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- [00:01]
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- [01:18]
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- [03:44]
Zena Keda
There to watch them.
- [03:45]
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- [04:57]
Zena Keda
For the Athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by Michelob Ultra. Oh welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by Michelob Ultra. The WNBA Finals kicked off this week in Michelob Ultra arena and game one was quite the affair. The liberty went down to the Aces, 99, 82 after being up three at the half. And the Aces did a lot of things well and it seems like. Well, not seems like it is the truth. The Liberty just didn't do enough well. So I've got Ben Pickman and Sabrina Merchant here to break it all down for us, and I cannot wait to dive in. But first, I want to talk about that arena because it looked insane. For those of us that were sitting at home, it was not hard to gather that Michelob Ultra arena was rocking. The music was loud, the fans were rowdy. It was star studded. I mean, LeBron sitting with Cheryl Swoopes. Tom Brady sitting with Aces owner Mark Davis. There were several Nets players in the building as well as WNBA most improved player Satu Sablee personal fave. She was there to support her sister, Niara Ashanti. At halftime, folks, Ashanti Millennials, stand up. Okay, this was our moment here. This game was insane. You could barely hear WNBA Countdown the desk during the game. So, Sabrina, I want to start there. As a person who has been to several Aces games and you're not a stranger to the fact that there's a lot of celebrities in Vegas and there's that entertainment factor present at most Vegas events, would you say that this environment was on par with what you usually experience at Aces games?
- [06:56]
Sabrina Merchant
Oh, this was definitely more. I mean, I was sitting right next to Ben watching the game, and there were several times when he said something and I had no idea what he said, so, wow. The volume was there, the energy was there. You know, our colleague Tashawn Reed wrote a great story at the Athletic about the way that Aces have ingratiated themselves into the community in Las Vegas. And I think you just saw the epitome of that yesterday in Game one. I mean, you mentioned all the celebrities who were there, all of the athletes in the house were there. Cheryl Swoopes was there. I can't remember if you actually said that, but just everybody wanted this ticket, right? Like, this is the game people wanted to be at. And the Aces have been creating this environment all year. You know, they led the league in home attendance this year. They led the league in road attendance this year, which I think is even more impressive. And it's not like this is, you know, this is a work in progress. They only averaged 5,600 per game last year, and that rose to 9,500 this year. So it's been a dramatic increase in terms of what winning has done to bring a crowd to Las Vegas. So it's just really Cool to see what the environment can be like, what it should be like for women's sports. I know Ben can speak more to what Barclays will hopefully look like for Game three and maybe Game four. But, yeah, this was special. This was something I haven't really experienced at Vegas, even during All Star. Just the excitement for this matchup, I think, was a big part of it. But, you know, the Aces have worked really hard to make their games a destination in Las Vegas, and you felt that, like, this is. This is what people wanted to be doing on a Sunday. And I think it really works to the Aces advantage, frankly.
- [08:33]
Zena Keda
Oh, for sure. And I was just going to ask Ben the same thing. I think when you think about those two arenas, and let's just be real, WNBA arenas across the country are particularly rocking these days. It's wonderful. Like, it's exactly what you want to see. It's just engaged fans, it's fun. Music's on. They got all the halftime stuff and all the good stuff going at all these arenas. But when you think particularly about Michelob and Barclays, they're on different levels. And Ben, when you think about how loud it was in there to the point that you couldn't even speak to Sabrina right beside you, and just the general context of it just being. It's game one of the WNBA Finals with these two massive teams, how do you think that environment, like, impacted the game and the way that the team.
- [09:18]
Ben Pickman
Showed up, I mean, I think you felt the energy very much leading into the game as fans started to trickle in. And it's one of the things that makes Mikla Vulture most unique is, frankly, their use of pyrotechnics in the arena during pregame festivities, like during the national anthem, during starting lineups, you just see, you know, fire, like sprinklers, I guess, or fireworks, sprinklers, sparklers, whatever it is, go off at multiple occasions. And you're sitting there being like, are we sure this is safe? Like, it's super cool to see, and everyone takes their phones out and films it. But, you know, a part of me is like, are we sure we're inside an arena here? Is this really the best thing? And that is one of the things that I think makes Nickel Boltra's experience so unique. I mean, you know, you talk about atmosphere and environment. You know, Courtney Vandersloot, the veteran point guard for the New York Liberty, she called it afterwards that it was insane, referring to kind of the energy, the raucous crowd. And, you know, she talked later about that Environment. And that kind of. Now New York kind of knows what to expect. And they have played in some big games obviously before, and they played in the Commissioners Cup Final in Las Vegas before. But I think this was even another level. I mean, I think my kind of lasting memory, too, is one of the things that has made ASUS games so unique is everyone knows how expensive everything is along the Strip, but they do this promotion for a local pizza place. I think it's called Slice of Las Vegas. Is that right, Sabrina? Or Slice of Las Vegas. That's exactly right. Slices of Las Vegas. Slice of Vegas. And the promotion is over. The PA When a visiting player goes to the free throw line, the PA goes like, Ms. Twice, get a slice. Right? I'm. I'm saying this correctly. And everyone. Everyone chants it and says it back and is like anticipating with their fingers crossed that they're going to get this, like, $10, presumably mediocre slice of pizza for free. And Jocelyn Willoughby, the reserve guard for the Liberty, she went to the free throw line with just under a minute to play. You know, Las Vegas had basically, the game was all but decided at that point. It just, you know, all the starters were out. New York had pulled its players, and Willoughby goes to the line, and she misses two free throws. And it felt like this culminating cheer that, you know, they had. They had rained MVP chance down on Asia Wilson. The whole time the crowd had waved their rally towels. They were super into it. And then to cap it all off, like the little cherry on top of the Sunday in this situation was just a free slice of pizza to all the fans. And the crowd went crazy when Willoughby missed the second pair. I mean, that is the Las Vegas crowd in nickel vulture, or it was certainly in game one.
- [11:46]
Zena Keda
The partnerships minded me is just, like, so pleased because that IS Partnership Marketing 101 is getting the crowd engaged through the use of a brand and, like, shout out to whoever put that promotion together. But that's cool. That's the environment you want to play in. That's the environment these sort of games deserve. Who wants to come out and feel like nobody's really, or people are acting too cool for school, Right? Like in this type of environment. No, you want to be in this game because these are huge teams. And that kind of gets me into. The next thing I want to talk about is, like, beyond the atmosphere, the context around this matchup was crazy all season long. I mean, these super teams, or super squads as we at the Athletic dubbed it, they, you know, there's. There's this Context, the storyline of, like, it's a super team, one made by free agency and one made through the draft. And then there's the super teams of the east and the West. And then, then there's the battle of the point gods and Courtney Vandersloot and Chelsea Gray and the Snipers and Sabrina and Jackie. Like, it was just so many storylines. I mean, you know, personally, my favorite and I think everyone's favorite battle of the MVPs, right? Like the MVP hopeful and the MVP selected and WNBA stars Asia Wilson and Briana Stewart. I mean, this was. There was so much fodder around this game, so much lead up around this game, so much anticipation, and then boom, like, you finally got game one. Ben, when you think about some of these contextual storylines and the battles represented in this matchup, what were you looking forward to the most? Like, seeing that play out in this game. And was that actually the one that stood out to you after you watched game one?
- [13:29]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think it was two things. One, I was super interested on the backcourt battle and just how that was going to play out and what the implications of that was going to be. But I think the thing that, you know, I stuck with and or thought a lot about in the lead up, and it was a big topic of conversation on Saturday at finals media day, was just what would the impact of this long layoff be, frankly, between the semifinals and the finals? And that was really the big talking point from coaches, players leading into this game that, you know, they had played so long all season, everyone was kind of gearing up for this point. And then suddenly, like, people were just itching to play. I think that was the phrase Becky Hammond used. Like, we're just itching to get out there because, you know, Las Vegas had a. I want to say it was a. An eight day layoff, something like that. Eight or nine days in New York, a week long layoff between their semis finishing and the start of this finals. And so, you know, I kind of was expecting a little bit of a slow start. I also talked with Olaf Lang, the assistant coach for the New York Liberty, and he's like, I wouldn't be surprised if game one got off to a slow start. And then suddenly game one did not get off to a slow start. And I think that was like the first thing that really jumped out to me. And I remember looking over at Sabrina was like, oh, like, this is not a slow start. They've come out firing both teams up and down. You know, Asia and Stewie scored the first basket of the series for each of their respective teams. And the offense only kind of continued from there. The pace was really high. The intensity was really high. You could see kind of the physicality on defense. And so it felt like, okay, like, all these things really are coming together in a way that is so cool and is so memorable. And, like, everyone was just ready, like, and this was the collision everyone was expecting. And I think that was one of the, you know, the parts that really stuck out, especially, of course, of that first half. We'll get to that second half. But coming out of the first half, it was like, okay, take a breath. Like, we are here. Like, all these things we've talked about that you just threw out Zena, like, they are all playing out in front of our eyes. And that was a really, really unique experience.
- [15:23]
Zena Keda
I'll tell you, Ben, I was, you know, it was Sunday, so I was kind of laid out, lounged out on my couch, like, excited to watch the game. And my sister was sitting beside me. And I'm telling you, first bucket that take by Asia, she misses it, gets the O board, puts it back. Other end, Brianna Stewart, working on the block, puts up bucket. And I kid you not, I was laying down, I got up real fast and I was like, eve, my sister, this is about to be a good game. Focus in, like, this is about, like, those quick back to back buckets. And then it just kept going. Then it was Jackie and Sabrina's turn right after that, right. This game. Immediately for me, that storyline that I wasn't necessarily thinking about that but popped out was how much offensive power are on these two teams. What about you, Sabrina?
- [16:15]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, just to add on to the layoff thing, I know I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but it really was one of my favorite Asia Wilson moments of the year when they played the Los Angeles Sparks and she realized that the Sparks had a week off and they had played four games since, like, the Sparks had last played. And she was like, you give us a week off, you watch how we're going to shoot. And yet again, the Aces had nine days off. And look how well they shot from the floor. You know, 55% from the field, 41% on threes. Asia Wilson herself, seven of 11 from the field, like, she made a promise that she could keep. And, you know, you talk a lot about rest versus rust in these situations. The Aces don't get rusty. They get tired because they play with six players. That was all the rotation that they used in this game one. But when you Give them time to rest, which this final schedule is affording them. You know, the next game gives them another three days off until game two, four days off before game three. I think it really favors them. And that, you know, that long layoff allowed all of them to be as composed, as productive, as rested, as comfortable as possible. You saw that with Jackie, you saw that with Kelsey. You saw that with Asia. I mean, I just think it's. It was just a really good showcase of basketball. Like we. The last time we saw these two teams play, end of a road trip. You know, the first time New York came into Vegas during the regular season, it was an end of their road trip. They've just never been in the same situation where both of them could be at peak performance. And to see them at their best in that first half was just so much fun.
- [17:42]
Zena Keda
It was a lot of fun. Speaking of favorite Asia Wilson moments, mine is easily dang, that camera is real close. In that post game interview when that camera was so close to her face. But not basketball related. But getting back to the basketball, Ben, you made a really good point about that backcourt battle and the battle of the backcourts. I don't know. I don't know if you could call it quite a battle because it was quite the beating. Aces backcourt combined for 72 points while the Liberty's guards could only squeeze out 28. Unescu. Uncharacteristic shooting night for her. She had only 1 of 5 from 3, 2 of 7 from the field. She only finished with 7, which the Liberty definitely heard to do more in order to be able to play and be. Be in this game. The only thing that really gave him any lift was Marine. Oh, my girl. Marine Jojo. Marine Jahan is coming in, and we're gonna make sure to discuss her in a little bit. But four threes and finish. And you know, that's half of the 28. Excuse me. She had 12. Excuse me. In the first half of that 28. And then Vandersloot, you know, 10 shots, 36% from the floor. I mean, it wasn't really what they needed. Excuse me. 10 points, 36% from the floor. On the other hand, other side of the ball, two aces guards, Kelsey plummet, Jackie Young finishing with 26 points each. And then the point guy, Chelsea Gray, 20 of her own, Sabrina. It looked like the Aces guards were doing it all for their team. And that point differential, 72 to 28, definitely from an offensive perspective, tells that story, but to me, it also tells a very big defensive story. As well. They were doing great things on both sides of the ball. For you, what did you like most about the Aces backcourt in game one?
- [19:41]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, it's hard not to like 78 points. It's a very big number. I'm sorry, 72 points. 72 points is a very big number no matter what you do defensively. I think if you're going to score 72 points, it's going to put you in position to win a lot of games. And one of the reasons I had picked the Liberty heading into this series was because I had thought that they'd really figured out the Aces defensively. In the last few of their matchups, like in the Commissioners cup, the aces only scored 63 points. They scored 74, 75 points in that last game in Barclays. Even the game that they won, you know, against New York, that game that was directly after the Commissioners cup, it's not like they were, you know, putting up a lot of points in that game either. So they'd been real defensive battles between these two teams. And I just liked what I was seeing from New York's defense. But then we saw New York's defense kind of hit a snag against Connecticut, right? Like they couldn't stop Tiffany Hayes. They had to go into a zone. Sandy's talked one on one defense just a ton. And it was again that problem against the Aces where every single guard just really liked her matchup. Even Chelsea Gray against Panaj Elainey didn't seem to have too much of a difficulty. So, yeah, you don't score 72 points just because you're doing well offensively. You also, like the defense is giving you openings. Right. Sandy Brunello said that too many open layups weren't getting matched up in transition. Jackie and Plum just overwhelmingly comfortable with whatever shots they were getting. And this is, you know, Kelsey Plum still only shot, I believe, one of seven on three pointers in this game. Like it could have been worse for the Aces. Like they could have easily topped the century mark. But I do think that this is going to come down to how the Liberty back court just engages defensively because, yeah, seven points from SAB is not going to get it done. The impact that Sloot had is not going to get it done. But you can't win games when you're giving up 99 points. That's the first thing you have to address. 82 points is fine. They have won games against the Aces scoring 82 points. They literally won the Commissioner's cup by scoring 82 points against the Aces. So I'm not concerned about what they're getting offensively. It's just it has to come down to defense because they can't win giving up 72 points to the Aces Cards.
- [21:40]
Ben Pickman
And I'll just jump in and say, like, I think that really is the key. Sabrina hits it on the head. Like how New York defends Las Vegas, I think is really the key side to this series. Because New York, you know, what they so like to do is get stops, get out and run in transition. You know, the ball starts to move and flow on offense and then you see their offense click the way it has all year. And what happens when they don't get stops is you sometimes see and they talked about this post game, their offense gets stagnant. Or Courtney Vandersloot talked about how, you know, in that third quarter once we were not getting stops, we just started to take the first shot and not necessarily try and get the best shot. You know, she talked about even herself not being aggressive enough attacking the basket. And I think, you know, there's some truth to that. We saw Sabrina Unescu, like, you know, I think it's indicative of them not swinging the ball or getting as much ball movement. She took seven field goal attempts, right? Like if the ball is clicking and swinging around the perimeter and they're driving and kicking, you know, or they're playing out of the post and they're kicking out to her sloot like she's going to get more than seven shot attempts in a game or you would think she would. And so when that defense kind of falls flat, so many things kind of there is such a trickle down effect for the New York Liberty. I mean, you know, I think the thing that I've thought about too as it relates to stopping their garden, Sabrina mapped out how difficult of a challenge it was, is I was talking pretty series with Zach O'Brien and another Liberty assistant and I was just kind of asking him like, you know, the key to kind of slowing them down. And without getting into too many specifics, he kind of said be connected, which is something I think, you know, they, the New York Liberty admittedly struggled like being physically connected with the guards that were defending, communicating. And I think we saw a couple communicative lapses specifically on some pick and roll defense and pray a little bit is what Zach said, that their shots don't go in because they're going to get their shots, they're going to get their looks. And you know, I think those are all true. And Sunday clearly Their prayers were not answered because they were not as connected in the second half. They didn't communicate at times, and God knows that no prayers were answered because as Sabrina mapped out, the Aces backcourt basically had a field day in that second half. Jackie Young, especially, getting whatever they wanted.
- [23:48]
Zena Keda
Oh, yeah, for sure. Pray a little bit is definitely the right attempt or try to do something, but yes, definitely praying about it. When you look at going up against the Aces or the Liberty. But that. I like that term of what Zach O'Brien was saying of connectedness, because that does have that double entendre. Connectedness of staying close to your player but also being connected on the court. And speaking of being connected to a player, it's hard to do that against Jackie Young. Right. She is a particularly sizable guard, and she creates so much from her dribble. She's able to create space to be able to pull up. She also creates to be able to go up, go to the basket. Chelsea Gray, same thing. She uses her body to get down to her sweet spot, and then she just pulls up right in your face. It's incredibly. It's difficult to be able to stay connected to those players when they've got that size. I want to ask about the mismatches that the Liberty were trying to create. You saw that particularly early in the game. Jonquil Jones setting screens on guards, and it kept happening to Jackie. She got burned on it once where Jonquil Jones got an inside position on her, got an easy layup off the mismatch. She was able to post up Jackie Young. That makes sense. John Quayle Jones, Jackie Young. I'm gonna assume who's gonna win that battle, but she didn't win it every time. It wasn't so much of an issue that you thought that the Aces weren't handling it right, like the Liberty weren't continuing to go to it or continuing to take advantage of it. I was very impressed by this. Sabrina. I wanted to know, do you expect New York Liberty to try and exploit those switches more next game or do a better job of exploiting those?
- [25:31]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think you point out something really interesting, because at the start of the game, it seemed like every time Sab brought the ball up, she was trying to get a pick and roll with Jonquil Jones and Jackie Young. For all of her gifts defensively, I think screen navigation is not what she's best at. And Jonquill was setting some great screens, so it wasn't just that she couldn't, like, stay attached to. Sabrina was also. Jonquil is off the ball setting a screen. And, like, Maureen, like, cuts past Kelsey Plum or something to that effect. Like, J.J. was setting some excellent screens for your players, but it was that pick and roll that really, you know, Sabrina kept going to over and over again. And it seemed like the Aces were a little reluctant to switch at first because, like you said, you don't want to get that mismatch with Jackie Young in the post, but because the downside of not switching is you're just leaving SAB alone for a second. And as anyone who's watched Spring Unescu this season knows, like, that's all she needs to get up a three pointer. So I think once they realize, like, okay, we're going to have to switch just because these screens are too good to get through quick enough, what can we do to make it more difficult once that switch has already been established? Right. So pressure up on Sabrina. Make sure she can't make that pass into jj, like, dig at the ball. So if JJ gets the ball, then, like, she can't go up with it. The help comes really quickly. You have that backline defense with Asia Wilson, with Kia Stokes, and they were liberally helping off of Courtney Vandersloot, like, she was getting some open looks. I think they were trying not to leave Laney, but, I mean, they even left Stewie a couple times in the corner. Like, they were making sure that Jonquil was not going to be the one to beat them. So, like, there are gaps. Like, I'm not saying that there are no ways to beat the Aces defensive strategy, but I think they won the adjustment round in game one because they knew exactly how they wanted to contain, and New York wasn't moving the ball quickly enough to find the openings.
- [27:07]
Zena Keda
No, I completely agree with the fact that, you know, there was a little bit of difficulty trying to get around that screen, but I give Jackie Young the credit of exactly what you're saying. John Coel Jones sets some screens. She positions herself at an angle so well. And for those of you that have never played basketball or don't know what that feels like to set up a proper screen, there's an art to it because it's not just going out and just trying to put your body on someone. You have to be incredibly technical about the angle to which you're setting yourself up and also staying long enough for your guard to be able to utilize it right or whether you're slipping or whatever. But particularly if you're setting a hard screen, being able to create to angle it so that when your guard comes off of it, they've got space to do something and usually with Sabrina Unescu it's to put the ball up. But this game, it wasn't her that had the quick release. It was someone else. My girl Marine, we talked a little bit about. Maureen John is just doing the thing. She was the main reason I think that New York was up in the first half, that they were really in that game and had that energy. 12 of her points, her or 14 total I believe it was, came from off balance threes. I mean this, this woman was putting up shots that you don't really even see on the playground. Like it's crazy. She was doing this in a WNBA Finals game. Game 1 of the WNBA Finals. Sabrina Marin has played really well against the Aces all season. A fact that even Becky Hammond had to point out in her coaches interview. While she was a little bit quieter in the second half, she did damage in the first half. And we are all aware that letting her or really anyone in New York, but letting her coming off the bench and go off like that can dig a hole that sometimes can be too deep to overcome. Luckily the Aces, that wasn't the case for them this past Sunday. But it could be right. If you let Maureen go off like that and you get a deficit that is tough to overcome in the second half, you know that could be detrimental. How can you avoid potentially creating that scenario in the future games and minimize Marine's hot streaks?
- [29:33]
Sabrina Merchant
See, the thing with Marine is regular defense just doesn't work on her. Like you can think that you're, you know, forcing her to into some bad footwork or you know, you're playing up on her properly. She can fade to the left, she can fade to the right. She has these one legged runners. There was one three that she hit from the wing. Kelsey Plum literally just puts her hands up like I don't, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And I'm sure Becky Hammond felt the same way. Like there is no coverage for that. So it's one of those things where I credit the Aces for realizing that like hey, we're doing fine, like this is not anything that we're doing incorrectly schematically or you know, our defense is screwing up. It's just an incredibly special player doing unique things. And they did adjust their defense in the second half. I'll let Ben talk about that. But I think this is just like there's so much talent in the series that we didn't even talk about Marie and Johannes going into it. I Don't think, but it's kind of just a reminder of like, hey, there are some really cool players around the world that just play the game a little bit differently than you might imagine. And that she got to showcase her unique flair and style on the final stage was pretty awesome.
- [30:40]
Zena Keda
Oh, it was. And it was really cool. You know, LeBron tweeted out, just talking about she is a canon and just being that, it was just amazing to see someone like her, like you said, from a different part of the world getting her love, getting her shine on that stage. She's been been seen all season long. But I think right now there's a bigger spotlight obviously on the WNBA Finals that she is shining under and definitely deserve that. Ben, you've been seeing this sort of like globetrotter like play all season, but this is her. This isn't a gimmick. This is her, her style of play. She is capable of doing that. And still you don't expect someone to be putting up shots like that in game one of the WNBA Finals. It's bold and it is. It requires a lot of confidence and it requires a lot of just focus to be able to say, no, I got this, I'm good. Coach, do you expect to see more of this for the rest of the series?
- [31:40]
Ben Pickman
Honestly, I would expect like a little bit of scoring, but burst, but I don't really think so. Like, I think, you know, Sandy Rondello kind of acknowledged heading into the series that she probably should have played Marine Johannes more in that semifinal. And so it was not surprising to see her go to Marine early on. The thing that I'm interested with or I'm going to watch closely about how Sandy plays with the bench and it goes back to stopping the aces defensively is, you know, for better or worse, like because of New York step like New York. And Sandy has a number of different options that she could turn to in game two, three, four and potentially five, depending on how the series goes about how New York wants to play stylistically. Right. To slow down Las Vegas Aces. Do you play Marine instead of, you know, Sloot or Sabrina? Do you play bigger with Kayla Thornton? I wouldn't be surprised if she got more minutes in game two specifically. And it's just a matter of, I think like these kind of five minute stretches say that Sandy is going to try and get everything out of her bench players as she possibly can. And so I think like a really good game for Marine in game two is her playing like 12 minutes and having, you know, six or eight points just like in a flash and taking some offensive pressure off of, you know, the other players around her on court. But I don't really expect her to play like 20 minutes a game because, you know, she played 20 minutes in game one, and a lot of that was in the first half. But I don't know if that's necessarily like a great sign for New York because it means that, you know, you've had to pull back, presumably on Sloot or Sabrina Unescu. And I think Sloot is really important to how they execute on offense. And we all know what Sabrina can do, and we all know how important Benjulini is on defense, right? So I think kind of the, the. The best place or the role that Marina is really going to play might just be come in and like, provide us a punch for four minutes, five minutes at a time, and then come off and see how it goes. And just like almost like a hockey shift, you know, like coming in very quickly, giving it everything you can in that short stretch, and then coming off the ice. And I think that's kind of her role in this series because I think if she's on the floor for too long defensively, like, they will start to hunt her, the aces will, and that will have implications on the defensive end of the floor. I mean, we saw in the second half, you know, Las Vegas blitzed her and, you know, sent two defenders at her on ball screens, and it forced her to just playmake a little more and give the basketball up, and that is fine, and she's capable of doing that. She talked about how she. She's like, seen defenses like that in the past, but, you know, if they're gonna blitz, you might would rather have Sabrina Unescu on the court. You know, if they're gonna go over two screens so that, you know, suddenly the. The math is a little bit different. And Sabrina ball gets back to her and she's taking an open three or Slooter attack into the basket. So, you know, I think Marine is. And Becky used this phrase of like, you know, she's just like a gun, you know, that just like pops off. That was the phrase she used in the. In the late August matchup. And I think that's really true. So it was super exciting and it was a great performance, and it's something she's capable of doing. But, you know, I don't necessarily think, like, we should be counting on it. And I don't necessarily think, like 25 minutes, you know, she played 20 minutes in game one. 25 minutes of Maureen Johannes in game two. I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing for the New York Liberty. If she gets that run, it will.
- [35:04]
Zena Keda
Be very interesting what Marine does when she gets back to barclays in Game 3 in front of her home crowd and gets super energized by them. And you know Barclays loves Maureen and they love her popping off like a gun, as Becky said, and so very interested to see what she does in her minutes when she's back home in Brooklyn. So last I want to talk on the Liberty is about our girl Benijah. Ben, you said that Benijah Laney was going to be an X factor for New York and I completely agree with that. Her team needs her to be a disruption on the defensive end and she needs to also be dropping about 15 to 20 points on the offensive end. While she was active on defense, she did a good job trying to stay in front of Gray as much as she could, try to deny her entry passes, et cetera, forcing the ball to go through Plum and Young. More so I think Sabrina, that you mentioned that on your recap that's live right now on the Athletic. Gray was still able to kind of control the situation, get her dribble down into that mid range game and get her points. She got 20 at the end of the day on the other side of the ball, Benijah only had 11 points and as you mentioned both of you in the recap that you guys have, she didn't get a bucket until the end of the first quarter and didn't get the ball until the third quarter in the post, which is a great spot for her to get the ball because she dominates with her size against other against other forwards and other smaller guards, especially when they switch. She's got to be more involved in their offense. But the Aces did a good job of diminishing her impact. How can New York work to counter that and get her more involved?
- [36:48]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think it's a few things. One, and I'm not to disagree with the whole premise, I actually don't think, and I think we've stressed this, benjulaney is an X factor. Like I think we're at the point and this is something Sabrina and I have talked about, they need her to be good if they want to win a championship. Like if she is not, they won't win. And like she's been so consistent and if she just doesn't perform or they don't get her involved, they will not win the championship. And I think it is pretty much that simple. I think Sabrina, in her takeaways used the phrase, like, Benaj Elainey is a. Is a barometer for the New York Liberty. And I think that's really well said because if she has it, they probably will win. And if she doesn't or. Or she doesn't perform up to par, they don't get her involved in the way it's kind of expected. Like in game one, they will lose. You know, that play that. That you referenced, Xena, specifically, in which Laney got that post touch and that post layup that was out of a timeout and it was intentional that, like, we're going to get Banaja a post touch and she's going to, you know, use her size and physicality and strength and skill around the basket to get a bucket. And I think we saw that, like, okay, they're being intentional about getting her hoop, and they did not do that enough. And Courtney Vandersloot recognized that. I think, you know, Benijah only took eight field goal attempts for the entire game. I think she took nine field goal attempts in the first quarter of game four of the semifinal series. Right. She was 0 of 3 from 3. That I think is a rarity. And so they need her to do more. And I think we will see them, you know, try and either get her more post touches, get her more points off back cuts, just get her more involved because they recognize that this is something they need to rely on on the offensive end. I don't think they're so stressed, you know, about her defense. Like, you know, I thought she played pretty solid defense, especially early on in the first half. And I thought, you know, she certainly set the tone for them early on. Just being physical, stepping up to the plate against Chelsea Gray. I mean, we saw them really staring each other down early in that game, But I think it is on the offensive end that they're really going to try and involve her because they recognize how important it is to get her involved and how, frankly, how much of a necessity that is if they want to win game two.
- [38:51]
Zena Keda
Before we keep going on this conversation, I want to pause really quickly and I want to have a conversation on what it means to be an X factor because I feel like I keep coming up against this. I. I just recently was on Brother from another on Peacock with Lo Drear and Natalie Eady of and we were talking about, like, what is an X factor or what can be considered an X factor for both teams and how you define an X factor. To me, I feel like An X factor is situational. Like, what is the thing that needs to happen for a particular outcome to come about, a particular positive outcome to come about, the thing that we would focus on, etc. Is, you know, X. To me, bet Nigelaney playing well, scoring well, particularly, but playing well defensively and offensively is an X factor. Jonquil Jones having her double fact, double, double is an X factor. I don't necessarily think that that means that they're not incorporated in the success, the regular success of the New York Liberty. But I think that it's very key to start out this, particularly to win this finals and get that championship. Those two, to me are X factors. They have to do these things in order to get the positive outcome. How do you see the definition of what is an X factor?
- [40:17]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I look at it more as kind of players or skill sets that are a little bit more uncertain. That could happen or could not happen. You know, I look at Marine Johannes, I think she's a perfect example. Like, to me, she. You said she's an X factor. I would say, yeah, you know, she could get 14 points in a game or she could get zero points in a game. You really have no idea what you're going to get or you're just not sure. You know, I think you can point to someone like, you know, Alicia Clark, like, you know what you're going to get defensively, but on the offensive end, like, if you wanted to pinpoint her three point shooting, right, like she struggled a little bit early on in the year, Becky Hammond hyped her up and said she's shooting the ball well. But like, you know, someone like Alicia's three point shooting, if she makes four threes in a game, like that is a huge swing and if she makes zero, that could be indicative of something else and you just don't really know of what you're going to get. Whereas, like, I think Benagiolini is just kind of a, like a star. Like, she's just consistent and a star. And so, you know, I think, you know, saying they need a lot out of Banaj is like saying they need Stewie to perform well or JJ to perform well. In my mind, like, I think, you know, because Benija Laney might not have the profile of some of those players. She is underrated or maybe not discussed historically in the same manner. But in the construction of this team, they need her to succeed much like they need those players to succeed. Whereas, like, with Marine, they could still win a championship if she, you know, plays six minutes a game and has two points for the rest of the series. And so. But they're more likely to win a championship if she scores 15 a game in 15 minutes per game. So I kind of pinpoint her as more of an X factor overall. I don't know, Sabrina, do you kind of agree with that definition at all?
- [42:01]
Sabrina Merchant
No, I. I agree 100. Because I would never call Stewie an X factor, even though you need everything she does to win. And I would never call Asia Wilson an X factor, even though you need her to score, you need her to defend. But I think what you said about uncertainty, right? Like, there are things that you can rely on that you are part of the winning formula. Like, New York needs Jonquil to offensive rebound. They need Stewie to score. They need to defend well. They need Benijah to score. Like, all those things are just part of the equation. And then you add one extra variable like that X, like you were talking about Xena, and that's what takes them over the top of a great team like the Aces. And that, to me, is maybe Jonquil's hitting a couple of threes, maybe Marines popping off, you know, maybe Kayla Thornton comes in and has a nice little shift. Those are all X factors to me. Whereas the Aces, like, again, their formula, you need those core four to do well, otherwise you're not going to win. But, like, if Kia Stokes scores a bucket, like, that's an X factor. If Alicia Clark hits some threes, that's an X factor. So I think, Ben, that is pretty much exactly where I land on that usage of the term.
- [42:59]
Ben Pickman
That's Sabrina showing off her Duke education right there, breaking it down with formulas and adding in variables to the equation.
- [43:06]
Zena Keda
I very much appreciate the explanation. I definitely agree with you there. Even as you were talking, I looked up the definition of an X factor, and they say it's a circumstance, quality, or person that has a strong but unpredictable influence. And, I mean, Sabrina, you named Benijah the New York X factor in your recap in this situation. Did you see her as an X factor going into the finals? Or, like, what. How did you. How are you looking at her as a barometer for their success in that regard?
- [43:43]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, it kind of just means that, like, they didn't have that variable, right? Like, she didn't bring what they needed to have to the equation, right? Because she has scored at least 19 points in five out of the six playoff games coming into the finals, and they won all those games. And then obviously, she had that stinker in game one. One Against Connecticut, she only scored three points, one of nine shooting was abused by Dewana Bonner defensively, and they lost that game pretty handily. And so you come into this game, I didn't even realize Banaja was playing for a lot of it on offense. Like, she had a couple threes that just missed. It's interesting because the Liberty have had these slow starts offensively, and Banija's sort of been the one to settle them down and take over early to, you know, just get them poised. Like, she's. She's the one who just gets things going at the beginning. Like, Stewie's had slow starts. Sleuth's had some slow starts. But Benijah has been consistently good at the beginning of games. And it's almost like because they were playing so well offensively, they didn't feel the need to feature her. And then by the time they got to a point where, oh, well, like, we kind of need Benijah to do her thing again, she was just not in the rhythm or the flow of the game. And I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily that New York was scoring so well, but it also just change the way that their flow has tended to work during this postseason. And I do think that you're like, Ben said that ato to get Banaja the ball in the post. I think that's going to be a more deliberate point of emphasis going forward. But I also think, like, the Aces knew that, hey, Benijah's been killing it. Maybe this is a point of emphasis for us and we should try to get her uninvolved, even if it comes at the cost of, you know, Maureen Johannes. Pop enough.
- [45:17]
Zena Keda
Yeah. I am now seeing, like, for X factor and looking at Benajulaney as an X factor, I still think she's an X factor from the perspective of if she doesn't do the things that she's supposed to do, like being a star, that is detrimental for the Liberty. Like, I think that just like you said, when she doesn't do those things, it is a strong missing factor. It's a strong missing variable. You get John Jones in foul trouble and she's not on the floor boarding. That is a strong missing variable for the Liberty. I think more so than a Stewie and Sabrina not scoring. I think those two performing the way that they. They can perform and they're capable of performing is so much more of a strong variable needed for the equation to work out for a Liberty win. And I think that's how I'm looking at it. But I appreciate you guys walking me through that because I did need that, like, kind of breakdown is the understanding X factors and X, Y and Z. I'm still thinking. But, Nija, you're my X factor for the lips.
- [46:23]
Sabrina Merchant
I will say when Jonquill was asked about being an X factor, she kind of like, recoiled at the thought. Right, Ben? Like when you noticed that for you.
- [46:30]
Zena Keda
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And I think it's because there's this connotation around being an X factor as being unpredictable, as being unreliable, as being inconsistent. Whereas maybe this is a flaw of mine, but I don't necessarily see it as that. I see it as it's key. X plus Y equals Z. If X is missing, we can't get to Z. So that's how I see it is. It's integral. It's very important that we have this variable as opposed to it's inconsistent. But you're right that that's the definition of it, right? So can't argue with that completely. Cannot argue with that. But either way, we will see, particularly with Benijah, what she can do to step it up offensively, how they're going to counter her involvement, or lack of involvement really, in the offense seen in Game one. There is another game to be played. I want to get your final closing thoughts on Game two and what adjustments you're expecting to see from the Liberty and the Aces. Obviously, the Aces feeling good. They're going to play at home again in Game two. But what are you expecting to see in terms of what the Liberty are going to do to bounce back from Game one? Ben, you go first.
- [47:47]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think we've rattled off a few of the things they're going to, I think, get benijelaney involved more. I think we're going to see Courtney Vandersloot be more aggressive. I think they're going to try, you know, I think they might play Kayla Thornton more on the defensive end and just try and counter the Aces with a little bit more size and physicality. I mean, I think we're going to see New York play with the desperation, knowing that they can't go down 2 0. But the other thing that I think, you know, we haven't talked about it. We're at the, you know, 40, 45 minute mark of the show and we still haven't really said her name or really talked about it. It's Brianna Stewart. Like, she is the reigning league MVP. And yes, she led the New York Liberty with 21 points and had nine rebounds in game one. But, you know, we might need, like, Stewie to have a vintage 35 pointer here, like, get a 35, you know, something truly spectacular considering the circumstance. And so, you know, I'm interested to see does she step up. And, you know, I'm not worried about her being productive. Like, I think she's going to be productive in game, too. But backs against the wall here, you can't go down two. Oh, you're basically conceding the finals or you're making it almost. You know, historically, it's never happened to return come back from a 20 deficit. So, you know, the other person to watch is maybe the best player in the league. And, you know, I think maybe you can say, how is doing X factor? Like, what. What level is she going to get to? We know she's going to be great, but she might, you know, need to play one of the best games she's ever played, frankly, in game two. And if she does that, I think they'll win, but, you know, it might be time for that. This is the finals. You can't go down.02. So that is something else I have my eye on.
- [49:28]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, for me, I just think the Liberty need to play better. It's not super, you know, groundbreaking here. They just weren't good enough defensively, and I think Stewie and JJ basically did their jobs. I mean, I don't know that Stewie necessarily outplayed Asia Wilson, which I think is going to have to happen for the Liberty to win more games. But they've won games this year where Asia has been fine and Stewie has struggled from the fields, and the Liberty Guards have taken over. So I really think they just have to figure out how to keep their players in front, or we're just going to see more junk defenses against the Aces. Because the amount of dribble penetration that Jackie and Kelsey were getting, it was just sending the New York defense into rotation. They couldn't figure out where to go from there. The Driving Kicks were leading in three, so that's why you see 41% shooting from distance. I mean, it's just as simple as trying to keep your assignment in front. And they could not do that. And I don't know that's necessarily some adjustment that they need to make other than do better. And we've seen the Liberty do better. I feel like I've had this rant on the podcast before, but I think we need to see that happen with New York. They are a capable defensive team. They came to play against Washington. They came to play against Connecticut. This is obviously a better opponent, just a stacked, stacked backcourt. But that's what they have too. And you know they have to come after the challenge because like Ben said, you know, teams that are down.02 in a best of five series in WM playoffs have never won. I think it's been 17 times. So you just can't do that. And yeah, theoretically I guess it's not a must win game because you could apparently win the last three but nobody's done it and you were probably not going to beat the Aces three times in a row. So they just have to come out of here with the split and I know that they know the urgency. They didn't seem like too beaten up by the fact that they lost one game. You know, like they've shown the ability to bounce back against the Aces. They have not lost lost two games in a row the entire season. So I would expect a much better effort from the Liberty even if it's not super different schematically just from them being better and executing smarter at what they are already doing.
- [51:23]
Zena Keda
A definitely more inspired game coming from them you can expect on Wednesday night. Well, as always Ben, Sabrina, I always learn something new from you guys and I just appreciate you guys breaking it down, giving me some insight, giving us that, that good analysis of the game of just like what to look for. I know what I will be on Wednesday night. It will be in front of my TV watching ESPN because that is when Game 2 between the Liberty and the Asus goes down. It will be 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. So definitely make sure to tune in. But before we go, I just want to go really, really really quickly off the script for today's off the script. I just want to give a big shout out to our WNBA girlies that are doing the thing in the media broadcast space. It is incredibly helpful to be able to hear the game and the breakdown from those that are doing it and those that have done it. I particularly am thinking of course Jeanne Aguima K doing her thing on WNBA Countdown. But there was also Haley Jones of the Atlanta Dream that took on the broadcaster title on NBA TV and did a wonderful job. And now as of October 9th we just heard Aaliyah Boston will be an in studio analyst, analysis analyst for the Big Ten Network. So very, very exciting things coming out. They're not obviously the only ones that have been able to do this. Of course we get the pleasure of seeing Rebecca Lobo being doing this for over 20 years but you can see that there's a way that they explain the game, the things that they catch, the things that they notice is always super helpful for those of us watching at home or those of us going to the games and trying to pick up on different things and trying to understand what's happening within the game and how it can impact the outcome. So I'm just really excited for this new generation of media talent coming directly from the rosters of the wnba and I just know we're going to learn a lot more when their minds are put into it. So shout out Congratulations to Haley on her first job, amazing job on NBA tv. Very excited for Aaliyah Boston this season to do her thing on Big Ten. Cheney, Agui McKay continuing to hold it down just across the board on WNBA Countdown, Rebecca Lobo, all of the former players just, just doing a great, great job. So shout out to them. That's my off the script for today. For the Athletic, I'm Zena Keda encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game. Thanks for joining us. Until next time, guys.
- [54:09]
Sabrina Merchant
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Zena Keda
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Sunshine
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Zena Keda
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Sunshine
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Ben Pickman
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Zena Keda
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Zena Keda
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Ben Pickman
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Zena Keda
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