← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Is the WNBA Ready to Be Criticized Like Every Other Major League?
01:35:35
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- [00:00]
A
What constitutes as a traditional beat reporter in my mind is someone who is on the ground every day, on the road, literally. It's their full time job to be with that team. What you learn about a team when you are spending that much time with them? You guys, I spent more time with the Chicago sky during my years covering that team than I did with my own family. James Wade, Kalia Kopper, you know, go down the list. I was seeing them on a more regular basis than I was seeing my own friends and family. So I say that to say it starts there. That's how much time you are with a team. And when you are with a team that much, you observe little things about this team, everything from personality traits to players. Is there a vibe off what's up? And then that frames your questioning.
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B
Hello, everyone, and welcome to no offseason. I'm Zena Caida.
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A
I'm Annie Costable.
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C
And I'm Lazia Clarendon.
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B
And today on the show, for a long time, the WNBA was a league just trying to survive. The players knew it, the fans knew it, and the media covering the league knew it too. There was kind of an unspoken agreement not to be too critical. But with the growth of the sport, with the league and the players thriving, the media coverage is changing too, and not everyone is happy about it. As members of the media, we are going to give our takes on this hot topic. But first, speaking of heat, the Portland Fire picked up their first win in the Fire pit, which I love that nickname for their arena, edging the New York Liberty 9896 in a very dramatic finish. Sophomore guard Sarah Ashley Barker, formerly with the Los Angeles Barks, sealed the win with a buzzer beating put back off a missed shot, which it was a crazy sequence in general, ending the game. But Sarah Ashley Barker getting a put back, clutch layup off a hustle play made all of the sense in the world. Now with the Liberty, they're still missing key players like Sabrina Unescu and Satsu Sable, but they did have Brianna Stewart and Jonquil Jones in the lineup. They just weren't able to do enough. Brianna struggled from the field. She was able to get to the free throw line a lot, which kept the Liberty in the game. But ultimately Portland was able to edge them out, scoring outscoring them in the fourth quarter. And that basically was a change or the difference in the game. Annie, in their first home game as a franchise winning in the fire pit, what stood out to you about them being able to pull off a win like this?
- [02:49]
A
Yeah, I mean, I Think the biggest takeaway for me is their ability to hang around and not only just hang around, but with a title contending team like the Liberty. And of course the Liberty are down, you know, a considerable amount in terms of being without Sabrina Ionescu Satu Sablee. But you can't negate the fact that you have a player like Bridget Carlton who puts up a career high 26 points, 5 for 11 from 3. That says a lot to me. And then in terms of, you know, the performance from Sarah, Ashley Barker like this I think speaks to who this team is going to be in terms of. They have players who, who are going to make game changing plays when it counts. And Sarah's one of those players and just her being in the right place, right time, she picks up that, she gets that put back off of Bridget Carlton's missed three point attempt. They have players who can come up big and it's really, there's not a single player on that team who is bigger than another. It's really a collective kind of force there. And I think again in this game that was the difference. They, they just again hung around and were pesky the entire game and refused to let go Lay.
- [04:08]
B
I thought we. Oh, oh. I wanted to specifically ask you about point guard play and a guard that you saw up close. Carla Late ends up with 21 points, four rebounds, six assists and finished with half of her points or more than half her points. Sixteen points in the paint. And this is what a lot of folks were sad about when Carla Late was, you know, drafted away from the Valkyries to Portland. But all the Portland fans were like, oh, we know what we're gonna get. What do you make of her game? And then also this entire Portland team and what they're building up in the Northwestern part of the United States.
- [04:44]
C
Yes, Where I'm at right now, Seattle, I thought, I mean, watching Carla, she's so much more comfortable than she was last season. Rightfully so. Her sophomore year, like, she just looked so frazzled at times with the Valkyries last year, like things were going 1,000amillion miles an hour because they are as a rookie. And so just seeing her confidence and her demeanor be so much different. She was confident last year, right. She would be shooting them threes regardless. But she just played really sped up. And so seeing her, even the swagger she had, that really stuck out to me. The thing that also stuck out to me was, I mean, they tried to keep her out of the paint. You do the thing where you sag off of her. She just Takes her time. She's not being baited into taking three. She's like, nah, she's nope, I'm going to get to my spot. They go under, under. They keep lowering the screens and then she's taking literally shots below the free throw line because they're still trying to go under because that's how good she is at getting into the paint. The other thing that stuck out to me is Portland in general is like, when you look at these teams on paper, that's something we talk about a ton. You kind of have to throw out the paper. I think that's what we've learned in this first couple of weeks in WNBA is like paper really doesn't mean at the end of the day because that's how much better the talent level is getting in the WNBA that you can't just say, oh, look at New York. Player for player for New York on paper is absolutely better. Maybe Pauline and Carla are the only two players I would say are comparable in that starting lineup. But everyone else, Marine, but Nijah, jj, Stewie, absolutely hands down better than the entire Portland starting lineup. And they still found a way to win, right? Their bench was good to Annie's point. They stuck around. They never held their heads down. They never folded. They were down 10, down 12. They just found a way to stick around. And then what Sarah did at the end of the game that really stuck out to me was she's in the corner, in the right corner a few seconds going down on the clock and Maureen does the right thing. Maureen Johannes is guarding her. She turns to facebox her because that's what you do for a really good offensive rebounding guard. And she can't. She literally does the right thing. She goes like this and actually does the hand fight, swim move. I will not be denied. I will be getting this over and winning the game. Right? That's the difference that I was like, wow, that kind of player to do that in their sophomore year. Portland has that like Valkyrie esque thing that you're like Wade that hungry. That like can they do they have that magic, that thing that makes them undeniable. And watching that game against New York, I was like, ooh, like Portland might have a little bit of that secret sauce that we saw last season.
- [07:13]
B
I can't remember who said this. I don't know if it was Tip Hayes or Temi Fagbenle, but about the Valkyries last year were a collection of six women and that's what that game from Portland definitely showcased. And it's important to note, we're talking about Sabrina Unescu and Satsu Sable not being available for the Liberty, as if they don't have this roster of monsters available to them. The Fire don't even have their full roster yet. They don't have Carla Samuelson, they don't have Suge Sutton. Um, and so that's important that they're. They're still being able to fight and have some resilience in the midst of that. So congratulations to them. Um, they were down in the first half. They got up to being down 13. And as Annie, you mentioned, they can hang around, end up winning. They contribute. Their bench contributed 32 points to New York's 11, which goes alongside what you're saying. Lay of just being some fighters, some a team full of women that are fighting to prove something. So big time win for Portland, also big time performance on the, you know, on the losing end of things. Paulina Estie, ma', am, rookie, took it out of my mouth, doing her thing, you know, incredibly efficient. 10 of 14 from the, you know, from the field, 24 points. It was the turnovers, though, Annie, that ended up, I think, being the crutch for her.
- [08:31]
A
Yeah, she had five turnovers yesterday. But then the big moment for her came when she committed that violation, the offensive three seconds. And in it, you know, the game was tied at that point at 96. And it put again, Portland in the. In the position where they had an opportunity to do what they did. And I think that's what's both interesting about Portland and speaks to where the Liberty are at right now is like, Portland seems like a team if you give them an opportunity. Like, you don't want to give them an opportunity late because they have key playmakers. So you don't even want to put them in that position where they can do what they did yesterday. And for Pauline, I think, you know, she's in this position. She had 24 points yesterday. She had 18 against Washington, seven assists against Washington, three last night against Portland. And so she's a playmaker. She's got all the pieces there. But that turnover late, I think speaks to her inexperience and the fact that she really is stepping into a role because Sabrina is not there. Right? Like Sabrina in that game, this. The Liberty should not have lost that game. And it's not an indictment on Pauline necessarily, because again, to Chris DeMarco's point, he said this post game, like, this mistake did not cost us the game. We committed a bunch of mistakes throughout the game. But it just speaks to the fact that this is a rookie point guard and she's being thrust into a position that she maybe didn't expect to be, but is because, you know, Sabrina goes down early. And so I think, if anything, you know, I'm not really one to give out, like, brownie points or, like, participation trophies, but what I'll say is Pauline has exemplified that. She's going to be a big threat coming off the bench for the Liberty. Now, the Liberty should not have lost this game. And they did this a lot last year where they, like, made excuses of, like, oh, we're injured and we lost this game. And so they don't want this type of energy to stack up. But I do think it's a completely different situation than it was last year. And I don't expect that to be the mentality coming through, carrying forward.
- [10:49]
C
And there's one other play. This isn't a bag on Pauline, but it speaks to the rookie experience. There's a jump ball moment with 2:55 left on the clock. And I'm going to do a breakdown for jump balls because I was sitting there watching, like, screaming because. And this is the point. Sabrina would have been in the right place. So I can't even explain it right now without, you know, drawing up or pulling some clips. But Astine, she doesn't. She should have been boxing Bridget Carlton out and she wasn't. She was standing, like, in the wrong position. And Stewie or someone, some of her veterans should have put her in the right spot. But I don't know if you could teach that in the moment or with enough time if they haven't gone over in practice. And then Bridget Carlton steals the ball, comes down, they end up making a three off of it, gets back to Bridget, and they go up three and the Marine hits the crazy shot. They tie the game again. But when you think about all those small moments where New York had the ball, they should have got that possession, could have scored. Then they would have been up to. So all of those little constant mistakes. And I don't think that's on Pauline. That's on, like, coaching staff teaching. That's on her just being a rookie and not having the experience to know Sabrina Enescu would have absolutely boxed out and been in the right position. So you're just trading experience for. You can't get experience till you get experience.
- [12:03]
B
One thing, if we're going to move the eyeball off of Pauline and more so on the New York Liberty, Chris DiMarco addressed this. Brianna Stewart addressed this. This is two games straight. That New York Liberty have allowed their opponent to put up 90 points, the size that they have, the veteranship that they have, their defense should not be this bad. And Chris DiMarco, you know, addressed this with the public saying, you know, I'm paraphrasing that this is just something that they're going to keep having to go at it, right? They're going to have to keep getting better at it, et cetera. And it's a new system. And of course, they, again, they don't have two pieces of the puzzle that they might have had as they were putting in that system. But that is gonna be something to keep an eye on for the New York Liberty is you have these monstars, but can you stop the ball as well? Okay, let's keep it moving. There was another big game two nights ago. A team that had an opener, home opener, and it was a different result than Portland was. The Dallas Wings. They were without this year's number one pick, AZ Fudd, who was sidelined with a right knee injury. And we did not get any specifics on her from head coach Jose Fernandez. The Wings went on to drop their home opener to the Atlanta Dream. 77, 72. Now, Dallas led in this game. They were up by as much as nine. And through three quarters, they were in this game. And then the fourth quarter came and they forgot to score the ball. Like, they forgot how to score the ball. Uh, they had just 13 points in the fourth quarter to Atlanta's 19. And the dream basically woke up in the second half and we're able to pull this one away. Annie, any updates on AZ's injury before we get into, you know, thoughts on Wings from Lay?
- [13:43]
A
Yeah, I mean, az, from what I both heard from Jose and a conversation outside of that, this is a situation where, like, she had these injuries, like Jose said. And I don't know if he specifically referenced her injuries or if he just was like, this is, you know, us taking, like, a calculated measure. I'm paraphrasing here, everybody, so don't come for me. You can listen to Jose's words verbatim, but he. It was just a calculated measure on the team's part. I think what will be interesting to see is what they do moving forward. If this is a reoccurring thing through the season, if this is something like a protective measure that they take throughout the season, because then that becomes a situation of, okay, you drafted this player first overall, and her availability is, you know, up in the air. Her complete availability, whether or not she's completely at 100% at this point. It definitely from what has been said by the by the Wings is like this is a protective measure. There's nothing more to it. And I guess, you know, we'll see. And their next game is against the the Minnesota Links. And so there's some kind of not drama there, but intrigue there because you're going up against the player that, that got selected number two overall. And the conversation's already like whoa, whoa, whoa. Did was a mistake made. Like should the Wings have have taken Olivia number one overall? And what I'll say to this or my question kind of my thought about this is, is like Olivia really is this like true point guard. She's going to be a beast in this league. Right. And, and how would that work next to Paige? Right. You've got a vet in Odyssey who clearly Odyssey, Arique and Paige are proving themselves to be this very in sync backcourt. I don't know what it would look like with Olivia in there. I truly don't like. I, you know, I can't even speculate about it because I'm like what would that look like and how would that change even how Paige plays and how maybe this team wants to operate really to through Paige. So yeah, long roundabout way of saying I think az this is a protective measure according to what the team said yesterday. And I think the only way to really monitor it is to see what happens moving forward and if this is a reoccurring thing.
- [16:08]
B
That's right. So Azy first tore her right ACL and MCL in April of 2019 at a USA Basketball event. Then she tore the same ACL and her medial meniscus during a UConn practice in 2023. And you know, out of an abundance of caution quote is why the team held her out for that and her long term health. But Anna, you're asking exactly the right questions that we should be asking someone like Lajah Clarendon in terms of a guard that, you know, how do you fit in when you've got these type of scores, the volume scores alongside, you know, Paige and Ari Kay. So what are your thoughts on the wings right now? Because after that Indiana Fever game we all had a fever over the wings. We were like dang, they're hot, they're looking, looking good, et cetera. What are, what are your thoughts here after this Atlanta game?
- [16:57]
C
To Annie's point, I, I, you know, I was a big fan of them picking Olivia Miles. I wanted her to go to Dallas. I do think after watching Paige more and more, she is a point guard. Like, she's the Diana on a team. So I don't think that Olivia and her technically work together for her being like the leader of the team, because it would also shrink Olivia's potential to be like the true point guard she needs. She's more like a Lindsay way than like, let her be Waylon. Like, you don't technically play Waylo and Diana together on USA Basketball. Yes. Like, of course you'd love to have them, but they are like the spearheads of the team. And so when I think about Diana playing with like a Cappy Pondexter, a Penny Taylor, those are the kind of good two pieces you want. But you need Diana to just be the man. Let Diana be Diana. So, like, letting Paige be Paige, I think was really smart. I think it's great to be asking the question about like, health and longevity, something we're probably gonna get into on our Friday episode. So stay tuned. Stick around for that. So, yeah, those are asking the right questions. I think the thing to think about in context is like, we were high in the wings. They played one of the worst offensive teams, like anybody could score in Indiana. So it's fun to play Indiana because it's an all star game, so you gotta be able to put up points. So when I look at, I'm like, okay, they played Indiana, of course, AZ was 3 for 3. They absolutely missed AZ in this game because you want people who can just knock down open shots. And Az Fudd can absolutely like UConn player. If you are open that going in, that is her. And so I think they missed her, particularly in the three point line. They were 12 for 23 against Indiana. Again, it's practice against Indiana, sorry, prove us wrong. Against Atlanta, they're playing a much better defensive team. And so they're four for. What is that, 26 from the three point line. And Atlanta is an aggressive defensive team. They've got way better wing defenders. They. They play a different kind of mentality. You've got Angel Reese there. Overall, you're playing like two opposing defensive squads. So I thought that was a really good test for Dallas. I think this is a game Dallas will want to get back. When you look at the win loss column early in the season, you go, damn, like, that's a win we could have got that we left on the table. So I think they missed az, but I also think I'm not worried about Dallas in terms of like, yeah, they played a much tougher defensive team, so it makes sense that it was much harder to score. They also held them, what, to 77 points. Like, for me, on the flip in Dallas's defense, I'm like, okay, so you have to measure up all that context
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B
when you've got scorers like Alicia Gray and Ryan Howard on squads like, yeah, being able to keep a team under like that, under 80 in itself is impressive. But that all being said, want to say quickly, before we wrap up on the WNBA conversation, shout out to our boy, Ben Pickman. Congratulations to one of the founding members of no off season on getting his first win with the Portland Fire. But quickly to turn it to the college realm. Also, a congrats to Corey Close. UCLA and her have agreed to a contract extension that keeps her with the program through the 2029, 2030 season. Coach Close, of course, you guys know, helped turn UCLA into a consistent national contender, title champion, and elevated the program's profile nationally. She also championed NIL in a way that we haven't quite seen other coaches really care about, ensuring that players are getting paid, people, players are getting visibility, and it's making UCLA a destination because of that. All right, up next, we are going to dive into our conversation around critical media coverage of the W. It's an important one, Y'. All. For such a long time, the media at large covered the WNBA with, quote, unquote, kid gloves, afraid to say anything too critical, less to damage the fragile state of the league. Right. I kind of like to use the analogy. There was a lot of bubble wrap around the league. A little bit of just, let's handle with care. And it made sense. When you think about women's sports, women's sports leagues, and the fragility of fandom, the fragility of financial investment, you did want to ensure that, as you talked about a product, you talked about it in a way that people wanted to buy in. And so now 30 years in, things have changed. People are bought in. People want to be a part of this. And it's not just the fans, it's businesses, it's brands, it's. It's a ton of folks. And media coverage is bought in, too. And because of that, the media coverage is changing. Because when you media coverage fully buys in and it is getting fully bought in, that means all that bubble wrap, cut it off, let's play with the toy. Let's actually examine what's going on here. And we've gotta ask the question, is this a good thing? And what does it say about the state of women's basketball? So we're here to get into it from all of these particular perspectives. What I think is really cool. So first we've got Lajah, who is a player turned media member. And you remember what it's like to be a player being covered. You remember specifically what it's like to be a player being covered during a very personal moment in your personal life as well as your basketball. And now you're a media member that is covering these players. And you know, the information you want to share, the type of coverage you want to have, and also the tension of getting that information sometimes, you know, from players, et cetera, to the fans. Then we've got Annie Kossable. Annie Kossable has been your quintessential reporter. Right in the locker rooms, in the hallways of these buildings, talking to coaches, talking to players. I mean, I don't know if you have a notepad, but probably with the notepad, you know, like, just, you know, think about when you think journalist. This is what you've done, Annie. You're writing pieces, you're getting criticized, but you're writing it for the purpose of getting the information out on top of analyzing the game. And then you've got me someone that is new to this space. Not even just new in the regards that I'm new in the media space. I'm new. I'm. I'm one of the more newer people to the wnba. There was a survey years ago that the athletic did at one of the Sweet 16s, and ultimately it was asking these Sweet 16 NCAA players, do you watch the WNBA? This was just a few years ago. And a lot of them, majority of them said no, no. And I think that this is something that was undersold and under discussed of how many college players do, do not watch the W. Whether it's because in the summer, that's their off time from the collegiate experience that they had. A lot of them. It wasn't a feasible goal. Right. It wasn't something that. I think only in the past few years has the W become more accessible one. You can see it in spaces and places that aren't lifetime television.
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A
Yep.
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Right. And you can actually access it on. I mean, Lazer, you laughing, but I'm being serious.
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C
No, I know it because I lived it, that's why.
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A
Right.
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Like it was hard to find games. It was, you know, whatever. And then if you lived in a city or you played league pass just
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A
became available to players.
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B
That's. That's exactly, exactly. So I'm coming from a perspective. I'm. I'm newer to watching the WNBA more consistently. And I'm also new media. I'm in this space where I don't write, I analyze, but I'm. And I'm on a TV analyzing, but I'm also a podcast podcaster. And podcasting about the W is a new thing because podcast media is very different than TV media and that's important and that's very different than written media. And we have a fan base that is learning all of these things. They're experiencing all three of us in very different ways and all the spaces in which we operate in very different ways. So I lay all of that to just give the perspectives that are gonna be a part of this conversation.
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C
And that was amazing. Context setting though, like for that was phenomenal.
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B
I appreciate that. Yes, thank you, thank you. Okay, so where we're going to start this basically is one. We've been wanting to have this conversation
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because we're saying it.
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Okay. We've been saying it and we're. Yeah, okay, you can. Okay, let me just get to it. Let's get to it.
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C
Wait.
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A
I just have to say, before I even started at the Athletic, it was like I was days away from starting at the Athletic and I was like,
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I need a podcast.
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A
And I knew I was going to be on this one. And this was the conversation I was talking about having. This right here is the one I've been dying to have.
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C
Danny the manifester. Yes, there you go.
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B
There you go. It's important to have it. It's important to have it because. And let's just be real, I want to give this disclaimer. This conversation is not the end all be all right. If anything, it's the door opener. This is going to be a consistently iterating conversation. And because we are all going to be learning how to have good dialogue around women's basketball and all of the spaces we operate in are going to continuously iterate based off of these kind of conversations. So absolutely, please feed, give us feedback. We'd love to hear. What are you seeing in this conversation around the wnba? What are the things that you like? What are the things you don't like? What are the things that you have tension with that you understand? But you're like, oh, it's still. It's tough for you to accept. Or things that you accept that you're like, should I be accepting this? I don't know. Let's get into something that I think is a really great jump off point that happened recently that we've seen recent social media exchange between South Carolina Head coach Dawn Staley and CBS sports reporter Matt Lively. That kind of blew up in the W social media space. The context is the Valkyries waived a fan favorite and Kate Martin, who has since landed with the Los Angeles Sparks, and Matt Lively tweeted out, kate Martin is the final cut from the Valkyries. They opt to keep Caitlin Chen and Leticia Mejir over Martin. The move makes sense in terms of need, but Martin is an incredibly popular player with a fan base that shows up in every city. That was a quote. Now, Lateecia Mejir played for coach Staley back in 2019-2023 and Coach Staley responded to Matt's tweet by saying, quote, not cool to actually use other players names. Specifically Latecia me Here for your personal preface. I imagine she meant preference, but she said preference. I hope you cov if you cover the Valkyries, you could unbiasedly do so moving forward. End quote. Now, Lajah, you know Matt. You know Matt personally. You've done TV work with him, especially with his work as the Valkyrie sideline reporter, and has also hosted the Valkyries pregame and post game show. When you saw Matt's tweet, what did you see and did you believe that dawn was justified in this response or was she off base?
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C
When I first saw it, I had to read it a couple times because I had to like, do the double take thing. Or I was like, wait, what did I miss? Especially with, with social. Like, you do the whole, like, you jump in, you jump, you're off threads for, you know, an hour and you're like, what? What did I miss? So I read it a couple times and I was like, okay, Kate Martin, the final cut. I know this is Matt. I kind of thought about, wait, do I have my own bias? Because I know Matt, like that whole like analyzing thing. Loved on. And I was also like, she said Caitlin Chen's name also. So that stuck out to me. I ultimately landed on. I don't think there's anything wrong with Matt's tweet. I think it was literally just stating facts. Like I thought the things I took away from. He said, Kate's the final cut. I think it's surprising for a lot of folks with Kate, it made sense with the need to keep Caitlyn and Leticia. The thing I thought that stuck out about Matt's tweet was like, that Kate Martin's really popular. It was like, we actually don't need her to be popular in the league to sell tickets anymore. That was the thing that kind of felt a little random to me. He was getting at, like, she's a fan base that shows up in every city. We know her jersey was, like, one of the top sellers last year. So it's, like, surprising to see a player cut. Like, I was at the Falcons game the other day, and, like, I was like, damn, still a lot of K. Martin jerseys in here. Like, she's on a new team now. So that stuck out to me and of, like, the growth and the skill set of the league is like, we don't actually need, you know, Kate Martin's traveling band of folks to show up in order to sell tickets in certain places because, like, the league is in good hands now. And that's really stuck out to me. The other thing I think about our roles. We know dawn is going to protect her players till the end of the earth, and I love Don for that. Like, be who you are, Dawn. I don't think it wasn't not cool. He said Caitlin Chin's name also is literally facts. She got cut. There's not room for Kate Martin. There are too many wings on that team. Sorry, Gabby Williams took your job. Leticia Mihra can play the five. Like, sorry, Kate. Kate was going to land somewhere. It's sad, but I thought at the end of the day, people are going to play their roles. Like, Don is always going to be that person who rides for her players, like, to the end of the earth. And that is what Don will do. Not even right, wrong, indifferent. Like, she didn't necessarily. I think coming in an unbiased way, I don't actually think he was biased. And I think some of the growth in our league, actually, and the criticism is for us to be okay critiquing black women, too, and. Okay, critiquing, like, the Dons of the world. Like, our legends, like, our people who we, like, uphold with so much respect. Like, I love Don. I was coached by her. But, like, being like, ah, you overreached with that one. Don, like, love you. But, like, he wasn't being. He wasn't being biased. Like, that was just a good tweet. Like, we can start to have those conversations and that can be okay. And it's like, the room didn't fall. Like, yeah, right. We can hold the ra. We can hold all the things. Like, it's not always the racism of it. We can talk about all of it.
- [30:46]
B
Now. This is why this situation is perfectly a great way to launch here, right? Because we've now established, I think things that I agree with you of like, people have their roles to play. Dawn Staley is a mama bear. She's gonna come and protect her girls. And it is important to note that even in protecting Camilla Cardoso. In a quote back in April about Cardoso's future with Chicago, here's a direct quote that Dawn Staley said. I think this year is probably going to be a great year for her, statistically speaking, as well as comfort and the fact that angel isn't on the roster. I'm not saying that in a bad way. It just leaves more opportunity for Camilla to spread her wings. She can be more of a focal point, end quote. Now, Annie, I' ma turn it to you because the thing that I would say, it's one thing to be a mama bear and, you know, want to protect Leticia me here, but it's the. All the. I mean, it's an accusation of Matt doing his job in a biased way because he mentioned Leticia me here, which then now puts his role in. As a journalist in jeopardy right now. He's open for criticism. And this is something that you have experienced in covering the league and particularly players like angel in Chicago. And this is something that I want you to kind of. What did you see when you read Dawn Staley's response from your experience and what you've experienced over, you know, the years? What did you see in that tweet?
- [32:27]
A
So let me start by saying, and I've said this to you guys off air. I've said this a million times. Like, if I'm going to be out here being critical of this league, then I have to be comfortable receiving criticism as well. Like, I think you can't dish it if you're not willing to take it. And I, I can. I can handle that. It's not always fun, but I can handle that. But when I saw Dawn's tweet to Matt and even so, two tweets, when I saw her tweet to Matt, my immediate thought was like, damn, I wish more coaches, especially coaches of Dawn's stature, would, instead of having this. This reaction would in private or however you know is appropriate be like, talking to their players of, like, this is. This is what's coming with your level of professionalism. And you, my, my like player, someone I care about, you can handle it. This is what comes with professionalism. Because to me, to your point, of dawn being this protective coach who, who is always known for advocating for her players, she shouldn't. I'm not saying she needs to stop doing that, but what I hope to See. And whether, again, we see it outwardly or it's something that happens behind the scenes, my immediate reaction to damn, this is sending the wrong message to young players. Because Matt's tweet wasn't, to your point, Leija, an indictment or a biased tweet. It was just assessing the situation. And I think when Don posts something like she posts, it sends the antennas up for players that they're under attack when they're not. Like, this was not a situation where Leticia was under attack. She deserves to be on this roster. And as we talked about following their first game, their first two games, it's clear why she made this roster. And so that's what I hope to see from coaches across the board, starting at the high school level. Now prepare these players for the criticism that's going to come with being a professional. And the second point to that, in terms of her second tweet, talking about, you know, Camilla's junior season, she was right. This move by the sky, as all parties have been saying, was a move for both sides. Angel, as we've seen in these first games with the Dream, is in a better situation. She not only systematically is in a better situation, but you could tell from, like, a personal standpoint she is. Is thriving alongside these players because, and this is just an early assessment, but she's allowed to be herself in a way that maybe didn't exist in Chicago because Chicago wasn't. Wasn't being led by a bunch of young stars in the way that this Dream Team is. And Chicago also didn't have this coach in Carl, who is someone angel right away is coming into and is bought into. Right? So all around the board, this going back to Don's evaluation, it was accurate and it was fair. And people lost their mind out of, again, this protective instinct that they have for angel or for Camila or for whoever. And as fans, you're entitled to be protective, but in the media, we have a job to do and that y' all gotta understand that we're evaluating situations, all of it.
- [36:18]
B
So, yeah, no, I'm with you. I. You. You hit the nail on the head, all, both of you, in saying this was not an indictment. And I particularly love, Annie, this concept of preparing players for this level of critique and observation and fact telling, even when it is not in your benefit. And it's not just the players that have to be prepared. I think more than anything, it's the fan base. And what happened in that tweet that I saw. And I also know Matt personally and Lajah you mentioned it. Like, I had to check my bias of, like, I know Matt deeply cares to tell these women's stories in the right way. I've seen the way that he is careful of, you know, asking questions and minding boundaries in being a sideline reporter for the Valkyries. And I have a lot of respect for that. Cause I've seen people not do that. So I can. I've seen that. But that's my personal opinion. But looking at it directly, the move. This is Matt's line. The move makes sense in terms of need. That is not negative. That is actually saying they are justifiably on the team over Martin. It makes sense to cut Martin over Caitlin Chen and Leticia Mijer because they are needed. And what I fear in the midst of social media, in the era of social media, people don't read.
- [37:47]
A
They don't.
- [37:48]
B
People don't read. They don't read. And what is so dangerous. But here's the thing. And what is so dangerous about having someone as prominent and as respected and as just generally thoughtful in everything that she says, as Dawn Staley says, something like this makes people. It gives them the pass. It gives them that. When you're in fourth grade and you need that big old key or whatever, the thing to go to the bathroom, that's what she gave to be like, I don't even need to read what Matt said. If Don Staley said that you came for Leticia, then you came for Leticia, then you came. Right? And I am justified because the great Dawn Staley was mad, so I'm gonna be mad with her. And I think that that's where I really struggled with that level of a green pass for folks to just jump on Matt Lively, a guy that's trying to come up as a really respectable reporter and is. And is itching like he was. I. I just saw him at the Press the last preseason presser, and he was sad that he's not getting to be on the road for the, like, some of these games coming up. Like, he is genuinely, you know, excited about covering this team. And so it just felt like that moment was gone and that was missed. And I want to. I want to keep it going and talk about how this. This is a, like, microcosm of some larger issues and larger trends that we're starting in space, in this space, particularly where fans are having a very hard time with anything that kind of leans critical. And I think it starts with. I'll start really quickly with where I think it starts. And then Annie, I Want you to go first and what you've seen and then you gotta lay it out for us as a player. Because that is a very particular perspective that is important. And I particularly, because I think I know why there is a mistrust of the media. Right. But I'm jumping ahead of myself. I'm already thinking about this conversation.
- [39:57]
C
Nuanced criticism. I'm ready.
- [39:59]
B
Okay, so here's the thing. So here's the thing. I think that for a very one context, we are women. This is a women's league. And it is a very unique space in which I sometimes feel strange if I. Y', all. Did y' all see the Nafisa Collier, I think it was Sports Illustrated shoot that just recently came out. Have y' all seen it?
- [40:24]
A
I haven't like read anything, but have
- [40:27]
B
you seen the photos?
- [40:28]
A
Yeah.
- [40:28]
B
Have you seen Angel Reese's Victoria's Secret layout?
- [40:31]
A
Yeah.
- [40:31]
B
Right?
- [40:32]
C
Yes. Have you?
- [40:33]
B
As a reporter that is analyzing these players, I have to fight to not leave all the Heart eyes emojis on their pages. Cuz it's like that would be inappropriate, right? Like from the way that we have generally and generally used looked at media, we're not supposed to be quote unquote fans and that would be fan behavior. But because the WNBA was so. There was a mixture of fandom and the folks that were telling the stories of the WNBA for a very long time. There were, it was this gray line has been crossed in the way that the media has traditionally discussed the wnba in the sense that it was a little bit of cheerleading, it was a little bit of. Let me tell you guys about this amazing league that you don't know and these amazing players. And it was understandably so. You needed that. You needed that media personality that was all about the positive aspects of the game. Don't talk about the negatives because you're trying to get people over here, you're trying to get people bought in. That gray line in the W is now being looked at by folks that have never crossed that line in other spaces. And they're being like, hold on, hold on, hold on. That's not how the media is supposed to interact. You're not supposed to be asking or interacting with these players as if they're your friends. You're not supposed to be interacting and only talking about the positives. You've got to be real about what's going on. And now there's money. Oh, we gotta talk about it. Have you earned that money? Are you worth that money? What money is gonna be moved to get people around you. Now it's gonna be discussed in a contract way. And I see this because I cover the NBA and I cover the wnba, and there are things that are said in the NBA space. I just did a podcast about what teams have to do in the off season for the NBA, and we're talking about Dante DiVincenzo, a guy that has played his off for New York, played his off for the warriors, and now has played his ass off for the Timberwolves. Just gets hurt, and his contract might be moved for money purposes. And I literally, in the podcast went, oh, this is so unfair to him. But in. And my co host told me, you gotta look at him like a contract. Ooh.
- [42:58]
C
Ew.
- [42:59]
B
Ooh. But this is.
- [43:00]
C
This is the way. But ew. I'm a player.
- [43:02]
B
I know. Yeah, I get it. You get. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. And so in the major professional leagues, especially in America, the NBA, the NFL, the NHL, mlb, WNBA is in that too. And that is gonna be changing the way fans are hearing these players talked about. And I think that that is what I'm seeing. But, Annie, you start talk about what it's been like in your journey as a reporter and what you've seen. And first I want to know, how do you approach your job? Like, what are the essence and the pillars of what you do as a reporter that covers the wnba, just so folks can understand that context.
- [43:46]
A
Yeah. So I've had so many iterations of coverage or, like, journeys in the wnba in my coverage. When I graduated college, I could not get a full time job. I was trying to get a broadcasting job. Could not. And I ultimately ended up freelancing. And one of my first written stories ever was on Capi Pondexter when she signed with the Sky. And at that point in my career, I was so young, I was fresh out of college. My conditioning had told me, oh, to make it, girl, you're gonna be covering the NBA one day. You're gonna be an NBA sideline reporter. Like, that was my dream because that's where I saw women. Like, I didn't see a ton of women writers, and I didn't see writers covering the W. And so my immediate thought was, like, that's where I was going to end up. And so when I first stepped into WNBA coverage, I was like, oh, my God, I've got to, like, do my. Do my. I have to serve this league and uplift this league. Like, that mentality that was programmed in my brain because to your point of where the league was at. And as a woman, you come in and you're like, oh, you relate in a way. Like, I remember my first full time job, I was making more than the rookies in the wnba and I was like, hold up, hold up. And then even in newsrooms, the battles I was facing, I'd then go to practice and you'd be like, oh, wait, there's so much synergy as a woman that we were all feeling. And I got to the point where, you know, once I got a full time position with the Sun Times after a year in Mississippi, which is like a side story, but I got back to Chicago and when I got tapped to cover the Chicago sky full time, I at that point had beat writer experience covering high school sports down in Mississippi, men's and women's. I had experience covering the NBA. I had been in all these different locker rooms and spaces. And so when I showed up to cover the sky, I was like, like the, the way I do serve this league, the best way I can uplift this league is by covering this league the same way I would cover anything else. The good and the bad, the positive and the ugly. Like, not shying away from anything that could necessarily bring a negative scope to a. A player, a team, the league. Because it' not my job to protect. It's my job to document the truth. And not everybody is going to like the truth, but it's my job to again, do the reporting, talk to the sources, use what I observe firsthand to share the truth of a team, of a league, et cetera. And so what happened in my tenure covering the sky was so interesting. That first year they win the title, the next couple years they lose all their stars. And I was getting dragged at that point in my career for being too critical of the sky. Like, if that was the criticism I was receiving back then was like, annie hates the sky. She's too critical of the sky. Da da da da. Fast forward to this, like, modern era. Now I'm getting dragged because I'm, quote, unquote, in bed with the sky. And again, going back to what I first said when we started this podcast was like, like, if I'm gonna be critical, I have to be okay with receiving criticism. But what people have to understand, nothing I report is without multiple sources, without layers of sourcing observation, due diligence, and it's not always going to be liked by the readers, by the fans, and that's okay. But I need everybody to understand, like, I'm not out here, you know, cutting corners in terms of my reporting, I'm just not. And that's like. That's all I have, is my reputation. And so you, as a journalist, you protect that by doing your due diligence and weathering storms like I've weathered, knowing that everything I've reported on, I could back up with adequate sourcing. And, you know, it's just. It's a hot. It's like it's a roller coaster. But again, I do the best job I can do by reporting the good, the bad, and the ugly, and letting the chips fall where they may.
- [48:47]
B
I appreciate that context, and I think that that's when you said that. But if you can be critical about a team, that you have to be ready for the criticism back. I think the criticism back is the part that we're struggling, that I think fan bases are struggling with, in the sense of. Is your criticism back. Also met with due diligence, also met with fairness, also met with truly examining your biases. And. And I'm curious, why do you. When you think about the work you're doing to tell the full truth about the league, the teams, the players you're covering, why is it a disservice when folks shy away from not giving that critical coverage?
- [49:34]
A
I think because the best way I could think about it is this, right? We've all been in situations, We've all been in jobs where we weren't a fit or, like, where something had to shake us loose to go on to be rerouted, to be reprogrammed, to find our lane. Like, for me, again, it was starting and thinking, oh, my future is gonna be as a sideline reporter. That's all I wanted to do. And I had all these shaking moments that rerouted me and put me exactly where I was supposed to be. And so when I think about honest, fair coverage that maybe not everyone agrees with, I think it is literally our duty to cover the facts, because those facts are going to hold the powers that be accountable when they need accountability. And it's also going to hold teams accountable when teams need accountability. And it's going to impact league teams, players, in a way that is going to, in a way, like, help the ecosystem kind of move in the way that it should. Like, I always think about Jimmy Butler and his era with the Chicago Bulls, and at the end, how things got so contentious with Fred Hoiberg. Like, Fred was not the right coach in Chicago, and Jimmy did not hold back about that. Like, he.
- [51:12]
C
He.
- [51:12]
A
He got, you know, very vocal about issues, and there were reports about locker room issues. And Jimmy being a problem, et cetera, Da, da, da, da. And all these reporters who were covering that obviously had sourcing to tell this story. And ultimately, Jimmy moves on from the Bulls and ends up, I believe, with the 76ers and then the Heat, and he ends up being the player he was destined to be and found the team he was destined to be with. Okay. And shying away from covering the truth of that moment not only is a disservice to yourself as a journalist, because it's literally your job to report the truth, but it's a disservice to the actual ecosystem of the team. Like, Jimmy needed to go elsewhere. And reporting that does not make whoever's reporting it a scumbag. It's like you are reporting what you know in a moment, and then it has the power to impact the future of a team, a league, a player, et cetera. And that's, I think, what the W deserves, is that level of accountability, transparency, et cetera.
- [52:33]
C
Yeah.
- [52:34]
B
Yesterday we were talking about this, Annie. Yes. I mean, snaps to all of that. And you were the one that mentioned that Jimmy went to Minnesota first before he went to Philly. You were absolutely right. And it's important to note that after he left Chicago that very next year, he got 10 votes for MVP. Um, he had never gotten MVP votes in his career at that point, but he gets 10 votes for MVP in that first year with Minnesota. Defensive player of the year votes, all stars, third team, all NBA and second team, all defense. He immediately rose as a result of his departure. And I think that you're right in that the proper criticism does move the needle and it holds folks accountable in the right way. And, Lajah, you always talk about nuanced criticism, and I think that this is a great transition into. You can tell that story about Jimmy Butler, you can tell any story about any athlete in a way that tells the facts without saying that they're a P. O. S. Right. Like these people are terrible humans and that they don't deserve their money or that they are, you know, whatever it is, you can do that in a way that is not negative and surface level and not researched, or you can do it in the way that Annie's talking about, in which you are doing your due diligence, you're doing your research, you're presenting the information in such a way that the fan is informed, but the subject is not denigrated other than however the fan decides to take that information and place that in their mind. So when you say nuanced criticism, what do you mean by that? And why is it important?
- [54:15]
C
Oh, God, it's important. It's like, there's so many thoughts. I have one. It's like, I almost feel like people need a degree in sociology to cover the wnba. There's no, like, barriers to actually get in. But as I saw the media coverage rise in, what, 23, 24, my last couple years in LA, I was so frustrated because it was like, people don't understand, like, the. You need to understand stereotype threat with our league. And this is the hard part with the context, is that, like, you are covering a league full of black women and queer people. And so that's the part where, like, for Matt, for example, this is a white man talking about a league and a black person and an Asian woman, right? So it's like, he's not talking about it in that way, but the way we read things is through a lens. Because as black people, like, we've been attacked. We've experienced racism for so long as a women's lead, we've experienced insane misogyny. Insane misogynor. Misogynor is what you do to black women when you combine race and our gender. And so in those ways, it's like, it's not as simple as take the bubble wrap off, right? It's. There's growing pains. It's. There's a reason. Like, it's like, people who have been through a hell of trauma, they're not just armored up for no reason. They're not just like, we have.
- [55:39]
B
That's important. That's right. That's important. Comes from somewhere.
- [55:43]
C
Yeah. Like, the fans in our league, the players in our league. Think of what dawn has probably been through in her entire life, being a women's basketball player now turned coach, and the amount of racism, what she had to deal with, Gina walking in her face and not beating his ass on site, like, in front of thousands of people on tv. Do you know how much, like, restraint
- [56:04]
A
that took for her?
- [56:05]
C
And she was saying, I'll beat Gino's ass, right? Like, oh, my God, it would just make me bubble inside of, like, oh, the world is not prepared. Like, we talk about how the WNBA is a microcosm for the world, and then we're putting, like, gasoline on it. When Caitlin came in and the racism and the media coverage, it was just like this. I think of the Elmo meme, where it's just like fire burning. That's what it felt like to me because I was like, oh, people are not prepared to understand the nuances that go into our league. And so the story that really stuck out to me was like, is back sometime in 2020ish in the pandemic. I have a friend who covers the warriors. And he, to your point, Andy, like, he covers it. He's a black man. He just covers it of like, why aren't y' all doing this? Why isn't that happening? Because rightfully so, he's thinking of just like, this is how media works. He's media trained, he does a podcast, he's a beat writer. And so from that lens, he would talk about the wnba. And I would get really protective. Cause I'd be like, ah, hold, ah, ah, hold on now, sir. We'd be in our little walks in the pandemic. Cause all we could do is go outside, walk together. So we'd walk, we'd talk. And he was criticizing our media. And this was before I was even a media member. He was like, why don't y' all don't tell enough hard hitting stories? Like y' all aren't critical enough. Like so and so shoots whatever percent. And I was like, I know, but like, you have to understand when you talk about a women's basketball player shooting percentage, let's say, for example, a black woman's shooting percentage or even there are women and let's say she airballs in a game or she's 0 for 7 from 3. The stereotype about women's basketball players compared to men is already that we're worse shooters. We're not as skilled. Right. We can't dunk. So when you just throw that lens on there, it automatically reinforces the stereotype that people have about women's basketball. They're not as good. And so that's why I think the nuance is important. And we've grown to a place, I think, like, that was back in 2021. We've grown to a place now where like, we're seeing how good our league is. And I think this is the growing pains now. We're at a point where the reason we're having this conversation is because we want fans to understand. And like, I really truly want them to understand because I get it. Of like, where we have come from and why we have armor and almost like, be able to take a deep breath and say, like, okay, look at how far we've come. Look at this CBA we just signed. Look at the growth of our league. Look at these black women, all of these women, all of these queer black women, all these folks making the money we finally deserve, like, do you know the deal? Exhale. Like, just to see Asia Wilson make that money that so many people. To your point, Annie, like, you identified with the players because you're having the same experience in the world. That's how the W is a microcosm for the world. Anyone who has experienced any form of oppression, marginalization, has felt othered, has felt not paid enough. Men included, right? You can understand what it's like through watching the WNBA struggle, lie. That's what the W does. It gives you, like, we're like the voice of the people. And so you identify with us. And so in the ecosystem of all the fans, all the media, all the people, it's like, I want us to get to this point where we take a collective, like, woosa. Okay, guys. Like, we almost need, like, a somatic therapy session as a group to be like, you guys. Ooh, look at all we've been through, right?
- [59:27]
B
And also a level of everyone, get out your purses. We're going to look through all the lenses that we've accumulated over the years, right? All of these lenses that impact how we're reading into a particular article or reading into a particular tweet, reading into a particular anything in the ways in which this league is covered. And I think this is what's also added another layer to this. Annie is referencing a little bit of what I was alluding to earlier of the tiers of what is reporting. And I put reporting in quotes. I am putting air quotes up for those of you not watching, but rather listening, because the league, oh, is it filled with drama? It's filled with all of this other juicy information that has nothing to do with basketball, right? This is a league that players date each other. This is a league where there's. Because it is so small, the incestuous nature of it is inevitable, right? There's all these relationships that, you know, exist and in all types of ways. Friendships that have broken up and relationships that have broken up and former coaches, they may have had beef or whatever the case may be on the men's side. And I keep saying, I'm only bringing this up. I know people are like, why is she talking about the mnba? It's because I started covering the mnba. My reporting started on the NBA side in the G League, and then up to the NBA before I got to the W, before I got to women's basketball. And there are things where I'm hearing folks talk about, you know, so and so, so and so, they don't get along. They Got beef. They have problems. Right. You think about the Kevin Durant leaked tweets situation in Houston. That was covered with depth. People are still trying to figure out what was happening. Right. But it feels as if a reporter trying to find out what's happening in a locker room would be critiqued as you're being messy and you're not being a reporter. How would you approach this conversation?
- [61:38]
A
So I'm so glad you're bringing this up because there are so many layers to even this side of it. Not every WNBA team has a traditional beat reporter that covers that team. That's still an area of lack that exists in this league. Okay, so let's start there. So for me, when I was covering what. What constitutes as a traditional beat reporter in my mind is someone who is on the ground every day, on the road, literally. It's their full time job to be with that team. What you learn about a team when you are spending that much time with them? You guys, I spent more time with the Chicago sky during my years covering that team than I did with my own family. James Wade, Kalia Kopper, you know, go down the list. I was seeing them on a, on a more regular basis than I was seeing my own friends and family. So I say that to say it starts there. That's. That's how much time you are with a team. And when you are with a team that much, you observe little things about this team. Everything from, you know, personality traits to players. Is there a vibe off what's up? And then that frames your questioning. Okay. And so, so for me, when I was with the sky that much, I was able to learn things about the team through observation that I then took to sources asked questions like, hey, is what I'm seeing accurate? What's going on here? What's going on there? And then that shapes your storytelling, your reporting. And so while I was covering the Chicago Sky, I was the only traveling beat reporter every single game. So what I learned about the team was different than what some of my other peers were learning because they just weren't awarded, afforded the same opportunity to cover the team like I was. So there were instances over the years, starting with when that criticism came of, oh, Annie's too critical of the sky to all the way up until more recently, where it's, oh, Annie hates Angel Reese. Like, that's come because I was afforded the opportunity to be this close with the team where I observe things and then report on them from there. So anyways, I say all of that to say, when you're the only one who has the freedom to cover a team like that. You're then maybe the only one who is reporting on it with such a critical lens that it then to outsiders looks like, well, why is Annie doing it this way when everyone else is doing it that way? And what I want people to understand is, is you are entitled to your opinion. I would never take that away from someone, but I really hope people can understand that for me, no part of this job is taken lightly. And nothing I'm reporting is coming from a lack of work put in to understand the dynamic of a story. And the last thing I'll say about this is for you. Laysha, too, you could speak to this. There is not a single. There is not a single team in this league that does not deal with locker room issues. This is a commonplace, normal thing on every single team. Every single team deals with it. It affects teams differently. The 2024 Sky. Marina Mabry demanded a trade from the team because this was a team that she was not. Like, things were not working for her there. Okay? That is one reflection of how messy the sky got in 2024. Okay? But there's messiness that exists in every team. But when there's not a beat reporter there to cover, goes unreported.
- [65:37]
C
Do you know the amount of times when I played that we said, thank God we don't have media covered. Like, thank God because of stuff was happening. This was something players would actually say. Like, I would be watching an ESPN or something, and I would know what was going on in locker rooms in teams, and I'd be like, ooh, the fact that that's not. One, I'd be like, that's crazy. That's not covered. And then two, I'd be like, oh, my God. Than thank God we don't have national media coverage. Because I would have been watching this story on TV right now again and again and again because of the coverage, which should be happening. Right?
- [66:10]
A
But that's. But now we're here, right? And that's the thing I'll double down on is, like, even using the Kevin Durant example, like, this isn't about Kevin Durant being a good or a bad guy or Draymond Green being a good or a bad guy. I don't get a. I don't, like, know any of these people personally. It is not about, like, judging someone's character. It's. But reporting on locker room dynamics, reporting on players not being a fit with a team is not about character. It's about what's Actually going on within the dichotomy of a team. And that is reportable information, especially when you're someone who can source it, who can stand on it, who. Who. Who learns and understands these things before reporting on them.
- [67:00]
C
This is like the growing pains to me of the W, talking about the context of where our league was and now where it is. We're at the national attention. It's grown over the years. It's been like getting to the point, and we've blown up. We're in the big leagues now. Let's all look around and be like, we've got our big girl pants on. We are here. We have a legitimate cba. We have national media coverage. And with that, including the dawn tweet, are growing pains. We've all been athlete. We've been through some stuff in our life. To your point, Annie, where it's uncomfortable, where we're going through growing pains. And I think to speak more directly to Chicago is like, it wasn't cool that Angel Reese talked about her players out loud. Like, that wasn't cool. Regardless of what was happening, she broke the code. Yes.
- [67:41]
A
Right. And that's what I reported in that. And it got so much flack. And what I'll say is, you know, people. There were a couple things people really took issue with, and the one was the headline. There are a lot of instances, guys, I want you guys to know I'm not writing my headlines now.
- [68:01]
B
I'm not trying to get important to know.
- [68:02]
A
I'm. I'm not trying to get a free pass here, because there are instances in which I do write headlines, but I'm just bringing that context to the table. And the other thing is when you. The other thing that got flack in that story was people called me out a ton for saying, like, oh, angel didn't trash all her teammates. She called attention to Sloot's age, and she mentioned them needing to bring in new talent, which, again, is acknowledging something within your teammates is lacking. So, okay, I receive your guys feedback. And what I'll say is, again, to Laysha's point, it wasn't that angel was wrong. She was not wrong. No one thought she was wrong. I never thought she was wrong. The reason this became a story is the same reason it became a story when Jimmy Butler did it, is because you don't talk about your teammates publicly. You don't talk about inner workings publicly in that way. And so it was the fashion in
- [69:12]
B
which she went about.
- [69:13]
A
And you guys are allowed to disagree with me. I am okay with People disagreeing with me. But that is where why that became such a big story. Because that to Laysha's point, was the code that was broken that the locker room itself had issues with. And that's what I reported from there is like that locker room was not okay with how that was handled.
- [69:40]
C
But even Xena just saying it's the way she went about it. Think about how many times black women and women have heard that. It's not what you said, it's how you delivered it. Like that's all that nuance. That's like we carry a history with us and we need to grow in. My other point is like that just flags for me, Zena. Like there's nothing wrong with that. But how it's like, ooh, it like rubs us. We get like activated because we've heard that over and over. It's so long.
- [70:04]
B
We are tone police more than anyone. Our words are policed more than anyone. Our body language is policed more than anyone. And I do believe you think that this all flows exactly as you're saying, Lei. And even if the words are black and white, the gray of it is where our personal experiences and traumas reflect back on us and how we're looking at this information.
- [70:26]
C
Cause in that way I'm like, I'm not gonna Gaslight fans either. And people aren't understanding why you feel that way. But it's almost like a more understanding so then we can make more sense of it overall. And then my other point with Annie when you were talking is like, I have to talk from a player perspective. When you were like the B writer who's there there, I was like, like, I. I've struggled. One being me.
- [70:47]
A
They hated me being there.
- [70:48]
C
Yeah, I'm like, like, I'm so cast out of the world I was in. I still know people, but I viscerally feel that like, oh, we could come in the last 15 minutes of practice.
- [70:57]
B
I'm like, what is this?
- [70:58]
C
Like, I want to see the practice. I want to know what you're doing in shoot around. Xena knows what the Valkyries always be like, let us in. I want to know. I. Because I've been there. I want to know the entire scouting so I can see it differently. But now I'm on the media side, it's like, that's not appropriate for you to know all that because you're technically media. And now that we're jumping into the big, big leagues, I see how uncomfortable players can get with media because it is their job to be there. And to watch what you're doing on practice. I'm like, I don't really want you as a. As a beat writer to be watching all of that body language. Like, I. I'm like, ah, this is the job of the media. But as a player, when you're in shoot around, let's say, for example, they switch up the starting lineup and you're. You're there maybe at the last 15 minutes where they're going over stuff. And that's something that Annie sees, and that's Annie's job to report on as a player. I'm like, damn.
- [71:50]
A
Which happened, by the way.
- [71:51]
C
Yes.
- [71:51]
B
Oh. Oh.
- [71:52]
C
I'm thinking of myself the way, you know, when I was in Atlanta and it was like me and Renee Montgomery and Nikki Collin was switching lineups and, like, if a beat reporter had been there, they get to see all of that nuance. They get to see your body language, how you respond. They get to ask another teammate, like, what do you think about the starting lineup? Which is happening the way the coach went about it? That's all this, like, nuance that's happening. And as a player, I feel protective of that now. I see the way, like, NBA, these other leagues don't always do media or they just. They're very, like, unfriendly with media at times. And I think that's where in the w there's growth for players too now, because we've been so, like, let's give all of our time to media. Let's grow this league. Let's talk to every single fan. And now players have to learn of, like, ooh, media's. They're not our enemy, but they're not necessarily your friend. They have a job to do. They play a very specific role in the ecosystem. And because our league is queer, and I mean that in all the sense of the word. To your point, zeed and all the gray that we're in. When you were talking earlier, I was like, this is so queer. The fact that we have, like, these dynamics of, like, friendshipy. I want to do the hard eyes because we love the piece of color, because we stan her as a black woman finally getting all the love. It's like. Like, it's just queer. And our league in that way compared to the NBA is like, we are not the NBA. Like, we are a queer league in every sense of the word, regardless of your sexual orientation. And that's something to, like, carry with a badge of honor and be like, maybe we do have lines that are a bit more blurred and that's okay. How do you still have boundaries within that? Like, because we do identify with each other. Like, how do we just understand that entire picture and context and still show up and do our jobs, still have healthy boundaries and understand that we can't just put an MBA and a WNBA lens because they are two very different leaders. They're very different. Right. They're not the same.
- [73:39]
B
Now the thing that I also want to hit on is what you are alluding to about how both of you have alluded to how critical coverage is important for the growth of the league. We have seen, we always talk about, oh, the growth of the league. There's more games available. There's a lot of players, there's more teams. Like we could, you know, like we could do that. Right, right. But the real thing is there's more money. There's money, right. We could just be like, yeah, like what, what do the new kids say? Like that. Right. Okay. But anyways, the point is there's more money around and the media helps by telling those stories. The media helps by making these teams accessible. The media helps with. Heck, I'm not part of it, but these gamblers that are helping pour money into the league, they read the reviews or the reports on who's available, who's playing well, who's been on a shooting slump, who's been on a, you know, like I still remember Natalie Nakase someone mentioning, you know, the shooting slump of Kate Martin and Natalie Nakase being like, we're not in a slump now. This was a Natalie Nikase, like, special in that Nikase is a very positive minded coach. Right. So she's not going to use the word slump to describe a player because she's, she doesn't want her player mentally to be in that realm. Right. But you take that nuance out of it that this is just how Nikase is as a coach, as a person. And that's like her, her way of mentally supporting her players on the outside. It sounds like a woman's basketball player doesn't, or basketball coach doesn't want to recognize that players go through slumps. Right. And that's how that was critiqued. That was how it was criticized or viewed. And this is, this is where I'm curious of the more money that's in this, the more visibility that's in this. That critique of how coaches are responding to things, how players are responding to things, how fans are responding to things, like, that's not gonna go away. It's only gonna get bigger. And so how important is this Leje, I'll start with you because you mentioned this. The nuanced criticism. How important is that nuanced criticism? To continue to grow the league and to continue to ensure that these players are getting the money they deserve. Because this is only the iceberg. Tip of the iceberg. What they just recently got in the cba. So how do you continue to grow on that so you can chip away at more.
- [76:04]
C
Yep. I think this is where all that like, take a deep breath and now we've taken the deep breath and now we're here. Is in order to. Yes. Okay. We're all level setted now. We can come from this place of.
- [76:17]
A
Of.
- [76:18]
C
In order for our league to grow, we need to have this type of criticism now. The X's and O's, the hard hitting. Like, we need to start talking about the fact that X player has not shot well from three for the last two years. Right. Like, there's some players we call shooters. And I'm like, she. She's a shooter, but she's 31% what's
- [76:39]
B
going on for two years.
- [76:40]
C
Right. Like it's a pattern. We're not talking about five games here. You talk about a player who, you know, like, cannot go left or like scouting report is make her, you know, like I think of Lexi Brown hit most of her threes the other night on that left wing. There's that kind of analytical breakdown. Stats of like is like make her score anywhere else on the right side of the floor. Shooting percentage goes down insanely. Having these type of like critical conversations around how good people are on the court is how we grow our league now. Now it's actually not holding us back anymore. That's what I want fans to know. Like, it is. It's actually holding us back to not be critical. It's doing a disservice to players to the product on the floor. We just talked about Portland playing New York. Right. There's no on paper anymore. We're not. We can rip up the paper, we can burn it. We can do a ceremonial thing that we would do is right. Like we could do all the things that is great for our queer league is like, okay, we have arrived, so let's start to get to the place place. And that's the part I'm really excited about as a point guard, as an analyst is like, let's really get into critiquing these coaches for. There was a game I was at last year with Chicago versus the Valkyries. the end of the game, Tyler Marsh told Angel Reese to foul. And I thought angel had fouled. I later found out it was actually him. He made a coaching mistake. And in that criticism is like, oh, he's a first year head coach. That's something like I would have wanted to like write about our podcast about, but I wasn't on the podcast at the time. Was like, oh. And to me it looked like angel made the terrible mistake as a rookie of fouling. When they were up, they didn't need to foul. Long story short, it was like it was actually a coaching era. Let's talk about how coaches make those types of eras and like what that meant for the team. Let's talk about shooting percentage, all the things. Let's talk about offense and what people are running and the fact that, that it's not working or we're questioning why you still have a job because your offense is, you know, rated last in the league. Those types of things I think are really important. And then I think the thing we can do in our league is not just reduce players to numbers, but is still talk about the numbers are really important. Like when I did the eel earlier because you were like, how the NBA literally just talks about it like a contract, like we're slaves. Like we're just actually this piece of paper that is just a literal, like here she is, here are her numbers. So if she's good. Oh, do you want it? I'm gonna trade my piece of paper for your piece of paper. Like that. To me, I feel viscerally because I was a player and I had my contract traded. I know what it's like. So how do we as media cover it in a way that says, yo, I have questions for Kelsey Mitchell. I do. Like, you gotta be a two way player if you're making that kind of money. Like, I need you to be playing some defense with those kind of dolls. Yes, your scoring ability is great, but I need you to be like Ariel Atkins level, like defense. I need you to grow to be like that Good. That's how we grow. Our league is not just saying Tulsi Mitchell's making X amount of dollars she should be doing. You know what I mean? Like it's, that's how you do the nuance.
- [79:36]
B
We, we have to have honesty, right? We have to be honest and we have to be, we have to understand that if the honesty is not all glowing, that does not automatically equate it to being negative and it does not automatically equate it to being personally attacking someone. Right. That's where, you know, I feel like There things get a little bit lost. Annie, I want to get your last take on, like, you know, why this critical coverage is actually vital to the growth of the league. And what. When you think about what fans have said in response to you as you give critical coverage of the league and players and teams, et cetera, you know, why is it important that they understand where you're coming from and why like the. That your goal, your North Star and why you're doing it. Why is it important for the fans to know that too?
- [80:34]
A
Yeah, I appreciate that being the last question because I do think it's helpful when people know you a little bit better and know your motivations and it could maybe help them receive. Yeah you in a different way. But what I'll say to the first part of that question is the thing that drew me into sports was the personal tie to it. I grew up in a house with two single women, my mom and my grandma. And my grandma was always like, oh, we, you know, telling me these stories about her upbringing and like, sports wasn't something like she could, she could do. It wasn't. She couldn't play basketball. Like, they didn't play full court basketball when she was in high school. So I was always drawn to sports as this, like, reflection of a human experience. Like, oh, I can go to practice and learn about life here. It wasn't necessarily the competition side of it for me. And so then as I got older, I started to get drawn to players who I felt similarities with. Like, LeBron James was one of my. Was my idol growing up because I started to learn about him off the court and I was like, wanted to understand who he was as a human. And so when I got into journalism, I was like, this is a space to help readers, fans connect to players, coaches, whoever. And part of that, part of that is covering them critically because as humans, none of us are perfect. And it's our imperfections that. That make us layered and allow us to again, connect with different situations and people and everything right is like telling the layered story, the good, the bad and the ugly, because that's as humans, that's our human experience. And so that was always like my. That's always been. My North Star is like, okay, if this player, like, I remember writing a story about a slump Candace Parker was in, and I'm like, how do you get out of your slumps? Like, what's your way of getting out of your slumps? She told me this great story about how she would go back to this heart the court. She grew up on in Naperville, like whenever she was in a slum, she would go shoot with her brothers or her dad, whatever. And it's like as an adult, as a pro, she still would do that. She would. She would call her the people closest to her and. And get in the gym with them, whoever it was, whether it's her wife or her dad, her brothers. And that's something that someone hopefully is gonna read and be like, oh, damn. When I'm down and out, I do something similar. So again, it was a critical story. She's in this slump, but it's a human experience of, here's how she handles it. The second part I'll say to that is for me, and this goes back to what you guys were saying earlier. This league was built by black queer women. I am a white woman, okay? Like, I have to constantly be self evaluating and even, even when it's uncomfortable. And that's something I'm not gonna shy away from. What I'll say to that, in addition, is as a white woman, I'm also not gonna shy away from covering this league critically. And I am, I am under. I will promise to be accepting of the criticism that comes my way as a result. I may go back and forth with you online. I may have some fun with it, but I will do my best to be understanding of the criticism I receive as a result. But I really like Hope. I hope you know, I don't know now, I'm rambling. But what I'll say is, like, I'm not seeking absolution because we don't all have to be liked. I'm not trying, I'm not in this to try to be liked by everyone. And I want you all out there to know it is okay if you hate me. That is perfectly okay. But what I also need you to understand is I take my job very seriously and I am not approaching any of these things lightly. And I will continue to self evaluate when necessary.
- [85:19]
B
Oh, I love that. I love that. That was beautiful. I'm gonna close this out in terms of this conversation from a few things. So one, I think what's been laid out here is intent. It's really important when you as a fan are engaging with content on the Internet, whether it's about the drama, messiness, gossipy stuff that's around the wnba or it's the basketball X's and O's, or it's the business aspect of it, right? The contracts and all these different things. As you look at all of that content, you really do have to see what is the intent of this individual. Are they trying to entertain me? Are they trying to inform me? Right. Are they trying to ensure that I feel invested or I feel a part of the conversation? Or is their intent to get clicks? Or is their intent to. You know, And I think that. That because of our trauma, that. Lajah, I appreciate you so much for laying out. There's a lot of folks that automatically put the lens of, oh, you're doing it for Click. You're doing it to take advantage. You're doing it to denigrate and make people feel bad and look bad, et cetera. And I think that we just have to take a pause because you're not wrong for some of these folks. Ooh, there's some of these folks that I'm like, why is this person allowed a microphone girl? Why do they have access? Why do they have access to a computer? But you're not wrong. So we don't want to make it seem as. As if this isn't happen, but just for yourself. There was a recent experience I had. Layja and I were talking about the Diana Taurasi or, excuse me, Paige Becker's and Az Fudd thing, and I made a light reference to Diana Taurasi and Penny Taylor. And of course, Penny Taylor's had her own career and was an amazing player outside of Diana Taurasi. So this is very different than Az Fudd. And we said that, like, Lajah went on to list some of the accolades, and someone on Twitter, like, in all caps, tagged me and said, xena, you dumb. Watch your mouth when you're talking about Penny Taylor in all caps, y'. All, I have said some dumb stuff on the NBA side. Dumb stuff. Okay? Stuff that is just because I'm. I'm. I'm not as informed or I don't have the same historical context as others. No one on that side has ever called me a dumb. I mean, in public like that. No. I mean, they might say it in their living rooms. They might be saying it in their cars on the way to work. I don't know. But no one has ever done something like. So I think that there is a level of sensitivity and also, like, reflection of intent. Do you think I really was trying to completely demolish and erase Penny Taylor's legacy in that one small moment? No. And you hear this show and what we're about in this show, listen to the intent behind these creators. The next thing I want to hit on is understanding people's roles. And this goes with intent. I am Very clear to folks. I am an analyst, I am a host, and I am a podcaster. I do not claim myself to be a true journalist in the way that I would say Annie is a journalist and Sabrina Merchant is a journalist and Chantelle Jennings and Ben Pickman was a journalist with the. No, no. Because I am not on the grounds the way they are. I am not in the locker rooms the way they are. I am not having the level of conversations that they are having. A lot of what I am offering as a host, as an analyst, et cetera, is mainly things that I see on the court and then reporting things that mostly other reporters have reported on. And sometimes we're getting. I think a lot of fans get mixed in between, oh, this person that is more a personality, a sports personality. And they're taking this person's opinion as a sports personality as if they are a journalist. And they are forgetting that this person is as a personality, as an influencer. What is their intent? To get people excited and happy and feel good about the wnba. So you're probably not going to get hard hitting, critical coverage from that person, right, Versus someone that is a basketball analyst. You're probably not going to get anything past what they see on the floor in that moment or what they've heard in press, you know, press conferences, et cetera. You're not going to get a lot of contract conversation and whether a person is worth a certain amount of money. But that's coming. Trust me, that is coming. That is the thing that happens in every other league that is coming. This is a new space that we're all trickling into now. Talking about someone's political play versus their contracts. Before, it didn't make sense to talk about Asia Wilson cutting her salary under 250k.
- [90:24]
C
I was gonna say their play should be bad based on what they were.
- [90:27]
A
Exactly.
- [90:28]
B
We should. We were lucky to get what we were getting based on what people make
- [90:33]
C
say, I'll dress business casual when y' all pay me business casual, period. Or fly business casual, period.
- [90:38]
B
So that's coming. And y' all have to be prepared for that. And the same thing is the. When you get a reporter whose job is to report worked, it's not to analyze the X's and O's, right. It is not to tell or to pump you up and make you feel good and make a Kumbaya moment. Their job is to tell the facts and make you, you know, you can take whatever you want from that. That's also, I think, something that's really important and Folks have to understand it, not only as the fans, but I think the players. The players have to see this, too. The players have to start to understand that not everyone is out to get them. And that when people are telling that there are some sports personalities, that there are some analysts, and that there are some journalists, some might cross over, but you've gotta understand what they're doing, when they're doing it, and to truly understand what the coverage is. And the last thing I will say, one, I'm so grateful that we have this space. No off season, I think is genuine about their coverage, not only from the basketball space, but also the cultural elements. Even adding this third show so that we could have, ooh, hour, hour and a half, long conversation. I know. I know you guys got it, but this is. But this is. This is important. This is important. And like I said, this is not the end all, be all. But I just appreciate all of you that listen to us and know our intent and understand our intent. And I appreciate all of you that hold us accountable. Because that's what you said, Annie. The accountability of not only the leagues, the teams, the players, it's also us. And there is a way to hold people in the media accountable. And that is the full circle moment that started us at the beginning of this conversation with the Dawn Staley and Matt Lively. Her publicly calling a journalist biased because the way he reported information was not to her liking. That's not the way to do it, in my opinion. I think that is detrimental, and it hurts folks that genuinely do care about doing it right. And I bet you anything if you reached out to Matt and spoke to him, him more directly and said, hey, this is how it came off to me, I bet you he would have been open and receptive to that. That's just because I know him. Whatever. But I feel like people that genuinely care about this space would be open. So let's have that intent of trying to understand where people are coming from and seeing how we hold them accountable. It ain't gonna be calling somebody a dumb bee. It ain't gonna be sending death threats to their DMs. It's not gonna be that.
- [93:13]
A
Right?
- [93:13]
B
Okay. So, all right. I hope you all had as much fun in this conversation as we have had, being able to have it. And also, I won't even say just fun. I feel like a whole meditative process just went down because we're all taking deep breaths.
- [93:30]
A
Wait, how do the new kids do the heart? It's like, sorry, it's like this.
- [93:35]
B
It's like this.
- [93:36]
C
I'm not gonna try.
- [93:39]
B
Look at me. I did it. Okay. Anywho. Just sending hearts all around for that. And look at that. Look, Laysha, look at us.
- [93:46]
C
Millennials.
- [93:48]
B
This is again, this is queer behavior. This is what we're doing. Okay. All right, y', all, on the other side of this break, we're gonna just really quickly close it out. Put a bow on this Pepe. All right. Don't go anywhere. All right, Right before we go. Ooh, y' all have been with us for a minute, so thank you so much. We just wanna pull put out the call for our upcoming mailbag. We wanna hear from you. Tell us what you think about this conversation. Tell us what we think about the new teams. Portland Fire, Toronto, Tempo. Can they follow up with Valkyries? Did as an expansion team. Send us your questions ahead of the upcoming mailbag episode. We'd love to hear and answer anything and everything that you've been wondering about women's hoops, but for now, that is all we've got today. Thank you for rocking with us, for tuning in, for coming into this conversation with an open mind. Be sure to join for more coverage and conversation from around the world on women's basketball. And we want to hear from you. So make sure you send those questions in for the mailbag. Sign up for the newsletter no Off Season. Shout out to Annie and Sabrina. They've been doing good work. And make sure you're subscribed because this we're having fun over here. I don't know about you, but if you want to stay where the party's at, definitely make sure you're liking and subscribing. On behalf of the Athletic, Lajah Clarendon and Annie Costable, I'm Zena Kada thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kaeda with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant, La' Ja Clarendon, and Annie Costable. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott. Monica Compton is our video editor. Our theme music is by Marcus Pagala. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Be sure to like and subscribe. We drop new episodes every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday.