← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
How Angel Reese Built a Brand Bigger Than Basketball
00:52:26
Loading summary
Transcript138 lines
- [00:01]
Shakiya Taylor
Oh.
- [00:01]
Sabrina Merchant
Could this vintage store be any cuter? Right.
- [00:04]
Zena Kada
And the best part, they accept Discover.
- [00:06]
Sabrina Merchant
Except Discover in a little place like this. I don't think so, Jennifer.
- [00:10]
Zena Kada
Oh, yeah.
- [00:11]
Commercial Narrator
Huh?
- [00:11]
Zena Kada
Discover's accepted where I like to shop. Come on, baby. Get with the times.
- [00:16]
Shakiya Taylor
Right.
- [00:17]
Sabrina Merchant
So we shouldn't get the parachute pants.
- [00:19]
Zena Kada
These are making a comeback, I think. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [00:30]
Commercial Narrator
As a small business owner, you don't really get to clock out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when it's time to hire, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. It's super easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and manage qualified candidates all in one place. LinkedIn can even help you write your job description and get it in front of the right people. And promoted jobs get three times more qualified applicants. 72% of small businesses say LinkedIn helps them find higher quality candidates. And you can double your reach just by adding the hashtag hiringframe to your profile photo. Find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com jobsearch that's LinkedIn.com J-O B S, E, A, R, C, H. Terms and conditions apply.
- [01:30]
Guys, it's no use putting it off.
- [01:32]
Zena Kada
The best time for an underwear refresh is now. Tommy John underwear is designed for a perfect fit that stays put all day. There's zero chafe, thanks to four times more stretch than competing brands and their innovative horizontal quickdraw.
- [01:46]
Commercial Narrator
Fly is a game changer. With over 30 million pairs sold, there
- [01:49]
Zena Kada
are thousands of men out there more comfortable than you. Don't settle for less. Go to tommyjohn.com today for 25% off your first order with code COMFORT. That's tommyjohn.comfort. tommy John Comfort.
- [02:02]
Commercial Narrator
Perfected.
- [02:18]
Zena Kada
Hello, everyone, and welcome to no off season. I'm Zena Kada.
- [02:21]
Sabrina Merchant
And I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [02:23]
Zena Kada
And today on the show, we're diving into the business of Angel Reese and how she's built a brand that goes far beyond basketball. Joining me for the conversation is NBA writer Shakia Taylor, who recently wrote about Angel's brand Blow Up. So we're going to talk about that, and we'll also discuss her return to unrivaled action as Rose BC aims to work their way back into the postseason and hopefully get some extra Boards out of Reese. But first, it is deal or no deal time. I didn't sing in on it because I don't think there's any deal happening. So I just want to temper my expectations and temper yours. There's still no agreement in place, Sabrina. Negotiations are continuing. They are continuing to move through this extended period. It has been a long time now since that original opt out. They've gone back and forth between the players union and the league. So before we get the latest on all these CBA talks, let's reset the stage a little bit. Sabrina, where do the negotiations between the players union and the league begin? And where do we stand now?
- [03:25]
Sabrina Merchant
So I'm going to keep this pretty focused on revenue share because there are a lot of details that are at play in this collective bargaining negotiation. The housing, retirement benefits, minimum facility standards, all these things. But really the number one thing that is preventing, I think, a deal from happening right now is how the money is split up between the players and the owners. Let's start there. In the previous collective bargaining agreement, the way the salary cap was set was it was fixed over the life of the CBA. So from 2020 to 2026, there were fixed increases, no matter how much revenue the league brought in. And then there was a revenue sharing agreement that kicked in if the league hit these cumulative targets. Those targets were never hit because the first two years of the agreement were during pandemic seasons. Really limited the amount of revenue that was brought in. But that's the basis fixed salary increases, no matter how the business of the league was doing. And then a revenue sharing agreement based on targets. So when the two sides came to the table to negotiate this new collective bargaining agreement, the players wanted an agreement that was based on gross revenue share. We talk about BRI on the men's side and the NBA, but essentially all of the revenue that is brought in, they wanted 40% of that revenue, which is what Neko Gumike said on an appearance with Kerry Champion and Jamel Hill on a podcast earlier this week. 40% revenue share from the players. The league kind of started with a similar fixed salary increase to what was already in the previous cba. So just think about how diametrically opposed we are at the start of this negotiation. Right?
- [04:59]
Zena Kada
We heard you, we heard you, but we're not moving.
- [05:02]
Sabrina Merchant
One is basically the same system as before, but with more reasonable revenue sharing targets because, well, frankly, the league is bringing a lot more revenue and the other one is like, no, let's rip that up. Full revenue share. Now we've seen the players come down. Their revenue sharing is now 25% in year one of this agreement. And it scales to 27.5% over the life of the CBA, so down from 40% to about 27.5%. But still the same basic structure of we want to share in the total revenue of the WNBA and the league has changed from their fixed salary proposal to a salary structure that is modeled by revenue share. Right. They're taking what they call the net revenue, which is. I shouldn't say they call it. They're taking a term that we'll refer to as net revenue. They're taking a portion of without expenses and then using that to determine the salary cap. And so there is no limit on how high the salaries can go based on that revenue sharing model. But it does result in a smaller salary cap than what the players are proposing because the players are getting a smaller share of the revenue. It is a little bit closer to 15% based on what the league is proposing. And you know, again, 27.5% based on what the player's proposing. So what that results in is about a $4 million gap in the projected salary caps for each team.
- [06:20]
Zena Kada
Yeah.
- [06:21]
Commercial Narrator
Woo.
- [06:22]
Zena Kada
And the thing that you mentioned casually, expenses. This word is really sensitive in this conversation, mainly because we don't know what those expenses are. And I'm whispering because I don't know if the league is. Listen, but this is the main issue when you're talking about gross revenue versus net revenue. I would imagine the players would be more willing to understand why the league wants to first get all the expenses taken care of before they pass it out in terms of their revenue. If they knew what the expenses were being covered. And of course, we can assume it's things like facilities, it's things like flights, it's things like resources that you've alluded to. But the players are like, we don't think it's $4 million less than what we think we're capable of bringing in in terms of revenue and getting a piece of. So the league has to figure that part out of it. If you don't want to clarify what those buckets of revenue are, how do you get to a point where the players are understanding that expenses have to be paid and then that's when they tap into the revenue. What has lately been said in this last proposal, because as you mentioned, they were diametrically opposed from the very beginning. It feels like they're getting closer. Yet that's not what's being said.
- [07:51]
Sabrina Merchant
Agreed. It is not what is being said at all. So just to provide, I guess, a little bit of clarity on the expenses of it all, the league is offering new minimum facility standards, including exclusive locker rooms, private use of weight rooms and treatment areas, family rooms during games. Things that might sound very basic if you're an NBA fan, but these are things that have not historically existed in the wnba. They're also increasing team staffing requirements with relation to physicians, trainers, physical therapists, things like that. Charter flights are officially part of the CBA now, which were just added by the league over the last two years, but not in the official document. Now it's going to be in the document. So that is another expense that the league is incurring. More performance bonuses for awards, playoff wins. There's a recognition payment for WNBA Legends, more 401k contributions, protections for pregnant and injured players. You know, like salary cap exemptions in that case. So those are some of the things I think, that are going into that bucket of expenses that the league is taking out prior to sharing the revenue with the players. So like, you can say that you're putting all of these things into the expense bucket, but the players believe that they're not given an actual chance to audit those expenses. And it is a little disconcerting if you're a player and you're being told that, hey, we're going to be able to share in the revenue after expenses when your league has been telling you, oh, we operate in a loss. So like, where are the money coming from if you operate at a loss? How is there even net, you know, to share in? So I think that's part of where the disconnect lies. And we're seeing that pretty significantly in the language that has come out of from both sides. So as a reminder, the league submitted its most recent proposal to the players on February 6th. The players responded with a proposal on this previous Tuesday, February 17th. So the players latest proposal was met with a response from the league that said the players association's latest proposal remains unrealistic and would cause hundreds of millions of dollars of losses for our teams. This is after again that commissioner Adam Silver of the NBA had said that we need to have some sort of urgency. And the players were ticked off by that statement because they had waited six weeks for the league to propose its own matching proposal. In trying to figure out how the players have responded to this latest round of comments from the league, Terry Jackson, the executive director of the WNBA Players association, you know, connected with her players over the course of the week and said it is unfathomable that anyone would question our commitment to negotiations and desire to get a deal done. You know, what we have proposed is very realistic. What the league and the teams have done is played games. So.
- [10:39]
Zena Kada
Ooh, that's not a.
- [10:42]
Sabrina Merchant
But this is the messaging. That is the players association. And so you can just tell that there are lines being drawn between both sides.
- [10:50]
Zena Kada
Right. This is getting tense. I mean, it has been tense for a while.
- [10:56]
Sabrina Merchant
We kick this off like Nathisa Collier saying that WNBA had the worst leadership in the world.
- [10:59]
Zena Kada
That's right.
- [11:00]
Sabrina Merchant
Things have not happened since then. I would say.
- [11:03]
Zena Kada
Yeah, it's the language. I know. And some people are gonna be like, you know, unfathomable or unrealistic. These aren't crazy words. Yeah, this is a negotiation. And you're saying some of these things. Of course, Terry Jackson's statements being private, but private to the members that are going to give the green light or have given the green light for a str. That's. Those are fighting words. Right? Like, this is your leader saying, we are fighting for you, and what we're looking for isn't unreasonable. And it's unfathomable that they would say that we're not trying to negotiate with them and then to threaten us with the timeline. The thing is, the players have already said that they're willing to wait, AKA they've given the WNBPA the opportunity to say, if we need to strike, we'll strike. So what are the biggest hurdles right now to avoid a strike? Because I don't think anybody. The fans don't want that. The players want to play, and of course, the league wants to put on the product. And I'll tell you what, those networks, they want their product to put on tv. So what's gonna be the hurdle to get over it?
- [12:06]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, at the risk of being redundant, it's this money thing. Right. I think both sides can say that they have made a lot of movement from their original offers. Whether you believe in the validity of their original offers is an entirely different question. But you think about how the wnbpa, in their recent proposal, you know, coming down a significant percentage in their revenue share, while the WNBA has, you know, put out a proposal that gets you up to a 500 plus average salary in year one of the agreement, $1.3 million maximum salary in year one of the agreement. I mean, we're like two years removed from $1.3 million being the salary cap of a full team in the wnba. How much one player is going to earn in the WNBA's proposals. So both sides believe that they have made significant moves to meet as part of this negotiation. And yet there is still a huge gap in the middle. And I think a lot of it is the players don't feel like they're being taken seriously.
- [13:07]
Shakiya Taylor
Right.
- [13:07]
Sabrina Merchant
When they get told that their proposals are unrealistic. And again, more of the language that NECA used in that podcast, or just them not understanding the business. They clearly understand the business. This is their life's work. And then the WMBA is staring down the barrel of like, hey, you know, we've completely ripped up the previous salary system. Like, it's entirely different. Look at all of this money that is coming your way. Look at all of these benefits that are coming your way. We're trying to create a sustainable business and make sure that people want to continue investing in this product for years and years to come. And again, they just remain fundamentally at odds over how to even talk about the money that is being shared between both parties.
- [13:51]
Zena Kada
Man, this is crazy. I'm curious, when we think about these proposals, I want to be positive just slightly. What are the things that have been agreed upon? Like, where have they actually met? In the middle, right?
- [14:11]
Sabrina Merchant
So it's hard to say that things have been fully agreed upon because everything still relies on, like, well, how much money goes into these things. Right? Yeah. I will say that it does appear that there are going to be developmental player spots in the WNBA. So beyond the 12 players on a regular roster, each team will have the option to have two developmental players. Which means in the event that, like, you know, you have injuries, you don't have to, like, go find a hardship player who joins your team day of the game. Like, this is a player who has been practicing with you the entire season. They know your system, they know your playbook, they're comfortable, and they can just come in. And again, how that spot gets salaried, how that player gets housed, those are questions that still have to be negotiated, but those two players will exist. So if you think about all of the team expansion that is coming the WMA's way, right? Like, 24 players being added through Portland and Toronto, now we get another 15 times 230 players added in these developmental player spots. And that's just a really cool option for young players to figure out the league, you know, learn how to succeed in the league without worrying about, hey, like, I'm gonna get cut, because we need to field like a real roster, right? So I think. I think that's gonna be really Cool for wnba, Obviously, this is not a full developmental league. Right. These players are not gonna be playing against one another on separate teams. There's just not enough, you know, personnel for that. But sure it is. Just think about being able to practice against more players, you know, like, and having the option to just figure out the wnba. I think it's. I think it's really cool. And it's not like, you know, there are a lot of summer leagues in the world where, like, you'll be choosing between, oh, can I go play in Europe for an X amount of money versus this. Like, WNBA is one of the few realistic summer options for these players. So, yeah, again, yeah, I think it's just more opportunity, and it can only really benefit the WNBA to have, you know, a player not flying in from across the country or, like, across the world that doesn't.
- [16:03]
Zena Kada
Right. 1,000%. That doesn't know your place, that doesn't have anywhere to live or sleep or trying to figure out where to do that. You know, temporary housing. It's a whole thing. I will take this as my opportunity to say shout out to the wpbl, the women's professional basketball league out in the bay. They are a whole full functioning league that exists during the summer that the W could partner with if they wanted to create a developmental league. But I'm gonna. That's my plug. That's just my plug. I really like that league out in the bay, but. Okay, we shall see. Still no deal. Not only no deal. It just doesn't feel like they're nice right now.
- [16:38]
Sabrina Merchant
Things the tension has prepared, remember, for so long. We do have proposals, and there have been two proposals over the last two weeks, so. Progress.
- [16:47]
Zena Kada
Look at us making moves. Okay, this is good. This is good. Well, we'll keep it, of course. Keep you all up to date with everything that's going on with the cba. Thank you, Sabrina. Not only bringing us everything that we know about these proposals, but breaking a little bit of news, I think, with that Terry Jackson piece as well. Thank you. All right, guys, on the other side of this, NBA writer Shakiah Taylor joins me to talk about being Angel Reese. And get into that bag. Let's get into it. Thy ticket lady, Jennifer of Coolidge. Well, many thanks, good sir. Here is my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Get it with the times. With the times. You're playing the loot. Yeah. And it sounds pretty good, right? Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report. Your leadership team is demanding AI automation. Your employees are already using it, just not the tools you approved. Shadow AI is spreading across your organization, creating security vulnerabilities, compliance risks and fragmented solutions you can't control. But what if your teams could innovate faster while staying completely secure? That's what ARIA delivers, a unified platform that combines AI, security, governance and orchestration so you never have to choose between innovation and protection. Take control today and embrace Enterprise AI. Visit aeria.com to learn more. That's airia.com
- [18:21]
Commercial Narrator
if you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why, hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering. With on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [18:57]
Zena Kada
I am very excited to be joined by NBA writer Shakiya Taylor for the Athletic. She's written an amazing story called the Business of Angel Reese which you can find on our site right now. So definitely go check that out. Shakiya girl, it's been long enough. Welcome to no off season.
- [19:14]
Shakiya Taylor
I'm so excited to be talking about this with you.
- [19:17]
Zena Kada
Yeah, this is so cool. Like I want to get into first everything about your piece. For those of us that came into the basketball space first earlier on, before this new generation, we look to the likes of Angel Reese and we're inspired by this. Like this is super cool that a woman basketball player, a black female basketball player can utilize her excellence on the court to be able to transcend spaces and to create all these different opportunities. She has expanded her brand beyond the court. Acting, modeling and this major like major business moves, owning teams, having her shoe be a sponsored shoe for a basketball league overseas. I mean this is, we're going to get into all of this, but can you take us through the process of how you even got to this piece? How did this all come together?
- [20:09]
Shakiya Taylor
Believe it or not, this piece came from a conversation with an editor. The editor of this piece. We were just, you know, having one of those check ins. What's going on? What are you seeing? What are you enjoying around, you know, basketball? And it got to like Angel Reese is everywhere. She is doing everything. Why is no one writing about that? Right? And like that's kind of where it came from. It was just quite literally a check in with the editor of the piece. Like, hey, and, you know, angel web is popping up in the most random places. Like, why is she at a boxing match? Oh, wait, you know, why is she here? Oh, wait. Like, it really became like, okay, she is the basketball it girl of the moment right now. Just seizing every opportunity possible.
- [21:01]
Zena Kada
And, you know, there are so many athletes that are seizing every opportunity possible right now. In the advent of social media, it feels like there's so many different people that you could have done a piece like this on, but it feels. It feels different. With Angel Reese, why did you feel like it was important to be able to tell her story and tell it in this way?
- [21:20]
Shakiya Taylor
First, I want to say I would love to tell more stories like this. I think the business side of sports, particularly from the women's hoops perspective, is incredibly interesting because it's a newer space, right? Like, things are evolving very, very quickly. The game went from very popular to incredibly popular to massively popular in. In a very, very quick fashion. So Angel's story is a little bit different, right? Like, there are a number of very successful young women coming up in the nil generation right now. Some have gone pro, some have yet to go pro, but we kind of have some massive expectations. But where Angel's story is kind of unique is she's using detractors also to
- [22:12]
Zena Kada
come up, like, yes, using the haters, right?
- [22:18]
Shakiya Taylor
That's something that I don't think we see too much. In fact, we probably tell people, like, ignore the haters. Ignore the hate. You know? But Angel's like, no, actually, if you're gonna talk about me, I'm gonna join the conversation. And that's just really, really cool to see from a young woman, from a young black woman, Someone who is just like, I'm me. I'm here. This is what I. A lot of celebrities, they celebrity, right? Like, they keep to themselves. We don't see them unless they have something coming out. But angel is the opposite of that. She is very much so active. She is on social media. She is very visible. It's hard to forget about her because she doesn't disappear.
- [23:03]
Zena Kada
She positions herself incredibly well, whether it's at these tentpole events, whether it's in conversations online. Like, she finds a way to speak and to be seen in a way that it's not overwhelming. Like, it's not too much because it's not so much in one particular space. She spaces herself out pretty well, in my opinion. But when I think about what you were just talking about, not only do we not see a lot of people lean into haters, we definitely don't see that on the women's side. Right. Like, it feels like Angel. And as you told the story, you talk a little bit about the moment that kind of had her boom in the game against Caitlin Clark during the March Madness, the Final Four. The you can't see me motion right hand and face gesture towards Caitlin as they went on to beat Iowa and then went on to win a national championship. This is. Excuse me. That was in the championship game, right? Like, that was a moment everyone was watching. There's something about leaning into being the villain that Angel Reese does really well on top of being everyone's hero. And we don't see that balance often for women.
- [24:22]
Shakiya Taylor
I have written a few times in the past about this very thing. For some reason, there's this environment around women's sports. They can't talk trash. They can't beef with each other. They can't play physical. They have to just be like, I don't know, girls. And first of all, that's so far from the truth. These are competitors. I don't even think they get out there and think about anything other than, you know, I'm trying to win. You know, we hear Hoopers say, like, I'm a dog. They mean that. They mean that.
- [24:56]
Zena Kada
Yes.
- [24:57]
Shakiya Taylor
This is not like, this is not like, I'm trying to be precious. I'm, you know, whatever. Like, sure, you have some of them who may do their makeup, you know, maybe keep their hair together on the court, but like, yeah, it's like, yeah, I'm pretty, but I'm trying to beat you. I am trying to be the best. And when you get to the wnba, this is the elite, you know, this is elite competition. This is hoops. Hoops. So I don't understand that. They must be sweet and kind. And angel takes that and kind of throws it back at them. Like, absolutely. You don't like me, that's cool. I'm going to use it to fuel
- [25:34]
Zena Kada
my success and to monetize it as well. But before I'm happy, you talk about, this is hoops. Hoops, okay? This is real basketball. Because that's where angel really started. I think a lot of folks first saw Angel Reese when she did the gesture in the 2023 final, not realizing one, she had not always been at lsu. She had been in Maryland before that. But this is also someone that had been in the Team USA circuits. Like, she was Always a very good basketball player. Talk to me a little bit about how she was able to use hoops, one continuing elevation her in her sport, but then using that elevation to build her empire.
- [26:13]
Shakiya Taylor
If you go back and I know you know this, but if other people go back and look and you look at, like the AAU circuit with like, Paige and all the other young stars, Angel's right there with them.
- [26:23]
Zena Kada
She's in the mix. Right. She's taking photos with them. They've known. People forget that Caitlyn and Angel have known each other for a very long time before that moment. Exactly. Yeah.
- [26:33]
Shakiya Taylor
So she's right there with them. She's in the mix. She's in the conversation. And so through the years you had this class that real hoop heads have been following, they've been keeping up. I learned through other basketball fans, like, hey, angel was also really good at volleyball.
- [26:54]
Zena Kada
That's right.
- [26:55]
Shakiya Taylor
And so when you factor in like, oh, she was good at volleyball, she chose basketball, the volleyball skill set starts to pop out to you. You start really keen paying attention to those things. So she definitely has some skill and has been building momentum for a long time even. I remember when she transferred, people were discussing the fact that Angel Reese was leaving Maryland to go to lsu. I don't know if folks were really locked in at that point yet, but this has been a career kind of years in the making. And you can tell that she knew or her parents knew her mom because they had the right in place since undergrad. Right. Like, angel had Jeanine Ogboniah with her all this time. So there was obviously a plan for both on court and off the court, like domination.
- [27:50]
Zena Kada
I'm happy you brought that up because this is the difference maker for Angel Reese. Right. And we talk about. I mean, this is a former McDonald's All American. Okay. So she had already been on the map going into college and then was able to continue that excellence throughout college. So hiring Jeanine feels like that's the shift between I'm great on the court and I'm also great at expansion. I'm great in multiple different buckets. And it feels like this team that she has behind her is any wish that angel has. Anything she manifests, which you talk a little bit about in your piece, they're making it happen. What was it like learning a little bit more about that team and how did it all come together for her behind the scenes?
- [28:37]
Shakiya Taylor
I think it's so funny, right? Manifestation is when you not just want something to happen, but you accept it as such. Right. You believe that it's going to happen for you. So that's kind of the key. Right. And the reason why I start there is because that is what Angel's team, at least from my conversations with them, that's at the root of it. They believe, right, that angel is going to be successful. And for Janine to take angel on as her only client shows a really, really solid foundation in that belief. Right. So you have that these two have a relationship. They very clearly like each other. From the conversations I had, they, you know, they're active on text and they TikTok and, you know, whatever. They're. They're friendly. They're very friendly. And I think that shows, like, in the choices made for Angel's business, because they are very angel like things. I found the fact that she's into Y2K, you know, fashion and pink to be really interesting. But then if you look at all of the things that she's connected to, it's like, oh, yeah, you know, she likes Barbie and Juicy and sweatsuits and. Right.
- [29:52]
Zena Kada
It's all, you're Victoria's Secret Angels. Like, yeah, that's a thing. That's a Y2K thing, too.
- [29:58]
Shakiya Taylor
It felt very much so. She likes the generation ahead of her as far as, like, fashion goes, and that's really interesting. And she has a team of women who actually lived that time as young women. Right. So she has that, like, elder millennial millennial team behind her. You know, people don't love this, but, like, the elder millennials have culture, like, a really good grasp on culture. So Angel's team having, I think all of those people is kind of what keeps it interesting, kind of what keeps it going. And I think they seem to have a really good grasp on how to take angel the hoop star and turn her into angel the just general star.
- [30:43]
Zena Kada
I really love what you're saying about the foundation of them, of angel and her relationship with her team, and particularly Jeanine. Like, I vividly remember that video of Angel's team behind the scenes watching angel get ready for the Victoria's Secret angel or fashion show. And, like, they're in tears. Okay? Like, they are emotional about being able to make this dream happen for her. And as someone that, like, hasn't yet found the representation for me in my experience, in my career, I know how important that is to be able to have someone that not only believes in you as a person, as a human being, but as a brand. And, like, whatever you manifest and want and you wish out loud, which angel does a lot of Whether it's using her social media or in interviews, et cetera, being able to hear that and be like, yeah, we can do that. We can make that happen. And it's not hard, Shakiya, I think, to believe in the Angel Reese brand. One, you have a very confident player or personality that is very good at what they do. That is typically the foundation to be able to sell anything is be excellent or in the top tiers, but also being able to be versatile. As you wrote this story and you learned more about Angel's brand and just how they kept pivoting it into different spaces, what stood out to you?
- [32:12]
Shakiya Taylor
Okay, so this is probably not quite the answer, but it is the answer to me. Angel's team cannot talk about themselves. When I went into this, right. I kept trying to get them to talk about themselves, right? Because inside the business of Angel Reese means talking about the people who were there. But whenever I would try to get them to talk about themselves, they would pivot to angel. Right. And I think that is the thing behind the brand, right? Like, and that's only something you'll get from talking to them is they are actually, whenever an opportunity arose and I'd say, you know, you know about you, or, you know, tell me how you got involved. It would. They would tell the story, but there would always be the pivoting to talking about angel and the brand. And I think, like, that sort of brand messaging is very clear for her. Everyone is in. Seems to be in lockstep that it is very clear what she's into. Her brand seems to be very like, woman focused by design even. You know, the teams that she's chosen to represent her is very heavily women. The teams that she's chosen to invest in very heavily on the women's side. And I think, like, putting your values into the things that you're doing, particularly brand wise, is always going to end up being successful because it's authentic and it's hard to, like, fake right, who you are if you just invest in who you are, right? So I think that's. That's the positive for her brand. It's got all those elements, but like, the people who are with her, they pivot. You are going, the story is about Angel.
- [34:11]
Zena Kada
Wow, I love that. And that's really encouraging to know that someone is in good hands like that this early in their career. We often hear about some of these athletes usually on the men's side. I mean, you know, women are smart. I don't know if I could say, er, but shout out to Our male listeners as well. But you do hear about these male athletes a lot of times getting tied up in the wrong situations where the focus is not them. The focus is the people around them and them trying to get a bag off of the name, the excellence, the prominence of that athlete. And so that is really encouraging to hear that that's what angel has behind her. I also love that you mentioned that her brand positioning is clear. And the funny thing is, y', all, I ain't trying to take y' all to business school, okay? I'm not trying to take y' all to business school right now. But this is such a big deal, especially when it comes to women. Women athletes especially. I think that if there is anyone that is doing such a great job of finding their lane, defining that lane, and communicating that out, it's women athletes. And on top of that, they're doing it with the word that you're talking about, being authentic. I can vividly picture the coach commercial with Paige Beckers telling me as a grown woman, like, be yourself, because it's not cool. Like, no one's gonna like that if you're not like, I'm like, I know that message. But it hits different. Paige Beckers is authentically herself, right? And Paige Beckers is an example of it. Flaje Johnson's another example of it. And of course, Angel Reese isn't. It's there. There's. It seems to just be a real hyper focus on what's my lane? Where can I. How can I communicate that? And there's two things that angel does really, really well. We talked a little bit about how she's just prevalent everywhere. We see her everywhere. But I want to get your perspective on her use of social media in the midst of all of this, Especially, as we've known, in the midst of her villain era, social media was super toxic. And that feels like a space where you're just like, oh, I don't know if I want to deal with social media. How did she harness the power of social media in helping build that brand and also being able to find opportunities that aligned with her, you know, with her thoughts around being a Y2K, like, clueless ambassador, basically. Like, that's what I kind of consider her, but. And then also just wanting to be in all these different spaces. How does she align that using social media and then knowing where she wanted to be?
- [36:49]
Shakiya Taylor
I think there's a story to be told about women athletes and the Internet simply because the lack of coverage, the lack of, you know, just everything in that Area people saying they're not marketable. They're digital natives. Right? Like, they grew their own followings organically on social media. I. In every story I write about women's basketball, I always end up calling Christina Williams or Tarika Foster, Bradley Bradsby. And they always bring me back to this one point is that we have to remember that women athletes have existed on social media for so long that they know how to promote themselves. They know who their audience is. They know if I'm me, I am myself, I am authentic, that people are gonna tap in with me because of those things. So now that everything starts on the Internet, they've already got it under control. Like, they know they have their own audience. They navigate it well. And I think angel is kind of like one of the daughters of that. Right. Like, I know how to use social media. She wields the power pretty well. Right? Like, you say something negative about her, and you might find a very large amount of Angel Reese fans in your mentions. She doesn't even have to do anything, Right?
- [38:18]
Zena Kada
You absolutely will. God forbid. I. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
- [38:25]
Shakiya Taylor
No, I was trying to put it a little politely, but you're right.
- [38:28]
Zena Kada
Like, yeah, you know, they come hard for her, and I appreciate that. You know, you have fans, you have stans, you have people that support her. I'm all about making sure that it doesn't get any too, you know, too violent or too mean, but they protect her. And that is, again, evidence of. She has defined herself in such a way that people want to support her and want to be a part of. Of her confusion. I love what you're saying, though, about they navigate it, because as soon as you said, I was like, angel. And these women athletes do such a great job of navigating this space, but also their narrative and this evolution. Right, because we've seen angel go from. Yes, you know, at the beginning of her phase that we're at now, like, Angel's at the Met gala.
- [39:20]
Shakiya Taylor
You know what I mean?
- [39:20]
Zena Kada
Angel is sitting courtside in Miu Miu and Chanel and, like, high luxury brands. She is dripping in designer. And it's not just dripping and designer. She is sitting with the designers. Right. She has completely evolved her brand without losing that core piece of her audience. How does she balance the basketball with the brand, especially as she continues to evolve?
- [39:45]
Shakiya Taylor
You know, I asked her team this because I was like, wait, how are you managing all of this? And, you know, there's the joke in the piece that Angel's 24 hours are different than everyone else's. 24 hours. But there's also some. They do some very, like, interesting scheduling. Right. They. They kept telling me the basketball is still the focus. So we try to get as much as we can in the off season. They try to get as much as they can into breaks, you know, and, you know, off days, things that don't interfere as best as they can. And I think. I don't know. We saw her during the season twice where it was like, oh, okay, like, she had a game, but then she'd be somewhere else, but then she'd be back on the court.
- [40:30]
Zena Kada
How did she make it to the Met Gala? I can't. I can barely make flights. I'm like, how are you at practice one day, making it to Met Gala and then making it back to be able to play, like, it's crazy.
- [40:40]
Shakiya Taylor
Yeah, she has the kind of energy for. I don't know if you were like this, but a lot of people, a lot of us, you know, in undergrad, we kicked it really hard, but then we get back on campus in time for class. So I feel like this is kind of maybe that same energy. Like, yeah, I'm gonna achieve, but I'm also gonna, like, live my life to the fullest. I don't know when she rests, but I think that's probably the next question. Like, you know, what's your rest routine look like? Because this is a very busy, busy young woman.
- [41:15]
Zena Kada
It's crazy. She's balancing basketball, she's balancing social media, brands. She's in a relationship. There's so many things that I think that that's why when I started this conversation, saying, like, it's inspiring, because I don't know how someone like her does it. But the funny part is that this could be said about a lot of female athletes. I think about alana Myers Taylor, 41 years old, raising two special needs K, competing in the Winter Olympics as we speak and winning gold. Like, there's so many female athletes that continue to, like, raise the bar. And the way that angel is doing it so quickly, so fast, being excellent, winning a national title, setting all these records in the wnba, and then also every single day, popping up with a new brand deal or at a different, you know, court side or Fashion Week side. I don't know what you would call that. The first rows in Fashion Week. First row. Is that a thing? I don't know. Shakia. I don't know. But either way, the fact that she's doing it is amazing. Let's talk just a little bit before we close out the me bounce. The me bounce. Because that was brilliant. That was brilliant. What. Explain all that. What did her team say about that? And can we expect something in the future around that? Break it down.
- [42:41]
Shakiya Taylor
So that was really fascinating to me. Right. That was kind of one of the early questions in my conversations with them is like, tell me how we go from me bounds to six figure sales in period a weekend. And so Jeanine's like, oh, angel sees this on Social. I believe it was on TikTok. And angel recorded her own TikTok talking about it, sent the TikTok to Jeanine, and they ended up having a conversation. This whole thing is Angel's idea. Like, let's put it on a T shirt, essentially. Brilliant. Jeanine contacts their attorney because the girl apparently has ideas so frequently that they have a trademark attorney. They can just call and get this taken care of on the weekend and by the beginning of the week, the merch is available to everyone. Like that is from her idea to execution in less than a week.
- [43:44]
Zena Kada
I love it. It's impressive.
- [43:45]
Shakiya Taylor
It's impressive.
- [43:46]
Zena Kada
It's very impressive. This is your message to everyone listening. Write down your notes, y'.
- [43:50]
Shakiya Taylor
All.
- [43:50]
Zena Kada
If you have a thought, just write it down. Don't let it go. Go look into it now. I don't think you can probably afford a trademark lawyer to be on retainer, but you can go do some research. That's amazing. I mean, she literally saw somebody trying to hate on the fact that she can average 12 rebounds a game, lead the league in doing so at her. Did it her sophomore season and then freshman season. I mean, freshman rookie year just broke so many records. I won't go through all of them right now. But another thing that she did in terms of breaking records and also making history, she did that last year and unrivaled, becoming the defensive player of the year and winning a title with Rose and. And whoa, she's back. This is crazy. I was like, I didn't know. I thought she was out because of injury reasons, wanting to rehab, you know, but what can we expect to see now that she's gonna be back on the court? And I believe she's taken the court tonight from the night that we were recording.
- [44:51]
Shakiya Taylor
First of all, it shocked me. I'm like, wait, I thought she was taking this off season off. Like, there was a tweet from her about minding her business, right?
- [45:00]
Zena Kada
I'm minding my business.
- [45:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Yes.
- [45:03]
Shakiya Taylor
So I don't know, like, how this came to be. I don't know. But I do know that there was a lot of demand that I saw on, you know, on my own social media timelines for her. People asking where she was, people feeling like, you know, something was missing from the season. And then there were, you know, the players like Kalia Copper were also missing her. And they were. They weren't, you know, too subtle about it either. So I don't know if it just was like everyone wanted her and she said, oh, okay, I have time now. I've done all the things. I have time now. So it's great. I think people are expecting her to help lead her team to something of note in unrivaled. I know that they're not necessarily the top team in the standings right now, but they're in the top team. Right, Right. Okay, that's what I thought. I was like, I know they're up there, so maybe they expect him to make a push with her back.
- [46:02]
Zena Kada
The number one thing they need is rebounding. They need it bad. They are, I believe, last in the league right now in rebounding. I don't have the stats right in front of me, but that has been impacting them deeply. And we know that that's one thing she brings. Another thing that they need a little bit more of is passing. And that was something that we saw Angel's game improve upon, is her ability to grab rebounds and then go and set up offense. And seeing the growth from her rookie season to her sophomore season, you saw a lot of in from what she got from Unrivaled. So very, very excited to see what she's able to pick up as they try to make a push, as you mentioned, for the playoffs. Remember, top six of the eight get into the playoffs for Unrivaled, so probably have a good chance of making it, but you can't be losing too many basketball games. So, Shakiya, this is an awesome piece. I really do hope you get to make more pieces like this. It's always fascinating to learn how athletes are capitalizing on their fame and their position and their excellence, but really, really fascinating to learn about the people and the work it takes behind the scenes because I don't think there's enough appreciation for it.
- [47:13]
Shakiya Taylor
You know what? I think the big takeaway for me from stories like this, and particularly Angels, is I'm a big. You know, you keep what you're doing to yourself. Right. Angel just puts it out there and says, this is the thing that I want. So I think that that's gonna be my takeaway from Angel's story. I'm gonna start speaking things into existence a little bit more.
- [47:37]
Zena Kada
So I will be the power of manifestation, period. And I'm gonna be holding you to that shakiya because there's a lot of great opportunities. I know more places want to hear your voices. More people want to hear your voice in your writing. So we're going to be speaking that into existence for you. Okay. Thank you for stopping by, talking to us at no off season about angel and to having you back when you get the next pieces going.
- [48:02]
Shakiya Taylor
Thanks for having me.
- [48:09]
Sabrina Merchant
Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter? Right?
- [48:12]
Zena Kada
And the best part, they accept Discover.
- [48:14]
Sabrina Merchant
Except Discover in a little place like this?
- [48:17]
Zena Kada
I don't think so, Jennifer. Oh, yeah.
- [48:19]
Sabrina Merchant
Huh?
- [48:20]
Zena Kada
Discover is accepted where I like to shop. Come on, baby. Get with the times.
- [48:24]
Shakiya Taylor
Right?
- [48:25]
Zena Kada
So we shouldn't get the parachute pants. These are making a comeback, I think. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [48:39]
Commercial Narrator
Wellness doesn't have to be a reset.
- [48:41]
Shakiya Taylor
It can be a moment. Pura's well being collection is designed to help your home feel softer, calmer and more balanced through scent. Discover fragrances made for everyday ease@Pure Cura.com
- [48:52]
Commercial Narrator
Moods Security and compliance done wrong is a giant headache. Security and compliance done right, that's Vanta. Vanta helps you earn trust and speed up growth. No spreadsheets required. For startups low on time and resources, Vanta becomes your first security hire, using AI and automation to get you compliant fast and unblock big deals for enterprises. Vanta is your AI powered hub for compliance and risk, bringing together data from across your businesses and automating workflows so you can prove trust at any moment. Vanta scales with you at every stage. That's why top companies from startups like Cursor to enterprises like Snowflake choose Vanta do security and compliance right. Get started today@vanta.com tedaudio.
- [49:44]
Zena Kada
All right, let's dive in to the mailbag to close today's episode out. Sabrina, we got a message from Kara on Blue sky or Cara, one of the two. Kara. Kara, we love you. Thank you. On Bluesky. Who wants to know which unrivaled coach will be the first to or has a chance to jump back to the wnba? The best chance. And we know that a lot of those coaches unrivaled have been in the ecosystem of the WNBA as an assistant coach and or head coaches. And you know, I'm very curious who you think might be the person that might have the best chance to jump back into it.
- [50:27]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So I interpreted this just the way it was phrased as to jump into the wnba. Like, I kind of excluded Noel Quinn and Teresa Weatherspoon for my consent because I've already been head coaches in the WNBA. So we're looking at like, Rena Wakama, Andrew Wade, D.J. sackman, Zach O', Brien, Renika Hodges and Noah Henry. And of that list, five of them already been WNBA assistant coaches in some capacity or another. So really just trying to figure out how they've acquitted themselves in the unrivaled space, you know, to suggest they'd be a WNBA head coach. Zach o' Brien and Ron Hodges actually both lead assistant coaches, too. So you'd think that's even one step further to becoming a head coach.
- [51:10]
Zena Kada
Right, right, right, right.
- [51:11]
Sabrina Merchant
You think about just the teams that have achieved the most success. I looked at at the laces with Andrew Wade and the system that they've been able to run, how honestly, just how pretty it looks in three, on
- [51:19]
Zena Kada
three, and the way they have an identity. Yeah, they have an identity.
- [51:22]
Sabrina Merchant
And even with all of the personnel turnover they had from year to year, you know, losing Kayla McBride, Tiff Hayes, Stephanie Dolson, like, they still look to have the same identity year one and year two. And that, to me, is really impressive that a coach can establish that, you know, so soon in a WNBA setting or an unrivaled setting, I should say. So I think Andrew Wade, you know, that bodes well for him, that he has this kind of track record in unrivaled. Nola Henry, obviously a champion in unrivaled. That always bodes well.
- [51:49]
Zena Kada
I was just gonna say that's a big one. Exactly. Being able to do the first year.
- [51:54]
Sabrina Merchant
Right. So, you know, the Dallas Wings have not yet announced their new head coaching staff under Jose Fernandez. Unclear if they're going to be keeping Nola, who was part of the previous regime under Chris Ko Klan. She seems very beloved by the players. You know, all of the Dallas Wings get along really well with her, unrivaled, even if they're not on her team. Obviously, everyone on Rose very much goes to bat for Nola. She is a little bit younger, as is Andrew Wade. 32 people who are like, younger than we are. So.
- [52:21]
Shakiya Taylor
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:22]
Sabrina Merchant
Maybe it takes a little bit longer for them to get head coaching jobs, but then again, Alex Sarama, also very young, first time WNBA head coach. So not. Not writing it off by any means, but those two stick out most to me. And then I do like Rena because she has Been the coach of a national team in team Nigeria.
- [52:38]
Zena Kada
With Nigeria.
- [52:40]
Sabrina Merchant
And that head coaching experience I think really resonates with team front offices when they're looking to make these hires. Like, even if you are hiring a first time WNBA head coach, you want different kinds of experience. And like, not only do they have the head coaching experience at unrivaled, but like the head coaching experience at an Olympics where there's so much pressure on that stage. Like I think about when the New York Liberty hired Chris DiMarco and they said that his experience in the Bahamas was so relevant to like that process. I'd have to believe that coaching teenagery at the Olympics would be just a huge mark in her favor. And I think hive has gotten a lot better over the course of this season. Like just.
- [53:15]
Zena Kada
I was gonna say that too. Yeah. Yes.
- [53:17]
Sabrina Merchant
So I realize I've taken up all the answers, but if I were to like, rank in my top three, those would be my top three.
- [53:22]
Zena Kada
Yeah. Okay. Well, you just said everything I was gonna say in terms of like breaking all of this down. For me, when I look at Rena, it 1000% is the growth of the hive and how quickly we've been able to jell her. Being able to tap in with, you know, particularly Kelsey Mitchell, just being put on a spotlight and a pedestal on that team and being able to let
- [53:42]
Sabrina Merchant
her cook blessing to be able to coach Kelsey Mitchell. But a lot of Indians went down
- [53:45]
Zena Kada
for years, so thank you. That part. That part. And I just love she.
- [53:51]
Shakiya Taylor
She.
- [53:52]
Zena Kada
I see this particularly in Rena and no Nola and Andrew, actually, the way they ride for their teams. There is a camaraderie and a bond. And you know, Ron Hodges too, like they. I think all these coaches do a really great job of connecting with their teammates. But I still remember when Rena, they got the first win, just like the energy for it. And I think the aspect of putting together a coaching staff is really important too. And Rena has that under her belt. I think about Nola. And let's just be real. When the camera was going into the huddles at the Dallas Wings game, Sabrina Nola was drawing up them plays a lot.
- [54:29]
Sabrina Merchant
True.
- [54:29]
Zena Kada
Okay.
- [54:30]
Sabrina Merchant
But she was a nine win team, so. You know, I get that.
- [54:33]
Zena Kada
I get that. I get that. But point being, like, you know, she was really at the helm.
- [54:40]
Sabrina Merchant
Responsibility already. Yeah, thank you.
- [54:43]
Zena Kada
Exactly. You see, you're so good with the words. And Andrew Wade, I like him as well. Mainly because of what you just mentioned. I think the Laces have such an identity in ways other teams do not. And that in itself, to build that in such a short period of time. And even though the Laces have had some continuity with their team in comparison to others, like, they still have a. A lot of new faces to incorporate and I'm impressed with the way that they've been able to. And again, we thought that team was going to be defensive oriented like, and they are, don't get me wrong. But they have a great offensive style as well. So it's pretty cool that he was able to tap into those defensive minded players and bring out the best in them. So Cara, Cara, our girl. Like, I don't know if we've answered your question, but one of those three, I'm gonna say if I had to
- [55:35]
Sabrina Merchant
pick one, if I had to pick one, I think the first one to get a job in this space would be Andrew Wade.
- [55:41]
Zena Kada
Andrew Wade.
- [55:42]
Sabrina Merchant
Experience.
- [55:44]
Zena Kada
Mm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'm with you. I think I might. I think I would do Andrew, then Rena, then Nola. And I only think about Nola from that perspective because of her age. She is younger and it might feel like too much of a. We prefer you have on the bench so you can have that camaraderie and that bond and being closer to the players in that way. But yeah, okay, we've gone long enough. Cara, Cara, tell us what you think. Hopefully we've answered your question, but we appreciate you guys always sending in messages and questions of that sort. We'll keep going with the mailbags as we continue to give you guys great hoops content and you know, you gotta check back in with us next week at the top of the week because we'll be able to continue this conversation on rivaled women's college college basketball. Anything that we find out with the W and the players, of course, you know, we'll keep you locked in. If you haven't follow our show or you'll miss out and then we'll just be like, this was on you. I don't know what to tell you. Did you follow? Did you subscribe? If not, that's on you. But we appreciate you guys listening today. Thank you so much for Shakiya Taylor as well, stopping by, giving us the business of Angel Reese. As always, on behalf of the athletic and Sabrina Merchant, I'm Zena Kada, thanking you for listening. Hope you guys have a great weekend. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings and Sabrina Merchant. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott, our theme music is by Marcus Bugalla. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.
- [57:43]
Commercial Narrator
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One can cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC
- [58:14]
Zena Kada
if
- [58:14]
Commercial Narrator
you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted partner makes all the difference. That's why hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reorder ordering. With on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [58:43]
Shakiya Taylor
At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own, plus get advice and more comprehensive
- [58:55]
Commercial Narrator
wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs.
- [58:58]
Shakiya Taylor
With award winning service, low costs and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab.
- [59:05]
Commercial Narrator
Visit schwab.com to learn more.