← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Dallas Wings Preview + Paige Bueckers Spotlight
00:53:30
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- [00:00]
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- [05:01]
Zena Keda
Hello everyone and welcome to no off season presented by MassMutual. I'm Zena Caida.
- [05:06]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [05:07]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [05:09]
Zena Keda
And today on the show it's our big Dallas Wings preview pod. What will the transition to the WNBA be like for Paige Beckers and how will she fit in on the existing squad in Dallas? Not only that, but the Wings have a lot of fresh talent and coaches ready to hit the court and how will it all impact their season ahead? We're going to get into it and then Sabrina sits down with Wings GM Kurt Miller. All right guys, how you guys doing? You guys ready to go out to training camps? This week.
- [05:39]
Ben Pickman
It is hard to believe we are here. Dena. The WNB season really is just like three weeks away from beginning.
- [05:46]
Sabrina Merchant
That's very strange because I was just thinking that like, oh, I have some time to like kind of chill and then no, no, Sunday. Here we go.
- [05:52]
Zena Keda
Nope, nope, nope, nope. And that's what like I love about when Paige Beckers got drafted. Ben, you did a story about that experience. You mentioned how she said like it happened a lot faster than I thought. And you talked about the feeling of like Paige Becker's not being rushed on the court but feeling rushed on draft night. I feel like that is the truth for all the draftees but particularly all players in the WNBA feeling rushed to go right back into season, whether they're coming off of their overseas seasons, whether they're just getting drafted, whether they're coming off of unrivaled. Like it is coming fast. But particularly for the Dallas Wings and their very big draft class. So before we dive in with everything that Dallas is facing this season, I want to do a little history lesson. You know, I like a little historical context because that's important. And they were originally the Detroit Shock. A lot of people know that was a big time program. And then they became the Tulsa Shock. And I know I remember them kind of coming in into my realm with Skylar Dickens Smith being a part of the Tulsa Shock and Liz Cambidge was part of the Tulsa Shock. That was like when I first really got to know their team really well. And then they became the Dallas Wings in 2016. Since then they've been to the playoffs five times and they've only won three playoff games total in the last 15 years they've only had two winning seasons. This is despite having notable names like two of the ones I just mentioned. Skyler Diggin Smith, Liz Cambridge, also Natasha Howard has been through their program. Satu Sabley obviously recently leaving to go to Phoenix. Alicia Gray's when there was in their program, Kayla Thornton. Like these are WNBA All Stars and also some of them WNBA champions. Yet the stats are what they are and the program is where it is. So let's zoom out. How did the Wings get to this point?
- [07:51]
Ben Pickman
Ben, it's a good question and you kind of mapped it out. Xena, the Dallas Wings franchise is one of many, I guess across the wnba but has one of the highlights that has gone through a lot of change over the last 15 or 16 years. You mentioned it, they originated in Detroit as the Detroit Jock where they won three WNBA championships and after the 2009 season with attendance numbers dipping, they moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, as you said. And Bill Cameron was kind of the operating chairman who moved the team, took over the team and moved them from, from Detroit to Tulsa. And why that name is significant now is not only because he is still involved with the Dallas Wings, but he is also a part owner in the ownership group of the Oklahoma City Thunder, who as you then later, I guess, as basketball history would have it like, they moved from Seattle to Oklahoma. So you have kind of a time in which you have multiple Oklahoma based franchises. But a couple Years later, around 2016, the franchises moves from Tulsa to Dallas. And as that transition happens, the Dallas Wings bring in Greg Bibb. And Greg Bibb is an important figure in the Dallas Wings franchise's history. He is now the president and CEO of the franchise, but he has also been the general manager of the franchise for these past couple years. And so Greg Bibb kind of heading, I guess up until this year, this past offseason, has been one of the, I guess, the key basketball decision maker with this franchise. And so, you know, when we think about the transitions that the team is undergoing, you know, Greg is now, you know, very much still involved with the team and he's still very much connected to the business operations and kind of generally he's still the president CEO, as I said. But when they made their head coach change last fall, letting go of Latricia Trammell, Greg also said that they were going to hire a general manager. And that is what they did. And they brought in Kurt Miller. And so, you know, that is all kind of key context to this change. It's, you know, reshuffling at the very top of the basketball operation side. They've brought in more basketball ops kind of support. You know, Jasmine Thomas got promoted. Their assistant general manager, Travis Charles got a title promotion as well. And I said Kurt Miller. So there's like a lot that gets you to this point where they have the number one pick, where they have Paige Beckers coming in. Again, a franchise that has gone through a lot of transitions and is looking kind of for stability and to build a strong foundation as they begin this new era.
- [10:11]
Zena Keda
I feel as if this happens a lot on the WNBA side where people are playing multiple roles in executive functions and when you separate it and you delegate, sometimes better things happen. We're gonna see that across the league. I won't call out specific teams, but there's gonna be a lot more people being able to do their jobs and being able to focus on their particular job. And I Think this is gonna be great. That Kurt Miller, who has experience as a coach and an exec within the the wnba, very familiar with the landscape right now, now gets to be in a position where he can position particular players, particular coaches, et cetera, for success, hopefully for at least the Dallas Wings. So first big move, obviously number one draft pick Paige Beckers, and she's coming into a newly revamped roster, coaching staff, front office, as you laid out. And it's fair to say there is some excitement in the air. In her press conference, she was asked like, how does it feel to be the hottest thing in Dallas right now, especially with Luka Doncic being out. She's like, the weather might be a little bit hotter. It's definitely not the same as in Connecticut, which I appreciate it. She's so. She's so cool. Like that's such a great response. Anyways, it's fair to say it's a lot of excitement, but with Paige coming in, Sabrina, how do you think she's going to fit into this roster?
- [11:32]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, it's. It's a little hard to say because as you mentioned, there is a ton of roster turnover on this particular team. There are three returning players from last season and admittedly you go nine and 31, you don't need to bring the whole band back. Right. Something has probably gone wrong and you can stand to make some changes, but we don't have a ton of information about how these players work together. Right. So presumably you've got Paige Beckers playing alongside Arike Gumbawale, Dijonay Carrington, Ty Harris in the backcourt. How Chris Koklanis chooses to mix and match those, you know, alongside with the other rookie, Isaiah James, how like maybe J.J. quinnerly or you know, other training camp players like Kyla Charles fit into this is still up for discussion, but I think those four are probably going to be your. Your base back court. And I truthfully like Paige's combination with all of them. Right. Like Ty Harris, awesome shooter, kind of reminds me of a little Easy Fudd type, right. Some three and D Dijonay Carrington, someone who can probably take on more of the primary defensive matchups at point guard, allowing Paige to really focus on the offensive end, play a more helper role on defense, which is where she really excels at UConn. You put her next to Enrique and then we get into real facilitator mode for Paige. Right. Because there's somebod can get buckets as well as anybody else in the wnba. So I think there are a lot of interesting combinations for how she can play off of those backcourt players, the frontcourt I think we mentioned on our last episode with the intriguing players. I have a few more questions about. There's still some hurdles to be cleared in terms of making those decisions, but I really like the way that she can play alongside all of these players that Dallas has either acquired or retained. In the case of Arike this off season in that backcourt rotation.
- [13:08]
Zena Keda
I love that. Thank you for breaking that down. I'm very curious, especially because not only do we not know a ton about what these players look like together, we don't know how Chris Calcanis is going to use them. Together, we don't know what he's, you know, good, good at in terms of creating offensively. Ben, when it comes to his role at USC and what he was known for and what he was appreciated for, how do you think he's going to be able to help Paige's game and her transition into the W?
- [13:31]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, Chris has long been a name to watch in the WNBA coaching ranks. A few years ago, when Sabrina and I did kind of a GM survey at the end of the 2023 season, he was one of the two names that we heard most often from executives when we were asked about, you know, coaches who had not yet been a head coach in the WNBA but would make a great hire for any franchise. And Kurt Miller, you know, they worked together at the Connecticut sun for a long time before Chris ended up taking the USC job. You know, Kurt would give Chris a lot of latitude to drop plays at the end of huddles. He became like the defensive coordinator in Connecticut as well. Like, he played a big role for the Connecticut sun during his tenure. And Sabrina knows this from being around usc. Like, he was super well liked and well regarded as a basketball mind and as a coach with the Trojans, too. And, you know, he kind of, he came on this podcast, I guess, a few months back once he was hired, and he talked about like, that was also a really formative experience for him because he got the opportunity to learn from Lindsey Gottlieb, who is another really, really good basketball mind, has NBA experience, has a lot of collegiate experience, like, again, kind of allowed him to, I don't know, just like get different pieces of information from different coaches.
- [14:48]
Zena Keda
Yeah.
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Ben Pickman
One of the things that I've been thinking about, though, as they are kind of having Paige Becker's transition. And this goes back to one of the things, actually Greg Bibb told me on draft night was you know, as the number one pick, you control the board, obviously, right? You control the rest of the draft because you have that first selection. And that is especially beneficial in this WNBA context when there is a quick transition. Because in theory. And the Dallas Wings have said they've kind of settled on Paige Becker's a long, long time ago after winning the lottery. They have had months and months and months to prepare for how she is going to fit in and to think about it, right?
- [15:20]
Zena Keda
Yeah, that's right.
- [15:21]
Ben Pickman
You know, Chris Coclantis and his staff and Kurt Miller and his staff, they've been, you know, in theory, they could be running through film as much as they want, knowing that this was going to be the selection. Whereas if you're even taking, you know, a player fourth, fifth, sixth, whatever, you might only have three weeks, three and a half weeks to think about how that player is going to acclimate to the roster you already have. So when we think about transition, like that is another benefit. Not only are you getting a great player, but you have prepared, in theory, for months for this great player to be part of your roster.
- [15:52]
Zena Keda
There you go. And that's a really big factor to be able to already be thinking about how Paige and Arike can kill it in the backcourt. I've been thinking about it since December. I know a lot of people have been, and I'm sure Dallas has been, or particularly Dallas has experienced a major basketball loss recently. Of course, with Luka Doncic going to the Los Angeles Lakers or being traded, I should not say that he went on his own. He was traded to Los Angeles Lakers. So there is a Lucas sized hole in Dallas basketball right now. And so Serena, vibe check, like, how's Dallas feeling? How is Paige's presence kind of remaking Dallas basketball?
- [16:31]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I was actually pleasantly surprised. A lot of my friends who are big Mavericks fans were aware of Paige getting drafted. Like, who I didn't know really had women's basketball on their radar. And one of my buddies just had a baby girl last month and we've already got a little Becker's onesie for her. So, you know, good things happening for some of my personal Dallas fans at least. But, you know, I think Ben has talked about this at length, just how Dallas is prepared from a business perspective, you know, to capitalize on this addition of pagebackers. And they made an announcement just the other day that their broadcast has expanded to the point where they're gonna be reaching like 6.3 million households in markets around Dallas to be able to air their games locally, which is just a massive footprint. When you have a star of Paige Becker's quality, right. Who can theoretically demand some attention. If you play attractive basketball, people are gonna wanna watch. And now they can watch, right? That's always been an issue with WNBA is if the product is available. And so they're making it more available, which is fantastic. I really like what Ben said about just being able to prepare since November for this. They were able to go through free agenc. These are the players we want to play next to Paige. And it's not so much like that they have the time to think about it. It's. They could literally build their roster that way, right. Like, you know, if you're, let's say Golden State, right. Like you couldn't build your roster around who was going to be available at number five because you just simply didn't know. So I think it's just a lot of preparation has gone to this point, right. And they are. They've had. Even though there's a lot of turnover, I think that there is a lot of intention at least into how we can build her on Paige, how we can make sure that she is seen that like her jersey was available for purchase on draft night in the Dallas Wings watch party. Everything is being made accessible. And like you can do that when you know that you have a product that is going to move. Right?
- [18:13]
Zena Keda
Yeah. I thought it was so cool. There was a tweet literally the next morning of the WNBA draft. Somebody, some guy was in the gym with the Paige Becker's jersey on. Someone was like, how the hell this got to be counterfeit? Like, how the heck did you get this jersey already? It literally happened last night. It's crazy. I love that there's this energy. But the biggest thing I think everyone's kind of like on the edge of their seat about is how is she going to be received in the ecosystem of the wnba. Will you remember what the transition was like for big stars like Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese into wnba? It was a lot. A lot of good, a lot of bad, lots of conversations. Overall, what do you think Paige's transition to the WNBA is going to be like in the ecosphere? Ben, I'll start with you again.
- [19:06]
Ben Pickman
I think this goes back to Dallas having a lot of time to prepare. And this was actually a question that someone asked Kurt Miller about a couple weeks back when he was One of the GMs on this call where we were kind of. He was reflecting on what they might have learned from Caitlin Clark's experience as a high profile guard entering the wnba. And he said that they learned a lot and, you know, he was unspecific about some things and specific about others. But some of the specific things that you did mention was like, even from a security standpoint and like fan engagement standpoint, like, that is a takeaway that they can apply to ensuring the safety and protection of their players both physically and on, you know, digital on and on the Internet as well as she transitions to the professional ranks. Like, I think, again, I think it's fair to say that she's gonna have some kind of transition, you know, to the pro ranks like you would expect any player like we were talking about last year for those high profile rookies, right. Just because she's going from the college level to the pro level in a very short period of time without giving her body a ton of time to rest, recover and adapt. But again, I think this goes back to the wing spending a lot of time to prepare for this to happen. And that is especially important because when you consider. And Sabrina touched on this a little bit when she talked about the fit, like the Dallas Wings point guard position has been a rotating cast of, of players over the last couple years. Like, I really have been stuck with. You mentioned that 2023 season. That was their most successful year in recent memory. You know, Odyssey Sims did not start a single game for them during the regular season and started the final two games for them in the playoffs. Right. Like Crystal Dangerfield had been their starting point guard for most of the year. She did not play a lot at the end of the postseason because of how the Las Vegas Aces were guarding her. Veronica Burton's role, you know, change throughout her tenure with the Dallas Wings, like, this is a spot that they've long wanted, tried to fill via draft and free agency. And now they have finally, you know, put someone there who they hope will be there for a very long time and they can prepare for that hole to be filled. So, you know, are the Dallas Wings suddenly going to win 30 games this year? Like, I don't really think so, but if you listen to any of the people in their front office talk about this season, the word they use more than anything else is foundational. Right. They hope for this to be a foundational year and that's, you know, a little different than transitional year. But I think it bakes in this acknowledgment that there's a lot of new with this franchise. So, you know, I think there will be some growing pains, but I think they are prepared and acknowledge that that is going to happen as well.
- [21:46]
Zena Keda
Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean, it's one thing to get someone prepared from a basketball perspective and have them in the conversation and from a press and PR perspective from the Dallas Wings, but there's also one thing, Sybrina, to have the world kind of ready for her as a star, as a foundational star, as Ben said. And this is the thing is, I think that the wnba, not necessarily the organization, but the league overall, was not prepared for last year with Caitlin and Angel, with just how much the conversation grew and how big the discourse was. Do you think that they're more prepared this year for Paige to enter the space and potentially take over as a star?
- [22:29]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, part of it is I think that Dallas Wings are already on national TV a lot, which is a good thing, you know, to highlight Paige as much as possible. I think the experience of having gone through what they did with Caitlin and Angel and, you know, Kathy Engelbert talked about this at the draft. A lot of the social media considerations they have about just monitoring what the players have to see online and, like, trying to monitor that behavior all goes into play when you're trying to protect someone like Paige, but also market her to as wide of an audience as possible. You know, I think part of it is just, like, because we've already gone through the Caitlyn and Angel part of it that there's going to be less of, oh, do the players hate her? Like, you know, is everyone out to get Paige? Like, I don't think we're just going to see that same sort of bully narrative. Like, the older players don't like the younger players as we did, just because it's kind of worn out now. And, like, I don't think it's gonna, you know, have the same sort of resonance. But, you know, I think something about Paige just feels a lot more familiar to me than, like, the Caitlyn angel experience. Cause, like, she does come from UConn, right? Like, there's a long history of these players who have come, like, through the Huskies pipeline, and maybe that's a little reductive, but I don't know. Like, it. It seems like we've kind of gone through a page experience before, and obviously I'm not diminishing her talent and saying that she's not gonna be special in her own right, but it does feel like something that the league is more prepared to adjust to than the massive rivalry that Caitlin and Angel brought in last year.
- [23:53]
Zena Keda
It's true. I think that rivalry kind of caught people by surprise. And there has been this kind of lead up to Paige. I mean we've seen her at the ESPYs accepting awards, right. We've seen her the saga of Paige already. And so that's why I felt like her winning the national championship and now being drafted felt like a culmination to her college career. And now the Paige is turning for her WNBA career. So Paige Beckers is obviously not the only new face in Dallas this year. We've talked a little bit at length of just all the new faces that are joining her from her draft class and also the off season acquisitions. We'll see what happens if those draftees also make it out of training camp. But this is Isaiah James. We're talking about Madison Scott, J.J. quinnerle and Aaron at Von Lay, but also repping Dallas. We mentioned some of their names. Dijonay Carrington, Ty Harris, Nelissa Smith and Maisha Hines Allen. We also mentioned they got a new coach and a new gm. And you're gonna hear more from that GM with Kurt Miller. Sabrina's got a conversation right after this break later in the episode. But these are a lot of changes and it's going to influence the trajectory of the season for Dallas this year. But Ben, we got a little bit of insight from Sabrina earlier about how Paige can fit alongside these folks. But let's take a step back and just look whole picture at this team. What do you think? What do you think the impacts of these additions are going to have on Dallas season this year?
- [25:25]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, again they're just trying to change the culture with this franchise. And Chris Koklanis said at the end of his press conference, his introductory press conference with I guess Paige Beckers, I guess it's the rookies introductory press conference rather Xena, that success would be at the end of the season. How many players said they had a really positive experience in Dallas and wanted to return for future years? And we know the kind of general context of this year is that pretty much every veteran around the league is a free agent. And so some of those players that you mentioned will have the opportunity to sign elsewhere as soon as next January. So. So again, like this is all about fit. It's all about trying to be, you know, level up as an organization. Sabrina mentioned some of the business transitions and business changes. Like this is a Dallas Wings franchise that is set to move to a new arena in downtown Dallas from Arlington where they currently play at the start of next year. They'll have a new practice facility at that time, like they're trying to invest more in player experience as a result. I said, you know, they've staffed up in terms of assistant general managers, and Greg Bibb has really touted the. The brain trust and experience of that group. Like, this is a team that wants to invest and wants to establish itself as a perennial power in the wnba. And, you know, they should be probably looking to the Indiana Fever as a little bit of a roadmap here, where a few years ago, you know, you would survey players around the league, and the Indiana Fever were one of the franchises that were routinely the lowest graded in terms of player experience or that players least wanted to play for. And now that clearly has changed after a busy off season. Again, the Fever are affiliated with an NBA franchise, so it's not exactly an A to a comparison, but Dallas is certainly hoping to replicate it, no matter how well they do this year.
- [27:15]
Zena Keda
It's a really great point. It's not just the impact on the court in terms of potentially, you know, garnering more wins for Dallas, but specifically thinking about the CBA being in play and that a lot of these players, almost like 90% of the league are going to be, or maybe more are going to be free agents next year. You want to create a space in which people want to land because that is important. Of course the rookies will be there, but you want to make sure that other folks want to sign with this program. Now, Sabrina, we've talked pretty much at length about Paige making an impact, obviously, but what are some of the new players that are poised to make an a big difference for Dallas? And which player do you think will have the greatest difference on Dallas's trajectory?
- [27:59]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I like that. They've sort of brought people in with some local flavor. You know, Dijonay Carrington and Melissa Smith both played at Baylor. Ty Harris has played with the Wings before. Erinnit Vonle, one of their draftees, is another Baylor draftee. So, you know, when it comes to trying to retain people, it helps if they have a little bit of an attachment to the place already, you know. But I keep coming back to Ty Harris. You know, when I first saw her name included in the Alyssa Thomas trade to Phoenix, it was just like, I understand Alyssa Thomas wants that, but why are they getting her to Ty Harris? She's like the kind of player that any team could benefit from because she just does so many things well on a basketball court. And I think her value as a complimentary player, when you have stars like Arike, what they hope Paige is going to turn into somebody who doesn't need the ball in her hands but shoots really well from the floor, you know, can cover her assignment. Defensively. I think she's just going to be like this skeleton key that you can plug into so many different lineups, whether that's like at the 1, 2 or the 3, that I think that was just a tremendous addition for Dallas to be able to get her in this whole four team trade, you know, that sends superstars across the country. And I'm really interested to see how she does in her second stint in Dallas because the first one, like, you know, everyone's a little rough their first couple seasons in the league, but I think everyone understands her value as a role player in the WNBA now.
- [29:11]
Zena Keda
Yeah. You know, I might put her as an honorable mention for most intriguing player for the episode that we just recently did. I think she's going to be. And she has been in every place she's been or been brought to. At least for Connecticut. It was kind of like she can be a factor of elevating your offense and elevating your defense and also just elevating the length of your bench. And that's huge and really important. Ben, what were you going to say?
- [29:33]
Ben Pickman
I was going to say, I mean, you talk about defense like this is a franchise that has not been in the top half of defensive ratings since they moved to Dallas. So I would say we've talked a lot about the offensive end and how Paige Beckers will fit offensively. But. But I think a lot of Dallas's success will be on the defensive end and Dijonay Carrington obviously helps with that. And certainly Paige Beckers size and versatility also does too. So for as great as the offensive highlights might be, I think how successful Dallas is might depend on how successful their defense is in 2025.
- [30:08]
Zena Keda
I'm trying to see seatbelt clicks. Dijonay, I want some seatbelt clicks. Okay. Buckle up. No, you're absolutely right. Both Sabrina and I had visceral reactions when you said that they had not been in the half of the defense in. Since 2015, 2016. Wow, that is. That's tough, right? Dijonay landed in the perfect spot. She could definitely bring that, at least for the next season. You mentioned earlier about Chris Kahanis and particularly how he can help Paige Beckers in transitioning to the WNBA and having had the time to watch film. But you know, in Connecticut he was known for being a defense coach when he was in the WNBA at usc. You know, he had a really, he was a players coach. Players loved him. Like, that was like the sense that you got. And now he's got the opportunity now to be a head coach. And we all know that that's very different. It's one thing to be behind the scenes behind your coach and be able to have that relationship with coach, with players, but now you're the head coach, you got delegate a little bit and you focus on certain things. What do you guys think Chris Kahnis is like his coaching philosophy, his style will be, and how will that work with the roster that they've got?
- [31:15]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, it's hard to say, right. We haven't really seen him in this position. When we talked to him in January, I think, Ben, correct me if I'm wrong, his only head coaching experience had been an AAU team in New Jersey. So not a lot of tape on the Crisco Glass.
- [31:28]
Kurt Miller
Westchester.
- [31:29]
Ben Pickman
Sabrina. Westchester, not Westchester.
- [31:30]
Sabrina Merchant
I apologize.
- [31:31]
Zena Keda
Yeah, represent. No, I'm joking.
- [31:35]
Sabrina Merchant
So it's a bit of an unknown. And I think, you know, we have to be too careful to just assign too much of his philosophy to what Kurt Miller has done over his coaching career. Because, you know, as Chris said, like, for so long in his life it's been curtain. Chris Curtin, Chris. And like that's part of why he went to usc, to sort of separate from that duo. But I think, you know, just knowing the kind of relationships that he has with players, I think about the rest of his coaching staff, like Nola Henry, who's coming off of an unrivaled championship, right where she did a phenomenal job with that Rose Basketball Club in Miami. They're just so good at empowering players to do what they do best. And I think you look at this roster and there's a lot of diverse skill sets. I mean, we haven't really talked much about, like, what Melissa Smith can do after sort of an off year in Indiana, and Maisha Hines Allen empowered in a bigger role theoretically here in Dallas. I don't think it's going to be him applying a system so much as realizing like, this is the talent that we have and we need to figure out a way to maximize everything that goes about it. Because frankly, like you think about Dallas, you think about two posts like throwing the ball inside, really post heavy. And frankly, that's how a lot of Kurt Miller teams have functioned in the past. And I think there's probably going to be a necessary step away from that, both for Chris's sake to differentiate himself and for Dallas sake, you know, to Sort of chart a new path forward.
- [32:43]
Zena Keda
Yeah, pound the ball inside, offensive rebound, when I think offensive, like a lot of O boards. This is, this is going to be fun. It's going to be great for all the teams across the the league that have all these new coaching staffs. But it is particularly fun when you have a new rookie in the mix. You've got a really talented vet that's already there and established and then you bring in all these other vets that have, as you mentioned, Sabrina, diverse skill sets and the person behind all of this, GM Kurt Miller. Ben, before we get to Sabrina's conversation, you know, later on the episode, but like, what are your thoughts on Kurt Miller and how he's shaping this team particularly this year while they still have these players before the CBA and free agency starts next year?
- [33:27]
Ben Pickman
I mean he certainly was very excited to have the number one pick and that is the kind of thing that he recognized back when they won the lottery was a transformational moment for the franchise. And you know, I think he has continued to be very excited for Paige Beckers and the rest of this draft class. It certainly is the kind of thing that any first year GM going to a new team would want. So look that that is an unbelievable starting point for them. And then as you mentioned it, he makes his hire of Chris Koklanis. And the last thing I would say there adding on everything we've already said is like Chris has been in the WNBA, I want to say since 2016. He hasn't been a head coach since like that time obviously. But if you look at coaches who have like longest tenured coaches and I get that he spent a year at usc. Like you know, it's Sandy Brandello has been in the league since then and Cheryl Reeve has been in the league since then. And you know, there are some players who are some coaches who were players then, you know, Noel Quinn, someone like Becky Hammond obviously is playing experience. But like, like few people understand the transition of the WNBA from that moment in time to this moment in time who are currently head coaches like Chris Coclanta. So yeah, he's moving over a seat, but he certainly is experience. And Sabrina talked about it like, you know, him and Kurt both have built a lot of relationships with players over the years, a lot of relationships with agents, with other executives and that certainly positions Dallas well going forward, Sabrina, I'll.
- [34:56]
Zena Keda
Shift it away from, you know, what Ben has already mentioned in terms of the investment they've put in to ensuring that the Dallas players get the materials and resources that they need. But thinking particularly about what the players can bring to this team, Paige is the first person that comes to mind. I could not watch a tournament without seeing her face in a commercial. Don't worry, I didn't mind it. But there was always something going on. When it came down to Paige's celebrity and the investment and the money and the potential partnership that she could bring. What do you think is going to be stirred up in Dallas for this upcoming season in terms of the power of name that they have on their roster now?
- [35:34]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I would imagine their jersey patch deal probably gets a little bit more lucrative moving forward. Right. If you can put that company on a jersey that says Becker's on it, that probably sells for a lot more than what it was last year. But Ben has already alluded to this. The practice facility coming, the downtown arena. They've moved one of their games to the American Airlines center, which is where the Mavericks play already. During this upcoming season, the Mavericks have some tangential partnership with the Wings. I don't want to mischaracterize it, but like more opportunities to move to a bigger venue to play games seems like a good idea when you have a player as popular as Paige is going to be, presumably this season. And then just like the investment in the front office. Right. Like, it's still mind boggling to me that we are probably three years removed from most teams in the WNBA having like one person running basketball operations and literally maybe a couple interns around. And now the front offices are just like you think about when we were traveling for the WNBA Finals and how many people in Liberty gear were there there in Minnesota? Like just dozens of people related to the staff. And that's what we're seeing in Dallas. Right. Like you mentioned delegation in the front office. All of these separation of roles, empowering people to do specific jobs rather than jack of all trades situation. We're seeing that on the performance staff too. It's just everything that you would expect a professional franchise to look like. Right. Paige has sort of catalyzed that to happen for Dallas as well.
- [36:49]
Ben Pickman
Sabrina mentioned the jersey partnerships and I would just say, you know, last year and I talked to Bib about this last fall, like they had more partnerships last year, set merchandise records and added more partners and partners who weren't just local, but national and international brands. And you have to imagine with someone who already has this high profile as Paige Becker's, that's only set to continue. You know, the Wings have sold out their season tickets for the past two seasons. This Year they did so well in advance of what they did last year.
- [37:19]
Sabrina Merchant
It was the lottery, right?
- [37:21]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, exactly. Within days of winning the lottery, they sold out their tickets. Their total ticket revenue grew more than 40% from 2023 to 2024. They're projecting more than a 50 increase in total ticket revenue this season. You know, last year, again on the ticketing front, like they had to change. They re budgeted their ticket revenue three times as a reflection of the exploding interest. Like, like I got to imagine those projections, those numbers have gone up even more this year with some of the things I've just said. Like they're anticipating a sellout for that game on June 27th. That's a game against the Indiana Fever. We'll be at American Airlines center where the Dallas Mavericks play. Like, again, there is a lot pointing in the, the positive direction here and we should say that around the league, last summer, the Dallas wings, they sold 2/2% ownership stakes at a record $208 million valuation. That's a high point around the WNBA. So I got to imagine the franchise is even more valuable a year later, not only with, you know, a new WMBA TV rights deal come into effect. You know, again, more partnerships getting involved, but also a new franchise centerpiece who is as marketable and well known and well regarded as Pagebackers.
- [38:32]
Zena Keda
Well, you know what's really marketable? Winning. And that's what Dallas needs to do. And as much as we could talk about the money and the patches and all the other things, they gotta win. The Dallas Wings have to change the course of their franchise by changing what's happening out on the court. So I gotta ask, what kind of season are we looking at for the Wings? Got big names coming in, but what does that mean for the Wings in terms of being potential playoff contenders? Sabrina, let me know what you thinking.
- [39:05]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I mean, this is not super specific, but I sort of have six teams in the running for the final four playoff spots. I think there's like a top tier of four teams, then the next six and then a bottom three. And I would put Dallas in that six, you know, so I think making the playoffs would constitute a successful season. In addition to all the metrics that Chris, you know, outlined about people wanting.
- [39:26]
Zena Keda
To resign in Dallas now before Dallas's size was an advantage and of course being able to have scorers like Satu and Arike were advantages. What are some advantages you think that they have that would even put them in that six that you got him in?
- [39:40]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I think a lot of it is just the backcourt that we were talking about before. I think, you know, there's a reason Chris has been so highly regarded as a head coach. I think he's going to do a really good job of just designing a system that works with the players they have. Again, Like I realized, Caitlin was sort of an anomaly in how quickly she assimilated to the WNBA game. But I think Paige never had the same volume of stats in college that Caitlin did. And I don't imagine she's going to have the same volume of stats in the wnba, but she will be as efficient. And I think just that level of talent is such an incredible infusion to bring into this roster. Having to guard Paige and Enrique just sounds freaking disastrous. It really does not seem like a lot of fun and I don't know that a lot of teams have the perimeter personnel to take care of that. So I think just that backcourt is so powerful. I really like their head coaching change and I think there's just a lot of good energy around the wings, which hasn't really been the case in recent years. And I think positive energy matters a lot in these situations.
- [40:31]
Zena Keda
Okay, well, stick around. Up next is Sabrina's conversation with Dallas Wings GM Kurt Miller.
- [40:43]
Sabrina Merchant
Welcome back to no off season. I am now joined by the general manager of Dallas Wings, Kurt Miller. Kurt, thank you so much for being here.
- [40:50]
Kurt Miller
Great to be with you, Sabrina.
- [40:52]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. Just to give our listeners a little bit of background on you, Kurt, you are starting your 11th year in the WNBA two time WMA coach of the Year Executive of the year back in 2017 and now entering your first season solely as a general manager. We're actually talking to you the day after you were able to introduce your five draftees at Dallas City Hall. Seemed like a fantastic environment. And my only regret is that you were not wearing a Stetson with the rest of your rookies.
- [41:20]
Kurt Miller
I'm still waiting for my Stetson. They got one before I did. But he was a tremendous culmination of our draft class with all five of them arriving and obviously the official welcome to Dallas and with the city manager and the mayor was a really special environment and a special day for us.
- [41:43]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I look forward to the day when you do get your hat and Chris and you know, we can turn California Palm tree career into Dallas, Texas. Kurt Miller, right?
- [41:51]
Kurt Miller
Yes.
- [41:52]
Sabrina Merchant
So, speaking of the draft, you just completed your first draft as general manager and I know you've been through this process of the draft many times, but was there anything different about this process? Going through it as The GM and not as the head coach.
- [42:05]
Kurt Miller
The collaboration which is so important to me was tremendous. And going through it this time with true assistant GM's Brandy Pool kind of acted as my assistant GM for all those years in Connecticut when she was there and, and the other coaches really helped me. But having a battery of Travis Charles and Jasmine Thomas along with Chris as the representation of the coaching staff, there was just a real battery and a lot of collaboration. So that first and foremost was different. But then obviously when I was the dual hat, you know, I got to make the final decision. And as the coach also was always picking, you know, who I desired. So there was a lot of conversation. Chris and I, who were co workers for a long time and, and view the game the same way. We are wired different and what our eye catches or maybe what Chris is looking for as part of his roster construction. So it was about him and how I could help get ingredients that he would love to work with and what kind of players. So there was constant conversation of Chris. This is really, really important to hear. Strong opinions. And that was a part of our process consistently throughout the. The entire collegiate basketball season.
- [43:27]
Sabrina Merchant
You had mentioned the story yesterday of how, you know, you guys had mocked Isaiah James like several times and never really got her to number 12, despite how many times you tried. But just thinking back to that draft day, like, were there any other stories from the war room that really are gonna stand out to you or stick in your memory for a long time?
- [43:44]
Kurt Miller
Yeah, you know, all of my years, a decade plus now in the league, I have not been involved with the number one pick. And so even though it felt like Christmas morning and we knew what we were doing at one, you know, until that really happened and you were on the clock first and, and you got to submit Paige's name as the number one pick. That was really special and something that I'll always remember. And I'll always remember the draft lottery night. You know, like things, like, things started off really shaky that day because my flight was canceled in, in la. I was stuck in LA for the draft. I had been packing up and so I didn't even have a tv. So I was like frantic on where I was going to go watch the draft. And as it played out, my assistant coach or former assistant coach scoop me up at the airport, take me back to his office. I didn't even know he was filming me. So that, you know, like everything that culminated in that, you know, to the point of the number one pick when we actually got to do it, because we knew on that night when we won the draft lottery what that really was going to look like, you know, months from then, but really, really special. But other stories in the draft room, you know, always on pins and needles and the mock drafts that we, you know, did as a staff over and over and, and you know, I'm a person that reads other people's mock drafts. And one of the things that I kept noticing was Isaiah James was starting to disappear from the first round and a lot of mock drafts of people that I respect around the game of basketball. And so I reached out to her agent. I'm like, is there, you know, is there a feeling that she's slipping in this draft? And they didn't think so. They didn't. They didn't also think that she would get to 12. So when it happened, it was a huge piece of the story that add another player who can really go get a basket, you know, and now someone that we could bring off the bench, you know, to spark us with that second unit is something really exciting and a piece that we were really coveting and we're fortunate that to land and then in draft night. I will tell you, as a gm, I had, I had more draft day calls in the midst of the draft than I ever have as a gm. We were, we were seconds away from saying yes to a trade that would have moved the 14th pick for us. And we elected at the last second to, as the draft was playing out to keep picks and, and not make trades. But we had no less than three people, three other GMs and teams trying to acquire the 14th pick. And I think it, it shares the depth of the, the draft and, and, and in how I've always said we look back at the 21 draft IND Carrington, and if you redrafted that class, maybe she's the number one pick. I think you're going to look at second, maybe even third round picks in this team that maybe carve out an opening day roster spot for themselves. And when we look back at this draft in four years, are there some people that are drafted outside of the first round who really have made a mark for themselves in this, in this draft class? And I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.
- [47:06]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, you kind of alluded to the battery of people that you had in Dallas all working on this draft process together. And I'm wondering like, is it, it may be part of the reason that there were more calls, like in addition to the depth of the draft class, that there are just More people in the room who are, like, capable of fielding these calls at any moment.
- [47:22]
Kurt Miller
Yeah, no, not that way. You should have seen me. I was getting my steps in, Sabrina. I was running in and out of the draft room into private areas where I could have some very serious conversations with GMs around the league. But I think it speaks in general to our league, this sophistication that goes into the draft. The more in depth draft processes around the league is certainly. You can feel it, you can see it. There's more GMs. You know, it was a dual hat for a long time. Now there's not only a head gm. Most staffs around the league have an assistant gm. And like us in Dallas, we're not the only team with two assistant GMs in the league. So it's just getting more sophisticated.
- [48:06]
Sabrina Merchant
So you. You obviously get the opportunity to draft Paige Becker as number one. Your Christmas morning, probably even better than Christmas, because you know exactly what's in the box, you know, when you open it. But you spent a lot of time in Connecticut, and I'm wondering, like, do you remember the first time, I don't know if you were connected to the UConn program at all. You were able to watch her in practice or even play. And you know what sticks out from that?
- [48:24]
Kurt Miller
The fact that she impacts winning. You know, there's games. I went to seven games in person this year of Connecticut and countless others you watch on tv. And she just impacts Winnie. She's a generational talent, but, you know, at some moments in the game, she needs to score, and other games, she's a facilitator, and she gets everybody involved and she doesn't force. You know, it just. It's fun to watch her consistently through the years and watch her in games, and it's one game to another, another. She can impact games in so many different ways from one night to another, and I think that's what makes her special. Bottom line, she impacts winning.
- [49:06]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. Gino has joked with us both on this podcast, and who knows, maybe he's being serious that one of the great things about Paige is that you think you know a bunch of things about basketball, and she'll tell you everything that you don't know about basketball. But I'm wondering, just in your conversations with ginormous Chris Daly, like, what were you able to sort of glean about Paige beyond just the basketball court?
- [49:23]
Kurt Miller
Yeah, I think the thing that Gino shares, and he will share it in press conferences, is that you've got to live with her. Because she's so intelligent, you're going to live with some of the gambling that she does, you know, like in, you know, he shared some stories that instead of locking and trailing or, you know, attaching and chasing a great player off of a screen, she shoots a gap to go make a momentum changing steal in a game. And, you know, sometimes it doesn't always work out and you as a coach have to live with it because you know that she understands that she was calculating and what she was doing and she was thinking. So, you know, his advice, you know, for me to pass along to Chris is you're going to have to deal with some of the gambling that, you know, she may break the game plan, but most of the time she's making a good decision. Chris and I both had that experience with Alyssa Thomas, you know, an elite player that she just went and made some plays maybe that weren't part of the game plan and she just made, made winning plays when you needed it because she was such a student of the game and so smart. I get the same sense when talking to Gino that Paige is the same way.
- [50:31]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, you mentioned her impact on winning and it's, you know, she has a chance here to probably have an impact not dissimilar to what Caitlin Clark was able to do on the Indiana Fever last year. And I'm wondering just having been in the league and if you've had an opportunity to connect with the Fever brain trust at all, like, just what were you able to learn about bringing in a superstar type player, you know, who could really materially affect your franchise?
- [50:54]
Kurt Miller
Yeah, I think first and foremost, you know, Paige's journey and Paige's rookie season is her own. And Chris and his wonderful staff are going to put her in positions to be successful. But we also, there's going to be, you know, certainly a learning curve for her and the physicality and the speed of the game. The rule changes, the terminology. So there's going to be compassion and empathy as that learning curve happens. The one thing when you talk about last season, that Paige won't have the benefit that Caitlin did. And this is nothing against Caitlin, but we had an Olympic break last year and so you got to see some players get to take a month, deep breath. And those rookies that were coming off a grueling, you know, season in the collegiate game got a break, got to reset and finish strong. This draft class, which includes Paige, is not going to have that luxury. We don't have a big break where they can almost catch a second Wind and then push to the finish line on the second half of the season. So we have to watch this rookie class around the league about load management. It's just not our rookies. We're all going to be tuned in. The load management, we're all going to be tuned into as they get tired and worn down, especially these rookies that played long into their collegiate season.
- [52:17]
Sabrina Merchant
So one thing I've noticed in your past seasons in the W and even dating back to Bowling Green, Indiana, you've talked about how so much of your career has been defined by being part of builds. And it's a word that I feel like I've heard you say just several times over the course of our, you know, getting to know on each other. Kurt, it seems like this year with Dallas, the word of the year has been foundational. You know, like every time I hear you and Chris talk, it's about making sure that this is a foundational season for the Dallas Wings. I'm wondering, like, is there an intention behind that word? Like, what. What does foundational mean differently than, I guess, a build here?
- [52:51]
Kurt Miller
Yeah, you know, certainly, you know, you start with ownership, you appreciate everything that's been going on. And Greg Biff, Greg brings me in and I immediately flip a roster which he helped construct, and his support and his belief, never second guessing one time as. As that roster was flipped and we made big trades and we brought in new free agents and it was going to look different, you know, just the, the support that we have from the top, the synergy that Chris and I have from the GM bucket to the coaching bucket, there's coaches on his staff that coached under me. There's, you know, there's an assistant GM that played for Chris and I, you know, so with Jasmine Thomas, so. So there's just a lot of synergy. So first and foremost, we hope to, you know, kind of relay that onto our players and build culturally. First and foremost, Chris will build that from the locker room out. But the foundational year, when you hear Chris talk, you know, what's a successful season looks like? Well, we want to win, and we're. First and foremost, we want to win. But beyond the wins and losses, what we look at as foundational is are we playing the game the right way? You know, are the pillars that are really important to Chris that will come out more publicly? You know, are we. Are we checking those boxes? Are we establishing it? And as he mentions, at the end of the year when we get to exit interviews, did the players enjoy themselves and do many of the players want to be resigned and is the style of play, is the way Dallas is playing and the word of mouth amongst the players in this really, really sisterhood league. Is there momentum about Dallas and people wanting to join other players down here as we move into a state of the art practice facility in 26 and then, you know, a renovated arena and truly become Dallas's team? That foundation is so important that we create something that players want to be here. There's narratives out there early on that Dallas has lost some star players through the years. The narrative now and the momentum building really puts us on a trajectory to, you know, change that and that players will want to come to Dallas. And if that's really the momentum that we create out of the foundational year, it's a big, big success.
- [55:16]
Sabrina Merchant
All right, I just have one last question for you. I'm curious if you've thought about where you're going to watch games from as a former head coach. What's going to be the most comfortable spot for you to experience this as a general manager and no longer a coach?
- [55:28]
Kurt Miller
You know, Sabrina, it's a really, really good question. And I thought long and hard about this because there's days where I want to be really close, and then there's days where it's like I have to be away from the officials. So, you know, like, I need. Like, I. Chris will not yell like I did, so I don't need to make things worse and continue to yell at officials. What I would love to do is I'd love to be across from our team and watch our bench and watch our coaches work. And so. But I'm gonna roam. You know, I appreciated some of my bosses through the years where they would roam back to the locker room. They would get so nervous and. And they would be waiting for me in the locker room or the coach's locker room or, you know, I've got a seat and the. And you will be surprised where and how far away I am from actually the court at home for a lot of my games. And then there's some games where I'll be, you know, more. More close, closer to the action. But there's been some intent. And I won't. I won't surprisingly be on, you know, the courtside chairs as much as you might think I would be.
- [56:37]
Sabrina Merchant
There's been a lot of intent in everything that's gone into Dallas so far this season, and I would assume nothing less for this particular decision. So I look forward to seeing how that turns out, you know, over the course of these 22 home games. And thanks so much for your time. Kurt.
- [56:48]
Kurt Miller
Thank you. Always great to visit with you.
- [56:50]
Zena Keda
Sabrina well, that is it for today. We will be back with our full WNBA preview of the Eastern and Western conferences next week, so get excited. If you're new here, hit that follow button wherever you're listening so you can stay up to date with us. And please come find us on YouTube. I promise you we look so much better on video. Leave a comment wherever you're listening, we read them. And if you'd be so kind, give us a rating. It allows people to hear my voice and their ears more often, so it also helps new people find my voice into their ears. So definitely give us that rating. And don't forget, as always, there's always more to read and watch over at our partner the Yahoo. Sports Hub. So check it out at sports.yahoo.com women-sports on behalf of the Athletic, I'm Zena Keda. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Perot. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Begala. Brenna Haupt is our video editor, Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is our director of audio operations.
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Sabrina Merchant
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
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Remember blowing into a video game cartridge.
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Or taping songs off the radio?
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Sabrina Merchant
How about Saturday morning cartoons?
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Sabrina Merchant
Did we just age ourselves?
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Yep.
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Are we old?
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Sabrina Merchant
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