← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Is Longevity in the WNBA About Talent, Health, or Both?
00:57:43
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- [00:00]
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Laysha Clarendon
Weather, traffic.
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- [01:33]
Laysha Clarendon
One of the biggest wins of the CBA and players getting paid is that they can stay home now they don't have to go abroad to like make decent money and live is like the deep breath that that sigh that that gives me to one think about their health. Like this was something player health, safety and wellness was something we've just preached throughout my entire time being a part of the executive committee and the fact that now they can stay home so their bodies are not being abused abroad with the travel, with the games, with having to be the ste their team essentially when they're playing. You gotta be the man when you go play for your overseas team. And then also to your point Sabrina, like when people are healthy you get to develop like the actual talent and skill level of the game improving because so it's been so hard to develop talent in the WNBA because we've just played year round. Hello everyone and welcome to no offseason. I'm Lazia Clarendon.
- [02:27]
Annie Costable
I'm Annie Costable.
- [02:29]
Sabrina Merchant
And I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [02:31]
Laysha Clarendon
And today on the show we're talking about what does it take to have a 10 to 15 year career in the WNBA. I would know a thing or two about that. Thank you. Blitzhair. And why do some players make it that far? Why others don't? Yes, talent matters. So does health. In the light of some early season injuries and health concerns, we're taking a much closer look at how injuries, recovery and long term health can shape a player's career. I particularly have some thoughts on players ability to stay healthy. And can we call people a goat or star player when they haven't quite played in enough games? I have some thoughts on that but first let's rewind to Wednesday because we're all out covering games across the league with our amazing squad. Sabrina, you're in LA at home covering the Sparks home loss to the Fever, 87 to 78. Sparks are still winless and the Fever are 1 and 1. What's the vibe around the Sparks right now?
- [03:24]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so I've been at three games so far this WNBA season and all three have been very demoralizing losses for the home team. So I feel very good if you're trying to, you know, win some games, get me out covering your road team. But yeah, I mean the Sparks, we talked about this all off season, right? Like they had an incredible offense last year, equally unincredable defense and the hope was just to get the defense a little bit better while keeping the offense where it was. I don't think anybody expected the offense to be as bad as it has been to start the season. Like everything is getting going in isolation. They're not really creating actions through screening. Like there's no flow right now. I mean that's why you see situations where you know Ray Burrell gets zero first half shots in the game against Vegas and then all of a sudden she's taken 10 shots against Indiana while Neko Gumike is taking five shots. Like the balance is just all out of whack. They only took 15 three pointers against Indiana compared to 16 mid range shots. Like that is antithetical to Lynn Roberts is like personal philosophies. So the, the system just hasn't implemented yet. Like I think that's the clearest way of describing this. They are not playing offense the way they're supposed to be playing offense and we can talk about the defense all we want. I don't think it's going to get like dramatically better over the course of the season. Like the whole point is just to get passable, right? But a passable defense only works if their offense is firing like it was last year.
- [04:39]
Laysha Clarendon
Exactly. If you're going to be all star
- [04:40]
Annie Costable
level offense also just have to add to this. And I only caught the tail end of the game. When you consider how poor the Fever's defense is to have the offensive performance that the Sparks had, I'm like, that was my big cause for concern. And what we were talking about in the chat too. I like the what again, right?
- [05:02]
Laysha Clarendon
You're not playing one of the best defensive teams.
- [05:04]
Annie Costable
Right.
- [05:05]
Laysha Clarendon
You're not playing the Atlanta Dream. Yeah. Rockers. Right. You're playing a team you're supposed to score on. Okay. We could go so far into LA again, but we'll keep it moving so we get to the juicy, juicy stuff. Annie, you were in Connecticut. You were at the Aces sun game. Aces ran away with it. 98, 69. Was there anything that stood out to you in that matchup?
- [05:24]
Annie Costable
Yeah, I mean, Kennedy Carter, period, she's back in the league and doing what Kennedy Carter does. And the one point of emphasis that has been recurring with the Aces, specifically Becky Hammond, is, you know, letting Kennedy find her rhythm within this team. And Becky last night was really emphasizing after the game that her defensive effort is, is where she wants to see Kennedy shine. She wants to see, you know, this fire on both ends of the court. Cause obviously we all know she is unmatched when it comes to getting to the rim. She's one of the fastest guards, I would say, in basketball, but defensively, in basketball history. Yeah. Honestly, like I'm gonna say in basketball, like, let's just say like in the world, Kennedy is one of the fastest humans with a basketball in her hand. And so we saw that 27 point performance from her. But on top of that, she gets two steals, five defensive rebounds. So I think for her it's, it's building the trust within that organization, finding her rhythm on both ends of the court. And I think yesterday was, was a step in, in getting that done.
- [06:45]
Laysha Clarendon
Yeah, I love that Cap. Like Kennedy Carter reminds me so much of Cappy Pondexter and I think that's like a player that I love. A good comp regardless.
- [06:54]
Sabrina Merchant
But her crossover shout outs on this
- [06:57]
Laysha Clarendon
podcast this week realizes so many, yeah, like her Cappy's quickness and her crossover, like I think of Simone Augustus, I think of like some of the best crossovers in the league. But even Simone's was specific to that. Like right to left. You knew what she was going to do. Like Cappy's was shifty in a way. That you really could get your ankles broken. Like, you could scout Simones a little better still. You were gonna get scored on. But Cappy had that level of like, yeah, it's so reminiscent, like having played both of them across generations, of playing Cappy at the back end of her career when I was young and then playing against Kennedy, Carter was like, I'm a post you up, kid, because you're gonna cross me up out there. But just that shiftiness as a player that, like, yeah, it's. I agree with you. She's one of the fastest ever to do it. And, Annie, give us some updates. WNBA and the NBA Board of Governors have approved the sale of the sun officially.
- [07:49]
Annie Costable
Yeah. So this is something we obviously have all known about for some time. The news broke. When was that? Back in March, that the sale was official. It just needed to be approved by the Board of Governors. And prior to even that news, you know, I had been reporting back before I joined the Athletic, but you guys had been reporting as well. Mike Borkman on the fact that, you know, Houston was likely the landing spot for the Connecticut Sun. So now that the Board of Governors has officially approved the sale, it's just, you know, the next step in this sunset season being, you know, the reality, and what I can say is the vibe in Connecticut is interesting. It's on the one end, you have this celebration of a franchise that accomplished so much history in this league, but that on the other end of that, you have heartbreak and disappointment and anger, really, over what's going on and how this all happened. Because for the fans here, and I was able to talk to a few and, you know, we'll keep doing some reporting on this, and we'll have a story on. On this soon, hopefully. But the reality for fans is they see a franchise that had the potential to stay, you know, in New England, and that ultimately didn't happen. And the league continues to emphasize we have sole discretion over relocation of franchises. Right. We all hear you on that. We understand. But what fans are witnessing is two options to keep the team on the east coast. And the league just didn't care about seeing those things through. So I think there's a lot. There's a mixture. And even from Jen Rosati herself, the president of the sun, you know, it's this acknowledgment of, okay, this is great, the Comets are coming back, but at the same time, here's what's happening here, and kind of making peace with multiple things being true at the same time, which is something I think we as humans could do a better job of overall.
- [10:13]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I mean, you mentioned keeping the team on the Northeast. Like they also would have made more money in the sale reportedly for these other groups than the one that's selling to Houston. And you think about what Connecticut has meant to the WNBA being one of the original standards for an independent ownership group. When that model changed and now we're just in an entirely different era of the league where it's NBA, NBA, NBA. The group that ultimately got the team is a Houston Rockets organization that is in the NBA. So yeah, I can understand why the fans feel a certain way about it because like, Connecticut meant a lot to the WNBA because of the standard that they set, even if that is no longer the standard that the WNBA is chasing.
- [10:48]
Annie Costable
And if I can add just one more thing to that point, Sabrina. The back when expansion was set to be announced and these three expansion teams were announced in Cleveland, Detroit and Philadelphia, prior to that, there was a conversation and I reported this. Mike Vorkanov reported this. I believe others reported this as well. But I can say between myself and Mike that that Connecticut, there was internal dialogue between this franchise and the league on would it be possible to sell this franchise, Connecticut to the Cleveland ownership group. And had that happened, the theory, in theory, that would have opened up expansion to go to Houston. So in theory, that would have then made Detroit, Philadelphia and Houston the expansion teams. Ultimately that didn't progress. You know, I've reported that the, the Connecticut sun were told that they could receive a higher value if they took the sale to market, which they ultimately did. But that's where this other layer of oh, the intention was for the league to get a team to Houston in the immediate future. And here is how they made it happen. And so it's a very layered, interesting situation that I don't think will go away just because the board of governors approved this. This is a big business story. This is a big story because it's also relevant to your point to the changing ownership landscape in the WNBA and the future of, of the league. So it's definitely going to be something that, that remains like center focus the entire season, I think, and beyond.
- [12:37]
Laysha Clarendon
And this is part of that, like the league growing to a place where we're in the big leagues now and we're starting to see some of those moves that the league is going to make. And I think to the point any of like, not that they need to apologize for it, but not just sticking to the party tagline like actually honoring the Connecticut fan base and the Reason why they're moving. We get it for the NBA ownership, but also not being like, sorry, yeah, we have sole discretion. Like, they're gonna stick to their tag. They're gonna stick to their tag. But in the meanwhile, there's fans who showed up for years and years. And Connecticut has had one of the most consistent fan bases over decades in this league. And they've showed up for us back when people weren't necessarily feeling arenas. And so I do, especially having played there, I've said this before, really feel for those fans and the way that they've showed up and now that like someone's joy is someone else's misery and like heartbreak. Like that's kind of sports in a nutshell. Like March Madness, someone's championship is someone's final four run is someone heartbreak. And so it is also sports. But I really do just feel for the fans. So love you guys in Connecticut. Thank you for everything. We're going to keep it going. I was covering the Storm game against the Tempo Tempo got their first ever win. Storm lost 8673 and that game was okay. My big takeaway from that is one. Seattle's got to guard the three point line. It's like they haven't seen some of. There are some foreign players, right, that like I get her coming into the league. You don't necessarily always know their games, but generally we know Marina Mabry. Everyone knows Marina Mabry. She's a hot pocket. She went six for 10 from the three point line. So Seattle was just a hair short in guarding and now they're going to play Indiana next game. So it's like another chance. Step up to the line, you got to rebound, you got to guard three point line. But my really big takeaway from the Seattle game was I'm ready for the one on one battle between Flaje and Sykes. Like I needed an unrivaled. I'm calling it, I'm putting it out there. I tweeted it, I threaded it at them. Please give the people what they want. Because during the game we had that like, you know how in a game you get the internal one on one battles happening within the. Within the five on five. And there's a moment where Sykes fouled Flage pretty hard and Flage like did the turn and look at her was like, she just does not back down at all. And Sykes is one of the fiercest competitors in the league, fiercest defenders. And I love watching Flaje's one, her skill, her talent. She continues to impress me. With her game. It was her cutting last night, but then it's that dog demeanor. It's like the way she handled that one on one in. In the game battle, but didn't let it fluster her. I was like, oh, she's got that extra layer of like, I can get into it with a player but not let it take me out of my game. And so then Sykes came back, was going at her. Flage played great defense, but she didn't foul. That was the thing of like, that's something where young players oftentimes can get frustrated. They get into too much of the ticky tack. Like, you know, Draymond's gonna bait people cause Draymond knows how to play that way. I was gonna bait people cause I know how to play that way and I'm not gonna let you get the best of me. And so for me, seeing Flaje do that was like this me really like narrowing in on this game within a game that was happening. So everyone get on board with me. We gotta push it unrivaled so we can get this one on one battle coming up.
- [15:46]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, we know Flage's already know in that unrivaled is next class and. Or I'm not saying the name right, but like the future is unrivaled class. There we go. And Sykes has been an unrivaled.
- [15:55]
Laysha Clarendon
So that's what I'm saying. Yeah, I'm setting up the bracket. I'm like, okay, you guys give us what we want. So. All right, coming up next, we're going to take a closer look at the role that health plays in the longevity of players careers.
- [16:13]
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Annie Costable
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Laysha Clarendon
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Laysha Clarendon
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- [17:50]
Laysha Clarendon
One of the hardest things to do in professional sports stay in the league for 10 to 15 years and the WNBA longevity isn't just about talent. It's about health, adaptation, learning how to sustain excellence over time. Let's take Sue Bird for example. If you don't know her, wow, that's insane. But she's had one of the longest careers in WNBA history. She's incredibly talented. She showed us what nutrition, elite recovery, managing workload could do to extend your career. Other players that come to mind for me are Dana Taurasi, Tameka Catchings, Tita Thompson, Delicia Milton Jones, like all players that had 15, 17 year careers. And a current player that I really love is Alicia Clark, whose longevity is coming from more than just her skill. It's like her career is a good example of how taking care of your body, being adaptable to new roles, using your veteran experience to mentor people can really extend your career. So we're seeing that health is so important across the league. Let's talk about New York Liberty, for example. Early in the season they're already dealing with injuries. I sound exhausted in it because I'm already exhausted at the fact that they're dealing with so many injuries and they're missing key players like Sabrina Enescu, Saty Sabili. Yes, they've still managed to win games, but the question that really starts to pop up for me is like how long can they sustain success while being shorthanded? And the second part of that is like the impacts of that strain that it puts on the current players like Stewie JJ who have to carry the load while players like Sabrina are out. Let's get into it. What are you guys seeing hearing about these injuries? Where are we at? Sabrina coming back? How's the ankle?
- [19:24]
Annie Costable
Yeah, I guess I'll start having, you know, been around the Liberty at the start of the season and even being there for that game where Sabrina sustained that left foot injury. So ultimately with Sabrina, it was so interesting because we all watched as she kind of rolled her ankle in this game and even in that Post game, Chris DiMarco acknowledged, okay, yeah, she rolled her ankle. Outlook is positive immediately. And then we find out, oh, it's actually her left foot that sustained the injury. And so just like a slight distinction to make there. She rolled her ankle, but she injured her foot. And so with her, I think the concern from the fan perspective was like, this was an ankle that, you know, she had an issue with back in, what was it, 20, 20, 20.
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Laysha Clarendon
Yeah.
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Annie Costable
And so I think it's, it's just something that immediately not only sets the fans off, but as a reporter, you're like, okay, this has been a thing in the past. Is this the same thing? How is the ankle going to respond, ankle foot going to respond now to this new injury? What I know is she's being reevaluated. It was what, two weeks? So now we're about through that. So to my understanding, this is not something to be concerned about, you know, beyond, you know, this immediate two week period when it comes to SATU too. There's been a lot of, I think online chatter, even responses to our newsletter, wondering about satu's availability because she's coming off this situation last year where she sustains this, you know, concussion and concussions are tricky. And, and so there I saw some concern from readers of, of like, is what's going on is this, is are the Liberty covering up something that has to do with her injury from last year because she started the season in this reconditioning mode. And what that really is, is just getting back into like on court readiness, I guess, for lack of a better term. And now we see this cyst and so people are like, what is going on? What I can say is, you know, this is not related to anything that occurred last year. SATU is expected to make a return. You know, the timeline for that is I haven't been provided a timeline, so I don't want to prematurely speak to a timeline, but there's not a concern from within this organization of SATU's availability early in the season. Like, SATU is going to be available. It's just, you know, assists is a weird thing to have to get figured out.
- [22:18]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. Just the tricky thing with SATU is that availability has been a question for so many years in her career. Right. Like you think about, she's played the W for six seasons, she's played more than half of her games three times. Like, that's not exactly the type of availability you want when you're an all star player, when you're trying to be part of potentially a Big Four competing for a championship. New York. Right. So I think part of the concern with SATU isn't just like, oh, what's happening? Is it related to the concussion? Is it just like, oh, my God, here we go again. Like, is this going to be another year where we think we have SATU and we don't have SATU on the court during the WNBA season?
- [22:51]
Laysha Clarendon
Yeah, that's actually an interesting point. I feel like we didn't talk about what the signing I've heard in New York was. They dealt with riddle with injuries last season. Then you get a player who hasn't historically had healthy years. You're setting yourself up to almost like that's why we need a Big Four, because we're only going to ever have two or three of them potentially available at any given moment. You don't expect Sabrina to go down. She's been pretty healthy outside of that ankle injury. But I'm very curious about, like, the strain that it puts on the players who have to overextend. Like JJ historically hasn't had the highest motor. She's been okay. She's had up and down health kind of battles. But in terms of just like that player who's got a high motor, who's gonna give you 30, 30 plus 35 minutes, that's just not her game. And that's fine. That's just the reality of who she is. Stewie's got a bit of a higher motor. But then we're putting the strain on Stewie to continue to play all of these minutes early in her the start of the season. When you're thinking about this squad, who we said earlier, the pod like isa finals are bust with that roster. So if you're thinking Finals are bust, I'm looking at the impacts that this is putting on requiring other players. Yes, it's getting Astia, their backup point guard, a ton of experience. I think that's the positive of Sabrina being out right now. She's just getting thrown in the fire and getting to learn. But on the flip side, I'm always worried about what that does for the people who have to step up and carry a heavier load when Stewie already carries.
- [24:10]
Sabrina Merchant
I look at the Liberty now and Stewie's basically playing like backup center. Like Honshu played, I think about six minutes the other day. So, like, when JJ's not on the court, that's Stewie being your five. And, like, there's also little points. Stewie. There's also little, like, number one options. Dewey. So I realized she can do all of these things. It's just so many things to ask her to do at the very beginning of the season.
- [24:28]
Annie Costable
Yeah. And I think when it comes to Stewie doing all of that, that's one of the reasons why, coming into the season, when she's emphasizing how healthy she feel, I don't want to speak for her, but again, there was, like, this glowing excitement over it because she knows the expectation that comes with who she is and what she is for this team. Like, there's no getting around the fact that Stewie is the motor of. Of the Liberty. Like, yes, this is a team full of, you know, they have this big five.
- [25:02]
Laysha Clarendon
Like, they have a big six. You know, like, they.
- [25:05]
Annie Costable
They literally are the monsters in my op. And within that, Stewie is still the number one. And as she goes, the team goes. And so her health coming in this year cannot be overstated. The importance of Stewie being at 100 for this team.
- [25:25]
Laysha Clarendon
Yes. All right, let's talk about health. I have some thoughts around my own health experiences, and a lot of players probably do in terms of, like, the championships we would have won, could have won if I would have possibly stayed healthy. I think that's a big one to get into of that question, like, so many athletes have, of, like, how do you think your career would have been different if an injury never happened? I'm flashing back to 2019. Shout out to Elena Deladon winning her first ever title. D.C. i'm not mad. I'm very sad. I'm crying inside. Was the year I'm back in Connecticut in 2019, playing backup point guard to Jazz Thomas, and we had a really good bench. Like, Kurt didn't play his bench at time. I was one of the few players he actually trusted to sub into the game and go down with a foot injury and an ankle injury, like, I think it was in June or July, have surgery, takes three months to come back. And you look at, like, how simply there's, like, the idea of luck, this magic that goes into having a healthy season, like New York with a healthy roster, we're saying should absolutely walk to the finals, should get there. But you have those experiences where you go out, whether it's your backup point guard, your star player. We've talked about across the league, different teams who could potentially be okay losing a certain Player or not. So even in that role, backing up a Jazz Thomas, for example, was. She was a player who played with such intensity on both sides of the floor and carried such a heavy load. Like she needed that she needed those 15 minutes to get out of the game to just have that kind of breather. Sub in Natisha Heideman is just a young player, not quite that ability at the time. You sub in Natisha Heidemann now as a backup point guard, I think you can get over the potential hump. Washington has Natasha Cloud, right, There's like the. They've got, excuse me, Chrissy Toliver, a veteran point guard. And so I think there's like these examples across sport in how close you could be. But health is just one of those things of like, you get to control so many things. And then there's other things. Like how my injury happened was I stepped on someone's foot in practice, literally practicing every day, stepped on someone's foot, Boom, busted my ankle. It's like season's over at that. Come back right at the end of the finals. Like, we work so hard as athletes and I was someone who did all the nutrition, did all the sue things, all the Alicia Clark things, the resting, the taking care of your bodies, the prehab, the post hab. And at the end of the day, it sucks. Cause it just happens in our sport. And that's the really down kind of dark side of it is it just, just happens. And I think that's always the hard part of watching these stories throughout the league is you just kind of hope, pray you put all the good energy, all the mantras, burn your sage, do whatever you do for all these players and you hope that they're great. But I've personally kind of experienced some of that with my own. I've been able to come back from all of my injuries, thankfully, in terms of longevity, but had these really like acute moments. The other one was in LA when I tore my foot. And LA had a ton riddled with injuries that year from Lexi Brown to Cheney's knee to mine, to like talk about carrying the load. It was Jordan, Canada, neca, like carrying the entire team for so long and just doing too much. So I'm really curious about how you guys have seen like also these injuries affect players confidence, how they've been able to come back. Like, is Satu a player who's able to come back from this injury and have confidence across the longevity of her career?
- [28:48]
Sabrina Merchant
I think one of the things that's interesting about injury is that the league is clearly working in a direction to make players healthy. Right. Like, you see charter flights, which makes the travel experience easier. Right. You've seen more people added to the sports performance stabs and the medical stabs for each team. Like, they're mandated to have more people. You have more practice facilities. Right. Which just centralizes the environment. People can get rehab and things like that. So in theory, the WNBA is moving in a direction where players should be healthier. Right. Because the experience is just so much more health forward, and yet we're still seeing a lot of these injuries take place. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that. I think it could be just like, the pace of play is so much faster, more games, you know, But I think it's interesting that, like, the league clearly recognizes, like, we have to protect our athletes. Right. Like, that's the number one draw for fans is, like, they want to watch our players be healthy. And you look at a season like 2025 where so many of the big names were out for such long stretches of the. And, you know, you put all these things in place to make sure that the players have better access to, you know, personnel and facilities and all that. And yet we're still dealing with these injury issues, which is really interesting to me because you'd think we'd kind of moved past that. And I don't know if, like, it's just a. Like, Annie, do you think it's just, like, a growing period where, like, eventually these things will take root and, like, make an impact on players and we just, like, haven't got there yet because we're still so early in, like, the charter practice facility era of the W. Yeah.
- [30:14]
Annie Costable
I think this is, again, such a layered conversation because even when it comes to everyday health for women, our country has not invested in understanding women's bodies. Like, I don't know if you guys have read Invisible Women, our listeners, if you haven't, I highly suggest this book. It details exactly how society was set up up with the male body in mind across the board. From health to travel to business hours to airbags, everything. It's. It's. Yeah, okay, right. Public transportation. There's a whole chapter on how public transportation was built with male males in mind. Anyways, so when I think about that and then kind of the hurdles that women's sports have faced in terms of an investment standpoint, there's so much that women are working their way back from. And so to your point, I think 100% it's a situation where things have to take root to actually see the result. I also think it's going to require further investment from. From owners and, you know, outside parties who are committed to equalizing the health landscape for women to do outside work like Clara Wu Tsai and that franchise has. She's investing in. I don't want to misspeak, but she's been doing a lot of work in the study of women's health. And specifically as it pertains to athletes, that's going to be something, you know, to pay attention to and to monitor. Because again, when you consider what some of these players, like Leija that you spoke about have endured because these. These things weren't available to them. Like, I'm thinking immediately of Elena Deladon, right. You know, that's a player whose career was prematurely ended in a, you know, because of health issues. And it's unfortunate to think about because, again, she got that title. But it's like, damn, at what cost? What more? Right, Exactly. At what cost? Because that's the other thing, too, is athletes have to think about their lives, their livelihood after they're done playing. And then I immediately, when I think of that, think of Candace Parker and all the injuries she navigated that no one really knew about because Candace was a player. When I covered her in Chicago. Chicago, she was doing so much outside work because she was a player that had the ability to do so. Right. Like, Candace has always been stacking her bread outside of the wnba. She's a businesswoman, you know, outside of her career in the wnba. And as a result, she. She was able to pour into herself in ways that some of her peers maybe did not have the same means to do so. Right. And so. And so Candace was able to extend, I think, the length of her career because of the investment she put back into herself, including that championship season. She wrecked her ankle to start that season. I remember seeing the pictures of her ankle, and it was wrecked. And so it's like she got back and again changed that franchise forever, what she was able to do, and then doubled down and came back one more year and was breaking records and in a lot of ways had this, like, resurgence to a former version of herself. So there's so much to. To get into when, yeah, when you're considering kind of these injuries and. And what's at play here and. And Laysha, like, even when I'm thinking about it, even when an injury like Elena Delladon, major injury. Candace Parker, she's dealt with some significant injuries, but even when an injury isn't Considered major. It still takes a toll on a player over the course of the season. Like, look at Caitlin Clark as an example. She has. After a year of dealing with these soft tissue injuries, she comes back and game one opens up about, oh, I had to get my back readjusted. And then, Sabrina, you're in la. And she kind of dives into that a little bit further and admits that there's a. There's a huge mental component to this, like after the season that she had from the outside, fans aren't seeing, you know, what's going on behind the scenes. The daily recovery, the treatment, the wear and tear that is required to be available night in and night out, including the mental wear and tear. So laja for you. What do people not realize about the physical and mental grind of trying to perform while your body is screaming? Whether because there's seriously an issue, or in Caitlin's case, because you're concerned about what you've already endured.
- [35:39]
Laysha Clarendon
There's so many fans don't understand the. The mental side of it. There's the physical of the basketball. We always say the mental part of the game, but the mental part of injury. The first thing I'm thinking about is coming back from my ankle injury and how I had to learn to trust it again, that I could cut and I could do the moves. Because although I had gone through the rehab for three years, when I did that first cut, it was like, is it gonna break? Is it gonna pop again? Like, is it really stuck on there? So, like, just even that, the baby steps of. Although I'd done all the rehab, so physically my ankle was sound. I had done the imaging, I had done the MRIs. Like, it was good. But the mental part of me was having to learn how to be like, I can cut on this ankle again. And so I remember being. I was actually playing for Connecticut. I was in Indiana. Cause I was traveling with the team as I was coming back. And it was after shoot around, I did my first, like, lane line to lane line cutting drill. Like, where I just slid, slid, slid, like touched the line, slid, slid, slid. And my trainer was filming me. And it was like this big moment that we celebrated and I did it like full speed. We'd been working up to it. And she was like, go ahead, you can do it. Just cut, like touch yourself for like, you know, 20 seconds, go back and forth. So I'm just doing these little defensive slide drills and had that moment of like, ah. Like it was okay. And it was that, like, you take a deep breath and you have a sigh moment of like, okay, my ankle's good. And that's the mental part of like learning to trust your body again. Cause as athletes we have so much trust and self awareness in our body and our ability to move through time and space. We don't think during the game, that's the point. We just move. And we know we've done all the training, so our body is like, we're in it. But then when you injure yourself, it's almost not like your body betrayed you, but you're like, oh, like this could happen. And so then you have that like trauma actually like respond. There's the mental side of overcoming the trauma of an injury of like, it's not gonna flare up or I've had some back stuff too in my career. And then anytime you feel your back, like it could literally just be like a twinge. You're like, you have that, oh my God, is my back going out? Oh my God, is it happening? And it's like, it literally was just like your cue. I was a little tight. But your body remembers and keeps score of that like that trauma happening. And I think that's one of the hardest things to overcome. You see it a ton with athletes and their ACLs of learning to trust, like their lateral movement again and that they sometimes ACLs hold you back physically, but really trusting that you can move that way. And so yeah, the mental physical toll combination is just, just, it's grueling, it's nasty. It's like the dark underbelly side of the sport that people don't see or get to be privy to. And the mental toll it takes to get to see the performance they don't always see. Unfortunately. Like, I'm hoping for more. I think this is where LA has done a really good job is like approaching athletes wellness from a really broad spectrum of like having a mental health professional having access to an acupuncturist, having, you know, massage come on site, like consistently doing things that like wrap the athlete around, like do everything. And the more we can start to think about how to treat athletes, like preventative exercises that we can do, preventative technologies, like I think to the point we were having earlier, like, because the money's got there, there's still all the protocols that are like, to catch up to it, like it doesn't flip the page. And all of a sudden some teams like, like didn't even have a physical therapist on staff. Like they'd have one trainer. You just hoped your trainer was also kind of A pt. Like sometimes a trainer would be a PT and you would like, oh, we struck gold. Like Jess Cohen back in Atlanta when I had her, like, she was phenomenal. You're like, thank God. Other times you just have a trainer and like there's just a basic ass trainer who doesn't know things. And then you have some phenomenal trainer like Terry Acosta in New York is like one of the best to ever do it. But that resourcing is still so behind. So getting to the point where you have two trainers on staff, you has a physical therapist, you have access to an acupuncturist, do you have cryotherapy on staff, like in your building where you can go get that kind of recovery? What do your facility looks look like? Minnesota has historically been one of the best. They have everything, like with the Mayo Clinic right there, really built in. But there's still such a discrepancy across. I mean, LA still doesn't have their practice facility yet. Like it's coming. So like we're getting there, like Dallas is getting there, but we're still not quite in that that. We've heard Candace Parker talk about not having a facility for her entire career until she went to LA or to Vegas and how difficult that was. And then NECA didn't have it till she went to the storm. This isn't a bashing la. I'm so proud that they're getting it, but the reality of like that toll that that takes on a player. When I was in Atlanta, we were practicing at the epicenter, right? Like we're changing with people with like the old ladies who were there at the rec center. So like all of that stuff takes a toll on your body and it's getting better. But, but to your point, Annie, it's just not quite a hundred percent there yet. And I think it will continue to get better though.
- [40:34]
Sabrina Merchant
And you think about like the investment that can take place in women's basketball and why people talk about why the ROI is so high on women's basketball. It's because like, there are these very specific things you can invest in that are going to have a tangible impact on players. Like the idea that like you don't have a physical therapist on staff is just like mind boggling to me. You know, like, that you could just hire one professional and meaningfully change the outcomes for your players is just like, that's why you put money into women's sports, is because you can see the return come back. Like, and not just because. Yeah, I mean, obviously it's good for the players, too, but, like, just put the money in.
- [41:05]
Annie Costable
It's also, like, this is your business. Like, you are protect your players. You are investing into your product. Your product is the health of your players and. And the sustainability of your franchise. What makes sense about cutting corners? I'm confused.
- [41:27]
Laysha Clarendon
Yeah.
- [41:27]
Sabrina Merchant
And, like, if your players are injured, they're not working on their game, right? Like, you think about all that you lose because of injury. Like, you lose, like, the mental hurdles that you're talking about. Leija. And, like, you're constantly in a battle with your body of, like, you know, can I do this? Can I not do this? It's also just, like, the six months that you spent on rehab. You can't work on all of the things that, like, make you a basketball player. And player development is such an important part of, you know, growth in the WNBA and, like, keeping teams together, making sure, like, you know, you look at Jackie Young, and she's able to add all these things to her game every offseason, and Asia's able to add all these things to our game every offseason. They're able to do that because they're healthy every offseason, right? They're not worried about, oh, I gotta fix this little thing in my knee, or whatever. Like, development can only happen when players are healthy. And that's. I think it's such an overlooked part of it. Like, you talk about how the Liberty are, like, facing the situation where, you know, they finally had an offseason where, like, Stewie could actually work on things, right? Like, it's just. It just makes you so much better coming into the year.
- [42:22]
Annie Costable
But the other part of that, too, that is interesting to me is depending on the age you're at, your experience with injury is naturally going to look different. And part of getting to that tail end of your career and maintaining health at that point is what you do in your early 30s, your late 20s, right? Like, I can recall Kalia Kopper joking with Candace about, oh, I. I don't do certain things. And Candace was like, well, you're gonna, like, you're gonna have to, if you want, be playing at a high rate, you know, later in your career. And it was funny to watch in real time as Kalia's mentality about certain protective measures and, you know, lifting and just different steps she was taking to take care of her body as she progressed further into her career, because it's also not to make this about us, Sabrina, as just, like. Like the peasants of the show, you know, like, we're not the athletes on the show. But even, even in your day to day life. I can recall being in my late 20s and talking to my friends who are older and they're like, oh yeah, just wait till you hit 30. The back problems and the knee problems start and I'm like, that's not going to happen to me. Like, I'm working out five times a week. I'm doing high intensity training. I'm an athlete. Like, please, I turned 30, my knees and my back were like, like F you. And so again, if you're playing for a franchise that isn't putting you in the position to lengthen your career because you don't have the right investment that is allowing you to take care of your body properly at 29, at 30, you know you're gonna see it later in your career.
- [44:14]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So I mean, we've talked about like these players who have like the good fortune of staying healthy and players who for whatever reason are just bombarded by one injury after another. And it seems like they're just constantly in battle to stay on the court. Lei, like, is it just some people like have bodies that are more resilient or like, is it a luck thing? Like, what do you think explains this gap in players who are able to stay on the court versus some players who aren't?
- [44:38]
Laysha Clarendon
God, I mean, genetics does play a factor. I remember doing some of the testing that I've done and there are like predispositions to injuries. So even, even if we get really into it, if this investment you can to like have this sounds terrible test players, but like players with consent to give that information of like knowing your background and history. There's been a ton of stories on Sue Bird and her working with Susan Borcher and Ashley Bisecker. I worked with them as well. And you do all this testing to know like genetically what you're predisposed to. And then you also can use that to then work on like, if it's knee injuries or hips or certain things, or like you have certain ligament issues that like you can't control that you gotta like look at your parents side eye, be like, that's like, why'd you give me these jeans? Or obviously they were good enough to get you to be a pro athlete, so you're pretty solid. But some of it is genetic makeup, which is just unfortunate because you could work your ass off your whole life. There's other things that go into factor I think about, I love my girl Courtney Williams. She'll be in her McDonald's and her Skittles, and she's fine. Courtney's out there. She hooves like, I don't know where her jeans look like. Shout out to her. Like, I love it. It. Her mental health, her vibes. Like, Courtney's just loving life out there. But there's also, like, the. What you do to take care of yourself that put yourself in the best position. But ultimately, at the end of the day, it is, like, it's a risk anytime you step on the court and play basketball. And, like, that's personally why I don't play right now at all. And people are like, don't you miss playing? I'm like. And step out there and, like, bust my ass. No, like, anytime you play, there's just a risk. And I think some of that is the reality. You could do everything you want to factor in all of these things. I do think players who are in younger in their career absolutely underestimate nutrition, sleep, hydration, your spiritual practices, the things that, like, what you're letting into your life. Like, how grounded are you off the court? Like, in terms of drama and life, like, what you're consuming. I sound like the old head who would be, like, the yoga person. But you do see, like, you know, the Sylvia Fowls of the world. Like, I used to do Pilates with Sylvia, and, like, we would do Pilates before practice. And. And those kind of practices that just are gonna make your body so much more resilient. Like, we put our bodies through unimaginable things, and so you're kind of constantly do whatever you can to mitigate the impact that you're gonna put on your body. Cause we're doing things that, like, I've been reflecting on this a lot lately of, like, athletes push our bodies to the brink, and that's, like, what we're celebrated for. But when I've stepped back from that, I'm like, damn. Like, that's kind of really messed up that, like, we push our. But, like, it's like, now that I'm out of it and towards the end of my career, like, I could see the sport so much more clearly. And part of it was because I was healing and doing work that I wasn't, like, so detached from myself that I was able to endure the pain of the sport, frankly. And so the healthier I got at the end of my career, the more I looked around, like, this is kind of insane, what they're asking us to do. Like, actually every day to step out on the court and to, like. Like, the amount of pain that you have to persevere through constantly. It's not normal. And it's partly why athletes are able to do it. But I think it also is why you start to see so much, like, mental health stuff. Like, it's being a part of a population that's able to do something that the human body is, like, not designed to be overused and abused like that. It's really resilient, but it really does push to the brink. So do everything you can, you know, to stop it. It's like, that was. I needed my moment at church. Cause it's a lot.
- [48:05]
Annie Costable
Oh, my God. Honestly, I just, like, that made me emotional because now I'm thinking about, like, Sabrina. Think about how many times we show up to practice or a game, and you're like, seeing a player the tail end of whatever they're doing to get ready for practice or to. To get ready for the game. And it's like, you guys, literally every second of every day is a dedication to what you just said. Like, pushing your body to the brink of failure. Because that's what you're doing. You're seeing how far you could push your body before it breaks.
- [48:42]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. And I think so much of this conversation is often about older players who are doing what they can to extend their career. Right? Like, doing everything to squeeze out however many days or games that they have left. And it's like, I think so much about the younger players, too, who are already just exerting themselves to unimaginable lens. I watched Caitlin Clark walk around with a back brace, and she's 24 years old. And it just makes me upset that someone who's 24 years old has to walk around with a back brace. And just all of the overload that is on younger players because of aau, because of the extended schedule of college basketball, all these injuries that we're seeing for younger players at an earlier age. It's just really scary. And you think about all the practices that they could be undertaking to. To make things easier on them right now. Like, I. I think about Kelsey Plum having her, you know, like, dog class for the college players when they come into the wnba. She does that for three years. And like, Susan Forcher King is part of that. And like, all of the mental health and like, physical practices that they put into it. But it's still like, the idea that your. Your physical livelihood and your, like, financial livelihood depends on you. Just stretching your body beyond what you think is possible is. Yeah, like, the mental heart of that. It's Just crazy. Yeah.
- [49:50]
Annie Costable
We'll add one more thing too, to the younger players like you're seeing. And this has probably always been a thing. I would venture to guess not probably. It. It has always been a thing. But like, to your point about the younger players, Paige has spoken about this already in terms of her off season and what she did to put her body in the best position to endure this 44 game season. And we saw she bulked up and it's like her off season, she said, was spent in the weight room. She was, was trying to put on weight. She was. She talked about eating healthier, prioritizing her sleep. And these are things that sound
- [50:29]
Laysha Clarendon
like
- [50:30]
Annie Costable
normal things, prioritizing your sleep. It's like, yeah, we'd all, we all talk about pride. Getting. Yeah. That eight, nine hours of sleep. And it's like, no, if you're someone like Paige Beckers, whoever else. Insert athlete name here. If you're not getting a proper sleep, if you're not eating a balanced meal, your body is at risk when you step on that court. It's not about, oh, it would feel good to sleep nine hours. You know, I love when I wake up after a nine hour night, you know, I'm like, I gotta, I gotta.
- [51:01]
Laysha Clarendon
It's a part of the job.
- [51:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, right.
- [51:02]
Annie Costable
It's like. And I've gotta say I have sleep anxiety. So if it was part of my job, like, if my, if I had a checklist that was like, annie, if you don't get nine hours of sleep, you're gonna wake up tomorrow, tomorrow and you're going to be at risk of. I would literally not be able to sleep.
- [51:20]
Laysha Clarendon
I would be like, oh my God,
- [51:22]
Annie Costable
I can't do it.
- [51:24]
Laysha Clarendon
Like the aura ring.
- [51:25]
Annie Costable
The aura ring. That's why I don't get the aura ring. Because I'm like, I don't, I can't, I can't know. I cannot know.
- [51:32]
Laysha Clarendon
My God. And I think that what to the point of Paige in the off season of one of the biggest wins of the CBA and players getting paid is the, that they can stay home now. They don't have to go abroad to like make decent money and live is like the deep breath of that sigh that. That gives me to one think about their health. Like, this was something player health, safety and wellness was something we've just preached throughout my entire time being a part of the executive committee and the fact that now they can stay home so their bodies are not being abused abroad with the travel, with the games, with having to be the Stewies on their team, essentially when they're playing. You gotta be the man when you go play for your overseas team. And then also to your point, Sabrina, like, when people are healthy, you get to develop, like, the actual talent and skill level of the game improving because. So it's been so hard to develop talent in the WNBA because we've just played year round. And so I chose to, like, not go overseas and just be broke and get better and have a longer career. But then I sacrificed, like, having the money of playing overseas. So it's like you're having to make these choices of which one you're going to do. You can laugh. That was kind of funny. And. But Right. It's a factor of, like, that's why
- [52:39]
Sabrina Merchant
you're a member of the media now.
- [52:41]
Laysha Clarendon
Exactly what you're. That's so good. Oh, my God, that's so good. That's something I'm really looking forward to. Like, the ripple effect of the CBA and like, how we don't even know the true impact of it yet. And when we get to see players who, like, have got to develop for a year or two in an off season and haven't had to go play and have more pts and actually get to stay healthy, I. I think we're going to see just more insane growth.
- [53:08]
Sabrina Merchant
Just one thing I wanted to add, like, we heard, you know, Nikisa Collier basically, like, explicitly blame, like, the officiating for the reason she got hurt last year. And, you know, Stephanie White kind of alluded to it last year with Caitlyn and her stop tissue injuries. We have seen very clear points of emphasis and, like, a changing of how the game is being officiated. I'm wondering, Lei, like, do you think that this is going to have a change in how people, like, can protect their bodies, or is this just different related to style of play?
- [53:36]
Laysha Clarendon
Oh, that's a good question because they have been super on it. Like, Dolson's, like, almost felling out all the games right now. Having to learn how to play. Yeah. Less physical. Oh, that's a great point. I mean, I do think I like the physicality of the game, so I'm like, I'm very biased in terms of physicalness. And I know, like, sue hated it because I just want to beat everybody up on the court. And I do think there should be a level of physicality to the game, but I don't ever want it to be injury. I love fee that she did not roll her ankle because Elizabeth did not foul her. She stole the ball and you rolled your ankle. That sucks. But yeah, I do think the refs being consistent is always the issue. And wanting them to consistently have like, one days they call it. Some days they don't. So it's like, are we able to bump the cutter? Are we not. Are we able to do this or not? Some games you get, you play certain teams and like, it seems like that team gets away with certain things or certain styles. So I do think cleaning up some of the physicality of the game wouldn't be bad, particularly for entertainment purposes and offense, because then there's more freedom of movement that people score more points. Score more points is fun. It gets more All Star game. Like, we're getting these 100 point games where we get to see. But, you know, I don't ever want it to turn, like, too All Star gamey. Where there's like, not gritty defense. Like, I think of the Veronica Burton of the league. Like, she's a player who does not play dirty at all. Like, she's super clean, she's physical, she's gonna bump, you know, and like, there, there should be a balance between the physicality of the league. Like, it's not volleyball. There's a reason why there's no net between us. Like, we're meant to be hitting each other to some degree, but it also shouldn't be football. Yeah, I don't want to be that old person who's like, yo, in the 80s, all the NBA guys in my day, we used to be able to slam someone to the ground and spit on them, and they would do nothing, you know, like. Like, I don't think we need that. That's. That's how they always sound to me. We used to.
- [55:23]
Sabrina Merchant
Whenever I think of Leysha, I think of the 2023 Sparks media day when Leija was saying how proud, you know, Zaya Cook. Because Zaya came in and just like bumped you, like, right before. It's like the inbound and you're like, yeah, she gets it now.
- [55:39]
Laysha Clarendon
Exactly. Because I was just beating her up before. Like, come on, girl. Like, what are you gonna. And she's like a tough player. And then she kind of realized, oh, I gotta fight back. It's like, yeah, because when you get out there, they're not just gonna let you catch the ball in the wing. Like, what is this? Like, this is the ymca. Like, right. People are out here trying to play
- [55:55]
Annie Costable
here, catch this pass and then give me a moment to. To set up against you.
- [56:01]
Laysha Clarendon
Cause that's what people underestimate about our league. And the thing I've heard the most when people come watch is like, oh, y' all are physical. And I'm always like, what did you think we were doing? Like, picking flowers? Like, yeah. And like, it doesn't always translate on TV to in person. I understand, is like, when you actually see in person all the hand fighting that happens, all the, like, small little gritty things that go in between, it is like, it's. There's so many battles within the game, like just getting a wing catch or an elbow entry pass. Like, that's a whole battle that's been happening for 10 seconds before it even happened. So I don't think those things should be taken away. Like slapping through on balls on handoffs. That's one of the most, like, physical places in our league that is clearly this accepted rule of, like, you're able to slap through on a handoff.
- [56:44]
Annie Costable
The off ball physicality between Diana Tausi and Ali Quigley, I just have to say, was one of my favorite, like, matchups to watch in my career. I was always like, it felt like Diana was just out, out to piss Ally off every single game. Like watching those two teams go at it. And that matchup, specifically favorite.
- [57:06]
Laysha Clarendon
This is all great conversation with health and wellness and the physicality.
- [57:10]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm sure, like, physicality, like, has effects on health and wellness. I'm just wondering. No, I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:15]
Laysha Clarendon
No, I don't want to get into,
- [57:16]
Sabrina Merchant
like the full refereeing conversation yet. I'm sure we have plenty of time for that. Yeah. Yes.
- [57:20]
Laysha Clarendon
Okay. So that's a really great perspective today. And I think it just really shows, like, how much, much you're talking about health, wellness, safety, physicality. Shout out Sabrina for that and how much it goes into the longevity or a career. So on the other side, we're going to get into our last block.
- [57:43]
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- [59:58]
Laysha Clarendon
Okay, Annie, Sabrina, it's time to set our screens. What games will y' all be watching this weekend? Sabrina, go.
- [60:06]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so I'm going to be in person at Sparks Toronto this weekend. I'm very excited to see, you know, an expansion team come to la. Maybe the Sparks can pick up their first one in the season. Truthfully, if the Sparks don't pick up their first one of the season, I think they're officially in like a time to get Juju Watkins mode. But yeah, L.A. toronto.
- [60:26]
Laysha Clarendon
Okay, Annie, where you got?
- [60:30]
Annie Costable
I am in Connecticut today. I head back to New York tomorrow but unfortunately the Liberty are not back in New York until next week. They have actually the entire week off. So I will be watching games from home. But the one I got my eyes on, Aces dream, baby. That to me is like the marquee matchup of the week and apparently to the WNBA too, because I think it's on ABC and espn.
- [60:53]
Sabrina Merchant
NBC, NBC.
- [60:55]
Annie Costable
NBC. My bad, my bad, my bad. NBC. Shout out to you. But yeah, I just think this is like a preview to a potential title match. I think Sabrina what you had them both These teams had a case to
- [61:07]
Sabrina Merchant
go to the Liberty actually.
- [61:08]
Annie Costable
Okay. But someone it might have been.
- [61:11]
Sabrina Merchant
I do love when Vegas goes to Atlanta and you get to hear all of the Asia Wilson stands in Atlanta which the dream do not care for.
- [61:19]
Annie Costable
Yeah it might have been one of like our colleagues at a different outlet. I think it actually was Maddie Kenny at the Post who predicted Aces dream in the finals and I think very possible, I think to dream look like a contender early. We've all said that in previous podcasts and in our kind of prediction polls. This is a contending team so it'll be good to see them matched up against the reigning champs.
- [61:44]
Laysha Clarendon
Great. I'm going to got my on Seattle see if they can guard the three point line a little bit better than they did last night. Going to have a great challenge with Indiana. Right back Caitlin Kelsey was two players I think for Toronto who hit all the three. So it's like all right, scouting report. Let's see, let's, let's see the improvement. Right. Young team growing. I'm always looking for like where are the small wins within it. All right, that's all we've got for today. We'll be back next week. More in the world of women's hoops. Send us your questions. The mailbags. If you like the episode, say all the great things. If you don't, keep your comments to yourself because that's not nice. Please subscribe.
- [62:20]
Annie Costable
No, just send them to my DMs. I'm just joking.
- [62:25]
Laysha Clarendon
Hit Annie directly. Do not hit me. Tell your friends about us. We did an episode on criticism, so yes, we could take it. Give us some constructive criticism on behalf of the Athletic. Annie Constable, Sabrina Merchant, I'm Lazia Clarinen. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time.
- [62:40]
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