End of an era for the Pac-12

Summary

**Podcast Summary: "End of an Era for the Pac-12"
Podcast: No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Hosts: Zena Keita, Chantel Jennings, Sabreena Merchant, Ben Pickman
Release Date: March 12, 2024

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Introduction

In the episode titled "End of an Era for the Pac-12," the hosts of No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show, primarily Zena Keita and Sabrina Merchant, delve deep into the concluding chapter of the Pac-12 Conference's involvement in women's basketball. This farewell tour signifies significant changes in the collegiate landscape, and the hosts provide comprehensive insights into its implications for the teams and the broader NCAA landscape.

Farewell Tour: The Last Pac-12 Tournament

[06:02] Sabrina Merchant reflects on her first experience attending a conference tournament, highlighting the competitive spirit and camaraderie among West Coast basketball enthusiasts.

"I've never been to a conference tournament before. I had a great time... just enjoying a really competitive, at times, a little contentious, but super entertaining tournament overall."

[06:21] Zena Keita expresses her emotional response to the Pac-12's departure, recalling the heartfelt montage aired on ESPN.

"I got emotional during the montage that was on ESPN. I was like, I cannot believe this is over."

The hosts analyze USC's recent performance, particularly focusing on star player Juju Watkins and Cameron Brink from Stanford. They discuss USC's strategic gameplay that neutralized Watkins, leading to a surprising team-wide offensive surge despite individual setbacks.

[08:49] Sabrina Merchant provides an in-depth breakdown of USC's tactics against Stanford, emphasizing the team’s resilience despite injuries and defensive pressures.

"USC kind of turned her into a decoy. They put the ball into Mackenzie Forbes' hands... It was just all of this space and freedom of movement for the rest of USC's offensive players."

Zena highlights the evolution of USC beyond relying solely on Watkins, acknowledging the contributions of veterans and the facilitating coaching strategies.

[14:17] Zena Keita

"You have a player in Juju who demands extra attention at all times... but there's so much more to USC than just Juju Watkins."

Bracketology Insights with Mark Schindler

Transitioning to bracketology, Mark Schindler joins the discussion to shed light on the upcoming NCAA Tournament seeding and regional placements.

[37:35] Sabrina Merchant shares a key insight from Schindler about the Pac-12's top seeds being distributed across different regionals to prevent them from clashing early in the tournament.

"If there are four top 16 seeds from the Pac-12, they have to be in different regionals."

[44:11] Mark Schindler explains the complexities involved in seeding, especially when multiple top teams from the same conference are involved.

"You can't have four top seeds in the same region. They have to be spread out, which adds extra wrinkles to the bracket."

The conversation further explores the implications for other conferences like the ACC and SEC, highlighting how these dynamics influence tournament outcomes.

[51:52] Mark Schindler emphasizes the Pac-12's strong performance across the board, asserting its dominance in the NCAA landscape.

"Every single game was really fun. USC's run was just sick... I think that's going to factor in."

Off-Script: SEC Final Controversy

In a candid off-script segment, Zena Keita addresses a contentious incident that occurred during the SEC Championship game between LSU and South Carolina. The altercation involved multiple players and garnered significant media attention, prompting discussions about media portrayal and disciplinary actions.

Key Points Addressed:

1. Incident Breakdown:

   • Malaysia Ful Wylie of LSU initiated the confrontation by shoving Ashlyn Watkins of South Carolina.
   • Camilla Cardoso responded by forcefully shoving Wylie, leading to further chaos as other players got involved.

2. Disciplinary Concerns:

   • Zena Keita argues that both players involved should face equal disciplinary actions based on intent, regardless of physical size or impact.

     "Flauje Johnson started this entire thing by shoving... she apologized, but that doesn't exempt her."

3. Media Representation:

   • Critique of how media outlets like TMZ Sports sensationalized the incident, portraying Camilla Cardoso negatively while downplaying or mischaracterizing Flauje Johnson's actions.

     "They called it a wild fight... but it wasn't as violent as it's being portrayed."

4. Coaching Responses:

   • Dawn Staley of South Carolina exemplified leadership by addressing her team's actions maturely.
   • Conversely, Kim Mulkey of LSU faced criticism for her remarks suggesting Camilla Cardoso should have targeted a different player, undermining accountability.

[68:58] Zena Keita concludes with a call for more nuanced media coverage and accountability within the sport to maintain integrity and growth in women's basketball.

Conclusion

The episode "End of an Era for the Pac-12" offers a comprehensive look into the concluding days of the Pac-12 in women's basketball, the strategies and performances shaping the NCAA Tournament, and the challenges faced in maintaining sportsmanship and accurate media representation. The hosts adeptly balance technical analysis with heartfelt commentary, providing listeners with a thorough understanding of the current state and future directions of women's basketball.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sabrina Merchant [08:49]:
  "USC kind of turned her into a decoy. They put the ball into Mackenzie Forbes' hands... It was just all of this space and freedom of movement for the rest of USC's offensive players."

• Zena Keita [14:17]:
  "You have a player in Juju who demands extra attention at all times... but there's so much more to USC than just Juju Watkins."

• Mark Schindler [37:35]:
  "If there are four top 16 seeds from the Pac-12, they have to be in different regionals."

• Mark Schindler [51:52]:
  "Every single game was really fun. USC's run was just sick... I think that's going to factor in."

• Sabrina Merchant [17:23]:
  "I believe which teams are going to be real contenders... USC is a complete team."

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Note: For a more visual and detailed understanding of bracketology discussed in the episode, listeners are encouraged to visit The Athletic's bracketology piece.

Transcript

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[Zena Keda]

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[Zena Keda]

For the Athletic I'm Zena Keda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Zena K. Here joined by Sabrina Merchant. We're here to talk all things women's basketball. Whether you're a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the game, or you're just a casual fan looking to learn more. Or maybe you saw the craziness of this past weekend's conference tournament action and you want to learn some more, make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your pods to stay up to date with us. Also, subscribe to the Athletic So you don't miss out on year round, in depth coverage of the game. You love. Sabrina, I heard you had a lot of fun in Vegas at the Pac12 tournament also. Really cool location for the Pack12 tournament and a really great send off for the Pac12 tournament. How was it?

[Sabrina Merchant]

It was really, really fun. I've never been to a conference tournament before. I had a great time. Just a bunch of people who love west coast basketball and have the same west coast biases that I do. Just enjoying a really competitive, at times, a little contentious, but super entertaining tournament overall.

[Zena Keda]

That's good. No, I love, I love the word contentious because, you know, that's what happens when you're in competition. That's what happens when you're heated up and you're at this point in the season right before March where everything matters. So before we get started, I want to just go through what we're covering today or what we call the scout. So I want to talk to Sabrina about the Pac12 tournament because it deserves the extra attention. With the Pac12 tournament. This is essentially the last one. This was the last one. This was the farewell tour. I got emotional during the montage that was on espn. I was like, I cannot believe this is over. So we're going to talk a little bit about Pac12. I'm also going to be bringing in Mark Schindler. We're going to talk bracketology because they just did another bracketology release. AP. And so I want to talk what he's thinking about bracketology and where they positioned some teams after some of these conference tournaments ended out this weekend. There's still conference tournament play happening though. Big 12 is finishing up this week. The Big east is having their championship game today of the day that we're recording this on Monday, March 11th. So still a lot of tournament action before the actual big Dance. So don't make sure, I mean, make sure you turn in and tune in and you're closing out these conference tournaments. So first up, Sabrina with the PAC12 and then bracketology with Mark Schindler. And then I'm going to do something I haven't done in a while. I'm going to go off the script. We got to talk about LSU and South Carolina. All right, let's get started. Sabrina. Yesterday's championship game, usc, Stanford, the last time that they faced off, the biggest stat that we remember was 51. And for those of you that don't know what 51 is referring to, it's the amount of points that Juju Watkins dropped against, then ranked number four, Stanford. They won that game, and it was on Stanford's court. And yet since that game, Stanford's been playing really well. Cameron Brink 1's player of the year. Juju Watkins plays rookie of the year. So you're going into this game with all this anticipation of two star power players and their respective teams, but those are the eyes you have, you know, those are the two players that you have your eyes on. Yet yesterday's game was a different story. USC or Stanford did a really good job of neutralizing juju Watkins and what happened.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, so let's, let's take it back a couple days with juju. If you were watching the USC UCLA semifinal on Friday night, the last game for women's basketball ever aired on the PAC 12 network, JuJu Watkins suffers an ankle sprain about 30 seconds into the game, heads out to the tunnel. USC is thinking, okay, let's, let's prepare for what it's going to look like without her for the rest of the game. She comes back, has a phenomenal game against ucla, even though she ends up spraining her ankle again later in the game, same ankle, and that time she's literally crawling on the floor, trying to get up, get back into the game. She ends up finishing. USC wins this dramatic double overtime. So many different plays that made you want to just pull your hair out type of affair, really, just like the very best way to end the Pac12 USC UCLA rivalry there. Although they will both be continuing on to the Big Ten together, which is nice. So you have this context of juju Watkins having played through these ankle sprains. Is she going to be hobbled? You know, she's like riding a scooter around Las Vegas on Saturday, keeping off of that leg, trying to make sure that she's ready to go. And obviously she starts. And then immediately you see every time she touches the ball, like five Stanford players have their eyes on her, right? And that's totally reasonable, Right. She just put up 51 points the last time they played against them. She had another big night against the Bruins. So, you know, this is, this is the number one thing. And so USC kind of turned her into a decoy. Like they put the ball into Mackenzie Forbes hands. They knew that Elena Bozgano was going to be stuck to juju whenever she was on the court, Right. So you're basically playing four on four in the half court, and you have two guards and Mackenzie Forbes and Kayla Padilla, who you're perfectly comfortable with running the offense and, you know, just taking advantage of the extra space created by the fact that Juju's there but not really involved. I guess I don't want to say she wasn't involved because she did everything she needed to. Right? Like, she had the proper spacing to make sure that, you know, Forbes and Patia and the Bigs could get to their spots. She just wasn't creating any of her own offense. I mean, I think this is the first game all season that JuJu Watkins scored in single digits in points. So you think about that. She scored 51 the first time and nine this time. Uh, she went 2 of 15 from the field. Like, the jumper was just not working. I have to believe that was part of a ankle situation because Juju just doesn't shoot that poorly like we've talked about, you know, like the, the six of 26 games. But, like, even then she ends up getting to the line enough to where, like, the point totals add up. They just did not add up on Sunday. So you'd think, okay, juju Watkins only scores nine points. Where is USC getting the offense from? And really, that wasn't even the problem. The offense came so easily for USC against Stanford. And I think it was interesting to watch the difference between their first two games against Arizona and UCLA compared to their third game against Stanford, because Arizona and UCLA are very high pressure, get right up into the grill of the ball handler type teams like Mackenzie Forbes said, like, she couldn't really breathe against those two teams, right? Like, she would try to catch the ball and have to work so hard just to, like, get, you know, around a screen or, you know, just create even the slightest amount of space from her defender. And she said, well, it's kind of nice against, like, Stanford where I could just sort of like, flow into the elbow. And like, no one was right on top of me. Like, they were kind of sagging and, you know, keeping an eye on Drew at all times. And it's, it's interesting, you know, like you, you have to pick your poison with usc, right? Like, do you want to let juju Watkins be Juju Watkins, or are you gonna say, hey, like, everyone else is gonna have to beat us and we're take care of her. And Stanford had the experience of letting Juju Watkins beat them, right? She scored 51 out of the 67 points USC scored the first time around. I'm going to repeat that. 51 out of 67. So the rest of the team combined for 16 points. Mackenzie Forbes close that on her own today or on Sunday, you know, just 26 of her own. So I think, yeah, it was just interesting to watch, like, USC actually enter this offensive flow that we hadn't seen from them earlier in the Pac12 tournament. Like, because of the way Stanford played defense, because they wanted to protect the rim and guard juju and take those two things away. There was just all of this space and freedom of movement for the rest of USC's offensive players. And it's not something we see them able to take advantage of all the time because it's not how they're guarded, right? Like, this was a new setup in terms of what they face, right. Like Lindsey Gottlieb said postgame, like, I was almost concerned, like, were we gonna know what to do, right? Cause it was a defense that we'd never seen before from Stanford. But Forbes just gets into her flow right away. She's hitting the pull up, you know, hitting from distance, finding the bigs. Caitlin Davis is just doing her usual, like, I don't even need to take dribbles. I can just find immediately the next open person and they can shoot. I thought Ray Marshall had a great game. Caleb Padilla hits three threes. Like Kayla Williams, comes in off the bench in the second quarter, has eight quick points, kind of creates this margin that Stanford can never really get back into. It was just a total team performance, which again, you come into the season, you think, like USC we're going to pay attention to them because they have juju Watkins, right? Like, she is singularly talented enough that we have to give this team some credit. And over the course of the season, we're seeing that, oh, there's so much more to USC than just juju Watkins. And these are all players who have been through the ringer again and again. They are old, they're veteran, and they have been through these experiences and they've lost a lot without juju. And now with juju, they get to experience the feeling of winning. And it was just, it was so cool to watch.

[Zena Keda]

That is a wonderful breakdown going back to the game in terms of like that defense that Stanford set up. I really thought that they were overcompensating for what happened with juju last game. The way that Mackenzie Forbe can literally just walk up to the three point line and have a wide open shot. I was like, at least by halfway through her point scoring, I was like, I think this is the time we can start picking her up, folks. This is the time that we can start adjusting the defense and realizing that the supporting cast around juju Watkins is just as lethal as you know, maybe not as individually, but as a supporting cast can be just as lethal as a juju Watkins in terms of being able to put up points, it was surprising that, you know, Tara did not adjust or coach Tara did not. Coach Vandiver did not adjust to that. But either way, it was really fun to see that, you know, juju and the nerds, as Coach Gottlieb called them on our podcast recently, and you talked about them in your piece that you put out this week. The nerds stepped up. And as a former Ivy Leaguer, I was very proud of the way that they showed up. And I want to know, with the supporting cast having shown that capability all season long and it finally being put on display for like the rest of the country really to see because they were tucked away in the PAC12 network, but now that the country is able to see like, oh, Juju's got some people around her, juju's got a cast around her. Do you think that they can be a real life contender in the, in the big dance?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. So I'm going to touch on one thing you said first about being on a national stage. I believe this is the fourth time all season that USC has played a game that a national audience can actually see. They opened the season on TruTV, which I'm going to use national audience and quotes because I don't actually know how many people get TruTV, but that was a national channel. Right. They play their opening game against Ohio State against TruTV. They have one game against Long Beach State during non conference that is available on ESPN Plus. So I think that's more widely available than PAC12 network. But that's. That was the one. And if you recall, I mentioned this in the piece that came up about the nerds, you know, at the Athletic on Monday, Long Beach State, that game, no juju Watkins, no Ray Marshall. So it was, it was a great showcase for Mackenzie Forbes who ends up setting her personal career high in a game that USC wins by eight. But it's not the USC team, you know, like you're accustomed to seeing. Right. This isn't a national showcase for juju Watkins. So those are the two I'm going to again say, quote unquote, national games during the non conference schedule. They get one home game against Arizona on espn. Not the fun one where they like went into double overtime at McHale and it was just a raucous environment. No, no, this was just a regular run of the mill Friday night on ESPN game. And then this was the. Their other ESPN game, like, that's it. So if you wanted to watch USC play basketball and you don't have the Pac 12 network, which I'm not. No judgment. Nobody has the Pac 12 network. You had maybe four chances to watch them play, right? And this is the fourth one. So you didn't even really get to.

[Zena Keda]

See the best of juju in this game, right? So you're really like, really? Is this. Is this the juju everybody's been hyping?

[Sabrina Merchant]

It was funny because USC, you start this game, and Juju Watkins is 13 points shy of setting the single season scoring record for USC to break Cheryl Miller's single season scoring record. And I'm like, preparing a headline. I'm thinking, 13 points. Juju wakes up and eats 13 points for breakfast, right? And the game just goes on and on. I'm thinking, how has this not happened yet? Like, what are we doing?

[Zena Keda]

It's crazy. Yeah. When Coach Vandiver, I think it was halftime, she said that her team was still at the hotel. I was like, well, listen, they might be still at the hotel, but they kept juju Watkins to not breaking that record. I was like, hey, part of them woke up to do that part of the game, at least.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And that's why I understand, like, maybe why they didn't adjust because the plan was working, right? Like, you were holding juju and you can say, like, are we going to stop doing this to juju and let her take over in the second half or hope that the other players fall off? And I understand why you would think maybe it's reasonable that the other players can fall off. Right? So as much as I like, get annoyed watching a game and seeing a team stick to the same game plan, like, if it's being executed properly, like, sometimes another team just makes shots, right? And USC came in and they took that game. And that's why, like, you asked me if I think they're an actual title contender. They are going to get a number one seed, Right? They are the automatic bid out of the Pac 12. They're going to get a number one seed. I believe they're going to be sent to Portland. So they're going to have this at least west coast fan base to draw on when they play in that regional, you know, and that comes after hosting their first two games at Galen center, which the program has literally never hosted tournament games at Galen Center. This is the first time again, the arena only opened in 2009, but still, like, it's been. It's been a minute. So this is A big deal for usc. Big deal for them to get that number one seed. So they're going to have, you know, let's assume a favorable path to the Final four because you know, you face the lowest possible opponents as a 1 seed. But I just think they're so complete, right? Like you have the one player in juju who demands extra attention at all times, right? And if you don't, then she's just going to drive right through you. She's so good at finishing around the rim. She's so good at finishing through contact. She's an excellent foul shooter. I mean she averaged two and a half more free throws per game than any other player in the Pac12 this season. And like she's a guard and there are bigs who again did not average within three free throws of juju Watkins this regular season. And then you have all of this experience, right? Like the, the nerds, the Ivys, the Caitlin Davis, Mackenzie Forbes and Kayla Padilla. They've played in all of these Ivy League conference tournaments. They were the alphas for their teams, right? Like Kayla Padilla is the seventh leading scorer in Penn basketball history and that's after playing only three seasons at Penn, right? Like imagine if she had played a fourth during that Covid year. Like she would be atop all of these pen record books and here she is getting to take five or six shots a game because that's just not her role at usc, right? Like she is the defensive stopper. She's the one who chased around London Jones and handed Jump and you know, held them to a collective like 1 of 16 shooting from three point range over those two games and then still shoots 50% from three on the other end. And then you have Mackenzie Forbes who likes, gets to be sometimes a primary ball handler but not against the best defender, right? Like you put Elena Bozgana and Charisma Osborne on juju Watkins. So that means that Mackenzie Forbes gets to go up against, you know, like Gabriela Hawkes sometimes or Talana Lopolo in this past game. And Hannah Jump had to guard her and that's just a lot easier for her to deal with. And so you have a player who, you know, super confident in creating her own shot and creating for others. And Mackenzie Forbes, you have a knockdown shooter in Kilipadiya, you have a big who can play basically any kind of defense and Caitlin Davis and then Rhea Marshall who's kind of been like the anchor of USC the last three years and actually gone through all of this like rough times to get to this point. I mean, I don't think anybody was happier than her in terms of.

[Zena Keda]

She's like. I used to pray for times like.

[Sabrina Merchant]

This, how this program has grown since then. And, I mean, I talk about bigs in the Pac 12 a lot. And I don't think I ever mentioned Ray Marshall, because you've got Lauren Betts, you've got Cameron Brink and Kiki Riofan and Alyssa Peely and, you know, Reagan beers and where's the room for Ray Marshall and all. All Ram Marshall does is just, you know, pick up double doubles in four of the last five games and block shots like nobody's business and control the glass. I mean, USC out rebounded Stanford by 20 in that game. It was 48 to 28. You don't think of Stanford getting out rebounded, first of all, and then 20. So I just think they're so complete. And then you have a coach like Lindsey Gottlieb, who has been to the Final Four before, you know, took her Cal team there in 2013. I believe she has just this wide variety of experiences at the NBA. She's super creative, you know, can put her players in different positions to succeed. And I just really believe, like, when you have players who have been through so many things, so many experiences where they didn't achieve what they wanted to. Right? Like, the joke is that, you know, Kenzie and Kayla and Katie, they all want to play Princeton because they lived in the Ivy for three to four years and just. I feel y'all never won a conference tournament or regular season.

[Zena Keda]

I feel it myself. Okay.

[Sabrina Merchant]

They never, you know, they never got past Princeton. Right. And so it's like this. This hurdle that's been in front of them, and for them to come together to, like, actually win the rivalry game against ucla, you know, to. To best their crossbound rivals, to best, like, the titans of the PAC 12 that are Stanford. I think it's just very cool to see, like, what they can accomplish together. And it's. It's a very cool moment for Ivy League basketball, too, to be like, hey, like, there are Hoopers there. They just happen to be, like, spread out a little bit. Like, you know, when you. You concentrate some more of the talent, like, look what can happen.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. No, that was so cool to be able to see Mackenzie Forbes just talking with Holly Row after the game, like, how much she's been through, to be able to get to this point. And we're. You know, there's obviously stories behind the scenes of injuries or, you know, just work put in on the court and things of that sort. But Princeton battling with Princeton every single year and finally getting to the point where you're the one cutting down the net. I know that that felt so redeeming for all three of them, really. But super cool that the Ivy Leagues between Gottlieb at Brown, Mackenzie from Harvard, Badia from. And it's pretty cool to be able to see all of them come together. And I'm missing one. Hold on.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Who I think is from Columbia.

[Zena Keda]

Columbia, exactly. I was like, there's one more I'm thinking about. But okay, so they took down UCLA and Stanford, which people would say were on paper supposed to be better teams. Now, seeing that they were able to take them down, what are your thoughts on them producing in the NCAA Tournament and going far?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I still think Stanford is going to be a number one seed. Just the overall body of work, the fact that they were the Pac 12 regular season champions. They've just won so many games. They have the talent. Coach Vanderpier. Like, I think this is going to be a number one seed. I do think that you kind of saw one of the weaknesses of Stanford is that USC is a very athletic team. Like individually, you know, Ram Marshall, Caitlin Davis, super athletic Inside, MacKenzie Forbes, Juju Watkins just loads to deal with physically. And you know, Stanford's very technically sound team and like they run good stuff and it's, it's fun to watch them move in the half court. But I do wonder like, if they're suited to deal with a team that has an athletic advantage like that like USC does. I mean, this is the second time USC's beaten them. Right. It's not like just a one hit fluke when Juju Watkins. So and I think about last year when, you know, Ole Miss was significantly more athletic than Stanford and you know, took it to them at their home court in Maple Civilian. So that's something that I kind of have in the back of my mind. It's like, do we worry about Stanford if they get matched up against a team that just is a lot more physical and capable of like, you know, blowing by them, just has more speed, more like, you know, athleticism in the half court? It's going to depend on the matchup. I still think like, you know, this was a, this was a really great game from usc. Right. Like, it's one of the better games I've seen them play, which is a strange thing to say considering what we got from juju Watkins. So I do think you still have to play very well to beat Stanford. I'm not just gonna say, like, any old, you know, team can just walk into Maples and take a game out of them, and that's just not what happens. But there is, like, there's something there. And then I think these two weeks are going to be good for Talana Lopolo because she's kind of like the extension of Tara on the court. Right. She's the one who directs everything, and she's just, like, very steady. And I was just going to say.

[Zena Keda]

She has a very fundamental point. She sets the offense up. She doesn't dribble into traffic for no reason. She's. Everything is very directed and intentional in the way that she runs that offense.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Right. And she's got this leg injury that she's been working through like she was another player who was on a scooter on the off day in Las Vegas, and she just did not look healthy to me in that final. Like. Like you were saying, she was doing uncharacteristic things of Talana Lopola, like where she was dribbling into traffic without a plan. So many passes, just like. I don't even know what the intentional direction was, but USC just took him and it was two points the other way. So I think that was a big problem for Stanford was the points off of turnovers. And if Le Polo can get healthy, that just completely changes what their offense looks like, because I think USC scored 21 points off of turnovers. That's. That's more than the margin of victory. Right. That's not something you would expect from a Cardinal team.

[Zena Keda]

Right. And they had less turnovers, but that was the difference was that they were able. The types of turnovers, they're all live ball. Yeah, live ball in transition. Exactly. Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. So I think that's going to settle them so much more if Talana is just healthier and able to make better decisions with the ball in her hands. So that's kind of what I'm looking forward to at Stanford. I still think they have, like, the potential to beat anybody in the country, but it is a little interesting to me that Stanford hasn't beaten a top five team since November 27th of 2021. And it's not like they haven't had opportunities like they've played South Carolina a couple times. They played Colorado this year. USC was a top five team when they played. There's, you know, a couple other options in there, but it's. It's just something I have in the back of my head, you know, like they're very good against the teams they're supposed to beat. Yeah, but you know, there's a, there's a little ceiling they've been hitting, so, you know, something to file away.

[Zena Keda]

I did not know that. That's interesting. Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And then as for UCLA, I could probably watch the UCLA, USC game like on loop another 7 more times. It was just so entertaining. And the genuine disdain between juju Watkins and Charisma Osborne as they were guarding one another was delightful. Just so, so very fun to watch. It's exactly the kind of theater you hope across town rivalry gives you. And when they were asked about each other post game, just like could not find it in themselves to say nice things about the other ones. It was beautiful. I so very much enjoyed it. I'm deeply disappointed that it was the last time it's going to happen because, like, they share so much of background. Like they're both from la. They both actually went to Windward, you know, juju Watkins transfers to Sea Air Canyon afterwards. But they share a lot of basketball history growing up and to end up on opposite sides of this and charisma Osworn's been in a situation where UCLA just kicks their butt all the time up until juju gets there. Now it's like, oh, God. Like this team in red and gold is actually pretty good.

[Zena Keda]

And led by a freshman at that point too.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Like, that's something to three veteran grad transfers who like, you know, do their thing, but true. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, she's, you know, getting beaten up a little bit by a freshman and that's, that's tough to take.

[Zena Keda]

That's so loving basketball. I just think at usc, like, don't want to get your spot taken by a freshman even though they're on different teams. It's just like you don't want to get beat up in the Pac 12 by a freshman. So. Okay, sorry. Keep going.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So like I said with usc, I think UCLA is a pretty complete team. Right. You've got Lauren Betts inside, who's just a load for anyone to handle. Pretty soft touch around the basket. I thought she was excellent defensively in the two games that UCLA played in Vegas. I do think that UCLA needs to get the ball into her more. There's just so many possessions where things happen and Bets is not getting a touch. And I'm not saying she needs to take a shot on every possession, but like, at least if she gets a touch in the paint that collapses the defense a little bit, opens things up like on the second side or somewhere. It's just, it's a little annoying to watch them not utilize bets every time down. And like, I understand that's asking a lot from her in terms of, you know, stamina. But I do think, you know, you just have to involve your best players. Like that's, that's how this works.

[Zena Keda]

But they said that. I can't remember why I was listening to this, but when Betts was out for those four games reincorporating her, I think they were talking about how the guards had to kind of relearn how to play with her and play through her really being able to what you're talking about the inside out game. She doesn't have to get the shot up every single time. But her moving the defense in a way from getting the ball inside. Do you think they're still relearning that?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think it's just bad decisions, honestly. I think they know how to get the ball to her. It's just sometimes it's exciting to like try to drive and try to like take a cool mid range pull up, you know, but that's just not the best offense UCLA can run. And so they have bets, you know, they have charisma. Osborne, one of the premier guard defenders in the country who's just like, has a knack for hitting big shots, right? Like the couple threes that she hit when you know UCLA is originally down 16 in the semifinal to tie the game, it was just, she's got a sense of the moment, I think. Kiki Rice, you know, just really excellent driver, slasher. If the jumper is working, she's literally unguardable. It was not working against usc, but she's really fun to watch, you know, and then you just have all these like little pieces you can throw off the bench. London Jones with her shooting, Gabriella Hawkes, Christine Iwala was like a nice little drive and dump partner for Kiki Rice during parts of that game. They've got, you know, all the talent you'd want. I still think they're a little young because they basically have six sophomores in their rotation. And Lauren Betts didn't really play last year. The UCLA bigs did not play a ton last year. So to me you kind of see that inexperience come through with ucla. Like I felt that at the end of the game against usc, like all of these crunch time decisions where I wish they could have executed better. So I think this experience is going to be super important for them. But I'm not sure that they're the team that you want to rely on to make all the right decisions down the stretch just because of how young they are. But they have so much talent that I'm not going to bet against them unless there's a team that like, is actually talented enough to make them pay for that. So I don't think that's going to happen until, you know, like the second weekend of the tournament. But we'll, you know, we'll see when that ends up.

[Zena Keda]

I do think out of the PAC 12, I do think Stanford can hold their own. I agree with you in terms of I think they are post oriented and they are half court oriented. And when you get into the national stage and you're starting to go up against teams outside of their conference, that's going to get exposed, especially when you start going up and down. And USC is that type of player, is that type of team. I think that reminds me of some of these east coast teams. That reminds me of the teams out of the Big east, out of the sec, et cetera. But so we'll see what happens if you know, where they get seated and where they get put. But I think Stanford definitely has to find a way to get their guards more involved. And I feel like UCLA is the opposite where they have to get their posts more involved. That's, that's kind of funny that they're the, the juxtaposition of each other. All right, I want to close this out. I'm going to ask you about like, you know, being at the last Pac12 tournament because I'm not going to lie to you, I had tears in my eyes watching the montage of all the accomplishments and all the people that have come before. Watching Kelsey Plumb become the scoring leader, watching the Guy McKay Sisters at Stanford. Well, I mean, I remember when I was in high school, like Candice Wiggins and Jane Appel at Stanford were like, I love them, I loved them. It's kind of crazy to think that this is the last one. And I love Chantelle Jennings wrote, I'll never forgive the football association, essentially college football, for ruining and dismembering essentially the Pac 12. What were the vibes like in that arena around the tournament?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, just one quick thing about Stanford. You mentioned all of these really great women who have gone through that program, their basketball program for some reason they did these pre game hype videos for USC and Stanford on Sunday and they had Cheryl Miller deliver the USC one and then Andrew Luck for Stanford, who was so low energy, admittedly a women's basketball fan. You Know, not like he's.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, he's at the game, but. What?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Right, but all of the deep roster of women you could have tapped to make this speech. Like Janae okomoke, works for ESPN. Was she not available to give you 90 seconds to hype up the Cardinal?

[Zena Keda]

That's so weird. What? And this was in person or on video?

[Sabrina Merchant]

No, no, this is on video.

[Zena Keda]

What? Oh, my God.

[Sabrina Merchant]

This is when I started to have bad feelings about Stanford.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. Come on. What? Andrew. Okay, we're going to move on from that. Thank you for giving that piece of.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Information vibes for the Pac 12. Yeah, it was just really emotional for a lot of people, right? Like the Pac 12 now, where people, they were like, so huggy with one another, like, thinking about all of the time they spent working together that who knows where their next jobs are going to lead. You know, the current commissioner of the PAC 12, Teresa Gold, who will remain the commissioner of the PAC 12 when it's just Oregon State and Washington State, you know, for the next. However, how long was. You know, it's just like, it was a really hard few days for her because there were all these responsibilities you have to take on as a commissioner. Like, we get to award Tara Vanderveer, like, you know, the 1203 plaque to commemorate this victory and, like, you know, get to celebrate Leah Gales for this Courage Award in her hometown of Las Vegas. Like, all these lovely things you get to do and then just thinking like, oh, well, this was the inaugural winner of this Courage Award. Is it inaugural because it's only one, right? Like, we're never gonna have another one of these. And like, we do a ceremony for Tara basically every year at the Pact12 tournament. We don't have to plan one next year. Everything was like, oh, this is so much fun, but this is the last time we're going to do it. And it was. It's just so strange. Like, you could feel that from a lot of people around. And, you know, a lot of the Las Vegas Aces happened to be around for the games because they was in Las Vegas. And like, Natalie Williams went to ucla, she's the general manager of the Aces. And it was just tough for her to think about, like, you know, as a California kid, like, ah, this is. This is it. Like, we get this tournament every year and now, like, the. All the teams you grow up playing for and are, like, rooting for and all the ones that have been on your schedule, it was just strange. It was very, very strange. And I mean, I didn't get to watch the TV presentations of any of it. But, like, I got a bunch of text messages after the game ended of, like, oh, my God, the in memoriam of the PAC12. I was not ready for it. The last PAC12 network broadcast on Friday basically ends with, like, the USC band yelling UCLA sucks. Which I thought was very funny and very fitting. Very fitting, right. You could tell there was a definite determination, like, we want to put on a show, you know, to prove that this is a mistake. Like, this is a conference that is capable of real excellence, especially in this sport. And it's a mistake that we're not going to be together next year, but we're going to go out in style. Like, that kind of attitude.

[Zena Keda]

Well, they should be proud of themselves. I think everyone that watched that tournament and, you know, I wasn't there in person, but watching it from at home, the performance that the players put on, I mean, what this whole season, really unbelievable farewell tour, like, unbelievable. I can't believe this is not going to happen next year. Sentiment amongst all fans and people just watching, they. They really outdid themselves. And it is sad. It's going to be an adjustment. I don't think I've felt anything close to this since the ACC and the Big east kind of, like, restructured and like, Syracuse, you know, came to the ACC and all these, like, teams that were not in this. It was kind of like, oh, God. Like, I was an ACC fan and being in North Carolina, so it's kind of like, who are these people? Like, what are you doing?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I felt we were. When the ACC lost Maryland, and that was just like. Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

And it was one school. Right, Exactly. It's like. So there was. That. That was. That happened on the east coast. And that wasn't a true, you know, conference realignment. It was a small one, but not what is happening right now, where a whole conference is just disappearing. Well, not whole. Excuse me, Take that back. Sorry. Oregon. Oregon State. My bad. But either way, I am very proud of what they did. And it's going to be sad. It's going to be really sad to not have them next year. Especially, obviously now, living in California. Before I let you go, about to talk to Mark Schindler about bracketology. What did you learn about Pac12 bracketology?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, just one little nugget that I wasn't aware of heading into this, but I got to spend some time with the chair of the committee, Lisa Peterson, while she was in Vegas. So if there are four top 16 seeds from the PAC 12, which we expect there to be at least four. Stanford, USC, UCLA, Oregon State, maybe Colorado. We'll see what happens there. Those top four have to be assigned to different regionals. So if you're thinking, like, oh, PAC 12, it's going to make the most sense for the committee to put them out west. That is not the case. So let's assume the order is. I'm not saying this is the order, but let's assume the order is usc, Stanford, ucla, Oregon State. That means USC and Stanford would get their desired choices of going out to Portland, whereas UCLA and Oregon State get stuck in Albany.

[Zena Keda]

Oh, but wait, can you have. So you can have at least two. You just can't have four. Is that what you're saying?

[Sabrina Merchant]

So when I say in Portland, like, there are two regionals in Portland, so it'd be like, portland one, Portland two. Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Okay. Okay. Wow. Okay. Now that really makes me think about Stanford going into another regional where there are other teams that. Wow. Okay. There are other teams that could really play against, you know, their weakness in their guard play and their. Their speed and athleticism. I don't say weakness and guard play, but just like their speed and athleticism in comparison to the rest of the country. Wow. Very interesting. Okay. And would you think that, you know, I mean, this doesn't just apply to the PAC12, it applies to the ACC as well?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, every conference.

[Zena Keda]

Okay. Do you think the ACC is capable of having the same issue?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I don't think we're going to get four ACC teams in the top 16. We'll probably get Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, North Carolina State. Okay, I think that's it. I don't think Syracuse and Louisville have done enough to get into that conversation. Or the Carolina schools or the Tobacco Road schools, I should say. Yeah, so those three. But those three would have to be in three separate regions, so at least one of them is getting sent out West. Wow.

[Zena Keda]

Okay. Oh, this is fascinating. Okay, this is good to know. I know we learned in the last bracketology show with Mark that there's also this second round aspect where you can't.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Play a team in your conference until the sweet 16 at the early.

[Zena Keda]

Until the sweet 16. Got it. Okay.

[Sabrina Merchant]

With these top seeds, they want to make sure that you don't get to face them until the Final Four. So if a fifth Pac 12 team makes it to the top 16, like, let's say Colorado, then they could get assigned, you know, obviously to one of those other four regions, because mathematically you have to put them in the same region. But if it's just the four, they're going to be entirely split up.

[Zena Keda]

Wow. Okay. Well, Sabrina, thank you for giving us, you know, your experience at the Pac12 tournament and the breakdowns of the games as well. It's always wonderful to be able to watch the games as a fan, but then get the actual understanding of what's going on and the context behind certain games. And I think there's a lot of people that in the midst of seeing so many games over the course of the weekend, may have missed one and may have not known that certain people are hurt or certain, you know, certain people have different things going on with each team. So this is really, really fun to hear. So what's next for you as you prepare for the tournament?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Rest, I guess. You know, everybody's got a kind of load up. We've got a lot of things prepared for selection Sunday and later this week, it's. It's gonna be non stop at the athletics, so.

[Zena Keda]

Okay.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Just churning and churning.

[Zena Keda]

No problem. All right, well, that. I'll let you go and I'll get Mark on to join us. Thanks, Sabrina. All right, y'all, I got Mark Schindler in here and he is about to help us out thinking about these brackets. Because I'll tell you what, I watch these games and I see the outcomes and then they say this person's going to be this person at the regionals. They're going to be seated here, they're going to be seated there. Do I actually know what's happening? Not really. And I'm imagining some of you are similar to me. So that's why we got Marky Mark up in here. Mark, how are you?

[Mark Schindler]

I'm good. I'm a little bit tired, but I'm good. It's. It's a nice. It's a nice sunny Monday, so I can't. How are you doing?

[Zena Keda]

You were like in a cave all weekend watching as many games as human.

[Mark Schindler]

A little bit. I got us out a little bit still, but that's about it.

[Zena Keda]

But, yeah. Well, good. I will say your setup is insane. My multitasking, I'm like, I'm. I'm incapable. I cannot like, I try to do the multi view with YouTube and I'll sit there and I'll watch the game that has the sound on, and then I'll look over and still be listening to the game that has the sound on. But, like, looking at the wrong game and I'm like, wait, they didn't score. Oh, wait, hold on. Sorry. Ooh. So I don't know how you do it. It's impressive. We're grateful that you do it. But with that being said, that's why you're the expert and we're here to ask you some questions. So, first and foremost, conference championships and tournaments are happening. We had some championships over the weekend, but not everything's done. I know the Big 12 out of the big ones, Big 12 is still having some games. The Big east tournament championship is today at the day that we're recording of Monday. And then there's tons of mid major still happening throughout the week. But there were some championships that closed up and allowed some automatic bids to happen. Can you break down what has happened so far?

[Mark Schindler]

So, essentially, based on everything that the committee has done and everything that I see, projection wise, I think we have the top four seeds overall locked up. So South Carolina obviously snagged one. They were already good. They didn't need to win the SEC Championship to snag one, but they secured the top overall seed for sure by winning the SEC championship game yesterday. Iowa did the same by winning the Big Ten Championship three times in a row, baby. Yep.

[Zena Keda]

Sorry.

[Mark Schindler]

Stanford was already a lock to me whether or not they won the Pac12 championship and then USC officially punched their ticket. I thought USC was. Should have been a lock regardless of if they won or lost yesterday. But I think from where the committee has looked at things, it was still going to be up in the air. I think if USC had lost that game, Texas would have had a real shot to be the final number four. I mean, the final number one if they won the Big 12 title. But, yeah, rightfully, I think this year we were going to get two packed teams as number one seeds, in my opinion. I would put. I would put money on that.

[Zena Keda]

Okay. Yeah. We just had Sabrina on, and she was talking about a little nugget that she found out that if they get four top seeds out of the Pac12, they can't all play in the same region. Like, they would have to be in different regionals. I didn't. I didn't realize that. I know you had mentioned last show that they can't play each other until the Sweet sixteen, but that they can't play in the same region is like, now you're really, like, looking at those top four seeds and really want it to be one of the top two to stay closer at least, you know, to your home base.

[Mark Schindler]

Yeah. It makes it really exciting in trying to piece everything together, which is funny because I think sometimes when you look at the brackets, it'll be like, all right, well, if this is like, you know, numerically or seeded, I don't really get that. Well, exactly like you're saying, like I had to finagle stuff with the bracket because you have USC and Stanford, but then UCLA is right there. I believe I have UCLA sixth overall right now, just behind Texas, Texas at five. So, okay, even if, like for reference, I think I had right now, I would have it South Carolina, Iowa, USC and then Stanford. But number one, you can't have Iowa and Portland. Iowa has to play in Albany. And secondly, you can't have ucla.

[Zena Keda]

I'm going to pause you there. Can you explain why?

[Mark Schindler]

Yeah, it's been something I've had to keep working through and understanding. But again, like, at least especially for the top couple of seeds, you have to have them like you, every team is not supposed to have quote unquote, home court advantage. Like, you want these teams to be still close to their region so that there's like regional poll, but you don't want there to be like point being like, you're not going to send USC out to go play in Albany. Like, that's just like, obviously they would host, but then they would end up, you know, by the second weekend they out, end up out in Albany and it's like, okay, well, you know, that doesn't work. So that's again like something that you've been having to work through. But like looking at everything that, that actually does play out with the top four C's. Because Oregon State technically should be in. I think I have Oregon State 13th overall right now. So they shouldn't be in. Like, I mean, like, if you're, if you're just looking at it straight seating wise. Because think of it like snaking almost in the way that you're setting up the seeds. Technically Oregon State would be like more in the middle, but they have to be in South Carolina's region the way that I have it set up because usc, UCLA and Stanford already are set. So if any team in any conference, they cannot be in the same region, if they're a top four seed after that, it's fair game. But yeah, and then just, I mean, in general you are trying to keep like as evenly spread as possible. But yeah, so it adds some extra wrinkles to it.

[Zena Keda]

Got it, got it. And can you back up really quickly for our audience and like just break down, what are the regions right now?

[Mark Schindler]

The two regions right now are Albany and Portland and then those get broken down into as well. So Albany one. So I just have it, you know, Albany one, Portland two, Albany three, Portland four. To have it like, you know, set up for understanding the seeds, but it's so it's South Carolina is in Albany one, USC is in Portland two, Iowa's in Albany three, and Stanford is in Portland four.

[Zena Keda]

Got it. Okay. Okay. Definitely check out the bracketology piece on the athletic because it does help to have the visual alongside this.

[Mark Schindler]

Yes, it does.

[Zena Keda]

To be able to break this down, it's hard to hear like from when you know Mark is explaining it, but once you see it alongside his piece, you're like, oh, okay, this makes sense. And this breaks down from the work that you've been doing and talking to folks about bracketology and trying to understand this. How much does the conference tournament really impact things? You just mentioned how South Carolina didn't need to win the SEC championship, but they did anyways. Isla didn't need to win the, the Big Ten tournament, but they did anyways. Those teams were locked in anyways. For the people that were runner ups, people that played that, you know, knocked out some big time teams. I'm thinking Maryland, for example, taking down osu, like, what does that do for them?

[Mark Schindler]

Yeah, I think part of what's hard is a lot of the regular season, Like, I think the way that I've had to kind of reteach myself to look at everything is it's so much less about what your actual record is and it's more about like what your quality wins are versus your losses. You can be a 30 win team, but if, you know, if your 30 wins aren't, you know, the same as somebody, like for reference, like USC won 25 games this year, but those 20, like the wins they had were awesome. I think top down, I would say USC had the most quality wins out of anybody in the country. Granted they had, I believe they finished with five or six losses on the year. I can't remember off the top of my head right now. But even then, like, okay, those, they do not have a bad loss on their resume. They had the loss to Washington, but even then Washington was a very solid team. I think when you look at everything else and when you're picking stuff apart at the top level, especially for the conference tournament, like Ohio State was my second seed overall not that long ago. But then you have an opening loss like that and I think the bigger issue is less about like obviously losing the game is not great. Maryland, like, that's not a bad team to lose to, obviously the fashion they lost in losing by 20 points. Not great. But the, the Bigger issue is more so when you pick it apart and go like, okay, well Ohio State lost an opportunity to pick up three quality wins and that matters a lot when you're picking apart what the top, you know, six, seven, eight seeds are. And that matters throughout. Like, I think especially like you look at teams like one of the hardest parts with, with where we've been at in like say the five through seven seed. A lot of teams that had opportunities to separate themselves in the conference tournament did not because they lost early. So like you take Notre Dame, who was not hosting before they beat Virginia Tech after the top 16 reveal two weeks ago. I think there's a real shot they end up a two seed after the run that they've put together. I'm not for sure that that'll happen. I'd probably bank more not being a three. I have them as a, as a two right now, as the final two, but it's just going to depend. But I think again, like, if you hit that, I know based on everything that, that they have released, like the committee has really valued recent play. So that's why I think you'll see some teams that drop more significantly. Granted, like, I think they're also going to probably factor in injury stuff, which I don't know. I think we can have a whole debate about how fair that is or you know, from, from both sides.

[Sabrina Merchant]

For sure.

[Mark Schindler]

We, we did a little bit last time I was on. So I think you'll see a team like Virginia Tech probably drop quite a bit. I have them down to the four line this week, but then, okay, like Nebraska raised up Ole Miss, who has been really strong since about the middle of February, now is up to a six seed after, you know, there were some times where I had them like closer to a 10 or 11, but then again, like you look at more teams, like, I think especially with the SEC tournament, there were a lot of teams from the SEC who are all in that 11 seed, 10 seeded range. And it benefited some teams to see the way things played out, especially how things went in other conferences. But also like, I think there was some like, difficulty for them. Like especially Mississippi State is probably my biggest question for the tournament. Like, I think that they have some really solid wins on resume, but they, I believe they went 1 and 7 over their last eight games and they, they struggled mightily against Texas A and M in the first round of the SEC tournament. And again, it's more about like if you don't give opportunities to show that you are a championship or not even Championship. But they are basing things mostly off of, can you win a game in the NCAA Tournament? And I think it's very fair to ask that with Mississippi State right now. Not trying to be unfair to them, but, like, that's just what the process is probably going to look like from them.

[Zena Keda]

No, that's true. That's true. And I know you watched so many games this weekend across so many different conferences. I'm not going to put you on the spot to say, you know, which game was your favorite or whatever it was, unless you want to answer that. But I do want to know if there was a particular conference that stood out to you in terms of overall production of great play that makes you think, oh, this conference as a whole is going to do really well at the NCAA Tournament. And I'm going to be keeping an eye on all of them.

[Mark Schindler]

I mean, it's the PAC 12 for me, like, that goes without saying. I think the Pac 12 was just. Every single game was really fun. There were like one or two blowouts, but almost everything was a close, competitive game. I mean, watching USC's run was. Was just sick. That game against UCLA was. Was very fun. I had a blast with that. I mean, them playing Arizona again. And I think, like, when you're picking apart that stuff like Arizona, I have as my last team in as. As a playing team because of the production they put together the last couple weeks. And I think a lot of people can look at stuff and be like, oh, well, you know, Mississippi State has more wins than that. And I do think, like, with the way that the committee has looked, I believe Arizona went 5 and 2 or 5 and 3 over their last seven games. They really found something. They were extremely competitive against very good teams. And they have a couple of good wins in there, like, and not just good ones, like great ones, like beating Stanford at Maples. So I think that's going to factor in. So for me, yeah, it's the Pac 12 because they there. I mean, there was a chance they would have ended up with only one top seed. I think it was pretty slim. They were going to get a 1 seed regardless. But that was big time for them. I think Big 12 is still TBD because Iowa State has a chance to keep moving up. If they keep playing the way they have, Oklahoma and Kansas State can both play themselves into hosting with how they've looked so far. And you know what, what they do here. But I would also say the sec, like, I do think there was a chance, like, if the SEC hadn't Not that saying. Not saying they hadn't played well, but it's more like, again, I think having Ole Miss put together the run that they did towards the end of the year and the into the SEC tournament was really big for them in. In securing higher seating. So, yeah, I think there's a lot that. I mean, you can. You can point up and down across the board.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. But, yeah. Coach, Coach. Yo. I feel like she's the Dawn Staley protege. Like, she has really brought together her team. I love the way that she said in one of her press conferences that when March comes, it is time to make sure that your team is Kumbaya. Whatever happened throughout the season, you want to make sure that everybody is on the same page, hugging, having a great time, playing together at this time of this year, because that's what you need. And I just think that the way that she coaches her team, the perspective that she has is, like, really, really great. So shout out to oldness and. Yeah, but. Okay, well, I am very excited for this week to kind of close out and Selection Sunday to happen. Before I let you go, I want to ask you this question. Is there anything you're expecting to be, like, a prediction or a surprise on Selection Sunday that you're like, no one's going to see this coming, but I think this is going to happen.

[Mark Schindler]

I don't know. Obviously, I think it depends what happens today, and it depends how healthy Aaliyah Edwards is. But I just think the way that things have been trending, this is not me trying to say that they do or don't deserve it. I personally would not have them on a two seed, but I think I wouldn't be shocked at all if they end up sliding UConn in as the final two seed? I think that's entirely possible. They really have seemed to value the net this year in the way they've looked at things. I believe they're still number two in the net. They played a really strong strength of schedule, so I wouldn't really be too shocked at all if that didn't up happening.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, you heard it here first, folks. Mark Schindler making that prediction. Okay, cool. Well, we appreciate you jumping in, giving us a little bit bracketology, and the new. Your new piece on bracketology will be live today as of the time that this. That this podcast is airing, right?

[Mark Schindler]

Yes.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, awesome. All right, well, we're looking forward to reading it, and I hope everyone out there takes the chance to, you know, takes a moment to read it. Through it because it is super educational and helps me understand like what I'm actually looking for or expecting when it comes to the brackets. And then you have a bubble watch coming out this week too, right?

[Mark Schindler]

Yeah. And we'll also be having daily updates on the bracket because of how much is going on with conference term, which speaking of today, like we have, I think it tips off and tipped off about like four minutes ago. But James Madison and Marshall are playing for the Sunbelt Conference. That'll actually be a really good one. Both those have been really strong teams this year. So. Okay, a lot of good ones to be excited about.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, I saw Green Bay and ipfw.

[Mark Schindler]

Yeah, I still don't understand how your University of Indiana Purdue, but that, you know, that's the Midwest is special.

[Zena Keda]

All love to our Midwest listeners. Appreciate you guys tuning in, but all right, Mark, I will let you go because I know you are busy. Appreciate you coming on and like explaining bracketology to us because thanks for having me. I absolutely need it. All right, well, that is all for today in terms of interviews, but I am about to go off the script for today's off the script. I want to speak candidly but also quickly about the SEC final on Sunday. LSU lost at South Carolina 79, 72. But that wasn't the obvious main point of the game. The main point of the game was the skirmish that happened at the end of the game. And there's three things that bother me about it. And by the way, let me just set it up. Malaysia Ful Wylie gets the ball in a turn over. She's about to go on a breakaway layup when Flauje Johnson pulls her jersey to stop her from doing so. LSU is down. They're frustrated because they're down in just over two minutes left in the game. FL Johnson having been the one that tugged the jersey. They're now reviewing the call to see if it's intentional. So they're sending everyone back to their benches. As they're walking back to their benches, Ashlin Watkins, a forward for South Carolina, walks very closely by Flauj Johnson. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but she's close enough to Flau Johnson as she's celebrating and hyping up like, yeah, clapping and all that. Flau Johnson didn't appreciate it, didn't like the taunting. And she takes her forearm, two arms together and shoves her. Now, Ashley Watkins didn't move much because Ashley Watkins is Ashton Watkins, a very strong player in the post, and Flauj Johnson is a guard. Flau Johnson's intent was to shove Ashlyn Watkins. And had she been a smaller guard, it might have worked. In seeing that shove by Flaw J. Johnson, Camilla Cardoso goes into protector mode and runs over and shoves Flage Johnson to the ground. This time, the shoves works. It works. And Flauge Johnson's feet leave the floor, and she ends up on the ground. And the chaos ensues. The bench is empty. They're all in the middle of the mix. Camila Cardoso is brought back to her bench, pulled away from by her coaches and teammates. And it's a whole thing now. Having seen the situation live and having seen the lead up to the situation and having seen the whole game, there were three things that really bothered me about the way this whole thing went down. Number one, the punishment stole out. I understand seeing what Camilla did to Flau J. Johnson deserves severe punishment. Punishment deeper than just an injection. I get that. So she was apparently assessed a disqualification from the first round game of the NCAA tournament. I think there's two other people that deserved a disqualification. Number one, Flaudj Johnson. She started this entire thing by shoving Ashlyn Watkins. Just because her shove didn't have the same impact that Camilla Cardoso's shove had doesn't mean that her intent was not to harm someone and shove them. Right. She apologized for her actions as the Camilla, as did Dawn Staley for the actions of her team. But that doesn't mean that you are exempt from what you did. Not because you apologize and also not because of your size. And I think that that's what's happening to Camilla is that she's being demonized because she's bigger and she's the center that's 6, 7. And flaw J is much smaller. And it's like, no, I'm the younger sibling in my between my sister, my older sister, and myself. And I remember being young and taking advantage of the fact that my mom would tell my sister, don't hit your sister back. She doesn't know any better. She's younger, she's smaller. I was only smaller for a little bit than I outgrew. But in the time that I was smaller, I was allowed to do whatever I wanted because I was smaller. And I kind of feel like this is what's playing out here a little bit where it's Camilla, you should know better than to push someone like that. And you're so much bigger and it's so much harder. It was such a much harder push because you know you're Bigger than Florida Johnson. It's like, all right, that's. Sure, you want to say that, that's fine. But at the end of the day, in both situations, the intent there was to shove someone. So if Camila can assess a disqualification, flauge should be assessed as disqualification. And if you don't want to put it on that, put it on the fact that all of this wouldn't have happened had Flaw J not done what she'd done. So there's that. The third person I think also deserves a disqualification is another person that had the intent to harm but didn't have the same impact because she also is smaller. And that was Hayley Van Lith. She came into the skirmish with the intent of hurting Camila Cardoso. I don't know what she thought she was going to do because she's similar in size to Flage, but that should have also been assessed. And the reason why is, again, because of the intent, a bonus person that's already been, you know, assessed their punishment, and who knows what's going to happen to him. Flauj Johnson's brother, bro, what are you doing? Flauge Johnson was not in the mix of men being thrown to the ground and beat up. These were women, and she started it. Let your sister finish what she started. You do not need to come to the rescue, especially as a man. What are you going to do? Put your hands on Camila Cardoso on national television. Put your hands on Camilla Cardoso, period. What was about to happen. I'm very curious. I'm very curious. And there was other people. There was a guy that skipped in from the sideline, and I don't know what he was gonna do. I mean, when you skip into a fight, you're probably not gonna do much, but there's a lot of people that just found their way in there that I was like, what? Go sit down. Especially the men. Please, go sit down. So that's number one. Number two, I do not like the way that this whole situation is being characterized in media. I don't often look up or read TMZ sports, but when I looked up LSU SC this morning, I came across this article about the event title. Is LSU's flaw J. Johnson shoved to the ground during SEC title game? Absolutely correct. The photo that's with it is absolutely correct. It's Camila Cardoso standing over Flaw J. Johnson as her feet are suspended in the air? Yeah, not a lie told here, but here's the way that the. The whole situation was characterized. Number one, they called it A wild fight. I don't know if I would call it a wild fight. I've seen some wild fights. I don't think I would call the shove. And basically that's it, a wild fight. We've seen punches thrown, folks. This was not a wild fight. Another thing they said was Johnson nudged Ashton Watkins. Nudged. You nudge people when you want their attention. You nudge people when you want them to move out of your way just a little bit. What Flauge did was not a nudge. But that doesn't go with the story. Story always needs an antagonist, a protagonist. And in this case, they really wanted to make Flauge Johnson the protagonist. But even she knew she was an antagonist because she apologized to Don Staley for her part in this. Nudged tmz, really? Again, I'm not saying TMZ is a great source of news, but I'm saying that there are people that have never watched women's basketball or didn't watch this game or don't know anything about LSU or South Carolina and they'll read something like this and now have a new painted picture of who Camila Cardoso is based on the way that this is characterized and described. The article continues to say after Johnson nudge Ashley Watkins on her way back to the bench, that prompted Camila Cardoso to run into the skirmish and put her, quote, hands all over Johnson, end quote. That is not what happened. There was a two hand push on John, on Johnson, and then Camilla was separated. That is all. And the way that it's characterized is as if Camila Cardoso came in, pushed her and then got on top of her to fight her some more. But what happened was she just stood over her and looked at her while Hayley Van List ran in to push her. She didn't move much because she's a 6, 7 center, but that's what happened. There wasn't much else that happened. And so to say, put her hands all over Johnson characterizes that as something that was much deeper, much longer, much more violent than it actually was. And the funny thing is they have the clips within it, but the way it's described is not the way that it went down. And when you see stuff like that, it allows a narrative to permeate into the minds of the people that don't know these players and allows them to say, yeah, they are thugs. I read it. She put her hands all over Johnson. All she did was nudge her, right? The words can be so dangerous in the way that they characterize people and put people in a certain light and put situations into a certain light. The situation was not good. Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning the whole situation. Of course emotions flew. But what I'm saying is that what bothers me is the media is not giving enough nuance to the situation. This wasn't an out of nowhere shove by Johnson, then a shove by Cardoso, then a shove by Haley Van Leth, then a skirmish that empties the bench. It wasn't out of nowhere. This game had been physical, tenacious, nasty. Really, all game long. There had been hair pulling, there had been bows thrown, there had been trash talk. There had been a lot of things that the refs could have done a lot soon, a lot more about sooner, but they didn't. And that's how it got to this point. Just 2 minutes left in the game. I wish more nuance would have been given in that regard. I wish more nuance would have been given in admitting and calling out that this whole situation wouldn't have started or happened without what Flage did to start the situation. And calling out Hayley Van Lith. I haven't seen really a lot of people calling out the fact that. Or in the media at least calling out the fact that Hayley Van Lith is not innocent as well she was involved. They're actually calling more out the fact that Angel Reese, who had just rolled her ankle again for the second time, was going to the bench rather than getting into the skirmish. That's been more of a thing for people to call out than the fact that Hayley Van Lith was also participating in this. It's crazy and I really dislike it. And I really dislike it as particularly as a former basketball player that myself, I was also a protector of my team and would have felt the same intuition and instinct that Camila Cardoso felt, maybe not to that degree to shove someone to the ground, but, you know, teach his own or her own. But I'm not surprised that that's what her instinct was. And I'm also not surprised that Haley Van List reaction. Right. But I would love more nuance in explaining what happened so that it's not characterized as this violent fight that mars women's basketball. It didn't mar the whole tournament, it didn't mar the whole game. These things happen. No one's going to stop watching and no one should stop watching women's basketball just because this happened. But when you portray it that way in the media, that's what's going to happen. Last but not least, I hated the way that Kim Mulkey decided to respond to this. You saw a class act in Dawn Staley, owning and taking accountability for her team's part of her part what she was going to do to talk to her team about this and how unfortunate it was. And also letting people know that Flauje Johnson apologized to her, something she did not have to do. Class act, true leader, true top caliber, pedigree type of coach. On the other hand, you have LSU's coach Kim Mulkey, a coach of high pedigree as well in terms of winning, in terms of success, both at Baylor and lsu, saying that Camilla Card also picked on the wrong person, that she wished she would have pushed Angel Reese, insinuating that the fight would have been better had she chosen another player, her star player, who apparently is the, you know, as she said, the person that she was drawing with back and forth. You don't want them to be doing anything back and forth. You don't want them to be doing any of the fighting that happened. You don't want them to do any of the shoving that happened at the end of the game. You don't want them in a position that way. Why would you encourage that? As a coach, she needs to take accountability for those comments and take accountability for where her players fit into the whole situation. And I had, I didn't see her do that and it was really unfortunate. I felt like I was back at a backyard type of situation. Like, oh, you're going to pick on my little one? Like, wait till her brother comes out or you gonna pick up my little one, Wait till her big sister comes out. It's like, what are we doing here? NCAA Women's College basketball, Division one, big time platform. Like, this isn't the back roads of LSU or Louisiana. Excuse me. And that's how I felt. Like she came at it like a parent in the stands as opposed to the coach of a team that is looking to make another run to the championship. So those are my thoughts. I know not all of you are going to agree. That's okay. We will have a safe space in order for you all to voice your concerns and your comments or your, your rebuttals, whatever you'd like to say. Just my thoughts for today's off the script. Appreciate you all tuning in today. Thank you to Sabrina and Mark for joining and giving us a little bit of background on both the PAC12 and bracketology. Again, hit that subscribe button to this podcast and leave us comments. If you have any topics that you want us to cover or questions for our writers or for me. But for now, for Sabrina, for Mark, I'm Zena Keda. I'm thanking you for your ear, encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game. Keep giving it the nuance it deserves because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. All right, well, until next time.

[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

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[Zena Keda]

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