Inside the Liberty & Storm Head Coach Shake-Ups + Semis Game 3 Look-aheads

Summary

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No Offseason: The Athletic Women’s Basketball Show

Episode: Inside the Liberty & Storm Head Coach Shake-Ups + Semis Game 3 Look-aheads
Date: September 26, 2025
Hosts: Zena Keda, Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the recent high-profile coaching changes in the WNBA — with Sandy Brondello out at the New York Liberty and Noelle Quinn departing the Seattle Storm — and unpacks what these moves mean for both teams and for the league at large. The hosts also provide detailed breakdowns and lookaheads for the pivotal Game 3s in the WNBA semifinals, highlighting strategies, key performances, and ongoing storylines. Additionally, the show tackles larger, systemic issues around representation at the coaching level and closes with a fun “Who Said It?” game mixing Jonas Brothers lyrics and Diana Taurasi wisdom.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Playoff Semifinals: Game 2 Recaps & Game 3 Look-Aheads

Las Vegas Aces vs. Indiana Fever

• Aces bounced back at home: After a surprise home loss, Las Vegas routed Indiana 90-68 to even the series.
• Asia Wilson’s resilience: Sabrina noted, “Asia does not have bad games twice in a row” ([04:47], Sabrina Merchant).
  • Cited Aces PR stats showing Wilson’s historic ability to bounce back after poor shooting nights.
• Team adjustments: Ball movement was significantly improved — assists up from 12 in Game 1 to 22 in Game 2.
• Kelsey Mitchell is the key for Indiana: Ben underscores Indiana’s hopes hinge on “making sure that Kelsey Mitchell is getting as high quality of shot attempts as she possibly can” ([06:54], Ben Pickman).
• Home-court advantage: Both hosts agree Indiana’s depth has been hammered by injuries but expect a better performance from rotation players at Gainbridge Fieldhouse ([09:43], Sabrina Merchant).

Phoenix Mercury vs. Minnesota Lynx

• Mercury’s incredible comeback: Down 20 in the third quarter, Phoenix storms back to win in overtime.
  • Noted by Ben: “Phoenix Mercury had only won one game in their franchise’s history when trailing by 15 or more at halftime. Game 2 became instance number two” ([11:55], Ben Pickman).
• Defense and depth shine: Phoenix forced 11 turnovers in the second half and got critical bench contributions — “Katherine Westfeld, DeWanna Bonner, and of course, the wild Sammy Whitcomb game-winning three” ([13:53], Zena Keda).
  • Sabrina, on Phoenix’s options: “They have a lot of options they can go to when things aren’t quite clicking” ([15:10], Sabrina Merchant).
• Minnesota’s challenge: Lynx’s supposed depth evaporated; got only three bench points.
  • “When Atisha Heideman can’t get her way going to the paint...the Lynx couldn’t find it” ([15:10], Sabrina Merchant).
• Game 3 expectations: Cheryl Reeve expected to “preach getting back to Minnesota Lynx basketball — poise, not getting rattled, aggressive line-up changes if needed” ([17:40], Ben Pickman).
• Phoenix’s upside: Hosts note that Phoenix might have three players (Alyssa Thomas, Satou Sabally, Kahleah Copper) capable of being the best on the floor in any game, giving them a potential edge.

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2. The Major Head Coach Shake-Ups: Liberty & Storm

Sandy Brondello’s Dismissal (New York Liberty)

• Context: Sandy not retained after the 2025 season (less than a year after a championship and a postseason exit).
• Front office reasoning: Jonathan Kolb (GM) called it a “proactive decision, not reactive,” citing an “ever-evolving” WNBA requiring more innovation ([23:23], Ben Pickman).
• Contractual signals: Brondello had only secured a one-year guarantee after the title win — foreshadowing possible lack of faith.
• Style-of-play factors: Liberty fell behind in offensive innovation; their shot profile became league-average compared to last year’s league-leading metrics ([23:23], Ben Pickman).
• Player reaction: Stewie was publicly shocked when asked about Brondello’s future ([26:04], Zena Keda).
• Risk assessment: Sabrina: “You don’t just bring in a new coach and expect her to win a title right away… it's very risky for New York” ([27:05], Sabrina Merchant).
• Culture vs. innovation: Contradictions between being “player-led” while making such a top-down decision.

Noelle Quinn’s Firing (Seattle Storm)

• Track record: 4.5 seasons, four playoff appearances, but only one playoff series win.
• “Enough time”: “They gave her plenty of opportunities to get over that hurdle [winning in playoffs]… like, have we done anything we wanted to do in these five years?” ([36:42], Sabrina Merchant).
• Team direction: Seattle faces a unique “two-timeline” roster dilemma, with veterans and promising youth like Dominika Malaonga. New coach choice will signal future direction ([39:19], Ben Pickman).
• Off-court issues: Lingering player unrest (e.g., Jewel Loyd trade discourse), no substantiated off-court issues found but culture in question.

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3. Representation and Coaching Runway in the WNBA

• Current landscape: With Quinn’s dismissal, there are no Black women head coaches in the WNBA ([41:57], Zena Keda).
• Double standard: Zena: “There's a double standard for Black women as coaches—loved as players, but not trusted as leaders” ([41:57], Zena Keda).
• Tenure disparities: Noted how non-Black coaches (male and female) sometimes get more job security despite similar or worse records (e.g., Tyler Marsh, Chris Koclanes).
• Coaching pipeline: Despite NBA & league-wide measures to add former players to coaching staffs, pathway to head coaching roles remains rocky and often cut short.
• Mentorship gap: Ben notes Stephanie White was mentored deeply by Lin Dunn, but such mentorships are increasingly rare given high turnover ([52:03], Ben Pickman).
• Systemic implications: Sabrina: “You can justify every individual situation… but the fact remains… there are no Black women currently in head coaching positions—and that is a broader trend” ([47:44], Sabrina Merchant).

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4. Names to Watch: Next Coaching Hires

• Potential candidates:

  • Christy Tolliver: Top Mercury assistant, lauded for basketball IQ, but advised to be “picky” with jobs due to lack of runway for first-timers ([45:20], Ben Pickman).
  • Breon January: Current assistant with Fever, former Storm player, could be in Seattle mix.
  • Sonia Rahman: Liberty assistant with NBA and NCAA experience, praised for innovation ([53:55], Ben Pickman).
  • Sandy Brondello: Could bounce to an expansion franchise like Toronto.
  • James Wade, Latricia Trammell: Former WNBA head coaches who may surface again ([55:14], Sabrina Merchant).
  • Other intriguing assistants: Grooming Christmas-Kelly, Austin Kelly, Nola Henry, all called “up-and-comers” ([55:44], Sabrina Merchant).

• Expansion factor: With Toronto (and possibly Golden State) entering, more seats at the table, but concerns linger about equitable opportunity.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

On Aces’ response in Game 2

“Asia does not have bad games twice in a row.”
— Sabrina Merchant ([04:47])

On New York Liberty’s approach to coaching change

“This was a proactive decision and not a reactive decision… it was about being more innovative, more adaptable.”
— Ben Pickman recounting GM Jonathan Kolb ([23:23])

On the double standard for Black women coaches

“There’s a double standard for Black women as coaches—loved as players, but not trusted as leaders… [they aren’t] provided the space to make mistakes.”
— Zena Keda ([41:57])

On the rarity—and risk—of firing a reigning champion coach

“It’s weird to me that they’re almost sacrificing a season… it is a risky game to play when you have one of the top two, top three players in the WNBA right now.”
— Sabrina Merchant ([27:05])

On the “runway” for aspiring head coaches

“You're not getting a lot of opportunity to have multiple seasons to learn… you might only get one shot, like, one year or two years—if you screw up that one shot, that could be it.”
— Ben Pickman ([50:13])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Aces-Fever Game 2 Analysis: [04:47] – [10:17]
• Mercury-Lynx Comeback & Rotation Insights: [11:30] – [19:46]
• Liberty & Storm Head Coach Firings: [21:30] – [41:57]
• Representation & Systemic Trends in Coaching: [41:57] – [53:19]
• Potential Coaching Candidates for Upcoming Jobs: [53:19] – [55:44]
• Notable Quotes Compilation: [Throughout]
• “Who Said It?” Game (Jonas Brothers or Diana Taurasi): [57:39] – [61:17]

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Tone & Atmosphere

The show is lively, insightful, and at times irreverent, characterized by authentic, opinionated debate. The hosts effortlessly weave hard analysis with cultural context, mentoring, and personal anecdotes, showing deep investment in both the WNBA’s on-court drama and its off-court evolution.

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Memorable Moments

• Sammy Whitcomb’s wild game-winner: “That Sammy Whitcomb shot is something to behold—the fact that she air balled the first one and then found her way and she had been running around all night long…” ([13:53], Zena Keda)
• Jonathan Kolb’s language at the Liberty presser: “We consider ourselves to be a player led organization. That being said, I made the decision to fire Sandy.” ([27:05], Sabrina Merchant)
• Diversity discussion—roster/bench representation: “It's gotta be so frustrating that, like, my owners care more about my team now, but that means they don't want me to coach the team, right? Like, how stupid is that?” ([47:44], Sabrina Merchant)
• “Who Said It?” Game (Jonas Brothers lyric or Taurasi quote): A fun segment flexing the hosts' pop culture and hoops knowledge ([57:39]).

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Action Items & Upcoming

• Game 3s and 4s in semifinals: Can’t-miss playoff basketball coming up.
• Coaching carousel updates: Watch this space for news, especially regarding increased representation.
• Finals coverage: The pod will drop episodes the morning after each Finals game.

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Closing

The episode exemplifies how the WNBA’s on-court action and off-court dynamics are inseparably linked. It offers essential insider perspectives, calls attention to long-term league growth issues, and keeps listeners entertained and informed — whether you’re a diehard or a newcomer.

Transcript

[Zena Keda]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to no Off Season, presented by Amazon Business. I'm Zena Keda.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Ben Pickman]

And I'm Ben Pickman.

[Zena Keda]

And today on the show, some top teams have exited the playoff stage, and heads are already starting to roll, but probably not the ones some of you expected. Or maybe you. Sandy Brandello is out at the Liberty. Noel Quinn is out at the Storm. We're going to dive into why these head coaches have been fired, who might be next in line for their jobs, and some deeper questions around representation at the top of the teams in the W. But first, an applause is called for. Let's give it up for Ben Pickman coming back from overseas having ran a marathon more miles. I mean, I'm sure I probably racked them up over college, but more miles than I could ever run. Absolutely. 26.2 is all done. Ben, how do you feel?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I feel pretty good, Zena. Yeah, I ran the Berlin Marathon. And let me just get ahead of it, no, I did not see Harry Styles. That is the number one question I have been asked this week. More than how did you do? Or how are you feeling? It is, did you see Harry? Crossed the finish line, ran a time not too far behind his. He ran a great time, but no, there were no sightings. I'll be very clear about that right now.

[Zena Keda]

Damn, you skipped ahead for me. I thought it was so cool, though, that he ran under an anonymous name, so people didn't know until afterwards. I guess he got spotted. But Congratulations, Ben.

[Ben Pickman]

Thank you.

[Zena Keda]

I don't know how you did this.

[Ben Pickman]

I ran under my name, too, if we want to be very clear here as well. No pseudonym for me either.

[Zena Keda]

Got you. Okay.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. I learned about Harry's time before I learned about Ben's time. That's for sure.

[Zena Keda]

Right, Exactly. I think the whole world found out about Harry Styles running this. And I think the only way that people knew or to think about the Berlin Marathon was either you follow Ben Pickman on social media or you heard about this Harry Styles situation. But you finding a way to fit that in during the WNBA playoffs is crazy because it's been wild since you left. And we're happy you're back because it's not only just been playoffs, it's been stuff off the court as well. But we're going to get into the games first. Okay. Tuesday night, both semifinals, matchup squared off. I was sat on my couch for four hours straight. It was wonderful. It was too hot in the bay, but it was great because it was some really good leveling. Out of both of these matchups, the Mercury and the Aces notched wins. And now each series is at 1 and 1. So let's start with the more decisive win. Okay. Back in Vegas, the Aces bounced back roundly, defeating the fever 90 to 68. And it wasn't. It. I don't know. I don't think it was close. It didn't feel close except for like maybe the first quarter, but it was a tough one for Indiana. And I don't think you could have not expected this, the way that Aces rolled into this game. Sabrina, you were there. We know that the last time they were matched up, Asia had just won the mvp. So there was already a buzz in the air because of that. But now there's a buzz in the air because it's like, hold up. We're 0 and 1 and we let Indiana steal one at home. So what was the vibe in the arena? And what are you Seeing in these two teams.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yes, we talked about the vibe on Sunday. A noon game in Las Vegas on a Sunday is not prime for people to be and, you know, active participants as fans at McLove Ultra Arena. A much better vibe, I would say at almost 6:30pm Also not great on a Tuesday. But hey, people were there. The crowd was loud, they were into it. Asia was much more mentally ready to go, I think. I know she's mentioned that getting the MVP award on the same day as playing a game has always been emotionally challenging for her. Just trying to separate the individual element with also having to perform for her team. It's just a lot to have to process all at once. High class problems, really. But she was definitely ready to go on Tuesday. Asia does not have bad games twice in a row. So, you know, Asus PR had sent out a stat that the last five games that Asia has shot below 30% just throughout her career. She comes back the next game shooting about 60%, averaging 30 points and 12 rebounds. So a little short of those numbers but not needed for the Las Vegas Aces as they soundly took care of the fever. Like you said, not a lot of surprises here. This is what Vegas had to do. Teams that are down.02 in the best of five playoff series are winless in 19 tries in WNBA playoff history. So you just can't afford that, especially not when you're losing home court advantage after the fever. You feel good about getting out of Vegas with a split if you feel you're the Aces, you obviously feel good about having showed what you're capable of doing. So yeah, I wish I had more to say about this, but like, this is what the Aces are supposed to do. It's what they did, you know, and everybody goes back to Indiana for a very pivotal game three.

[Zena Keda]

Ben, did you get a chance to watch this game when you came back?

[Ben Pickman]

Oh, yeah, I'm caught up on everything. Don't worry about me. Zena.

[Zena Keda]

Good, good, good. I just wanted to make sure because now, as you know, Sybretta, all Asia went off and Asia was moving in space. You saw their assist total go from 12 in the first game, 22 in this game. They were moving the ball around. They were feeling very comfortable, very Aces like. So, Ben, I'm looking like if I'm Steph White and she's been a chess player and you saw it in Atlanta and now you're seeing some of it play out here with the Aces. But what's her next chess move going into game three? They're back at home in Indiana.

[Ben Pickman]

A good question. I mean, for me, I'm looking at Kelsey Mitchell and how she performs in game three and trying to make sure that Kelsey Mitchell is getting as high quality of shot attempts as she possibly can because she had to work incredibly hard in game two when she only has 13 points to try and find looks. And that was because, you know, Jackie Young is fighting over every screen. And if Jackie Young is getting beat off pick and rolls, you see Asia Wilson coming out on the perimeter into space and Asia Wilson, you know, some of those looks Mitchell made. But Asia is as good of a perimeter defender as any player who is her size in the wnba. So if I'm Steph White again, it's trying to make sure that you can get a consistent performance out of Kelsey Mitchell, who took more field goal attempts than she scored points in game two. And there was this stretch in the regular season. Kelsey has been really consistent for the Fever. That is one of her strengths. It's why she was a top five mvp. But there was this stretch in kind of late July and early August that I'm kind of highlighting if I'm the Fever and I'm trying to avoid going forward because she has this stretch where she scores 8 points, then the next night, next game she scores 23, then 9, then 34, then 12. Right? Game one, she scores 34 points. Game two, she scores 13. You really need her to bounce back and you need her to sustain that bounce back. That's the only chance that the Fever have. They need to make sure Mitchell is consistent and they need to make sure their defense is as physical and aggressive as it can be. We have seen both coaches talk a lot about officiating and physicality in this series. You can expect the Fever, who you know, around the league are known for playing physical defense, to try and utilize their home crowd to be physical, to create chaos, to feed off the energy of the crowd on defense, and they need to let Mitchell cook and get good opportunities on the offensive end.

[Zena Keda]

You know, you. It's a really good point. Sabrina just said Asia doesn't have two bad games in a row. But it seems like Kelsey Mitchell also doesn't have two bad games in a row. She went four of six from the three point line in that first game, one of six in that second game. So I'm expecting a bounce back out of her. But my question is, is, is that bounce back really going to do anything after the fact that the Aces have adjusted in the way that they're guarding her and showing her different looks and particularly clogging up her vision. Whether it's Jackie Young in front of her with the tenacity or just that second line of defense being able to kind of dissuade her from going into the paint or going into that mid range that she likes. I don't know if it's enough. What do y' all think?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think offense is really where Indiana lost that game. You know, just a lot of live ball turnovers, a lot of unforced errors. Letting Vegas get back into the open court, not cleaning the glass particularly well. You'd think you'd just shoot better at Gainbridge, right? Like, Lexi hall had a lot of good looks. I mean, she hit four threes already, and I still think that she had left a lot on the table, honestly.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I agree.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So, you know, you get her going a little bit, you get perhaps shaped going off the bench. Maybe Ariel Powers finds a couple moments here and there, but that's what you expect when you get back home, right? Like the rotation players, the role players play a little bit better and like, you had a little bit of a boost to augment your stars, right? So if we expect that Kelsey Mitchell's going to have a bounce back game and it's just a matter of like, do they have enough to spot around her? Because that's when the question with the Fever coming into the postseason, right, like, they've experienced so many injuries, their depth is so, so beaten down that, like, who is going to be able to step up to the plate any given night? And at home I think you just have better odds that someone's going to be able to do it.

[Zena Keda]

Let's flip over to the other game because I'm not going to lie, this first game, I was ready to turn it off, okay? I was ready to turn it off and I was just like, oh, all right, let me just go get some dinner. I'm going to get ready for Aces and the Fever and man, Phoenix, as we were watching this game, I'm, you know, I'm going down my socials. I'm seeing what other people are saying. I'm like, there was a way that y' all were beating Minnesota in the first game. It was driving, it was getting into the paint, and it felt as if they were living and dying by the three in the first half of that game against Minnesota. And then in the second half, not only were they finding their way into the paint, also, good defense in transition, their bench became a thing. Dejuana Bonner had eight points in the Fourth quarter. Katherine Westfold had eight points in the third quarter and they surmounted this unbelievable comeback. I mean, I was so impressed by what Phoenix was able to do, ending up winning that game in overtime against the Minnesota Links. Ben, you're caught up. What did you see in that game that you did not expect out of the Phoenix Mercury?

[Ben Pickman]

I love that you're talking about wanting to turn off the Aces Fever game, because look, had you turned off game two of the Mercury and the Links midway through the third quarter when the Links were up 20 points, no one would have really blamed you because the Links usually don't blow opportunities like that. And the Phoenix Mercury just want to.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Point out that the Lynx did blow a 21 point lead not very long ago to Seattle Storm at the end of August. So it's not unprecedented.

[Ben Pickman]

That is why I said not usually. And I was also going to say the Phoenix Mercury, they had only won one game in their franchise's history when trailing by 15 or more points at halftime. And game two became instance number two of that occurrence. So they're not one often to come back from down 15 at the break. But everything kind of started to shift in the third quarter. And you know, Nafisa Collier said that we beat ourselves. She said unforced turnovers were really important. And there was this stretch where Minnesota had five turnovers in six possessions late in the third quarter. And that was really key in Phoenix going on their run. And some of it was just a function of simple ball pressure, like extending a little bit of ball pressure after makes making it a little bit more difficult for Minnesota to initiate offense and then forcing turnovers, getting out in transition and running. And we just saw the Phoenix Mercury just chip away like, oh, possession after possession after possession. And it wasn't until the 409 mark in overtime when they took their first lead since late in the first quarter. So it wasn't even like, you know, they took this lead in the fourth quarter. They literally had to wait until overtime until Sammy Wickham hits this crazy shot in this crazy broken place sequence in the waning seconds of the game. It was just incredibly impressive for Phoenix to continue to fight, to be gritty, to be resilient, to be aggressive. And you know, those are qualities that we have seen from them at times all year. And it stems from Alyssa Thomas, who is relentless. It's Satu Sabali who she talked about in the New York series, like not trying to beat herself up after poor performances. She didn't play her best after game one. We saw her rebound scores 24 points in game two. They just continue to to stay with it. And look, Cheryl Reeves said they didn't look like themselves, but this is a good version of the Phoenix Mercury. Like when they are clicking, they have the kind of relentless pressure that they played with in the second half. And you know, certainly as Sabrina said, that O2 stat, they have a lot more momentum heading into Friday's game three now, right?

[Zena Keda]

This is a team that was top in top four in defense. And you saw that in that second half, forcing 11 turnovers for 16 points. And that Sammy Whitcomb shot is something to behold. The fact that she air balled the first one and then found her way and she had been running around all night long, but being able to escape side dribble and pull up for three, what an unbelievable shot.

[Ben Pickman]

It's a crazy shot. And we should listen to Nate Tibbets postgame because he said he drew up two plays in the huddle that they ran. This was the second one that they ran, but it seems like they didn't run it correctly. And I even asked him post game, you know, he initially said like, we didn't run it right. And I asked him at the end of his press conference, can you just confirm and elaborate, like, what didn't you run right about this? And he was hesitant to reveal any trade secrets about what the play was supposed to be, but he said basically that Sammy saved my ass. That was a direct quote from him. And that's what great players, great shooters do. Like, totally a broken play, totally a crazy shot. But you saw Sammy Whitcomb's fearlessness throughout really, the final few minutes of that game. Like, she's a really good shooter and she kept shooting. And that's what you want your role players in those moments to do, to be on the road. It's a veteran role player and someone who you know is really important for them going forward.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, it seemed like Nate said that he had drawn up two plays because he expected Minnesota to foul, so then they'd have the second one in their back pocket to run. But then the players weren't clear as to which one they were supposed to run. So they kind of ran the second play, but then didn't run it right. And that's how you end up with Sammy Wickham just having to pull something of her ass and like Nate said, you know, saving him. But I just want to highlight Samuel Wickham for a second because, you know, we talked about this coming into the series, about Minnesota's depth relative to Phoenix's depth. And Minnesota gets three points off of their bench in that entire game. You know, a complete shutout from Natisha Heideman. And this is the kind of game where, like, you would really love to have a dijonay Carrington when Bridget Carlton can't seem to buy a bucket and when Atisha Heideman can't get her way going into paint and they just, they don't have any options, right? Like, when it comes to their perimeter rotation, it is just the starting guards and Atisha Heideman. And if you don't have it, like, you just have to find it. And the Lynx couldn't find it. And then you look at Phoenix, where Katherine Westwell comes off the bench and hits those two big threes. And dejuana Bonner, like you mentioned, big performance in the second half and just so important defensively, right? Like, what she was able to accomplish with their switching and just all of the defensive assignments that Bonner can handle with her length and her activity. And then you have Sammy Wickham, also a bench player, coming off and just hitting the very biggest shot of the season. So, you know, you looked at these rosters at the start of the season and thought that we had some questions about the Mercury's depth. And they have proven all of those wrong. Like, they have a lot of options they can go to when things aren't quite clicking. Like if it's Natasha Mack game or if it's a Bonner game or if it's a Westfield game. And like, whether It's Monika Kohl McConney assignment or Sammy Wickham can play these minutes. And I think Nate just pushed a lot of the right buttons. And he, frankly just has more options at his disposal right now than Charles Reeve does.

[Zena Keda]

Which is a crazy thing to say because that's what we've been talking about the Minnesota Links having all season long is depth, depth, depth and also familiarity with one another, right? Like, these are the players that had literally been in the finals just a year removed. And so now you're going into this situation, you gotta go away into the X factor with the fact that you don't have this depth that you thought you had because it struggled last game. But we know the links to be resilient. And the funny thing is, is that the Phoenix Mercury did exactly what Minnesota did to them in that first game. They just flipped it on his head, came back late, able to win it out, took it overtime. Sure. Okay, I'll give them that. Took an overtime to do, but still being able to come back. Minnesota knows themselves. They know who they are at their core regardless of what's happening with Dijonay and their depth. So what's Sheryl Reeves pregame talk to this team as they head into game three?

[Ben Pickman]

I think what you know is so telling is I think Cheryl Reeve knows what to say and I think her players know what she is going to say. And that is like, we need to get back to playing Minnesota Lynx basketball. And really the test is, will they listen to the message that she gets across? Because Cheryl Reeves said post game, like she told her players at halftime of game two, they're gonna come out aggressive and basically fight like their season is on the line. And that is exactly what the Phoenix Mercury did coming out of the halftime locker room. And so in game three, like, I think they're gonna preach we need to get back to again, playing with poise, not getting rattled. We need to not let their pressure, the intensity of the crowd phase us in any form or fashion. I think Cheryl Reeve, you'll see her be aggressive in lineup substitutions, right? If a player is not producing or not up to her standard like she's shown early in the series in Game one, I mean, you guys talked about it last last week with Masha Clindakova, like, quick hook, make the change, do what she thinks is best in the moment. I think players fully understand that, like, Cheryl's going to push whatever button she needs to do to make sure that they win Game three. I think the big difference, though, between this series and the first one we talked about is on any given night, Phoenix really has arguably three players who could be the best player on the floor, right? Certainly, I think you can make that argument pretty easily with Alyssa Thomas and Satu Sabalin, if Kalia Copper is capable of that too. Whereas I don't think you can make that case as clearly in the Aces. Like, Asia is pretty much always going to be the best player on the floor no matter what. And so that is one thing that I'm a little bit worried of in the case of Minnesota because, like all you need, if you're Phoenix right now, you need an unbelievable SATU game or a, you know, an unbelievable car game. And then you get another one of the Big three to have that kind of game on Sunday and that's your season, right? Like, it can be as over as that. Now, Minnesota, as Sabrina has said, has rebounded all year. They haven't played like they have played in the second half all year. So they're going to rely on that, knowing that they've been the more consistent team. But like the Phoenix Mercury are very much in this series as it goes back to Phoenix.

[Zena Keda]

It does feel like Phoenix has some X and Y and Z factors.

[Ben Pickman]

Well done. Well done, Zena.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well done.

[Zena Keda]

Wink, wink. I. I mean, I don't know. I gotta get Z in there somewhere. Anywho, let's keep it moving because obviously the game threes are coming. We'll see what the coaches say. We'll see the adjustments. That's the fun of the playoffs. It's constantly a chess match, but we gotta talk about the people that have been removed from the chess board completely. On the other side of this break, how can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support [e-mail] Only boost mobile Boost Mobile.

[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Ben Pickman]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Ben Pickman]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Ben Pickman]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Ben Pickman]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too.

[Ben Pickman]

Ah, really?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Thanks Capital One Bank Guy what's in your wallet?

[Ben Pickman]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

Okay guys, it's that time of year and I'm not talking about just the WNBA playoffs. This is the time of year when we start seeing teams make their moves. Teams start to set themselves up for next season and the future of the organization, right? These moves seem so, so dramatic and so big in terms of setting up what a team wants to do moving forward, especially after they assess where they were this year. And we've seen two teams make some pretty dramatic statements as to where their future is headed. On Sunday, Seattle Storm parted ways with Noelle Quinn, former WNBA player who had led the team for the past five years. And earlier this week, following the team's first round exit from the playoffs. The New York Liberty opted not to renew the contract for head coach Sandy Brondello. Mind you, she had been on a one year contract. So she had been with the teams for the past four seasons. And of course, they had just won a championship last year. I don't know why I'm whispering. I don't know why I feel like.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It'S apparently a big secret. The Liberty not know this.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, yeah. They are the reigning champs. So let's talk about both of these women and these teams who might be their successors and some of the larger cultural imprint that these type of factors, you know, that are at play here. So, Ben, you literally live around the corner from Barclays, which is so crazy that while this is happening, you are just gallivanting across Europe.

[Ben Pickman]

I was actually home for this. You know, let me be clear.

[Zena Keda]

Oh, you were.

[Ben Pickman]

I was home for about eight. I had been home for maybe seven hours.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, listen. Jonathan Kolb, GM at New York Liberty was like, I think Ben's out of town, town. Let's do it now. But he missed it by seven hours. You've covered the Liberty during Sandy's tenure. You know how beloved she's been there. To many people this was a shock, and to some it wasn't. I want to know what you thought. Did you see this coming?

[Ben Pickman]

I was not surprised by this move. And I wrote about this earlier this week and Jonathan Kob actually talked about it on Thursday morning, that Sandy Brondello did not get let go because of this year's performance. She did not get let go, per Jonathan, because they lost in the first round. Like he used the phrase, that this was a proactive decision and not a reactive decision. That this was something that seemingly they had been thinking about for a long time. And we know this because after they won the championship last year, Sandy Brondella renegotiated with the Liberty her contract. And basically in renegotiating the deal, she was guaranteed for this 2025 season. And then there was a partially guaranteed team option for 2026. And what that tells you is even after winning, she did not have a three or five year long contract. Like basically, she had one more guaranteed year and she coached her guaranteed year out and that was that. And basically what Jonathan said on Thursday morning was that this is an ever evolving period in the wnba. And you might ask Xena, what does an evolving period and ever evolving period in the WNBA mean? And I asked that question to Jonathan Kolb actually during his press conference, and he was talking about Just how the style of play in the WNBA is rapidly changing on both ends. And he specifically cited, you know, free throw attempt rate and 3 point attempt rate is metrics in the course of his conversation. And, you know, credit to Lucas Kaplan, who's another really good journalist who covers the Liberty, who actually wrote about this again before Jonathan Kolb's press conference, that in 2023, just over 70% of New York shots came from three point range or at the rim. That was first in the league by a mile this year, 65% of their shots, free throws or threes, and that ranked fifth. And basically, while New York kind of stayed the same and how they executed on the offensive end, a lot of teams around them changed. And so in an effort, per New York, to be more innovative, to be more adaptable, they felt the need to make a move. Now, you can certainly argue, you know, Sandy, Brandella, championship winning coach, she's won two titles. Could she help have innovated or continue to help this team change and evolve? And I think that's a super fair question. And, you know, continuity could be a catalyst for change. That was a phrase that Jonathan Kolb used. But in the eyes of the New York Liberty, they said, no, that is not the case. And that injuries, you know, not her fault by any means. But they revealed some of the other flaws of the team. Defensive effort, inconsistent play by Jonquil Jones, not getting the shot profile that they want. And so in an effort to change and kind of stay ahead of the times, really get these market advantages, they end up making the move that they made.

[Zena Keda]

I saw that Briana Stewart was very shocked when a member of the media had asked about whether Sandy Rondella would be here or not. Or. I don't remember the exact question or how it was phrased, but I just, I do remember her being like the.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Media member asked, like, what do you think about people saying that if Sandy deserves to be here next year?

[Zena Keda]

Right? And she was just like, what? Like.

[Sabrina Merchant]

But not as clean as that, Zena.

[Zena Keda]

Right. Exactly right. There was another little F bomb in there. But, Sabrina, I love Ben's piece on this on the site, which I encourage all of you guys to read, because he also lays out how rare this is. There were no examples of people being fired right after a championship, but they were examples in the NBA of people being fired within two years or so. But the impact on the players, when you've got a team that's just won a championship and now they're losing the coach that got them there, what could this mean in terms of, you know, how they're prioritizing winning and what that looks like versus the culture of the team and like what's going on around the organization in New York?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, I think Jonathan Coe would argue that they're prioritizing both. Right. That the culture wasn't what it needed to be to support winning. Right. And that's why they're going in a different direction. And I, obviously I'm not in that locker room, but I happen to disagree. You know, I think it's very hard to win a title in the first year that you come into a new team. It has happened before by Becky Hammond in 2022 and a woman by the name of Sandy Brondello in 2014 in Phoenix. You don't just bring in a new coach and expect her to win a title right away, but when you have a 32 year old Briana sewer, when you have Sabrina UNESCO entering her seventh season in the WNBA and you know, Jonquil Jones, same age as Stewie, like you need to win right now. And it's weird to me that they're almost sacrificing a season because they were a little hurt and like, didn't like the way things were going with Sandy Brandello in 2025. So I think it's very risky for New York to do this. Obviously their players went to bat for Sandy. Right. You saw that publicly. Maybe it was because of the way the question was framed. Like, obviously you're not going to say bad things about Sandy while she's sitting right next to you on the podium. But I think it is telling that, like, I think one of the phrases that came out of the press conference from Jonathan Kolb was like, we consider ourselves to be a player led organization. That being said, I made the decision to fire Sandy. So slightly contradictory statements there, but this is clearly a decision that came from above. And you know, it doesn't seem like there was a lot of faith in Sandy coming into the season because of the contract that she was coaching on. They're going to have to build an entirely new foundation next season because you're bringing in a new coach. Because let's face it, you lose Sandy Brandello, you're going to lose her husband, Olaf Lang, who's like your defensive coordinator. You're losing some of those assistant coaches. And you know, like talking to Becky Hammond this week, talking to Steph White this week, it's not that easy to just come in and expect things to continue from where they've been. If you're Gonna bring in entirely new terminology, entirely new personnel, like, people who are bringing in a new way of doing things. And Steph White knows this very well because she just came into Indiana this year and, like, yeah, they expected to just continue on from what Caitlin Clark and, you know, Aaliyah Boston did a year before. But it's just not how it works. So you can say all the right things about, like, yeah, we consider ourselves to be championship organization, and we fell short of that standard this year. And so someone else is gonna help us meet that standard. And I just don't think you can do it that fast. And, like, it is a risky game to play when you have one of the players who may be top two, top three player in the WNBA right now, and you're saying, like, hey, hold on, we might have to take a step back next year because, you know, whatever shortcomings they thought Sandy Brandello had.

[Ben Pickman]

As a head coach, what's so interesting about that? And we should say Olaf Lang confirmed not returning for the team next year. Some of the other assistants, Sonia Rahman, we'll talk about her a little bit later. Unclear what her status will be. Andrew Wade, a player development coach who was also a head coach at Unrivaled. Not sure what it means for him. I think we'll have to wait and see when a new staff eventually comes in. To your point, Sabrina, about time. Like, that was another word that came up in the context of Emma Misiman this year. That's. Jonathan reflected on that maybe she just didn't have enough time to fully acclimate. And so I would expect New York, really, especially in the first half of next year's regular season. Like, I would bet they're gonna preach that. Like, we need time to figure it out, figure out rotations, figure out playing styles, figure out again the adjustments we need to make and really try and be where we need to be come August or September or I guess next year, it'll be a little bit later. But basically, crunch time, the playoff push, that's when we need to be peaking. Because that was the other thing that you very much did not see from the New York Liberty this year. And they said towards the end of the season, that is finally when they got healthy. And players and Sandy both talked about, you know, we need to. We're finally figuring it out the week before the season starts. We're finally getting the opportunity because of health reasons to figure out our rotation and how we want to play. But obviously they were not peaking, and it's really hard to then Flip the switch. Right. Compare that with the Las Vegas Aces, who very much were peaking and, you know, we'll see how they continue to play. So I think they're going to use the regular season primarily as this testing ground and then they're going to hope that with the new coach, with a new staff, and with a lot of the same core pieces. We don't know exactly who's going to be back. But Jonathan also talked about, you know, wanting jj, Stewie, Sabrina. He had a lot of praise for Benija, Laney, Hamilton, a lot of praise for Leonie Feverish's toughness among other players. Like, I think we can expect some of those players back, if not all of them, that they'll coalesce at the right time and that experience of being in postseason moments together will pay off. It's a good question, though. And expectations obviously are going to be really high on whoever comes in. And also Jonathan going forward too, because he's made the change that he's made.

[Zena Keda]

Now, Ben, I know you're reporting on this, so you're going to be, you know, our intel and a more neutral side. I'm going to be with Sabrina over here. I think I'm also struggling with thinking that you're just going to go and find a coach off the market and capitalize on the talent you have on this roster in such a quick period of time. I had a friend of mine reach out to me and ask me, like, what is this? Like, is this because of the cba? Is this because of X, Y and Z? A newer WNBA fan, and I was like, I think this doesn't have anything to do with the cba. But I will say, I will say it is very clear that in the way that we just talked about the Minnesota Links playing Minnesota Links basketball, right? In the way that we've talked all season long about how quickly the Golden State Valkyries did what, cement an identity, right? There are certain teams that have done a phenomenal job of basically allowing, like letting the league know, when you play us, this is what you can expect. And the thing about it is, let's just be real. In the Sandy Brondello era, we did not know what that was. Other than you gonna play some All Stars, you're gonna play some really tough players that are really, really good at basketball and that's gonna be it. And yes, there's gonna be a lot of threes. They're gonna, they're not gonna do a lot of mid range game. Sure, we knew that. We knew that there were Gonna be like trees in the sense of the defense is gonna just be long and it's gonna be hard. But we don't know what's gonna beat you every night. Night. And who's gonna beat you every night.

[Ben Pickman]

It's funny you say that, because I was thinking a lot about this, that for a number of years, Sandy's favorite phrase was good to great. Paint to great or painting a good to great. She would mix up the way that it was phrased. And I was thinking about. I felt like on a daily occurrence I would hear that phrase. And then this year, I didn't really hear it much in the second half of the season. And part of that was because of injuries. But to your question about identities changing, like, I think they kind of got away some from, you know, what their identity was previously, and now they're gonna have to definitely redefine it with high expectations. And, you know, New York, going back to the point that, that you made Xena and I wrote about this too, like, they view themselves as a premier organization across all of all sports, all professional basketball. And you look at what's going on in the NBA, like, Frank Vogel was to coach the Lakers in 2020. He lasted just two more seasons than they fired him.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Not a good idea.

[Ben Pickman]

Mike Boonholzer, 2021 Milwaukee Bucks title. They fired him two years ago.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Ben Pickman]

Michael Malone coach.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Are these, like, good ideas?

[Ben Pickman]

I'm just saying, like, like New York views themselves as needing to capitalize on the window. And yeah, Sabrina might be saying these.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Organizations benefit from firing those coaches.

[Ben Pickman]

Well, I think that's true. I think that's a very good question. And what it leads to is who New York is going to look at. And for the people I have talked to is that they very much are likely to target coaches who have NBA experience or in the NBA. And so it will be interesting to see, you know, if they end up going that route officially with their next hire. Like, what does that mean? Or do they follow the trend that Sabrina has outlined that just swapping one NBA coach who has won a title with another doesn't necessarily result in a equal a title?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, Becky Hammond made this comparison to the New York Knicks because they obviously have their best season in 25 years or so, and they get to the conference finals and they're like, no, I don't think Tom Thibodeau is the guy. They fire him and have this protracted coaching search where it's unclear, like, who's even available, who wants to come interview for the job. They end up with somebody who, like. I like Mike Brown quite a bit. I think he's a good coach. I don't know if he's a better coach than Tom Thibodeau. It's hard to say. But you better have something in mind when you do something like this. Because if you just go out into the wilderness and think, we can find somebody better than Sandy Brandello. The history of the WNBA says there are not a lot of coaches better than Sandy Brandello. Two of them already employed by the Minnesota Links on the Las Vegas Aces. So I just. I really hope they have a plan. If you consider yourself a premier organization, you better have a plan.

[Ben Pickman]

Tibbs on Libs. Sabrina Tibbs is a great coach.

[Zena Keda]

That would be crazy. That's good. Get the shirts made right now. And there's also the fact, like, I'm still thinking about this player aspect. You just mentioned the New York Knicks. I was gonna bring it up from the perspective that Jalen Brunson had said he had Tibbs back. Who else would be better to lead us?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Stewie said. And Stewie said our girl.

[Zena Keda]

Right. And so this is a whole nother thing about just how this is also gonna play with immediately gelling with this team that is two years removed from a Finals, one year removed from a championship with a particular coach, and now having to move into another completely different regime. Now, the thing that you guys have been saying about this entire situation with Sandy Brandello is time. And this is actually a great transition to the other coach that we want to talk about. And this is Noelle Quinn in Seattle. She was with the Storm as a player and a coach for several years, and in five years was able to make four playoff appearances. Now, Sabrina, you could say, I mean, she had a winning record Overall, just over 50% in her time in Seattle. But some folks said she had too much time and not enough success in that time. Right. Why do you think it was time? I'm going to say that word a million times right now, for the Storm to let go of Quinn.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. So Noelle Quinn, about 4 1/2 seasons as the head coach in Seattle, she made four player appearances. As you mentioned, she won one playoff series during that time. A three game series in the first round in 2022 when they beat the Washington Mystics. Other than that, she lost a play in game to Phoenix in 2021 and then three playoff series to the Aces in 22, 24 and 25. So seemed to me like there was a hurdle she couldn't quite get over. They gave her plenty of opportunities to get over that hurdle with different teams. Right. The first one was Stewie Sue Bird, Jewel Lloyd team. Next one was Neca Skyler, Jewel Lloyd, Neca Skyler, Gabby. Like, none of those iterations managed to quite get over the hump. You're looking at a team where, like, they have players who want to win, right? Those are players, very veteran players in Neko Gumakay, Skyler Diggins, Gabby Williams, Ezzy Magbagor. Right. Like, they have won in other situations and they couldn't quite just get it done in Seattle. So this isn't a what have you done for me lately as it was with Sandy Rondella? This is like, have we done anything we wanted to do in these five years? And I don't mean that to, like, besmirch Noelle Quinn. Obviously, coaching is a very hard job. It's not her fault that this was the roster that she was handed versus some of the teams that she lost to. I think you could argue that all of the aces teams you lost to were more talented than the Seattle ones. Right. And that's not necessarily on Noel, but with all of the chatter, let's say, around the Seattle locker room, a number of people asking for trades out of Seattle, the fact that eventually you just have to win, like, none of those things happened. And I think four and a half years is a good amount of time for somebody to get a chance to figure that out.

[Zena Keda]

I'm with it. I agree. I think that Noel Quinn wasn't able to capitalize, as you mentioned, on all the versions of teams that were provided to her. That being said, there were aspects of her coaching in terms of her being a player coach. You know, we've seen what she was able to do with Dominique Malonga this season, for example. Right. Just being able to tap in to players that may have had some issues other places or hadn't found their footing in other places. And so I do want to give Noel Quinn that credit, but it wasn't enough. As you mentioned, winning has to happen. But there were other things, Ben. Like, I will never forget the. I think it was the schedule releases or I can't remember exactly what it. I think it was the schedule releases last year and where a team was like, making fun of the other teams around the association in their schedule release. And it was just basically like talking about the Seattle Storm just always having problems. Like, there's always an issue in Seattle. And we can't say that Noel Quinn was absolved of that. We know that there was this Jewel Lloyd situation let's talk a little bit about some of the things that were off the court that could have factored into Noel's situation and the decision to part ways with her.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, we should say that nothing, you know, the team in any of the investigations that they conducted never found anything substantive. I think, think what we should say too, and how this also compares to the situation in New York is their GM to Lisa Ria. She's never conducted a head coach search as the general manager before. Right. So if you're someone you know looking to make an imprint on an organization as a gm, you obviously can tinker with and control and maneuver the roster as you see fit. But another really important decision that you have to make is who are you hiring as a coach. And so Noel Quinn takes over. While we keep saying four and a half, she took over, I want to say five or six games into. No, what was it, the 2021 season when Dan Hughes, a long time WNBA coach, stepped down, retired mid season and Noel Quinn became the head coach there. But that's not a full off season search. Whereas Jonathan Kolb, this will now be the third coach he has hired since he assumed the GM role. And so, you know, if you're the Seattle Storms front office, like now really is your opportunity to make a hire that shapes the future direction of the franchise. And I think the question is, you know, and Sabrina started to talk about this too, is like what is the future direction of the franchise and how do they hire a coach to, you know, do you fo. Do you focus on one direction or the other? You know, you have players who like Neko Gumike and Skyler Diggins are in their 30s and then you also have.

[Sabrina Merchant]

In their 30s, 35, 35. I don't mean to age.

[Zena Keda]

We forget. We forget.

[Ben Pickman]

Understandably, a player like Dominique Malanga, who we saw how effective she can be in the postseason and in other sports in the regular season and she's 19 years old. Right. And so, you know, I know Xena, we always like to joke on this podcast about the two timelines warriors, but like, you know, it will be really interesting to see who they hire and how they approach this next iteration, who they build around. Because the other thing we didn't see a lot of this year, and I think this speaks to coaches generally is like we didn't see a lot of lineups. I want to say it's like less than 10 or 15 minutes the entire year of Ezzy Magma Gore, Neko Gumake and Dominique Malanga. And that's not to say that that trio would have been great together, but I think you want to see some experimentation so that in key moments, you know, does this work or does this not work?

[Sabrina Merchant]

They couldn't box out Jackie Young at the game end of game three. It's like that much.

[Ben Pickman]

There you go. And like, it seems like they just tried options out and eventually like those options didn't work or maybe they didn't try enough things out. And that's how you kind of get to the situation where you're looking for a new head coach, which is the Seattle Stormar.

[Zena Keda]

What's tough for me is on one hand, I'm like, yes, Noelle Quinn did have a lot of time. She did have a lot of talent to work with. So I can't be mad at that. You just talked about the. The two timeline. I have to say that with a shudder. But you just talked about the two timeline in Seattle. And I don't know anyone that had tapped into Dominique Malonga could like, so quickly. Like we saw the way that Noel Quinn. I did not talk to Dominique Malonga directly about this, but from what I could observe, she had tapped into her so well and built a relationship with her. So you're kind of like, let's give it one more go. Or maybe, you know, trusts that Noel Quinn can build on this. And it leads me into the conversation of the trust factor. Right. And how the trust factor changes in between organizations. Of course, the number one thing we're seeing right now, now that Noel Quinn has been fired from the Seattle Storm, there are no longer any black female head coaches in the wnba. The facts are the facts of that. This is a majority black league full of black women. And there is starting to. I don't even know if it's starting. It's been clear that there is a double standard for black women as coaches being able to be seen as players and being loved as players and being trusted as players, but not necessarily as leaders. And the main reason I think about this is Teresa Weatherspoon is still glaring. The one year that she got to work with a brand new team with rookies that that seemingly loved her and seemingly really cared about how she coached them up. We know that we've heard different stories since then, but one year and out, mind you, Tyler Marsh is in Chicago and I believe had a worse season than Teresa Weatherspoon had and still has his job. Chris Kahlanis still has his job down as Dallas and also had a significantly worse season than Noel Quinn or Sandy Brandello. And Even Teresa Weatherspoon. And so I'm looking at this and I'm like, I can appreciate that every organization has their own varying levels of trust, especially when it comes to the amount of investment put into their team. Right. If you have a lot of investment, a lot of higher ups keeping their eyes on where that money is going, you expect winning and you expect it quickly. So I can imagine there's a shorter leash on certain head coaching positions around the WNBA than there are others. But, but I'm talking about getting these women into position as players, into coaches, and then giving them the opportunity, trusting them, providing them the resources, and particularly providing them the space to make mistakes. It seems as if that has not been in large quantities around the wnba and not just this past year, not this past season or this season, not just this past season, but overall, we have not seen, I would say, a history of players coming in as coaches and getting a chance to really build. Noelle Quinn is one of those that got more time, but now she's gone. And I'm worried about what is the next door that's going to be opened for a former player into a coaching position, Especially a black female former player going into a head coaching position.

[Ben Pickman]

It's interesting that you say that because I actually had one GM around the league text me this week and basically say a lot of what you said. But focus on this idea that Christie Tolliver, who is a former player, a black player and a top assistant of the Phoenix Mercury, that Christie Saliver should be picky because as you're talking about Xena, a lot of coaches around the league right now, they're just not getting a lot of Runway to grow, right? They're not getting a lot of opportunity to have multiple seasons to learn. And someone like Christy Tolliver would be a first time head coach. Now Nate Tibbetts, you know, sings her praises, says she's more than ready to be a head coach and she's had opportunities in the past and she is someone who, you know, I think we hear her name floated in a lot of these openings. Someone like Brion January is one of the top assistants. Another former player actually played with the Seattle Storm, you know, sign there while Telisa rio was the GM in 2020, another top assistant with the Fever. We hear her name, I think she could make a lot of sense in Seattle. But like to your question, Xena, it seems like there is not a lot of opportunity for coaches, first time head coaches to want to grow right now. Now some of these contracts we should say are Often for two years, right. Or two plus ones with a team option. So that's not a ton of security. You just gotta be careful even if you're Tyler Marsh right now. Tyler Marsh was a top assistant a year ago. Like people sung his praises of what he could do. Well a year later it's like, you know, some people are calling for his job and is that fair based on their performance? Like, I don't know, you be the judge. But like he didn't have a ton of opportunity to learn and grow as a first time head coach. And so I think it seems like like they're going to give him that another opportunity. Not every opera coach is going to get that second year as you're talking about in the case of Teresa Weatherspoon or not every coach is going to get the third year or the fourth year in the case of Noel Quinn. So no, we definitely, you know, there's, there's a lot there that you throw out, Cena. But we are definitely in this moment where coaches are not given, you know, being afforded the Runway. And part of that is where we are in the league. Like people now really care about owners care about the WNBA in a way that they never have before and their team trying to be successful and they want to win as quickly as they can. And GMs feel that pressure too. And so that has also led to some of the changes, just macro sense, not even talking about the, you know, the other dynamics you talked about.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean we can justify every individual situation, right? Like you can justify why Noelle lost her job and why Sandy lost her job or why even Spoon lost her job. But the fact remains is like Xena said, there are no black women currently in head coaching positions. And that is a broader trend that I think is working worth like looking into. Because you said Tyler Marsh didn't get the opportunity to grow as a coach. Like he's getting the second year, Chris Colinis is getting the second year. Teresa Weatherspoon didn't get the second year. Right. And Latricia Chammell got two years after making the WNBA semifinals. Right. Like there's just, it's harder to find places where black women are given the opportunity to like continuously work on their craft, like get better at head coaching. Like we saw Chicago and Dallas like straight up say that they were not going to fire their head coaches, right? Like that's just a level of security that like some coaches are just not getting. Right. I think like I said, we can go through each case by case and like figure out why this makes sense in this particular reason, but it's just hard to distance it from the overall trend that's happening here. And at least, you know, thankfully, we still have a lot of foreign players in coaching positions, right? Like Becky Hammond, like Stephanie White, like, I guess, no longer Sandy Brandello. But that they're all white women is, like, not a great look for a league that is majority black women, Right? And I'm not saying that the WNBA needs a Rooney rule, but, like, the whole point of having the former players on the bench, like, adding an extra assistant coaching spot so that they could learn how to coach. It only works if you give them head coaching positions and, like, actually, you know, give them an opportunity to learn as a head coach. Like, it's great that every WNBA team wants to say they're casting a very wide net and, you know, making their search as broad as possible, but that leads to things like Rasheed Mezian coming in and taking a coaching job, or like, Nate Tippett's coming and taking it a coaching job. I get it. Like, Nate has done a great job, and Rashid, I liked a lot of the things he did in Connecticut. But you can't say that you're creating a space for former WMA players to have a stake in their league and want to help grow it. And then when you have the opportunity to grow the league, you look beyond them, right? And that's just. It's what's frustrating where, candidly, if I was somebody who was rooting for the Seattle Storm, I would not be disappointed that Noel Quinn was no longer the head coach of the Seattle Storm. But it's just, like, there's a broader trend at plays here. And it is gotta be really frustrating if you're somebody like Breon January or Chrissy Toliver or like, somebody who's in the league right now thinking, like, yeah, coaching is something I would like to pursue when I get older, but is there gonna be a place for me in this league as it, you know, like, it's. It's gotta be so frustrating that, like, my owners care more about my team now, but that means they don't want me to coach the team, right? Like, how stupid is that?

[Ben Pickman]

And to know that you might only get one shot, like, you might only get that one year or the two years, and if you screw up that one shot, whether that's, like, because you as a coach aren't ready or maybe because your team is not very good, that could be it for all that you have worked for to try and get to that point.

[Zena Keda]

And it just sucks because it's a trend that we're seeing in the wnba, particularly with black female players going into these roles. You just talked about the Rooney Rule, which was referring to the rule in the NFL ensuring that you're interviewing, at least interviewing a coach of color. I don't even know if it includes women in the interview.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think it's just a coach of color.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, okay, a coach of color. But I don't necessarily believe that, you know, a Rooney rule is necessary in the, in the wnba. But I would like to see. And Morgan Tuck kind of alluded to this in her experience coming up, being a player now being a GM in Connecticut, but just having been given the resources and the space and the tools to learn the business and to learn how she can become a leader on that side of basketball. And she talked about on our pod, how much she didn't know as a player going into the business side and the front office side. And I just wish that maybe that's something that the WNBA can implement. And that could be. Regardless of your background, male, female, white, black, purple, it doesn't matter. Everyone, you know, maybe you enact this through the cba, but everyone receives a certain level of coaching. Like the head coaches get an opportunity to get some sort of training or some sort of support to ensure that they know how to manage their locker room, that they understand how to, you know, whatever it is, some sort of summit that happens, I don't know. But it ensures that you're investing in these coaches so that they don't lose on their first chance, that they have to prove themselves and to make an impact in this league.

[Ben Pickman]

I like that you talk about kind of that investment because, you know, going back to one of the series that we are talking about right now is Stephanie White. And people have really sung her praises for how she's gotten the most out of this Indiana Fever team. And if you listen to Stephanie White talk, talk, she will talk about Lynn Dunn for hours on end. Now, she has known Lynn Dunn since she was, I mean, at least in high school. Like, Lynn Dunn tried to recruit her to Purdue. Back when Lynn Dunn was brief, you know, the coach of Purdue, Lynn Dunn coached her at the Indiana Fever. Lynn Dunn was her head coach and Steph White and assistant coach. And then when done stepped down or stepped away from the franchise, Steph White replaced her. This is in 2015 and 2016. Like, Steph White talks about Lynn Dunn, you know, all, like so much of how Lindon poured into her as A mentor in the coaching profession. And when you talk to coaches currently, like a lot of them also talk about not having those kind of stable, those mentors in the same way either because again, if you're a coach who's only there for two years or three years, like you're trying to figure it out yourself and you don't have the time to pour in maybe as much as you would want to someone else, and so you lose that, that mentorship aspect. You know, that's another problem when you talk to coaches about you know exactly what you're talking about too. Another offshoot of the dynamics we're talking about here.

[Zena Keda]

Well, I just want to wrap it up because you mentioned some names already in Breon January and Christy Toliver. We know there's Lindsey Harding as well, former players that have been coaching, whether it's, you know, in the NBA and the G League for Lindsey's case at least, or in the wnba as in some of these other players. There are people that are circulating, former players that could be in these positions for not only, you know, Noel and Sandy Brandello's job, but these expansion teams as well. Any other names, Ben, Sabrina that came up to mind as we're looking to next season and what, what roles could be filled?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean, I like the name Sonia Ramon. She's a New York Liberty assistant this past year. She has experience being a head coach at MIT and also was on the assistant coach coach of the Memphis Grizzlies. And she's known as kind of an innovative basketball mind. Worked a lot with New York's offense this year in their kind of special team, special situations. I think someone like that is someone like Sonia is a really good fit potentially in Seattle. To me, a coach who has experience working with star veteran players both from her time in the NBA and also the New York Liberty and also I think can get them the best out of the most out of a young player like Dominique Malanga. And so if you're Seattle looking to kind of play that two timelines game, I think she to me seems like a really good option there. I wouldn't be surprised if Toronto, when they make their choice, ends up going with a coach who has experience before, who has been a WNBA head coach before, whether that is a Sandy Brondello, I think that honestly makes a lot of sense. Someone who like Sandy, we know can shape a culture, has great relationships with players, is very well liked. Like to me she seems like a really good option to try and get a team off the ground. And create the kind of magic that you want to create. You know, I think those are two names that stick out to me for those two openings.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I think Ben had a lot of the names like some other former head coaches who could be in the mix. Like James Wade used to coach for the Chicago Sky, Leticia Chambell we mentioned, you know, former coach of the Dallas Wings. I think think could find her name back in these conversations. I also just like some of the other assistants we haven't really talked about, like grooming Christmas, Kelly, Austin, Kelly, I think have both sort of entered their name for head coaching conversations. Nola Henry was obviously a coach at Unrivaled. You know, if you're looking for a younger coach to maybe start something fresh with, like, that's a good name to keep in mind.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, well, let's see what happens. I do hope the wnba. Kathy, at this point we're friends. Girl, I done called you out on this pod so many times, good and bad. So hopefully you're listening to this. Let's set up a program, get these coaches on track and feel as if they are given that Runway that we've been talking about. We will see where the coaching carousel lands. I'm sure we'll hear some updates very soon. But now it's time for a fun game with Ben, who said it only Boost Mobile.

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[Ben Pickman]

Ah, really? Thanks. Capital One Bank Guy.

[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

Okay, Ben, you've got a fun game for us called who Said it? Presented by BetMG. Lock for every basket with this WNBA SGP boost token. Use your token on any WNBA SGP and you'll score a bigger payout if your SGP wins. I should have made you say this, Ben, because it is your game, but take it away.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, this is a game that is a play off of the actual Phoenix Mercury game that is going on this weekend because there was a piece of news that came out this week that the WNBA semifinals have forced the Jonas Brothers to move their Phoenix concert date. So the Jonas Brothers are on this tour? I don't know. Has anyone been to a Jonas Brothers concert on this tour?

[Zena Keda]

Xena Sabrina raises hand not on this tour, but I have been to a concert before.

[Ben Pickman]

Okay, well, the Jonas Brothers were supposed to play on September 28th on Sunday and guess what? They had to move to Monday because the Phoenix Mercury have a playoff game in Phoenix on Sunday afternoon. So. So on this game. Good for this game. This is a. Who said it? We got three rounds. Here it is. Who said it? I'm going to read out either a Jonas Brothers lyric, and I had to be pretty specific here, or a Diana Taurasi quote from her either during her playing career or as she makes this post retirement tour media tour that she is on. So it is either a Taurasi quote or a Jonas Brothers lyric. We got three rounds. Let's see how you guys do.

[Zena Keda]

All right, let's go.

[Ben Pickman]

Quote number one. And I'm going to be as flat as I can be when I leave him. Don't ask me to sing. The quote is, one day when I came home at lunchtime, I heard a funny noise.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Oh, That's Jonas Brothers. 100% Jonas Brothers. That's year 3000.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, year 3000. Right?

[Ben Pickman]

That is the opening line of year 3000. That is correct. I was going to try and get you. I was going to try and get you.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Maybe forgets what exact generation you and I are. Zena. Because that is.

[Zena Keda]

That is the song.

[Ben Pickman]

I know that is the song, but I was hoping to bait you into a Tarasi, you know, taking her kids to school. Now she's got time on her hand like she heard a funny noise. What's the funny noise that her kids would make? You never know. All right, number two. I go to sleep every single night thinking I'm not good enough.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Diana sounds like Tarazi.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Was this in her, like, documentary maybe.

[Ben Pickman]

Is that the final answer?

[Zena Keda]

Final answer. Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Tarazi.

[Ben Pickman]

Yay. That is correct. That is correct.

[Zena Keda]

Which is crazy, right?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Diana Taurasi, Come on.

[Zena Keda]

You're the logo imposter syndrome. Kick that out the window.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's real.

[Zena Keda]

It's real. But kick it out.

[Ben Pickman]

And our third and final round is a quote that says, why would you fight or try to deny the way that you feel?

[Sabrina Merchant]

That's a good one.

[Ben Pickman]

Okay.

[Zena Keda]

That is a very good one. The thing is, I think it's the Jonas Brothers.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think it's Tarazi.

[Zena Keda]

But. Oh, the thing is, I can see.

[Sabrina Merchant]

What you're talking about coming out.

[Zena Keda]

I know. That's exactly what made me think that she's saying that for either her or Penny.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Right. But I feel like there's, like, a Jonas Brothers song about, like, falling in love.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Of course there would you.

[Zena Keda]

Obviously. Right. I think I'm gonna. Okay. Serena, you say I'm going Jonas.

[Ben Pickman]

That is a Jonas Brothers lyric from the song Only Human. Only Human is the song.

[Zena Keda]

Oh, got it.

[Sabrina Merchant]

That.

[Ben Pickman]

That lyric is in.

[Zena Keda]

Well done. Bravo, Ben. Great game. Great game. Way to finish us out.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And ended this episode clapping for Ben.

[Zena Keda]

I know. Starting. Wow. Ben, way to come back. Way to come back to applauses. I hope you guys are all applauding in your cars or wherever you're listening. Ben killed it. Sabrina killed it. And you know, I'm gonna give myself credit. We killed it. We talked about games. And there's more games happening tonight. Cause both of the game threes of the semifinals will be tonight at 7:30pm Eastern and 9:30pm Eastern. So make sure you are sat for those. And Game Fours are coming up on Sunday. So figure out your Sunday plans because you cannot miss it. I don't know if y' all saw that picture between Afisa Collier and Alyssa Thomas. Game Fours are necessary, so be sacked. All right, we will be back on your feeds on Tuesday. We're gonna break it all down. And before we go, just one little programming note. We are gonna be doing our best to meet all of your finals needs this year. So not only will we be there in person, make sure you check out our socials. We're gonna have a little bit more content. It's gonna be fun. But we're also gonna be coming to you with a pod the morning after every game. So we'll usual cadence, but it's to make sure y' all get what y' all supposed to get. Okay? So make sure you tune in and you guys pay attention to that. Switch up. But wherever you're listening, if you subscribe, you won't miss out, regardless of cadence changes. So make sure you subscribe. Tell your friends about us, tell your family about us, and while you're at it, do your job. Give us a rating. We literally started the show with applause, ended it with applause. You have one more thing to do to applaud us and that is give us a five star rating. Drop a comment. We want to hear from you guys. And of course, Yahoo Sports Hub is calling your name. Sports.yahoo.com Womens Sports on behalf of the Athletic, Ben Pickman, Sabrina Merchant, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening and we will see you next time. No off season is hosted by Zena Keda with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and K. Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio, and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations. How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support available at amazonbusiness.com AI is transforming customer service.

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