← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
How does Dearica Hamby's case impact the WNBA?
01:07:41
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- [00:00]
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Zena Kaeda
There to watch them.
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- [04:57]
Zena Kaeda
For the athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by AT&T. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's basketball. Of course Ben and I kicked off the second half of the season last week and now I've got Sabrina here to talk a little bit about the action that went right back to being crazy over the course of the weekend. Of course we want to get back to things how we were doing it before the All Star break. So of course let me lay out our scout for today. Okay. We absolutely want to talk about trade Deadline because it's coming up really soon. Sabrina is going to talk a little bit about what that looks like, what to expect, what not to expect, pretty much. And why trade deadline is not something we talk about enough in women's basketball. Then we got to talk about that Aces Liberty game from over the weekend because there was a lot of anticipation around it. Got to see if it actually met up to our standards and what we expected. Expected. And then last but not least, want to talk about what's going on with this de Erica Hamby case. I know there's been a lot of buzz happening around it, especially after a particular post game press conference last night. So let's dive in. Sabrina, welcome to the show.
- [06:26]
Sabrina Ionescu
Glad to be back, Xena.
- [06:28]
Zena Kaeda
I'm happy to have you because we got some things to talk about. First up, the trade deadline. What's really funny is before this show, this show, the athletic women's basketball show started, it was August 31st of last year again right around or right after trade deadline. And one of our practice episodes was actually about talking about the trade deadline. So when this came up again, I was like, oh, Sabrina, you already told me everything. And she's like, but I didn't tell the people. Okay, didn't tell the people. So we got to make sure that you guys are involved in the conversation now. Can't believe we're already creeping up on almost one year of this show. But for all of those that don't know much about the trade deadline around the wnba, don't worry. I completely get it because it's something that's literally hush hush. No one talks about it. So first up, Sabrina, when is the WNBA trade deadline?
- [07:17]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, the WNBA trade deadline is on Tuesday, August 20th. So the day that this show comes out at 8pm Eastern, which means it is actually during games that will be taking place on Tuesday, which should just give you an indication of how important it is in the grand scope of the WNBA season. You think about other leagues where general managers are like clamoring to get the league office on the phone in time. You know, by that 3pm Eastern deadline in this case, general managers are probably just going to be sitting at their team's games watching them play instead of, you know, this mad dash of flurry, you know, at the very end of the deadline.
- [07:52]
Zena Kaeda
Very different energy than we're used to from the NBA, the mlb, NHL, other big leagues in this country where, you know, trade deadline is a big deal, especially in the middle of the season. You can make big splashes, you can change Your whole roster chemistry, everything can happen right now. There were two teams that were involved in a trade before the deadline, Chicago and Connecticut. I know we've talked a little bit about it, we talked about it last episode, but can you run it back for us, Sabrina, what happened between those two teams?
- [08:23]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah. So right before the Olympic break, Chicago sent Marina Mabry to Connecticut for the Rachel Banham and Mariah Jefferson. Connecticut also sent a first round pick back to Chicago and Connecticut received a second round pick from Chicago. So a little bit of draft assets also changing hands, but the bulk of it is that Marina Mabry going from the sky to the Connecticut sun where she has been a starter ever since she arrived in Connecticut.
- [08:46]
Zena Kaeda
Now knowing what Marina Mabry a 35, 36% three point shooter for Chicago, but mainly their main three point shooter for Chicago, leaving Chicago going to Connecticut. Rachel Bantam also a three point shooter coming from Connecticut, but maybe not as prolific of a shooter and a shot creator as Marina Mabry. I'm very curious, who do you think won this trade?
- [09:12]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, it's tough because it's. You can't just isolate it to this particular trade. You have to think about like what Chicago sacrificed in the first place to get Marina Mabry when they acquired her from Dallas back at the 2023 offseason. And just in terms of the assets that they sent out to Dallas versus the assets that they recouped from Connecticut, pretty much a net loss for Chicago in this particular instance. I think you just put the ball in the hands of Lindsey Allen and Kennedy Carter more often for the sky to end out the year. Maybe Dana Evans gets a little bit more of a look. She's about to become a restricted free agent for the Sky. So I think it's kind of like a clarifying evaluation period for the Chicago sky who could make the playoffs, may not make the playoffs. It doesn't really affect their future prospects if they do make the playoffs. Whereas Connecticut, this is not an all in move because you know, they only surrendered one first round pick and actually cleared up some salary cap for next season when a lot of their big time players are going to be free agents. But it is very much a, hey, we didn't feel like we were on the same level as the WNBA finalists last year. Let's see if this is what's going to push us over the top.
- [10:13]
Zena Kaeda
Gotcha. And apparently this trade came about because Marina asked for it. Is that correct?
- [10:21]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah. So Marina Mabry signs in Chicago when James Wade is still the head coach and general manager expecting A certain role. James Wade obviously leaves mid season in 2023 to take an assistant coaching job with the Toronto Raptors in the NBA. Everything changes in Chicago. Teresa Weatherspoon is the new head coach. Jeff Paglioka is the new general manager. They bring in basically an entirely new guard rotation during the offseason that includes Kennedy, Carter and, you know, with Angel Reese, Camilla Cardoso. The direction of the team is very different than what Marina Mabry had signed up for back in 2023. So I think it was just an understanding that her role was not going to be what she thought it was back when she originally committed to that contract and she had an opportunity to play some real winning basketball in Connecticut. I think she's only played in one playoff series during her entire WNB career. That was a three game series, ironically, against Connecticut, although she was a rookie on the Sparks when they made the playoffs. But I doubt that she actually got into the game very much during those particular playoff game. So, yeah, this is a new experience for her, you know, to actually try to contend. And that's just not on Chicago's timeline.
- [11:21]
Zena Kaeda
All right. I mean, good luck to both of these organizations with their trades. We're starting to see a little bit of the aftermath of those trades. You know, seeing Mariah Jefferson and Rachel Bantam get some significant minutes already within the Chicago sky. And I haven't gotten to catch the Connecticut sun with Marina Mabry just yet. Did you get a chance to see a game this weekend?
- [11:44]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, I watched both of their games. The first one against Dallas, which was just this like, roaring, really exciting. Oh, my God, Connecticut is scoring more than 100 points in a basketball game. Look what Marina Mabry is doing. And then you have to pause and think, oh, wait, they're playing the Dallas Wings, the worst defense in the WNBA that can make everybody look like they know how to run an offense. And I kind of thought of it, okay, like this is a Connecticut scrimmage. Because although most of their players were in market, you know, working with Marina during the Olympic break, obviously Alyssa Thomas in Paris competing for Team usa. Dewana Bonner with her in Paris. So two very important pieces for the Connecticut sun had not yet really played with Marina. So this was their first go round of trying to figure out what that action is going to look like. I do think Steph White is just leaning right into it. Like there's a lot of Marina Mabry, Alyssa Thomas, two player actions. They're screening for each other. You know, Marina's, you know, working off the ball a Little bit. Like there's just a real intention right away to figure out what they have with those two, which I think is what you have to do, right? Like regular season record be damned. Like you need to know what this is going to look like come playoff time. So Dallas, like, you couldn't have asked for a better introduction to what this new lineup was going to look like. And then we get to Atlanta, which is a team that just loves to crowd the paint, sink in on defense. Like, they barely guard three point shooters. They just want to take away the basket at all costs. And that can be a pretty tricky defensive proposition when you're playing a team like maybe New York or Minnesota. But when you're playing a team like Connecticut that doesn't like to shoot three pointers. Even with Marina Mabrianto, it was very interesting to see how Connecticut's offense got gummed up again when they're facing this defense that's literally designed to beat them. So definitely going to be some growing pains. I'm still interested to see what this guard rotation is going to look like because Dijonay Carrington and Ty Harris have been starting for the entirety of the regular season. Now you introduce Marina Mabry. Do you put her in for Ty Harris? I think that's more of a like for like situation because Ty was their spacer. But maybe you put her in for Dijonay Carrington because now you have two shooters who actually have to be respected at the three point line. It just introduces an entirely new element for Connecticut because Wenner, Connecticut and spacing used in the same sentence in a positive association. So I am interested to see what this looks like going forward. If you know what starting backcourt is going to take shape for Connecticut, how soon Marina can figure out exactly how she fits in defensively and offensively. But it's definitely not going to be as easy as it looked against the Dallas Wings. Nothing is as easy as it looks against the Dallas Wings. And I'm really interested to see how this continues to take shape.
- [14:09]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, Connecticut going down against the Atlanta Dream, that's one of the ones I have queued up. 82, 70 and Marina went 2 for 10 in that game from 3. So not as easy of a transition as people might assume. Just because you can shoot threes with one team doesn't necessarily mean you can come into a team that has a hole or a gap in that space and just immediately make an impact. Now with Chicago and Rachel Banham and Mariah Jefferson, you're seeing. I like the way you talked About Steph White leaning with intention into Marina Mabry becoming a part of this lineup. You obviously saw Rachel, bam, got the green light, like she was putting it up over the course of their, their two games this weekend as well. What did you see if you were able to catch some of the games of Chicago with that adjustment of those two additions for the Chicago Sky?
- [14:58]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, so Chicago has actually played three games in the first four days since the Olympic break. One of a couple teams that it's just really getting right after it as we, you know, just full speed ahead into the second half of the season. I got a chance to see Chicago in person actually when they came to Los Angeles on Saturday. Big Rachel Banham game. Just I don't understand how you don't treat her like a five alarm fire whenever she gets the ball. Like you just, you gotta be right up on her airspace. She's, she's a shooter and that's what she does. She does it with confidence. And it's very useful for Chicago that their only meaningful spacer in that rotation was Marina Mabry. To just plug and play with Rachel Banham. Like they're not going to be running the same stuff for her. Obviously she's not the same on ball threat that Marina was. But to have somebody who actually, you know, attract some attention away from that front court is really important for them, really helpful. They went one and two this weekend. Both of their losses were to Phoenix, a team that is ahead of them in the standings. Obviously still trying very hard to, you know, make a postseason run, get some better playoff seating. Great moment in Chicago on Thursday when Kalia Copper returned for the first time to Chicago and shows up in her tunnel fit in a Kalia Capra Chicago sky jersey as a member of the Phoenix Mercury.
- [16:08]
Zena Kaeda
I love it. What a way to troll.
- [16:11]
Sabrina Ionescu
Like what a way to. Let me hand it back to you.
- [16:15]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, like let me hand your butt back to you. Yeah, it was. And it was, I mean, 20 point losses for Chicago both times to Phoenix. Yeah, both times. And yes, you're right, there was two. I was not counting Thursday's game. So three games overall over the past weekend. But you're, you're seeing more, less. So Rachel Banham and Mariah Jefferson having impact on this team and more. So Marina Mabry's absence really making an impact on how they're performing. Okay, so with the trades happening, obviously Chicago, Connecticut, they got theirs out of the way. How many more do you really expect?
- [16:52]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, so this is, this is why we don't really talk about the trade deadline. Because WNBA teams don't really do anything at the trade deadline. You and I had talked about this last year, you know, in our practice show that when Indiana and Washington had traded Queen Egbo and Amanda Zawie B for one another last season, it was the first time in four years that the WNBA had completed a trade where both teams used a player from the trade that season. Wow. So this is the kind of activity we're talking about. Usually you're getting some sort of salary dump, maybe an exchange of draft picks, but rarely, if ever, do we get a trade where both teams actually end up using a player from that particular deal. Obviously, now we've seen it happen again with Marina Mabry, Rachel Banham, but this is an unprecedented level of activity for the WNBA to have something like this in season or something consequential is actually happening. So if you have your Alarm set for 8pm Eastern on August 20, you know, snooze it like it's really nothing. Nothing's gonna happen. I wouldn't expect major game changing things to take place. You know, I've heard some rumors of Dallas trying to clear some salary to bring back Odyssey Sims, but Odyssey Sims is now signed with the Los Angeles Sparks on a hardship contract. And if you've paid attention to the Los Angeles Sparks injury issues, that hardship is going to last for quite some time. So it's not like Odyssey Sims is going to be available for the Dallas Wings anytime in the near future. So I wouldn't expect anything really to happen during the trade deadline. It's just very complicated during the WNBA season to make deals like this because you're dealing with teams that have a hard cap. So you have to have a specific salary match in order to make sure that both teams stay under the cap at the end of the trade. And then we're also dealing with very limited roster sizes. So most teams are already carrying 11 players. If you try to do a two for one trade, then all of a sudden you come back with 10 players. Now you're not meeting the roster requirements and the trade is no longer illegal. So it's very difficult to find something at this point of the season when there's so little cap space going around. You basically have to have equal salaries, you know, going in and out. And this is just not the way WNBA teams strategize during the off season. Their. Their goal is to make the team that is going to play in September all the way back in May. It's not like, okay, we'll figure out what happens? And then in the middle of the year, we'll reassess. No, no, they do all their reassessments during training camp. And if things change, then like that's where you see hardship players and seven day contracts. But it's just not really a, a thing in the WNBA where they try to remake their teams at the trade deadline. And of course, the, you know, collective bargaining rules make it very challenging to make something happen. If the CBA were to change, you know, we know that the players union has the option to opt out of this current CBA at the end of the season. Maybe they'll introduce some flexibility to make some player movement happen at the trade deadline. Obviously, we love talking about player movement, we love talking about the off season, but that is not something that really applies to August 20th.
- [19:56]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, no, that makes sense. And for those of you that don't know, the hard cap in the WNBA is a little bit different than in other leagues that have soft caps. So WNBA 1.463. Yeah, yeah, something like that. 1.46 something is they're hard cap and they cannot go over it. Whereas not even a dollar, not one dollar. Like they cannot go over it. Where in the NBA you've got a soft cap. So you can go over that, that, that cap and you could pay a tax because you went over it. Right. And if you got a lot of money, you can do that. But the Josiah's of the world, the Matt ISHB is of the world, you know, the ones that can afford to go over that cap, they can't. They literally cannot. And I know in the CBA they can go. Each year that hard cap increases by 50,000, which gives you a little bit of wiggle room. Little bit. But again, you have to match the salaries. And I think that's when you explain that to me of like matching the salaries for the gap that you have. Oh, that is a different piece of puzzle playing that I do not, if I'm a gm, do not want to play. Well, before we close this out, have you heard anything on the Grapevine? Are people making calls?
- [21:13]
Sabrina Ionescu
I wouldn't expect anything. No, there's. There's really nothing of interest here, folks.
- [21:17]
Zena Kaeda
If you see anything go down, you are watching history happening right in front of you. All right, let's keep it moving and let's talk about. We talked a little bit about some of the games that we saw over the weekend, but the one that everyone had circled and marked on their calendar, Aces versus Liberty. Now, I took, I sat down and Took notes during this game. Okay. I was locked in, folks, because, of course, there was so much anticipation knowing the amazing run that the U.S. women's National Team had in the Olympics. You saw Stuja, which. I'm gonna just put my thoughts out there. I'm not a huge fan of that acronym or like that.
- [21:55]
Sabrina Ionescu
Come up with something better, Xena, and then we'll talk.
- [21:57]
Zena Kaeda
I will. I promise you. I was like. I was like, I don't know if Stoosia. Stoosa just sounds like a weird. Like, I just think of a Ouija board or something like that. And it's just. I don't. We'll think about something. But I guess the rest of the world is calling it Stoosia. Stewie and Asia going off in Paris and then bringing it back to the United States, where they are now opponents on the opposite sides of the ball. And of course, in that matchup, it wasn't just the US Being represented. There was Germany represented, there was Spain represented. I mean, there. There were a ton of different Olympians out there. I think nine different Olympians represented or 10 different Olympians represented in that matchup. So lots of competition, lots of anticipation to see how would this translate from the game. And ultimately the New York Liberty, I wouldn't even. I can't say they squeaked it out. They just rolled through, and it was so definitive of how dominant they are as a team. So I want to. I want to roll through what you thought about this game, because it started hot with the Aces. I mean, shooting lights out. They were. The ball was moving. Everything was good. And then stagnation, offensive stagnation. And the Liberty heated all the way up. It was scary times. So first up, what'd you think of the game? Did it meet your. Your standards, your expectations?
- [23:28]
Sabrina Ionescu
I mean, it was super fun. You could, like, definitely feel the energy even while you were watching on television. As you mentioned, 10 Olympians plus Sandy Brondello, you know, coach of the bronze medal winning Australia team. So ten and a half, if you want to put it that way. I don't know how much we consider the coaches. They don't actually get the medal, but it's. It's so funny because you could almost, like, write your calendar to New York Las Vegas games. Last year, they played each other 10 times during the 2023 season. Like, when we're talking exhibitions, Commissioners cup playoffs, you know, it was just. It was always happening, you know?
- [23:58]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah.
- [23:59]
Sabrina Ionescu
And this is only the second time they've met during this season. And the first game, did not include Chelsea Grace. So it's really like the first time we've really seen a whole New York versus Las Vegas. And even then, not quite because the Liberty are still playing without Benijah Aleni Hamilton. So it felt a little bit newer, you know, than I think we would have expected at this point of the year. Last season when it was just like, all right, can we just like fast forward to the playoffs? Like, enough of watching these two teams play against one another. But I do think that, you know, the anticipation was definitely there. The way Las Vegas, like just shot out of a cannon when the game started. You could, you know, feel the, the energy from their home crowd. It's just, it's very strange to see the Las Vegas Aces in a position where I don't think they're the best team in the league and I wouldn't expect them to the WNBA Championship. And you know, for, for the entirety of this podcast, it's basically been like, you know, someone come get the Aces. Yeah, here the Liberty are and two games in Las Vegas this season, they have just stamped out the Aces. And no matter, like whether the Aces have Asia Wilson or whether they have their four Olympians, you know, they're five on five Olympians, something about the, the Liberty's chemistry, their, the way they all work together, like, this is the vision that they had during the 2023 off season and a year of cooking, you know, a little bit more Kayla Thornton. Leo Feebich has been really good for them.
- [25:13]
Zena Kaeda
She has.
- [25:14]
Sabrina Ionescu
It's just, it's a really fun team to watch. And I come out of it like, you know, we had those predictions that came out on the Athletic last week where I ever so slightly gave the Liberty the nod to win the WNBA title. And I'm feeling much better about it two days later.
- [25:27]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, okay, okay. I was like, you did a good job. I mean, they, they, they must have been listening and reading.
- [25:31]
Sabrina Ionescu
I do know for a fact some of them are reading.
- [25:33]
Zena Kaeda
So there you go. There you go. Well, I didn't even mention like, what the actual final score was 79 to 67. And that 12 point deficit doesn't really, I don't think, depict what the Liberty were able to do because not only were they able to come back, I think they were down 11 points at one point in the first quarter. They were able to come back and they were able to show not only their ability to be resilient against the fight from the Aces, because the aces in the fourth quarter, it got to 67, 63, where the Aces were down only four points, so they fought like they fought all the way back. But the New York Liberty were able to just be resilient and show their dominance and being able to, you know, close that out. One of the most impactful first half players, not so much in the second half offensively, but definitely from defensive and playmaking perspective. Sabrina Unescu ended up with 23 points. You are seeing her tap in, lock into a different level. I mean, she's always been a scorer. She's always been someone that could create for herself, but now you're seeing her create for her teammates, seeing her have floor vision in ways that I haven't seen before. You know, what do you make about the improvement in her game and how it's helping unlock another level for the Liberty?
- [26:47]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, I mean, has there been a better guard in the WNBA than Sabrina Nescu this year? Like, I can't think of one. I think. I mean, obviously wnba, all WNBA teams are no longer by position, so I don't know how that's going to shake out because people love just voting power forwards, you know, five of them onto the LW NBA team. That's a topic for another day. But Serena Nescu, just what a phenomenal season she's having. You know, last year she was just absolutely on fire from three point range, but had difficulty if teams were chasing her off the line. Right. Like, there wasn't a lot of that in between game. The floater hadn't really started to work for her. Couldn't really finish around the basket. Couldn't be more different this year. You know, she's not like raining fire from three point range anymore, but still solid 36%, which is above league average. But she's just been so good at getting into the paint and floater has been really good. Hard drives to the basket. Just so many different ways to score that make her really challenging to stop. Because you can't just, you know, settle in on one thing. You can't just say, I'm gonna take away the three pointer. And then Sprint has got nothing. Like, she has a little bit of everything. And I think the way that New York is playing, the way that they're setting up their lineups, it's a lot more wing heavy than it was last year. Like, you know, Courtney Vandersloot was out for so much of the season. They play a lot of Sabrina's minutes with just three wings next to her, whether that's Thornton or Fibich or, you know, Stewie's basically a wing. You know, Kennedy, Burke, just a lot of, like, size, really long defenders. And I think that makes life a little bit easier for Sabrina, just in terms of knowing all of the help that's behind her. And I do think she's also stepped up her defensive game, so she's no longer, like, a liability on that end. And I just look at a game like this, where New York shot just about 40% from the field, they scored, like, 79 points, which generally against the Aces is not enough. Right? Like, this is a team that averages more than 80 points per game, and it's the kind of game that they don't win last year. Like, they win shootouts. This is get in the mud, you know, hold the aces to 35% shooting, limit them to 8 points in the second quarter. Like, it's the type of defensive effort that was not in the Liberty's bag last year, and for them to, you know, pull that out. When I think. I mean, we started this with Sabrina, like, I think she's a big part of it, just at the point of attack, setting a good tone, you know, making life difficult, Whether that's for Chelsea, whether that's for Kelsey Plum. It's just been really impressive to watch this defensive growth in the team, and it's something that I wasn't sure if they were capable of before, and now it's almost routine for this particular New York team.
- [29:02]
Zena Kaeda
Almost routine is the best way to put it. And I want to ask you about which part of the Liberty you think is actually more helpful. The fact that Brianna Stewart and Sabrina Ionescu have been dominant and consistently dominant and routinely dominant, or the depth of the New York Liberty being routinely consistent and helpful on defense and offense. Is it their big stars or their depth, you think that's actually more of an asset for the Liberty?
- [29:35]
Sabrina Ionescu
I mean, I kind of want to answer with, like, a mix of the two, because I feel like we're not even talking about Jonquil Jones yet, who has just been awesome, right?
- [29:44]
Zena Kaeda
And putting her into the Big Three.
- [29:45]
Sabrina Ionescu
Fits in the star portion of it, right? But also is part of the. Like, she just does a little bit of everything. I mean, you saw some of the passes that JJ made in that game. Like, she is just styling out there on the court, like this six, six center, like, throwing, you know, little. Little bounce passes. Maybe like, the most versatile player in this game, which is saying something, considering all of the other skill sets that are, you know, on display with Stewie and Sab and all of the Aces that we haven't even gotten to. But I think the depth is a big part of it because I think about what the Liberty were during the playoffs last year and it was basically, we've got our five starters and like Marine is good for one game out of four. We don't know when that game is going to be because Marine never has an average shooting game. You know, it's always like we're real hot or it's not going to happen today. Right. Literally, they just couldn't count on anybody beyond that like big group. You know, it wasn't, wasn't a great season for Kayla Thornton, but now you have the starters and then you have Fibich and Thornton and like just Sabili has been having a really nice season for them too when she's been available. I think the collection of players, the fact that like everybody can go hard in their minutes because you know somebody else is going to come in and just pick up the level immediately when they come back in. It's been really important. Just that trust that they clearly all have in one another. Yeah, I mean you can't win without stars. But like they had stars last year. They had all WNBA worthy stars and it just didn't all come together. I think, I think the depth has just been super important. The fact that they can rely on so many players, like they've, they've had injuries to deal with. You know, like Sloot obviously missed a good chunk of time dealing with passing of her mother. Stewie missed some time before the Olympics. Like they're benijelaney Hamilton's, you know, recovering from knee surgery. Those are three all stars, you know, former all stars that have missed, you know, portions of the season and they just keep plugging in without missing a beat. So I think that depth is really what's been carrying them like to this incredible record. At this point in the regular season.
- [31:30]
Zena Kaeda
I feel really smart because I thought the same. So the fact that Sabrina is on the same page as me. Thank you. No, I agree. I think when you look at across the league, but particularly across the teams that are in the top of this conversation, they've got stars. A lot of these teams don't have depth. They don't have depth that can also play with these stars consistently and as you mentioned, routinely. And I mean, yes, Jonquail Jones, seven assists in that game against the Aces. But you think about who she's assisting, these wings that are around her, being able to find people posted up and spotted up outside of her, not just in this Aces game, but throughout the course of the season. People being able to play with her being a dominant post inside that can also see the floor and have great floor vision. You need people coming off the bench that can hit that outside shot, that can hit those, you know, those pass out of the post kind of shots. And oh, the depth for New York has been unfair. Again, they do not have bet Nijah Laney Hamilton back yet, folks, and they're just rolling. So looks like the Liberty are chilling. They already have their playoff berth. They are the first team to already, you know, notch their spot in the 2024 playoffs. Team that is not there yet was on the opposite side of the ball and that's the Aces. And we got to talk about the Aces. Okay. Because I see three things out of that game. This is not something that's consistent throughout the whole season. Could be, but those three things I saw in that game. Number one, Jackie Young. I just want to list this out really quick. Number one, Jackie Young. Last WNBA game, fourth break, 17 points. Pretty consistently. Averaging about 18 points this season. Four points total in that game, two of which were free throws. We'll talk about that. Number two, offensive flow. They being the Aces average about 21 assists. They had only 14 in that game. Very uncharacteristic for them, especially with Chelsea Gray back on the floor, which she's been for several games, but particularly with the fact that she was on the floor. Very uncharacteristic. And then number three, paint defense and rebounding. The amount of offensive Rebound, I think 13 offensive rebounds for the Liberty versus two for the Aces. When you've got Kia Stokes in there and Asia Wilson in there and also Alicia Clark, you've got offensive rebounding, personnel. And that's the lineup. That's the number. The breakdown of the stat, very strange. Okay, so those are the three things I noticed for the Aces as being a big problem in this matchup. Let's talk about Jackie Young. What did you see that the Liberty were doing or maybe that the Aces were doing that was inhibiting her ability to be the Jackie Young we know her to be?
- [34:21]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, I don't want to discredit what the Liberty were able to do because obviously defensively, really great performance for New York. I mean, they've just been outstanding since they got out of the break. 35 point win over the Sparks before heading to Vegas. So just chilling, you know, really chugging along en route to that number one seed. Jackie just looks gassed to me and I know like a lot of players have come back from the Olympics. They've come back to varying degrees of rest, rust, you know, like, whatever their rhythm looks like, Jackie looks like she could just use a week off. And maybe this is just dealing with the jet lag of coming back from Paris. Even in that second game the Aces played this weekend against the Sparks, you know, she shoots 3 for 12, only scores 10 points. And, you know, no. No bigger Sparks fan than me at the Athletic. And, like, you should, if you're Jackie Young, you should put up more 10 points against the Los Angeles Sparks, especially this current iteration that they have. So I. I look at Jackie and just. I. I want her to just, like, lie down and, you know, like, take 72 hours and figure out, like, you know, get all the juice back. Because nothing, like, functionally looks different in terms of how they're using her in the offense. Like, yeah, New York always has wings that they're going to guard her with, but Jackie's really strong. She's long. You know, she's got good size for her position. I'm not really seeing, like, teams taking her out of the game so much as she just doesn't look quite right to me. And it's part of the reason why Olympic years are just so hard for teams. Like, we talked about this at the Athletic, me and Ben about how, you know, Minnesota couldn't repeat in 2016 when they had four starters go to the Olympics. And Stewie in 2021, you know, has an injury coming back from the Olympics when Seattle was just, like, absolutely rolling before the Olympic break. I just wonder if, like, Vegas kind of has to, like, load manage, for lack of a better word. I know it's not something that really happens in the wnba. Women do not load manage. They play and they play and they play, and maybe Jackie just needs a breather, because, like I said, I mean, I watch those games, and I don't think, like, teams are really taking Jackie out of it. I really look at her and see someone who's just not in her rhythm right now.
- [36:18]
Zena Kaeda
I would agree with that. And the assessment of just looking tired, it makes sense when you think about how much she was used defensively in Paris for the Olympics and how physical the game is with the FIBA rules. I can imagine that she took a fair beating out in Paris to help get gold for the U.S. women's Nationals team, because it's. It's showing. It just shows. Like, every. There's. There was plays where I was like, oh, Jackie, about to break her down. And it was like, nope. Like, you know, dribble back out or Met a brick wall and was, you know, was forced to dribble back out.
- [36:55]
Sabrina Ionescu
And Jackie's usually the brick wall herself.
- [36:58]
Zena Kaeda
Correct. She's usually the bowling ball, the brick wall. Every sort of strong adjective you can, a tribute to her name. That's usually who Jackie is. So that is, I think that's a fair assessment that she just looks tired because it is so uncharacteristic for her to have been such a non factor in that game, especially against an opponent like the Liberty. And now you're seeing what we were just talking about, the asset that the Liberty have in terms of a bench and depth to give player. Like, you know, imagine if the Aces had the depth that the Liberty have to be able to give Jackie Young a break and to give her, you know, that opportunity for proper load management. Absolutely agree with that assessment. Now, speaking of, you know, the way that Jackie's being used, I'm curious about the offensive flow I saw in that Aces game because there did seem like even though there was great spacing, four out, one in, there was a lot of one on one and maybe at the end of shot clocks, a lot of, you know, pick and roll type of, you know, high ball screen type of stuff. What did you see from an offensive perspective for the Aces? And then maybe compare that against to what you saw against the the Sparks.
- [38:11]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah. What's interesting about the Aces is they have so many really talented one on one creators who can just get their shot whenever they want. You look at their core four of Jackie Young, Kelsey Plum, Chelsea Gray, Asia Wilson. You don't need ball movement to get those players open. They can just break defenders down, get to the paint. Like they can pretty easily get to their spots. But that's not what makes the Aces great. What makes them great is that they leverage all of their skills off of one another. And I'm with you. Against New York, it definitely felt like a couple of them were just getting into a little bit of hero ball mode. It's almost like it's a disservice when the Aces are hitting so many shots early that they kind of feel like, oh, we can just keep shooting and like not work to get into our flow because really they're at their best when things go through Asia and like they're getting paint touches and spraying the ball back out. And it wasn't as much of that as you would want to see. You know, if you're Becky Hammond and the Las Vegas coaching staff. Something kind of interesting that came up to me is I watch the Aces and when they lose, I'm constantly thinking, like, why isn't Asia touching the ball more? Why isn't Asia touching the ball more? Like, can we get Asia more involved? Like, why are there these possessions where the ball is not coming inside the three point line? And, you know, I looked this up, and she actually takes more field goal attempts in their losses than she does in their wins, which was shocking to me. Like, it didn't compute in terms of my experience watching ASUS games. And maybe this is something like more granular, where, like, she just touches the ball more, you know, and wins. Like, she's facilitating more. But I do think that they kind of went away from their. Their flow. Like, I would agree with you that the whole touch the paint, spray it out. Like, that's the foundation of Las Vegas Aces basketball. And that wasn't really happening in the fourth quarter. Even when they were making shots and cutting the lead, it was just a lot of threes. And like, that's. That's great because the Aces have the type of talent that can sustain that for a bit. But you're also going against the other most talented team in the wnba and you got to be a little bit smarter against them. So I'm with you. I think for as successful as the Aces have been since Chelsea Gray's return, you know, they started 10 2. So if you add these two games are now 113 since Chelsea came back, which is, you know, tremendous. Like, we're not going to, you know, diminish an 113 record, but it hasn't looked quite the same as it did in 2023. And, you know, you mentioned the depth. Like, they have Tiffany Hayes, they have Megan Gustafson, they have, you know, Kate Martin, who is playing a big role at the start of the year. Kirsten Bell is available. Again, I am interested as to why.
- [40:29]
Zena Kaeda
Like, Sidney Coulson. Let's put some respect. She did pretty well against Sidney.
- [40:32]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, they have, like, some, like, functional depth that just maybe the theory of how Becky Hammond wants to coach this team, like, she just doesn't lean into them as much as she could. Like, it's not the same way that Sandy Rondello approaches the New York depth. I am curious, like, if that's going to end up harming them. Like, I think you need to get like 20, 25 minutes out of Tiffany Hayes just to let you know, Kelsey Plum and Jackie Young recover from this Paris experience. And I think you need, you know, more of Megan Gustafson because they're just not guarding Kia Stokes. You look at the way teams are treating her and it's like, oh, we're playing 4 on 5 on offense because she's just hanging out there in the three point line and we don't trust her enough to like, actually make those shots. And I'm not sure if the defensive trade off is worth it because, like, Vegas has been like an average defensive team this year. So is it really worth it to keep Kia Stokes out there and like maintain your average defense if it means that everybody has to work that much harder on offense? I don't know. There's. There's a lot of little things that just like, keep popping up with the Aces and they're little because again, 11 and three since Chelsea Gray came back, but.
- [41:30]
Zena Kaeda
Right, exactly.
- [41:30]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, we're talking about championship margins here. So it all matters, right?
- [41:34]
Zena Kaeda
And I think it's important to put that context in this because this isn't in comparison to the rest of the entire league. It's really in comparison to the people that could take the title. Right. What's going, what are the characteristics, the qualities, the aspects of your offense, your defense, your chemistry on the floor that are going to allow you to be that much better to be able to take home the WNBA title? And when you've done it two years in a row, you set a standard, right? When I think about the Aces and I think about, oh, their offense is clicking, I'm seeing laughs, I'm seeing them running up at the floor, like almost making a mockery of how easy it is to get themselves involved with each other and get the ball in the hoop in that way. And it's scary because it's like, this is like playtime for them. And I haven't seen that level of ease with them in the last few games. I just thought that was very interesting. I also think it's interesting that, you know, when you think about Asia Wilson's touches, as you mentioned, this year, she's averaging four more attempts at the basket than in her previous years, which to me, again, kind of talks about that ease of like, I feel like she's got to go a little bit deeper in the mud to get it out. Right. To get those shots up and get the, the same offensive efficiency than she has in the past. And I would attribute the games that she didn't have Chelsea Gray facilitating for her to definitely, you know, notching that up. But I would like to see the Aces get back to their 21 assists per game type of movement where, like you mentioned, offense is coming through. Asia, there's a little bit more flow to it and it's a little less of hero ball. So let's flip to the other side of the ball. The paint defense and the offensive rebounds, which I think goes together. Right. When you're playing paint defense, the shot goes up, you turn around, you box someone out, make sure that no wings are flying in and getting the ball, etc. I looked this up. You should be so proud of me, Sab. So Aces are typically good at making it very hard to score in the paint when you look at last year offensive reap and also like hard at getting the ball after you try to put a ball up. So last year they were number one at surrendering offensive rebound, which means they.
- [43:56]
Sabrina Ionescu
Don'T give up offensive rebounds.
- [43:57]
Zena Kaeda
Exactly. People got the least amount of offensive rebounds against them. Now this year, they are number two. So not. Not a crazy drop. Okay, Not a crazy drop in, you know, allowing that, but it is a drop in general that you're seeing some people start to take advantage of a little bit more, which I'm surprised because the people that were taking care of that business from last year are still there. It's, you know, particularly Asia Wilson and Kia Stokes. They were also number one in opponent two point percentage, meaning opponents having baskets in the paint were the lowest of any other team. Like how many baskets they allowed in the paint. They've also gone down to just number two. So it's not a crazy drop. It's not a crazy shift, but it's a shift nonetheless that I'm trying to figure out what happened if you still have the same personnel, what's going on that. Is the league just getting better? Are they. Have they figured something out?
- [44:54]
Sabrina Ionescu
I mean, I think it's, you know, the. The not having Chelsea part of it just changed their rotation at the start of the year. And yeah, you know, if you look at just their numbers since Chelsea returned, like, they look like world beaters again. And nothing really seems all that different from when the 20, 23.
- [45:13]
Zena Kaeda
They might go from number two and number one again. Yeah, they might shift right back up to number one maybe.
- [45:17]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah. Again, I'm not even sure it's so much that the Aces have gotten worse, just that the Liberty have gotten better. I really think that's. That's what we're looking at is, you know, I assume that the number one team in at least one of those categories you're referring to was the Liberty. So it's not like the Aces have fallen behind other teams in the league. They're just they're falling behind New York. And that, to me is more a result of the Liberty figuring out how to get better and the Aces kind of not necessarily plateauing, but not reaching another level from what they did last year. And that's. That's a powerful motivator. You know, having lost in the finals in 2023 to this team, you. You spend a lot of time thinking about how you can get better than them. And I think the Liberty have done everything they needed to do to check off those boxes this regular season, whereas the Aces, I'm not going to say they look complacent because that's not how I feel, but I don't know that they are any better than they were last year. And you would hope that a team with so many players in their prime, basically, especially Plum and Young and Asia Wilson, like you would hope that they would all take a step forward. And collectively, I'm not sure that the Aces have taken a step forward.
- [46:21]
Zena Kaeda
That's actually quite interesting. I did not think about that. Okay. I do think that the Aces are in a position where everyone is gunning for them. So anything they do not to the degree that they did it in previous years will seem drastic, but it's actually not that drastic when you look at the grand scheme of things.
- [46:45]
Sabrina Ionescu
Really hard to three peat.
- [46:47]
Zena Kaeda
It's just hard to three peat, and it's hard to continue that level of excellence. And as Asia said, you know, I think it was even before the game ended, but as Asia said, they have to dig deep, dive deep into their hearts to figure out what the hell they want to do. And I'm not worried about the Aces just yet. I'm not worried about them just yet. Before we wrap this up, how much time do the Aces really have to be able to get into the top four of the eight teams that go to the playoffs?
- [47:17]
Sabrina Ionescu
So if we take a look at the standings, they have, what, like, 14 games left? They are in four. So they would host the Seattle Storm if the playoffs were to start today and then potentially have to take on the New York Liberty in the second round. They're only one loss behind the Links. They've got a game left against Minnesota, so I don't think they're going to catch Connecticut just because Connecticut's already played all of their games against New York, so they have an easier schedule going forward. But I think it's very reasonable for them to pull into that. Two, three.
- [47:50]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. Okay. That's good to know, because going into the second half of the season, they were fifth. Right. And then after this weekend, they are now fourth.
- [48:00]
Sabrina Ionescu
Right. Because Seattle lost two games this weekend.
- [48:03]
Zena Kaeda
That's right. Okay, got it. Alrighty, this is good to know. Thank you for that breakdown. And I'm very excited to see the rest of this season, particularly for the Aces as they dive deep a little bit. And also now that they have a little bit of something to chase after, the Liberty are sitting pretty. They're sitting comfy. And you know, the Aces definitely have a little bit of a chip on their shoulder in that regard. All righty, let's talk about our last topic for today. And I know I just was talking about how the. The Liberty are sitting comfy. They're sitting comfy both on the court and off the court. Aces are a little bit hot on the court and off the court. And that is because of a very important lawsuit that is being faced right now with Becky Hammond and the WNBA that was brought on by Dericka Hamby. So, Sabrina, walk us through what we know so far of this lawsuit.
- [49:03]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, so I'll just take a quick step back. Derek Hamby was a member of the aces through the 2022 season. She announced her pregnancy to the team during that season, but then publicly at the parade rally after the aces won the 2022 title. Spends her off season in Vegas and is traded to the Los Angeles Sparks in January of 2023, at which point she details on social media this unfair treatment that she says she's received at the hands of the Aces ever since she announced her pregnancy. She doesn't actually file a complaint or anything, just details this treatment on social media and that prompts the WNBA to independently launch its own investigation. WNBA determines that Becky Hammond is going to be suspended two games for violating workplace conduct, basically treating Derica differently because she was pregnant. And then they also dock the Aces of first round draft pick because they promised dear Hamby impermissible benefits to signer extension, which we've gotten some details of in this lawsuit. So you know, Hamby in the Aces play out the 2023 season after all of those punishments are doled out. But Hamby does file a complaint with the Equal Opportunity, the eoc, an employment complaint, and subsequently files a lawsuit this past Monday. So about a week ago from when this podcast is airing against the Aces and the WNBA for again, the conduct that happened to her while she was pregnant and also to the WNBA for failing to properly investigate it the first time around. And the Aces and the Sparks obviously played each other on Saturday. Deirk Hamby was in Las Vegas for the first time since this lawsuit was filed. And naturally that's gonna bring out some feelings. And you can talk about that, we can talk about that. But suffice to say, I don't think things are gonna de escalate from this point.
- [50:41]
Zena Kaeda
Absolutely not. And we definitely could talk about what the vibe was at Michelob Ultra Arena. But first, you know, Sabrina and I were trying to think of like, is there, has this ever happened? You know, is there a case in which you can think of this ever happening? And there have been several cases across different leagues and organizations in which there's been class action group lawsuits against leagues and ultimately not necessarily discrimination at the base of it, but you know, something monetarily, something with regards to rights, something with regards to a diff. A lot of different things. But the closest that we were able to find there was an NFL player, Aaron Henderson, that used to play for the jets. And this was back in like 2017, 2016. And ultimately he was placed on the non football injury list during his season. And it was mysterious. There was no communication to him as to why he was put on this injury list. And when they investigated it, he believes that he was placed on this list because he was found to have bipolar disorder. And he believed that that was the reason that he was put on the list and ultimately is the reason why he was cut from the team in 2017. Now he sues the Jets. He did not sue the NFL, but he sues the Jets. It ultimately ended up in a settlement out of court, so it was dismissed. But this is the closest that you've had with one player going up against a massive organization like the New York jets and you know, adjacent the NFL. De'Erica Hamby is doing something that is unprecedented, folks. Going up against not only her former organization in the Aces, but also going against the WNBA as a league. And Derica was recently on, in case you missed it, with Christina Williams, another WNBA podcast. Definitely check it out. Great show. And of course was not able to talk about this case, but when being asked about, you know, being a mother in the league and what she hopes can happen in the next cba, the number one thing she said was that there should be better protections for athletes when they speak out. And what happened at Michelob Ultra arena in terms of how she received, was received, I think is a perfect example to what she's talking about. Sabrina, you were, you were able to see this, people were able to hear this, talk a little bit about what Dierica's reception was as a Player against the Aces.
- [53:15]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah. So just again, to back up for a second, De Erica played her entire career with the Las Vegas Aces and the San Antonio Stars before they moved to Vegas. So she'd been a member of that franchise for six seasons before joining the Los Angeles Sparks, arguably one of the most successful players in franchise history. A two time six woman of the year, an All Star, help deliver their first title in franchise history in 2022. Returns this time after the lawsuit. And I was just watching the game on television, so, you know, I wasn't in the arena, but you could hear audible boos every time she touched the ball. And it's not the situation where like, you know, the Sparks are making a run and d'eka hits a big three and, you know, they, they start booing her because of a time and score situation where totally, you know, boo things that happen for the opposing team when it's affecting your home team. You know, it's like when Josh Giddey, you know, played in California and he just got booed every time he touched the ball. Which probably too obscure of a reference for most people listening to this podcast, but just unprompted. Whenever Dericka Hamby, like, was on the court, you could hear the boos and very strange situation considering what she meant to that franchise, the relationships that she still has with players on the team. You know, I remember when the Aces came to play in Los Angeles multiple times this year. You know, she and Kelsey Plum were hanging out. Her daughter is still friends with a lot of the players on the team and just really sad to see how that relationship has deteriorated, not just with the organization, but with the fan base itself. That they would take it upon themselves to boo her for reporting discrimination is not a choice that I would have made were I a Las Vegas Aces fan. But again, just really, really sad, really disappointing. And then we get to the end of the game after the Aces have won, and Becky Hammond is being asked about the lawsuit and for the first time, I think really starts to go on the defensive. You know, she had a press conference after she was suspended last year and it was really measured. You know, she just denied what Hamby had said. She said that she thought her relationship with Derica was always on the up and up and didn't treat her any differently, like, or discriminate against her because of the pregnancy. And this time she seemed really upset, you know, after a game when her team had won by like 16 points. You know, pretty comfortable win, whatever. But obviously her name is being drawn through the mud as a result of this lawsuit. Most. Most of the complaints that Derica has alleged in the lawsuit go directly to Becky Hammond. It's not even the organization as a whole. Like, obviously, she calls out the organization for failing to come through on paying the private school tuition for her daughter. But she specifically claims that Becky Hammond, you know, chided her for not planning her pregnancy, said that she was going to be a liability, they thought she was going to get pregnant for a third time. They. That Becky Hammond said that she didn't fulfill the responsibilities of her extension because she got pregnant, and that they bullied her while she was still a member of the Aces while she was pregnant. And Becky, obviously, like, when something is said about you that you do not believe is true, responded and said that no HR complaint has ever been filed against her in 25 years of being in the WNBA and NBA. That she believes that they provided over the top care to Derek Hammy, that they allowed her to practice when she was ready to practice and let her sit out when she was unable to practice. And I think this is the first time that you can sort of start to see the toll that this is taking on all parties involved. Like, I think about last year with the Las Vegas Aces, how all of these outside factors tended to galvanize them. Like, oh, we got a first round draft pick taken away because we gave impermissible benefits. Like, that's just aces versus everybody, right? Like, you know, when they had the Las Vegas Visitors Authority, like the sponsorship that the city of Las Vegas tried to bestow upon them at the start of the season, and the league immediately decided to investigate that situation. You know, Asia Wilson was just like, you know, it can't always be investigate, investigate, investigate. Like, at some point we just have to let people, you know, put money into the league and grow the league. And you could see, like, those instances really just put a chip on their shoulders. And I think about Kelsey Plum saying at the WNBA Finals last year, you know, like, we've been hurt, sued, arrested, and like, we just. We just keep coming back. Which truly ridiculous thing to say, but again, it did feel like they sort of banded together and came out stronger as a result of these situations. This is so much more personal, what is happening with Dear Kahambi. Like, this is somebody they know, this is somebody they love. And this is something that hits close to home for so many of the people on Las Vegas. Like, especially the ones who are mothers, right? Like, to think that their experience could be colored by the fact that they chose to have A child. I think this is gonna be a lot harder for them to rebound from. I think this is something that is just too directly connected to them. And it's not the kind of thing that you can just say like, oh, everybody's against us because we're the Aces, we're the defending champions. It's a very personal, like deeply emotional matter. And you know, we talked a lot about the Aces in their basketball situation. Like this is just another thing that I think is literally weighing on them over the course of this season, rightfully so.
- [58:06]
Zena Kaeda
It's always going to be attached to their legacy. And until this gets settled out with Dierika, it's always going to be looming over her role in this league and her celebrity. And I think that's the number one thing too. Or not the number one thing, but one of the main things and the main differences, like we were talking about that precedence case of Aaron Henderson suing the Jets. Aaron Henderson, with all due respect, was like a fifth string player. He was not playing much for the Jets. He was kind of non factor. So him getting cut ultimately wasn't that much of a surprise. It wasn't that big of a like a deal for him to get cut. Now you mentioned the accolades two times. Six women of the year with the Aces, a WNBA All Star. This is someone who is of great talent, which also kind of, I think raises the question of the trade, of what happened there, why was she traded? And, and it makes this situation so much more muddied than the average conversation that you would see in the situation with Aaron Henderson. I just feel for De Erica, because while you are trying to focus on trying to be that all stark level caliber player, you're also weighing something huge on your shoulder every time you step out on the court. And the thing about it is, let's just be real, she's weighing something on her shoulder that impacts everyone else in the league. Everyone else cannot look at her and see her and play against her and not realize that what she's doing will impact them in one way or another. Thinking about that impact, how can what this case, you know, in terms of the options and the, the outcomes, what are the potential outcomes and how can it impact the future? CBAs?
- [60:02]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, I mean there's just so many directions we could go with that. But I think at the core of this, like this is a women's professional league, you have to account for the fact that women are going to bear children, women are going to get pregnant, and there has to be like written protections for them. Because this is just a natural part of life, right? Like, it is something that has to be accounted for. The fact that, like, this, I think, is the first time in the CBA where teams have even gotten salary relief for players who have been pregnant. Like, they've actually been paid while they've been out pregnant. Like, before, if you were pregnant, you were just suspended for the season. Like, think about that. Like, you didn't get paid. You just had to sit out and, like, you were literally called a suspended player when you got pregnant before this current iteration of the cba, which is just wild to think about. Like, we're talking four years ago, you know, and just at. At a base, like, level, you know, this is such a normal thing to happen to women for them to want to get pregnant and bear children. And there has to just be an understanding of, like, okay, how are we going to think about it? Like, what are roster spots going to look like? What are contracts going to look like? You know? But then also, this is different than women getting pregnant in a different job because they quite literally are changing how they can perform physically, right? It's. It is a little bit different than if you and I are at a desk job and one of us were to get pregnant. Like, we could probably carry out our work in a very similar manner, you know, to a certain point, as opposed to. Although, all due respect to Derick and Hamby, like, she ended up playing 40 games last season after giving birth in March anyway, so who's to say what, you know, women in the WNBA are capable of anyway? But it's tricky because you would hope the teams want to take care of their players and support their players, but they also have a job to put out a basketball product. And there is a balance that has to be striked here between how do we protect the players and the fact that they are going to get pregnant while also realizing that they need to fulfill the terms of their contract in terms of being basketball players, right? And it's just a really, really complicated issue. And I do think that most of the time when we talk about maternity in terms of the cba, it's okay, well, what kind of childcare stipends do they get? You know, like, do they get extra hotel rooms on the road in terms of bringing care? Like, do we have nurseries in our practice facilities? Like, is there a place for them to breastfeed? Like, all of these things after they've already had the child? And I think something that's kind of been glossed over is, well, this Kind of sounds icky, but like, how do we protect teams when their players are unavailable because they're pregnant? And again, it's gross. But there are injury. When teams get injured in other leagues, you can apply for some salary cap relief. And this is not an injury, but it is something where a player is becoming unavailable. So it's so hard to think about because there's so many interests that have to be balanced. But the heart of it, I would hope that the goal of these policies is we want to protect the women who are choosing to have children. We want to make sure that they feel safe and supported in this environment. And it doesn't appear that that has always been the case because we look at Derek Hamby, we look at the experience that Skylar Dagan Smith has had with both of her children. And I'm just not sure that whatever goal of the maternity policy was like, it hasn't succeeded in making the players feel like they can, you know, be comfortable in this workplace as pregnant women.
- [63:24]
Zena Kaeda
I'm just thinking about how much weighs on this in terms of the outcome because it can't just be a settlement, right? It can't just be, let's, you know, pay money to basically dismiss this. There actually has to be legitimate work done to be able to make these women feel protected to play in this league, to have families, to live their lives as normal individuals while also being professional athletes. It's a delicate balance and it's a delicate situation. But one thing is I'm really proud of Derica for bringing this up because what she's doing is ultimately, as I mentioned, going to impact every single player in this league now. And moving forward, I hope she feels supported. I don't know if there's like a mommy group that's texting and just being like, you're doing it for us, like, we're proud of you. But I'm being supported, fully biased, like taking my journalist hat off and just saying, like, what Derick is doing is one of the most courageous things I've ever. I can't imagine going up against entire league and going up against the back to back champions of a team that's, you know, the league, sweetheart type of thing. I mean, the Aces probably wouldn't think that, but in the sense of just, you know, they're the stars of the league, it feels like you're going up against Goliath. So very, very tough situation for Derica to be in. The details of this case were tough to see as well, you know, the fact that the allegations are that the Aces looked into Derica's medical records, that she was asked to move off of team sponsored housing, that she had been promised her daughter's tuition to be paid in the form of a donation to the school. And that wasn't fulfilled filled. Imagine if you're expecting your daughter's tuition to be paid and then all of a sudden it's just not out of nowhere, the average human would freak out.
- [65:19]
Sabrina Ionescu
And let's be clear, by the terms of the WNBA cba, the Aces are not allowed to do that. They should not have promised to do that, dear Hamby should not have asked for that to happen.
- [65:25]
Zena Kaeda
But exactly. We're not, you know, not condoning any of this. But again, if this is what you've, you've agreed to and this is what you're expecting, it can be a complete flip of your entire life. So we will continue to keep an eye on this because of course, again, it will impact the entire league, it will most likely impact the cba and it's impacting Derick Hamby, you know, every time she touches the floor, specifically against the Aces. So we will definitely and we'll see if there's any more press conference. I don't even know what you want to call. I don't want to call it a blow up because it wasn't a blow up. It was just a concept. It's just a response. Just a response, exactly. From Becky Hammond.
- [66:05]
Sabrina Ionescu
I mean, I just think about, like, how difficult it must be to be a mother in this league, you know, with all of the travel and the way it changes your body and like, Odyssey Sims just joined the Los Angeles Sparks, right? She had been in Dallas previously. That's where she's been living. And she gets the call on Friday evening from Reagan Peebley, the GM of the Los Angeles Sparks, that, hey, we're signing you. You know, we're going to need you to be out here in LA tomorrow for our Saturday game at 2pm and then we're going on the road trip, you know, to Boston. So get ready to go. And Odyssey's relaying the story, you know, again, like Friday evening in Dallas, she gets the call and she's thinking, all right, well, this is my laundry day. I gotta wash my clothes, I gotta find somebody to watch my son. And I'm thinking, like, how are those two the same priority level? Like, this is how, this is how rationally, like, you know, they have to think about all of these things that, like, these are just items on my list that I have to, to check.
- [66:58]
Zena Kaeda
Off, right, guys, my mouth is dropped. Like here I am this morning, annoyed that I had to pay for my health insurance. Like I can't even. I don't. Oh my gosh. That's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. This league is different than any other. That's why this level of care has to be put into this case and ensuring that the, the best outcome comes, you know, comes from this. Well, thank you for that insight on the case and just everything that's going on around it. Again, stay tuned on the, on the site and through the podcast. We'll be definitely covering this for the remainder of the lawsuit and how it all plays out. All right, well, to close out today, just want to do some quick around the association updates. Since we last spoke, there's been some updates as far as things that are going on for the wnba. Number one, Delta Airlines is officially the new airline partner of the wnba. Not super surprising. They had been involved with the WNBA previously. They actually were the airline partner that had carried all of the playoff teams to their games last playoff season. So not surprised there. But they're now officially with all 12 teams. They're part of this expanded charter program that the WNBA released earlier this season. So shout out to Delta getting on board to helping these women get to their games. Next up, by the time you're listening to this tonight, the Connecticut sun are going to be taking on the Sparks in TD Garden. And Sabrina, I'm sure you are very excited for this. Are you going to be in Boston?
- [68:35]
Sabrina Ionescu
Me, die hard Los Angeles sports fan going to TD Garden to watch basketball game? No, not it.
- [68:41]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, didn't think that through. Didn't think that through. My bad. That's, that's my bad.
- [68:44]
Sabrina Ionescu
No, but very exciting that the Connecticut sun have had this opportunity to excite, extend their market a little bit and play at a sold out arena in Boston, which, you know, we've talked a lot about ratings and attendance records that have been set this year and a couple of people have tended to be involved in all of those situations this time. Connecticut Sun, Los Angeles Sparks, Boston, all three unique things. Getting 20,000 people in that building is going to be awesome.
- [69:08]
Zena Kaeda
Look at that, folks. It's not just one or two people that can sell out buildings. All right. And yes, so the Connecticut sign have sold out TD Garden where the Boston Celtics typically play. And this is cool because as you mentioned, expanding their fan base, like people are really trying to make Connecticut sun that New England team. Right. With the New York Liberty getting the New York area, etc. They need that New England team. And as a person that literally was in New Haven for four years, the lack of discussion around Connecticut sun is still always astonished me. I thought there was not enough press and conversation around the Connecticut Sun. That being said, I was at home during summers, so maybe that's why I missed it. But the Connecticut sun, being involved with this historic landmark of an arena and being able to sell it out again, not having those one or two or three names on their rosters, this is dope and this is awesome. Shout out to everyone that is going to the game. I'm very jealous. Have a great time. Don't be as mean as the Celtics fans, though. Just have a good time without all that other stuff. And then, last but not least, before we signed off the podcast last week, the city of Indianapolis, particularly the Pacer Sports Entertainment that owns the Indiana Pacers and of course the Indiana Fever, well, it was announced that they're going to be hosting the WNBA all star game in 2025. I think ESPN was the first to report that. We did a story on it as well. It was interesting because Mellie Raines, the head of PSE Pacer Sports Entertainment, mentioned to the news that they were not the first choice. This happened because someone else wasn't able. There was a. There was a scheduling conflict. So the WNBA picked up the phone and was like, yo, Indianapolis, what's good? Can you host us? So they're gonna have a scramble to the finish line to be able to host this for next year, but they just hosted NBA All Star and they've got some Final Fours coming up. I mean, they're set in terms of being able to prepare for something this big, but this will be their very first time hosting it. So that's really exciting. For the Indiana Fever, of course, obviously, getting to see Caitlin Clark, Aaliyah, Boston. We didn't talk about that this episode, but shout out to the Indiana Fever, who are on a bender right now. They are so fun to watch. I'm like, obsessed. It's been, it's been a lot of fun to see them clicking in the second half of the season. All right, that's around the association. Just want to make sure y'all know that we keep up with the news, too. Don't worry, but appreciate your ear today. I know we covered a lot of ground. Sabrina, appreciate you giving all of your insight as always. And for all of you listening, hit the that subscribe button. I haven't told y'all that in a long time. But let me make sure I do my homework. Hit that subscribe button not only to this podcast, but of course to the athletic. We're covering all of this. Not me, Sabrina, Ben, the whole crew. They're covering all of this. Giving you that in depth analysis that you want. So make sure you subscribe. Leave us comments as always. But on behalf of Sabrina, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for your ear and encouraging you to keep listening, keep watching, keep, keep learning and keep loving the game. Because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. All right, folks, until next time.
- [72:38]
Sabrina Ionescu
As.
- [72:38]
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Sabrina Ionescu
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- [74:05]
Marc Maron
Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at because she's always going like dad, it's not that big a deal. Yeah, I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
- [74:27]
Zena Kaeda
Are you afraid of it?
- [74:29]
Marc Maron
Of death? Well, I don't I think about it all the time.
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Zena Kaeda
How are we here already?
- [74:33]
Marc Maron
Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF.
- [74:48]
Sabrina Ionescu
Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.