← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Coaching carousel: Can Tennessee succeed under Kim Caldwell?
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- [00:02]
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- [01:21]
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- [02:51]
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- [04:56]
Zena Keda
For the athletic I'm Zena Keda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's hoops. Again. You've probably heard this before but I'm gonna say it again. If you are a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the game or you're just a casual fan that got excited after the tournament. And you are one of the 18.7 million that tuned in to the championship game. Don't worry, this is the space for you. Make sure to subscribe to this pod, wherever you get your pods to stay up to date with us and also subscribe to the Athletic because the amount of coverage that we are giving you right now and will continue to give you all year, that's what you don't want to miss. All right, we have just closed our first NCAA women's basketball season at the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Yay. Hand clap. Hand clap. Hand clap. But before we shift our attention to the WNBA literally next week, we gotta put a bow on a few things and keep an ey on some things that are brewing on the college side. I'm joined today by Athletic women's basketball writers Ben Pickman and Chantelle Jennings. I'm Zena K. Let's go through what we're gonna cover today or what we call our scout number one just mentioned the 18.7 million. Yes. The final numbers of the game, a championship game between Iowa and South Carolina, were published this week. 18.9 million. We're gonna talk a little bit about what that means for the game, the impact that it has, and how that's going to impact other things, including the WNBA. Also this week, as the PAC 12 is saying goodbye to their conference, the NCAA is saying goodbye to legendary coach Tara Vanderveer. Stanford's coach officially announced her retirement. We're going to talk a little bit about that then. The coaching carousel is turning around this off season. There's been some interesting hires made so far on the NCAA side. We'll chat through that as well as some of the transfer portal drama. I was gonna say trauma, because I feel like this anticipation around some of these transfers has been traumatic for me. But yes, the transfer portal drama. And then WNBA draft is on April 15th. That is on Monday. Hear that? Someone here. Ben will be on the grounds. So very much looking forward to talking to him about that. But let's get going. Number one, 18.9 million people tuned in to watch South Carolina take down Iowa in a very exciting back and forth contest. Unbelievable. And then peaking at 24.1 million in those last 15 minutes. Chantel, when you think about the fact that you were there, but you're thinking about the audience at home and what their experience has been all season long, really watching these games, et cetera, but particularly watching that game, you think about the people that probably never have tuned into a game. What do you think their experience was like, being a part of this phenomenon. Like, what do you imagine?
- [08:30]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, I haven't gone back to watch the broadcast yet. I definitely want to do that because it's very different. Different sort of living it in person and watching it on tv. And also I really want to go back and watch a bunch of the earlier rounds when Elle Duncan, Shana Agwumike and Andrea Carter were together for, like, halftime shows and stuff, because it's not very often that you're at a game and you're like, damn, I wish I could be watching the halftime show because everyone's tweeting about it. Right. But obviously both of those broadcast teams got huge props all over. But, yeah, I hope what people saw was kind of what we've seen all along, an absolutely exciting game. You sort of had these two forces between a team of stars in South Carolina going for the 10th ever undefeated season in women's college basketball and a team led by a star in Iowa and Caitlin Clark. And that's compelling tv, no matter how you slice it. And so it sounds like the broadcast team really sort of served that up on a platter. Like, you don't have to come up with storylines in this situation. And it's the national championship game. For me, the thing that's really going to stand out is that this, you know, the women outdrew the men by 4 million. And this is, you know, coming on the tail end of the NCAA signing an eight year deal with ESPN that it valued the women's tournament at 65 million a year. You know, when that came out earlier in the season, I was talking with a lot of coaches who were like, we're going to outpace this pretty soon. And it's like, oh, three months later. You guys have clearly outpaced it already. Right. And I think people, rightfully so, expect the numbers to maybe drop a little bit. But I think there are so many compelling characters and storylines and teams still in college basketball. Like, it's not as though 14 million people are going to disappear next year. Like, I do believe that the product that was put on the floor, the quality of play, the players and coaches that were introduced to America during the season, like, that is still going to be a huge draw for a large section of sports fans.
- [10:35]
Zena Keda
And Ben, being a man in this conversation, you know, Chantelle just mentioned that this game outdrew the men's game. And we've been seeing a lot of pundits say, I can't even name some of the men in this tournament versus the women in this tournament. And obviously you've been covering women's basketball. So you're not the typical archetype of people that are saying that women's game get back in the kitchen and all the other dumb stuff that they say. But you're someone that appreciates the game. But you know that there are some people like you, men that don't. What would be your message to them now that you've seen these numbers? Like, what does this say to those people that want to discount the importance and the legitimacy of women's basketball?
- [11:22]
Ben Pickman
I would just say, stop, don't do it. Watch the games, read the athletic. You know, I think just to echo what Chantel said, like the thing that stuck out all tournament long was just how great the product was. And it's something that isn't necessarily, you know, that alone isn't necessarily new. But it was a combination of great product, great stars and investment from companies like espn, from different sponsors, from, you know, brands supporting athletes and their nil deals or, you know, collectives and, you know, fueling some movement in the transfer portal. Like, there's a number of factors that are led to the kind of boom that we are in. And I think Chantal is right to say that, like, it's probably unfair to the sport of women's college basketball and just like it would be unfair to any sport to say that every single year we're going to set, you know, new records and TV viewership. Like, I, I don't necessarily think that, you know, seven networks say we're going to have, are going to have records next year, but I think it's undeniable to say that, like, the toothpaste is out of the tube here, right? That like, interest is up. And as Chantelle said, it's not going to dip to. They're not going to lose 14 million viewers next year just because Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese have decided to go pro. The product is there, the investment is there, the media coverage continues to increase. And I think that is all really positive. And, you know, Chantel talked about the importance and the implications on the, the new NCAA deal. You know, it's also worth pointing out that the WNBA's current TV deal runs through the 2025 season when its deals with ESPN and Amazon and Ion are set to run out. And, you know, we'll see what the implications right away are this year and what the viewership is like. I mean, we've seen on Wednesday, espn, or rather the WNBA announced that, you know, the Indiana Fever are going to have 36 national broadcasts and streaming windows. Right. And that includes both linear television and streaming. You know, last year they were on ESPN just one time. They were not on ABC, they were not on ESPN2. This year they're going to be on those, one of those three networks eight times by comparison. Right. And, you know, a big reason for that is, frankly, you know, the accelerant that is Caitlin Clark and the interest that she draws in. Though, of course, it should go without saying that Aaliyah Boston is a phenomenal player and worth the attention certainly in her own right. But we're gonna continue to see these increases and I would expect a lot of ratings, you know, boom in the W this year. And so to answer your question in a long winded way, Xena, just watch the games and enjoy it and stop being. Stop with that refrain that has so, you know, for so long dogged the.
- [13:53]
Zena Keda
Sport and also be realistic about the standards. I think that's what you, you know, were alluding to as well, which I appreciate, is that just because women's basketball has done this, everyone that's watched the sport knows the product, knows they're capable of doing this, but it doesn't mean that they now have to be held to this standard in order to be legitimized. But I'm happy that you brought up the aspect of the NCAA deal and the WNBA deal because, Chantel, I know that you've been writing about this and you, you're, you know, well versed in the different ways that this sort of viewership and, you know, recognition and investment can ultimately change the landscape for how these schools interact with the NCAA in regards to the tournament and in general. And then you saw Kathy Engelbert say that, you know, the commissioner of the WNBA say that they expect to double their media rights deal and their next media deal. This is a lot of impact, great impact for the game, for the players, for the programs. Chantel, tell us a little bit about, like, what you're anticipating, what these numbers and this commitment to the game from viewers can provide or produce.
- [15:03]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I mean, Don Staley mentioned it several times throughout the tournament. I'm sure other coaches did as well. I. They just might not have been in Albany or Cleveland. But like, women's basketball has in some ways intentionally been held back for a very long time. This is only the second year in a row that the title game was on abc. And that makes a difference when you think about the number of homes that ABC is in versus espn. If we're talking just sort of Those, you know, like, the whole point is to get this in front of people's eyes, right? And so if it's on espn, there is a large pie there, but if it's on abc, that's a much larger pie, right? And so it's all about getting it in front of people's faces. If you broadcast it, people will watch. That's like my refrain for all of this. And it's only recently, you know, I forget exactly how long the men's tournament has had. All 67 or 63 games, depending on, you know, the length of the tournament broadcast on tv. Like, that has not existed for the women for more than a few years now. Even Caitlin Clark was talking about the wraparound coverage that existed before so that, you know, you didn't even see full games sometimes of the women's tournament. And it was only, you know, in the later rounds, you weren't seeing all these first round games. And so I think about this a lot with like the pack 12 going away. How, you know, the people that I've talked to are like, oh my gosh, Oregon State was so fun. Like, Talia Von Olhoffen was so great to watch. It's like, well, yeah, Oregon State had zero nationally broadcast games this year. Zero.
- [16:31]
Zena Keda
Think about usc. How many people did not get to see juju Watkins?
- [16:35]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I mean, four, if we're counting True TV as a national broadcast partner. Like four. At one point I was, I was doing the math. A few weeks ago, it was six teams, six pack 12 teams in the Sweet 16, if I am doing my math correctly and remembering correctly, with very little sleep. But if you look at ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, Fox, FS1, and NBC, like those six, you know, large channels, the six pack 12 teams in the suite 16 had 10 games total combined on those broadcast networks, whereas South Carolina had 13. I think Notre Dame had 11. Iowa had 11 alone as a team. And so it's just like, how can you get the product and these players and these stars or these should be stars in front of people's faces. And I think looking down the road, the next thing here that we should talk about is units. Like, how does this, you know, validity that comes, you know, it shouldn't require people to watch it, but it does. Like, for the business people, for the people handling the money, like, how does this then turn into units? And Nicole Auerbach wrote a story this week at the Athletic and she got a copy of a proposal that's going around right now that would bring units to women's college Basketball, for every game that a team played, it would be $190,000 a unit, which is like, it's less than the men's still. But this is significant money that would force conferences and programs to invest in women's basketball. And that's obviously what's going to move this forward.
- [18:01]
Zena Keda
And what's important to add on the units conversation, is the fact that the men right now, teams that are going to the tournament, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I know you. You've break. You've broken this down for me before, but teams that were going to the tournament were receiving payment for having gone. Like, there was incentive to go to the tournament and then to go further in the tournament because you would get paid in units. The women were not receiving anything. I understand.
- [18:31]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. So the unit payments go to the conferences. So, you know, if. If Michigan or if Ohio State goes to the tournament and they win a game on the men's side, which I know, I don't know about Ohio State, I know Michigan didn't this year, my alma mater, did not do well in men's basketball this year. But in men's basketball, for every game they played, they would receive a very large sum of money to the Big Ten, and then the Big Ten would redistribute that how they saw fit on the women's side, like South Carolina this year got $0 from any of. Sort of like the broadcast rights or anything, even though, you know, they brought so many eyes to the game by playing in all of those. Those huge matchups.
- [19:12]
Ben Pickman
It's why, like, you know, it's something to stress in this conversation, and it's something that people should stress in their own casual conversations. And it's a point that Chantel makes, and one you made, too, Xena, is that, like, there have been stars in women's college basketball before, like Cheryl Miller. You know, you can pick any number of Tennessee stars from the Pat Summon era. You can talk about Diana Taurasi, Sue Bird, Maya Moore, Tina Charles, Brianna Stewart. Name your UConn player. Like, there have been big stars. But the big difference here is not only the stars, you know, and the concentration of them, but it is that investment, and that is investment from tv. And it is also investment from, like, the unit system that will happen going forward from, you know, the money that will go back into the hands of conferences and then distributed from there. So, you know, those two things should not be separated here. It's not just, you know, college basketball didn't just have stars this year. And ratings spike this year. Like there are other factors that led to the mega TV ratings that came about this year and that will continue to come about in future years.
- [20:13]
Zena Keda
No, that makes complete sense. I want to close out this conversation with just a quote from that Nicole Auerbach piece that I encourage you all to read to understand this a little bit better. Each men's team that participates in March Madness earns a sliver of the NCAA tournament revenue called a unit for making the field and then one unit for each subsequent win. First four victories count two. Now, I know Chantelle mentioned there was six teams in the tournament. There was a first four team too, and that was Arizona. So that the total seven schools. So if Arizona, you know, could have been in that sliver of making money as well on the women's side had this applied to them. Each NCAA tournament unit, I'm continuing the quote. Each NCAA tournament unit is worth just over $2 million and is paid out over the course of six years. Women's teams receive nothing for making or advancing in their NCAA tournament. The disparity is tied to the men's nearly billion dollar media rights deal with CBS/Turner as well as the. And here it is. This is exactly what both of you are talking about, as well as the history of the women's tournament being undervalued and neglected. Definitely go check out that piece. As Chantal mentioned, there's actually a proposal in there. Exciting stuff that it's forcing the conversation. And another thing that's forcing the conversation is conference realignment. And in the midst of conference realignment, of course, the Pac 12 is saying goodbye. There will be just two teams left, but one of the teams that is going to be joining a conference across the country, Stanford, going to the ACC saying goodbye. Oh, to the PAC 12, very tough goodbye. But as if, as if that wasn't already hard enough just the other night at the time that we're recording this, it's Thursday, coach Tara Vanderveer announced her retirement. Now I could be petty and just be like, you know what? She didn't want to travel all the way to North Carolina, I understand. But no, she, after years of making an impact in the game, 45 years on the sideline, she decided to hang up her whistle and her board and allow the next generation to step in. Chantel, you followed Koch Chara for a summer. You followed her even this year. You have seen the ins and outs of how this woman's brain works. And one of the best things that I love about her is how she is consistently trying to learn. And when you think about her legacy, she's not only trying to also always learn, she's also trying to teach. I'd love to hear what your favorite story and all the times that you, you know, covered her and learned about her, your favorite story of her learning and your favorite story of her teaching.
- [23:01]
Chantelle Jennings
That's a really great question, Xena. Gosh, my favorite story of her learning. I'm biased here because I'm from Minnesota, but. But I wrote a piece about her a few years ago. You know, a decade ago, she was thinking about retiring and ended up, you know, buying a cabin and renovating this cabin in northern Minnesota and learning how to. She'd known how to water ski, but sort of like, really, no pun intended, but sort of pun intended, dove in to water skiing and just like, threw herself into this thing. And like, not just water skiing in northern Minnesota, but also in Chautauqua, New York, where she spends part of the summer and surrounding herself with, like, a community of avid water skiers. And, you know, I talked to some of these folks in Chautauqua and Minnesota, and it's like, you know, there's a person who lives on her lake who's like a professional water skier. And he was saying, you know, there's just this, like, older woman and she's out there, like, paddle boarding every morning. And Tara's like, well, yeah, I was paddle boarding every day because I kept trying to figure out, like, how to introduce myself so I could talk to him about water skiing. Like, she was sort of like maneu, her paddle boarding route around the lake to be around this guy's dock when he was out there so she could talk to him about water skiing.
- [24:23]
Zena Keda
Wow.
- [24:24]
Chantelle Jennings
Just the lengths to which she has gone to become a. A very good water skier. And with that story, I had a chance to sit on the boat while she water skied. And like, she's really, really good. Like, I am a pretty good water skier. She is excellent. And she skis with a short rope, which gives you more command in the water and allows you, like, quicker. I ski with a full length rope. She skis with a short rope. Like, she was 69 at the time while she was out there, and I was nine months pregnant. And I was just like, regardless, my mouth just dropped.
- [24:54]
Zena Keda
Like, 69.
- [24:56]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, she's still doing it, but it was like I was sitting there and I was like, I'm in my 30s and I, like, I could try to do this for the next, you know, however many years of my life that I feel like I could, you know, not break my body doing what she's doing, and I couldn't do it. But no, I think that's my favorite story of her as a learner. I think my favorite story of her as a teacher is just like, you know, and this is recency bias a bit. But, like, watching her press conference earlier this week, which she came to fully prepared because she is Tara Vandiver. Like, Kiki Erie often asked a question in the press conference and sort of this, like, really cute moment, and she made a statement. She said, kiki, I'm always going to be your coach or something like that. And it was just sort of this. College sports is sort of put on this pedestal of like, the coach player relationship. And a lot of people talk about how nil and the transfer portal has sort of broken this or like, it's never like that revenue sports, like, changes the relationship and stuff. But you talk to Stanford grads and sort of the relationship that has persisted with them and Tara so many of these players. And it's like, you know, Tara was talking about how she's like, gone to hospitals to meet players babies before. After they've given birth, and she's been to weddings and she's been to funerals. And you just sort of have this person who is 100 herself. 100, an advocate for the game. I have tried to get her to tell me, like, something about women's basketball that she thinks is, like, bad or like a coach that she like, I have tried. I'm like, what do you think of this person? And she won't, like, literally won't say a bad thing about any coach or any program in the country. I know, because I've tried. But, you know, it's just sort of that relationship element where it's like, keke, I will always be your coach. I just thought that was a really beautiful moment and sort of speaks to her legacy as a teacher and a learner.
- [26:45]
Zena Keda
I love that. And, you know, the connection is real. I just did the women's empowerment broadcast with Jay Nepel, one of her premier post players, WNBA players under her. And we got to interview coach Tara, and you could kind of see her kind of straighten up a little bit. When Tara got on the tv, it's like, that's. The reverence for her was still apparent, and it's so cool that they still have that dynamic. And Ben, you had a super dope story about her first undefeated season coaching a JV team and having been someone that was actually at you know, when she got her winningest win, I guess over Oregon State and was able to celebrate becoming the winningest coach in men's or women's college basketball, I had that story in the back of my mind that, you know, she started as a JV coach at Ohio State, going 8, 0 and looking at her entire resume, which you've written about extensively at this point, what's the most impressive thing to you, Ben, of what she's accomplished in her career?
- [27:46]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I will answer that question. I will first give another plug for Chantel's story. Everyone should read it. I can't recommend it enough. It's called On a Quiet Lake and roughly Minnesota Stanford icon, coaching icon Tar Vandevere runs it back one more time. Just google Tar Vandever water skiing. You will find it, you will read it, you will enjoy it. It is worth your time. So I have to get that plug in because enough Chantel, who is blushing and smirking and upset at me that I just did that and I'm snapping.
- [28:14]
Zena Keda
I love to hype him up. Let's go.
- [28:15]
Ben Pickman
To answer your question, I mean, the thing that sticks out to me, Xena, is like when I reported that story out about her time at Ohio State is just the journey from then to now. And I think it was something she reflected on and everyone has started to reflect on. When you think about her career and the moment, you know, of the sport she entered into and the moment she is exiting from, right, that like this is back in the mid-1970s where she was an unpaid assistant coach coaching a junior varsity team as a head coach and an assistant coach at Ohio State. She was also working at the university's rec center, checking in IDs. This is in an era before the three point line. She would drive the van for her teams at Ohio State road games on that JV team and then to see, you know, some of the changes, right, in the sport in terms of gender equity, but in terms of basketball changes to the literal three point line, there was some kind of amazing irony, right? There was like an amazing irony that like her last game came with this three point controversy because considering this is someone who like, you know, began their career about that, like prior to the three point line, neither right. Like she began her career prior to a three point line in college basketball and now, you know, there's two three point lines of different lengths in her last game. She would later find out. It's kind of a cruel irony. But, you know, think about all the changes from encore to investment to players that have passed through her lives to, you know, the success she's had. Three championships, 14 Final Fours, the dozens of Pac12 titles. Like, this is someone who has been a standard bearer in the sport of both women's college basketball, but also the basketball world. I mean, you saw the reverence from figures all over from the wnba, from the NBA, from men's college basketball, from the sports world more broadly. You saw that reverence in so many tributes, both when she, you know, set that record back in January for all time wins, but also upon her retirement earlier this week. And so, you know, you can track so much of the, the change in women's college basketball history by looking at Tara vanderveer's career. And it's kind of amazing that, that she is exiting at this point. I mean, two things I would add to what Chantelle said too. One, and I think we should clarify, Tara actually was explicit that the change for Stanford going to the acc, she said, is not part of her reasoning for stepping away at this time. So I think that should be noted. She was, I think, the only person and will be the only person certainly of her stature to multiple times in her press conference when we talk about learning, you know, she mentioned how she wants to play more bridge and get better at bridge with her mom. And she said that multiple times. Right. Earnestly, genuinely is like something she's excited for in retirement. I don't, I haven't watched every retirement press conference ever. I know that you guys on this call haven't either, but I think it's safe to say she's the only one who's maybe talked about that or at least talked about it multiple times in the way that she did. But, you know, I think that just speaks to who she is as a person and how she's reflecting on, you know, her time in life right now and, and what she wants from the next stage of her life, life more generally.
- [31:13]
Chantelle Jennings
Tara is a very avid bridge player. She has tried to explain the rules to me before my eyes like roll back in my head. I don't understand it. She's also like, tried to recruit my mother to join, they play online bridge. And she was like, well, if you don't want to play, maybe your mom wants to play. And I'm like, Tara, like, do you have this like underground bridge community? Like, what is going on? It does sound like she does.
- [31:35]
Zena Keda
Also, where do you find time?
- [31:36]
Chantelle Jennings
She plays like every day with her mom at 4pm this is something that, you know, they do. And her sisters play and other friends and stuff. But that's amazing. I wanted to throw this back to you because you have. You're obviously in the media now, but you have a different perspective as a former college basketball player and sort of, maybe even a deeper understanding of sort of the reverence that the women's basketball community and the basketball community at large has for someone like Tara. You were playing before. She was the winningest coach of all time, but even then she was Tara. What do you remember about being a player? Like, were you ever in a gym at an AAU event and like Tara walked in and I'm. And like anything like that, where you can sort of speak to the former player side of this?
- [32:18]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. I'll never forget being in Sewanee, Georgia. I think it was. It wasn't junior nationals. I can't remember what it was, but my team had gone far enough to play this big time team out of Minnesota. Minnesota is coming up a lot today, but some big AAU team. And I can't remember if there was anyone on that team that actually like made it far. But like, when I say that from their point guard to their post, everyone was 6 foot and above. And I was at 6 foot, the tallest person on my AAU team. It was, it was quite the matchup, but we were on center court because we. It was one of the later games. And then also this team was being heavily recruited. When I say it was not only just Coach Tara, it was. It was Geno, it was Vivian See, Vivian Stringer. It was Brenda Freese. It was. I mean, it was just like the who's who of. Of coaches. But I will, I will never forget, I had to guard the point guard, which was insane. But she was their best player and she was tall and I was our best defender at her height. And I just remember she was clearly getting recruited by Stanford. Like, clearly. And my coach, you know, pulled me aside and was like, hey, put on a show. Like, this girl is here for Tara and Tara is here for her. Put on a show and you never know what can happen. And I was like, please, I'm not getting. I'm not getting a letter from Stanford. But I just remember my team myself, like, getting hype about getting to play in front of Tara. It was like getting to play. I don't know what the equivalent is. Like, it's like being able, if you're someone that wants to work in politics, being able to give a speech in front of the president when you're in high school. You know what I mean? Like it's like it is getting to see or getting to have one of the biggest and best basketball minds evaluate you and they're not here for you, but you just get to be a part of the scene. It was special and it was always like the Mount Rushmore of like, oh my God, basketball. And for me, like when I started playing basketball was in high school. And so I was looking at, you know, Jayna Pell, particularly her post, her post play, how she like her outlet passes, her poise as a player. And I always wonder, like, I wonder what it's like to play for coach Tara because I felt as if she instilled that in all her players, that poise and that confidence in themselves. And she's always had great post players. So as a post player, I always admire that too. That's a very long winded answer. But I vividly, I can still see her sitting there with her Bob with her back against this wall in Atlanta, in Suwannee, Georgia. But it's always been really special to, to be able to be in the conversation, be in the room with her. You can tell coaches, other coaches are always in awe of her as well, just because of what Ben said, how long she's been doing this. And it rolls me into the next thing of, you know, as we go into the coaching carousel, she's one of the coaches that's retiring. Katie Meyer at Miami retired as well. But thinking about who's going to be filling the shoes in Stanford, one of her players. Right. And how often do you get to have that is one of your players that is coached up alongside you in Kate Pay, being able to potentially fill in shoes for her at Stanford, having learned from her, played with her all the above. But let's talk about these coaches because while that one seems like a perfectly regular fit for Kate Pay to move into that role, interesting choices made by Tennessee. Okay. And just to put some, some things out there as far as like some of the more notable changes in the coaching carousel. Kentucky fired Kyra Elsey and Virginia Tech's Kenny Brooks came in and he's gonna be the head coach there. Miami, Katie Meyer retired I believe after 19 years, amazing career there. And Toledo's Tricia Cullip is gonna come in and fill in for her. Virginia Tech, of course, lost Kenny Brooks to Kentucky and Marquette's Megan Duffy, who did a wonderful job with marquette, ended up 23 8. They lost in the first round of the tournament, but they got to the tournament. She'll be coming in for Virginia Tech, but now let's talk about Tennessee, because Kelly Harper got fired. I don't know if you guys watched that game where South Carolina beat Tennessee in the semis of the conference, the SEC conference tournament. And the look on Kelly Harper's face when Camila Cardoso bank shots that three in either one of you, Please help me figure this out. They fired Kelly Harper, who was a Tennessee grad. She was a home girl through and through. And they've brought in Marshall's Kim Caldwell. Explain this move to me.
- [37:32]
Ben Pickman
It's a good question. I think the first thing I would say, and I think you raise an interesting hypothetical. I'll preface it that way. Like, if that shot doesn't go in and Tennessee goes to the final, and if they beat lsu, does Kelly Harper still have a job as we're talking today? I don't know the answer to the question. Maybe, you know, Danny White, their athletic director, would say, no, not necessarily. Or maybe they would, you know, make the change no matter what. I think that's just a hypothetical that, like, we'll have to live in some uncertainty, I guess. You know, Kelly Harper's Tennessee tenure, you mentioned it. She was a player at the school. She gave a lot in. In some of the most successful times, you know, in the history of Tennessee, for what it's worth. Not just like, she was not just a player. She achieved a ton of success there and had really given her life to the university. Tennessee has really high expectations. I think that is very clear from a move that they made this past week. Right. You know, Kelly Harper's tenure was pretty successful her five seasons. Right. She won at least 17 or at least 17 games. In all of those years, she won, you know, 21 games. 17, 25, 25, 20. She never missed the NCAA tournament during her tenure. Of course, the one year that they did not take part was the COVID Tournament in March of 2020. So that's why there's a blank space in that resume. That tournament didn't exist. But clearly the standard for the program is Final Fours and national championships. And obviously they did not reach that during her tenure. You know, at different times during her tenure, they climbed within the top five of the AP poll, but really didn't ever ascend to a Final Four level team that clearly the administration hopes that they will be. You can argue, like, you know, obviously that's a really high standard that she had to live up to. And maybe she was unfairly punished or just punished for not living up to that standard. And it's fair to question too like, was Tennessee ever going to reach that standard with Kelly Harper? And again, I don't know the answer to that question. Right. They obviously had a lot of talent with Rekia Jackson. The question then becomes, you know, is Kim Caldwell, you know, who spent just one year at the Division 1 level coaching at Marshall and had a ton of success this past year, 17 and 1 in conference, 26 and 7 overall. Is she a vast improvement over Kelly Harper? You know, who's to say right now? I mean, I think it's certainly fair to, to question and to wonder about that change and you know, will they be better next year? I'm not really sure. Will they be better in the next two or three years? Again, who knows? You would hope this higher, it seems like is a long term play for Tennessee, but you know, on paper it's certainly A, an A to B to go from Kelly Harper to Kim Caldwell, you know, is an interesting pivot to say the least.
- [40:29]
Zena Keda
And Kim Caldwell seems like the golden child of the Sun Belt Conference. She got the coach of the year, she's rookie coach of the year. They, you know, it definitely seems as if there's a lot of, of momentum behind her, but it still seems very drastic to go from Kelly Harper, five seasons, a winning record 108, 52 in the five seasons to now someone that has only had one year of momentum and success. Chantelle, I know you were going to add something to that.
- [41:01]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, the word momentum to me feels like a multi year thing. Like Caldwell had a great first year and that is what she has. Like Ben, you know, we don't know what's going to happen at Tennessee, but I will say that, you know, as the rumors started swirling about Kim Caldwell being in the running for this job, it was just one of those things that I was like, this feels just very sort of outside of the box, right. Like I thought Kelly Harper had at least one more year of Runway at Tennessee because I wasn't sure why you sort of, you know, get rid of her at this point because you're looking at the SEC right now and next year Texas and Oklahoma come into the fold and Kelly Harper's teams have only finished, they finished in the top three in the conference in four of her five seasons. They finished fourth this year and now, you know, usually that is behind like LSU and South Carolina. Those are two Final Four teams. Okay. So if that's sort of the upper, upper echelon of your conference and you're finishing in third behind them, it's third, but it's not like finishing third in a mid major conference. You know, it's not like.
- [42:17]
Zena Keda
Right.
- [42:17]
Chantelle Jennings
It's, it's not bad necessarily. And now you're adding Texas and Oklahoma. You have teams like Vanderbilt, which took a huge step forward this year with Shea Ralph, Ole Miss and Mississippi State sort of steadily growing in their profiles. And now I'm looking at this conference and I'm saying, you know, there's, there's a value to having stability, especially during conference realignment. We've seen some commits for Tennessee reopen their recruitments. The latest I've seen with Jewel Spears, she's not sure what her plans are for next year yet in terms of if she's going into the portal or not. And so you have this instability now and a time when the conference is only getting deeper. And perhaps Danny White is saying, you know, it is worth it to sort of take a step back for two years to. If Kim Caldwell is in fact the right long term hire for this program, if he thinks Kim Caldwell is the team that gets them back to a national championship six years down the road, that's great. It just felt like a very interesting move to make at this point when the conference is getting deeper, when it felt like there were still some pieces here. When you looked at this Tennessee team this year and you said, you know, Tamara Key was out for part of the year, Ricky Jackson was out for part of the year, like the losses were explainable. It's not like these were all terrible coaching decisions and you look at a shot like Camila Cardoso's Bank 3 and say, was that really the decider one way or the other? This sort of, you know, I won't call it lucky because South Carolina says she's making those in practice all the time, but we don't have sort of the game tape to prove it one way or the other. Right, Right. So it just felt, you know, and this is all like locker room material, right? That, that Kim Caldwell can put up, that the athletic doubted that this is a great move and, you know, she can prove us wrong and we'll have her on the podcast and she can call us an idiot. But like, firing Kelly after this season didn't make as much sense to me unless the swing that you were going for was someone that. It was like, well, duh, you get rid of Kelly Harper if you're hiring Becky Hammond, if you're hiring Carol Lawson to fire Kelly Harper to bring in Kim Caldwell just felt a little bit more like a head scratcher. To me.
- [44:27]
Zena Keda
And the, the Carol Lawson mention is a big one because I think that that was the initial thought. A lot of people thought that that Carol Lawson might be able to go from Duke to Tennessee. Ben, thoughts on that?
- [44:38]
Ben Pickman
Well, I would also add to the, you know, the places that Chantelle listed out in the SEC is Kentucky, right? And so, you know, Chantelle rattled off a number of programs that have been strong.
- [44:48]
Chantelle Jennings
Kentucky, right.
- [44:50]
Ben Pickman
Continue to be strong, but like Kentucky hired Kenny Brooks, having not made the tournament in each of the past two seasons. And Kenny Brooks is reportedly going to be the third highest paid coach in the conference and is someone who took a team to the Final Four two years ago now and has had a ton of success in the acc. And you better believe that he's not just taking that job unless he knows that his university is going to invest in the women's basketball program and give them money for NIL and for their collective and support the program and try and build it into a championship school. And already we see Georgia Amor, who could have been a potential top 10 draft pick in this upcoming WNBA draft, make the decision to go to Kentucky with Kenny Brooks. So, you know, you can list off the power players in the sec. Kentucky is surely establishing itself, you know, not just to be a power player this coming year, which will be Georgia Amore's last, but, you know, I look at her deciding to join Kentucky as also a move that says like, you know, can Georgia Amore help establish some of the culture on court and in the locker room and around the program that Kenny Brooks wants, right? That like suddenly in Georgia he has a player who, you know, knows his system, knows what he's like as a communicator, knows what he's like in different settings and can be, you know, she's obviously a player first, but kind of be a little bit of a hybrid or a go between who can speak to that experience for players who might not have come? Virginia Tech. And so that's not just a move for this season. Like, that's a long term play as well. So I would add that too, just.
- [46:30]
Chantelle Jennings
To, to piggyback on that, Ben, like bringing Clara Strack from Virginia Tech as well. Like, that's another actual long term move. She's got three years of eligibility remaining. We saw how solid she was after she stepped in for Liz Kitley when she was injured. And we've seen the way that Kenny Brooks and his staff develop post players. So it's like if, if, if Strat can even sort of follow in the Liz Kitley footsteps. Like you have your, your post presence there for the next three seasons. And so he's, he's not just stepping into sort of a new job, but he has those pieces that he's bringing with him that allow a bit more uniformity from Virginia Tech to Kentucky and, and sort of a jump start on whatever he's going to try to build there.
- [47:11]
Zena Keda
I love our writers because they're just so smart and they know exactly where I want to go. And you're already teasing exactly what I talk about, which is the transfer portal. But to close out this coaching carousel conversation, I do want to put some respect on Kim Caldwell's name just to like, give a little bit of context as to what she did achieve at Marshall. She was able to get them their second ever NCAA tournament birth and first since 1997 this past year. And also she's gotten the rookie Coach of the Year honor. I thought it was really interesting that when she was the D2 Glenville State coach and she won the D2 national championship, she actually was given the Pat Summits trophy, which is presented annually to Women's Basketball Coaches Association National Coach of the Year in each of the five membership divisions. So she won it for D2. So maybe the writing was in the cards just a little bit for Kim Caldwell there, but either way, very, very different. Switch up for, for Tennessee, especially with the, the heritage of coaching that they have there. And I want to ask this question because it, I think it also ties in with the players. When you think of a coach, the incentive to go to a new school is usually money investment, right? Not only your own money, like your own paycheck, but also investment into the program, ensuring that you have the right materials, staff, venue, all the above. And I just wanted to know from the conversations that you guys have had over the years covering this sport, what usually influences a coach wanting to change roles when there's not necessarily an immediate need to change? I look at Kenny Brooks at Virginia Tech and I go, I mean, had Liz Kitley not gotten hurt, they probably would have went deep in the tournament. But what have you guys heard, observed, or maybe just your, your assumptions as to why a coach would want to switch?
- [49:13]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think obviously this is, can be pretty individual, but I think there are some things that are true in a number of cases. I mean, one, let's be clear, salaries of coaches is a big one. Like how much are you frankly getting paid at a university and what can that new school offer? That's one, in this era of NIL and collective. Like, what is the financial investment that, you know, players at, you know, your university can get, right? Are they able to, you know, have more nil money distributed? Are there more donors and, you know, sponsors and boosters that are supporting the program? You know, what does fan support look like? What does administrative support look like? You know, these are something in the men's context, and maybe this is recency bias, but I was watching John Calipari's press conference in Arkansas, just watching it back just for fun, and I think think he had a line that I think applies to a lot of college sports that are like, coaches win basketball games, but administrations and programs win championships. And I think, you know, that speaks to this overall idea that like investment. Anyone or coaches can win a game here and there and find ways to win games. But a lot of these great programs have investment from people at the very top and have financial investments. And that's, I think, something that, you know, we've heard some of these coaches who have, you know, someone like Kenny Brooks talk about, excited about the investment, investment behind him at Kentucky. And that's something they've been, you know, proud to discuss so far in his tenure with the Wildcats. So, you know, that is a big factor too. Another factor. You know, sometimes coaches, there is a cycle to this in college sports. Like I, I do look at the Kenny Brooks decision potentially as one that, like Elizabeth Kitley's turning pro, you know, Georgia Amore was faced with a decision in her own career. You know, certainly, I guess looking back, George, Amy would have come back to Virginia Tech and Kenny Brooks would have come back. But it also did feel like a little bit of a crossroads moment at this time in the program. And so sometimes you see, you know, coaches leave after their stars have departed to the program or just moved on to different jobs in the profession. So I think that is another factor too, that, you know, sometimes factors into some of these jobs. When you see someone go from point A to point B, I think Ben.
- [51:14]
Chantelle Jennings
Hit most of the things. The only thing I would add in terms of financial support from the administration is, you know, it's not just looking at the salary for the head coach. One of the things that I've talked to coaches over the last few years is expanding the salary pool for assistance. We saw the NCAA add two more assistant coaching roles onto staffs last year. Those coaches aren't able to, like, go out and recruit, but they can do stuff on campus. And so being able to compensate assistant coaches better and sort of attract those high quality assistant Coaches that, you know you're going to be working so much, making sure those people are compensated really, really well and that they feel valued in their role with you and that they're going to want to stay with you and not sort of jump to whatever might be paying a little bit better. I think that specifically the assistant coaching salary pool is important. And I don't know, I haven't seen the contracts yet for, you know, I don't think he's hired his full staff at Kentucky yet. But it'll be interesting to sort of see what the salary pool looks like for the assistance with a lot of these different moves that we've seen so far. Far.
- [52:15]
Zena Keda
Okay, that all makes sense. So now let's switch it and put it into the mind of the player. What influences a player to enter the transfer portal?
- [52:26]
Chantelle Jennings
This feels like an answer that has changed every year because a few years ago the NCAA allowed a single time transfer without sitting out. We saw sort of the proliferation of transfers, and I think initially it was thought of as like players who were in a situation that maybe they could have been in a better situation. And I think right now what we're seeing is a lot of like, where is there more opportunity for. For me as an individual or nil, where might I be happier? I think conference realignment, this current round of transfers, we're seeing a ton of that. I mean, when Oregon State lost, Scott Rook had been asked about, you know, are you worried about this roster sort of turning over a ton? And we already have seen three Beavers at this point in the transfer portal. Talia Von Olhoffen and Tamia Gardner, sort of as the top two. But that's huge, right? Like players who, amid conference realignment, you know, maybe picked a school committed to a school two years ago when they thought, I'll be able to stay, you know, in a power conference and play near my family. And now suddenly it's completely different. The landscape of the sport has completely changed. And so. So I think nil comes into it. Like, we can't lie about that. We're not going to sit here and act like every player who's transferring is only doing so because they think that there's a better opportunity for them on the floor. No, there's players who are going to be looking at sort of, you know, what is the collective at the school doing? What are the other players doing off the floor in terms of representation? How much visibility do I have? Being on TV is a part of that as well. And we've outlined different conferences that have better broadcasts and broadcast partners. But I also think, you know, system wise, it'll be really interesting to see a school like Iowa for instance, do they go into the portal and have sort of more interest at this point? Because a player like Caitlyn kind of showed so many other guards, like when the read and react offense is working at its best, this is what it can look like. And do we see more interest from players who say, oh, actually that's an offense that I really want to be playing in? Or specific players like Tahina Powpow last year, like goes into the portal thinking she's going to tcu. And Don Staley's like, no, I have a spot. Like maybe you didn't imagine yourself being here, but I imagine you being here. And so it goes both ways. But I would say like coaches, like it's not a one size fits all. It's not like all of these fall under one reason. And it's definitely a yes and situation. But you know, I think the one truth is that like it's not going anywhere. We're gonna see a ton of transfers every year and, and you know, we're not done yet. I'm sure there's going to be several more players that jump into the transfer portal. You know, this is Thursday at 2pm like today. Tomorrow we're gonna see more probably for sure.
- [55:11]
Zena Keda
Ben, before I get your thoughts on this, I do want to kind of list some of the big names in the transfer portal right now. Haley Van Lith at lsu, Deja Kelly, senior out of unc. She's been like a, a face of that program for a while. Entered the transfer portal. Nat Marshall, post player at Notre Dame as well as KK Bransford, both have entered the the transfer portal. Ivy League mentioned always. But seriously, when you think about what the Ivy League did for the USC team and their transfers. Caitlin Chen entered the transfer portal. And then you mentioned Oregon State's Tamia Gardner, offensive rebounding powerhouse during the tournament and everyone got to see that on display. And then of course Thalia Van Olhoffen at Oregon State and then Jania Barker at A and M. I feel like that's going to be a really big pickup 64 athletic, like big time player. But there's tons more that are in the portal right now. But Ben, what are your thoughts? Like why would someone transfer and what would they be looking for in their new school?
- [56:21]
Ben Pickman
The thing I would add is one, just to be clear here, these players can all elect to go back to their own own schools. If they so choose, even by entering the portal. Except for someone like Caitlin Chen in this context, who by Ivy League eligibility rules has to go somewhere else. So her case is a little bit different. The one thing I would add to what Chantelle said is also pro prospects. Right. The WNBA is obviously a super competitive league. There's 12 teams. You know, it's rare or it's rather it's difficult for a second round pick to make a team, let alone a third round pick. And so, you know, some of these players potentially are looking for how can I improve my draft stock? How can I play a role that puts me in a position to play at the next level and get as much attention from GMs and scouts and coaches? I think that's a pretty big factor, especially for a lot of these upperclassmen who you see moving because, you know, if they want to play pro, it's really hard to have a sustainable WNBA career being a late round pick in the wnba. It's also hard being a first round pick. But, but certainly it is easier at least to play that first year out on your contract. And so you need to have a good college season and a good college career to do just that. So that is another factor I would add to this.
- [57:29]
Zena Keda
And you've got to have the visibility to be able to be seen having a good season.
- [57:33]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. And just to add on to both of those points, like, because the turnaround from the end of the college season to the WNBA draft is so short, like there's not a combine where players who are maybe at the mid major level can come up and sort of show how much skill they have or have an opportunity to get it in front of GMs and executives like it is your college game tape and that's it. Like there, there aren't other options. And so especially when we see these mid major players like Anissa Morrow is a great example going from DePaul to LSEU, she totally changes her draft value. Because, you know, doing something at DePaul is very different than doing it at LSU, doing it at the power conference level, being on a national stage and so putting that on film, it's the only way to get in front of of GMs when you're playing women's basketball.
- [58:18]
Zena Keda
Well, before we wrap this part up, any transfers, you're particularly excited to see where they land.
- [58:23]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think you threw out some of the big names that we're definitely tracking. I think what happens at Oregon State, and we should mention that Donovan Hunter, their point Guard, as we tape this, has thrown her name in the transfer portal.
- [58:34]
Chantelle Jennings
That's how it goes.
- [58:35]
Ben Pickman
I think what happens there is obviously super interesting.
- [58:39]
Chantelle Jennings
I think Talia Scott out of Arkansas. I am a noted Razorback person on this podcast that brings up notes on, on the Razorbacks. Um, but no, I think she's interesting to me simply because we're looking at a lot of players. You know, some of these seniors have that extra year of eligibility because of COVID So it's like you're looking at a player like Deja Kelly or Haley Van Lith, who are that one year stop gap maybe for your program, but someone like Talia Scott is a three year player that you can grow in your program and become like a foundational part of whatever you're building. If I'm Kim Caldwell right now, I'm looking at the portal and trying to find as many of these top freshmen and sophomores where it's like you're bringing players in who already have that experience and maybe just want to play elsewhere. And so it's interesting just to sort of see how, how different things are valued. Whereas USC obviously goes in and gets three players from the Ivy League one year stop gap sort of players as, as, as Lindsey Gottlieb builds this roster in a different way. And you know, moving forward, I think every coach has to factor in transfers both in and out of their program as they look at their rosters and how to build a program.
- [59:46]
Zena Keda
No, that makes sense. That makes sense. I'm definitely looking at Haley Van Lith mainly because of the storyline. You know, she was the star of her program at Louisville. Leaves goes to lsu, kind of becomes more of an afterthought player rather than a part of their main offense and their main defense and scheme and everything. And now thinking like, where are you going to go now? And you know, what do you hope to get out of that new position? Very interested about that. And I have to ask you guys, because you're in the mix and I, you know, I want to be in the mix, but I'm not really that in the mix. There was a tweet about a major, quote, major UConn player that will be entering the transfer portal. Have you heard Anything as of 12:18pm PT on Thursday, April 11?
- [60:30]
Chantelle Jennings
I have not.
- [60:30]
Zena Keda
Damn it. Okay. All right. Okay. That's hard.
- [60:34]
Chantelle Jennings
We'll see how well that ages.
- [60:36]
Zena Keda
We'll see how that ages. We'll see what happens. Ben.
- [60:39]
Ben Pickman
I would just say we have nothing to report on this show, but follow along@theathletic.com because we will write about it when it does happen.
- [60:47]
Zena Keda
Well, look at that. What a plug. What a plug. All right, well, before we get out of here, Just a reminder, WNBA Draft is on April 15th. On Monday, we're gonna have a special episode dedicated to analyzing all of it and breaking all of it down. There's tons of content already on the site right now that you can go and do some. Some homework on and be up to date. But, Ben, you're gonna be on the grounds, right?
- [61:13]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I will be there in Brooklyn on draft night at bam. Fans will be back in the building this year for the first time, and I want to say eight years. And as Xena mentioned, we'll have, you know, plenty of stuff on the site. Sabrina will be doing some draft grades. I'll be documenting the scene. We'll have a big story on Monday morning, kind of leading up to it. As you mentioned, Xena, we're also going to tape a preview podcast in more depth where we'll get into the draft and what we think is going to happen on Monday night. We'll then react to the draft and both written in audio form on Monday night so that you have that on Tuesday as well. So there's plenty of draft coverage coming. We turn the page very quickly here at the Athletic. Here in the women's basketball world, sometimes some would argue too quickly sometimes. But yeah, draft is coming up and we'll have plenty to discuss and get you set for that on next Monday.
- [62:07]
Zena Keda
Well, speaking of turning pages quickly, I gotta. I gotta close this out. We've been talking for an hour, folks. What the heck? I mean, it's women's basketball. We could talk forever about this. Thank you, Chantel. Thank you, Ben. Appreciate all of your insights. We covered so much ground today. And also thank you to everyone that was a part of our NCAA coverage this year. This is every player that joined coach, gm, director of basketball operations, media person that set up interviews for us. We are so grateful for the coverage that we been able to have and thank you all. For those of you listening, we build up a little bit of a family and I love getting texts from you guys that you're loving our content or, you know, the random text that said that you heard Ben and Chantel's voice in a restaurant and that you recognize them from the pod. That is amazing. But no, seriously, thank you all for listening in. Hit that subscribe button if you haven't yet. Leave us comments. Definitely want you guys to be a part of the conversation. Conversation. And we're about to pivot real fast. WNBA season, international ball and the Olympics this summer, folks. So for Ben, for Chantel, I'm Zena Kada, thanking you for your ear and encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game. Because one, we have more records to break, but two, it's the only way we're going to keep growing. All right, y'all, until next time.
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Zena Keda
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- [65:02]
Liquid IV Host
Hey guys, we have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
- [65:06]
Chantelle Jennings
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [65:10]
Liquid IV Host
We love getting to talk to experts. We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also love hearing from you.
- [65:16]
Chantelle Jennings
But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh.
- [65:20]
Liquid IV Host
A lot has changed in the last seven years and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older. We with us.
- [65:26]
Chantelle Jennings
So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen Holderness.
- [65:33]
Liquid IV Host
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all about aging together better and also being able to laugh about getting older.
- [65:40]
Chantelle Jennings
We hope you'll join us Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen Holderness. New episodes every Tuesday.
- [65:47]
Wayfair Host
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [65:53]
Chantelle Jennings
Acast.com.