← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:00]
Zena Kada
Tell me if I'm alone here. No off season listeners, but shopping used.
- [00:03]
To feel more fun before all the.
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Algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes. But I have a confession. I found that fun feeling again on ebay. It's not mindless scrolling, it is a fashion pursuit. And when you score that rare Adidas Collab or the Dior saddlebag you've been manifesting, it's a rush. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by the ebay Authenticity guarantee.
- [00:26]
Ebay Things people Love AI companies have.
- [00:31]
Stripe Representative
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- [00:56]
Sabrina Merchant
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Ulta Beauty Representative
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- [01:21]
Sabrina Merchant
Shop the sale@pura.com for a limited time only.
- [01:44]
Zena Kada
What up everyone and welcome to no Off Season presented by ebay. I'm Zena Kada.
- [01:48]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [01:50]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [01:52]
Zena Kada
And today on the show we got a winner. A draft lottery winner. That is the first round draft order for the 2026 WBA draft became official last night. We're breaking down the big winners and unveiling our own mock draft. Who might go number one? Who makes or doesn't make the top five? We know it's getting a little little tight in that race so get ready to have some fun with us. But first, big news dropped last Friday. My side of the country, my side of the world around the warriors is joining the WNBA world. Yes, the New York Liberty announced their new head coach, Chris DiMarco who's been an assistant with the Golden State Warriors. Now Ben, I probably can break this higher down from the coach's side. I've seen Chris DiMarco come up through the ranks of the Golden State Warriors. He is a players coach through and through, really great defensively and I've seen Chris also, you know, be the Bahamas national team coach and lead them pretty well. I mean they were competitive. I'm curious, what is it from the team side about, you know, Chris's resume that aligned with what they want to do, what Liberty GM Jonathan Kolb was looking for in his next head coach?
- [03:03]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think we're still waiting concrete answers to that question. We haven't heard from Jonathan Kolb or anyone at the team on the record discussing the decision to hire Krista Marker from the outset of this search. However, you know, they used words like someone who is evolved or adapting with the times. Innovative were some of the buzzwords that Jonathan called throughout after dismissing Sandy Brandella. And we reported back when they made their initial decision to part ways with San Handy and throughout the process that, you know, they very much were clued into coaches with NBA experience. So Will Weaver, a former Brooklyn Nets assistant coach, former head coach of the Long Island Nets in the NBA G League, Christy Tolliver, another coach now with the Phoenix Mercury, but someone else who had experience on multiple NBA staffs, another Toronto Raptors assistant was another candidate for this job towards the end. And Crystal Marco really did come seemingly out of nowhere, at least to our ears. Right. Again, this was a late emerging name to us. I think we started to hear rumblings about a coach, another coach with NBA experience who had won championships at the start of last week. And then we had to do some digging, Sabrina and I, and figure out who this person was. And then a few days later he is the coach we are reporting and others too is getting this job. I think what is so interesting though is Cristo Marco has no head coach experience. He has never coached high level women's basketball before. You mentioned, you know, the experience with Bahamas, that was the men's national team. And yes, coach, yo Ole Miss women's basketball coach was on his staff. But you know, having a top female woman on your staff, very different than coaching women in the wnba. Also, some of the words that you know, Jonathan Culp throughout tend to be a little bit more coded for offensive minds. So interesting to pick a coach with a defensive background though. You have to think that having some experience with Stephen Curry and then looking at Sabrina Ionescu, that probably played a role in visualizing what this team could be going forward.
- [05:01]
Zena Kada
Yeah, it made a lot of sense from the perspective of that offense that the warriors run. Having had the experience he's had watching it on film and then working his way up the ranks to now being a coach and executing that offense with the likes of a Jordan Poole right back when they won the warriors won the 2022 championship. Being a person that Worked with the bigs in that mix of how to protect and how to scre and how to set up a player like Stephen Curry. Very similar to Sabrina Unescu. Of course, of the off ball movement, it makes sense that you would want someone that knows how to communicate that and knows how to execute that out on the floor. But yeah, there's a lot of questions and we haven't had the introductory press conference just yet to be able to get Jonathan Kolb's thoughts on it. And also Even what Chris DeMarco wants to do with this team because this is going to be a brand new landscape for him. Sabrina, when you looked at this hiring and you know, I know this was also something that you and Ben were working on in the background, but when you look at this hiring, like, like what do you think is the biggest thing that New York needs to do with Chris DiMarco in general to ensure that this is a good hiring for them?
- [06:05]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think a lot of it's going to come down to who his assistants are. You know, you saw when Nate Tibbets made the jump from the NBA being an assistant to coming to the WNBA as a head coach for the first time coaching high level women's basketball. His first hire was Christie Toliver, you know, a former WNBA player who had been an assistant coach on those NBA staffs. So they spoke some of the same language, but she also had the w credibility to bring onto that staff. And you talk to people around Phoenix and they are just effusive in what Christie means to their program and what she's been able to do to help Nate make the transition and to help that team have success. So I think having a former player, probably in an assistant coaching role, maybe as a lead assistant, maybe just on the staff, makes a lot of sense for Chris DiMarco. I just think it can't be overstated that this is a team in the Liberty that is trying to compete for a title right now. Right. We heard, like Ben mentioned, Sabrina is pretty active in the hiring process. Her relationship with Stephen Curry makes sense why she would trust somebody from the warriors to come over to, you know, have as the coach of New York Liberty. But this is a coach who has never coached an NBA team. Right. Like never coached a WNBA team. Admittedly, coaching an international national team is like, it's just different than coaching a team over the course of a regular season. And like, this is not a job that you can just ease into. Right. They expect to have Brianna Stewart back. They expect to have Sabrina Esco back, they expect to have a team that is trying to win a title, and that's just a very, very hard thing to do in your first season. Like, we've seen Becky Hammond and Sandy Rondella do it, and that's about it.
- [07:23]
Zena Kada
And they both played in the league.
- [07:24]
Sabrina Merchant
Exactly. And they both played in the wnba, which makes it different. So I'm just interested in who's going to be around Cristimargo, you know, helping him as they make this transition, you know, from the Golden State warriors to New York Liberty, how long he's going to be with the warriors before he actually makes the move. Like, we're sort of seeing this with the Portland Fire, right? Like, how long Alex Sarama takes before leaving Cleveland to come to Portland. There's just a lot of things that are still up in the air. I mean, I don't think the Liberty have even announced the head coaching hire yet. So, like, a lot still going on. But to me, it's like, who fills out the staff? That's the most interesting.
- [07:51]
Zena Kada
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, too.
- [07:52]
Ben Pickman
I was talking to a coach over the weekend about their transition over the last five years into the wnba, and one of the things they really talked about was like, you first want to get to know all these players and you spend a lot of time getting to know them as people. And that might be, you know, the first, like, part of his transition that is so, so important. And that's really crucial. But, like, it takes time to then understand the actual league, the rhythm of the wnba, the pract schedule, training camp, how to communicate with these players differently than players at your last job. And so there is definitely, you know, an adjustment period, a growing period that coaches. And we've seen it repeatedly, like, that needs to happen. And as Sabrina, I think, points out, like, there's not a lot of Runway here. And so that's what's so fascinating to me is, again, like, this is someone without head coach experience and without experience in the W. So those are two big things that you are learning on the fly, not just one. You know, I think people are certainly intrigued when talking to people around the league about this hire. But, yeah, it is a little bit of a wait and see, too.
- [09:01]
Zena Kada
Sure. Did Nate Tibbets have head coaching experience? I can't recall.
- [09:05]
Sabrina Merchant
He was a head coach. In the G League.
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Zena Kada
In the G League. Okay, got you. Gotcha.
- [09:08]
Sabrina Merchant
Gotcha.
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Zena Kada
Yeah. I feel like I remember vividly how we all felt about Nate Tibbets getting hired. And a lot of the Question marks around what that looked like. And look at what's happened. Not only just the success of the team in Phoenix, but particularly the trust that you see the players have with him as a coach. And so that's why I'm reserving my thoughts there. I also don't want to. I am biased. I like Chris. I know Chris. He's a good dude. He's well liked in the warriors organization. But that's not going to be enough to translate into being a great head coach. We have question marks. They are outstanding. So we'll reserve judgment until we see more or hear more, at least from them.
- [09:45]
Sabrina Merchant
Just one last thing about the Liberty job. I think it's interesting that Chris has been with the warriors since 2012. Right. It's not like somebody who's been hopping around trying to find a new job. He's been in the same organization for 13 years. So to want to take this job in New York, I think is just another indicator of, like, the prestige of WNBA jobs at this point and, like, what he sees as the potential for the Liberty. So I think that's very exciting, especially coming from an organization that is so successful. Right. It's not like he's just been, you know, toiling away in some random NBA place. Like he's won four titles in Golden State. Right?
- [10:14]
Zena Kada
Right.
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Sabrina Merchant
So I think it's cool that somebody of his pedigree, like, even if he doesn't have head coaching experience coming from the warriors, having worked with Steve Kerr, that he wants this job, that he sees the potential of this job in this league. But I also think that it's fair to have reservations about what he's capable of, considering just where he's been.
- [10:29]
Zena Kada
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, with Cris DiMarco's hiring, it's official, all the head coaches roles in the WNBA are now filled. And we would be remiss not to call out the obvious. There are no longer any black female head coaches in the wnba. Now, I know some of you guys have reached out to me and, you know, want this to be immediately discriminatory, want this to be called out as racist. It would be irresponsible for us to do that because we don't have any evidence to support that. But that does not mean that we can't call out the pattern, that we cannot make this observation. I mean, yes, we've seen diversity in these hiring practices. We just had our first Indian American coach announced for this next season. And then we had our last season with the Valkyries, our first Japanese American coach. So yes, we're seeing difference of race and gender being represented from a coaching perspective, however, yeah, it's clear black women are not being chosen. So we can't expect any of these teams to just hire someone based off the fact that someone's black and they're a woman. That's not what we want. No one wants that. We want people that are the best qualified person for the job. And we can only assume that that's how these GMs and these teams made their decisions. I make that assumption, and I believe them in that they were doing that. But my question is, and I think it's a lot of people's question, and Ben, I'll look to you because it sometimes feels more rhetorical, like I'm kind of throwing it out to the air as opposed to being able to get true answers on this. Why is it that more black women aren't finding themselves aligned with the team's vision of a future head coach? Is it something on their resume that's missing? Is it something in the interview process that's missing? They're not communicating or explaining how they would set up the identity of a team. I know every single team's needs are unique, and every single team's hiring cycle reflects those unique needs. But it's just worth calling out the pattern that somehow, whatever those unique needs are, black women are not meeting those needs to a standard enough to be hired to be head coaches in a league that's made up predominantly of. Of women who look like them. So I want to ask, have you been able to have these type of conversations? Ask the question whether it's directly or peripherally? Have people giving you thoughts? What's going on in the ether?
- [12:54]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really important conversation to have, and it's one that I know Sabrina and I are continuing to have with people around the league. I mean, I think. I mean, there's multiple things to what you just mapped out. Xena1, the word innovative, for instance. I think unfairly so, but that is a word that I think is stereotypically coded as for, like, a white, you know, analytics offensive guru. Right. And I think that is. It is an unfair characterization of that word. But I think that might be, you know, seemingly is baked into, I think, the perceptions that a lot of people have of, like, what does it mean to be innovative? Again, that's not to say that Brian January or Christy Toliver, among others, or any other coach, like a black woman, can't be an innovative head coach. I'm Absolutely not saying that. Two, I think what's really interesting about this moment in the W in terms, terms of coaching diversity is you compare that very starkly with unrivaled. And these jobs are different, right? You have one is a full season job in a business that is, you know, 30 years old and just sign, you know, a multiple billion dollar television media rights deal. And one is a startup. But in unrivaled, five of the eight head coaches are black women. And one of the things that they have done in that league is be very intentional in their hiring practices. You know, they've provided both in some of those coaches like Noel Quinn and Teresa Weatherspoon have head coach experience. And some, you know, Rena Waccama is the latest, like she has head coaching experience at the Nigerian national team level, but has never been a WNBA head coach. And they're kind of giving her an opportunity, being intentional about providing a qualified coach an opportunity to get reps. And so I think, you know, in talking to some coaches, like, intentionality is really important. And then we are also in this moment where people are seeing the, the Nate Tibbets types or you know, people with NBA experience have immediate success in the wnba and so it's a copycat league. And so in some respects they are copying for that trope or that characteristic more than seeing a former player or former black woman. Because we should say Becky Hammond is a, is a former player, but seeing a black woman who is a head coach have immediate success and take a team to the finals or to a championship. Because, you know, I had someone say, like, if that was going to happen, you know, in the future or when it happens, then we might see a run on former players. Like, who's to say? I don't know if you, Sabrina, agree with that theory, but you know, I think that also is a school of thought in the ether right now.
- [15:22]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm glad you bring up Becky Hammond because I think the former player part of it is an important piece, right? Like we had a similar discussion in the NBA like I think a decade ago about how the number of black head coaches was going down and how the league coaching pool should reflect its player pool, right? Like if the players were predominantly black men, then the coaches should also reflect that. And I think what's interesting about the WNBA is you could argue that like the three most successful coaches in the league are former players, right? Like Becky Hammond, Sandy Brondello, Stephanie White, very highly regarded, right. Like Cheryl Rave is not, you know, the former player. But I think you look at the former player pool. And, like, there's a lot of success in those coaches, right? So you'd think you'd want to keep going back to former players. And yet we look at this hiring cycle, Sandy Brandello, the only former player hired, and she was already coaching, right? Like, the other four hires were not former players. So I think that's, you know, an interesting part of it as well is that, like, why aren't we going back to former players first? And, like, when you get to former players, that should theoretically include some black women as well because they make up so much of the player dynamic of the wnba. You know, you think about, like, how the NFL has its Rooney role, right, that you have to include a person of color in any hiring process. And I think about, like, the coaching searches that you reported on Ben, and like, the information that we got about who was in these discussions. And I'm not sure that there was a person of color in every single hiring process, right? And I think, you know, the Rooney rule obviously has its problems, and it doesn't necessarily lead to an equitable distribution of people of color and people who are not of color. But I do think that, like, there's just not enough black women getting in the rooms to even have these conversations, right? Like, I talked to Dawn Staley when she was in Los Angeles last week about, you know, what she makes of this disparity of black women being such a big part of the player pool and not being in the coaching ranks. And she said, well, like, I'm not sure that they're even getting interviews, right? And once they get interviews, then, like, if they get the job, how long are they even getting to prove themselves, right? Like, not everybody is a Becky Hammond where, you know, within year one that you have an ace in the hole. Like, most times you have to give them a little bit of Runway to figure out if they're going to be a good head coach. And Teresa Weatherspoon got one year, right? Like, we've seen Tanisha Wright got fired after, well, she got three years in Atlanta, but, like, Vicki Johnson got two years in Dallas. And it just takes a little bit longer for people to figure out if they're going to be a good head coach and if, you know, if you have the right person in the job. And I think that level of stability just isn't a guarantee in the WNBA right now. And that's what's interesting to me is, like, not only are the black women not getting the jobs, but when they do get the jobs, there just Isn't the investment and support behind them to actually help them develop into good head coaches?
- [17:50]
Ben Pickman
Well, and then if you are that candidate, you might have to, you might feel a added pressure of that scarcity, right. Or of that instability knowing that, you know, I might be the, the hot assistant coach right now that is getting lots of interviews, even if you get in that room. But if I choose a job and it is my first head coaching job and say in the end I learned very quickly that I clash with upper management or we don't necessarily have the roster I thought, or ownership isn't as invested as I believed. Well, two years go by and that might be your only two years on the job. And then suddenly you go from, you know, this top assistant who everyone is looking at to a retread coach who is unsuccessful. And where does that leave my career? You know, I've definitely had that conversation, you know, with some people who represent coaches as well. Like, you don't want to rush into an opportunity if you're not 100% sure it is the right opportunity. And we are in this moment of instability. It will be very interesting over the next five years or so as more ownership groups invest, as there's more money going to players. If we see more turnover from the executive level and continue to see the same amount of turnover on the coaching level because people just care more about who their coach is, about their results, ownership wise, than they ever have before, that could lead to more turnover and lead to more player former players and more people getting opportunities. But it could also lead to just shorter shelf lives and, you know, people holding off, off on taking potential good opportunities they might have otherwise accepted 10 years ago because, you know, you don't want to be in this job for just two years.
- [19:30]
Zena Kada
All of these are really great points and I'm happy you got Ben specifically that thought of not choosing a job or maybe not going for that job just yet because you don't want to put yourself up for failure and then have the label of that on you. I think about Teresa Weatherspoon often when I think about this notion, particularly of not being successful in Chicago, especially during such a particular year. Right. Angel Reese coming in, Camila Cardoso coming in, and Chicago not finding the success that they were looking for with Teresa Weatherspoon at the helm. How has that labeled her in those rooms? In those conversations for other teams to potentially bring her on in the hiring cycle? There's a, for lack of a better word, a stink that comes associated with failure in the WNBA that isn't quite the same in the NBA, man. The NBA loves to recycle coaches. They love to be like, oh, didn't work out over there. Come over here, bro. We got some different resources, got some different teams, you know, things for you to be able to tap into. It's just a little bit different in the W. And so all of these are really, really, really great points of not only just this. This is not to discount what who's been hired. This is not to discount anyone. This is not to, again, accuse or throw allegations of racism or discriminatory bias. It is to call out the pattern. It is to reflect upon that pattern. And it is to call out these things so that maybe the WNBA can see these things and find a way to ensure that diverse representation when it comes especially to the women that predominately make up this league, are represented more in these head coaching positions. Okay, that all said, congrats to all of the new coaches in their new roles. We are very excited to see what they bring next year. There's a lot of question marks, and that actually has to do with what we're going to talk about later in the show with new talent joining some of these rosters. But before we get there really, really quickly, got to touch on college, obviously. Cause that's what's going on right now. And we usually have a Sabrina scale. Today we're coming up with something new because Ben replaced Sabrina this past week as Sabrina was working on her mock draft late Sunday night. Ben, the Sabrina scale. So I'm going to call it the Ben balance. Okay. I just came up with that off the top of my head. Hope it's good. Ben's balance. Top six teams holding steady from last week. UConn, UCLA, South Carolina, Texas, LSU, and Michigan. Now, remember, last week was Sabrina's scale. This week is Ben's balance. But you still had these teams in your top six, and you actually were at a thrilling game between UConn and Michigan. Now, UConn eeked it out, but that fourth quarter, baby, it was fun. It looked like March out there. Tell me why you've got Michigan in the mix in the top six for you, Ben.
- [22:21]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think we could rename this Ben's best, too, because this was the best game of the college basketball season so far, I would argue. I think it's been the best college basketball game I've been to, I guess in a while. I guess it's been a while since the tournament, though.
- [22:34]
Sabrina Merchant
This was a better game than the tournament games, man.
- [22:36]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. Probably it felt like a tournament game. And that was really one of the. The real takeaways that I think both coaches acknowledged that for an early November game or mid November game, it both had the energy of the crowd and also the high quality shot making, especially in the fourth quarter of an NCAA tournament game. I mean, seeing Silas Ward of Michigan seeing Az Fudd go shop for shot, you know, in the fourth quarter, especially easy hitting, what, three straight threes on, you know, consecutive possessions midway through the quarter. And UConn suddenly looking like they're going to, you know, end up winning by 12 despite the push from Michigan. And then seeing swords down the stretch in the final minute hitting three threes, some from NBA range of her own, like, super, super impressive UConn. We've talked a lot about them. We will continue to talk a lot about them. For me, I think this was so telling about where Michigan is at right now, because they are still one of the youngest teams in the country. The young, one of the best young teams in the country. And they were rattled in the first 10 minutes of this game. I mean, they were down 22 to 5. They looked unsettled, they looked rushed. There was a possession which, you know, one of their players, one of their guards threw up a shot with five seconds to go on the shot clock. Because she, I think very audibly heard the crowd being like, three, two, one, when there was actually like, you know, six, five, four seconds on the clock. And that's the kind of move that like a young player in a new environment does, right? Not an experienced player. And then we saw them settle down. And key to them settling down too, was playing two, three zone. And Kim Barnes Rico, post game, she said like, no, we didn't intend to play as much two, three zone. We were maybe going to use it just as a change up. But they really played zone from the second quarter through the fourth quarter, really consistently every possession. In the second half, 26 of 32 possessions, according to Synergy. They got stops on when they were playing zone. I mean, that's remarkable for a zone that they had not dusted off all year without any full court pressure. They slowed against Yukon. Against Yukon, they slowed the pace down. They communicated, and then their offense got hot on the other end. They played the game at their pace. I thought that was so impressive, so telling. And they then also have the offensive firepower on the other end to go shot for shot with the Huskies.
- [24:43]
Zena Kada
Yeah. The final score was 72, 69. I don't know if you guys just heard Ben the game started 22 to 5. Okay, so this is, I mean, quite nice.
- [24:52]
Ben Pickman
I saw it. Tina from Michigan. I was there, Trust me, I saw it. I was like. I was like, should I get the engine of my car going right now?
- [24:58]
Sabrina Merchant
Glad I stayed.
- [25:00]
Zena Kada
The keys were jangling all around the arena, but yes, no Michigan. UConn put on a show for us. We appreciate these early hoops showdowns. You know, it gets us going, reminds us that we're right around the corner from conference play. But then what happens after conference play, of course, March Madness. Like just the ultimate showdowns of competition. And we just saw a glimpse of that. And UConn, you know, they like to be in the mix of these type of games early on in the season. So shout out to them for putting. Giving us that gift early on. Okay. Before we get into the mock draft, which AZ Fudd would probably be a conversation in that, right? Ben, any last thoughts on this, on this UConn Michigan game?
- [25:36]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, a few little moments behind the scenes. Wanted to shout out as well. Number one, appreciate there was a fan who took a selfie with me on Deadline while writing on Deadline. So appreciate listeners of this podcast continuing to come up to us at games. The Crispy Cream got to always shout out the Crispy Keem. Please sponsor this podcast. We love you in the Mohegan Sun Casino. But really the story I wanted to tell was one about student journalism because there was a really touching moment that happened after the post game had concluded where or at the end of post game where Gino Oriema noticed that there were some reporters from the Michigan Daily sitting at the press conference asking questions to him. And he kind of made a classic Gino comment to them, being like, so who's your football team play again? This is during the press conference tomorrow. And they said Maryland. And he was basically like, oh, you guys are going to beat the brakes off of them. And the reporter was like, you know, that's above my pay grade. And Gino made a comment. Well, you know, you're just saying that because your ad, Ward Manual of Michigan was in the back of the press conference. So he's saying like, oh, you want to be cautious because your ad is in the back. And so after the press conference ended, I did see Ward Manual go up to, I think it was four reporters, student reporters from, I assume, the Michigan Daily or other Michigan student outlets. And he introduced himself to all of them. He thanked them for their time and their coverage and their investment for coming to Uncasville, Connecticut. Not exactly the most Convenient, easiest place to get to. And I saw like they were clearly like, you know, touched by the interaction. And I thought it was a very personal interaction between in ad and student media. And then Gino actually took out his phone and took a photo of the four student reporters. And I don't know who exactly he was sending it to, but I think he also was impressed when you talk about coverage investment, that four students had made the trip to Uncasville to cover women's basketball game on a Friday night. So shout out to those people from the Michigan Daily and student journalists who are covering teams around the country. I thought that was a, a pretty nice moment to cap off a really good game.
- [27:40]
Zena Kada
Yeah, that's an awesome story. I love that. And that's probably, that's one of those like career defining moments. Like those moments that affirm that you are in the right spot, the right time. You're doing what you're supposed to do. So yes, absolutely. Thanks for sharing that. That was dope. All right, guys, we're going to turn our attention to the WNBA draft with our mock draft. Who's going number one, which players might surprise us and whose stock is rising or falling? We're going to get into all of it.
- [28:09]
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- [29:37]
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- [30:11]
Zena Kada
Now over the weekend. The lottery took place Sunday night and the top five picks are officially going to number one, the Dallas Wings. But two, the Minnesota Lynx by way of Chicago, Seattle Storm at number three, Washington Mystics have number four and the Chicago sky have number five. Now before we get into who we think these teams will pick or should pick, we want to break down how this system works for you all because it's actually pretty interesting and what it's like actually way more strategic than just picking the worst team from last year. There's some levels to this. Okay, so Sabrina, walk us through. How does the lottery work and how does the league actually decide the odds break it down for us.
- [30:52]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So the five teams that enter the lottery, and it was five this year because there were 13 teams in the WNBA last year that was a little different, were the ones who didn't make the playoffs in 2025. And then their lottery odds are determined by their combined two year record from 2024 and 2025. Now you'll notice a lot of the teams in the lottery didn't actually missed the playoffs, but they have the picks of teams who did miss the playoffs.
- [31:13]
Zena Kada
Right.
- [31:14]
Sabrina Merchant
So Minnesota had the Chicago Skies pick, Seattle had the Los Angeles Sparks pick, and then Chicago ended up back in the lottery because they had Connecticut's pick. But if you notice during the WNBA draft, like there's a lot of times where you have consecutive number one picks and that's part of the two year record thing. Right. Because if you have a really bad record one year, that still counts towards your lottery odds the next year. Right. So if you're Indiana in 2023, for example, you had a terrible record in 22 and 23, that 23 records. You know, it still counts when you're picking the 2024 lottery. Right. So that's why, you know, we've seen Dallas have back to back picks in 25 and 26. Indiana was 23 and 24. New York Liberty actually won back to back picks in 2020 and 2021 though they traded their pick in 21, the Aces had back to back picks in 17, 18 and 19. The Seattle Storm before that, and 15 and 16. So if you're surprised that the Dallas Wings won the number one pick, you shouldn't be is basically what I'm trying to say. Like it's very common. That team wins the number one selection in back to back seasons.
- [32:04]
Zena Kada
Okay, that makes sense. And again, the lottery is just for those top five picks. That's why, you know, we've only mentioned five of the full 13. Okay, so after those five picks are set, the rest of the draft is more straightforward. Right.
- [32:19]
Sabrina Merchant
After the top five picks, we actually don't know the rest of the draft order. Because the next two picks will be made by Portland and Toronto. And because the expansion draft also includes Portland and Toronto, and we don't know what order they will be picking in the expansion draft, we also don't know what order they'll be picking in the WNBA draft. So if you noticed on the draft lottery presentation, they had Portland and Toronto's logos both showing up for number six and number seven. So that will be decided, I think much closer to the April date. But those two teams will be 6 and 7, and then 8 to 15 is just reverse order of the standings from the WNBA last year.
- [32:50]
Zena Kada
Okay, so I saw that Toronto and Portland have to do a coin flip closer to that. Is there any validity to that?
- [32:57]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, I don't actually know how it's going to be decided. The thing is, the expansion draft is collectively bargained, right? So once that gets assigned in the cba, presumably one of the teams will pick first in the expansion draft, and then the other team gets to pick first in the WNBA draft.
- [33:10]
Zena Kada
Ooh, fascinating. Okay, got it, got it. This is good. I'm happy you broke it down for us. Now we gotta think about this actual draft, y'. All. This is like one of the first years that it doesn't feel as clear cut as to who's gonna go number one. I mean, Aaliyah, Boston back in 2023. Duh. Caitlin Clark in 2024. Obvious. At Paige Becker's in 2025. I mean, if you didn't know, you were living under a rock. But this year it's a little more murky. Okay, so Sabrina, take us through your top five picks and how you broke things down on your mock draft.
- [33:46]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, you know, I. I did this over the weekend and I'm not even sure that I still agree with the order. Like when I. When I made my college big board during the off Season, my number one college player was Flaje Johnson and I didn't even have her until number five on this current lottery. So things could change. But currently what I have is Dallas taking awa fam 19 year old center out of Spain. Minnesota Lynx at number two, taking Olivia Miles. Seattle Storm taking Az Fudd at number three. Washington Mystics taking Lauren Betts at number four. And then as I mentioned, flage going to the Chicago sky at number five.
- [34:17]
Ben Pickman
You can hear the hesitance in her voice. Ina, you can just hear the uncommitted.
- [34:21]
Sabrina Merchant
It's really not scary.
- [34:22]
Ben Pickman
It's Rina's voice.
- [34:24]
Zena Kada
Yeah, I think I'm pretty clear on number one.
- [34:26]
Sabrina Merchant
But beyond that, anything can happen.
- [34:29]
Zena Kada
Okay, wait, so Ben, I'm guessing you've.
- [34:31]
Done your top five as well?
- [34:33]
Ben Pickman
No.
- [34:34]
Zena Kada
How aligned are. Oh, you haven't? Okay, okay, okay. But based on what Sabrina just said, how aligned are you with the way she broke things down?
- [34:41]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I am aligned with the core group of five players and I am aligned with the hesitancy that Sabrina feels about who is going to go where because I think that is really where a lot of people are at in the process right now. I mean, Kurt Miller, after winning the lottery, the word that he continued to use over and over as it related to this selection was optionality. There was a lot of optionality as to who they might take and how this process also might proceed. Right. I think a big thing this year and Kurt made light of this.
- [35:11]
Zena Kada
That is a big. That's a big cop out word. But yeah, well, it could be.
- [35:16]
Sabrina Merchant
So when did we just stop just saying options? There are a lot of options.
- [35:19]
Ben Pickman
That's a fair point. But. But what I think there is certainly truth to is there is a lot that will could. I won't say could will. In a normal year it might will, but this year could in the CBA agreement. We'll see when we get resolution there. Like there's a lot that is going to happen, right. In terms of expansion, draft and in terms of free agency with, you know, almost every veteran player in the league being a free agent, that rosters are going to look very, very different whenever this WNBA draft is held, and it is currently held scheduled for mid April then they do right now. And so I'm at least allowing Kurt Miller, you want to call it a cop out to say there's a lot of options. I'm at least allowing it in the record on November 24th as we tape this Cena. Because look, the Dallas Wings roster could look Very different by mid February than it does right now. Say they look at free agency and they target bigs, right. We know Dallas had one of the worst front courts in the league this past season. Say they go out and they're able to, you know, steal a Bree Jones or, you know, sign Neko Gum. Again, just throwing out like total conjecture names. Well, then they probably don't need or they might not target a AWA fam or a Lauren bets with the first overall pick. But if they strike out on Biggs.
- [36:36]
Sabrina Merchant
Right.
- [36:36]
Ben Pickman
If they strike out. Right, exactly. Then. Then it becomes a little more clear. But if you say strike out on Biggs and you're able to sign, you know, sharp shooting wings, and we know the Dallas Wings also need some shooting, then maybe Az Fudd becomes a little less appealing as a prospect to bring into the fold and you go for, you know, one of these versatile bigs.
- [36:52]
Sabrina Merchant
See, this is where I disagree with Ben. Just from a draft philosophy perspective, if you have the number one pick, that means you've been pretty bad the last two years. I don't think you should be focusing your draft decision on who you sign in free agency. I think you should just focus on who you think is going to be the next best player over the next, you know, five years or life of their career. Right. If you're able to sign a great center in free agency, congratulations. I still think I will of Ham is the best player in this draft class and you're going to want her on your team, whether that's now when she's 19, whether that's in a couple of years when she decides to come over. I don't think that the current roster construction should meaningfully affect how you approach this draft. If you're in the lottery. I really think it's a best player available situation that high in the draft process because you look at all the best teams in wnba, they were built through the draft, right? You're going to have this player on your team, presumably under team control for a very long time or at least get assets out of this pick. So I think you need to maximize that and not just focus on who fits your roster best. Right now, I think if you're in the lottery, like, it almost like ignore the fact who you have on your team, like, unless it's like a Paige Beckers, obviously, like you don't need to draft somebody who plays the same position as Paige. But best thing about Paige is she plays every position, right, Other than like the five, basically. So you can draft anybody to play next to her. So that's. I don't think it necessarily needs to depend on free agency.
- [38:02]
Zena Kada
Yeah, the only way that that mentality would not be the case is if somehow the championship winning team got the number one pick. Like, obvious. But that is not. That's not going to happen.
- [38:12]
Sabrina Merchant
You're not drafting over Asia Wilson.
- [38:13]
Zena Kada
Yeah, exactly. You're not drafted over Asia Wilson. You're not drafting to replace the folks that got you to where you're at. So it's like, yeah, I'm ignoring that roster because regardless of whoever I pick at number one, if I pick the best player, they will find a way to fit with whatever's going on, or we will find a way to fit around that person, or we can use that person to go get what we really want out in the market because they're going to have value. Everyone's going to want them if they're the best player. So I'm with that perspective, but like, okay, so I'm a fam. I love that more people are starting to learn about who she is and what she does and what she brings. There is something to be said about Europe and them making these bigs that can do it all. It's kind of crazy. We saw Dominique Malanga out of France last year a la fam, this year out of Spain. Ben, you've been on this AWA fam train for a minute. Okay, tell us a little bit more about her.
- [39:05]
Ben Pickman
Really? I was on the Malanga train earlier. If I can toot my own horn here, Zena.
- [39:08]
Zena Kada
Fair, fair, fair, fair, fair.
- [39:09]
Sabrina Merchant
Ben was also on the use oshite train for a very long time. Like, I have a wiki page bookmarked from like 2023 when Ben talked about.
- [39:17]
Ben Pickman
And I get a lot wrong. So don't. You're on the international.
- [39:20]
Zena Kada
You're on the international train really well. So, yeah, break it down for us. Like, what is it that you see about all that you like?
- [39:25]
Ben Pickman
The one thing that sticks out to me or the thing that sticks out first and foremost is her footwork. And it is how when she sets, screens, she rolls to the basket with like a physicality and a presence and just a fluidity in how she moves, like around the court. You see the, the size, you can see the athleticism. And then you see this, like, this really fluid athlete who to me has, you know, developing touch, but like clearly has the physical, you know, athleticism to develop into a really high level basketball player who is able to, despite some of her skill limitations, now find ways to be successful against professional athletes in your elite competition. That despite maybe not being a great shooter, despite like again like still needing to work on a little bit of a post game or her feel around the basket like all young players do, she's found ways to be successful in high level competitions both at the youth level and right now. What we're seeing in the European in your elite competition. And to me that combined with her athleticism shows that she's poised to have a really high ceiling and can really develop into a high quality player.
- [40:39]
Zena Kada
Sabrina, I know that you chose AFM because you think she's the best player in the league, period. So she was going to go to Dallas regardless for you, but how could she fit into Dallas knowing that that's where you would have her go?
- [40:53]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I think the word that Ben said about about a la fam that sticks out most to me is just fluidity. I think she's so fluid the way she moves off of roles, the way she mirrors defensively, the way she like can one touch pass when she reads things in the half court. She's just so smooth to me and I think about Paige with a smooth do it all big and it's like. Well, I think that that sounds pretty good to me. Right, sorry.
- [41:14]
Ben Pickman
Strong for a little while.
- [41:15]
Zena Kada
It's pretty fun. That's a really great point. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
- [41:19]
Sabrina Merchant
No, no. I think AWA fam can just seeming. Honestly, any player could seamlessly fit next to Paige Becker's, but A la fam is pretty much the ideal complement of what you'd want in terms of her size, her defensive capability and how that would work next to Paige Beckers for the long term.
- [41:34]
Ben Pickman
We already know too that Kurt Miller has had his eye on AWA fam because Miller and some other members of the Dallas Wings front office among the places they went on a multi week European trip where they saw both some of their current players and seemingly also did some scouting was to Valencia where they saw a Wal Pham in action firsthand. Don't know exactly what Kurt thought of watching her play, but judging by his reaction to winning the lottery, he certainly was thrilled. I don't know if anyone else. Did you guys see this video of Kurt just jumping up and down screaming?
- [42:12]
Zena Kada
I thought it was a repeat of the page call, but no, it was. It was a completely different year.
- [42:16]
Ben Pickman
The difference was also that there was a Christmas tree up already in the video that was posted this week. Are you guys a hang your Christmas tree, put it up before Thanksgiving people.
- [42:26]
Zena Kada
Or I'm After Thanksgiving, I'm posting we're.
- [42:28]
Sabrina Merchant
A month out from Christmas. I think it's fine.
- [42:29]
Zena Kada
Yeah, I mean, I'm not judging him by any means, but I, I'm happy you, you, you broke it down that this way. A lot of folks would have looked at if Dallas Wings if they got the number one pick, Lauren Betts. Makes a lot of sense, right? Some of that is an established big. When you think about the front court woes that Dallas had particularly last year, it's like, oh, a big that has good touch around the basket, that has those post moves that can set huge screens. Um, and we've seen Lauren Ben step out once in a while, but still being able to finish around the basket is going to be huge. But that's what I think about with a la fam with Sabrina, you're talking about you've got a guard in Paige that can run and wants to run and wants to play in that open court. How beautiful would it be to have in the half court or in the open court another big that runs with her that can do a lot of the things that she's talking about that can have that fluidity in transition to come off a screen to pick and pop, to roll. And it's not just having to play, you know, with their back to the basket or within that elbow position. Like there's a lot more I think that could happen with that pairing than a Lauren Butts and a Paige Beckers. But as you mentioned, Paige is Paige PB5 can play with anybody. And whoever you bring in that number one spot, they'll be fine. But I think that ala fam Paige duo would be cool. Great.
- [43:47]
Ben Pickman
You bring up Lauren Betts and I think we should spend some time talking about her and we should go back to AZ and how she factors into the Dallas conversation. But since you brought up Betts as a comparison point, I, I want to spend a minute there because to me she is a super fascinating prospect with how the lottery shook out here because Sabrina's talking about kind of ignoring, you know, the importance of your current roster as it relates to the number one pick. But when you think about Lauren Betts and where she might fit in this lottery, she might be an elite prospect. Rule out the possibility of her sliding to 6, 7. 6, 7. Should we all do it? Should we do it? 6, 7. Xena Sabrina.
- [44:23]
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No.
- [44:24]
Ben Pickman
They also did that at the Mohegan Sun. They did that at the Mohegan sun at the UConn Michigan game. Six, seven. Ken.
- [44:31]
Zena Kada
I love it. Nope. I love It, I think it's cool, the fact that these kids are doing this very harmless thing. I'd prefer that to what we were doing back in the day. Sabrina, you remember Stone Cold Steve Austin. Those, those gestures were awful. Okay, so go ahead to the kids. Sorry.
- [44:47]
Ben Pickman
There's a chance that she slides because if you start to look positionally and again, we don't know how these rosters are going to shake out. The Minnesota Links, like they have Nafisa Collier, they have Atlanta Smith, right, kind of as their, their front court. And Smith, a co defensive player of the year, one of the best. You know, still young centers in the sport. Does adding Lauren Betts really make a ton of sense in that position? Or when you look at court of the Minnesota Links, that's where you have a Courtney Williams, you have Natisha Heideman, you have Kayla McBride. Those are all older players. Should they look for young guards? If you keep going the Seattle Storm. Well, they have Damalonga, they have Neca Guma. We'll see what happens there. And they have Essie Magma Gordon. Does it really make sense? Again, we'll see how these rosters shake out if they have two of those three players. To add Lauren Betts to the mix. Are you really giving her the best chance to grow Washington? We keep going. They have Shakira Austin right now. They have Kiki Iria Fenn. Are you giving Lauren Betts the best opportunity to grow there Chicago? I think this makes absolutely no sense with the current construction of their roster. Having Angel Reese and Camila Cardozo, it's not a reflection of Lauren Betts as a prospect. But what it does show is a 6, 7 center who right now can't stretch the floor from the perimeter. Might be a little bit limited or limiting for some of these teams. And so I do wonder if she slides as a result. I mean, Sabrina has her mock to Washington and I think of the five teams that I just rattled off, that makes the most sense to me. I like that choice. Sabrina of the five, but it's not exactly a clean fit. I think in, in any of those situations.
- [46:21]
Zena Kada
It's a really, really great point. And when I saw that Sabrina had Lauren at, you know, Washington, I was like, okay, well one bat's going to ask. Kiki, you're four, right? Like we know that you got that leg sleeve looking like Asia Wilson. You are Asia Wilson. Now the expectation is for you to be able to step out a little bit more and do more around the perimeter, allowing Lauren to move inside. But we saw that pairing when Stephanie Dolson would be out there with Kiki Irafen last year. But it is going to be a little bit crowded because you've got the Shakira Austin aspect. But I was curious, Sabrina, if you thought about the fact that, you know, Shakira did kind of allude to the fact that she might want to look for a new place that could allow an opening for Lauren Betts to be able to fit in there.
- [47:07]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, the Shakira Austin muted enthusiasm during exit interviews was definitely something that factored into my decision making process here. And I should point out that just drafting best player doesn't always work out because you think about the Washington Mystics who drafted Kiki Iriafen over Aaliyah Edwards last year and then realized, oh crap, we don't have a place for Aaliyah Edwards on a roster anymore and I would argue kind of traded her below her value during the course of the regular season. Right. So it is a tricky dynamic. Right. Like you think about Chicago, could they draft Lauren Betts when they already have Camila Cardoso and Angel Reese? I don't know. Like at least with Seattle situation, Neca and Ezzy aren't currently under contract. Right. So it allows you to pursue a different path forward. But Lauren Betts to me is like really the, the trickiest prospect to try to fit. Because while I think she you have a case that she's the best college player of any of these players who are going to enter the draft in 2026, that doesn't necessarily mean that her skill set seamlessly translates to the WNBA or that she's the easiest player to fit next to because she is so specific in what she does.
- [48:05]
Zena Kada
That's true. Oof, this is tough. This is very, very tough. And Ben, I'm very, I'm happy you brought that up for our listeners. If someone drops that isn't in that number one pick, anyone pretty much outside of that number one pick. If anyone drops, it's probably or if they're moved. If picks are moved or swapped on on draft night, don't look at it as what's wrong with this player. Look at it more as what does this team need? What's. Or what do the teams involved in these draft swaps potentially need? Okay, let's keep it going. And I want to talk about AZ because everyone, including us are like, wait, could there be a Paige and AZ reunion in Dallas? Could we be basically seeing UConn just slowly trickling down to Texas thinking about AZ Fudd and her potential to be a number one pick and where she could end up. Sabrina, you had her where again at three to Seattle. Okay, three to Seattle. I like this choice. I like this choice from a perspective of having some youth injected back into Seattle, especially after, you know, last year was a little bit of a. I think the last few years have been a transitioning period from those excellent subird years in which you had someone that could ball handle, that could shoot outside, and they've pieced together some really great backcourt performances from Erica Wheeler and Skylar Diggins. And I just feel like they need a foundational player. And with those players being vets, you don't know where they're going to end up. So I like this pick for az. Ben, where'd you have az? And what do you think about this choice of Seattle?
- [49:42]
Ben Pickman
I mean, this landing spot would make a lot of sense. And if you're the Seattle Storm, I think you'd be thrilled to get AZ Fudd at number three. But I think there's. There's very much a question right now if she's going to last till number three. I mean, I think we talk about a la fam or Lauren bets for number one.
- [49:56]
Zena Kada
Wait, Ben, I just thought about it, like, if AZ goes to Seattle, there's another UConn reunion. Nika, like, potentially. Right?
- [50:04]
Ben Pickman
That's true. That's true.
- [50:06]
Sabrina Merchant
A little less exciting than AZ and Paige.
- [50:08]
Zena Kada
Not as hot as the Dallas one, but.
- [50:10]
Ben Pickman
Yes, but I think we should acknowledge that because I think one of the things that is so, I mean, it's unique, certainly. I mean, have we ever, in any other sport, like, easy fun from, you know, the latest information that we have gotten on Reddit and Instagram and all anywhere else on social media, dating Paige Beckers, right?
- [50:26]
Zena Kada
Yeah.
- [50:27]
Ben Pickman
And, like, you want to keep the star player happy, right? Like, and we know that not only, you know, EasyFud would be qualified enough to be the number one pick in her own Right. When you take away any of the page context, but we also know that, you know, they clearly have or they have this personal relationship and they have also succeeded playing alongside of each other. So you have two strong personal connections to the best player on the wings, the player that you are building your team around. How much does that, that context, whether that is the UConn encore context or the personal context factor into how Dallas decides to proceed? Because, like, I don't think you can, like, you can't rule it out, right, in terms of that being a factor and maybe in a situation in which there's small margins that separate prospect A from prospect B. Does some of that context, like, push Dallas to go the FUD route for number one? I mean, that is a super fair question. It's one that I know people were asking me. I was asking people on Sunday night after the Wings, you know, won the lottery.
- [51:35]
Zena Kada
Yeah. Chemistry cannot be understated. Like, whether it's basketball chemistry that you see personal chemistry. Like, luckily for az, she's got both when it comes to with Paige. So I just there. There is something to be said about familiarity as well and whether she ends up with Dallas, whether she ends up with Seattle. Like, we know what it's like to have people that come from the same programs, that come from the same coaching thread, what they look like when they. It translates out on the court and N were on the same team. Right. This isn't like years apart. They were literally in the trenches together. And so that. There's something to be said there too. FL is an interesting one because, Sabrina, I'm with you. I was coming in, I was like, I feel like Flaw J might be that dynamic score that a lot of teams want to bring into the mix. And we saw that Paige and Arique weren't quite the duo that everyone had expected them to be in terms of just the output together. Right. They were still phenomenal individually, but together out on the floor, it didn't quite mesh the way we thought it would. And my immediate instinct was like, maybe Flaw J, we know they have chemistry too. They're homies. We've seen them do world tours together.
- [52:47]
Sabrina Merchant
They're literally homies with everyone in the world. Like, you could put Flage with anyone, page records with anyone, and I would have no concerns.
- [52:53]
Zena Kada
That's very true. That's very true. But like, we. We know that there's chemistry there from that perspective, but also we just know that Flage would be that great score, that microwave score that we know Arike Gubawale to be as well. So thoughts around the Flage fluctuation, for lack of a better word, that just came to mind. But the fluctuation of where Flage has fallen in this top five conversation. What were your thoughts? Were you figuring out where to put her?
- [53:20]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, you know, these other college players have had big moments already in their senior seasons. Right. Like, we saw Olivia Miles go into Raleigh at Reynolds and have a great game against NC State and Lauren Betts against Oklahoma and North Carolina and, you know, AZ Fudd obviously popping off against Michigan and, you know, coming off of being the most outstanding player in the Final Four. And Flage Johnson has played five teams. You literally could not name a single player on it with all due respect to those five teams. So I think part of it is just the moment that we're in right now where LSU doesn't schedule all that hard at the start of the season. So we just know more about the current state of these other players. Right. Where I'm more confident in the fact that like, I know these things have translated for Olivia Miles, I know these things have translated for Lauren Betts. And I just literally have not seen Flache Johnson play meaningful basketball games since March.
- [54:04]
Zena Kada
Right.
- [54:05]
Sabrina Merchant
And that's part of it. Also, Flashy has never been the number one option on a team. Right. And I'm still waiting to see what that looks like again against great competition. And I have all the belief in the world that she could jump to number one or number two on this mock draft if she shows out during SEC season is like, sure I don't have Angel Reese, sure I don't have Anissa Morrow. I can still keep LSU at the top of this conference. What I believe to be the best conference in college basketball just haven't gotten there yet. Right. So this is more of an understanding of like I have a lot of belief in Plaje's potential, but I want to know what it looks like when she is given more responsibility and we just haven't had that opportunity.
- [54:40]
Zena Kada
My opinion, she is the best two way guard available and I think that that's. That counts for something. People want that to be able to play both sides of the ball and it's going to be interesting how that plays out. Ben, any other thoughts around the top five? We haven't talked about Olivia Miles really. And Olivia Miles is someone that could set the floor. We know that she could put teams in order. She could score with the best of them. We've seen her three point shot get so much better over the course of her career and she wants it like Olivia Miles wants to be in this conversation. And I think that her play has already demonstrated that this season and I feel like it's gonna just continue to do that this season. I feel like she can play her way into that number one conversation or number two conversation at least. What are your thoughts on Olivia Miles?
- [55:27]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean she was certainly right up there last year as a top three pick potentially had she declared and she elected to go back to school, transfers to TCU and and all seems like she's off to a very good start. But you've used the word fluctuation a few times Zena. So I'm hung up on that a little bit because I think the other thing we should say is, I mean how many years in a row, Sabrina, have we had a trade post lottery for one of the top five picks like the WNBA draft order? What you see right now, I think it's pretty unlikely that who is 1 through 5 is right now is going to end up taking being 1 through 5 this whenever this draft is held. And what is so interesting about you know, this draft is we have seen these picks be acquired via trade, right? The number one pick, the number two pick, the number three pick, the number five pick, those were all via trade. And so maybe those teams have already made moves. But I mean you look at Minnesota, it's a pretty appealing spot. I have to imagine they're going to field a lot of calls. Right. You know, if I'm a team that is looking to rebuild and I have one really great player that I might be trying to shop, can I make a Cheryl, I'll give you a win now kind of player to maybe push the Minnesota links over the edge and you give me the number two pick in the draft. I think that very much is in play. Kurt Miller said as much on his post lottery win zoom call where he was saying I've received more pre draft lottery calls about possible trades than I had all of last process because, because in past years people knew you get number one, don't waste my time. I'm not trading it. I'm going to take Paige Beckers, you get number one, don't waste my time. I'm going to take Caitlin Clark. Whereas this year, like those calls are not a waste of time necessarily. Right. And certainly when you go 2 through 5, those calls are definitely not waste of time. So Sabrina, I mean who do you think is most likely to, is there a team you think might be most likely to make a trade? Are you thinking about trade possibilities? How are you thinking about that right now?
- [57:29]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, Chicago is always expediting their timeline against what I believe is their best interests. So you know that could be potential there. Especially if they find themselves in a situation where the best player available is a big and they don't really feel like they need a big which I can understand like you said Minnesota, if they wanted to win. Now I don't really see that happening because they don't have a lot of forward looking pieces on this roster and you kind of just need something to build around going forward other than if he's A think. Right. But again, not under contract. So, you know, honestly, the younger teams like Washington and Chicago make more sense because Washington, again, big stable of young talent. If they feel like they have the right veteran to pair or if they could trade down for a couple other picks, you know, maybe you see somebody who's really excited about being in that spot because they have, like, good guards, they have good bigs. So, yeah, I think. I think 4 and 5 are probably the most likely for me to move.
- [58:17]
Zena Kada
How does this work? Just break down the trading of picks on draft night. Like, what typically incentivizes a team to pick up the fight? Or what typically incentivizes someone to say, you know what, let's just try it. Let's see if someone's willing to give us their number two for X, Y and Z. Like what. What have you guys heard about how these trades have come about on draft night? And is it something that's in the works up to draft night, or is it like, hmm, this player's still available? Let's try it.
- [58:48]
Ben Pickman
A lot of these trades are made well before the actual WNBA draft and well before draft night. They're made in January or they're made in February and they're agreed upon and released least then. And yeah, I mean, it is. It starts with natural conversations, just like this one. Just like any other transaction where it's just people picking up the phone and saying, you know, I'm looking to shop this, or would you be open to moving this? Or how do you value that? Or I heard that this team values this this way. Oh, that's interesting. Let me call that team and see what they think. Like, there's a lot of gossip. There's a lot of chatter. It is kind of what you think it is. And that's kind of how these trades come together. It comes together because teams are at different points in their cycle or they view themselves differently. I mean, Chicago, Sabrina just mentioned, like, they have a very strong perception about where they are at, a strong inclination about where they're at. And that has dictated their signings of Beck Allen or of other veteran players trading for Ariel Atkins or making kind of veteran first moves. What, Kia Nurse, another member of the Chicago Sky. Like. Like those are all players that they've gone out and either acquired or moved. You make that because of where you think you're at as a franchise. We've seen other teams go the other way and say, look, we're far away. We're going to try and get young. It's all about that kind of personal reflection of where you're at as an organization.
- [60:05]
Zena Kada
I love it. I love it. I got one more question for you guys before we wrap this up. We've been, we went pretty hard on the top five. We didn't get past really past them. But with that in mind, who could surprise us and find their way into the top five? Who could rise on draft night that you're like, oh, that wasn't on my board. But I understand why. Anyone that comes to mind.
- [60:29]
Sabrina Merchant
I think people like t' Niya Latson quite a bit. You know, she's going through the South Carolina Dawn Staley school of finishing. So that obviously helps you get clean up your pro prospects there. Somebody who led the nation in scoring is gonna have a chance to win a lot of games this year and we playing some high profile games. She produces well for the Gamecock. I could see her moving up potentially into that lottery too.
- [60:50]
Zena Kada
Oh, that's a good pick. What about you, Ben?
- [60:51]
Ben Pickman
I mean a name that I have my eye on throughout this process is Gabrielle Hawkes from ucla. I don't think she's necessarily going to be like a top three, top four pick, but she's so fascinating because she's probably not going to be a star, but like contributing high level contributors are really valuable and there's a lot of things that she does, does very, very well and she has her fingerprints all over games every single night. You know, she's gonna get a lot of the buzzwords, right? The, the winner, versatile, tough, fits in every situation. Like a lot of them really do apply to her and how she has fit in at ucla. She's experienced, she's been in big moments. Like all that I think is gonna bode really well. She's versatile, she can play, you know, one to four. Like she's a name that I, I'm watching and especially as it relates to can she end up in a spot with a, a winner, A team that is trying to add that a young piece, but a instant impact contributing young piece. Not unlike, I guess when her brother Jaime Haquez was drafted by the Miami Heat. He sled. He fell a little bit in his draft. I think he was what, like 18, I want to say 16, 18 right around there range.
- [62:04]
Zena Kada
He was 18 right before Brandon Pajemski.
- [62:07]
Sabrina Merchant
Right after Jalen Huchevino for the Lakers, his hometown team.
- [62:10]
Ben Pickman
Should we just keep naming players from that draft, folks? Should we, should we just keep going? But like he's someone who we've seen during his NBA rookie season. He Came in and made an immediate impact. And while his second year wasn't as good, like, he's continuing to make an impact right now. And maybe she follows that trajectory as her brother. I don't know. Another name to watch.
- [62:31]
Zena Kada
Yeah, for sure. For sure. My pick is Gianna Neepkins. And the only reason I think that is because Chicago has some early picks and they need shooting bad. And right now John neepkins is what, 48%, 49% from three. And sometimes you might just draft for that one skill because you might get that deep. It's an important skill to be able to space the floor, especially if you're a team that's got bigs that can't do it for you and they need that room to operate like that is specifically what you need to bring on. I think that there's an opportunity there for Gianna Neepkins to find her name called sooner than later. Especially if the team that is drafting her already has most of what they need in terms of maybe depth at a particular position or they got their big star and now they're just kind of rounding out the edges.
- [63:19]
Sabrina Merchant
I also think that this draft is going to be interesting, just like in terms of how we think about the draft going forward, because for so long it's been a 12 pick first round that just sort of creates a certain barrier of player that you think of as a first round type talent. And now with expansion, the first round's going to get bigger and bigger and it's like, do we still think that player warrants a. Just because the first round is longer. And I think you could see some teams sort of devaluing, like what it means to have a first round pick because they're like, if I'm picking 12 to 18, is that really even a first round pick? And that could lead to some potentially disastrous consequences if, like, you think you're gonna be picking late and all of a sudden you're giving up a higher pick. So I do think, just like the way we frame the draft is gonna be interesting going forward because of how the process is changing with expansion.
- [63:57]
Ben Pickman
And we've already seen that, Sabrina. I mean, think about the latter half of the first round. We didn't rattle off all the teams. We have Golden State, you have Washington again, that's a pick acquired via trade. You have Indiana, Washington again, Connecticut, Atlanta, Seattle and Connecticut. Notice some of the teams we didn't say, right, the Aces, the Liberty, the Links, you know, they won out with that pick at number two via smart trade, but they're not picking it the second half. The Phoenix Mercury, they're not going to have a first, first round pick for the second consecutive year.
- [64:25]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, is it really that new for Phoenix and Vegas not having first round picks?
- [64:28]
Ben Pickman
Right, exactly. But I think it shows you to your point about how do teams value the WNBA draft or what it means to have a pick 12 through 15. A lot of the teams that we think are closer to competing have said we're going to punt for future years. We're going to maybe see how this plays out. We're going to make trades that help us in the short term because we might not think that having the 14th pick is so, so valuable or that different than, you know, just keeping our second round pick wherever it may fall.
- [64:54]
Zena Kada
I immediately just think of what was Melissa smith traded for 20, 27 first round pick and got, I mean, got a championship out of it. So it did work out in that regard. But yeah, this is interesting. I, I think there might be folks that are already thinking ahead of what the first round means and maybe it isn't the same as a lottery pick, but you know, there might be a little bit of that devaluation that you're talking about. Sabrina, great pick, pick, swap or trade. Excuse me, for the aces to make in hindsight. All right, guys, we gotta close this out. I know we went really long today, but I think we've had some really great conversations and we also are not gonna have a Thanksgiving episode coming out this Friday, so. So, you know, we're kind of doubling down in this one show.
- [65:40]
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- [67:49]
Zena Kada
Before we get out of here, I want to do a fun little in honor of Thanksgiving, we thought we'd do a little segment on our favorite Thanksgiving foods with a player whose game fits them the best. Now, I will be honest. The dish I chose isn't my favorite dish, but it represents this player to me perfectly.
- [68:11]
Ben Pickman
I think you should just say it Zen. I think you should just share what you got.
- [68:13]
Zena Kada
Okay? Okay.
- [68:14]
Okay.
- [68:15]
So my favorite Thanksgiving dish is actually the Mac and cheese.
- [68:18]
Sabrina Merchant
Cheese.
- [68:19]
Zena Kada
But the thing about Mac and cheese is not everyone loves everyone's Mac and cheese. There's different consistencies. Some people like it really cheesy. Some people really like it, like, more dry. More like, I don't know, like more of a baked good almost than they want it to be. Cheesy. Then there are certain cheeses that some people use that other people don't like. You know, some people like gouda, Some people like cheddar, Some people, you know, it just. It can get interesting. And then some people are lactose intolerant. So not everybody can have Mac and cheese. It's a special delicacy on Thanksgiving. But you know what? You know who? You don't hear of people being like, oh, I'm allergic. Oh, I can't have that unless they're, like, against carbs. And that's just, you shouldn't come to my Thanksgiving Anyways, but people aren't saying this about mashed potatoes. Mashed potatoes are a staple at any Thanksgiving. If you don't know how to make any side at Thanksgiving, you can make some damn mashed potatoes, okay? You can figure out how to put a little butter or salt, salt, pepper, and mash those things up and make it to a consistency that everyone's happy with. And there's something that is so great about how solid it is. Simple. Not doing too, too much, but you can count on it. It's gonna feed families.
- [69:30]
Ben Pickman
Getting hungry, Zena getting hungry.
- [69:31]
Zena Kada
That is why. That is why I am choosing Audie Crooks is my mashed potatoes. She ain't gonna do too much, but she gonna hold down the paint. She's Gonna put up 20 a night, just doing some solid hooks, finish, drop step. I mean, all the things that I learned as a middle schooler of, like how to be a post sis is again, feeding families with her moves. So, Audi Crooks, you are my mashed potatoes. You are the person holding down the table. Everyone's eating off of you, and it's great. So thank you.
- [70:07]
Ben Pickman
Oh, that was a great spiel for Thanksgiving. Pre Thanksgiving food. I'm going to go real quick.
- [70:11]
Sabrina Merchant
Real quick. This is not actually my favorite Thanksgiving food. I just think it's the one that applies best here. When I think of Thanksgiving, you obviously think of the turkey. And I just don't think that, like, even people have a lot of feelings about turkey. They don't like it. They think it's, like, past its prime. They don't want it anymore. There's all these new variations. But inevitably, you have a Thanksgiving dinner and there's turkey in the middle of the table. And that's how I feel about UConn. They're just. They're there. They're a part of the festivities.
- [70:35]
Zena Kada
You gotta have them, and you got to have them. They're going to be the centerpiece at some point.
- [70:39]
Sabrina Merchant
They are the centerpiece for a reason. And that's how I feel about Yukon and turkey.
- [70:44]
Zena Kada
That's good, Ben, close this out.
- [70:46]
Ben Pickman
You know me, I like to close this out by going totally random and totally off the board. So I'm going to steer this in a terrible. A very different direction. I was thinking a lot about mascots, as I have been known to do, and I was thinking about the Chicago sky unveiling their mascot, sky the Lioness. I guess it was, what, two, I guess during the middle of the 2024 season and during that press release that they sent out they made clear. They're like sky the Lioness. We're bringing her in. She's going to be new. She was from the designer of the Denver Nuggets, Rocky and Harry the Hawk, two of the most famous NBA mascots. And don't worry, her costume was built by the New York Liberty's Ellie the elephant mascot costume designer. They made sure to get those ties in. To me, I think, about Thanksgiving week, and right now, this is at least where I'm at with my family. It's like wrestling. Like, recipe hunting season. And you're like. You're like, mom, dad, like, grandma, whatever. I've been looking at this recipe. It's from. It's from Barefoot Contessa. You know, it's from Allison Roman. It's Molly Baz. You know, it's like, it's name your chef, Molly Baz. Like, name your Instagram chef of choice who's ever on your feed. You're like, we're gonna do something different this year. I saw this great recipe from this famous person who I maybe have never taken a recipe from before, but I think we should really try it. That, to me, is what the Chicago sky, when they came up with their mascot, they're like, let's just pick the buzzwords of these other mascots, these famous people that we know, and let's bring it in to our recipe, our mascot. And sometimes it's like, sometimes those recipes, and let me tell you, I'm going. I'm hunting for some of those right now, so hopefully they work out for whatever I make. But, like, sometimes you find that the recipe from the chef that you've never heard of but is famous, and it just, like, doesn't work for your table, or you don't know how to make it as well as it is written on paper or from that YouTube video you watch. And to me, that's the Chicago Sky. Like, just. Just do it yourself. Like, you don't need to go looking for 10 options from chefs you've never heard of, Food Network shows you never watched. Like, just stick to what you know a little bit.
- [72:49]
Zena Kada
It makes me think of. There's the one viral video of a young girl getting cussed out by her mom to be like, why would you put cottage cheese in the Mac and cheese this season? Like, why would you try something new like that this year for all of us to eat? It's like, you know, stick to the basics. Sometimes it comes out a lot better.
- [73:07]
Ben Pickman
Nobody cares on Thanksgiving where it's from. They just care if it's good.
- [73:10]
Zena Kada
They don't care who they want it to be good. Exactly. Just like we care that y' all think this show is good. And that's gonna be all that we've got for you today. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. We're gonna be back next week. And reminder, any questions? Thoughts on our top five thoughts on what's going on with the the coaches. If you're a Liberty fan, how excited are you? What are your thoughts? We want to hear it all. Make sure you leave your comments under our show and drop us a line at our email. No offseasontheathletic.com there's more information in the show notes and head on over to our partner at Yahoo. Sports Hub for more content. Sports.yahoo.com womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic Sabrina Merchant Ben Pickman, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening and we'll see you guys week next next time no Off Season is hosted by Zena Ka with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell, our executive producer, Andrea B. Scott. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations.
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Sabrina Merchant
Up.
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Zena Kada
Forever.
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Ben Pickman
Whoa.
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T-Mobile Representative
So is Saldana.
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Ben Pickman
Wow.
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IPhone 17s.
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Ben Pickman
I'm the worst.
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I only got my mom a robe.
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Sabrina Merchant
It as a gift.
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T-Mobile Representative
Incredible.
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Zena Kada
Forget that.
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Ulta Beauty Representative
Aunt Liz will be jealous.
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T-Mobile Representative
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Zena Kada
Oh, I got it.
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Zena Kada
To T Mobile.
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Ben Pickman
For well qualified customers.
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Ben Pickman
If you pay off earlier.
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