I had a rubber. The same Rubbermaid bucket that just said cards. And it was binders of my women's sport cards. And I would just, like, pick the binder up, put it in the apartment. That sucked. Pick, you know, pick the binder up, put it in the other apartment that sucked, you know, and like, and. And now I'm just in a little bit nicer of apartment.
- [49:06]
Zena Kaeda
There you go.
- [49:07]
Anne Marie Farrell
And they're not in binders anymore, so.
- [49:09]
Zena Kaeda
Wow.
- [49:10]
Anne Marie Farrell
It's a story of us. The collecting is our own rich history. I love it. You can have a hoard of cardboard.
- [49:18]
Zena Kaeda
Strangers in your house, a Rubbermaid bucket just like you. This is great. Also, great question, Sabrina. That was another one I didn't think about. But yes, binders. And for those of you that were born after a certain year, that's where we used to store photos and cards and mementos of, you know, of past. Thank you, Emery. Like, this has been awesome. We are so grateful to be able to get a little bit of a peek inside the trading world, get some inspiration, to get some understanding and also get a launching point for those of us listening that are like, okay, I'm not so intimidated by this, like, space that I don't know anything about. This is awesome.
- [49:56]
Anne Marie Farrell
It's just cardboard pictures of strangers. It's, it's really good. Message me, find me. I have cardboard pictures of strangers. I'll get you, I'll get you set up.
- [50:05]
Zena Kaeda
She's your expert on cardboard pictures of strangers. All right, folks, this has been a wonderful another special edition of our interviews here at the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. On behalf of Anne Marie and Sabrina and myself, thank you for your ear and we are always encouraging you to keep listening, keep watching, keep learning and keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. Until next time.
- [50:31]
Anne Marie Farrell
Foreign.
- [50:38]
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Zena Kaeda
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.
- [52:00]
Anne Marie Farrell
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [52:04]
Zena Kaeda
Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where.
- [52:07]
Anne Marie Farrell
We make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige Desorbo.
- [52:10]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Hannah Berner.
- [52:12]
Zena Kaeda
Welcome to the squad.
- [52:13]
Anne Marie Farrell
Giggly Squad started on Summer House when.
- [52:15]
Sabrina Merchant
We were giggling during an inappropriate time.
- [52:17]
Anne Marie Farrell
But of course, we can't be managed.
- [52:19]
Sabrina Merchant
So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling.
- [52:22]
Anne Marie Farrell
We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching Fashion Trend Friends Pep Talks where we give advice, mental health moments, and games.
- [52:30]
Zena Kaeda
And guests.
- [52:30]
Sabrina Merchant
Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:35]
Anne Marie Farrell
ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. Com.