Does the NBA hurt the WNBA’s profitability?

Summary

Podcast Summary: No Offseason – "Does the NBA Hurt the WNBA’s Profitability?"
Release Date: July 29, 2025

In this insightful episode of No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show, hosts Zena Keita, Chantel Jennings, Sabreena Merchant, and Ben Pickman delve deep into the intricate relationship between the NBA and the WNBA, exploring whether the NBA’s involvement impedes the WNBA’s profitability. Featuring special guest Mike Vorkanoff, the discussion covers recent WNBA events, ownership dynamics, collective bargaining agreements (CBA), revenue sharing complexities, and the social aspects influencing the league's growth.

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1. Recent WNBA Events and Team Performance

The episode kicks off with a lively discussion about the Los Angeles Sparks' impressive performance against the New York Liberty. Hosts recount the electrifying buzzer-beater by Rekia Jackson that secured a narrow victory for the Sparks.

• Chantel Jennings highlights the game's intensity, “Rekia Jackson hits a truly crazy wild trick shot almost to give the Sparks the edge over the Liberty 101-99 on their turf” ([04:00]).

• Ben Pickman commends the Sparks' offensive prowess, noting, “Kelsey Plum, Rekia Jackson, Derek Hamby, Azra Stevens, they were getting whatever they wanted on the offensive end” ([05:33]).

The conversation also touches on significant player injuries, particularly Brianna Stewart of the Liberty, who exited the game early with a lower leg injury. The hosts express concern over her recovery and the impact on the Liberty's chances in the postseason.

• Ben Pickman adds, “Stewie avoided significant injury. She is on the team's current road trip, but we will see how much time she misses” ([05:33]).

2. Expansion and Ownership Dynamics Between NBA and WNBA

Introducing Mike Vorkanoff, the discussion shifts to the symbiotic yet complex relationship between the NBA and the WNBA. The WNBA operates out of the NBA offices and shares ownership overlaps, which influences its operational dynamics.

• Mike Vorkanoff explains, “The WNBA operates out of the NBA offices in midtown Manhattan. They share some staff, they work together on projects” ([22:17]).

The hosts discuss the historical context of WNBA team ownership, highlighting the shift from NBA-owned franchises to more independent ownership groups like the Connecticut Sun.

• Ben Pickman remarks, “WNBA valuations have been pretty flat, but now there's money to be made with new media rights deals and sponsorships” ([28:58]).

3. Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) and Revenue Sharing Challenges

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the upcoming CBA negotiations and the intricate challenges surrounding revenue sharing between the WNBA and its investors.

• Chantel Jennings raises a critical question, “Labor compensation, like player salaries, typically negotiated through collective bargaining and doesn't depend on who owns equity in the league. How is revenue being defined here?” ([38:37]).

• Mike Vorkanoff responds, “The CBA will need to address what counts as revenue. For example, how do we handle revenue from NBA-owned arenas? This is a complex issue” ([40:53]).

The discussion underscores the difficulty in determining a fair revenue share, especially with preferred investors receiving dividends before any player payouts.

• Chantel Jennings elaborates, “When you're at the bottom of the waterfall, who gets how much? Is it just a few drips and drabs?” ([31:13]).

4. Social Aspects and Player Representation

The hosts and Vorkanoff explore the social dynamics within the WNBA, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and representation among players.

• Chantel Jennings introduces the “bubble wrap theory,” suggesting that the WNBA has historically protected players' personal lives to avoid backlash, but recent initiatives aim to showcase their true selves. “The WNBA has learned, especially after that week of this past All Star weekend, it might be time to take the bubble wrap off” ([51:07]).

• Ben Pickman adds to the conversation, “Authenticity belongs to the players. Letting them be themselves is crucial in building a genuine connection with fans” ([51:37]).

The episode highlights how initiatives like "No Space for Hate" and behind-the-scenes streams have begun to peel back the protective layers, allowing fans to see the players' personalities and fostering a deeper connection.

5. Conclusions and Future Outlook

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts reflect on the challenges and opportunities facing the WNBA. While the influx of investment and increasing media attention present significant growth potential, the league grapples with ensuring profitability and equitable revenue distribution.

• Chantel Jennings emphasizes the importance of the upcoming CBA in shaping the league’s future, “Player salaries and revenue shares need to be negotiated in a way that reflects the league's growth and the players' value” ([52:16]).

• Ben Pickman concludes with optimism, “The WNBA is on an upward trajectory, but addressing these financial and structural challenges is essential for sustainable growth” ([42:38]).

No Offseason effectively navigates the multifaceted issues surrounding the WNBA's profitability in the shadow of the NBA's dominance. The episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current state of women's basketball, the financial intricacies involved, and the social dynamics that are reshaping the league.

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Notable Quotes:

• “Rekia Jackson hits a truly crazy wild trick shot almost to give the Sparks the edge over the Liberty 101-99 on their turf.” – Chantel Jennings ([04:00])

• “Labor compensation, like player salaries, typically negotiated through collective bargaining and doesn't depend on who owns equity in the league. How is revenue being defined here?” – Chantel Jennings ([38:37])

• “The WNBA has learned, especially after that week of this past All Star weekend, it might be time to take the bubble wrap off.” – Chantel Jennings ([51:07])

• “Authenticity belongs to the players. Letting them be themselves is crucial in building a genuine connection with fans.” – Ben Pickman ([51:37])

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This episode of No Offseason offers a deep dive into the economic and social factors influencing the WNBA, making it an essential listen for fans and stakeholders eager to understand the league's path forward.

Transcript

[Ben Pickman]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Chantel Jennings]

Hello, everyone. And welcome to no off season. I'm Zena Kada.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Ben Pickman]

And I'm Ben Pickman.

[Chantel Jennings]

And today on the show, the gang is back together. We are all here. Mine is Chantel, who's a little busy. She's at home with her twins. But we are here and we're excited to talk about something that feels very present right now at the W. Its ties to the mnba, as many of you have colloquially called it, better known as just the NBA. So we've got a special guest that's going to be joining us here to break it all down. We're going to talk cba. We're going to talk expansion money and a lot more. I know many of you have had a lot of questions. We appreciate all the messages that you've reached out to ask. But before we get into all of that, Sabrina, it was my turn to come back and now it's yours. You've been around the world. I've been enjoying the content I love, particularly the Dubai pick with the sunglasses. It's like mandatory. I think that you have. How was your trip?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Yeah, the headscarves are necessary. You get out in the sand and like, that stuff just. It's thin. Gets right in your face. Yeah.

[Ben Pickman]

Yes.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

No, no. It was a very nice trip, as you said, across the world. I was in Dubai for about a week after All Star Good to, I guess, sort of get back in with the roots.

[Ben Pickman]

Right.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Americanized version of Pakistan, as I was telling Ben. But, yeah, good time, A lot of relaxation and just hanging out with some people that I like.

[Chantel Jennings]

So, yeah, there you go. Nice and refreshed for the second half of the season. And we are happy to have you back because it's been an eventful weekend in the association. So let's get started with the craziest ending. Ben and I in your absence, had done the show for last Friday and we did our set yout screen presented by BetMGM. And I had chosen the Los Angeles Sparks New York Liberty game. And my reasoning for that was the Sparks have been on a heater. They've been heating up since the closing of the first half of the season going into this half of the season. And I literally told Ben, I said, they don't even need to. They just need to be in the game. For me to say, okay, this is legitimate. This is a real heater. This isn't a fluke. This is real. Well, in the first true buzzer beater of the season, Rekia Jackson hits a truly crazy wild trick. Shot almost to give the Sparks the edge over the Liberty 10199 on their turf. I had just finished hearing the announcer in Barclays lose her voice trying to get Ellie hyped up. Okay. I mean, it was the long Ellie. Yeah. You guys know what I'm talking about. If you're watching on league pass, you have heard that announcer almost lose her voice. It wasn't enough, y'. All. It was not enough. Now, of course, this was a game where Liberty star Brianna Stewart exited the game in the first four minutes with a lower leg injury. So, Ben, you were there. You could hear that energy in the building. You could hear the thoughts that, you know, the Liberty were going to be able to close this out on their home court, bring us inside Barclays for all of this.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean, as you said, Xena, it was a pretty crazy game with a lot of swings to it. It started with Brianna Stewart, who left the game just about 3:30 into that game with a right leg injury, as we now know was kind of unclear. She was running back on defense in transition when she appeared to injure her leg. We now know, we're taping this on Monday afternoon, that the imaging that the team got back over the weekend says that Stewie avoided significant injury. She is on the team's current road trip, but we will see how much time she misses. She's not playing in their game against Dallas on Monday night and they play Minnesota on Wednesday, and we'll see how long she is out for. But this was a huge credit to the Sparks because they basically led the entirety of the game. New York led by four early on and LA led by 15 at the end of the first quarter. And while New York tied it a few times in the fourth quarter, like, credit to the Sparks and specifically the Sparks offense because Kelsey Plum, Rakia Jackson, you know, Derek Hamby, Azra Stevens, like, they were getting whatever they wanted on the offensive end. Now, we should say LA was giving up a ton of baskets on the defensive end of the floor, and we can talk more about that, too. But yeah, I mean, LA just is playing with a lot of pace, a lot of energy. Plum, Jackson, Hamby Stephens have been really, really good. They have the longest win streak in the league right now, up to five games. Very impressive from those LA Sparks. And you mentioned the trick shot. Like, people were stunned because it was this. Like, it was a flip shot, I guess is the best way to describe it. But there was a lot of debate even about how do you describe Rekia Jackson, who's Like not even really looking at the rim when she shoots this shot. And the crowd kind of went, had this like stunned silence to them because it came after some long delays and some timeouts. And then she hits this like miraculous buzzer beater and it's like, well, that's the game like. And people filed home on the Saturday night, we should say second night of a back to back for New York 2 cry. Got a lot of basketball over the weekend, but yeah, definitely a scene to, to witness in, in Barclays center this past weekend.

[Chantel Jennings]

Yeah. And I'm looking at Sabrina Unescu trying to make a, a claim for MVP in the way that she was playing, keeping her team in this. But yes, as you mentioned, it was the Sparks and their offense looked hot, it looked tactical, which is very different than the old, the version that we saw earlier this season that felt three point heavy, it felt isolation heavy this way, this new version, I think the Sparks that's clicking right now is very purposeful in where they want their baskets, whether it's close to the basket, whether it's coming off of screens, you know, being able to have unbelievable ball movement. Sabrina, I'm looking at the fact that Cameron Brink isn't even on this team yet and she is expected to come back soon, maybe even this week. Are you excited yet, La Shona?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Will the Sparks ever be good? Was a question I think posted on this podcast a few few months back. Five game win streak, pooh pooh. That at all. Four of those wins did come against Connecticut and Washington. So to cap that streak off with a win at Barclays against New York, I think is appropriate to legitimize, you know, what the Sparks have done in this recent stretch. Even without Stewie, you're still talking about former MVP Jonquil Jones Ringonesco on that court. Like it's not an easy place to win games. The offense really like has never been an issue to me for the Sparks, like this is a team that has ranked really well in offensive metrics throughout the season. They just can't stop turning the ball over. So for them to only have 12 turnovers against the Liberty, I think is really the takeaway in that particular win. But yeah, you know, like this is a team that has been very explicit about their goals to make the playoffs. They don't own their 2026 draft pick, so it doesn't behoove them to tank. And you gotta start winning the games that are in front of you like they were. They're on a five game win streak. Right. And this is A team that's still 11 and 14. So they were eight games below.500 to start this streak. Kind of the time to start making up ground. But yeah, as you said, Cameron Brink, about 13 months removed from her torn ACL, has been cleared to play. She's just getting back into, you know, game shape through practice and whatnot. She did speak to reporters, spoke to Ben when they were in New York. So I would imagine they were just waiting for her to come back home to make her return to the Sparks. And if it doesn't happen this week, I would be pretty surprised you mentioned it.

[Ben Pickman]

Sabrina, like the offense has been clicking and we will see how Brink kind of re acclimates to the team when she gets in the lineup because that front court has been really good this year. But so much of the Sparks success is going to be on the defensive end of the floor. Like Lynn Roberts said that she spent her All Star break not only resting, but diving into the numbers, the analytics. And basically, if you look at the Sparks kind of analytic dashboard, you'll see they're at the top half of the league, top four, frankly, in almost every offensive category, the offense has not been the problem. It's defensively, their bottom three in pretty much everything. And so they recently brought on Latricia Trammell as a special assistant on the coaching staff. LT is a former Dallas Wings head coach. She also previously worked at the Sparks and kind of was their defensive coordinator. Well regarded as one of the best defensive coaches in the wnba. And her role is to now quarterback the defense on the sideline. And so we will see the sparks are still 11th in defensive rating as we tape this. But you know, they're going to need to improve on that end of the floor and they know that if they want to make the playoff push that Sabrina is talking about.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

And that's why Cambrink coming back is such a big deal, because we're talking about one of the most impactful defensive players in the league last season as a rookie during her first 12 games. So, you know, it seems like it all works together, but basketball's not paid on paper, right?

[Chantel Jennings]

Between Latricia Trammell coming on and Cambrink, the paint protection is going to be crazy. It's going to be packed in the paint for sure. Okay. There were a couple other things that happened over the weekend. Number one, Golden State Valkyrie's first time All Star, Kayla Thornton had the first half of the season of a lifetime. Okay. Was leading her team in minutes, points, deals, every, I mean, almost every category, then goes into the All Star game, gets a double dou. I mean, she was having one of the most amazing seasons and then suffers a knee injury and is now out for the rest of the season. Uh, she's had surgery on that knee and she wasn't with the team for the first game in the second half of the season. And then did not travel on this recent road trip. So far, they lost pretty badly this weekend to the worst team in the W in Connecticut. This might be a little bit of a wake up call for the Valkyries. How they regroup without the their fearless leader will be very interesting to watch. And then number two, the Lynx suffered their first loss at home, falling to Atlanta. Now, I'm gonna tell you, Atlanta, you were this close. You were this close to messing it up, but they were able to pull it out. But man, Sabrina, since you were out of town, there isn't a true power rankings on the site this week. You know, Sabrina Scale took a break, but that doesn't mean we're gonna fully skip this here. So I wanna know off the cuff, given all that's happened in this last week, how are you balancing the scales of power right now in the W?

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Well, with the news that New York signed Emma Easerman, I think the Liberty are a pretty clear favorite to win the title, assuming Stewie is able to come back in good health before the start of the postseason. Just the way Jonquill Jones impacts that team, that front court now that you could play Jonquils, Stewie and Meesiman together, Pibich at the two. You know, one of those guards, like there's just so much versatility in that lineup. Yeah, the Liberty are like kind of terrifying with their fully healthy roster. Again, fully healthy is doing a lot of work here, but just watching how hard Minnesota had to work against Atlanta, admittedly it's bad matchup for them. You know, I think about how the Lynx struggled last year against Dallas, a bad Dallas team, just because of their immense size in the front court with Kalani Bryant and Tierra McCowan. And you see sort of a similar difficulty that the Dream present with their two center duo of Bree Jones and Brittney Griner. The Lynx, like, obviously they're a tremendous regular season team. I think they just don't have the same ceiling that the Liberty can hit. And that's something that stuck out again in the limited basketball I was able to watch this past week. But yeah, that's the number one thing that stood out.

[Chantel Jennings]

Yeah, no, I think the thing about the New York Liberty that is so scary is that I keep thinking there's a. Oh, I'm forgetting the term right now. I think it's called a dotomy. And this is where lizards and salamanders can, like, grow arms and tails after they lose them, particularly tails. I think it's called adotomy. Somebody can correct that.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Terrifying, but.

[Chantel Jennings]

I know, I know, but it's something I studied in high school that's randomly coming to mind. But that's how I think about New York all season long. Whether it was Jonquil Jones that was out, whether it was Leo Febich that was out, whether whatever it was, anyone that was out, they just grew another tail. Like, someone else would step into that role. Someone else would step up and be scary. And I feel like that's how I feel with Emma Meesiman coming in, even if Stewie's not feeling 100%. Take your time, Stewie. Come back when you're ready because you've got all of this other talent that's available. If anyone goes down, they fill the holes and fill the gaps really, really, really well. Ben, you've seen this up front and up close, and I think, you know, losing Jonquell for a while was a little scary. But she's back. She looks amazing. The footwork's there. She looks awesome. Her shot is still there. Like, everything's fine. And then you now have Brianna sorte go down. And I don't know about you, but I was like, I hope she's okay. For sure. Absolutely. My heart goes out to her, make sure that she's all good. But I'm like, New York probably doesn't feel any sort of fear with all of the talent they have on that squad. What did you pick up from when Brianna Stewart went down and then particularly with the fact that they've got Emma Musselman coming. Like, how does New York feel right now?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think they're panicking by any means. They recognize that this is still a long season, and as Sabrina said, they just need to kind of be healthy and clicking at the right time. We should say on Misa man, we still don't know when she's exactly coming. I actually talked with her Belgian teammate Julie Alaman over the weekend, and I was like, so how long did it take you to get your visas processed? And she was like, sometimes it's two, three, or four weeks. Like, there's just a variety in terms of what that time actually takes to process it. And we'll see, you know, Depending on how they try and expedite it. When Emma eventually shows up, it's obviously going to be in the month of August here. I mean, I think the big thing with the New York Liberty right now, it's, you know, you threw out some analogy to lizards and tail growing. I'm just going to throw in a classic cliche of absence makes the heart grow fonder. Like, you know, I think they're just kind of realizing that when people are not with them, how much value they actually bring. Like, that was one of the key takeaways from John Paul Jones being out. I think they really came to appreciate just what she means to that team on the court. And we shall see. Depending on how long Brianna Stewart misses going forward, and we should say, like, she has barely missed any games since she joined the New York Liberty back in 2023. I think it's just two or three games. Like, we'll see a little bit more about what her value is and especially on the defensive end of the floor, her versatility, what it means for the team if she's going to miss some time here and maybe they'll come to value her and what she brings a little bit more to ahead of the stretch run. I think that's the kind of wait and see for the New York Liberty right now.

[Chantel Jennings]

Okay. I mean, I still. Autonomy, by the way, is the correct way to say what I was trying to say. Autonomy.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Pretty close.

[Chantel Jennings]

Pretty close. Right? I said automy. But anyways, autonomy. And I do feel like, you know, New York will be just fine, but I like that the absent makes the heart grow fonder. I think that is true for any of these players that are experiencing, you know, the rest of their seasons being out or any type of time being gone. Especially with Kayla Thornton with the Golden State Valkyries.

[Ben Pickman]

Well, I was going to say with the Valkyries because I think we should just put a button on this. And it was something we talked about last week. Cena, like, the Valkyries won. They've lost six of eight games, six of their last eight. Some of that is predating Kayla Thornton. So let's not just make it seem like they're hitting a rut just because she went down with an injury. I do think, like, you know, the bottom part of the playoff standings continues to be the thing that I am watching for in the league because it feels like on a night to night basis, like we're seeing a lot of movement. We've talked about the LA Sparks rising up the standings, the Washington Mystics, like, you know, they're just five and five in their last 10. The Aces aren't exactly playing great despite a big win over Dallas over the weekend. We saw them make a starting lineup shuffle. We'll see how long that last. You mentioned the Golden State Valkyries and all that they're going through though they have the depth to maybe sustain it. Like there's still a lot of questions of, you know, what does the rotation look like? How do they adjust to Kayla Thornton, their highest usage player being out of the lineup? So that to me, I'm interested to see Sabrina's rankings and her analysis a week for now because I bet how everything is handicapped right now will look a lot different in 7 days time just because of how much movement we are seeing at the bottom half of the league. One other bullet, the Minnesota Links have lost a game at home this season.

[Chantel Jennings]

They.

[Ben Pickman]

Look, I know it doesn't count but like they lost a game that was of stakes and their home arena this year. Like I understand it, this is a personal gripe.

[Chantel Jennings]

Don't count it.

[Ben Pickman]

This is a personal gripe of mine. I'm well aware of what the stats say. I just want to get it across. Like they entered an arena at home, their home arena, trying to win and they lost a game. I know it doesn't count in the regular season standings, but don't make it seem like that's not meaningful. I'm sorry.

[Chantel Jennings]

For clarity, what Ben is referring to is the Commissioner's cup game against the Indiana Fever. And I agree with you, Ben, I agree with you. Every time we had seen right after they lost that game, they had won another home game and everyone was talking about oh yeah, the home streak continues. And it was like, but it did it. But it quite. Look, try to find those stats.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Those stats do not exist anymore.

[Chantel Jennings]

They don't exist. They don't exist. So we just have to follow the rules of what it said. But yeah, Ben, we right here we are locked in. Guys, I'm doing the Eye just to.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Add on to what Ben said real quick about the movement that could happen at the bottom of the standings. There could also be some like actual movement in the WNBA because the WNBA trade deadline is August 7th. So as we talk about what teams look like in a week or so, it could just be that the rosters have shuffled.

[Chantel Jennings]

Okay, see this is a perfect time to segue. Sabrina, you got time now go catch up on games. Go talk about what you're going to talk about for next week's Sabrina scale. We're going to let you go and bring in our special guests to talk about the CBA Money. All the above. Don't go anywhere.

[Ben Pickman]

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[F]

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[Chantel Jennings]

All right. Ben and I are incredibly excited to be able to welcome to know off season a fellow colleague at the Athletic. Someone whose byline you very likely have seen on a number of articles, especially when it has to do with with business and basketball. Mike Vorkanoff. Mike, welcome to no off season.

[G]

What's going on? Thank you for having me.

[Chantel Jennings]

Of course. I think you've actually been here before, way in our early days. So Mike, we're happy to have you back. And it couldn't be at a more important time because business is booming in the world of women's basketball. And we are excited to get your insight into so many things. So let's start with the basics. What is the working relationship right now between the NBA and the wnba? Basically on the day to day, what's the interaction like between these two leagues?

[G]

Well, I can't say exactly for the day to day, but I think we can say pretty definitively. They work, you know, kind of closely, right. The WNBA operates out of the NBA offices in midtown Manhattan. They share some staff, they work together on projects. We know that, you know, NBA folks will talk to WNBA folks about some stuff that they're doing together. We know that the ownership overlaps by quite a bit and increasingly ever more so with every new WNBA team that arises. So I would say, you know, they work pretty closely. And I know the WNBA has staffed up in recent years as part of the, you know, some of the capital raise money that they put to work. But I think they're, you know, still kind of working together to a good degree.

[Chantel Jennings]

And when folks like love to say, and this is like one of my favorite quotes to hate, that the NBA subsidizes the WNBA and they utilize that as a way to denigrate the wnba, what does that actually mean, NBA subsidizes the wnba?

[G]

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. The way that I like to think about it, and I think some people within the NBA think about it, is that the WNBA is its own league, right? But it is also a league that the NBA runs, right. It's not as if the WNBA has sovereignty, so to speak, right? Like has a commissioner, obviously, with Kathy Engelbert, has its front office, its own staff, all league office. But it is still a league also that operates within the greater NBA, right. Like Adam Silver, for lack of a better word, is still Kathy Engelbert's boss, right? Like he was part of the people that hired her, that put her in place and you know, obviously the ownership group there, since there's a lot of overlap between WNBA owners and NBA owners, right. There's also some ownership there and who's ultimately Adam's boss and her boss as well too. And I think the fact that there's. You're kind of like a co working relationship, a co symbiotic relationship, like whatever you want to describe, I'm probably not using the right word. I think it's fair to say that the WNBA to some degree works independently, but to some degree also works within the NBA itself.

[Ben Pickman]

But we should say too, Mike, like this dynamic has changed a lot since the founding of the league. I think that's an important piece of context here because basically it was by rule when the WNBA was founded in the late 90s, that all of the original franchises were owned also by NBA affiliates. And it wasn't until the Connecticut sun came into the league, I think it's 2002, 2003, the sun were the first kind of non NBA own team and they started to expand into non NBA owned markets. And that is where, you know, when we flash forward then 20 years and we talk about the CBA and expansion, like that's where these waters get so murky now because you have some ownership groups, as you're saying, and you so truly point out, that are NBA affiliated teams and some that are independents and the dynamics between each of those franchises is pretty, pretty different.

[G]

Yeah. And I would say, like trying to describe it really also I think kind of flows with the history of the WNBA too, right? The WNBA was founded because then NBA commissioner David Stern wanted to found the, the wnba. He asked a lot of NBA owners to help fund it, right? They owned part of the league, part of every team rather, and then also part of the league and this convoluted ownership structure that they have. And then as you said, like the Connecticut sun were the first non NBA ownership group. And then more teams started to get independent. And I think that also came at a time where probably just reading between what happened, NBA owners also didn't want to be a part of the league anymore, right? To that degree they obviously still were because the ownership structure is that. And now we see them getting back into the league because now they found, hey, there's money to be made, right? Like we want to get in on this. And so now they're again, kind of coming closer together once more, I guess.

[Ben Pickman]

Along those lines, Mike, because I think this is something like I've been thinking about. I know we talked to Zena and Sabrina and I think, you know, all of us have talked a lot about is that the ownership dynamics between the NBA and the WNBA are really interesting right now because we see in the NBA that there are some big time sales that have just gone through, right? The Lakers, the Celtics. It's not that long ago that, you know, the Bucks had a sale at the top, right? One of their key owners sold their stake in the team.

[G]

Here, I'll give you the number 10, 10 control sales in the last six years.

[Ben Pickman]

There you go. I mean, that's a Significant number of sales. Whereas in the WNBA we've also seen a number of transactions, but we've really seen a lot of people trying to get into the league and we've done a lot of reporting about all the teams that the ownership groups that have not even gotten teams, right. That have bid for expansion teams but have not gotten, I guess. What do you think is like, is there something that explains that dynamic that you have all the controlling sales in the NBA and you have this flood of interest in the W. How do you kind of think about those two things going on at the same time?

[G]

Well, I think they happen for two different reasons. Right. The reason we've seen so many control sales in the NBA the last like half decade, let's say, is because the values of NBA teams have skyrocketed. Right. Like a lot. Some of these teams are bought in the 80s, the 90s, in the Lakers in 1979. Right. Even the early 2000s, and their values have gone up 10, 20. I can't even do the math on 10 billion valuation compared to like, you know, part of a $67 million sale in 1979 for the Lakers. Right. Like, and some of the owners are just like, hey, I'm cashing out. Like, I've made a lot of money, my investors have made a lot of money. I'm going to go do something else. Right. I think that's what's driving some of the sales in the NBA. And plus, you know, the business has gotten to the point where it's pretty consistent with the national media deals that they have. And so some of the risks associated to owning an NBA team, I would say are kind of like gone. Right. Like with the new CBA and the new media rights deal, you're in a good place where your valuation is going to go up and you're also going to be probably turning a profit. Right. Unless you're a very high second apron salary team in the wnba. I think the valuation is, you know, and the reason for the sales are coming from a different point. Like WNBA teams not so long ago weren't worth that much. Right. Like we've seen, you know, the Liberty didn't, you know, I think they went for mostly debt when they were sold in 2019. The Aces didn't go for much, like relatively speaking, the Dream didn't go for that much, relatively speaking. Right. We saw WNBA valuations be pretty flat from when the sun bought in, I think about $10 million to when, you know, like the Dream owner bought in and bought the team in 2020. And so now there's money to be made in the sense that media rights are going to be great comparatively for the league starting next season. Revenues up, sponsorship revenues up, like all these things are coming in. And so now you have people trying to take advantage of that and come in to a league where there's an even scarcer amount of teams. Right. There was only 12 up until what, two years ago?

[Ben Pickman]

Up until this year, Mike. Up until this year? Up until this year.

[G]

Well, I mean, like there were some expansion teams. Like they came into it, so they're, they're kind of out. But yeah, like only 12 teams playing. And so like it's a different, different kind of demand coming in. Right. And also, like, if you're a billionaire, multi billionaire, it's a lot easier to pay $100 million for a team than it is to pay like 4 billion.

[Chantel Jennings]

It seems like the WNBA is the new shiny thing with this limitless, it feels like ceiling in terms of money that you can make, whereas the NBA is more established. You kind of know what your, your, your outlook will look like, particularly in the next few years with the CBA and these meteorite sales being set up. And the thing about it is, as you're mentioning all of these aspects of the possibilities around the wnba, it seems like there's a lot of opportunity for profit. However, Adam Silver, the commissioner of the NBA, he often talks about how they can't make the WNBA profitable. But aren't there reasons why the NBA would want to be like, why would they not be involved more in trying to make the WNBA profitable? What goes into making statements like this?

[G]

Yeah, I mean, I think it was Ben who reported in your story the other day, right. That the WNBA and his teams had never had a profitable year up until this point. Maybe next year, the 2026 season will be the first one. You know, a large part of profitability now just comes from media rights deals. It just counts for like such a large number, such a large percentage of all the revenue that they get. Obviously the WNBA is going to start, but 2.2 billion, 11 year deal. They got some other deals that I think they're hoping to close. So, you know, I think they're going to expect to like 6x their media rights revenues. I think the hard part about figuring out profitability for all the WNBA teams and the league itself, and I feel like this is something Ben and I have talked about ad nauseam off Mike is like, how does the money work? And I can't answer that confidently. I can with Some degree in the NBA because it's one league, 30 teams split it up, right? Like you just kind of a math problem. You know, we've heard a lot in the WNBA that there's a waterfall. Well, like where does it start? Where does it end? Who's a part of the waterfall? How, you know, like when you're at the bottom of the waterfall, whoever it is, how, how small is that amount of water that you're getting, right? Is it just like just a few drips and drabs that are coming down.

[Chantel Jennings]

There by the end?

[G]

And I think that makes it hard to say, you know, why the league isn't profitable, why teams aren't profitable or when they eventually will be in those both of those cases. And you know, I think that's a, that's a key thing that investors also have to figure out. Like I remember doing reporting on expansion a few years ago before they had named this 13th team, before they still had 12 before Ben shuts me down again. You know, at that point, remember the warriors bought. The warriors ownership group, bought the franchise for $50 million. There were some invest interested investors who weren't sure that $50 million was worth it and could kind of stand up financially that the finances and the business economics of that would work for them. And Obviously we've gotten two different plays now. We just saw three teams go for $250 million each. Right. So that's how much things have changed. But you know, the finances of W are much more complicated, I would say.

[Ben Pickman]

Than, than the NBA to the team point, Mike. Like, you know, I think we should spend another minute on that because that is kind of the. It's this tricky question that we get asked and I think every team is a little bit different about how is the money and resources, how are they allocated. Right. And that is a question at the league office level. Like we saw after the capital raise that was, you know, just a couple years ago in the WNBA, the WNBA went from a one person marketing team to 25. And I think they've hired subsequently. They added their first ever cmo. They hired a chief growth officer for the first time. They've made all these hires. The question is like who was doing any of these roles prior to that capital raise and who was paying those people? Like that is a resources and a budgeting allocation question. You also see it on the team side where a lot of teams like, you know, are you a full time employee of the Liberty or the Fever or the Phoenix Mercury or do you work for, you know, BSE the parent company that owns both the Liberty and the Nets. Right. Or, you know, it's gonna be in Cleveland. What is it? Rock Entertainment Group is gonna be the, like the entity that owns the new WNBA franchise. Well, they also own the NBA's Cleveland Cavaliers. How are those people, you know, budgeted and paid? And you know, when we talk about resource allocation, like, I think we have seen a positive trend among at least the upper echelon of franchises that some of these broader groups are hiring more people to just focus on, say, the Liberty or say the Mercury or the Fever. Whereas in the past there might have been people who were stretched a little bit thin. But look, these are private businesses. That's where there's like this opaqueness about what is exactly going on and who does one work for. It's this like, like such an open ended question at so many different levels.

[G]

Yeah. And I'd also say, I think part of the reason why the WNBA has been attracted to ownership groups that have NBA teams already is I think it's just kind of easier for them to start up quickly.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Right.

[G]

Like, if you're a new team with no business team in place. Like, like, forget the basketball side of it, the gm, all that stuff. Like, you know, the Valkyries, the Warriors already had sponsorship people. They had a sales team, they had all that stuff. And like, the Valkyries hired their own people too. But now you could sell sponsorships across the warriors, across the Valkyries and across the Chase Center. Right. Like, same thing in Cleveland, like, all this stuff. And so they'll have their own dedicated teams, but I think they also pull from, like, the larger business at work there, and maybe they feel like they can kind of like optimize the amount of money that they bring in. And I think that was harder to do in the past as well, just because there wasn't as much interest in the W. And I think the inflection point, like, came around 2020 when there began to be a lot more interest than, you know, now, like, we see teams all the time almost struggling to keep up. Right. Like the Fever had to struggle to keep up. Right. When Caitlin Clark came to town, like, the Liberty had to keep up. Like all these other teams are figuring out, like, we got to hire, we got to hire a lot of people to make sure that we can deal with all the businesses that want to deal with us and like, all the money that we could potentially make.

[Chantel Jennings]

I know this firsthand because of my original role in sports business when I was getting recruited to go sell tickets or Sell group sales or sell sponsorships at teams. I was getting recruited to organizations that had multiple franchises so monumental in Washington D.C. brooklyn, in New York, Golden State Entertainment now before just the Golden State warriors, like is the newest iteration of this. But there are so many of these conglomerates that now have, you know, an NBA team underneath them, a G league team underneath them. They might have a hockey team underneath them. There's so many different versions of this. And I know a lot of people, their instinct when they saw that the three teams that were two of the three teams that were being added to the WNBA were affiliated with an NBA team and they had a sour taste in their mouth because of what it was originally. As Ben mentioned, you know, it was mandated back then that you needed to have an NBA team be the sponsor behind a WNBA team. And everyone was like, well, do we want to be associated with these NBA owners that didn't find the value in it before? Well, one, there's been a lot of turnover and Ben has mentioned that on this show before too. But two, as you mentioned, Mike, when I was getting recruited, this is almost 10 years ago, just dated myself, but almost 10 years ago when I was getting recruited, it was, you're going to come in and maybe your main job is going to be to sell tickets or sponsorships for, you know, the NBA team or the hockey team, et cetera. But you're also going to sell across platform. That's what it was called. You would sell across the entire portfolio. And that is part of, of the subsidization that you can see NBA teams do in that they cross over their employees. That is not the case anymore because the WNBA warrants the individual talent. But trust and believe the warriors absolutely were utilizing talent for a minute, for a little second to sell across platforms until they could individually move folks over or hire new folks. And this is why you do want this NBA affiliation, in my opinion, because you do want top tier talent, you do want top tier infrastructure. You don't want to see what some of these teams are experiencing in terms of the facilities for these players being subpar or being outsourced. Right? Like that's why the warriors have created such a great experience. The Valkyries are playing where the warriors won three of their four championships. You know what I mean? Like, that's a big deal and that's an always a very big positive. Now I say all that to say, having been on that side of the business, having experienced what it looks like, there's still this aspect of how NBA ownership impacts the revenue Share. And this is where we got a really great question from a listener, Jennifer A. She wanted a better understanding of where in this new CBA the share of revenue of players is going to come from. We mentioned recently on our show that basically because of this split between the NBA, the equity owners and the WNBA owners, that there is going to be a split of revenue. However much the revenue comes in, it needs to be allocated to the investors first before it can be reallocated to the players. I'll actually read her quote that stood out to me because it seems inconsistent with how most businesses or sports leagues operate. Labor compensation, like player salaries, is typically negotiated through collective bargaining and doesn't depend on who owns equity in the league. Generally, equity gives you access to profit distributions, not revenue distributions. And I wanted to hear your thoughts on that.

[G]

Yeah, I mean, it's a fascinating question and I'm gonna not cop out, but hopefully go back to what I said earlier, which is it's hard to answer for the W, I think, compared to like other leagues, right? Because one, for other sports it is revenue distribution, right? Like in the NBA, in the NFL and hockey, MLB doesn't have it, so they don't apply here. But even when something teams were losing money, players were still getting a percentage of the revenue, right? It wasn't like percentage of our profits. You know, the NBA. Like I'm going to use the NBA because I know that one well, you know, The CBA guarantees 49 to 51% of basketball related income, right? Like it doesn't say basketball related profits. So in that sense it's not like it doesn't. It's not like another business. Now I think the interesting question is, and I would love to hear both from a WNBA exec and somebody was with the wnbpa. Email me, call me. You know, like what counts as revenue, Right. Like when, you know, Ben and I reported a story, I think it was last fall about how 2020 was kind of this inflection point for the league. You know, in their capital raise, they brought on these investors, right? They brought on investors that bought up 16% of the week and they were preferred investors that were guaranteed a 5% dividend, right? So if they get paid out ahead of everyone else, are you counting that money as revenue that can potentially then be split between players? Right. If NBA owners own 42%, what do you do with that money when it comes to figuring out what's part of the revenue for the WNBA that you can then split? If you're just talking about a revenue Share. If the WNBA and the WNBPA say, hey, in this cba we're going to do a revenue share, we're going to split it X percent. What's that denominator? So I think that's fascinating. And so figuring that out, I'm sure is going to be something that is on the table. Like you see that even in the NBA. You know, part of the last CBA discussion was saying, hey, what part will count as bri? Like the MBPA was like, hey, we want to get part of our licensing dollars into it as part of some of the money that we can split up. Right. So these things are always negotiable to some degree. And so where the, the players union and the league land on, that's going to be fascinating. And I think it's going to dictate part of where this goes. It does seem like just agreeing to a revenue sharing number would be the, the kind of the simplest split on how to figure out how to both raise salaries and, you know, get players paid in a way that is more equitable compared with the other professional sports leagues.

[Chantel Jennings]

I was just going to mention like, the reason why it feels really convoluted. You're questioning of like what counts as revenue. I'm immediately thinking if I'm a WNBA team that plays in my NBA owned arena and on the NBA side, I know that basketball related income includes concessions, for example. Right. It includes sales that the team, like the team arena might make. Is that revenue that I can then count fully as my own? Because if revenue in that arena happened during my games, but it's in an NBA owned arena, how does that get split up? That's just one example of just how convoluted this can get. And I have no idea if anyone is ever going to come out and explain, you know, X, Y and Z. But these are the questions that we have to ask. And I want to ask both Ben and Mike. And I'm going to start with you, Ben, because you've been covering this for a very long time and you cover the basketball aspect of feels as if this is great. All of this money has been infiltrated into the league and it's awesome. We love it because that means people are making money and women's sports is at the focus of it and it's awesome. However, I don't believe the league was ready for this level of scrutiny. I don't think, and I don't know if, if they knew that announcing a $250 million team would make you question, hmm, the last team that came in was at 50 million. Okay, value's going up, but the players are still crying about salaries. And I don't want to say crying. I mean, quite literally crying out like they want to change their revenue share and get paid better salaries. Was the W prepared for this level of eyeballs on the explosion in money?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I think a lot of key stakeholders would say no. Like, I think they would say. And I remember asking Terry Jackson, the head of the wnbpa, this question at the start of last season. And I asked her, like, was the W ready for this moment? And she said, you know, do I think the league was ready? No. But if I can be honest, she said, I don't think anyone would have been ready. And I think that's kind of the common sentiment that a lot of people, people have voiced that people were maybe as prepared as they could have been or what they thought they could have been. And maybe that is a little bit of a cop out on some people's perspectives. But then, like, the tidal wave hit even stronger and more forcefully than anyone could have expected or projected. Like, that is, I think, you know, what the WNBA is currently dealing with that like, you know, the projections on revenue, on interest, on ratings, like, you know, it is a, it is a steep, steep incline. It is not just like a gradual incline at this point from last season and this season compared to what it has been in the past. And so in that way, like the question of staffing in terms of, you know, from a league level and from a team level, like I think we've just seen, I'm sure if you did an aggregate study about teams and leagues, the amount of hiring that has been done over the last two or three years, I'm sure it's a significant, significant number. And, you know, a number that is significantly more than the years that preceded it. Right. And that is, I think, a reflection of teams and the league recognizing, like, we need more resources, we need more people to try and handle the tidal wave of interest that is now kind of struck the league and is set to carry it forth into this new era.

[Chantel Jennings]

Yeah, because it's one thing to spend that money because you get it, but it's a whole nother thing to explain how you spent it, to explain where it came from, to explain where it's going. Like that is a lot there. Mike, I'm going to close with one question for you.

[G]

Well, wait, can I, can I jump in real quick?

[Chantel Jennings]

Oh, yeah, actually, yes, because I was.

[G]

Wondering about something because, like, I Think it's actually interesting. The WNBA also had a different. Like, I totally agree with Ben that I think it wasn't ready for it. Like, the amount of interest that hit the league starting in the 2024 season. Right. Was unlike any it had ever seen for a number of reasons. But, you know, I think primarily because of Caitlin Clark and then primarily because of Angel Reese. And, like, all of that kind of took advantage of all the momentum they'd gone for.

[Chantel Jennings]

Yeah.

[G]

But it also had a different problem, which is it had a lot of interest all of a sudden. Like, there was a lot of people who are interested. A lot of people in good faith, right? A lot of people who are like, oh, man, this is like, the game's getting better. Like, we got some new stars. Let's watch Caitlin Ball. Let's watch Stewie, let's watch Asia. Let's watch Angel Reese. A lot of people in bad faith, right, who were there to troll, who were there to weaponize any potential stuff that happens in their larger culture battle, right?

[Chantel Jennings]

Rocket.

[G]

But the money didn't come right away, right? Like, the media rights went up, but they haven't even kicked in yet, right? The sponsorship money. There was new sponsors, but some of the deals have been signed already. And so maybe the W is overperforming, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you get more money out of that, right? A contract's a contract. The gate, all that stuff. Like, I think that was also kind of the line that I had to walk is like, okay, we got way more people who care. We got way more eyeballs. We got more clicks, more like, whatever's. More people tweeting about us. But, like, the money doesn't follow suit right away, so there's a lag time there that it has to account for. And I think that creates another issue, right? Like, when you don't get that money right away to be able to staff up as fast as you want to, because they already spent some of that 75 million capital raises, you know, some of the teams, maybe if you're not doing as well in the gate as, like, the Fever are the Liberty are, you don't have as much money to spend, right? Like, I think that's why we saw all these teams go out and raise money through investing, right? Like, you sell equity to get cash on hand right away so you could build up your practice facility, build up your staff, hire more PR people, hire more basketball ops, like, all these things. So I think that also kind of created, like, this. I don't know I don't want to call it like a tsunami to continue Ben's like, aqua theme here. But like, you know, this mix of problems all coming together at once, some good, some bad that you have to account for and figure out in real time.

[Ben Pickman]

What do you think Xena, about, like, the social aspect? Because, you know, and I want to give a hat tip to Sir Soi of the Ringer for this theory that she threw out on her most recent podcast podcast episode that like the WNBA this season, at the start of this season created this like, no space for hate initiative, right? Because it, it seemed like it was its effort to try and get ahead of any kind of conversations and discourse that it might not have gotten ahead of at the start of last year. But what was so interesting is, and Cyr made this point on her show, like, maybe it only took Courtney Williams and Natisha Heidman streaming on Twitch, like a behind the scenes look at All Star Weekend to show fans that, like, hey, like, your favorite players might be really competitive on the court, but like, and look, some obviously don't get along with everyone and that's totally okay. But like, actually, like, the, the vibes here are a lot better than what people realize. And it wasn't like hiring. It wasn't PR messaging. It wasn't like, you know, emails, tweets, anything like PSAs. It was just like, like, let's just give people a peek behind the curtain. Maybe that's the lesson in this mic. As reporters. We should say give people a peek behind the curtain and they'll realize like, you know, what these dynamics really are.

[Chantel Jennings]

But yes, right, right, right. You're making such a good point, Ben. And I don't know if you knew to ask me this question because I already have a theory around it, but I call it the bubble wrap theory. And I think this is true for a lot of women's sports, but especially the wnba. The WNBA is composed of players that represent so many different backgrounds. And I'm talking about, of course, racial, sexual orientation, economic, socioeconomic. Like, there's so much representation there. But for years, a lot of. And let's just be direct about it, particularly the fact that the league had a lot of black women and a lot of queer women. It was kind of like, let's just put the bubble wrap on it. We don't want to scare anyone away. We don't want to make anyone kind of like, I don't know, we don't want to dissuade anyone from supporting this league because of how these players Represent themselves in their personal lives. So let's really focus on the basketball and when you talk about the social aspect of it, I think that, that there's a bad reverb that could happen from that. And you only focus on the basketball and don't allow these players to be their true selves. Now there's an opportunity for people to make up assumptions and make up the stories for the players. And that's what you saw a lot of in this no space for hate conversation where people were taking players play on the court and their competitive energy on the court and how they interact with players on the court to create a narrative about who those players were off the court. And what you just mentioned, the stud buds, for example, the 72 hour stream, it was, I think it was, that was a perfect, just blow up. That was tearing off the bubble wrap that they've had around these players in terms of who they are, how they show up, what they like, what they don't like, what music they want to dance to. If, I mean you tore, and it's not just the players, you tore off the bubble wrap off of Kathy Engelbert. People thought this woman was a dry, stuck up, you know, woman that didn't want to be around the players that was from Deloitte and was just like by the line. She is doing the line dance with the stud buds, okay? And there's, there's value to that. There is such value to being able to take off this bubble wrap. And I think that this is another thing, and I'm so happy you asked that, that I don't think the WNBA was prepared to do, to properly tell the stories of these women as it blew up and to understand that it's not just the basketball. You got to tell, tell the rest of these stories. Because as much as maybe the NBA doesn't focus on the personal, guess what? I know way too much about Zion Williamson that I'd like to know. I know way too much about some of these players than I'd like to, to know. So this happens anyways, right? The bubble wrap has been off for these players. But we know there's these, these social aspects of, you know, being a woman, being female athletes, being competitive women. Like there's so many aspects that are way deeper from a sociological perspective and anthropological perspective that we're not going to get into. But I think the WNBA has learned, especially after that week of this past All Star weekend, like hey, it might be time to take the bubble wrap off. We might be ready now to understand the depth of it. And it ain't just fashion. We love the rock, the walkways, you know, we love the walk ins of like what they're wearing. It's way deeper than that. It's way deeper than that.

[G]

Yeah. And I think, I mean, if you think about like what's the most important times in the league's history, it was 2020, right? When all. Not all of a sudden, but like obviously at that point the league got a lot more political, right. The players rather got a lot more political, got a lot louder and saying what they believed and what they stood up for. And not a coincidence that the league has been on the ascent since then. I think so. Every time players are more authentic and their voices are heard, I think the league and the players benefit from it. And I think, you know, part of that is just like this happens, I.

[Ben Pickman]

Think with every league.

[G]

The people who make the decisions aren't like the people who can speak to the consumers. Right. Like, you know, just if you're making the ads, you're making the choices about how to market people, doesn't mean you can speak to the consumers, can speak for the consumers, know what they're interested in. Right. Like authenticity belongs to the players and the players alone. And you know, to Kathy Engelbert and Kathy Engelbert alone. Right. Like, if she wants to go out that, do more of that, that'd be awesome. Yes. But like, you know, the more you let people be themselves, I think that's what people just like, especially now in 2025, when everything just feels fake all the time. Right. Like, so don't try to, don't try to be more AI sludge. Just let people be who they are.

[Chantel Jennings]

Absolutely. And this is one of the things that I think the players can use as leverage in the cba. We are the product. We are the thing that people are buying into. There are people that aren't playing many minutes in the wnba. Their jerseys are still selling. Right. That's value that they have, regardless. So I'm very excited to see where this CBA conversation goes, how this expansion conversation continues to go. And Mike Vorkanov, we're very grateful to have you on the team working with us. I know you and Ben have collabed on several projects. Excited to have that continue on the site to give us all the insight. Thanks for joining us, Mike.

[G]

Hey, anytime, anytime.

[H]

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[F]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Term supply See CapitalOne.com Bank Capital One.

[Chantel Jennings]

NA Member FDIC the snack wrap is.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Back this episode of Giggly Squad is brought to you by McDonald's and I'm so excited to tell you that the.

[Chantel Jennings]

Snack wrap featuring juicy white meat, chicken.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

Shredded lettuce, melty cheese, creamy ranch. Sorry I'm drooling on the microphone right.

[Chantel Jennings]

Now, all wrapped in a soft tortilla is back on the menu.

[Mike Vorkanoff]

They have it in ranch or spicy, a spicy pepper sauce. If you're feeling frisky, try the Snack.

[Chantel Jennings]

Wrap that broke the Internet at a McDonald's near you. Well, that is all we've got for you today. We will be back on Friday. Until then, if you haven't already, please follow our show wherever you're listening. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube. We don't make you wait like the WNBA refs do. Okay, give us a rating. Drop a comment. We love to hear from you. And of course head on over to our partner Yahoo Sports Hub for more content. Sports.yahoo.com Womens Sports on behalf of the athletic Mike Vorkanoff, Ben Pickman, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening. We'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Keda with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of Women's Basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations.

[Zena Kada]

Hey, I'm Trisha Hershberger, gamer, streamer and Amazon Live host. I stream about tech, gaming and the stuff I actually buy right here with my community. And Amazon Live makes it easy. Streaming, gameplay, scouting, new gear, chatting and shopping all at the same time. That's my kind of multitasking. And it all happens on Amazon Live. Shop on Amazon Live by searching Amazon Live in the Amazon Shopping app and follow your favorite creators Today, Banking with.

[F]

Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks Capital One Bank Guy. What's in your wallet? Term supply See CapitalOne.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC this is Paige, the.

[Zena Kada]

Co host of Giggly Squad. I use Uber Eats for everything and I feel like people forget that you can truly order anything, especially living in New York City. It's why I love it. You can get Chinese food at any time of night, but it's not just for food. I order from CVS all the time. I'm always ordering from the grocery store. If a friend stops over, I have to order champagne. I also have this thing that whenever I travel, if I'm ever in a hotel room, I never feel like I'm missing something because I'll just Uber eats it. The amount of times I've had to Uber eats hair items like hairspray, deodorant, you name it, I've ordered it. On Ubereats. You can get grocery alcohol everyday essentials in addition to restaurants and food you love. So in other words, get Almost anything with UberEats. Order now for alcohol. You must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.