How More Expansion Will Impact the WNBA + All-Star Starters

Summary

No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show Episode: How More Expansion Will Impact the WNBA + All-Star Starters
Release Date: July 1, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of No Offseason, hosted by Zena Keita, Chantel Jennings, Sabrina Merchant, and Ben Pickman, the discussion centers around two major topics: the recent expansion of the WNBA and the announcement of the All-Star starters. The hosts delve deep into how the addition of new franchises will reshape the league and analyze the implications of the latest All-Star selections.

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WNBA Expansion: New Franchises Announced

Key Announcement:
The WNBA has officially expanded to 18 teams, starting with Cleveland in 2028, followed by Detroit in 2029, and Philadelphia in 2030. This marks a significant growth phase for the league, aiming to broaden its reach and enhance competitive balance.

Discussion Highlights:

• Ben Pickman’s Insight ([17:13]):
  Ben shares his firsthand experience from being in the room at the WNBA and NBA headquarters during the expansion announcement. He describes the event as "exciting" with representatives from the new teams expressing their enthusiasm for joining the league.

• Economic Factors:
  The expansion fee for the new teams has surged to $250 million each, a substantial increase from the Golden State Valkyries' $50 million fee in 2025. This leap reflects the WNBA's growing commercial appeal and the strategic importance of new markets.

• Ownership and Facilities:
  The new franchises are backed by robust ownership groups, many of whom also own NBA teams. For instance, Cleveland’s new WNBA team will benefit from existing NBA infrastructure, such as shared arenas and practice facilities. Ben notes, "Detroit is going to play in Little Caesars [Arena], where the Pistons play," emphasizing the advantage of established venues.

• Financial Distribution ([25:36]):
  Sabrina explains that the $250 million expansion fee is a "get in the door fee" for owners, separate from any additional investments in facilities or operations. The revenue from these fees is divided among the NBA, a capital raise group, and the WNBA owners.

• Future Expansion Cities:
  While Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia were selected, cities like Miami, Charlotte, Houston, Nashville, and Kansas City were not chosen at this time. Ben speculates that Houston will likely be the next city to receive a WNBA franchise, hinting at the league’s intention to solidify its presence in key markets with strong basketball traditions.

Notable Quote:

Ben Pickman ([22:26]):
"I think Kathy Engelbert had been pretty clear and she's often, you know, very intentional in her language that they were wanting to expand to at least 16 teams by 2028. And when suddenly you saw more than 10 cities submitted bids by this end of January deadline... it wasn't totally shocking that the league made a decision to go to 18."

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All-Star Selections: Starters and Voting Insights

All-Star Captains:
Caitlin Clark and Afisa Collier have been named WNBA All-Star captains, marking a significant milestone as both achieve this honor for the first time in their careers.

Starters Announcement:

• Voting Mechanics ([02:52]):
  The All-Star starters are determined by a weighted system: 50% fan votes, 25% media votes, and 25% player votes. Interestingly, while Caitlin Clark received the highest number of fan votes, she was not the top player based on the overall weighted score.

• Ben Pickman’s Analysis ([03:17] & [04:01]):
  Ben highlights that Paige Beckers emerged as the top guard with a weighted score of 3.25, despite Caitlin Clark leading the fan votes. This underscores the league’s effort to balance popularity with performance metrics.

• Front Court Starters:
  Nafisa Collier and Asia Wilson topped the front court positions based on weighted scores, followed by Brianna Stewart, Aaliyah Boston, Neko Gumake, and Satu Sabali. Angel Reese, despite strong performances, was the first player out due to lower rankings in fan, media, and player votes.

Team Rankings Movement:

• Seattle to Seventh ([07:13]):
  Teams like New York and Seattle have experienced shifts in their rankings, with Seattle dropping from fourth to seventh. Conversely, Atlanta has climbed from fifth to third, bolstered by their recent performances, including a clutch game against the Minnesota Lynx.

Notable Quote:

Zena Caida ([07:03]):
"I thought one of the really coolest parts about this entire voting situation... the top players in the WNBA All Star vote situation got as many votes individually as total combined votes in years past. This is participation, this is growth, this is interest."

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Impact of Expansion on the WNBA

Roster and Competitive Balance:

• Increased Roster Spots ([37:12]):
  The addition of six new teams by 2030 will introduce 60 new roster spots, raising concerns about potential dilution of talent. Sabrina Merchant voices apprehension that expanding from 12 to 18 teams might lower the league’s exclusivity and competitiveness.

• Quality of Play ([40:55]):
  While expansion could surface new stars from previously sidelined players, there is a risk that the overall quality may decrease as talent is spread thinner across more teams.

• Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) Implications ([43:52]):
  The expansion aligns with ongoing CBA negotiations, where players might leverage the increased number of teams to demand better pay and improved player welfare. Sabrina notes, "The players are going to be obviously asking for the main point of fair pay."

Schedule and Logistics:

• Season Structure ([44:20]):
  With more teams and potentially more games, the WNBA faces challenges in fitting into the existing sports calendar. Concerns include overlapping with major events like the NBA playoffs and the World Series, and accommodating arena schedules that host concerts and other events.

• Conference Alignment and Divisions ([46:17]):
  The league may need to revisit conference and division structures to manage the expanded schedule efficiently. Ben speculates on potential schedule conflicts, especially if new teams like Detroit or Houston perform exceptionally well.

Notable Quote:

Sabrina Merchant ([39:57]):
"I think part of the draw of the WNBA, though, in that stretch, and you think about the quality of the league is its exclusivity, the fact that it is the toughest league in the world to make, that necessarily creates a higher quality of play."

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Brainstorming New Team Names

In a lighthearted segment, the hosts engage in brainstorming potential names for the new franchises in Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia, reflecting each city’s unique culture and history.

Cleveland:

• Cleveland Vinyl:
  Reflecting the city’s musical heritage and the presence of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

• Cleveland Voltage/Cleveland Current:
  A nod to Cleveland’s industrial background and historical significance in electrification.

Detroit:

• Detroit Torque:
  Emphasizing the automotive legacy of Detroit.

• Detroit Engineering/Detroit Engines:
  Highlighting the city’s role in the automotive industry.

Philadelphia:

• Philadelphia Liberty/Freedom:
  Drawing inspiration from iconic American symbols like the Liberty Bell.

• Philadelphia Suffragettes:
  Honoring the city's historical role in the women's suffrage movement, though there's concern about the name's connotation with the word "suffer."

Notable Brainstorming Highlights:

• Ben Pickman ([60:03]):
  "We should say, too, the Detroit Pistons have an NBA G League affiliate which are known as the Motor City Crews. So, you know, again, history would tell us the car. The car vibe will be applied in this context too."

• Zena Caida ([58:54]):
  "Cleveland was also apparently the first city lit by electricity. So you could go with Cleveland Voltage. Cleveland Current."

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Community and Historical Context

The hosts discuss the historical significance of reviving franchises in cities like Cleveland and Detroit, which previously had teams like the Cleveland Rockers and Detroit Shock. They reflect on changes in ownership, league stability, and the improved commercial viability of the WNBA compared to its early years.

Discussion Points:

• Ownership Evolution ([50:25]):
  The new ownership groups bring fresh perspectives and resources, differentiating the current expansion from past attempts that saw teams fold or relocate due to financial constraints and lack of support.

• Economic Growth and Support ([52:29]):
  The WNBA's recent growth in viewership, merchandise sales, and corporate partnerships has created a more favorable environment for expansion, contrasting sharply with the challenges faced in the league's formative years.

Notable Quote:

Sabrina Merchant ([54:31]):
"But for Philadelphia, this is an entirely new market, one that we've been talking about for a very long time. Part of me is like, why is there this lack of imagination that we have to just try the same things over and over again?"

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the episode wraps up, the hosts emphasize the significance of the WNBA’s expansion and the potential it holds for the future of women’s basketball. They encourage listeners to share their thoughts on the new teams, names, and the broader implications of expanding the league.

Final Remarks:

• All-Star and Expansion Integration:
  The hosts anticipate that the new teams will introduce fresh talent and dynamics to the league, potentially uncovering hidden stars and enhancing overall competition.

• Ongoing Negotiations and Adaptations:
  With the CBA and league structure adjustments underway, the WNBA is poised to evolve in response to its expansion, striving to maintain balance between growth and quality.

Notable Quote:

Zena Caida ([66:00]):
"We are in a different space economically than that recession in 2008 that took out a lot of these teams. So I am trying to be more optimistic than that."

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Key Takeaways

1. League Growth:
   The WNBA’s expansion to 18 teams by 2030 signifies robust growth and increased market penetration, backed by substantial financial investments.

2. Competitive Dynamics:
   While expansion brings opportunities for new talent and fan engagement, it also poses challenges in maintaining competitive balance and league quality.

3. Cultural Integration:
   New franchises are being thoughtfully integrated into their respective cities, reflecting local culture and history, which is crucial for building a loyal fan base.

4. Future Challenges:
   The WNBA must navigate logistical complexities related to scheduling, player welfare, and maintaining the league’s prestigious reputation amidst rapid expansion.

5. Fan Engagement:
   Increased participation in All-Star voting and the enthusiasm surrounding expansion indicate a growing and engaged fan base, essential for the league’s sustained success.

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Quotes Summary

• Ben Pickman ([22:26]):
  "I think Kathy Engelbert had been pretty clear and she's often... they were wanting to expand to at least 16 teams by 2028... it wasn't totally shocking that the league made a decision to go to 18."

• Zena Caida ([07:03]):
  "This is participation, this is growth, this is interest."

• Sabrina Merchant ([39:57]):
  "The fact that it is the toughest league in the world to make, that necessarily creates a higher quality of play."

• Zena Caida ([66:00]):
  "We are in a different space economically than that recession in 2008... So I am trying to be more optimistic than that."

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Final Notes

No Offseason continues to provide in-depth analysis and lively discussions on the developments within women's basketball. This episode highlights the WNBA's strategic expansion and its implications, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the league's trajectory and the evolving landscape of women's professional basketball.

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Stay Connected:
Subscribe to No Offseason on your favorite podcast platform, follow The Athletic for more insights, and join the conversation on social media to share your thoughts on the WNBA’s exciting new chapter.

Transcript

[Ben Pickman]

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[Zena Caida]

Hello everyone and welcome to no offseason. I'm Zena Caida.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Ben Pickman]

And I'm Ben Pickman.

[Zena Caida]

And today on the show, the WNBA is growing. It's officially official. Starting in 2028, Cleveland will be home to the newest WNBA franchise, with Detroit and Philadelphia jumping into the mix in subsequent years. Whew. We got a lot to get into. I know that Ben and Sabrina have been incredibly busy as of this morning, but first let's dig into some news around the W around this weekend and all star votes are in. It's official. Not much surprise here with the 2 highest fan vote totals. Caitlin Clark and Afisa Collier have been named WNBA All Star captains. A first for each of them, though not the first times making the game apparently. We also now know who the starters are. Ben, I hear you just got the information that everyone else will be reacting to very soon.

[Ben Pickman]

That is true. And one of the things that sticks out is Though Caitlin Clark received the most fan votes, she was not actually the number one player in terms of the overall weighted score. So we should say that starters are announced. 50% fan vote, 25% media vote, 25% a player vote. And so she was not even the number one guard in terms of weighted rank. The number one guard in terms of weighted score, Sabrina, do you want to.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Take a guess just based on who was the top of the fan vote? I'm going to say Sabrina Esu.

[Ben Pickman]

It was Paige Beckers. Paige Beckers is an allstar starter. Number one in rated first time allstar.

[Sabrina Merchant]

We got industrial complex strikes again.

[Ben Pickman]

That is correct. Paige Beckers, number two in fan vote, number five in media, number four in player with a weighted score of 3.25. The other three starting guards, Caitlyn Clark, Sabrina Enescu and Alicia Gray. Was your four starting guard with a weighted score. Skyler Diggins. Yeah, she was ninth on fan, fourth on media, third on player on the front court. On the front court.

[Zena Caida]

Seattle base. What's going on?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, it's true. Nafisa Collier had the overall number one weighted score, 1.5 overall. Asia Wilson, the second highest weighted score of any player. Two Asia was third on fan, first on media, first on player. The other four front court starters, Brianna Stewart, Aaliyah Boston, Neko Gumake and Satu Sabali. First player out was Angel Reese. Fifth on fan, she was 12th on media and 12th on player. So those are your 10 stars.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Those are the same forward votes. You and me both, Ben. Right. That ran that roundtable on Monday.

[Ben Pickman]

Correct. And those are the same six.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So Paige Beckers, you said. What did she get in the media and player votes?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, she was fifth on media and fourth on player, fourth on player.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Paige Beckers.

[Zena Caida]

That's amazing.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So that means first on player among guards was who?

[Ben Pickman]

Alicia Gray was first on play.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Alicia Gray. That's great. Okay.

[Ben Pickman]

Second was followed by Sabrina, followed by Skyler, followed by paige.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Wow. Kayla McBride. Nobody likes her. That's tough.

[Ben Pickman]

We should, we should say in what was announced on Monday the fifth player ranked guard not appearing on the list. So could it be a Kayla McBride? Could it be? Yeah, I mean she seems to be the most likely player.

[Zena Caida]

Right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Fascinating. Paige Becker is also a starter. Bring it.

[Zena Caida]

Where did Kelsey Mitchell end up?

[Ben Pickman]

Kelsey Mitchell was the fifth guard. So you're kind of first guard, not in.

[Zena Caida]

Got it.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I assume she did well in the fan vote.

[Ben Pickman]

Well in fan, well in player, not as well in media. Yeah, I mean it's really interesting, right? Like good For Paige, she ranks 11th in the league in scoring right now. Six and assists, leading rookies in both categories. She had that great game against Phoenix, but I think that will be the headline here that, you know, she makes it as a starter.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm sure Paige is a more deserving all star than Sonia Citron. That's wild. Okay.

[Zena Caida]

I don't know. I'm not surprised by this at all. I think I'm only surprised by this.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm surprised by the fourth on the player vote. That is much higher than I would have expected this early in her career.

[Zena Caida]

I don't know. She's doing it a lot of ways and she's been pretty consistent since she came back, which I think. I don't know. Where did Sony Citron end up? That's actually a good question. Also not listed.

[Ben Pickman]

Not listed.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, I knew Paige was going to do well in the fan vote. To get to second among guards is good work by the Paige fans, but yeah.

[Zena Caida]

Good for her.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Good luck to every other WNBA guard trying to make the All Star team over the next 15 years. There are two spots available for you.

[Zena Caida]

And then angel being the first one out. I wonder, you know, Kiki Iriafan, where'd she end up?

[Ben Pickman]

She was eighth. She was the second forward out. Forwards honestly, a decent gap between six and seven. Yeah.

[Zena Caida]

I thought one of the really coolest parts about this entire voting situation, especially when it came to the fan vote, that pretty much the top players in the WNBA All Star vote situation got as many votes individually as total combined votes in years past. This is participation, this is growth, this is interest. And shout out to all the fans that partook in that, uh, I think that's the word partook. Anywho, the reserves will be chosen by the WNBA coaches later next weekend and one week from today on July 8, Clark and Collier will get to draft their teams. Exciting stuff. But you know what time it is now. Time for the Sabrina scale. Sabrina, how you doing today? How's your scale feeling today?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm thinking about when it has to turn to 18 teams and just a little anxious but, you know, for now, 13. It works. It works.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah. Right, right. Don't have to worry about that until 2030, but there's been a little bit of movement in the 13 that you have for this week. You got New York sliding down from three to five, Seattle sliding down from four, four to seven. But Atlanta moving on up. They went from five to three and Valkyries cracked the top five. Shout out the bay. So what's on Your mind, what made these movements for you?

[Sabrina Merchant]

So I think the best game actually I've watched all season came this weekend between Minnesota and Atlanta. And even though Atlanta ended up losing that game to the Lynx, losing to the number one team in the league in overtime doesn't really disappoint me that much. You know, I think the effort was there and seeing how Atlanta came back from a pretty large deficit in the first half against the Lynx, just the clutch time execution I thought was so good on both sides. This is a rare instance of Cheryl Reeve using two challenges in the final minutes and both of them coming up successful on overturned fouls. Just a masterclass in coaching from the reigning coach of the year. So I think that Dream performance combined with then beating the Liberty on Sunday is what, you know, vaults them up a couple spots. But, uh, if you're looking at the links and saying, oh, well, they lost earlier this week, well, that was without any piece of Collier. And I think what they did in the games afterwards is well deserving of maintaining that number one spot.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm looking at the way that the Dream also scored 52 points in the paint in comparison to Minnesota's 24. Yes, they took the L, but solid showing inside for sure.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, it just comes down to Atlanta is still very much learning how to win these close games against the league's upper echelon. And it was something we saw in their Commissioners cup loss to New York, a game that had they won, you know, Atlanta would be in the Commissioners cup, which we should say the championship is Tuesday night. So today when you are listening to this podcast. But had Atlanta beat New York a couple weeks back, the first time these teams played, they would have been in the title game. As a result, they are not because they lost that game. They did, of course, as you mentioned, Sabrina, get revenge over the weekend. But you're totally right. Like Atlanta continues to compete. We see them late game situations. They're still very much learning, you know, what lineup combinations are best to trot out there. And we should say Ryan Howard, we don't know the extent of her injury. She left their game against New York with an injury. There's a little bit of questions too about who's producing. Right. On a game to game basis. Very much in that Minnesota game, I want to say all but 12 points that, that the Dream scored were by their starters. Right. That we know that Dream also have a pretty good bench, you know, Nas Hillman, Maya Caldwell, Nia Coffey. Like they have taken a Papa a number of contributors. So they're figuring it out still. But I agree with you on the, you know, the instinct to move them up because I think the dream have shown that they can certainly compete with the league's upper echelon here.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, it definitely felt like a tussle between really playoff like teams. I mean, if the energy was there, you saw the bumping and the battling a little bit. And to your point, Ben, bench points were not the factor here. These were the starters, these were the big stars going up against each other. Only 12 to 13 in terms of bench point comparison there. So I'm excited for whenever these teams get back together. Um, I'm particularly excited for more content of Nafeesa Collier telling Rein Howard calm down. As if she's talking to, you know, someone within her family. It was so funny to like Mila. To Mila. Right, Exactly. Um, I'm sure Alex Wiesel also gets those same kind of comp. But just the. It was just so funny seeing the dynamic between the two of them and. And just the entire team. You could tell that these teams want to duel it out next time around. Okay, let's also talk about the Valkyries, cuz you moved them up, cracked the top five. What. What was going on there? What'd you see? I know what I saw, but I want to know, what'd you see?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I just continue to be supremely impressed by how good the home court advantage is at the Chase center, or, you know, Valhalla, I guess, is how we should be putting it. I. We don't really need to call it the Chase Center.

[Ben Pickman]

It's.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's Valhalla.

[Zena Caida]

Nope, it's Valhalla.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I, you know, was. I was tempted to look into which teams have the biggest home road disparity just because it seems like the Golden State crowd gives them, you know, a boost unlike any other. They do have, you know, one of the better home ratings in the wnba. It's not as high as I thought it was going to be. They're actually only like sixth in terms of home net rating. There's a lot of. A lot of good home teams, but that split between home and road is the third highest in the wnba. So I would love to see what Valkyries look like when they have to go on the road now that their lineup is coming back from Euro basket. Congratulations, Team Belgium, by the way. What a freaking finish in that final.

[Ben Pickman]

But that might have been the game of the weekend, Sabrina.

[Zena Caida]

Now if you guys can go listen to the call, the final call. In that game. It's worth the listen. It is a crazy, just crazy energy.

[Ben Pickman]

Belgium, Spain. We should say final. Yeah.

[Zena Caida]

Belgium. Swain. Yep.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Just seeing the way the Valkyries have executed at home, I'm just so enamored with that building the vibe, the atmosphere that they've created in year one. And I don't necessarily doubt the Valkyries on the road, but I'm curious how much of their success has been catapulted by just what an incredible atmosphere that is versus how much the team is still coming together. So now that they're going down the road, it's going to be a very interesting test for them.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, I'm really happy we're talking about the Golden State Valkyries because the day that we're recording this, the WNBA has announced those three teams, right. Cleveland, Philadelphia and Detroit. And we're talking about expansion teams. And the larger story going into this season was we have no idea what to expect with the Golden State Valkyries. Not only we don't have an idea what to expect from what's going to be the product out on the court, but also we don't know what to expect for the vibe. How is the city going to, how is the Bay? How are they going to, you know, take in this team? Sure, I think everyone knew that there was gonna be some level of support because the Bay has always wanted women's basketball, pro women's basketball especially to come and take root here. But I don't know if anyone had a true understanding of the atmosphere that has been created at Valhalla. And now this is an opportunity for us to talk about what could possibly happen in these new cities as they some of them return a team and then some of them will have the opportunity to take new ro. So let's talk about it on the other side of this break.

[Ben Pickman]

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[Zena Caida]

So it's official. Cleveland will be the next WNBA expansion team set to start in 2028, followed by Detroit in 2029 and Philadelphia in 2030.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Whew.

[Zena Caida]

That's crazy. We haven't mentioned remember, Portland and Toronto are still coming too. They're just coming a little bit sooner. So Ben, you were literally in the room at the WNBA NBA headquarters in Midtown Manhattan this morning for the announcement. Let us know what happened. How did it go down?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, it was a pretty exciting day for a lot of people in the WNBA NBA offices in Midtown Manhattan. A lot of people from each of the respective groups have piled into basically one room. There was about 10 to 15 media members also in attendance. And we kind of waited and we waited actually. Some Miles Davis like the waiting music in the NBA WNB offices for those who care is a lot like, you know, kind of your your Airlines jazz Both of Miles DAV just he's better than airlines jazz, I should say, but just other kind of instrumental jazz but that's neither here nor there. That's not why people came for this show. And then suddenly, representatives are. Maybe it is. Look, I mean, we can talk airlines, jazz as much as people want in future episodes. But then representatives from each of the three teams got up on stage next to Kathy Engelbert, and they began this kind of proceeding where, you know, Kathy gave some introductory remarks, Jess Sims was the host of it. And then, you know, each of the three teams had people from their respective groups and cities get up and speak and just talk about how excited they all were for what is to come in the future, for both this kind of milestone and momentous day in the present, and what it all means for their ownership groups, their cities, their fan base. As you mentioned, Zena, for two of these teams in Detroit and in Cleveland, these are former WNBA markets. Both of these franchises or cities had franchises kind of in the early to mid 2000s, in the case of Detroit, all the way up until, I want to say, 2008, 2009. But for Philadelphia, this is a totally new market, so they have their own level of excitement without this kind of shared history in the wnba. So there's a lot to get into. But then it just became a lot of people talking, media talking to representatives, different press conference scrums, people from different groups, just whoever was there, just all kind of talking about the moment that was on Monday morning.

[Zena Caida]

Did you feel like there was, like, a general consensus of excitement around this? Like, I feel like. I know a lot of people are really excited about it, period. Because there's. There's growth in the WNBA of any sort. Right. Whether it's roster expansion and it's city expansion, I think anytime you see growth in the W, you're really happy about it. However, there could be feelings of like, where's the South? Where's the south representation? Right. Or, you know, maybe something middle of the country. Yeah, right. The middle of the country, for one. Yeah, exactly. Like the fact that maybe some folks wanted roster expansion before they wanted a city expansion. As you walked around the room, as you were hearing conversations, what were some of the things that you heard about how people were reacting and responding to this?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's kind of our jobs as reporters in the room, both on a day like Monday and also for the many weeks and months and years to come as this process or for each of these teams plays out to continue to ask those questions for the people in the room, they were really excited. Like, you know, Detroit was stoked that they had just gotten a WNBA team that they were announcing. Cleveland. You know, they started to actually sell season tickets and I believe some merchandise too, on Monday afternoon, right away, like shortly after the announcement. So they were excited about just the initial flood of interest. Same with Philadelphia. Right. Knowing what is to come. Like, the people in the room were very much trying to, to think positive. Now, if you were part of the Nashville ownership group or the Kansas City ownership group or the Houston ownership group, and we'll talk about them specifically a little bit later. Like, I'm not sure what your reaction is to the news. I mean, personally, like, I wasn't totally surprised that the WNBA elected to go to 18 teams. I think Kathy Engelbert had been pretty clear and she's often, you know, very intentional in her language that they were wanting to expand to at least 16 teams by 2028. And when suddenly you saw more than 10 cities submitted bids by this end of January deadline, thinking about what the evaluation fee, the expansion fee rather could be knowing how much interest there was, knowing that, you know, these are a lot of well financed groups who want to get involved with the league, some of which are already NBA owners. Like, it wasn't totally shocking that the league made a decision to go to 18. What I think is interesting is that they announced it all in one swoop on one day that I think further built to the excitement. But then of course, they make the decision to roll it out year over year. So, yeah, I mean, look, I don't like, you know, if you're living in Miami right now, there's no WNBA team coming there and we'll see if they're ever one, like there ever will be. I guess that's why you have unrivaled, if you are a fan of women's basketball down in the South Florida market.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So just speaking of expansion fees real quick, I think you mentioned, you reported in the newser that went up on the Athletic yesterday that the fee for each of these teams is 250 million, right?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So if we think about Golden State entering the league in 2025 and their expansion fee was 50 million, and now Cleveland in 2028 going all the way to 250 million. Why would you let Detroit and Philadelphia come in at that price now when theoretically you could wait longer and potentially drive that up even further?

[Ben Pickman]

That's a great question, Sabrina. And honestly, that was, you know, one I don't think we have a firm answer to. I think what, you know, what was clear about the kind of process that went on here Philly is the most interesting From a Y 2030 perspective, I would say, because Philly's 2030 start date is very much tied to a new arena that they are planning to build in Philadelphia. Right. And so there's this new arena that was announced, I believe, earlier this winter that the Philly ownership group, and we should say that group is the Harris Blitzer Group. They're the same owners who own the NBA's Philadelphia 76ers. They have plans to build this new arena and open it by 2030. One was the initial projection. You know, their hope is, what Josh Harris said is who's the, you know, the managing partner of the group. He said that, like we've told everyone that the new arena is set to open in 2031. They're sticking to that, but now they're kind of putting some pressure on themselves to get it open by 2030. So they're kind of hoping to do that by then. And that is why there's such a long Runway on the Philadelphia part of this process. So, you know, Cleveland, Kathy Engelbert said, you know, she didn't want to say if there was one that was the first choice or the first one that they decided upon, but she did say that like they were ready now was basically Cleveland was ready now was a direct quote from her. They have again, an NBA arena, we should say NBA arenas, these full size big arenas. All three of these teams do. Detroit is going to play in Little Caesars where the Pistons play. Cleveland, that franchise is going to go, is building new practice facility for the NBA's Cleveland Cavaliers. The Castle moved there. And the current facility that the Cavs use, which is a really beautiful and I want to say relatively new facility too, that's where the WNBA team, so kind of answering your question about timeline, like they made a decision to announce it all now. They had looked at the bids in January. They said they came to a number. First we want three new teams. And then they were like, okay, we're going to pick these three. And so they kind of did it all in one swoop as a result.

[Zena Caida]

Now the fees before at least, you know, looking at Portland, looking at Toronto and their fees to enter, the WNBA included the fee for a facility. And I guess that wasn't the case for the Golden State Valkyries because they already had their facilities incorporated for the teams that are the NBA teams that are basically allowing their WNBA teams to utilize their facilities. Does the financing of that not get incorporated into the 250 million? I guess I'm trying To figure out what is included in that 250 if you already have facilities.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I think the 250 is just an expansion fee. It's basically a like get into the league fee for an owner in both the WNBA and the NBA. Because we should say that because of how the leagues are structured, like NBA owners also financially profit as a result of WWNB expansion. The 250 is like the get in the door fee. And then these teams are obviously going to spend a lot more money for everything that that goes into it. Right. Detroit is going to differ. Yeah.

[Zena Caida]

How does that differ from the get in the door fee that Toronto and Portland paid?

[Ben Pickman]

I guess in terms of which numbers. Yeah, you guys.

[Zena Caida]

So why not?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Golden State's $50 million was an expansion fee. And then Portland had a number that was reported around 115 million. But I think about 60 of that was the expansion fee. And the remainder of it was dedicated towards that practice facility that the Thorins and the Portland WNBA team are building together. The Toronto number was also reported like in concert like facility with the expansion fee put together. But like Ben was saying, these two 50 million seem like straight up expansion fees. So all of that money goes to the NBA WNBA umbrella. And we should specify that like because The NBA owns 42% of the WNBA, they get 42% of that. 16% goes to that capital raise group that was, you know, conducted in 2021. And then the remainder of that 42% goes to the actual WNBA owners. So there's some double dipping there. Obviously there are NBA owners who are WNBA owners and so on and so forth. But that 750 million doesn't just all go into WNBA operations, gets split further.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, got you. Okay, so now I'm looking at the cities that were chosen. Of course we just mentioned Miami. There's also Charlotte that had a team formally the Charlotte Sting. And of course we see the Detroit Shock, you know, their history kind of being brought back to the forefront. But there's another team, the Houston Comets, that are not in this conversation. And then on top of it, there's all the teams that had bids in. We mentioned Nashville, we mentioned Kansas City. Like why these cities over the others?

[Ben Pickman]

It's a good question. And we should say that you rattled off some of the cities who did not get awarded teams. We'll hit some of the news that came out on Monday too. I mean, Kathy Engelber wanted to get to 18 clearly by the end of 2030, the end of the decade. It is a safe bet that when, if and when the W NBA expands next, that Houston will be on that list. She point blank said today, I guess on Monday during her availability that quote, Houston would be next, would be up next for sure. There might be opportunities there. And then went on to say that, you know, they wanted to take our time to evaluate the right number to go to by the end of the decade. She then was asked if that was a kind of formal declaration that the WNBA would be going to Houston. She pushed back on that notion, but she did then go on to acknowledge the history that they have. She also mentioned Houston specifically in her public press conference that she gave that anyone could have watched. So it's pretty clear Houston, which also has an NBA owner in Tillman Fertitta, is of interest to the WNBA as a future landing spot. When that happens, whether it's 2031, 32 beyond, who knows. But you know, if you're a Houston Comets fan, not the news you wanted this week to start your 2025 summer. But doesn't seem like all is lost to the question then, Zena, of why these respective cities? I mean, I think it came down to a number of factors and the league likes to say it's like 20, 25 factors. They're looking at psychographics, demographics, you know, what other graphics are there? Sabrina, your way. You used to be a teacher. Like throw out some graphics. I don't know, visual graphics. Like what, what else? Studying. When they come to their announcements.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I don't even know what the word psychographics mean. I've heard Kathy use it like 35 times.

[Zena Caida]

I'm sure there's a geographical aspect too of like where these facilities will be and where these. Okay, that makes sense. We can add that to geographics, all of it.

[Ben Pickman]

Geographics is definitely one of them. I mean, they're looking at all this data and they're also looking at, you know, ownership investment, obviously. Like how much money is an ownership group going to pour into the team? They're looking at facilities is clearly important and it has been important throughout this entire wave of expansion. Right. Think about Golden State Chase center, where the Valkyries talk, you know, where they play. We mentioned that's a pretty new arena. When did it open, Xena? In 2020, 19. 2019. A pretty new arena, right. They re, you know, renovated, poured a ton of money into their practice facility, which you've seen firsthand, which is beautiful.

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely gorgeous. Stunning.

[Ben Pickman]

Right.

[Zena Caida]

Toronto Performance Center. Right.

[Ben Pickman]

Sephora Performance Center, Toronto. You know what, building a new practice facility, I believe right next to our world Class, you know, NBA Arena, Portland, Sabrina mentioned it. They have this facility that they're going to share that they're going to build this new complex with the thorns of the NWSL for practice. There are renovations currently going on on Modis center as well to spruce up that arena in that city. And then you have the three that I just rattled off with either new arenas and or new practice facilities and or plans to do that. And so like creating world class environments for players clearly, I mean seems like a non negotiable as this process progressed.

[Zena Caida]

And it does seem like that is why teams that have NBA ties feel like they continue to come to the forefront. You already have these facilities. You also are well aware of what it takes to be able to provide the materials and resources necessary for a professional athlete to feel like they are being well taken care of. So it'll be interesting what you know, smaller ownership groups do or ownership groups that are outside of the NBA. Portland Thorns I think is like an interesting one. But still being able to play at Moda center, that is still a tie to NBA Arena.

[Sabrina Merchant]

We should note regarding arenas that Toronto is not actually playing at an NBA arena. They're playing at the Coca Cola center which is like a 10 to 12,000 capacity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Zena Caida]

Yes.

[Ben Pickman]

And we should say too, like this is what I asked Kathy at her public press conference. I mean I asked her basically what was her message to non NBA affiliated teams that bid and that might want to bid going forward. And she kind of cited that both Toronto and Portland are not technically NBA affiliated teams. However, the ownership group of the Raptors, I believe it's Larry Tannenbaum of Kilmer Sports Group of this WNBA team, sorry, Toronto wnba. They also have ties. What they were the majority partner and now they might be a minority partner, whatever. They have some stake in the NBA Raptors. And Portland's group is the Bethal family. They are minority partners or a member of their family is with the NBA Sacramento Kings. Now she said, you know, she cited them as kind of non technical affiliates and that is true. Right. They're not like the, the Liberty and the, you know, and the Nets for instance, or the Valkyries and the Warriors. But like Teresa Resch who is the president of the Toronto WNBA team, where did she come from previously? Take a guess folks. She came from the Toronto Raptors. Right. Like we're seeing some shared resources there already. So the message, I think you can kind of conclude what, what you want and it's certainly something we, we have our eyes on going forward about you know, is this the end of totally non affiliated groups without NBA ties?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Especially as a piggyback on that real quick with NBA ownership. If you're a little cynical as I am about all of these NBA owners getting back into the W, you'd be, I think, perfectly justified in that because the WNBA and NBA originally started as completely shared ownership groups in 1997 when the league debuted. And the reason why all of these teams contracted or you know, moved to separate locations. The Detroit Shock are one of those who ended up moving to Tulsa and now they're the Dallas Wings was because the NBA owners decided they wanted out, even though that WNBA expenditures was probably just a fraction of what they were spending on NBA teams that were probably losing a lot more money there. You think about the Bus family getting rid of the Los Angeles Sparks or the Cleveland Rockers disbanding or you know, Detroit or Orlando or a whole bunch of other teams, the Portland Fire, right, Like who are under the same ownership as the Portland Trailblazers. And so for all of the NBA teams who have like cried about how the WNB does make them any money and how they are, you know, why are we still propping this thing up for the last decade now? Just want back in is I guess they just recognize the business proposition here. But it's a little disappointing to see the WNBA just allowing this to happen all over again. When you look at the very recent history of the WNBA and how poorly this went the first time around.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, I mean I think that's the, it's the blessing and the curse of the WNBA growth and expansion is that everyone wants back in, everyone wants to be a part of it, understandably, because it is growing is hot. It is fire. It is also a, A, a product right now that everyone feels is authentic. Like we just talked about that Lynx dream game. That is the regular season game that felt like playoff basketball. And I think a lot of people have looked at, you know, other products, particularly across at the NBA side and they're like, ah, some of these regular season games don't kick the way they used to. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't hit the same way until the playoffs. I think the regular season was wonderful, but I've heard that folks think that about the NBA. So you go to a WNBA game and the season is so short. Every game feels so detrimental to what you, where you want to end up towards the end of the season. So those games mean so much more. And that product, I think everyone wants to be a part of Owners are starting to see it. On that note, though, I will say I'm a little biased here in the Bay. I do love that the ownership of the Golden State Valkyries was someone that got their team taken away. Joe Lacob had the San Jose Lasers and the ABA folded going into the wnba, and so he wasn't able to get his team. So that actually feels good that this was an owner that always wanted to be in the WNBA space and now it finally is. Let's keep it going, though. This is a great insight into the actual announcement day, Ben. But now we got to actually talk about what this looks like in practice, because that is the most interesting part that, you know, we're really excited about. You know, in theory, this is awesome, but in practicality, if we're being realistic, what does this look like in terms of having 18 teams by 2030, but as of right now, still 12 roster spots? Right? What does that actually, you know, lay out to? And Sabrina, I want to start with you because this is something that we've talked a little bit about on this show about the new talent coming in from the international perspective. We just looked at this draft that went through. We've looked at many years of drafts come through, and these rookies get drafted and then they get cut, they get waived. This seems like it's a good thing. There's now more spaces, right. Available in the league. But what would you say to that? How would you kind of lay it.

[Ben Pickman]

Coming back to plays? You know, are you going to come back or they're going to looking for.

[Zena Caida]

I think you need to have a long, long conversation with my knees. They would probably tell you, absolutely, the hell not. My mind and my heart would be like, yeah, finally everybody's on board. They see what they see the vision. But yeah, the rest of my body would be like, absolutely, absolutely not. So let's think about it, though, because there's some players that would love some spots, some older players, right, that come to mind that feel like they kind of got forced out a little early because there just wasn't enough spots. Who knows? It feels like this is a good thing, but I'm also like, is this too much too soon? What do you think?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I think that's going a lot of different directions. I'm going to start with the roster spot question. You know, for years when the WNBA only had 12 teams, it was a common refrain for players saying, like, oh, we have a whole extra league just training at home, right. All the players who have been cutting, who aren't able to find a place to, you know, stay on a roster. And admittedly, when it was at 144, I think you could sufficiently say there was more talent beyond the WNBA that could play at a WNBA level. And you think about not only the college players who couldn't make their way back in the league, like you said, Xena, older players who were forced out, you know, to make room for the younger players, European players, like, all of that adds to the pool. I think part of the draw of the wnba, though, in that stretch, and you think about the quality of the league is its exclusivity, the fact that it is the toughest league in the world to make, that necessarily creates a higher quality of play. Right. And yes, there are players who probably could be, you know, in that, let's say, like lower 25th percentile of players and make a WMA roster and there's not enough spots currently for them and they could find a way onto a roster now when there was going to be five more teams by the end of the decade. But that's going to dilute, I think, the quality of the individual teams. Superstars are going to get more spread out. And I don't know that you can consistently say that this is the toughest league in the world to make if you keep adding more and more teams. So the branding changes a little bit. I think anytime there's expansion, you have to worry about is everyone going to meet the standard that this league has already set. And maybe it's one thing when you add 1, 2, 3 teams, when you add from 12 to 18, that's you're increasing the size of league by 50%, right? That's an enormous number of people who are being added to the league. And I'm not saying that people can't eventually get to that level. I just think that there's, you know, an expectation that there's going to be some growing pains, right? It's going to take some time to find a stable of players who can meet the standard that the WNBA set when it was a league of 144. And so that's. That's the first thing that sort of came to my mind is like, oh, my God, there are so many teams that are going to be added, so many roster spots, and yet we're still at a situation where I'd imagine Most teams have 12 and we're in the, can we carry 11? Can we carry 12? Like, where are the hardship players going to come from? Where are they going to come from now that they're all going to actually be on rosters. So the pace at which this is all happening is a little concerning to me.

[Zena Caida]

It does feel like, Ben, that the conversation around depth, right, what Sabrina's alluding to seems like there won't be much depth because it's all gonna be. They're gonna be rostered, they're gonna be on teams, they're gonna have jerseys on. But there's also this element of like, let's look at the last expansion team. Let's look at the Golden State Valkyries and some of these six women of the year that now have an opportunity to showcase their ability to be stars. You know, what are your thoughts on the expansion? Could actually reveal some stars that might be kind of sitting on some benches. You know, what's your thought to what Sabrina's talking about in terms of this could dilute the quality of play.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, it definitely could reveal some stars. But, you know, you're going to add 60 players to the league over the course of the expansion process at least, right? 12 times five, I guess, at maximum. Not all those players are going to be stars, right? Some of those players, as Sabrina mentioned, like, might not be ready just yet to, you know, be in what was the. The hardest league to crack out there. And so Sabrina's right, that it will be really interesting to monitor how, you know, who you know, enters the league when, right? We should say, like this decision all what is going on right now, it occurs amid an ongoing CBA negotiation, right. Does anything change in terms of when players can literally enter the league, right. Like, do you have to stay in college four years? Are they going to change draft eligibility rules? Like, I don't have any reporting firsthand on that now, but it begs an interesting question about, you know, that as a potential change, right. The, the length of the season, how does that, you know, how is that affected by the decision to go, you know, to 18 teams by 2030 right now, right. We're at a 44 game schedule. It's already a record and it will continue to grow. And this is something that is renegotiated. What is the footprint of the season? What does it look like in an Olympic year, right, when the league suddenly takes a, you know, a few week break during the Olympics? Like, these are all some of the logistical questions that come with scale. And Kathy Engelbert used the word scale during some one of the scrums she gave. But she really talked about it in the context of when you're a sports league, you need scale. And how do you get scale? You get scale by more teams? Right. Some could argue that right now, maybe. Should the WNBA have gotten more scale by scaling up its current roster size from 12 to 15? That's an argument, obviously we have seen from a labor standpoint too. What I think is so interesting is, like I mentioned it, there's an ongoing negotiation right now. We'll see when that deal, if and when it gets signed. It wouldn't be crazy that by the time Philadelphia entered the WNBA they were renegotiating another deal. Right. I know it's like a long ways out, but like, you know, there's opportunity there with the potential opt out in the deal to come that like they're talking again and trying to learn from some of the progress and some of the mistakes and shortcomings of the agreement that hasn't even been signed yet. Like, that's how long we are talking down the road. So, you know, it is going to be a gradual process and I think the league is kind of resting on that idea. We're discussing that idea as it relates to expansion to try and kind of answer the question Sabrina had about dilution talent. But you know, we're going to sit back in 2030 or 2031 and I think like we'll have to see, like, what does it look like? And especially because the high talent pool right now, the WNBA is part of what I think so many fans are gravitating to. Right. Just like all the stars on so many teams, how loaded all these rosters are.

[Sabrina Merchant]

The labor question is really interesting. I think it sort of speaks to like why the WNBA wanted to announce all of these teams now because they're going into negotiation with, oh, we just brought in $750 million in expansion fee. We just created 36 more new roster spots. What are you the players going to bring to the table in this case? So that I think that answers why they're willing to potentially sacrifice some money on the back end to have this negotiating advantage, so to speak, as they work through this current collective bargaining agreement. So that labor is a really good point.

[Zena Caida]

And that's a really good point, Sabrina, because this whole CBA situation, the players are going to be obviously asking for the main point of fair pay. And we can talk about that in a different show. But they also are going to be asking for things about player welfare and more teams, to me and anyone means more games. And when you think about more games, that's also talking about the schedule. How do we think that these teams being added into the Mix will impact the ways in which the WNBA fits into the sports calendar. And let's be real, it's not just sports calendar, because the WNBA games overlay, you know, the concerts and all the summer things that happen at these particular arenas that they play in. How will this work?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, I think a good thing about the NBA owners coming in is that they have control over their arenas, right? So they have more say in the dates and can accommodate more WNBA games because, you know, they're the ones who make the calendars. Unlike some of the arenas that existing WNBA teams play in, their ownership does not control the arena. They're at the behest of, you know, whatever that group decides. So that's, that's a good thing as you're going to expand the footprint of the WNBA calendar, to have control over how often when you can play is a good thing. But we mentioned labor like this is going to be a point of negotiation, right? The players have to play more games. If there are more teams, that is a concession you're going to have to make if you want to make more money, too. Does it go to 50 games? Does it go beyond 50 games? Like, are we talking about starting the season earlier? That seems like it'd be even harder for college players, frankly. Are you going to start the season or end the season later and, you know, dip further into football and like, go up against the World Series with baseball? Like, all of these are considerations that the WNB has to make Because I don't think it makes a lot of sense to just add more games to the current May to October space because we already have players complaining about what physical toll that is taking on their bodies.

[Ben Pickman]

Well, well, it also begs the question too, about conference alignment, right? Do you go back to conference alignment and do you, you know, factor that more heavily into how the schedule is made? Like, literally, do you change how many times a team plays a certain team that is in their conference or not? Like, do you add divisions in a certain way? Like, there are some of these big questions that as the league expands, it's a big one, to Sabrina's point, about expanding the literal footprint. Think about the fall, for instance. Right now, the WNBA finals end around, I want to say, like October 18th, October 20th, or they did last year. Right. ESPN is currently broadcasting ABC, the Finals. Well, they are also a lead rights holder on college games. Right. And so you suddenly have two properties that might butt up against each other even more than they already do. There's just a lot of the kind of opportunities, I guess for more conflict, think about if the Detroit Pistons were to go on a big, you know, a run throughout the playoffs, the finals and a deep playoff run in, you know, 2029. Cade Cunningham's leading the, you know, leading everything. Or, you know, if Houston were to get a team, Jabari Smith, maybe down the road. See, we had to sneak Junior to the podcast. Junior recently resigned.

[Zena Caida]

Right, right, right.

[Ben Pickman]

You know, maybe the, the Houston team in 2030, if that ever existed. Or 2033, rather. Or who knows who's going to be playing on the Philadelphia 76ers in 2030. Right. Like the conflicts of schedule, it's just ripe for conflict.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah.

[Ben Pickman]

And we, you know, people are already starting to, you know, you're seeing in the Bay Area right now, you know, what happens if the Valkyries make the playoffs. I think we're a long way away from that. I know everyone wants to pencil them in, but, like, those conversations are starting to be had. It seems like you're asking people about that or people are talking about it. Like, fans care a lot about that. And it's a terrible look optically when you know your team, your WNBA team, is in the playoffs and we have seen this in past years, and they are, in essence, relegated to a secondary arena for their most important games. Like, that's a thing of people hope. That is a thing of WNBA past, not a thing of WNBA future.

[Zena Caida]

And just to back up on when you're, when you were talking about conference alignment, like in the NBA, it makes sense. You got 30 teams and you can't afford to play every single person the full amount of times that you would play them. So you only play the folks in your conference or on your side, whether, you know, east and west. You play them a certain amount of times. I think it's like five or five times or so. And then within the actual, when you go over to the opposite conference, you only play them twice a year. So there's much lesser, there's much less opportunities for you to play people across your conference just so that you're not having so many games throughout the year. I really, I really want to know how this is all going to play out, because it's one of those things where sometimes you can get ahead of yourself and get so excited about the growth that you don't quite see the trees in the forest. Right. And you don't quite see how this is all going to play out. And we're already seeing players complaining about this schedule, so we will not, I mean, we don't know what's going to happen when it comes to next year. But let's talk a little bit about this. These franchises that are coming back around, and they're having kind of like a, you know, a second chance, a second coming, essentially. You know, two of the cities that previously had WNBA teams, Detroit had the Detroit Shock from 1998, when the league was starting at 2009, is when they folded, went to Tulsa, then became Dallas, as Sabrina mentioned earlier. And then the Cleveland Rockers. And from 1997-03, Cleveland folded and Detroit won three titles before it moved. I'm wondering what makes it different this time around for particularly these two teams that existed right when the league started.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, one of the big changes is ownership, right? Different people at the top of these respective organizations. You know, for the case of Cleveland, for instance, Gordon Gund was the original owner of that WNBA franchise. He also owned the Cleveland Cavaliers at the time. Eventually, he grew disinterested in the Cleveland WNBA franchise, the Rockers, and also he would sell the NBA franchise to dan Gilbert and Company, the owner of the NBA's Cleveland Cavaliers. And so 20 years later or so, Dan Gilbert, who, you know, had first purchased the Cavs, now also is going to be the, you know, the majority owner of the Cleveland WNBA team. Sabrina made the point, like, a lot has just changed in the WNBA from 20 years ago to today, right? Think about just how different the business is more generally, and all the record ratings and merchandise and, you know, corporate partnerships and all the things that have changed that really at its core, whether it is for Detroit and Cleveland or Philadelphia, is what is different. And what is so interesting is, you know, not that many years ago, Kathy Engelbert was talking about how the COVID season, the 2020 bubble season, was this existential moment for the WNBA, right, that they needed to basically play that season or else, like, who knows what would have happened to the league. They said that they couldn't have been out of the conversation for 20 months. And you can actually go back and read. Mike Vorkanov and I reported out a story last fall all about how this capital raise that followed in 2021, it was a $75 million capital raise. Sabrina mentioned it, too. They had all these people buy in. That really helped lay some of the foundation for the business evolutions that have transpired over the last four or so years. Even as many as five years ago, the WNBA business was in a totally different spot. And right now, it is, you know, setting records all the time. And that is really the backdrop for the Expansion that we saw this week.

[Zena Caida]

Sabrina, how is it going to feel for the fans are people, especially if they don't bring back the same names, Will it feel different in terms of the team coming back?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, I think that's a great question for those individual communities. We talked about this a little bit with Portland as well, who all indications are that they are going to bring back the name Portland Fire, which is what they were from 2000, 2003. And there are mixed feelings in the community about that. Right. There's some elements of nostalgia, but also, does this era demand a different conception of what this team is going to be like? Right. And Cleveland still home to the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. Obviously, the Rockers make a lot of sense as a name if they were to bring that back. Detroit is interesting because technically the franchise still exists in just a different form with the Dallas Wings. So, you know, you'll have to explore, like, who owns all of the history of that franchise. Right. Does it all revert back to Detroit? It's a question that NBA fans are also sort of grappling with. If the Seattle SuperSonics have a return. Right. Like, how does Oklahoma.

[Ben Pickman]

Sabrina, where do you fare on that? Where do you fare on that?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think that if you change the name and the city, then you no longer get to attach yourself to the previous existence. Yeah. So, I mean, I think a lot of people are just really happy to be back in the WNBA business. Right. Like, to have a team back that they're so close to other teams is a question in and of itself. Right. Like Detroit, pretty close to Toronto. I don't know why we needed all these teams in the same area, but I think it's. I mean, who am I going to begrudge? Fans who want to have a team back? Right. Like, it's great. The people in Detroit get to watch a basketball team again. And Philadelphia is an entirely new market, one that we've been talking about for a very long time. Part of me is like, why is there this lack of imagination that we have to just try the same things over and over again? That didn't work the first time, but it is different ownership groups. Right. We are in a different space economically than that recession in 2008 that took out a lot of these teams. So I am trying to be more optimistic than that.

[Zena Caida]

Well, listen, let's be optimistic on the other side of this break as we think up some new names for these WNBA teams that are coming on board.

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[Sabrina Merchant]

Your car says A lot about you. So if we asked your car what.

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[Sabrina Merchant]

This has been Car Tracks.

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[Ben Pickman]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

Ad to remind you right now, wherever.

[Zena Caida]

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[Ben Pickman]

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[Zena Caida]

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[Zena Caida]

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[Zena Caida]

But for now, just relax. All right, well, in keeping with the expansion theme, we're gonna do a quick, fun little exercise here. It's gonna be some live brainstorming. We got three new teams, and let's imagine that they get three new names. Let's imagine that the owners of these teams have heard Sabrina say this is a new era. We should have a new concept, a new, you know, let's, let's get our imaginations going and let's go ahead and help them out. Ben and Sabrina, let's start with Cleveland. Okay. Previously the Cleveland Rockers, alluding to the Rock and Roll hall of Fame as Sabrina just mentioned. But let's, let's think of some new stuff. Okay? They the most recent team that they received. You know, baseball, Cleveland Guardians. Got it. Felt. You know, thinks about the bridge statues in Cleveland. Thinking about protective and strong. Okay. Then you've got the Cavaliers. Same vibe. Protective and strong. I like that. What are we thinking for Cleveland? Thinking that they're industrial, that they've got some grit to them. I don't know. What are we thinking here, guys?

[Sabrina Merchant]

This is more esoteric than I ever expected to be in terms of the culture of Cleveland.

[Zena Caida]

But I mean, trying to get the vibe into the.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So if you want to, like, I guess, mesh nostalgia with, you know, looking forward, if you still have the Rock and Roll hall of fame. This is courtesy of our friend Chantelle Jennings, our co worker here. Could you make a play on the wor pick with, like, pick and roll, but, like guitar picks? You know, I don't know what unrivaled trademark situation is, but, like, the Cleveland vinyl also makes a lot of signs in terms of records.

[Zena Caida]

Oh, right, right. I like that. Okay, so I would. I like that, actually. I don't know. Cleveland picks would sound good, though. Is that. What is Chantel saying? The Cleveland picks is that maybe like.

[Sabrina Merchant]

A pick is like a logo, you know, in terms of.

[Zena Caida]

Oh, oh, oh. Got it. Yeah, yeah, got it. Well, well, Cleveland was also apparently the first. People might call it a pick. Like a hair pick, though.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Sure, sure.

[Zena Caida]

Like an afro pick. So I don't know, that might be a little confusing, But I do like Cleveland Vinyl.

[Sabrina Merchant]

They were apparently the first city lit by electricity. So you could go with Cleveland Voltage. Cleveland Current. Current is a name that is occupied by an NWSL team. But I think there's obviously room for. For sharing that, especially because their current is more of a water situation. This is an electric current. But I think.

[Zena Caida]

And we know that there's overlap in different leagues. Yeah, I like that. I was thinking more around, like, the. The industrial vibe of it, and I was like. Like the Cleveland Forge or like the. The. I don't know. Cleveland. The Cleveland. The Cleveland grit. I don't know. Something like that gives that industrial vibe to it. But I really like Cleveland Vinyl, now that I think about it. Maybe just because there's a lot of V's and. And that just. I don't know. That sounds good. Ben, anything to add here?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, feels like they're gonna play off the NBA name some form or fashion. Cavalier is a term from the English Civil War. So maybe they go back into some English Civil War history or also a dog. Right. A dog breed a cab. Right. And so maybe they go in the dog variety.

[Sabrina Merchant]

What were the women in the English Civil War named?

[Ben Pickman]

Honestly, I just. I just remember Cavaliers. I'm forever scarred because when I was in sixth grade, you know, I've long prided myself on knowing mascots and college, like, teams and mascots and just nicknames for teams. And I'll never forget, I was in the sixth grade in a history class, and our teacher was explaining the English Civil War, and she was like, this side was called the same thing as the University of Virginia's nickname. And in that moment, I blanked. I blanked. And you can see, you know, all these years later, it eats at Me, I remember the pain from that story. So had she said NBA nickname, I would have gotten it in a second. I should have gotten it back then. But I'll never forget the Cavaliers in the English Civil War.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, let's keep going on this. I like this. I like this a lot. I like that. We're going from very different vibes, okay? We're going music. We're going the feel of the city. We're going history here. We could call them the Cleveland Pioneers. Could we?

[Ben Pickman]

It's not bad. It's not bad.

[Zena Caida]

It's not bad, though. It's not bad. Okay, let's keep it going. Let's keep it going. Let's think about Detroit, which I feel like could give the same vibe that I'm talking about then around Cleveland.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, Detroit, it's gotta be cars or Motown. Right?

[Zena Caida]

Right. Right. Mm. Cars.

[Sabrina Merchant]

What about the Detroit Henry Freeze?

[Zena Caida]

That would be hilarious. And everyone has to show up in wigs that are perfectly bouffant and styled just like the Supremes. What? Oh, that would be phenomenal. And they would have to. I mean, they'd have to steal it from the Minnesota Links, but they would have to do some sort of the Electric Slide after every game as well. Get some sort of. You know, just. I'm just imagining the Motown dancers on the background. I like it. I like it a lot. It makes sense why you had the Detroit Shock, right? You think about your car. Duh. That makes sense.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah.

[Zena Caida]

The Pistons shock. Exactly. Thinking about cars, the only thing that's coming to mind. And it's so dumb, but I keep thinking assembly line. Like the Detroit Assembly. So bad. Not good.

[Ben Pickman]

What's Chantel? What do we have from our friend Chantel on this one?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Chantel also has Detroit Catalyst. Detroit Torque.

[Zena Caida]

I like Torque.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah.

[Zena Caida]

Detroit Torque. Okay, could we be obvious and say the Detroit engines. Is that too. Too on the nose?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Then you gotta get Alyssa Thomas on your team.

[Zena Caida]

Right. Facts. That would be good. That would be good.

[Ben Pickman]

We should say, too, the Detroit Pistons have an NBA G League affiliate which are known as the Motor City Crews. So, you know, again, history would tell us the car.

[Zena Caida]

The car vibe.

[Ben Pickman]

The car vibe will be applied in this context too.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I really think they should go the Supreme's direction.

[Zena Caida]

Something to pay. Like, you know, Ruby D. Oh, maybe the Detroit Rubies. No, no, I'm thinking too many into.

[Sabrina Merchant]

What is Cleveland G League team.

[Ben Pickman]

They were the Canton Charge, I believe. Right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Charge. So the Electric.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, there you go.

[Ben Pickman]

I told you. I pride myself on knowing nicknames and Mascots.

[Zena Caida]

There you go. There you go. Okay. Yeah. I'm telling you, Detroit and Cleveland have the same kind of vibe here. So if Cleveland goes music, maybe Detroit goes car and industry. And if Detroit goes industry, maybe Cleveland goes music. We'll see. They got to balance it out somehow. I'm sure they're going to be in talks. Let's keep it going in Philadelphia though. Philadelphia has a lot of opportunities here. Obviously everything about Philadelphia is American based. You got the Philadelphia Eagles. You got the 76ers. As in 1776.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Their G League team used to be 87ers because of the Constitution being ratified in 87.

[Zena Caida]

There you go. Wow. There's this element of American history with Philadelphia and it makes sense. I very much remember being tortured in AAU by the Philadelphia Belles, which I think is still an active AAU like, like legendary program.

[Ben Pickman]

Brianna Short played for that team.

[Zena Caida]

There you go. Yeah. Just to give you an example. Yeah. The Philadelphia Bells were always monstrous. And maybe, you know, you can't take that also because it was very like, I don't know, a little too girly of a name. But I like the idea of like the Philadelphia Liberty going off of the Liberty Bell. The Philadelphia Freedom.

[Ben Pickman]

You really liked Philadelphia Liberty, Xena, can I stop you there?

[Zena Caida]

Oh, shoot. I don't know what I'm thinking about. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Not the Philadelphia Liberty, but like thinking about like in that realm. The Philadelphia Freedom. The Philadelphia something in that realm. Not Philadelphia like Constitution, but like, you.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Know what I mean? I mean, it's a shame that like the 19th Amendment, which gave women the right to vote is like in 1920, because you don't have a very good year with that. Like the 20 years. Doesn't. Doesn't have a ring to it.

[Ben Pickman]

But. But you could say, Sabrina, we're on the same page here. You could say like, like 17ers, right? Like that's kind of when the movement really popped up. And I want to say it was in 19, when the. I was just doing the research pre show on this. Like when the amendment. The 19th amendment got passed was 1919. So 19ers isn't. It's not great, but feels like something in that vein. Could be. Could be.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. I just have to do it. The suffragettes. Yeah, that's. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the direction it went.

[Zena Caida]

That would be. No. I would suffer if they recall the Philadelphia suffragettes. Nope. And by the way, guys, suffer has nothing to do with the word suffragettes. When I was first Learning English and learning that word. I was like, that makes no sense. That suffragettes has something to do with voting and not suffering. Okay. I feel like we've suffered enough through this exercise. I don't know if we actually came up with any, but we would love to hear Yalls thoughts on these names. Should they go back? Should Cleveland and Detroit go back? I think Detroit folks would say, absolutely. Bring back the shot. I don't know if Cleveland would feel the same way about the rockers, but let us know what you think. Should they go back? Should they come up with something new? And what should Philly do? Should they also find a bird that represents America? Because there's not anything like the eagle. But I feel like we're missing an opportunity in that category there. I don't know much about birds, but anywho. All right, guys, let's close this out. Don't forget, there is the Commissioner's cup final tonight. Indiana Fever are gonna face off against the Minnesota Lynx. Catch it all on Amazon prime starting at 8pm Eastern. Before we close out, we would be remiss to not say congratulations to Candace Parker, recently a guest on our show, but just got her jersey retired second time now with the Los Angeles Sparks and unbelievable, unbelievable legacy being honored. An icon in the game that really changed the game, if you want to know how she did. So go listen to our power forward conversation because quite literally, she is the impetus of that conversation for sure. So that is it for today. We'll see you guys here back on Friday, where I can pretty much guarantee that we'll have a lot to talk about. And as always, before we go, use that thumb, use that index finger. Y' all, like, subscribe, share, all of the above and also reach out to us. Let us know what you think about these names. Let us know what you think about these new teams. Is this gonna fit the schedule? I wanna know what you guys think about this. Um, especially as the fans, some of you that are just getting into it, you're probably like, yay. Some of you that have been here for a while, you're like, oh, God. Don't know what to expect. Definitely check it. Check it out and tell us what you think. And wherever you're listening, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, subscribe, follow all the above and head over to our partner, Yahoo. Sports Hub. I always mess that up. The yahoo. Sports hub. Sports.yahoo.com womens-sports on behalf of the athletic, Ben, Sabrina and those terrible names we just came up with. I'm Zena Keda. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of Women's basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations.

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