Is Caitlin Clark Really Worth $1 Billion to the WNBA?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Is Caitlin Clark Really Worth $1 Billion to the WNBA?"

Released on July 11, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show, hosts Zena Keita, Chantel Jennings, Sabrina Merchant, and Ben Pickman delve deep into the financial and cultural impact of Caitlin Clark on the WNBA. The discussion not only explores Clark's monetary value to the league but also examines broader topics such as collective bargaining agreements (CBA), league expansion, media rights, and the evolving landscape of women's basketball.

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1. Caitlin Clark's Financial Impact on the WNBA

The central theme of the episode revolves around assessing whether Caitlin Clark is truly worth $1 billion to the WNBA. The hosts present various perspectives, drawing comparisons to iconic figures like Michael Jordan to contextualize Clark's influence.

• Ben Pickman highlights insights from industry sources and a Harvard economist, stating, “Caitlin is not worth close to a billion dollars to the league” ([16:25]). He underscores Clark's role in boosting media rights and franchise valuations, noting a significant 180% increase in WNBA franchise valuations from 2024 to 2025 (Sportico).

• Zena Keita emphasizes the synergy between Clark and other rising stars like Angel Reese, stating, “...receptions put her on the national stardom” ([19:55]). The hosts discuss how Clark's partnerships and endorsements, such as her $11 million deal with Nike, amplify her marketability beyond her WNBA salary.

• Darina adds historical context by comparing Clark's opportunities to past stars hindered by NCAA amateurism rules, explaining how recent changes like NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) have enabled current players to capitalize on their fame.

Notable Quote:

“In 2021 is when NIL is allowed for college athletes. So that's when the brands get to come into play...” – Darina ([19:55])

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2. Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) and Revenue Sharing

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the ongoing negotiations between the WNBA players' association and the league, particularly focusing on revenue sharing and fair compensation.

• Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman detail the complexities of the current CBA, highlighting that players receive only 10% of WNBA revenue. They discuss the proposed fixed revenue-sharing model, which players argue does not allow them to benefit proportionally from the league's growth.

• Zena Keita raises critical points about the cumulative revenue-sharing targets set pre- and post-pandemic, explaining the unrealistic expectations placed on players to meet these benchmarks. Darina elaborates on how the 2020 and 2021 seasons, disrupted by COVID-19, created a financial deficit that the current CBA fails to address adequately.

Notable Quotes:

“The WNBA is hamstrung by this...” – David Berry, Professor of Economics at Southern Utah University ([36:27])

“Why is it that if everything is booming, then why are salaries still the way they are?” – General Reflection by Hosts ([40:26])

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3. Comparisons with the NBA and Other Leagues

The episode draws parallels between the WNBA and the NBA, as well as other women's leagues like Unrivaled, to highlight disparities and potential pathways for equitable growth.

• Darina and Ben Pickman contrast the NBA's revenue-sharing model, where players receive 50% of basketball-related income, with the WNBA's more restrictive structure. They cite Unrivaled as an example of a league that offers players equity and higher salaries without similar cap restrictions.

• Zena Keita reflects on historic deals in women's sports, mentioning Cheryl Swoopes' $175,000 signature shoe deal with Nike and Maya Moore's partnership with Jordan Brand, illustrating the significant endorsements available to top female athletes today.

Notable Quote:

“...play in the W. Now let's break it down for our listeners...” – Zena Keita ([29:35])

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4. League Expansion and Ownership Investments

The hosts explore the implications of the WNBA's expansion and the influx of investments from NBA owners, discussing how these factors contribute to the league's financial trajectory.

• Ben Pickman discusses the substantial expansion fees, noting teams like the Golden State Valkyries have a $50 million fee, and new franchises are launching at $250 million. He emphasizes that these high entry costs indicate a strong belief in the league's profitability and growth potential.

• Darina highlights the strategic moves of NBA owners investing in WNBA teams, such as Mark Davis of the Las Vegas Aces and Joe Tsai of the Brooklyn Nets, who have seen their investments skyrocket in value.

Notable Quote:

“There is a reason why so many of these billionaires are getting involved in women's basketball...” – Ben Pickman ([52:13])

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5. Future Prospects and Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, the hosts express optimism about the future of the WNBA, contingent on successful CBA negotiations and continued investment in the league's growth.

• Zena Keita calls for immediate action to resolve salary and revenue-sharing issues to capitalize on the current boom, stressing the importance of fair compensation for players like Caitlin Clark who are driving the league's popularity.

• Ben Pickman underscores the necessity of transparent financials from the WNBA to bridge the gap between perceived revenue generation and actual player compensation.

Notable Quote:

“It is very much a business that they view as a profitable one in the long term.” – Ben Pickman ([52:13])

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Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with a reminder of upcoming content, including coverage of All-Star Weekend, and encourages listeners to engage with the show across various platforms. The hosts reiterate the significance of their discussions in shaping the future of women's basketball and advocating for fair player compensation.

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Conclusion

This episode of No Offseason provides an in-depth analysis of Caitlin Clark's immense value to the WNBA, framing it within the broader context of league finances, player rights, and the evolving sports business landscape. The hosts effectively combine expert insights, historical comparisons, and current data to argue that while Caitlin Clark's contribution is monumental, systemic changes in revenue sharing and league structure are essential for sustainable growth and equitable compensation in women's basketball.

Transcript

[Ben Pickman]

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[Darina]

Hi, I'm Darina, co founder of OpenPhone. My dad is a business owner and growing up.

[Zena Kada]

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[Darina]

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[Zena Kada]

Could go because he could not afford.

[Darina]

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[Zena Kada]

Hello everyone and welcome to no off season. I'm a Zena Kada.

[Darina]

I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Ben Pickman]

And I'm Ben Pickman.

[Zena Kada]

And today on the show we talking money, folks, particularly Caitlin Clark's money. Caitlin Clark's salary in the WNBA is $78,066 a year. But what is she really worth to the sport? We're going to get into it and the dollars are the sense of it all and see if it makes any sense. And we're also going to be talking about CBA negotiations, expansion, NBA ties, media rights and a whole lot more. But first we got to talk about a whistleblowing. Yes, throughout the WNBA season, we know people have been feeling away about the officiating. It's not anything new. We've also discussed that on this pod before, but it got a little bit louder and louder. And on Sunday night, the Sky's five point loss against the Minnesota Lynx, Angel Reese added her voice into the conversation. Let's hear what she had to say. Yeah, I think we fought really hard. It, it's tough when you talk to.

[Darina]

Officials and I ask them, hey, we only shot two free throw. We've only been to the free throw.

[Zena Kada]

Line twice up until the fourth quarter.

[Darina]

And she tells me it's not her job.

[Zena Kada]

So I know it's frustrating because I.

[Darina]

Know how hard we are battling inside and obviously we know we can compete.

[Zena Kada]

With the best, but that has to be fixed.

[Darina]

And I don't give a damn if I get fined because that shit cheap. And I am tired of this shit because I've been nice and I've been humble with it, but I am tired of this shit.

[Zena Kada]

All right, guys, if you guys watch that game, Angel's pretty heated and it was understandably so. I've been covering the Valkyries. I've seen Natalie Nakase get her first tech in her coaching experience as a head coach at least. And I understand that people are upset, but what do you think happened in that game that brought out this moment for Angel?

[Darina]

Well, I think the first thing is just the disparity in the number of foul shots this guy took relative to the Lynx. This guy took eight free throws and the Lynx took 17. And admittedly the margin is pumped up a little bit because it's a close game and you're fouling at the end. But, you know, more than double the amount of free throws is going to set off an opponent, especially when you're a player like Angel Reese, who does most of her work in the paint, right. Like this is where fouls get called, this is where you earn free throws. And so for, you know, angel to come out of that shooting single digit free throws when she's, you know, working so hard to create space in the lane, I think is mostly what led to that frustration. I mean, there are a lot of pictures that came up of her just getting like sandwiched by like Alanna Smith and, you know, another Lynx player. And there's, there's just a lot of contact being allowed. And I think we've seen just a general rise in frustration over the amount of contact league wide really, that's been allowed by referees this season.

[Zena Kada]

Oh yeah, I mean, we saw arms wrapped around her. It was, it was rough. But Ben, are we hearing any changes in the ways that, you know, officiating is going to be handled in the wnba? What's, what's word on the street regarding this issue?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, the Chicago sky would say they didn't even have a change between that game against Minnesota and their game against Washington earlier this week because they lost that game by two points. And afterwards Tyler Marshall said that basically two things can be true, that they both put themselves in a position to lose by two points to Washington. But at the same time, Marsh said to have a chance at the end was robbed from us. And basically what happened was 2.8 seconds remaining. Elizabeth Williams was called for a foul on Shakira Austin, a call that Chicago couldn't challenge and they were not very happy with. So to your question of are things changing? I would say the answer right now is no. Xena. Not for Chicago and not for other coaches around the league who continue to voice frustrations, you know, about, you know, crunch time foul calls about, I think technical foul and kind of flagrant foul enforcement has been something I've kind of heard and you know, heard been passing Comments from coaches about why they're called for technical. They're not really sure. Some people say they basically say nothing and still get texts. Like, again, we only get one side of the story on this, usually because we're only talking to players and coaches. We don't talk to officials in the same way we talk to that other party. But still, it seems like there are still the inconsistencies we've seen for years and the officiating complaints are, you know, don't seem like they're going away anytime soon.

[Darina]

Well, at least angel went from two free throw attempts to 15 in that second game, so some things changed.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah, well, I mean, it does feel like, you know, again, the conversation is being made by the fans. It's being made by players, obviously. You just mentioned Tyler Marsh. I've mentioned Natalie Nikase. Like, who else has been out loud speaking about just how tough the officiating has been to not only consume as a product, but to experience as a player or coach?

[Darina]

Well, I was talking to one unnamed general manager. It was an expansion discussion. And I was asking, just like, you know, about the league having the resources to sustain five more teams over the next five years. And they said, can we just fix reffing first? I was like, I mean, I wasn't asking for that.

[Zena Kada]

Facts though.

[Darina]

It is a topic of discussion.

[Zena Kada]

Okay. All right. So it's top of mind, clearly. So hopefully. I don't know, you know, do we think the commissioner's listening to us? Maybe. You never know. She could be a fan.

[Darina]

She's definitely listening to us.

[Ben Pickman]

Come on.

[Zena Kada]

Right. This is definitely an issue that we're seeing. It's. I don't know if it's going to go away until there are more refs, there are more formal trainings, et cetera. I know the players would definitely want it, but definitely something to look forward to, um, for the league to improve. But in other news around the wnba, Dewana Bonner, who was waived by the Indiana Fever a few weeks ago, she is now signed D D with the Phoenix Mercury. Are we all surprised? Probably not. We're going to see how that's going to impact this team, especially because this team is playing really well and really connected and flowed really well. So this is a new face. It's a new space that also demands a lot of attention. Dana Bonner is an awesome player and so fitting her into this ready scheme, I feel like she'll be able to play a good role, but it's just gonna be a matter about folding her in. Asia Wilson Left the Aces game against Liberty Tuesday night in the second quarter with a right wrist injury. Um, and you know, shout out to her team, holding up the towels, making sure that she was protected in that moment. I thought that was pretty cool. As of this taping, she has not had her mri, so we will see what happens there. And then on Wednesday afternoon, it was really Wednesday morning for me out here. That's why I'm in full face and makeup. Um, after five games of being out with a groin injury, Caitlin Clark suited up against the Valkyries for her first game back on the court. And it did not go well for the fever. They sustained a 19 point loss. And Caitlin Clark, you could see she was getting back. It was not the same kind of return you saw after New York. When she came back back from her injury earlier this season against New York was dropping crazy amount of threes left and right. I feel like those Sandy Brondello rules are really starting to play into the way that people are guarding car Caitlyn and making sure that she is, you know, tied up a little bit. But fever gonna have to iron out a few wrinkles now that she is back. And now all star teams are set. Ben slash Caitlin, Sabrina slash V. What do you guys think about these matchups?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, we saw Caitlin Clark got her Indiana Fever teammates. That was clearly a priority for her and she certainly checked that box off. I think getting Sabrina and Esku another really exciting pairing that I'm excited to see personally. Just like two lights out shooters pulling up from deep. I was a little disappointed that Caitlin had the opportunity to pick Paige towards the end of the starter section of the draft. And she admitted on the telecast that she was going to do the nice thing basically and let Nafeesa Collier end up with Paige. Two UConn connections. But I think it would have been fun to see Caitlin and Paige also play together, knowing that opportunity was sitting there.

[Darina]

Yeah, I appreciated Caitlin's commitment to actually trying to build a real basketball roster and realizing the size deficiencies of playing Caitlin, Paige and Sabrina altogether in a certain.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, who cares, Sabrina.

[Darina]

I think part of that was also in her mind when she did the nice thing and let's Nafisa halfpage. I mean, she obviously got her back and took Gabby Williams in the second round, so didn't let her have all the UConn girlies.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah, I love the little picture of the like pro husky baby husky photo. Nafisa Collier and Paige and you know, fee saying she can't wait to play alongside her very exciting guys go read the breakdown. The newser on that. There's a lot of different themes you see throughout these two teams beyond just the UConn connection or the Fever connection that Zach Powell and Sabrina broke down. Okay, when we come back, we're going to talk about Caitlin Clark a little bit more. Not about that Fever game against the Valkyries. No, putting that in the past. Just like I'm sure the Fever are, we got to talk about Caitlin Clark's value to the W.

[Ben Pickman]

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[Matt]

This episode is sponsored by the San Diego State University Sports MBA Program, a full time in person graduate program that trains students for sports business roles with team front offices, agencies, venues, brands and more. The program's MBA curriculum has all the numbers heavy content of a typical mba, but adds a sports focus by exploring themes such as growth of women's sports, labor relations, athletes rights and social responsibility. SDSU Sports MBA students study abroad for a week in the Dominican Republic to learn about the many ways in which MLB's presence impacts the country. Throughout their studies, students can gain experience as interns, consultants and part time employees with sports organizations throughout Southern California, including San Diego Wave FC. Applications are currently being accepted through July 1st for an August 2025 start, visit SDSU.edu no offseason to learn more and apply.

[Ben Pickman]

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All the parts you need at prices you'll love. Guaranteed to fit every time. Ebay. Things people love. With a new collective bargaining agreement or something. CBA around the corner. Franchise expansion. Exploding money is a hot topic in the WNBA right now, to say the least. And recently, my expert co hosts have embarked on a reporting mission to figure out, based on how instrumental she's been in so little time, just how much Caitlin Clark really is worth to the wnba, or at least to the world of women's sports in general. And how much should she actually be getting paid by the Fever? Because we know the 78,000 that she's getting paid right now in a rookie contract is not it. And it's important to note this not just for Caitlyn, because it does extrapolate to the rest of the league as well. This is what the players want to figure out in this collective bargaining agreement. They want their fair share of. Of the value that they've started to generate. And the one player that is so visibly a part of that generation is, of course, Caitlin Clark. So, Ben, Sabrina, let's start with that top line. What did you find? How much is Cece worth to the W? And, you know, all things fair. How much should she really be making?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, so we had one source, one industry source tell us that it's hard to believe that Caitlin is not worth close to a billion dollars to the league. And then we had another with a B, that is a billion dollars. We had a Harvard economist tell us kind of more broadly as it relates to her value to women's sports, that, you know, her overall value to women's sports starts with ab in the billions, for sure. And that kind of insight draws on, you know, significant increases in media rights and franchise valuations over the past couple of years. WNBA franchises, their valuations are up 180% from 2024 to 2025, according to Sportico. Look at, you know, franchise sales not just in the wnba, but across women's soccer. Right. As another big example, the facility investments that teams are making across the board, you know, new leagues like volleyball or what Athletes Unlimited is doing. Just the amount of corporate partnerships that are flooding into the women's sports space that all, you know, it's not all to be attributed to Caitlin Clark, but the kind of buzz that she has Helped to create, you know, has obviously helped increase the value of not just the W, but just the ecosystem in general. And that is why, Zena, I'm glad you kind of prefaced it. Yeah. This is nominally a conversation, I guess, about Caitlin Clark and her value to the WNBA and women's sports. But so much of what Sabrina and I tried to do in this story was to kind of get into the marketplace and the ecosystem more generally. Like, our reporting really tried to focus on, as you said, the CBA media rights deals, like, what is, you know, in some ways limiting women's basketball players the ability to make the money that they might be generating. We start the story in kind of an. We make an analogy to Michael Jordan kind of in the 1990s where there was this famous study in which two economists said that what was Michael Jordan's value to the NBA at that time? And someone said that basically Jordan generated more than $50 million to other teams, which is more than 120 million today. Just again, looking at gate revenue, national TV and local TV viewership and revenue. So, like, we're trying to look at it all in the course of this conversation, not just focusing on that one player from Indiana.

[Zena Kada]

Absolutely. Because it is a factor of like, yes, it's Caitlin Clark, but Caitlin Clark has to play against all these other people. And of course, when you think about Caitlin, you think about the skyrocketing of her story. You know, we think about Angel Reese that just covered the two. She's gonna be on the 2K26 cover. Right. This is another player whose market value has just exploded the marketplace. And when you think about all of the dollars to be had, Sabrina, in the marketplace, I think the number one people that are willing to spend money are the brands. And I can't tell you how many commercials I have seen with Caitlin Clark reading the bottom line at her optometrist from the logo, being able to say Sheboygan from her couch and the logo. Right. I think about that State Farm commercial that we've seen a million times. The Gatorade commercials that don't just feature Caitlin Clark, of course. They've got Asia Wilson as well. The commercials with Sabrina Unescu and the new the colorways that are coming out. I mean, there's so many different ways in which these players show up. The brands really have this job of pushing this forth and really pushing the consumerism tied to these players. So how are companies endorsements kind of putting a number on? Let's start with Caitlyn. But these players values overall well, yeah.

[Darina]

Just like back up on that for a second. I think the brand piece of it is so important because, you know, we've had really big women's basketball stars before. You know, you think about AR hitting two game winning shots back to back in the Final Four and she goes on this national media tour and is like on Ellen and Kobe surprises her and it's a huge deal. And she can't capitalize on that because she is an amateur athlete at that point. And the NCAA has a certain set of rules that define quote, unquote, amateurism. And you think about Sabrina Unescu and the draw that she had in her final season at Oregon. And you know, unfortunately that tournament is canceled because of the COVID pandemic. So, like there were big college stars coming up and Caitlin just sort of happens to be perfectly timed to take advantage of all of these changing elements of this marketplace, right? You think about in 2021 is when nil is allowed for college athletes. So that's when the brands get to come into play, right? That's when Gatorade and Nike and State Farm and all of these companies like Hy Vee and the local Indianapolis and Iowa City economies can throw money at her and actually use her to promote themselves. And that's when, you know, ESPN starts airing every single NCAA tournament game so you can actually watch them play. And we know when you put things on television, people are going to watch them, right? Like how hard was it to watch Asia Wilson in the tournament in her first early round games or Brianna Stewart when she was winning four titles for Connecticut? It's so much easier now. You can see every single tournament game on ESPN now. And then you add that with the Nil and the fact that it explodes in this Caitlyn vs Angel LSU Iowa game in 2023, that just rockets the sport and those two players onto the national stardom. I think there's just these factors that Caitlin was allowed to benefit from. The previous generations were not. And a lot of it is she could just profit off her own image and likeness, right? And that's what we're seeing now is these brands have a relationship with her already. And even as a second year player in the wnba, Nike's thrown all of this money at her State Farm, like you mentioned. I mean, how many times do we see the State Farm commercial? It is probably the most viewed commercial in my home, you know, for better or worse. I mean, the fact that we can say Sheboygan, that clearly is probably a good indicator of how often we're watching the State Farm commercial. But that's, that's a big part of it, right? Like, even if the WNBA can't, because of its own internal structures, pay Caitlin what she is valued to them, these other entities, like, you know, Ben reported last year about her eight year deal with Nike. I mean, in the 2024 calendar year alone, she's making $11 million reportedly from Sportico off of these endorsements. So there are other indicators that tell us like, yeah, Caitlyn is worth a lot to us. We will show her that money even if the wnba, because of its own constraints, can't do that. Right now.

[Zena Kada]

As you're speaking, I'm kind of getting chills because I'm thinking about, you know, Cheryl Swoopes getting, becoming the first woman with a signature shoe deal with Nike and that deal being worth $175,000. Right. I'm thinking about Maya Moore becoming the first woman to sign to Jordan Brand and thinking about what that deal could have been worth in today's age. And just again, the brand's really kind of pushing this number up. But there are so many other factors than just the fact that these players are really cool. We all want to be like them, we want to look like them, we want to play like them. And so we want to buy things associated to them. There's actually other elements of the ways in which these players drive money. And I want to talk about like this $1 billion number. Of course, we think jersey sales, we think ticket sales. But Ben, what else? What feeds into that billion with a B?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean one on ticket sales. I think first we should say that we had someone tell us that like Caitlin Clark right now is making opposing owners seven figures when she shows up. So just think about, you know, the attendance draw that the Indiana Fever are the amount of games that teams have relocated to bigger arenas. Just this week we saw the Dallas Wings move basically their second game against Indiana to American Airlines in downtown Dallas. Clark did not play in the first game. People still, you know, love the environment. People still filled it out. And now that Clark is healthy, presumably in the second half of the year, they're basically going to give it a second try, a second go around and hope to have the same kind of effect. Ticket sales, big one. The opposing arenas, big one. You mentioned it. Media rights, though, kind of Caitlin's role in media rights is a, was one of the big questions we had as we reported out this story. Because basically the wnba, you know, last year signed this new media rights deal that's worth around $200 million annually in their. What they're calling a tranche. One their first group of deals with Disney, ESPN, NBC, and Amazon. Just for context, the total value of the W's current media rights deal with all of its partners is around $50 million this year. So they signed this big deal that's worth around 200 million with these key partners. But in three years, when it goes into effect, actually starting next year, they're going to have this opportunity called a look, in which basically is a provision for the league to renegotiate their core deals with these partners. And so the big question we had is then, what is the, you know, what will the media rights deal be worth? You know, we did get some interesting responses from both people who actually negotiated the current agreement, other experts in kind of the media rights space who said, you know, it is hard to attribute a significant jump in Meteorite's value to just one person. But take all that aside, you know, WNB ratings, WNB ratings are significantly up in the regular season. A lot of these national telecasts, it seems like a weekly occurrence that, you know, we get a press release in our inboxes that says, you know, most watched game, second, most watched game, third, watch game, whatever. One of the big questions we have, though, I certainly have it, and I think Sabrina does too, is what will the postseason ratings continue to look like? Because for all the people out there who are listening, we appreciate you listening now. Continue to listen through the postseason and tell your friends to watch postseason games if you really care about the future growth of this sport. Because for all the boom in the regular season, actually the postseason WNBA ratings still lag a little bit, kind of by comparison. And so that will be a really interesting determining factor in this new media rights deal. And again, in this conversation of, like, how much is this new generation worth to the league?

[Zena Kada]

It makes sense. I mean, look at the timing of the post season. It's right at the top of football season. It's at the top of pre, you know, kind of preseason for NCAA and NBA. It's a busy season, and it's MLB playoffs as well. Um, so it. It makes sense that there's this confluence of all the things possible in the sports world to take your attention away right when you need the most attention on the wnba. So let's. Let's talk a little bit more about revenue. Oh, my God. If I could just have a conversation with the folks on the Internet that don't get the difference between revenue and profit. Revenue and profit. Folks. Remember Revenue is not profit. Money generated does not have anything to do with whether it's above the zero or below the zero. That's profit above the zero, not breaking even. You're above that. That's profit. Revenue is just money made, okay? That helps you get to profit, but very different. And the WNBA players are generating revenue. Profit is how the WNBA manages that revenue to get above that zero. And I feel like this is where things get a little bit interesting in how people perceive what the WNBA players are doing in terms of generating revenue. Now, a player like Caitlin helps generate a lot of revenue, but because it's not a. The league isn't as profitable, you know, that's where people are saying, well, these players like Caitlin will likely never make what she's actually worth playing in the W. Now let's get a little bit more into this because we've been talking about it lightly. We touched on it a little with Leija. We've been talking about it throughout. But now with this expansion team business, it's coming up even more. These.

[Darina]

The.

[Zena Kada]

When you think about the NBA ties that the league has that these teams have, and particularly, you know, a lot of people like to do the one on one comparison of what the the NBA players make versus the WNBA or how the NBA salary is structured versus the wnba. So let's break it down for our listeners. I am so excited for this because we, we need this, okay? In the NBA, NBA players get 50% of basketball related income or Bri, having worked at the warriors before on the business side, I know that that means that is money that the players directly impact. Ben, you just laid out a lot of those. That's ticket sales, that's merch sales, that's media rights as well. League pass, all these different things. These are the things that if the players do not show up and play basketball, you cannot make real money off of that. All right? You can't sell jerseys for players that don't exist and aren't playing. It's not a thing. Maybe in other countries, I don't know. But you can't do it here. People want to wear the jerseys of the people that play. Okay? So in the NBA, 50% of basketball related income goes to the players. That is not their salary. They get a salary for lacing up their shoes and putting a ball through the hoop or at least attempting to. Salary is different than the basketball related income that shows up because they just happen to be playing. And then 50% of that goes to the owners or that is not the case in The w. Someone explain what is the case in the WNBA in terms of that basketball related income split.

[Darina]

So first we should take one step back and just explain the ownership structure of the WNBA. So the NBA owns the NBA, right? That's 100% of the revenue from the NBA goes to the NBA. The WNBA. 42% of the WNBA is owned by what you would consider the WNBA, which is the owners of the WNBA. And 42% of the WNBA is owned by the NBA, which is those 30 owners in that league. The remaining, it used to be a 5050 split, but in 2022 the WNBA had a capital raise of $75 million that gave 16% equity of the league to the investors of that raise. So that's where we go down from 50% to 42% for each of those parties and then 16% for this investor group. Now that does mean that there are some people that are part of all three groups. Like you have people like Ted Leonis who owns the Mystics, who owns the Wizards, that's WNBA and, and is also part of the capital race group. Right? So there are some people who double dip in parts of these. But the point is, is that, that there are three entities, right? You've got the NBA entity, the WNBA entity and the capital race group. So every dollar that the WNBA makes first has to be split within these three groups. So we're already at a deficit from the 5050 thing because you know, 42 cents has to go to the NBA for 16 cents has to go to this capital raise group. Now we're left with 42 cents on this dollar. And even within that 42 cents, the players only get 10% of WNBA revenue. They're not even getting like half of that 42 cents. And that's because the WNBA has a different, let's say revenue sharing model within its collective bargaining agreement. It is not defined as a 5050 split. In the previous CBA 2021, it was an incremental revenue sharing model. So as the league hits higher revenue targets, the player is receive more a higher percentage of that revenue as the targets get higher and higher. The problem is it is a cumulative revenue sharing model. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Started in 2020. Now you might remember something happened in 2020 which was a global pandemic. And that means WNBA took place in a bubble season that year where you would recall there are no fans, so no gate revenue, no merchandise being sold at this arena. A lot of revenue, right? Limited sponsors, fewer games, so less TV revenue, all of that. They basically did not make Money during the 2020 season. They played a season just to exist in the sporting landscape so that they would not die out. Like Kathy Engelbert has basically said, it was an existential season. They have to play just so they could continue playing their season. This was not a money making operation. The next year in 2021, they're still mostly playing in empty arenas because of social distancing restrictions and things like that. So the targets that they were hoping to hit were just so woefully behind after 2020 and 2021 that all of the catching up that they've done in the past two and a half years has not made up for that deficit. So the WNBA players have not hit those revenue sharing targets.

[Zena Kada]

It's not only a cumulative revenue, it's cumulative on top of the fact that each year has to improve by 20%. So they have to almost basically do two years worth of revenue plus an extra 20% in each of these last three years to make up for what missed in 2020 and 2021. It's a losing game, y'.

[Ben Pickman]

All.

[Zena Kada]

There's no way that they can do this. And that is what the basis of this quote fair pay campaign is from the WNBA or the wnp, pba, the Women's National Basketball Players association, they want fair pay. They want this structure that Sabrina just so beautifully laid out because my God, I have tried and I feel like I talked for 10 minutes, you just perfectly laid this out where they want to relook at that structure and say, hey, we don't mind hitting benchmarks, that's fine, that's business. But can we hit benchmarks that make sense business based on the situations around us? Particularly if we have a Covid season and then a Covid light season the next year, can we look in and try to reassess restructure these benchmarks so that we can be paid based off of the revenue that we've generated? So now Ben, you laid this out earlier too. If the players want to make more with this new CBA and they have the opportunity to look at this structure and say, hey, we want to be a part of this revenue that we've generated, where's the additional revenue going to come from?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, the revenue structure right now really is seems to be one of the big hang ups in the ongoing CBA talks. And a bunch of players that I've talked with and other reporters recently have talked with have really brought this to light. So the WNBA recently sent back a proposal to the wnbpa and in it among the things that players have highlighted and we're talking Neca Guma to me, Kelsey Plum, Brianna Stewart, Asia Wilson, like heavy hitters who are very much involved and in the know, in these talks, what those players have said is that there was a fixed and small percentage kind of revenue sharing that the WNBA proposed and basically with kind of a fixed revenue sharing structure. And Neko Grimo put it very clearly, like the players in their mind would not actually get to grow with the business. Right. Because it would be the same percentage. And I should say we don't currently know that percentage. We have tried to get specific numbers in terms of what that percentage was or how much the league is taking off the top or even what the kind of general salary framework is. We don't have specific numbers, but these players have said that it's been this fixed percentage that will not basically grow over time. And so as a result, as the WNBA continues to grow and it is a safe bet it is going to continue to grow, if recent history is any indication. And if you want exhibit A for that, just look at the Golden State Valkyries $50 million expansion fee and the three teams that were recently announced having a $250 million expansion fee. And players are saying like, there's clearly money that is growing and there's no reason to think that that is not the case. And so players are saying that, like, why then should this revenue sharing system not grow and evolve as the league's revenue evolves? And so that seems to be a pain point in these talks. You know, Neko Grumman case said point blank to me and two, you know, two other reporters, Annie Costable, Front Office Sports and Doug Feinberg of the AP that like, you know, they want the league to be what it is today and more, they want it to continue to grow. But the players in their mind want to grow with. Want to grow with the league. And they don't think that is an unreasonable ask from their perspective.

[Zena Kada]

Not at all. I mean, it makes sense. If you're contributing to the growth. There's a reason why that 250 exists. It's because it's worth it. And the fact that they were able to find three people willing to pay that money without a team, without a.

[Darina]

Roster that were disappointed that they didn't get the bid.

[Zena Kada]

Right, that part too. Exactly. The teens in the cities that are waiting to be next in line. Right. Like there's value to be had. And so, yeah, an idea of a fixed number seems ridiculous. I had an off the record Kind of off casual conversation with a person that is a lawyer asking them about this, like in labor rights discussions, like. And a person that specifically has worked in the sports space. And they were like, this is something they cannot, the players should absolutely not budge on. Of course, in the last cba, you imagine why would something like revenue sharing get left on the table to be. To be a compromise, to be something that could be conceded. And you have to understand that in the 2020 CBA, folks like, they were battling for dignity as players. Right? We just talked about this with Leijah. They were battling for things for, for moms, for. For them to travel safely to their games. Like it was basic things to be able to just arrive as a pro athlete and be treated well and an opportunity here. They do not want to mess this up because they know their worth, they know their value, and that's why they're going to. To be, you know, really harsh about this. Satu. Sable even said this was a smack in the face. Whatever number they sent back, this was a slap in the face. So how are we likely going to see all of this come to a head with the new CBA that the players in the league are negotiating? Hopefully no more slaps in the face, but how do you move forward from that?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, they're going to have this meeting in Indianapolis between the players and the league where I think both parties, or at least the players certainly are eager to talk in person, knowing that often you can have more constructive in person conversations than you can over zoom. But it will be very interesting to see what comes out of this meeting because as you mentioned, Satus Abeli said what she said. Brianna Stewart said that she was frustrated. I talked to Asia Wilson earlier this week and she said that, she said it actually took a toll on me was a quote from her, oh, wow. Getting back and seeing the WNBA's proposal. In response, she said that quote, I kind of had to take a step back and observe if this is what we've been working for, working so far for. Right? Like, is this what we're truly being seen as? It just seems to continue to be a, you know, a moment of epiphany, a moment of reflection for a lot of players. And in the story, you know, we quoted this academic, David Berry, who's a professor of economics at Southern Utah University, and he says, quote, that the WNBA is hamstring by this, referring to, you know, kind of player salary conversations and also, I guess the revenue split more generally says the WNBA is hamstrung by this because if they tell this amazing story of what's going on in their league in terms of revenue, then they have to explain why the players are paid so badly. And that is kind of this dissonance that is going on, right, between the players, the public, and the league and the owners. It goes back to what we were just saying. How can everything, you know, be. That's obviously an exaggeration, but everything be a record? Merchandise, attendance, revenue, you know, TV viewership. How can all these things be booming and there isn't more money to go around? That seems to be one of the big questions. We don't have access to the WNBA financials. Those are not publicly accessible documents, though I sure wish we did. But that really is the kind of question at the core of this negotiation. If everything is booming, then why are salaries are the way they are? Or why will the new proposal be what they is? Why is fixed revenue sharing in this proposal? What's the percentage? Why is it not a different percentage? Why is it not a different sharing system? It all comes back to that dichotomy. If things are so great, then why are other things still not so great?

[Zena Kada]

That, folks, is what happens when you put your foot in your mouth if you're saying all this and then not allowing it to be shown through the numbers that the players that are contributing to that success. I mean, yeah, WNBA is definitely in a pickle if they don't figure this out. Now, before we close this out, I gotta ask. Sabrina. I've been hearing this. I know you've been hearing it. We've all been hearing it. This trope. Oh, the NBA subsidizes the wnba. So they're never going to be successful because they're going to always owe their big brother. Like why? Like what? Why is it beneficial to the NBA that these players and the association and the league figure this out and ensure that the players are properly compensated?

[Darina]

I mean, it's a business, right? And in theory, if you want your business to do well, you have to support all of your employees in your business and make sure that they're performing at their top levels, that they're not, you know, locking out and, you know, not. Not playing games for a certain amount of time, right? Like, a work stoppage would obviously be incredibly detrimental to the overall business of the NBA and the wnba. The thing is, like, the. The relationship between the NBA and WNBA is incredibly difficult to parse because the leagues started as brother and sister leagues, right? Like every team was under the ownership of an NBA owner at the start those eight teams and that model dissipated around 2003, where you started to get private ownership groups. I believe the Connecticut sun were the first one. We've seen a very successful private ownership group in Seattle and Las Vegas that are independent of NBA teams. But there is still a lot of intermingling because so many teams are owned by their NBA owners as well. And the league, as we mentioned, is owned so much by the NBA, and so much of their operations is commingled between the two. Likes you email WNBA officials, and they have email addresses that say ba.com, right? Like, everything works with one another. So the NBA is economically invested in the business of the WNBA. They quite literally profit, you know, 42 cents off of every dollar, or I should say they get 42 cents of the revenue of every dollar that the WNBA makes. Got to make sure to distinguish that. But how much they actually invest in the operations of the league is really kind of unknown. Right. Like, when we were talking to economists about how to parse through the revenue and where all this money is going, you know, one of them said, like, I can turn a $4 million profit into a $2 million loss on a balance sheet, and every economist in the country would agree with me. Like, you can finagle these numbers however you want based on what you consider operating expenses. Right. And if Adam Silver goes out and says WNBA is losing $10 million a year, he could probably prove that even when the WNBA is generating revenue. Right. Like, it's all a matter of how you itemize what is going into the operations of the business and what is coming out. And unfortunately, we just don't have access to those balance sheets. Right. Like, we don't know exactly how much the NBA is putting into facilities or infrastructure or personnel at the legal level, how much of that is coming from, you know, the league level, how much that is coming from the owners themselves. Right? So that's. That's the tricky part with this, right? Like, anybody can make their story work if they want to if they sell the narrative the right way. But I think if the NBA is really invested in making the WNBA work, it probably behooves them to paint it as a slightly more successful business. Unless, of course, you're at the negotiating table with the players association and want to cry poverty so that you can say, oh, we have nothing to offer you in this particular instance.

[Zena Kada]

Right? Right.

[Ben Pickman]

We should say, like, that tactic. Or, you know, that phrasing that is common across all sports, like what Sabrina mentions about flipping a big profit into a deficit. Like, I Think it was actually a major league baseball executive. I want to say it was with the Blue Jays, who kind of first coined that phrase or used that phrase because it can be applied in baseball labor context, hockey labor context, all across all sports. But what is so interesting, not just that there is an ongoing negotiation now, but this time in women's basketball, is that there's actually another league that doesn't have the same kind of collective bargaining restrictions. And that is unrivaled. And I think we should mention that as we, you know, continue to flesh out this conversation too, because unrivaled, you know, players last year received an average of more than $200,000 in salary for a 10 week season, but they also received equity in the league. And so it really is a league that is kind of, again, co founded by players in Brianna Stewart and Nafisa Collier. And again, players are all owners invested in the league. And we heard a lot of players throughout the season talk about that investment making a difference, that they all wanted to make it succeed. Not just because they wanted to make it succeed, but also they were financially motivated to make it succeed. As it relates to Clark, kind of bringing it a full circle a little bit. Like we had someone make the point that, you know, she wanted to receive the maximum amount of value or the closest salary to what she is worth to a league. Well, maybe unrivaled is the place to do that because that is a league that is a context that does not oblige by salary cap restrictions. And we should say the WNBA is currently a hard cap league. That factors into, you know, why the salaries are the way they are. Caitlin Clark can just make whatever, you know, the league executives at Unrivaled deem she is worth and want to pay her. And that is true not just of Caitlin Clark, but that is true of all players across the women's basketball space. And if you think about what unrivaled did as they actually doled out salaries, like they made these choices, like they kind of engaged in the exercise that Sabrina and I were trying to report out. They tried to see, okay, what is a player worth, right? What is their social media presence, how much do brands engage with them, who are their partners, you know, how much merchandise do they move when they are on basketball cards? How do the basketball cards, you know, sell when they play in WNBA games? What are the WNB's viewership like? These are some of the factors that they looked at as they were putting together and figuring out these agreements with players. They then did that and they also offered them equity. It's why, you know, it is such an interesting. It's not the opposite of the wma, but it's just interesting that players have this alternative in this moment that there is such an important negotiation going on.

[Zena Kada]

Absolutely. I can't directly pinpoint Sephora's presence in the WNBA this season directly to unrivaled, but I'm gonna just say I hadn't seen Sephora in women's sports really before.

[Ben Pickman]

They had not been seen. They had not been.

[Zena Kada]

Yeah, there we go, right? The Sephora refs. I mean it was so brilliant, so brilliant to turn zebras into Sephora bags, basically. And now you're seeing them all over the Sephora Performance center, of course, with the Gold State Valkyries, their big deal with the New York Liberty. Like they're so. They're, they're everywhere. You're seeing them all over the W. The last point, I'll say on the subsidizing. I think there are several folks that think about the, the NBA subsidizing the WNBA in the way that you may have remembered growing up. There were kids that may not have been able to afford their school lunch and, and the county subsidized it or maybe there was like a really big field trip and it was really expensive for students to be able to go. And so the museum or wherever you went subsidized it. Those were charitable acts. There was no real investment or return for them other than to be able to provide a child with the opportunity to do something, have something that they couldn't have. I love the NBA. Their charitable arm is the foundation. Okay. That's where they do their charitable works. This is not a charity when you think about business, a subsidizing, it's subsidiaries. The number one example I can give to close this out, Microsoft subsidized Xbox for years. PlayStation subsidized their console, what is that, the PS5. All the PS's. Because the consoles as a product were too expensive to pass on the cost to the consumer. The actual hardware was so expensive. And so they subsidized the cost of that hardware by 100 $200 so that it was easier for the consumer to buy. Why? Because they knew that once they had the hardware, Microsoft PlayStation could make up the subsidization of that product in the games, in the headwear, in the entire ecosystem around the hardware. Same thing with the NBA and the wnba. A lot of these things are subsidized, whether it's the gym, whether it's the operations Whether it's teams sharing personnel, that's fine. They're gonna make it up on top with the ticket sales, with the merch sales, with all the other things. And so I think that's what we have to remember. It is still a business, folks. And so it definitely. I love the way Sabrina put it. It behooves them. Well, okay, sat word.

[Ben Pickman]

It's not a. It's not a fluke, too, that you see so many of these NBA owners wanting to invest in WNBA teams. Right. I have a story that just went up on the site earlier this week about what will be different in Detroit and Cleveland this time around in the 2.0 version. If you think about Gordon Gunn, he was the original Gordon Gunn. He was the original owner of. Of the Cleveland Rockers, right? And so basically, original franchises in the W were also owned by NBA owners. A lot of original owners in the NBA basically got in because they were told it was, like, the right thing to do. And there was a time in which the wnba, you know, was on life support, like, was trying to figure out, will it exist, will it sustain. You know, I had LA Sparks GM Reagan Plevely. She played for the Rockers in 1998. She told me, like, there was that period of time where people felt it was the right thing to do. But now people realize this is a business and the intention to be profitable is a focus as well. Right. There is a reason why so many of these billionaires are getting involved in women's basketball because they recognize that there is a high potential for a significant return on investment. You know, Mark Davis, who owns the Las Vegas Aces, he also owns the Las Vegas Raiders in the NFL. He purchased the team, what, in 20, I want to say 17, 18 range for. We're talking single millions of dollars, right? Sabrina Something 2021, okay, 2021, he purchased from MGM for single millions of dollars. They had already moved, you know, from Texas to Las Vegas, I guess, in 2018. Now that team is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Claire Wu Tsai and Joe Tsai, the owner of the NBA's Brooklyn Nets, they purchase that franchise, I think reportedly around in the. We'll say low tens, like I want to say 10 to 10 to 14ish millions of dollars, that franchise. And I reported this earlier this spring, this summer, you know, they sold a minority stake in the team at a $450 million valuation. They expect to be the first or they hope to be $1 billion franchise, probably not too long. You know, in the2030s, they could be that that's a significant return on investment. Like there is a reason why that these owners again, Dan Gilbert's an NBA owner. Tom Gores, who is now the WNBA Detroit owner, also owns the Pistons. There are all these NBA owners who want in because they see it as an opportunity to put a little bit in and know that in a couple years time that value, that investment is going to be much more. It is very much a business that they view as a profitable one in the long term.

[Zena Kada]

I mean, if you are an owner that owns your arena, you don't think you want to put that to use during the summertime. Like I mean this is if you guys hear me, I don't know if our producer is going to just cut my heavy breaths that I keep having as Sabrina and Ben kind of lay this out. I promise you it's not because I'm frustrated with them at all. It's because I am frustrated that this message and how they're beautifully laying it out hasn't been I think clearly laid out to everyone as to why this makes sense and also why it's so pertinent to get it done and get it done now in the midst of this boom. It's so important to rectify this before it gets too far gone. Ben, Sabrina, oh my heart is happy. My little business heart is happy. I appreciate you guys doing this story and as we we started this, you know, of course it's around Caitlyn because she's the most visible component of this story, but it's so much deeper than that. Of course there are tons of players that are involved in this revenue push and why the value of this league, the value of this space, the value of women's sports is pushed by these individual players coming together and that's why they got to come together and figure this out out. We'll keep you posted on everything CBA keep talking to us, ask us questions on social media about it because as you can tell I'm a little passionate about it. And you know, Sabrina and Ben definitely have their comments on their stories open. Check it out on the site.

[Matt]

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[Zena Kada]

This.

[Darina]

This is Car Tracks with Turtle Wax. Your car says a lot about you.

[Zena Kada]

So if we asked your car what.

[Darina]

It would say about you, what would it say? Listen, you dropped one of those tiny.

[Zena Kada]

Cheeseburgers under the seat like last week.

[Matt]

And now we're both dry heaving the stench.

[Darina]

Do us a favor, grab some Turtle Wax and let's get to this has been car tracks with Turtle wax.

[Zena Kada]

You are how you car. All right guys, it's Friday. That means it is time to set your screens. Presented by BetMGM. Make a fast break for encore action with the WNBA Odds Boost token. Use your token to get a bigger payout on a winning WNBA bet. All right, y', all, I'mma tell you what I'll watch first and I'm gonna ask you guys what games you're getting into this weekend. So at the time that we're recording this, the Connecticut sun just beat Seattle by 10. Tina Charles went off for 29 points and 11 rebounds. Her UConn youngen Olivia Nelson Adota added a little bit more 16. Just. I mean I'm looking at Seattle like how what happened? What's going on? Well, don't worry. At the time this show is dropping, they're going to have an opportunity to play again. So very interested to see how that rolls out. And then of course, Golden State taking on the Aces this time at their house. But still on national television. We know what happened when the national audience was watching this game last time. So I'm trying to see what the Aces are about in redeeming themselves. What games are you guys watching?

[Darina]

Well, maybe it's because of all the Caitlin talk, but I am interested in Dallas, Indiana on Sunday. You know, Caitlin Paige, crossing our fingers for the first time. I think that should be a good one.

[Zena Kada]

Oh yeah, for sure. What about you, Ben?

[Ben Pickman]

I'm interested in Atlanta and New York on Sunday afternoon. The dream, you know, have some big games coming up. They will play Indiana on Friday and then they will play New York, who is looking to continue to build some momentum on Sunday in a very big game. Can I also mention too Xena, for all those going to that game in New York, there is a really great public art installation right outside of Barclays Center. This famous artist. Yeah, there's an artist.

[Zena Kada]

What is it?

[Ben Pickman]

Latoya Ruby Fraser is her name. She's a famous artist. And basically it is a series of portraits that the Liberty and her kind of work together to commission. Put out these nine foot pillars that on one side is a portrait of each of the players from last year's championship team. I think there are two more still in the works. And on the other side are personal photos, family photos with chosen family players and family members as well as like accompanying essays and testimonials that, you know, in some cases members of their family actually wrote. And they're incredibly personal. The essays are very good. They're short and the art is just right outside the arena. So give yourself a couple extra minutes. I think it's the first of its on time kind of project. It's a very cool project just to walk around, see it. If you're around Barclays center at night, they're well lit. You can read them then, too. Yeah, give yourself a couple extra minutes. If you are going to that game to check out what is in front of the arena.

[Zena Kada]

I love it. All right. We're talking hoops, we're talking business, we're talking culture and art. I love that. And I did see some glimpses of that installation. I'm very jealous of those that are going to be able to get to see it all in person. So definitely take a moment to stop by that. Thank you, Ben. All right, guys, that is all we've got for you today. Next week, ahead of All Star Weekend, we've got a special week planned. We will have an episode dropping every day from Tuesday to Friday, so get ready. Charge those AirPods. Make sure your headphones are good for the gym. You've got one every day between Tuesday and Friday. And as always, before you go, if you haven't already, please follow our show. Follow it on pod. Follow it on the YouTube. Wherever you are right now, follow it. We want to look like we're cool because we are. Did you not hear this conversation we just had? Like, we're so smart and we're helping everybody understand things. Like go follow it so other people will follow you because you're a cool kid. And that's what it's about. Okay, You're a cool kid. All right. Now we also want to make sure that you guys head on over to our partner Yahoo.

[Darina]

Sports hub.

[Zena Kada]

More content sports.yahoo.com women-women-sports Whew. Every week is someone keeping a tally. I don't know how I do on that every week, but I think I'm on the winning side. Anywho, on behalf of the Athletic, Ben and Sabrina, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening and we will see you next time. No off season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio, and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.

[Darina]

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[Darina]

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[Zena Kada]

This is a great deal. Exactly.

[Darina]

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[Zena Kada]

Fine.

[Darina]

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[Ben Pickman]

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