EMERGENCY POD: Caitlin Clark, McAfee and the state of WNBA Media with Marcus Thompson

Summary

Podcast Summary: EMERGENCY POD: Caitlin Clark, McAfee and the State of WNBA Media with Marcus Thompson

Podcast Information:

• Title: No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
• Host: Zena Kada
• Guest: Marcus Thompson, Legendary Writer for The Athletic
• Episode Release Date: June 4, 2024

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Introduction and Context

In this urgent episode of No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show, host Zena Kada brings an in-depth discussion on recent controversial events affecting the WNBA's media coverage. Joining her is Marcus Thompson, a distinguished writer from The Athletic, to dissect the evolving narrative around women's basketball, particularly focusing on Caitlin Clark and the broader implications for the league's media portrayal.

Key Event: The Caitlin Clark and Kennedy Carter Incident

The episode kicks off by addressing a pivotal moment from June 3, 2024, involving a contentious foul between Caitlin Clark and Kennedy Carter during a WNBA game. Zena Kada outlines the incident:

• Timestamp [05:43]: Kada describes how Kennedy Carter fouled Caitlin Clark, which escalated into physical altercations, including derogatory language and aggressive physical contact.

• Timestamp [08:21]: Klaida highlights the media's reaction, noting that MSNBC labeled the play as "assault," while the WNBA's official review ultimately categorized it as a "common foul," later upgraded to a "flagrant foul."

Media Backlash and ESPN's First Take Coverage

Zena Kada critiques ESPN's First Take show for their extensive and arguably biased coverage of the incident:

• Timestamp [06:07]: Kada explains that First Take, typically focused on men's sports debates, dedicated nearly 45 minutes to discussing the Caitlin Clark-Kennedy Carter altercation, bringing in commentator Monica McNutt.

• Timestamp [09:41]: Marcus Thompson remarks, "I mean, Molly literally had to say, we have to stop right now," highlighting the show's inability to steer away from the topic despite its lack of relevance to women's basketball.

• Timestamp [11:32]: Thompson emphasizes the lack of preparedness and sensitivity from First Take, stating, "He [Stephen A. Smith] was trying to defend himself," indicating a dismissive attitude towards the issue.

Pat McAfee's Controversial Comments and Impact on WNBA Media

The discussion shifts to Pat McAfee's recent remarks on ESPN, which further inflamed media perceptions of the WNBA:

• Timestamp [46:10]: Kada brings up a tweet clipping Pat McAfee's show where he referred to Caitlin Clark as "one white bitch" among Indiana players, intending it as a compliment but receiving backlash for its derogatory language.

• Timestamp [48:14]: Thompson firmly states, "I just don't believe it's ever appropriate, ever. It's just never appropriate," condemning McAfee's language regardless of intent.

• Timestamp [50:10]: Both hosts discuss how such comments perpetuate negative stereotypes and hinder the growth and respect of the WNBA, with Thompson noting, "This is real hoop. I can't express that enough."

Impact on the WNBA and Calls for Improved Media Coverage

Zena Kada and Marcus Thompson delve into the broader implications of media portrayals on the perception and growth of the WNBA:

• Timestamp [21:24]: Thompson discusses the challenges men face in covering women's sports without being labeled negatively, emphasizing the need for humility and genuine support.

• Timestamp [25:11]: Kada compares the WNBA's media treatment to the NBA's, highlighting the disparity in attention and respect given to female athletes.

• Timestamp [33:55]: The conversation touches on historical parallels, such as the Detroit Pistons' reputation in the NBA, to illustrate entrenched biases in sports media.

Insights and Recommendations

Throughout the episode, both Kada and Thompson advocate for a more respectful and nuanced approach to covering women's basketball:

• Timestamp [36:18]: Thompson encourages media professionals to prioritize the sport and its athletes over personal agendas, stating, "We need to talk about basketball."

• Timestamp [39:48]: Kada emphasizes the importance of dedicated platforms like No Offseason in providing comprehensive coverage and a safe space for fans to engage with women's basketball.

• Timestamp [43:12]: Thompson urges for continued education and support from media and fans alike, highlighting the opportunity to elevate the league during this pivotal moment.

Conclusion

In wrapping up, Zena Kada reinforces the necessity of open discourse and accountability within sports media to foster a more supportive environment for the WNBA. She invites listeners to engage with the show, provide feedback, and continue supporting women's basketball through informed and respectful conversations.

• Timestamp [59:19]: Kada summarizes, "We need to talk about basketball. That's what needs to happen."

The episode serves as a critical examination of the current state of WNBA media coverage, advocating for change and heightened respect to ensure the league's growth and the recognition of its talented athletes.

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Notable Quotes:

• Marcus Thompson [05:37]: "I'm glad I'm emergency podcast material. Let's go."

• Marcus Thompson [11:32]: "He has to pick and choose his words."

• Marcus Thompson [16:03]: "The most disrespected person in America, the most neglected person in America, is the black woman."

• Zena Kada [35:00]: "You have to be prepared."

• Marcus Thompson [52:34]: "Let's let people see how much talent is, like, so now I feel like if Pat McAfee wanted to, instead of, like, saying stuff like that, he could be like, let me show you."

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Final Thoughts:

This episode of No Offseason underscores the ongoing challenges and necessary conversations surrounding women's basketball and its portrayal in the media. By bringing in voices like Marcus Thompson, the podcast fosters a critical dialogue aimed at improving the ecosystem for female athletes and ensuring their achievements receive the recognition they deserve.

Transcript

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[Zena Kada]

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[Zena Kada]

Foreign for the Athletic I'm Zena Kada and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show Emergency Pod Version all right folks, I want to personally thank ESPN because they have given me all the content we need for this one Emergency Pod discussion. Of course I have to be a great host and introduce who I'm going to be having this conversation with, and that is none other than the legendary writer for the athletic Marcus Thompson. Marcus, welcome.

[Marcus Thompson]

I'm glad I'm emergency podcast material. Let's go. I'm ready. I'm ready. In the pinch, I'm with it.

[Zena Kada]

But the thing is, when you have this level of thing, like these levels of things happening and there's just a stream of consciousness, you need someone with, like, a legitimate, I don't know, ability to articulate. Because I am just trying to find words right now for what in the world is happening in the coverage of women's basketball, and I just can't. And so hopefully, in a pinch, you'll be able to help me out.

[Marcus Thompson]

I mean, let's hope my words are evading me, too, because this is crazy.

[Zena Kada]

It is crazy. Let's lay the groundwork as to what we're talking about, particularly two events here, all on the morning of June 3rd. Who knew this is going to be in the history books, folks? June 3, 2024, when all the men covering the WNBA lost their minds. No, that's a little dramatic. But seriously, though, start with First Take show on espn, hosted by Stephen A. Smith, along with Molly Caram, who moderates the discussion, and Shannon Sharp. These two men often start First Take with some football conversations, you know, the hot topics of today. They bring in some guests to, quote, battle with Stephen A. And Shannon. And then Shannon and Stephen A. Sometimes battle each other. But today, the guest of honor for First Take was none other than Monica McNutt, NBA and WNBA commentator, former player herself at Georgetown, and an amazing radio analysts, color analysts, very much immersed in the world of basketball on both ends. And I've never seen anything like this, Marcus. But they had 40, almost 45 minutes of first take. Started the show with almost 45 uninterrupted minutes debating WNBA and particularly this play that happened over the course of the weekend between Kennedy Carter and Caitlin Clark. If you're not familiar with what happened, it was a foul committed by Kennedy Carter on Caitlin Clark in the midst of a game. She was waiting. Caitlin Clark was waiting to get the ball inbounded to her. And you see Kennedy Carter clearly in retaliation, upset, frustrated, yell, you little B word. Keep that in mind. We're going to use that later. B word. Yeah, little B word. Runs up to her, behind her and hip checks her booty, bumps her, moves her a little bit out of the side. Okay, Now, MSNBC said it was assault. Good Morning America covered this and said.

[Marcus Thompson]

It was no way.

[Zena Kada]

Yes, yes, yes. This is what was said about this egregious play. Now, for the record, in the game this was called a common foul. The WNBA later reviewed, after review, by the way, after review, they called it a common foul, obviously upsetting fans. I remember watching it and being like, Kennedy Carter, what the actual F are you doing? What was that for? You can be upset, you can be frustrated. Not a good move. Terrible, terrible decision in the game, period. And just also because that game was close. Now, they reviewed it after the game and upgraded it to a flagrant foul. But that didn't end the conversation. It became a media maelstrom. Just everyone having thoughts and opinions on what Kennedy Carter did and how this was evidence of this media narrative around the WNBA being jealous of Caitlin Clark. Now, that conversation continued on into Monday, going all the way back to this First Take on June 3, where Monica McNutt joined First Take to talk about this with Stephen A. And Shannon Sharp. And they spent almost 45 minutes straight talking about this. Number one, Marcus. Have you ever seen that on First Take or really any live television show?

[Marcus Thompson]

Not especially not about women's basketball. I mean, Molly literally had to say, we have to stop right now. Right? Like, Molly literally had to be like, I just, like, they're in my ear telling me they're going.

[Zena Kada]

She's like, let me do my job. She's like, please let me do my job.

[Marcus Thompson]

Literally felt like. It felt like, you know, that station identification thing was about to come on. Or like the granny was like, listen, we have to stop. I've never seen that. I've never seen that.

[Zena Kada]

I mean, they should have put like the Oscar music. I mean, like, everyone just like slowly drowns out with the music. But no, it was, it was, it was a crazy in depth conversation. And for those of you that watched the full 40, 45 minutes of it, you saw just how much was coming out about particularly how the WNBA has been indicted because of this one act by Kennedy Carter saying that all the players were jealous and that they are. They're, you know, trying to hurt them. One thing that's helping their league lift all these things. Now, the main part that has been clipped and circulated all around social media has been, was particularly the end, Monica McNutt telling Stephen A. Basically that, you know, she resents this narrative about the wnba. She definitely condemns what happened with Kennedy Carter, but that should not be an indictment on the entire league. And it ends up creating a situation in which Stephen A. Is saying that, I hate that. B, I'm paraphrasing, I hate that he's trying to critique what the women of the WNBA are doing to basically hinder their growth. He has to pick and choose his words. Monica McNutt proceeds to say, well, welcome to the world of a woman. And she just says generically a woman. And Marcus, what does he say back to that?

[Marcus Thompson]

He said, what about being a black man?

[Zena Kada]

What about being a black man? And I was just laughing because, for.

[Marcus Thompson]

The record, I'm a black man.

[Zena Kada]

That's what I'm saying. And that's why I'm happy that I'm having this conversation with you, particularly Marcus, because I want to ask you if you're having a woman, period, but particularly a black woman, express to you the frustrations of how black women, a predominantly black woman league, is being covered and the struggles that are being fought every day in this narrative, particularly when it comes to Caitlin Clark. And you spend 40 minutes almost uninterrupted talking about this. And when the time comes for someone to say, well, welcome to the world of being a woman, to give you some empathy. Right. Of the fact that you don't like to choose your words wisely or you hate that you have to choose your words wisely or, excuse me, resent that you have to choose your world wisely. I feel like when he said, what about being a black man? I feel like he wasn't listening for you. What did you make of that moment? What do you feel like he missed?

[Marcus Thompson]

I'm not. I'm not sure he missed anything. I think he. I. I would say he understands. I just think he chose to defend himself in that situation. And, yeah, like, you know, Stephen a's a smart man. He's been around a long time. I'd be. I'm certain he's helped numerous women.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

So, yeah. But I think in that moment, he was trying to defend himself, which, you know, I get in that moment. We all can go a little too crazy. I. I think as a black man, it's just wild to get into a struggle, Struggle Olympics with a black woman. Like, I'm not doing that.

[Zena Kada]

I mean, yes, agreed.

[Marcus Thompson]

It was. It was. Malcolm X once said, the most disrespected person in America, the most neglected person in America, is the black woman. And if anybody should understand that, it's a black man. But more important, I think the entire spirit of this whole thing is platforming women, is giving women a voice. So in that situation, like, I'm like, yeah, I wanna. I wanna hear what Monica has to say. I want to understand what Monica's point is. And I do think we could just all be better at understanding that. Like, this is not, this is not the Marcus Thompson moment, right? Like, this is not my moment to shine, right? Or to prove who I am. Like, this is the moment for the people who've been on this grind. And we, we're talking about this from an athlete perspective too, right? One of the, the major issues that people are having is this idea that somehow, like, the start of women's basketball excellence began with Caitlin Clark. And there's this whole generate two generations, multiple generations of women who've been great, even better than Caitlin Clark, but nobody was paying attention. I also think that's true with media, right? I think there are people who've been talking about this sport, who've been covering this sport when it wasn't getting the attention. And so now that the WNBA is here, I feel like they should. The ones who get the shine, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, Monica McNut should get the shine. Like, she, she been in. She been on it, you know what I'm saying? Literally put her own blood, blood, sweat and tears into the sport, right? And we always hear athletes talking about who played and I played. You can't say nothing if you haven't played. Well, she played, she covered it. So I just thinking this is our time to start letting, letting the people who've been doing the shine. I love women's basketball. And I know I haven't covered it. Like, I, I know I have it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I. And I already know who has because I've been reading them, right? Like, so, like, hey, it to me, to me, the entire ecosystem now needs to now say, all right, it's their time. Yeah, like, like, it's, it's their voice, it's their one should be heard. And it's not really our time to talk about, like, what I've been doing for women's basketball, you know what I'm saying?

[Zena Kada]

I'm really happy you brought that up because that was the next part of the conversation. Or the last. The last little bit before they left the show and finally went to break, was Stephen a. Asking Monica McNutt, you know, who's done more for the WNBA than first take. And it. There's a pause and I love.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah.

[Zena Kada]

The pregnant.

[Marcus Thompson]

Hey, this goes back to my. I'm a big lawyer show watcher. Like, I've always loved lawyer shows, and I'm not a lawyer, but one of the things I learned from lawyer shows, I don't even know if this is real or not, is that you never ask a question when you don't know the answer.

[Zena Kada]

Yes, that's true.

[Marcus Thompson]

You just don't. You do not. Yeah, that was one of the things where it's like, oh, that it was. That moment in between was so vulnerable. It's like, I have no idea what's coming now.

[Zena Kada]

Right. It was. The pregnant pause was there, and you were like, one. The question. Let's not even get to. Let's pause on what Monica said first. In response to that. The question was, who has done more for First Take than the wnba? And what I love that you just said, Marcus, is understanding that this is about platforming women. And what. When you say that, I'm particularly thinking about. This isn't about brownie points. No one came to watch first take to tell you, like, you know, tell first take, hey, great job about, you know, covering the WNBA for however you have for the last however many years you've been running. This was about a conversation with Monica McNutt to allow her to speak from her perspective on what happened in the WNBA and the fact that that was your last point. Essentially, your last question was, well, who's done more for the league than I have? And it's like, it comes to this conversation of this problem when talking about women's sports, but particularly women's basketball, is this need to center men? It's a very weird phenomenon that I'm seeing, and I wanted to ask, you.

[Marcus Thompson]

Know, I don't see nothing wrong with it. What you mean? I'm sorry, you don't want to put me on the pie?

[Zena Kada]

This is what I want to ask you because I do feel like you have perspective. Like, you know, you just said you love women's basketball. I know you love women's basketball. We have women's basketball conversations all the time. And you have a respect for women's basketball that isn't just on the pro level. It's at the college level. I mean, you've known some of these players that were in those generations of great players since they were in high school, and you've seen them and remember their stories and all the above. So there is a level of respect in this space for you. And you have the media mind. Why is it that when discussing the WNBA specifically, is there a need it feels for. For particularly the men, is there a need for denigrating the women in the league in some way, Calling them petty, calling them hateful, calling them jealous, calling them whatever, calling them rough, calling them bullies, calling them whatever you want, or making it about them being like, well, I'm an ally. I help out. I cover this space. I'm in this space. I know this space. I don't understand where that comes from. And I'm wondering from a media perspective, what are you saying?

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, I mean, I could tell you as a man where it comes from. Like, well, we know y'all. We. We want. We want our credit, man. Like, what you mean? Like, we want our credit. And. And especially I think in the conversation, allies can be labeled, you know, enemies. And you want to say, nah, man, Like, I'm with you. Like, I'm not. I'm not in the same vein as, you know, the people who've been on the ground. But, like, yeah, you can count on me. I've done. I've done this, I've done that. And it just. You don't want to be lumped in with this, with the people who've been, like, denigrating the sport forever. I just feel like. And maybe because, like, I have a daughter and I've got so much training at this, like, what I feel don't even matter anyway. Like, I just gotta. I just gotta eat that because it's not about me, right? Yeah. And I. I just translated to, like, I mean, here. Here we go. I mean, I have no other story, but this is how I unders. This is my perspective when I was covering the warriors for, like, a decade, and then they blew up, and then all of a sudden, I was like, the guy. So it's like, it was my time, you know what I'm saying? Like, and I had put in all the work, and it felt very natural and fair and. And in my mind, in many ways, like, overdue. Like, yo. Like, I. I've been nice. Like, I've been putting in the work. And then they blew up. So now, yeah, I felt like it was fair that my voice was one of the voices that got amplified. So to me, it would just be, like, wild hypocritical to turn around and then be like, yeah. Also on this new movement, my voice should be like, yeah, Nabi, I was covering the work, right?

[Zena Kada]

You were over here. I wasn't.

[Marcus Thompson]

I was reading other people, like, about my teams. But so I do think that's part of it. You don't want to be seen as, like, there's a very strong anti women's basketball sentiment, and it does hurt to be linked with that. So there's a natural response to be like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm an ally. Let me tell you what I've done.

[Zena Kada]

Sure, sure.

[Marcus Thompson]

And I Do feel like we just kind of got to eat that? Like, yeah, you just kind of got to eat that. I've written articles where people are like, oh, he's jumping in. And I. I want to say, man, I'll be covering basketball, women's basketball, probably before you were born. But you know what? Whatever. Like, it's still right to say so. Like, I'll just eat that. And I feel like because of our space and our prominence in the field, like, we have the capacity to just eat it. Like, to just say. I mean, and in that case, like, if I'm Stephen A. And I'm advising him, I'm like, just eat it, bro. You're Stephen A. Smith. Like, you don't have to win right there. Like, this is the time for Monica to win. That would be my advice to. To him in that situation. I think part of the difficulty of why this is so hard and it's gonna hurt you. Zina, as a. As a. As a Hooper, is I just think a lot of people don't see this as real hoop. I really. I really don't. And that's been. As a basketball fan, I hate that.

[Zena Kada]

I think you're right.

[Marcus Thompson]

Frustrating part about the whole thing.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, it's. It's been. If you've been watching basketball, like, women's basketball, especially for as long as I have, like, it's hard to walk away from this and not know, like, these is real ballers. Like, these are real hoopers. I'm not talking about, like, real hoopers for women.

[Zena Kada]

Right, Right. Period.

[Marcus Thompson]

Talking about.

[Zena Kada]

Period.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, these are, like, they're. I mean, I remember, like, Don Stalin them. That was the commercial where they were going to. This is, like, in the 90s. They were going to the hoop courts and playing against the men. Like, it was. The point was, like, they're ballers, too. Like, you could not watch Dawn Staley back then and think, no, like, there are Hoopers. And then there's this other level for women who's like, nah. But so the translation of the mindset don't really apply to them, because if you saw. I mean, first off, nobody knows who Kennedy Carter is. Right. But if you knew Kennedy Carter, you know, like, Kennedy Carter is a Hooper.

[Zena Kada]

A dog.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, like, yes. Like, Kennedy Carter is Patrick Beverly.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

You know what I'm saying? Like, like, she's. She's a Hooper, and she a little wild. Is she off the chains? You know what I'm saying? And she turned up quick. Right, Right. Which is the problem. Which is why she was Outside. But you can't watch Kennedy Carter play, not know like she's a Hooper. So when you see what she does, it don't fall in the line of response to a Hooper. It falls in line to responsive. Whatever. You think this. And to me, I think that's the problem. Like we. And it's. And if you're not seeing it as that now it's about the story lines and about the other stuff, right? About the, you know, like we're not talking about like actual hoop. Because to me, I mean like obviously it's a flavor foul facts. It's, it's something you, you would say, hey man, Kenny, what are you doing? Like, why are you doing that?

[Zena Kada]

Right?

[Marcus Thompson]

But the idea that a player would do that is not insane, right? Like it's literally a part of basketball.

[Zena Kada]

Right. As if we have not seen players in all capacities lose their cool and make dumb.

[Marcus Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Zena Kada]

As if we've got football players step on the heads of other players while they're on the ground. As if we've not.

[Marcus Thompson]

It's a part of the sport to lose your cool.

[Zena Kada]

It's part of the excite statement to see it and then have them come to your hometown and boo them and like have that rivalry and have that. And I mean I tweeted this and I was talking about how the WNBA has not been afforded the nuance that particularly the NBA has. And I think the NBA is the main sport I'm going to look at. Because it's the same game, right? Yes, in a way. But it's the same game and this, the same level of competition and, and hot headedness and people losing their cool and people messing up and making mistakes.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, and sending mess.

[Zena Kada]

This too. Like, like, yeah, strategy, all of that stuff on the Internet, the back and forth. Like it happens and yet no one's indicting the entire league to say that. Oh, you know what? Because Draymond Green did that to Sabonus and he did that to Rudy Gobert. Black American players in the NBA must hate international players. That's a thing. Because of that. Like no, no, no, no. That was a Draymond Green situation and we've all moved on to go.

[Marcus Thompson]

You know, here's what I will say about that. I do think that conversation happens in the NBA too. I just think we also get the other one.

[Zena Kada]

That's what I'm saying. Like we moved on.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah. I do feel like there's a segment to me this is a little bit of. And it's weird because again, like I I've been on this for most of my life. Right. Like, I've been, I've been, I've been watching, like, people don't understand, like, in the Bay, Stanford women's basketball is. It is, is elite. Right? Like this, this is what we've been doing since I was in high school.

[Zena Kada]

Right.

[Marcus Thompson]

So to watch, like, now everybody paying attention to the sport, like, it's like one of those things you kind of always wanted, but then it's one of those things where it's like, this is what, this is the part that you want. Yeah. Like, this is the result. And people got to learn the sport, they got to learn the players and. But I think the difficulty is you only get this. Like, you can't like, tap out now and just say, you know what? I just want to go read about, like, what's making Connecticut's defense so, like, dominant this year, or I just want to read a piece like, with the, the most underrated players. Like, you're not getting that part with the wnb. You're just getting the kind of like, salacious, casual fan storyline. So to me, that's the difficulty and that's part of, like, being a big time league. Like, you're getting all these people in the sport who ain't really here for the sport. They're here for the personalities.

[Zena Kada]

Sure.

[Marcus Thompson]

But we also need to have people, like, content for the people who are just here for the sport. Like, who want it.

[Zena Kada]

Like.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like we should now understand, like, who Kennedy Carter is. Like, we should be. We should have.

[Pat McAfee]

There should be.

[Zena Kada]

Yes. Some more context.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yes, yes. We should be like, all right, she did that. Yeah. And plus, like, she's a Hooper. Right. So. And this is the part, this is the part I push back on this idea that a superstar coming to the league. If you think these are real Hoopers, you already know it's gonna be some, like, not superstar player who feel like they should be a superstar who, like, yeah, no, I'm better than her. Right. And if you were like, to make a list of the players. Yeah, absolutely. It's 1,000%. I mean, they used to do it to Steph. Like, are we better than this dude? Like, that was the whole thing. We're better than him. He's not that good. Let me show you. While he's not that good, like, it's the same thing happened. And if you were to make a list of the players in the WNBA who would take that mindset and, you know, this game, you know, Kennedy Carter up on my list, she's already put that out there because she is super talented. Like, she's really good. She's a really good player, and she showed that she should. She should be a better player than what her name is. But it's the other stuff that's keeping her from it. But if there's anybody who's like, yeah, nah, here's a great comp for her. She just hasn't done it. She reminds me of Westbrook, the way she played. Super athlete, super aggressive, like, kind of like, I'm on you, like, that type of way. She hasn't had, like, success. Yeah. But it's that same type of, like, style of play. So I feel like in the normal setting, yeah, we get all this craziness, but we would also get game breakdowns.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, why did the matchup work well for Kennedy? Like, what is this message being sent? And. And maybe he. This is the game plan against Caitlyn Clark now. Like, it's the same game plan against any young guards. Like, yeah, you rough them up, you get physical with them, you trap them. Like, that's. That's a game plan. Now, how does she overcome that? To me, like, it's all basketball, but when you don't think this is, like, real hoop.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

Or like, now just more of, like, a tribalistic social commentary, which.

[Zena Kada]

Which is so frustrating.

[Marcus Thompson]

I don't really want no part of that. No.

[Zena Kada]

But it's so frustrating because now, even when you try to talk about the sport in a very normal sense, other things get attributed to it. I'll give you a perfect example. Michael Harriot, someone that covers a lot of different things, news pieces.

[Marcus Thompson]

One of my favorite writers, by the way.

[Zena Kada]

Love him as a writer. He has amazing threads on Twitter. He had a thread this morning, actually, in the midst of all this going on.

[Marcus Thompson]

Oh, he got a new thread.

[Zena Kada]

Oh, yeah, he had a really interesting thread. It was about rookies, other rookies that may be going or may have gone through what Caitlin Clark is going through in terms of being fouled a lot or quote unquote, being bullied, but really just being played, tough against. Because she is a star and she is a star player for the Indiana Fever. And the main point of attention for that team, he looked up the top in the NBA and wnba, top free throws attempted in rookie history. And if you look at that top 10 list, he has it in the thread. It's like all of these amazing players who have gone on to be hall of Famers, but there's two names or two things that he noticed Number one. Bill Russell is not on that list. Weird. I think Will Chamberlain was, like, number one. But, like, those type of names were on the list, but Bill Russell is not on that list. And then there's this other guy named Ray Felix that's on this. Do you know who Ray Felix is?

[Marcus Thompson]

Oh, yeah, I know that name.

[Zena Kada]

Okay, so 1953, back in the day, right before Bill Russell joined the NBA.

[Marcus Thompson]

I mean, I did. I did write a book on basketball history, so, you know, it's called Dynasties and.

[Zena Kada]

Plug yourself. Go ahead. My bad.

[Marcus Thompson]

No, you're good. You good, you're good.

[Zena Kada]

But he asked that question of, like, what. What. What's going on here? Like, why there's Shaq on there, there's Kobe on there. There's all these guys that were amazing. What was hilarious, he was like, it's just a list of, like, amazing basketball players that were. And Dwight Howard. But his words, not mine.

[Marcus Thompson]

So, so funny.

[Zena Kada]

But he. He talks about the history of, like, the Hacker Shack, the Jordan rules, like, all of these different things. And I retweeted it. I thought it was a really good thread. It was a great history lesson. I didn't know who Ray Felix was. I. I recommend you guys go read up on it or whatever, but basically they were saying that when stars, generational stars came into the NBA, the whole concept was to quote, beat them up in a basketball.

[Marcus Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Zena Kada]

Since, like.

[Marcus Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Zena Kada]

Whoa. You're thinking from a basketball perspective, a normal basketball appreciate, like, appreciation. Perspective. In my mind, as a person who played and a person that appreciates the sport, when I hear beat them up, I hear nothing emotional. I hear nothing personal. I don't hear anything that is vindictive. I just hear, play them hard.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, basketball strategy.

[Zena Kada]

Strategy. Make it tough on them. My college point guard was like that. Someone responded to me and was like, I disagree with this whole thread because it indicates this premise that WNBA players are trying to beat up Caitlin Clark. And I said to her, and I was like, I get what you mean. Like, I get what you mean. I can see why you said that. But this is the problem, that this discourse has gone so far that we can't even use typical terms like beat them up on the court without it becoming something like, we're actually trying to physically harm another player. Right. And it's because of what you're saying, there's no depth to the coverage. We're not saying beat them up and reading concepts that understand and break down the Jordan rules. We're just hearing, oh, they're trying to beat her up like fighter in the streets. And that's just not what's happening here.

[Marcus Thompson]

And that. That brings in the. The cultural dynamics and, you know, all the other American elements.

[Zena Kada]

This was someone that would have been of the culture that you would have imagined. You know, this is someone that is a basketball fan that said that. And I was just like, I mean.

[Marcus Thompson]

The Detroit Pistons entire legacy is this. Exactly. But that's the thing. Like, we've heard this narrative on the NBA side for years by the league is soft. And, yeah, you can't do anything anymore. Right. And there's like this glory to the physicality of it. But I don't understand why on the women's side it would be this kind of like things like where people are calling it a song.

[Zena Kada]

This is what I'm saying. There is this level of emotionality that is inserted into the women's game that is just not in the. In the men's game. And it's very strange. But now let's. Let's continue, finishing up the first take conversation. The answer after the pregnant pause from Monica McNutt was respectfully. I'm going to paraphrase respectfully. With the platform that you've had, you could have been doing much more in the last three years.

[Marcus Thompson]

You could have been doing this three years ago.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah, you could have been doing this three years ago. That's what Monica said to Stephen A. Which resulted in the best face I've ever seen. Molly Karen make a surprise shock, a silence from Stephen A. And then followed by a wow. And you know, guys, when you are going in on someone and someone just goes, wow, you're either guilty of the thing or you have no response.

[Marcus Thompson]

You just have, yeah, you got no response.

[Zena Kada]

You can say, no, I won't say what.

[Marcus Thompson]

That's what happens when you ask a question you don't know the answer to. Wow.

[Zena Kada]

You gotta be prepared. And she stood ten toes down on that. And it's true. And this is what you were saying earlier, Marcus, of like, it's not my time. And I gotta know, you know, if I put in the work or not, it would. It's a disservice to yourself as a media personnel, as a media outlet for you to say you've been covering the WNBA the same level that you've been covering it now. And that's for. That's not just Stephen A. That's a lot of people. And that's okay. It is. There's no shame in being like, yeah, I didn't talk about the WNBA for A while. And I'm talking about it.

[Marcus Thompson]

Oh, yeah, but just like anybody saying.

[Zena Kada]

You know, like, there's no shame in that, but it was just crazy that he stood ten toes down on it and was like, monica, you've respectfully. You've missed a lot of episodes of First Take. And now I'm like, well, pull. Pull the receipts.

[Marcus Thompson]

I'm just like. To me, it's just like. But Monica's like a player and somebody who's been covering it. So, like, if she's saying, like, this is not like some regular person. Like, if she's saying it, like, if she got me looking at my receipts, you know what I'm saying? Like, man, I. I could have covered it more. You know what I'm saying? I could have taken more time.

[Zena Kada]

Right?

[Marcus Thompson]

And you know what? To be honest with you, and I think I've talked to you about this before. Like, it is difficult and, and perhaps, you know, like, it's. It's. There's a part of you that wants to. To, like, cover it, but then there's the other part that's like. Like, now I'm just taking shine from other people.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah, that's a real thing.

[Marcus Thompson]

That's the real thing. Like, because the truth is, like, when. When you cover the NBA and you got, like, a little shine on your name, like, it's easier to get interviews. It's easier to get access. People are happy you coming. You know what I'm saying? And for the people who's been, you know, on the grind, it does feel a little unfair for me to swoop in and. You know what I'm saying? Right? This piece. And everybody's like, oh, look at this. PC wrote, right.

[Zena Kada]

You know, so especially if you're a man and you're. And you're talking about.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, it's a. You know, we all just need to. We all just need to be listening and paying attention. You know what I'm saying? And, like, figuring out, like, how we. How. How do we move forward? Like, how do we do this? Real. My start would be like, we need to talk about basketball. Like, we at least need to have a place to go to talk about, like, hoop. Because it's pretty riveted hoop, man. Like that. That's the. That's the point. And if you thought Caitlin Clark was just like, incredible talent and superstar who's going to take over the league, and she is incredible, the difficulty she's having shows you how good the league is. Like, it wasn't. She wasn't Just about to walk in and like, yeah, right. Like that. But. But it just shows you. And she's really good, but she's not the only really good player. It's a lot of really good player. To me, I just feel like that's the space we need to be in.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

And if.

[Marcus Thompson]

And if people want to call us out for not covering it, like, I'd say just eat it, man. Like, just eat it. Because, like, yeah, we. We got reasons, we got explanations. And the truth is, there's never been more interest in it than that.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

And now there's validation right now, writing about it, talking about it. You get a reward in a sense, whereas before, you perhaps didn't. So, yeah, there are many of us who had a platform, who could have, you know, done our pro bono work or whatever and, like, dedicated ourselves to blowing up the sport. But if Stephen A. Said, listen, man, I was trying to become the number one show on tv, I had to do what I had to do. Like, I think people would understand that.

[Zena Kada]

I would have respected that. It was just the fact that just, you know, him, and I think he represented a lot of people that are kind of gaslighting people who have been in this work for a very long time of, like, oh, we. Of course we knew. We've been known. We've talked about this. Like, no, I'm a person. I. Me, host of the women's basketball show, can tell you I didn't start watching WNBA until, like, more recently. Like, in the last four years. I would say in the last two years is when I started really knowing names and getting to know these personalities and things that sort. Because I was finally finding content that actually went in depth on these teams and these people.

[Marcus Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Zena Kada]

You know, and that's why I have this show to be a safe space for people to learn, because I understand that even someone like me, who played the cooler.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah.

[Zena Kada]

Still didn't have the access and the. The. The resources and also maybe the brain, like, the capacity. Like, I knew I would have to do extra work to find WNBA content when I was younger, and I was just kind of like, oh, yeah, it's.

[Marcus Thompson]

It's. It's. It was. It's been the most frustrating part about being a WNBA fan, because when I say fan, like, I was. I was a massive Tina Thompson fan. Like, huge.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, you know them, like, the comments. I didn't miss a Comets game. Like, that's. You just didn't miss a Comets. Like, that's how it was. You didn't miss the Sparks game. Like. And that's the other thing people talk about. Horror files. Need to go watch Lauren Jackson. Laura Jackson, Australia, she came over with. Yeah, Laura Jackson was a savage of hers.

[Zena Kada]

I mean.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, I mean, it was.

[Zena Kada]

It was a defensive highlight.

[Marcus Thompson]

It was definitely more. It was more physical. I'd be interested to hear what somebody like Leticia Pinachero would say, you know, who played point guard, who, you know was a part of a championship team, who played with some people who, like, would not let Tisha, like, Yolanda Griffith was not letting teacher finisher. Okay. Handled like, you know what I'm saying? Like young Rebecca Brunson. Right? Like, but. But, like, the most difficult part is being a fan and being invested and not having a place to go to get what you want to need, what you want to know. Whereas on the NBA side, you can get whatever you need or NFL, like, there's this abundance, but it's like, yo, if I wanna. If I want to find out what's going on with. With the Phoenix Mercury, like, it. It's tough to get the inside, you.

[Zena Kada]

Know, his first take, and then here we are. That's what you. Yeah, that.

[Marcus Thompson]

That. That's the part that I feel like we can get right. Like, right now, the moment is here. We could get that right. We could make a. We could make it so people who are fans of the basketball can go, right, Like. Like, Copper is now cooking with the Mercury. Right? You got. You got Tarasi and, you know, and BG is coming at some point. Like, like, how is this going to shape up? Like, who are the real. For? Like, there are all kind of story lines and stuff we can talk about. We could get going, you know? You know, I mean, like, Andrew Reese is a massive star. Like, somebody break it down.

[Zena Kada]

We talked about that today.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, I want. I want. I mean, that's another thing right there. Kennedy Carter, the Cardosa had an incredible, like, symbiosis off the bat. That was the most playmaking I've seen from Kennedy in a long time. So it was like, hey, what do they have? Does she start now because of it? Like, eventually, obviously, Camilla's gonna start like.

[Zena Kada]

Like in a Commissioner's cup game final, like, last few minutes of a game Weatherspoon had her in. So I feel like that Angel Reese Cardoso combination is going to be. We just talked about that with Sabrina Merchant.

[Marcus Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah.

[Zena Kada]

No, it's. It's gonna be. It's gonna be interesting how many outlets realize what you're saying and take advantage of the fact that this. Right. I mean, we have spoken for 38 minutes, and we haven't even addressed the B word. I'm not gonna go. And you guys can't see my face right now, but my eyes are wide open. I.

[Marcus Thompson]

That's just wild.

[Zena Kada]

It's just. I can't. I don't even know. We can't go another 40 minutes. But we do have to address this. Okay. On the same morning, this first take debacle, a tweet went out. I'm. I didn't see it in live, but I just saw the video cut. So I don't. I actually don't know if it was from his show today, but all I know is that Pat McAfee's podcast and show that shows up on ESPN, Pat McAfee, for context, joined ESPN last year, had a $17 million contract. I don't know if this is true for, like, fact, in terms of like, 17. Oh, yeah, 17 million. Now, it was reported that his fiscal allocation resulted in the firings of several journalists. That is not confirmed, but it was. It was aligned that several people of note left ESPN as this at the same time that Pat McAfee joined ESPN. And a lot of the people that left their opinions on, you know, their level of journalism was a little bit more. What's the word? Elevated.

[Marcus Thompson]

Traditional.

[Zena Kada]

Traditional. Than what you typically see on Pat McAfee Show. Now, don't get me wrong. I. I mean, I don't. I still have to think about my. My fandom right now of that show, but up until today, I love the Pat McAfee Show. I think it's hilarious. It's unhinged, folks. That boy is crazy.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah. It's a good time.

[Zena Kada]

It's a good time. He is hanging with his friends. He is bringing in guests. He is funny. Okay.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah. He gets great guests.

[Zena Kada]

And what I also appreciated about Pat McAfee up until this moment is the humility that we were just talking about. He has had for the W. He has out loud tweeted. You can't say out loud, but, you know, out in the.

[Marcus Thompson]

The Twitterverse and the experts, was it all cap? Okay.

[Zena Kada]

But he. He was out there and said after the Fever played the Liberty, he was absolutely astonished by how good the New York Liberty were. And he was just like, is there a team better than this team? And the ex, you know, universe of Twitter. Yeah. Have you heard of the Aces?

[Marcus Thompson]

Can I raise my hand and say A.J. wilson?

[Zena Kada]

Right? Exactly. Exactly. So. But I appreciated just. I don't know how his naivety was so Genuine. And he didn't perform as if he knew everything about the wnba. And I appreciated that way more than anyone who does the opposite. And so he started picking up the conversation around the W on his show. Well, the tweet that was sent out this morning, the clip of his show, was him actually advocating this was a positive segment in his show. And it was.

[Marcus Thompson]

That makes it more wild, which is.

[Zena Kada]

What makes it more incredible. Incredible. It was, guess which WNBA rookie. And what was interesting, I believe that the background of the clip was basically a picture of Brianna Stewart, Sabrina Unescu, Caitlin Clark, and, like, one more person, one. Not all rookies.

[Marcus Thompson]

Wait, they weren't rookies?

[Zena Kada]

Yeah, they weren't all rookies, but I think they were trying to do like a. Basically like a guess which of these people as a rookie did this thing. And. Yeah, so either way, he. He has this little sec. He has a segment. Oh, Taurasi was the. Yeah, okay. So he. He was talking about Kelsey Plum, and basically, I mean, let's put it out there, all white women in the league. There were other rookies of this class he could have mentioned. You know, the top 10 in itself had other people than Caitlin Clark that are performing well, like in Angel Reese and Cameron Brink and Ricky Jackson, and the list goes on. But anyways, as he is talking about this class, he goes, I would like media people that continue to say, this rookie class. This rookie class. This rookie class. Nah, let's just call it for what it is. There's one white bitch for the Indiana team who is a superstar. Yes. I just said it. I said it out loud.

[Marcus Thompson]

Okay. I can't believe you said it.

[Zena Kada]

I had to. I had to quote it for what it was, because I'm gonna tell you right now, Marcus, I called my mom and I told her what happened. My mother lives in France, folks. She also has an accent. And I said it to her quickly. And she goes, okay. And she didn't catch it. And then I had to say it again to her. I was like, no, ma. Ma. Mom, he said that one white bee out of Indiana, I kid you not. My mom goes, bitch. Oh, oh, la la. And the friends.

[Marcus Thompson]

She made it sound so elegant.

[Zena Kada]

And I was like, yeah, mom, that. That's what he said. Now, for the record, Pat McAfee has issued an apology. But you could tell he was very comfortable. Very, very, very comfortable with his voice.

[Marcus Thompson]

I mean, don't you gotta be to say that? Yeah, gotta be to say that, like.

[Zena Kada]

And it was still just. I could not wrap my mind around in what World, would you ever, ever think it is okay to refer to a pro athlete you are covering? Really? Let's start as a woman, right? Like a man calling a woman a B word. But let's remove that. Maybe you don't care about that. All right? Let's not even put those type of moral contingencies on it. And let's just talk about it from a media perspective. You are saying that one white bee out of Indiana is a superstar on national television talking to a room full of men on they All Laughed. Marcus, I don't know where to start.

[Marcus Thompson]

I'll start by saying I just don't believe it's ever appropriate, ever. It's just never appropriate. Like, it's not appropriate off the air. It's not appropriate on the air. And I understand in private conversations, people get inappropriate. Like, I got that. If you just talking to his homies, whatever. But, I mean, especially considering that's the part that I think can't get lost in all this. Like, this is the moment for women and women's basketball. Like, let's honor that, Right? Let's honor that and not be derogatory. I mean, we have our moments. Our moment will be right back when NFL start. Our moment will be right back with an NBA final start. Like, it's all good. Like, we will be fine. Like, just let them cook. And the inability for us to just do that is a little bit wild. Like, I mean, the crazy part is, like, he's doing this to be supportive, right? He's doing this essentially to claim her as one of, like, his own. Like, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the sense of, like, yeah, one of ours is up here. Yeah, that's what it is.

[Zena Kada]

A really great player. We're lucky to have her here in Indiana.

[Marcus Thompson]

The problem is it feeds into, like, issues that has prevented women's basketball from getting to this level in the first place. Like, this is just not a time. There is no. No time, but especially now, to not be disparaging, to just not play up stereotypes, to not. Like, we could do that, though, but we can do that and that and that. And that goes back to one of the reasons I do think Stephen A. Was so defensive, because that's a very normal thing, how people talk about it. And we've heard this forever. Lower the courts, like, so you could dunk. And.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, all this stuff, like, you've heard it forever, where it's just. There's this inferiority, and it's like, can we just not do that, like, right now, like, right now, let's just let, like, let this moment excel. You know what I'm saying? Like, let it. Let it live and breathe without the interference of the same things that we've allowed to hold it back for so long. Like, that's just not appropriate. And look, Caitlyn needs. You know, I ain't speaking for Caitlin Clark. Like, I don't know her.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

If she came out and been like, yeah, that's my dog. Like, all right, that's her choice. Like, I don't know Marcus Thompson. That's just. It's just not appropriate. It's not. It's not a good place for us to be in. We shouldn't be doing that. And also, it just dishonors this moment. And I'm talking about Pat McAfee as somebody who is clearly into this moment. Right? Like, he courtside. You know what I'm saying? Like, he is thing. Like. Like, let's not, like, let, like, we. We have this opportunity to not, like, because of people's, like, enjoyment of Caitlin Clark. To, like, let people see how, like, good it is. Like, let people see how much talent is, like, so now I feel like if. If Pat McAfee wanted to. Instead of, like, saying stuff like that, he could be like, let me show you. Let me introduce you to another player who you don't know is nice that everybody think is not. You know what I'm saying? Like, but they have a moment. It's. Right now. It's a. The summer. Like, it's the reason. This is the time the NB WNBA season is happening. Right? Like, this is all choreographed. This is 20 plus years in the making of trying to find a lightning in a bottle to happen right now. Now it's here. Like, let's let us. I'm not gonna be the one getting in the way. Facts.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, I'm not gonna be the one getting in the way. I'm like, y'all. Y'all. Y'all. Do y'all go ahead and shine. Yeah. However, we could be supportive. And I think he was trying to be supportive, but, like, it's just a wild thing to say that.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah.

[Marcus Thompson]

Like, if I was. If it was a black man and she was a black woman, like, it would be. I would have the same reaction. Oh, that's. That black be like, what? What?

[Zena Kada]

Oh, God, no.

[Marcus Thompson]

That would be. That would be insane. And that's not my culture. Right. They clearly are talking in a culture that's theirs. Right?

[Zena Kada]

Sure.

[Marcus Thompson]

That's not my culture. So I'm not. I don't know, like, if that's cool in their culture. That's cool in a culture. But I know in our culture, if we was to say that, like, whoever said that would rightly be condemned because.

[Zena Kada]

It would have been canceled last year.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zena Kada]

For you.

[Marcus Thompson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you know, Caitlyn, Caitlyn, you know, she'll say whatever she's got to say. I. I don't want to get into the chorus of, like, this damsel in distressed ideology with Caitlin Clark. Like, she's a Hooper. I think she'll be fine. She gonna deal with it all. She don't need. She don't. She don't need people putting on capes to come save her, to say, this ain't that. But if you're Pat McAfee, like, that's not what the sport needs right now. Like, it's just. I don't think it's ever appropriate. But come on, right now, in the moment, like, come on, man.

[Zena Kada]

And what. And it's important for context, right? Because everyone's going to go with the headlines, but it is important for context to say, like, he wasn't. In a way, he was caping for her, but not the players. It was about the refs. He actually specifically said that there's what, what the WNBA currently has is what we like to describe as a cash. There's a superstar referencing Clark. And we're not saying that the players on the court need to act any differently. That's. The athletes are. That's. The athletes are going to do what the athletes are going to do in any sport. I think we're all learning that the wnba, that's old school football, baby. And I actually really respect that take. I really respect that take. And then that's. The issue is just like, all right, give them a step forward. And wow, we just took a thousand step back. Because right after that very statement saying that the athletes don't need to cuddle her or change anything, like, just be who you are and understanding of their value by calling them a cash cow, he follows with that. So I'm truly just like, I don't know what to say. He has apologized. He did say that his intentions were to be complimentary, but it wasn't that he apologized. He also sent an apology to Caitlyn as well. And he also said, everything else I said, still all facts. So ESPN declined to comment on it. I'm sure they were still trying to. They were still reeling from the Monica McNutt, Stephen A. Smith world wind that there was, but was quite a Monday morning for espn. And we've just spent a full other podcast talking about it. Alrighty. I think I got my thoughts out. Of course, this is a lot of what we need is discourse. We need to be able to have these conversations. We need to be able to tease these things out and be able to call out things for what they are. Because what we're seeing is a lot of people trying to support the wnba, which is so appreciated, which is so, so appreciated. But we also have to call out when it's not being done well, when it's. When mistakes are being made, missteps are being taken. And also be humble enough to realize when you're making a mistake, when you're making a misstep. And for those of you listening, especially after you know this point, call us out. Let us know if there's something you want to hear that we're not covering. If there's anything that you're looking for that, you know, you can't find with our site and our platform, let us know. We want to learn these things, but we appreciate you supporting, we appreciate you listening, we appreciate you continuing to learn this sport because that's what needs to happen. Well, Marcus, I did not expect us to basically talk about this for an hour, but this is why emergency pods exist, because we got to get our thoughts out, because there is a lot going on in the world of women's basketball. And it's always great to have some perspective, especially from quote unquote, outside of the basketball realm, of the women's basketball realm, but still within the basketball realm. And that even feels weird because you're very much still in the women's basketball realm as a fan, more so than you are as a media member, but it's still like getting that perspective as a fan. But someone that is a media member.

[Marcus Thompson]

Is like, yeah, I'm definitely not in the women's basketball realm, though there are people who. Who are in it. In it. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, I like. I love it. Like, I would like to be more part of it, but that's not my job. But I mean, it might be now since we got a team in a bay. I'm about to be on that thing. I'm about to be in there. Let's go, Valkyrie. Let's go.

[Zena Kada]

That's the last time we spoke on this pod was when you broke that news.

[Marcus Thompson]

So, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I'm. I mean, there's just so many people who've been grinding with no reward that I don't. I don't think is right for me to be acting like I'm some kind of women's basketball reporter. Like, sure, sure, sure. I parachute in here and there, you know what I'm saying? I know a few people. I might write a couple things, you know what I'm saying?

[Zena Kada]

But, yeah, I appreciate your humility. I appreciate not only your humility, but also your self awareness, because that is what seems to be missing in the space right now for some people covering the sport, particularly the men. The men. I am gonna. I'm gonna put the same hopefulness that I have around the rookie class in you. It's still early in the game. You know, growth takes some time. Growing pains are pain sometimes, and everything's not gonna be perfect. And hopefully with some time, your game will improve in how you cover this league, how you talk about these women, how you interact with these women, how you interact with other people that are covering this. Been covering this league. Hopefully it will also grow and develop just like these players that we're talking about. All right, Marcus, anything else you got to say to the people?

[Marcus Thompson]

I feel like that's kind of what Monica's greater point was like, because now it's our chance to, like, educate, to kind of, like, reveal, you know what I'm saying? To, like. Like, my thing is covering the NBA, same as wnba, like, to. I love the personalities of the people involved. I love the humanity of them, right? So, like, now we got this. This. We got these ears. Like, it's time to show them, you know what I'm saying? So almost, like, put your best foot forward because, like, it's an opportunity that might not happen again. So I do feel like that's kind of what Monica was getting like, man, we could have been like, imagine if there was this investment three years ago, you know? You know what I'm saying? And now you get to this moment where Caitlyn is here, and now we have a fan base, a new fan base that is a little bit more aware tangentially. Right? Because the conversation is a little different, but now it just feels all so brand new. It feels like everything feels new. Like, yeah, like, you have no idea what you talk about. Okay. Like, you're here for one reason and it's not the reason, but, yeah, now, now, let me. Let me show you how it is. Like, that's what I think was the genesis behind it. Like, now we're having this conversation that we probably shouldn't be having, but gotta have it because, you know, people involved in the conversation don't understand what this really is. Like, this is real hoop. I can't express that enough. This is real hoop. So the same principles apply, the same ideologies apply. Like, it's not. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's a different game, in a sense, but it's still like their. Their ideology, their indoctrination, their understanding, how they compete. Like, it's all the same. They're real Hoopers. Yes. Like, there's just. So we gotta think about them and talk about them as real Hoopers. Right? Like that. That. That's the understanding. That's why I think this is even all unfair to Caitlyn. I feel like Kaylin is a real Hooper. She don't need y'all. She don't need all this baby in the pampering. She'll need nobody whining for her. As a matter of fact, everybody has to go through this. And this is kind of the test. And when you get through it, you'll be able to say, yeah, I survived the gauntlet, but if there's no gauntlet now, you know what I'm saying? Like, if she don't have to go through it, she ain't gonna be able to poke her chest out at the end. Be like, yeah, I dealt with it all, literally.

[Zena Kada]

Because if she does get babied, if she does get coddled, she is now losing the respect on her credibility.

[Marcus Thompson]

Absolutely.

[Zena Kada]

Credibility. You are doing her a disservice by calling out these players, being jealous, and they're trying to hurt her, and they need to calm down. You are doing her disservice. I could go on another whole tangential podcast, but we will not do that. I'm gonna let you have a mic drop moment because that is a perfect, perfect way to sum up what Monica McNaught was trying to say and what the lessons that need to be learned in both of these circumstances that we talked about today. I'm very, very hopeful that this will improve. And we here at the Athletic are going to continue to try to be conduits to improve the conversation, improve the ecosystem in which these women are covered. And, you know, you can always find a safe space to talk about women's basketball here with us. So appreciate all of you tuning in again. Appreciate all of you tuning in today again. Hit that subscribe button on our show. Leave us comments if there's anything you want us to cover. If you have questions for our writers and or if you want to hear from more of our writers that were within this sphere and see what their thoughts are, I'm sure they have very different perspectives and different insights from all the different sports they cover as well. So for now, or Marcus Thompson for the Athletic, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for your ear and encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning, and of course, keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. All right guys, until next time.

[Marcus Thompson]

As.

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[Marcus Thompson]

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[Pat McAfee]

Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige Desorbo. I'm Hannah Burner. Welcome to the Squad. Giggly Squad started on Summerhouse when we were giggling during an inappropriate time. But of course we can't be managed. So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Marcus Thompson]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.