← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Jose Fernandez on Coaching Paige Bueckers—and Why the WNBA Was the Right Next Step
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Hello and welcome to no off season. I'm Sabrina Merchant.
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D
And I'm Ben Pickman.
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B
And today on the show, we are excited to be joined by Jose Fernandez, the new head coach of the Dallas Wings. Coach Fernandez brings decades of experience building programs and developing players. Ben and I caught up with Jose to talk about his transition to the wnba, coaching Paige Beckers and his vision for the Dallas Wings. But first, we were hit with some breaking news. After our original recording. The WNBA Players association voted to authorize the executive committee to strike when necessary. Ben and I will get into that now and Zena will join us later. So, Ben, break it down for us. What happened here? What exactly is the statement that the union has released today?
- [03:34]
D
It's a great question, Sabrina. It on the surface seems like a important day in this negotiation, but it may not be as important as we think. That is some of what we're going to get into because in short, earlier this week, from what we understand, the players took a vote in which they eventually determined to allow their executive committee, which is a smaller group of players, right. That includes Neko Gumake, Nafisa Collier, Brianna Stewart, Kelsey Plumb, among others. They voted as a body to allow that smaller EC group to call a strike when necessary. So it's kind of a, you know, it is a first step potentially in the union saying we are going to call for a strike. But they are very clear in their statement that, quote, the player's vote is neither a call for an immediate strike nor an intention to pursue one. Rather, they go on to say it is an emphatic affirmation of the player's confidence in their leadership and their unwavering solidarity against ongoing efforts to divide, conquer and undervalue them. So it is kind of a more procedural measure that makes a statement. Right. It seems to me that it's the culmination of more than a year of negotiations. Right. We've talked about that. Seemingly, the players are very frustrated with the state of negotiations.
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E
Right.
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D
Brianna Stewart, one of those players I just mentioned, who is on their EC earlier this week, she basically said as much. Right. She said they're not getting anywhere. They're not where they want to be. And so this is a step in potentially changing that, but it is not, we should be very clear, them just saying we're going to strike right now in mid December, a couple, you know, week before Christmas.
- [05:08]
B
Right. So we should lay out the stakes here. The WNBA and its union are in the middle of a second extension, one that was agreed to at the end of November that runs until January 9th. Both parties have the opportunity within that extension to terminate the extension with 48 hours notice. That doesn't necessarily mean that they immediately go into a strike or a lockout, but they would go into a status quo, for example, but the extension would no longer be active. So what this procedural thing essentially means is that once the union terminates the extension, they wouldn't have to ask the players if they wanted to strike. The executive committee could unilaterally decide to strike. And we should mention that 93% of the players in the union voted on this measure and 98% of those voting members favored this call to authorize a strike again when necessary. I think what's really important here is the idea that there just hasn't been much progress from the player's eyes in this negotiation. Right. That they believe that the league is not coming to the bargaining table in good faith. And that's important to point out because the league responded to this statement with one of their own, characterizing the negotiations in a slightly different manner. Ben, could you fill us in on that part?
- [06:19]
D
Yeah. They say, point blank quote, that while we acknowledge the player's right to authorize a future work stoppage, we strongly disagree with the WNBPA's characterization of the current state of negotiations, which, which they say fundamentally misrepresents the ongoing discussions taking place at the bargaining table. Now, I reported earlier on Thursday that league officials were not surprised by the WNBPA's decision to take this vote. And I think to me, that is again, another read of where things are at, right? The lack of progress, the lack of movement, the. I mean, both sides want to get a deal done here. But as we just mapped out in both of those statements, one side is saying that the league is dragging their feet and not being proactive in getting a deal done. And the league is saying the exact opposite. Right. They're saying that it is the players seemingly that may not be as committed to be getting a deal done.
- [07:11]
C
Right.
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D
The league says in their statement, they go on to say that we have negotiated in good faith and with urgency and we remain focused on finalizing a new CBA that not only meaningfully enhances payer play, benefits and experience, but does so in a way that ensures the long term growth of the game and the league's capacity to serve the next generation of WNBA players. We'll see like where we go from here, Sabrina. That's really the big question.
- [07:32]
B
Right. So I think the major items outlined in that league statement are that they remain committed to growing the compensation of the players, which, you know, we have seen in the details of the league's proposals that the average salary would exceed $500,000, that, you know, the maximum salary would be in the realm of 1.2, $1.3 million, and those would increase over the life of the collective bargaining agreement, that there would be an uncapped revenue sharing model that is tied to the salary cap. It should be noted that the league currently has an uncapped revenue sharing model that has never been put into effect. So would love to see the terms of the uncapped revenue sharing model before we acknowledge that it is substantially better than what the league is currently working with. But yeah, the league is committed to that and also creating a financial model whereby the owners of the teams continue to want to invest in the league and continue to want to grow the valuations of the teams.
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A
And.
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B
And they maintain that the financial model that the players are proposing is unreasonable relative to the amount of money that the league is bringing in. So I guess combined with these statements, combined with Adam Silver stepping in, being asked at the NBA cup final on Tuesday what he thought about the state of the negotiations and saying that they were in a situation where basically both sides need to compromise. And he's in constant communication with Kathy Engelbert and the representatives bargaining on behalf of the league, but could potentially find himself in a situation where he needs to step in further. Is this surprising at all to see how the union has come out today, how the league has come out today? Based on our reporting, based on what we know about the status, is any of this new or interesting or is it basically confirmation of what we already knew?
- [09:11]
D
I think it is new or interesting, and it can also be confirmation of what we already knew. I think I'm thinking about what Brianna Stewart actually said on Wednesday, right. She was asked explicitly, explicitly, rather about Adam Silver saying that he would step in or he would welcome the chance to step in directly in the CBA talks. And what Stewie responded was, what we're doing right now isn't really getting us anywhere. So if it means that Adam and NBA Deputy commissioner Mark Tatum need to come to the table, we're more than happy to have that. In other words, she's saying if we need to shake things up a little bit, change who's in the room necessarily for, you know, the WNBA side of the table, if we think that is going to lead to more progress in her mind, then she's saying we're open to doing that. By taking the vote that they did this week and announcing it on Thursday. They're obviously not saying, hey, Adam Silver, Mark Tatum, welcome to the table full time. But they're basically saying, you know, they're kind of rocking the boat a little. They're changing the circumstances of the negotiation. They're putting a little bit more pressure on the league because I do think both sides want to play basketball games in 2026. Neither side wants to miss games. Nobody wants to miss game checks. Right. People want to continue the positive momentum of the wnba. Both sides certainly recognize that for so long, for almost 30 years, there's been this struggle, right? WNBA has not been on firm footing. It's been this up and down story, right, of spikes and dips. And now they're in this period of growth. They don't want to have that hit. But both sides also want a fair deal. And what is fair is kind of up for interpretation. That's kind of the messiness right now because they have different perceptions about what is a fair deal, what is an equitable deal for both sides here, what are the parameters of a deal we're willing to accept and we're still in mid December. And so maybe there isn't that kind of time pressure, that deadline pressure just yet.
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B
Yeah, I mean, we're getting closer to that deadline pressure. Because you think about when the last CBA was agreed to, that was in the middle of January 2020, and that was in off season, that had less work to accomplish than this current off season because there's an expansion draft to conduct. There are more free agents and a longer season to accommodate in 2026 relative to 2020, which obviously was hampered by the bubble and all that. But I think the real sticking point here is, like you said, what's fair to one side may not be what's fair to the other side. And I don't know that either side is going to fundamentally change their belief of what they think is fair. But that's why I found Adam Silver's comments so telling because, like, they're airing so much of their dirty laundry out in public. Right? Like this negotiation, admittedly, the terms are still, you know, I wouldn't say guarded under lock and key, but a lot of the stuff is still remaining relatively secret. But the way the players feel about the negotiations, the way the league feels about negotiations, all of that is being aired out. And for Adam Silver, who is Kathy Engelbert's boss, who he reports to all of the owners of the NBA and the wnba on some level, for him to say that, that he may have to take a more active role, like may have to step in, that to me, is an understanding that what's happening right now, like Brianna Stewart said, isn't necessarily getting the job done. But it's one thing for the players to say that. It's another thing for the league side to say that.
- [12:22]
D
And look, we should say the league clearly is also taking what happened on Thursday seriously because we've gotten lots of league press releases over the years. I would say this is a longer one. Right. With a little bit more in it than a lot of other cba. Yeah, a lot of other CBA press release statements that we have received. Right. One of the things that the league also says in their statement is it is difficult to understand claims that the league is resistant to change, particularly given that we are proposing numerous CVA modifications, including significant immediate salary increases and a new uncapped revenue share model that would ensure continued salary growth tied to revenue growth. Like them saying it is difficult to understand claims that the league is resistant to change. Like that is a opinionated phrase. Right. That's up for interpretation. That is certainly their assessment of the matter. I'm sure if we took that to some people at the wnbpa, they would dispute that claim. Right. I mean, I think point blank they would dispute that claim. Yeah. Like, I just don't know how much this is going to move things forward again, this January 9th extension deadline looms and now I guess the players are one, you know, one step closer too. Striking. But I don't know. How do you think things play out from here, Sabrina?
- [13:38]
B
Yeah, so we're about three weeks away from the end of this current extension. I imagine at least one of those weeks is not going to have a ton of movement because it is during the holidays. And let's hope.
- [13:47]
D
Let's hope, Sabrina.
- [13:48]
B
Let's hope. Right. But that still leaves two weeks, you know, of good, solid negotiating time. And, you know, like I said earlier, I just don't see the league moving on the fact that they believe their economic model is the only way for the WNBA to ensure profitability. And I don't see the players moving on the fact that they believe that their economic model is the only way that they benefit from the growth of the league in a way that they really haven't before, because we've talked about this in previous episodes. That salary cap is fixed over the life of the cba, not tied to revenue growth. It just hasn't been the case previously that the revenue that the league brought in materially changed the salary cap year to year. And in previous iterations of the wmpa, it wasn't possible really for the revenue to change the salary cap because there wasn't as much coming in. But that has changed over the last three years. So Adam Silver said both sides have to compromise. I don't know what they're going to compromise on. This is such an important sticking point, and they're so far apart, so vastly different in how they approach the economic viability and the model of revenue share in this league that I really think you're going to get to a point where either the players start to feel the squeeze because they're missing games and they're missing game checks, or the league starts to feel the squeeze because they're entering a new meteorite still, and they have to provide a certain amount of inventory to their broadcast partners to receive the value of that meteorite still.
- [15:06]
D
Right. As you're saying, there seem to be some fundamental issues, not only about systems, but even kind of broader, just like theoretical fundamental questions that the two sides can't agree on. Right. Like how important is it for teams to be profitable over the course of this next cba? That is one that I seem to think that they cannot agree on a definition of. Right. Obviously, the teams want to be profitable, but some people would argue that team valuations continue to go up and up and up. And if any of these team owners were to sell or put their teams on the market and sell them, they would profit substantially for what they paid to what they would then sell it for. Now the league is saying maybe you shouldn't. The only way to make money shouldn't be to have to sell your team. And I think there's some merit in that, too. But that, again, is the sticking point, right? That is just one example of a potential question that there is tension over that there are different answers to. If you can't come to some more consensus on questions like that, how can you build consensus on some of the revenue share numbers or what the maximum salary should then be, or, you know, any of the other parameters of the proposals that we've reported on over the last couple weeks?
- [16:24]
B
I think there's a continued issue of transparency and what belongs to the league versus what belongs to the players. You know, I think about expansion fees all the time and how in the NBA those are not, that is not money that is assigned to league revenue, that is just directly pocketed to the owners. And you think about how much an expansion fees is coming for the WNBA, $750 million for Cleveland, Philadelphia and Detroit. And is that a sum that belongs to the entire league or is it a sum that belongs just to the owners and not the players? So there's just, like you said, a lot of fundamental differences about how they view the business of the league, how they want to view the business, how they want to set up the business of the league going forward, and just what money belongs to whom.
- [17:05]
D
I thought, and I think you were going to say another T word as we kind of wrap up this part of the conversation. I thought you were going to say there still seems to be differences as it relates to trust. Right. Because that was another thing that we heard this week from Nafisa Collier, who again, one of these players on the executive committee for the pa, she is a vice president. She said as she was speaking at her kind of pre unrivaled season press conference that she was basically asked if, you know, her opinion of league leadership has changed since her remarks back on the eve of the Finals. And she said, quote, to be fair.
- [17:36]
B
Let'S rehash her remarks at the beginning of the Finals when she said they have the worst leadership in the world, right?
- [17:42]
D
And she then said, I mean, nothing has changed since then, but I feel really confident in our PA and where we are internally with our players. And that kind of says it, right? Like she feels like nothing has changed since then. And her, you know, her reflection of Kathy Engelbert, league officials, league leadership and who is on the other side of the table. And hence it seems like we are in the situation that we are currently in, Right?
- [18:07]
B
Because one thing you often see in these prolonged labor battles is a splintering of the union, a lack of solidarity, and if any, anything, the tightness of the wnbpa. Their solidarity has only increased over this battle. And that is the one thing they continue to lean on over and over again. We may be frustrated at the pace of the negotiations. We may be frustrated about what's on the table. We are not frustrated about the unity that we have when we come to the table. And that's something that fans will see how they continue to support because historically, if games start to get missed, then fans tend to turn against the players and they just want the season to go on. I wonder how that will happen. Play out with the wnba, which is, you know, a different, different type of league than men's leagues, obviously. But yeah, it's it does seem that there are just still deep, fundamental divisions between these two sides. And all that we have heard over the last week and including today just serves to emphasize those divisions and paint a very scary picture of how they're going to resolve them.
- [19:05]
D
Sabrina, I think we wrap this up by asking a simple question, deal or no deal? That is normally how we start these segments.
- [19:12]
B
The answer right now, no deal. And I'm not thinking that there's going to be a deal by January 9th. All right, well, Ben, unless you have something else to add to that, which I think you are still on the no deal part of this, let's take it to our conversation with Jose Fernandez, the new head coach of the Dallas Wings.
- [19:33]
A
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B
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D
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B
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C
A town founded on a brutal Faustian.
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B
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A
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- [21:40]
D
We are joined by the new coach of the Dallas Wings, Jose Fernandez. Now, Jose is a lifelong coach, having been in the profession for more than three decades, including 25 years at the University of South Florida. Now, not only is he bringing his success in college and recruiting internationally with him to Dallas, but with him, eight rescue dogs as well. So, Jose, we wanted to start there, actually. Just what is your morning routine in terms of feeding all your dogs? How do you care for so many dogs at once? What is that like for you?
- [22:09]
C
Well, I'm not going to take responsibility for that. That is, that is strictly. My wife and Taylor, they do a great job of getting the day started early, early in the morning for all eight of our family members.
- [22:26]
B
How do you end up with eight rescue dogs is my question. Like, is it you found all of them at once? Like, it's a process over, like the last decade or so that they've all just sort of come into your family. Like, how does that happen?
- [22:35]
C
I tell you what, we should have gotten Tanya here because then, then this, then this, this conversation would have been a lot longer and, but, you know, just over time, that's something that, that my wife Tanya is very, very passionate about. And it started when, started a long time ago when, when our oldest girls were, were in middle school. And it started with our first rescue dog and Buster. And then it just led through the years where we're at now. It's something that we're very, very passionate about. And my wife's very involved with three different rescues in the Tampa Bay area. I come home after a practice, after a game, after a vacation. It's just unconditional love when you walk in the door. So our house is chaos. It's a zoo, but it's fun and there's a lot of life in our house that's amazing.
- [23:28]
D
And I'm sure a lot of dog hair and fur just all over the place as well.
- [23:32]
C
No, not the way. No, not the way these dogs are fed and groomed and taken care of. Ben, Sabrina, you guys are welcome to come to the compound in Tampa and take a look.
- [23:43]
B
I feel like, we missed our opportunity after the Final Four this year. That was a.
- [23:46]
C
It's different.
- [23:48]
D
Amazing, I guess. Let's go from dogs to sharks. Specifically your time at Miami Dade, whose nickname are the Sharks. And because that is where you really got into coaching, can you just paint the picture for us? Is it right that you got into to coaching? You were still 20, 21 years old at community college. Like, that's your first jumping into the pool, learning how to coach.
- [24:10]
C
Yeah, that takes us back. They were the Jaguars back then, and then they had a name change, but yeah, I graduated high school in seven, at 17 in 1989 out of Miami Southwest Senior High School. And gentleman Cesar Odeo. That was an incredible mentor. He's no longer with us, but I became a student assistant for two years at Miami Dade. And then while I transferred from Miami Dade to FIU as a physical education major, you know, the budgets at a junior college are not great and they're not very big. So at that point, I got a great opportunity to be an assistant coach at the junior college level while I was working on my bachelor's as a phys ed major at fiu. That's where it all started, you know, And I think it's very, very important. And I talk to coaches, done a lot of podcasts with the WBCA and the labc. People ask, how'd you get into the business? Any advice? Well, the landscape of our game now is a lot different because back then, I think when you coach high school and junior College in Division 2 and Division 3, you get a great opportunity to get your hands into everything. The player development, scouting, video breakdown. You got to learn how to take ankles. You're in charge of recruiting, you're in charge of scheduling. There's so many things that you learn as. As you're getting into the business where things have changed a little bit, too. I mean, I still remember getting in the car June 1st and working 12 straight weeks of basketball camp. That's what you did all summer. And you really made great connections and inroads with. With coaches in the summer that you kept in touch with. And then, like you said, you go to the Final Four and you have meetups again, and you do those. You do that kind of stuff for four or five, six years to try and position yourself to get a job when the opportunity arises.
- [25:56]
B
You know, one of the things that you've sort of become known for, at least from our perspective, is your recruiting of international players. And I'm wondering, like, just based on how the women's Basketball landscape was, you know, when you first started doing that, how did you convince your school that we had the budget to, you know, interview international players? Like how do you go about doing that with the resources that you had?
- [26:15]
C
Well, I think the biggest change that we, I went all in is when we were in the Big east and made the transition into the American, the Big East. At that time we had 16 teams, 891 to the NCAA tournament. The next four or five went to the WNIT and two teams didn't compete in postseason play. When there was a big split, I realized that immediately that it was going to be very, very difficult for us to continue to get the top hundred recruit that we were getting so creatively just decided, you know what, I'm going to get on a plane and go to under 16s, under 18s, under 20s, and then also the either the U17 or U19 World Championships that, that run every year. And then all of a sudden that just, that just transitioned to us really recruiting, developing and you know, former players talking about their experience at the University of South Florida and their success and the amount of players that we had the opportunity to put them in positions to assist them to get drafted and also to continue for them to play overseas. But it's a huge process. Not only do you have to do the work during the season, then the month of September comes and literally, Sabrina, this past September, I got on a plane on a Wednesday to Europe and I came back on a Sunday. They had a team workout with my team on Monday, Tuesday, did it again on Wednesday to Sunday for four straight weeks. That's really where you get an opportunity to have sit downs and, and, and home visits with people that you want to sign in November or in April.
- [27:57]
D
We should say that, you know, you guys make that switch at South Florida. But after 2013, before the 201314 season, just for reference, I guess, how did you go about the relationship building? How did you start to build those relationships? What was that process like with international coaches at these tournaments, you know, their families? How did that compare?
- [28:17]
C
Yeah, at that point it's really in the summer, meeting as many national team coaches and then developing relationships with the federations because the federations want to make sure that they're going to be confident in the recruiting process and the development of the future of their national team members style of play. How are they going to grow from year one, year two, year three, making sure that it was going to be a very, very good working relationship. That as soon as our season ended in spring semester, hey, you're going to get those players back with your national programs. They weren't going to stay here for summer school unless they didn't have any national team commitments or they were older than 20 years old and they couldn't compete in the FIBA under 20 tournaments. So I think a lot of communication and a lot of relationship building and then them seeing the success that their players were having in our program.
- [29:17]
B
Yeah, it seems like Kitloksa is probably the name that most people know from your program as like that international success story. First round pick, played in the WNBA finals this past season. But I actually wanted to talk about a player who I think more people are going to associate with South Florida these days who's become very popular in 2025, and that's Courtney Williams. It's been the year of Courtney Williams.
- [29:37]
C
I would say I'm dying my hair pink for her. I'm not doing that.
- [29:41]
B
Maybe if you were coaching Minnesota coach, but when you think about Courtney Williams, you remember recruiting her back in the day. What do you remember about that process and what she was like even at that younger age?
- [29:53]
C
You know, I think that Courtney was very under recruited. Really small town, South Georgia, you know, Charlton County High School. I had an assistant coach, Carrie Banks. Carrie was an assistant, did a great job recruiting Courtney, went to Ohio State and then was head coach in Nebraska, Omaha. You know, Carrie went to go watch Courtney run track and field, went to go watch Courtney practice, play high school. It was a matter of fact that, you know, when I first saw Courtney play in the, in the travel circuit, I wish I was like, okay, I hope she doesn't go anywhere else, doesn't travel anywhere because this kid could be special. And we got her on campus as soon as possible. And when that happened, Courtney will tell you, mom was big on how Courtney was going to be looked after, taken care of, developed, making sure she got her degree. And mom said, you're coming to school here, you're going to come play for this man. She was a boss, according to have no say. But you know, the biggest, the tough part was, was Courtney. I think we're now things are a lot different with the transfer portal and shared revenue and the nil. Courtney didn't start for us as a freshman. She came off the bench because, well, we had Andrea Smith, that was a senior, and Ingor Cova, that was a senior. And both, both those two young ladies got drafted. They won in the draft. So she was playing behind two very good basketball players. But I think the biggest thing that Courtney did, she Loved the game. She was in the gym all the time. She was a pleasure to coach. You know, I think Courtney was such a competitor. I didn't have to coach effort with Courtney. She took it personal every single day to put it on our male scrimmage team. She enjoyed playing. She was unbelievable with her time management. Everybody loved Courtney. But the one thing that Courtney did every night before the next day, I mean she was in that, she was in that gym every single day. People don't know how much work she put in to be where she's at now. And she's really transformed where she came in to South Florida and she was a mid range shooter. But then you look at her stats on her three point percentages, her attempts and her makes from her freshman, sophomore, junior, senior year and how well she rebounded and now where she's transformed her game again. Beat from going from an off guard to not creating with the ball in her hands and being doing so well in transition and getting, getting the Minnesota links offense going from the point guard position. But that's something that our games changed with. How many different people can bring up the ball now and up tempo and different times, types of playing styles. But yeah, that's my Courtney story.
- [32:42]
B
I mean, you got any funnier stories about Courtney? I feel like the personalities really would.
- [32:47]
C
You know what, this is an appropriate time to do that. I'm sure she's got a lot, a lot of them for me and she's kept them off of her podcast. So I will do the same.
- [32:59]
D
Makes sense, I guess. You mentioned, you know, you've mentioned some of the changes in the sport and you've mentioned your role with the wbca, the coaches association in college and you've been the vice president there for a while. The president as well. I know we could do an hour. I'm sure some of your zoom calls that you're referencing are hours long and you've had many of them over the years. But succinctly, I guess what do you hope to influence still about the state of college coaching? What do you make of the state of being a college coach for those who are still college coaches?
- [33:29]
C
I think there's a lot of things that you that need to be addressed. Right. And I think the biggest thing, and I'm sure Ben, that you saw come about what was the appropriate time to open up the transfer portal and how long was the transfer portal should be open now the transfer portal previously was going to be, was open after the first weekend. Right. And then it went on for the amount of time that it went on. The biggest thing that everybody was in agreement on within our conference captains, our stewardship group and our board of directors calls, which we make recommendations from the Women's Basketball Coaches association to the oversight committee, and then the oversight committee committee makes those decisions. We felt that 15 days was the right number. Now, our initial position was right after that first weekend. Now when you make these type of decisions, it also has to be in line with what's going to happen on the men's side. They also said 15 days was right. But I believe the men were, were strongly about that second weekend after the Elite Eight. But as you saw, the announcement came that the 15 days will start right after the Final Four, and then the teams in the Final Four will get the additional five days. We were all in total agreement by the 15 days. I know it's really difficult to wait after the Final Four because as you know, some teams, Ben, their season is over. Could be over the last week of February, early March. So now student athletes have to wait for a whole month till to get into the port. But again, then you talk about what is the most important thing for student athletes and 68 teams in the tournament and the coaches and the student athletes in preserving the integrity of the tournament and putting the main focus on the NCAA tournament and its success and how much the NCAA tournament has grown, increasing the TV coverage, the amount of teams playing in it, also the shared revenue in the units that now it's the second year that is happening with women's basketball. So a lot of discussion, you could have different opinions both ways. But I think it came down to it that the oversight committee really thought that the most important thing was protecting the NCAA Terminator, its integrity. Next thing we really need to look at is the net and the quadrant system. There are major, major flaws in this system. You know, I started when it was home away, neutral rpi. Right. As you can see, Ben, if you play a tournament, you play a team, the net can be manipulated by what margin of victory, Right? And a lot of the offensive and defensive components that are put in the net formula. So that needs to be really looked at because you can really beat a really good team on the road or at home by three, four points and someone behind you can play a team in the three hundreds and win by 45 and move up in the net. Well, everybody's going to look at the net. The committee looks at the net. It's human nature. When you take a deep, deep dive, you really look at the quadrants, right? And what's a quad one win a quad two win a three? We need to look at the why is a quad system different than the men? So I think it came down to all this AI and probably some Google Analytics person. I think those are things that really need to look at, to be looked at in regards to seating because it hurts teams that are not in P4 conferences that do not have the money to buy those guarantee games. Right. And then the really good mid majors just cannibalize each other. That's why it's like Florida. I always had to play the schedule we're playing in November and December to try and do our manipulating of the net as well in regards to strength, schedule margins and everything like that.
- [37:22]
D
Right. I guess the good thing though now in your new full time job with the Wings is that you no longer have to worry about quad one wins and net and any of that. You just have to worry about simple wins and losses.
- [37:33]
C
So that's good. But you know, any way that I can continue to, to help our game grow and help the, our coaches association and Danielle Donahue, I told her I would do that so they wouldn't let me go.
- [37:45]
B
Ben, I mean you think about all the things that you've accomplished at the college level and all the things you still hope to affect in terms of changing college basketball. Why did you feel like this was the right time to make the move to the wnba?
- [37:56]
C
I thought it was time for me, Sabrina. I've been a head Division 1 coach for 25 years. I think we've had a lot of success. The landscape of the game has totally changed. Right. From I think student athletes and parents are not looking at equality of. When you see student athletes transferring from some very highly regarded academic institutions. Right. And not looking at the positives that that academic institution can give you. Not only now, but 5, 10, 15 years down the line. You know, the college system is broken and I don't know how it can be fixed hopefully at the congressional level. But I was, I was really, Sabrina, coaching professional sports at the collegiate level in regards to calculating, okay, what are we doing with our cost of attendance? What are we doing with our Austin money, summer summer school money, Christmas break money? What are their incentives are we gonna put in here? And then okay, what, what are we going to offer in this shared revenue bucket? And how are they going to be able to, what type of nil money are they going to be able to make free us to even have a chance to have the student athlete play for us? So you're not a head coach anymore. You're, you're a general manager. When you have to manage all those things and then going out and have to supplement besides fundraising for the things that you want to do for your, for your team. And we needed to always play in two great tournaments to get five, six top 50 games and also additional revenue for your shared revenue bucket. Sabrina, if I was coaching professional basketball in college, I said, you know what, why don't I do this in the wnba? Because I think, you know, getting an opportunity to go coach the best players in the, in the world, that's something that you strive for. I'm really excited about the. Where the league is right now. We've always played a pro Euro international system, right. And the basketball part doesn't concern me. The player development part, the preparation, I think that's going to be the easy part. So as long as you're able to communicate and motivate and have great relationships with the players in your franchise and that's, that's what now to training camp you want to do. But I've been busy really just watching basketball, watching a lot of basketball, watching a lot of international basketball and also conducting interviews by Zoom and in person to put a really, really good staff.
- [40:26]
D
Together, I guess on the player front, I mean, you're talking about, you know, obviously this Nil era, one of the recent faces of the Nil era in women's college basketball, certainly Paige Beckers, who you now obviously have good fortune of coaching with the Wings. You talked a little bit too about starting to get to know and building those relationships with your current group of players. For someone like her specifically, how are you building that relationship? How do you prepare to coach her come, you know, March, April of next year? What has that process been like so far?
- [40:57]
C
Got a lot of texts and phone calls and really honest conversations of about last year, how she felt last year, when I will be going now to watch her in Miami and unrivaled. So that'll be really good. I think it's very, very important when the CBA gets done and that'll kick off free agency, right. The expansion draft and all that other stuff where I'm sure she's going to be involved in. In a lot of things that that myself in the front office in regards to the roster and. But I think really getting a feel for her on what she likes with the ball in her hands, off the ball.
- [41:33]
D
Right.
- [41:34]
C
So I think as we lead into getting everybody here in Dallas for training camp, her and I will be on the Same page on what I see on both ends of the floor.
- [41:42]
B
I know you have a relationship with Gino Auriemma, you know, from your days at South Florida. I'm wondering, like, how much you've learned from him about Paige or how much you try to separate what he knows about Paige from what relationship you're trying to build with her.
- [41:55]
C
So I just recently saw them in Tampa, which was very good to be able to do that. We went out to dinner the night before and one of my visits to go see a young lady that everybody's talking about. It's a prospective draft pick. And Shaw was there for three days, watched him practice, watched him play Ohio State, and got. Got to spend a lot of time with him. And of course, we had conversations in regards to schemes. Paige with the ball inside, pick and roll in the slot in the middle of the floor right when it comes off the glass. And she gets denied, it doesn't. And someone else brings it up and her off the ball. So it was great to. To get his perspective on things because he cares deeply about her, her. And he cares deeply about her. Her success in the future.
- [42:45]
D
Have you talked to, you know, Carl Smesko, Lynn Roberts, obviously, other coaches who within the last two or three years also made the jump from the college game to the program? Have you talked to either of them or other coaches who have made that, what it's like, best practices, picking their brains for whatever reason or, you know, you also have Kurt Miller, who's, you know, the general manager and your boss, who made a similar transition in a different era 10 years ago, too.
- [43:12]
C
You know, I think you guys saw we had those New York meetings. And one thing that you take away from there, that how united These, all the GMs and head coaches are about the league being successful. One of the first phone calls that I made was to Carl, and Carl got. And I got an opportunity to talk a lot at the Yukon game the other night. And there'll be things that definitely I'll pick his brain on. I plan on getting together with Nikki Collins as well. Nikki made that jump as well. Lynn extended her, you know, very, very courteous to be able to reach out. I met Lynn a long time ago at the center of Coaching Excellence, and she works for my former athletic director here at South Florida, Mark Harlan. You know, Nate Tibbets making the jump from the NBA to the wnba. I was able to pick his brain in Phoenix. So a lot of people have been very, very welcoming and very, very helpful.
- [44:06]
D
I guess let's then end with this Dallas big picture, when you think about camp getting going, when you think about, you know, what next season will bring. You talked about this a little bit in your press conference, your introductory press conference. But how do you hope to change the culture? Just what are expect does success look like for you guys in the short term and then in the long term as you take this job on?
- [44:29]
C
Yeah, Ben, I didn't leave a wonderful place if I didn't think I can come here and win. Right. I know there, there were a lot of, of of of doubters, right. Why is he leaving? Is there going to even be a season next year? I mean it's all doomsday stuff right now. But I think the biggest thing for me, I saw the vision and Kurt and Travis and Jasmine and the plans that Greg has with the brand new practice facility and the excitement about the Wings playing down in downtown Dallas short term, Ben getting to the playoffs immediately. Can't win a championship without getting to the playoffs. So that's number one.
- [45:10]
A
Right.
- [45:11]
C
And that's going to be the expectation. And you only do that by doing the right things every day and talking about championship culture and championship excellence. I think it starts when we are all in the room together and them knowing my voice and my standards and non negotiable, non negotiables even before we even start. Right. On how we're going to practice, on how we're going to prepare. So again, it's also just can't be from the front office and the coaching staff. You know, we have to have this has got to be a team if we're going to be very, very successful in everything that we do strategically. And our culture's got to be great, it's got to be player led. You know, that locker room's got to be great, you know and we got, we got some very, very talented, talented individuals on our roster. And I know there's a lot of unknowns, but I feel really, really good at where we're at and where we're going to be at.
- [46:07]
D
As you said, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of questions still to be answered. Who knows when camps will even get going. But I think a lot of reason for excitement. So we very much appreciate, appreciate the time. Learning about your journey, learning about your perspective, learning about your dogs as well. So good luck with all of that and caring for all of that going forward. Jose Fernandez, thank you for joining no off season.
- [46:28]
C
Thank you Ben. Thank you Sabrina.
- [46:36]
B
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A
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- [48:49]
E
Ben Sabrina, as always, great interview. Love the insight from Coach Fernandez, particularly on. I mean he had a lot of grievances around the college system and some rules around that. I love that he's coming in hot and heavy to the W. He talked a little bit also about Paige Beckers and texting and calling, getting to know her, things like that. But I was curious what stood out to you from Coach Fernandez's interview as you guys were Talking to him. And what do you think he's going to bring to the Wings to position them for success?
- [49:20]
B
Yeah, I think, you know, he has a very long, decorated career at the mid major level. And this is a different jump. Right. Like, it's very different from coaching at South Florida and the AAC conference versus coaching in the wnba. But it's a jump that we've seen people make in real life recent years. And I just hope that everyone in Dallas is on the same page in terms of how long it's going to take to get everything acclimated, like what sort of Runway they have in terms of building around Paige Becker's. Not to say that they should pick one direction or another, but you hope that everybody is in alignment. Right. Because I think that's what creates the most successful situations in the WNBA is when the front office and the head coach all are walking in the same direction. And it seems like he and Kurt Miller have a good relationship. And that's one of the reasons why he's in this role, is because he believes in what Kurt's doing and that makes it a place that you'd want to be. We didn't get to talk as much about what was happening in Dallas, so I'm curious to know what Ben thinks Jose's actually going to bring to the Wings. As much as I enjoyed the thoughts on the quad system and the transfer portal, but yeah, Dallas has a very big off season here. Number one pick in the WNBA draft, expansion draft. Decisions to make, you know, in terms of protections and free agency decisions, things that are facing every team in the league, but just heightened to another level when you have Paige Beckers and when you have the number one pick. So again, like, this is not an easy job to step into by any means. The fact that he was willing to leave a job that he's held for so long to make this change suggests that, like, he thinks some good things can happen here. But yeah, I think it just came across that, like, he's very experienced in this world of women's basketball. He has a lot of connections in the world of women's basketball. He's familiar with the international game and the domestic game. So. So there's just a lot of knowledge coming into this role which is a little different than the previous coach at the Wings. Head.
- [51:04]
E
That was my thing is as soon as he talked a little bit about the international aspect of his recruitment and I appreciate you guys tapping into that, I immediately thought of Rashid Mezian and just even what the Connecticut sun have done in terms of turning their attention to international recruitment. And I also thought of the Golden State Valkyries and thinking about, okay, teams are gonna be expanding their horizons a little bit. And I think that feels like something that can definitely help the Dallas Wings in filling out their ranks. What do you think, Ben, in terms of what he can bring to the team to kind of change the course of what happened last year?
- [51:38]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think first off, it's just an energy shift, like a total energy shift that you can sense in our conversation, in other conversations I've listened to with him, other conversations we've had, the confidence, the confidence of him as a communicator, the confidence in philosophy, the confidence of him as a coach. And to me, it doesn't come across as arrogant. It comes across as someone who is experienced, who knows who he is at this stage in his career and in his life. What, you know, are his core tenants, his core values, what are the things he wants to bring to a franchise, and a confidence that he's going to be able to translate them and bring them from, you know, USF to the wnba. And there's an air that, yes, he might be new to the WNBA, but, like, he's been coaching for 25 plus years. He's basically been coaching his whole adult life. Everyone we've talked to seems pretty confident that, like, he's going to be able to make this transition happen. Obviously, we'll see who he brings in on staff. But his former players have continued to praise him. It seems like he's gotten off. You know, the first impressions of him with current players are very positive. The working relationship with Kurt Miller is very important. As we previously reported in the process and talked about, when he got hired, he was a finalist. He was very much up for this job a year ago before electing to go back to usf. Right. So Kurt and him have had this relationship in the past. They've both now been people who transition from the college to the pro game. It's a lot of wait and see, but you see why they targeted him. There's a lot that he brings to the table. There's a lot that he will bring to the Wings. And this job is very different than it was a year ago. Right. And that's been something that the Wings have been pretty clear about, that Dallas now is, you know, a job that everyone has their eyes on. Right. The public is, you know, it's under intense scrutiny at all moments. And he is a coach that I think having been in the Fire, is well equipped to deal with whatever comes at at him.
- [53:28]
B
And his experience makes like Dallas's off season decision so interesting because we talked about the international nature of his recruitment and you think about an AWA fam who could potentially be the number one pick in the WNBA draft. And then you think about his connections at the college level where he literally coached in the same conference as UConn and his aggressive relationship with Gino Orilloma is probably very familiar with Az Fudd's game. Right. So those being the two names that are in contention for the number one pick, among the names in the contention for the number one pick, I should say, you know, makes it interesting because of, like I said, the background that he brings to the job and like what he has historically prioritized as a coach at usf.
- [54:02]
E
The background definitely, as you mentioned, the shift, Ben, the energy, the background and the confidence that he has in his background and the length of time does give you a little bit of that safety net feel where you're like, I'm good, I'm in a position, I'm in front of someone that's been there, done that. Even though he hasn't coached at the WNBA level, there is this familiarity with the game and the familiarity of like, yeah, this is going to be tough, but I've done tough things before and I think that that's really encouraging for Dallas Wings fans to be able to hear that. Now talk a little bit about the fact that there's a lot of scrutiny. My last question is if they don't win again, we know first time head coaches and also first time head coaches in a particular position, for example, like being the newest head coach at the Dallas Wings, usually you get a little bit of leeway, a little bit of time to clean things up and build something. What's going to happen if Dallas has another unsuccessful season? Now that's two seasons with a Paige Beckers under your helm and whoever ends up in that position at the number one pick, what happens if you have an unsuccessful season with that?
- [55:08]
D
I think he's got a lot of Runway here and I don't think he goes from USF to Dallas unless he knows that, you know, he's going to be with the Wings for a bunch of years to come. I mean, you got to think about it from a lot of different perspectives here. Number one, if for some reason ownership, it totally flops and ownership elects to make a change, you have to imagine they would also then make a change at the front office level as well, right? Kurt Miller hiring And firing, theoretically, two coaches in two seasons with the Wings probably means that, like, he would be on the way out, too. Again, I don't think that's going to happen, but history would suggest, like, that is how it works. I also think Dallas very much is trying to get away from the perception that it is just a place that churns out coaches and doesn't actually allow people to grow. Right. Chris Calcanis was there for a year. Latricia Trammel was there for two years. Vicky Johnson two years. Brian Agler two years. Not since Fred Williams, who was the head coach there from 2014 to, I guess the midway through the 2018 season when he was let go. Did a coach last more than two seasons. So this has been a place that has turned over very quickly. I think they're very much trying to be a place of stability. It would be pretty surprising, no matter what the result or what the record is of this team, for them to make any kind of move. I think, you know, they're both a better position to succeed and also, you know, want this to succeed as well.
- [56:26]
B
I mean, I would still be surprised if they missed the playoffs if there wasn't some change at the front office level, whether that's in the coaching staff or, you know, front office decision makers. Because you can have a Runway and you can talk about being in alignment and growing together. And if you have a number one pick, like that's a rookie who's going to be getting significant minutes, but you already have an old WNB player and Paige Beckers, who is one of the faces of the league. And I don't think they're content to sit on that. Otherwise Chris Kalkanis would still be in this job.
- [56:51]
E
That's what I'm thinking. Exactly. It's not only just Paige, but it's a combination of that level of star power. So we'll see what happens. But thank you so much, guys, for that wonderful interview and good luck to Jose Fernandez in his new role. Now, before we head out, we gotta let you guys know where you should set your screens to this weekend. And it's gonna be the games that we are actually going to be around. First up, Women's Champions Classic at Barclays Center. Ben New York, usually your territory, Are you going to be at this game?
- [57:19]
D
Usually my territory. That is my territory.
- [57:21]
E
That is your territory.
- [57:22]
B
You've been going to UConn quite a bit. That's why she says usually that is true.
- [57:25]
D
I will be at these games. It's brunch at Barclays center might as well be the name of this event because it is a Tennessee vs. Louisville at 11am Eastern on Saturday followed by Iowa vs. UConn at 1:30pm Eastern on Saturday. So after you have your first servings of brunch and your first breakfast mimosas, you go run it back for round two in the second game of the doubleheader.
- [57:48]
E
I mean, I'm hope like 8am on a Saturday. That's, that's gonna be, that's gonna be interesting. On the Sabrina.
- [57:56]
D
The real question is, I guess for Sabrina and Xena is what will the score of Yukon Iowa be when you guys wake up on Saturday morning? Will the game.
- [58:03]
B
Oh, I don't wake up that late.
- [58:04]
E
I wake up, I mean I wake.
- [58:05]
B
Up during Louisville, Tennessee.
- [58:07]
E
But yeah, 8am is usually like trying to get to the gym, trying to like get my life in order at that point before I go to brunch or before I go do anything social. But yeah, that's a good, a good question about what Iowa and that lack of perimeter defense is going to look like against UConn. But don't have to worry about that because we'll be on the west coast over at the Bay Area Women's Classic at Chase Center. Oregon takes on Stanford Sunday at 6pm Eastern, 3pm Pacific and then USC follows up right after that versus Cal Sunday at 8:30pm Eastern, 5:30pm Pacific. And the games on Saturday are going to be on Fox Sports. The games on Sunday are going to be on espn. So definitely set your screen to that. And Sabrina, are you going to be adding games?
- [58:52]
B
No. This is a watch from home type of weekend.
- [58:55]
E
There you go. A lot of good games to watch though, so make sure you guys are tuned in. That is all we have for you today. Thank you guys so much for listening. We'll be back on Tuesday. We've got our mailbag episode. We appreciate you guys getting those questions in. And don't worry, you can still send more questions in. Put in the comments. No offseason at the Athletic. Our email definitely works, but you want to make sure you are subscribed so you don't miss that episode. So make sure you're following us, subscribing wherever you're listening as well as leaving some reviews. We want those five star ratings to come in. Santa, I think we've been good. I think we deserve those. So make sure you drop those gifts off and head on over to our partner at the Yahoo. Sports Hub for more content. Sports.yahoo.com womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic coach, Jose Fernandez, Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman, I'm Zena Caida thanking you for listening, listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Cato with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.
- [60:24]
D
Amazon, Pizza Hut, Audible How'd they get so big without soul destroying complexity?
- [60:30]
A
On Founders Mentality the CEO Sessions we're.
- [60:33]
C
Going to find out who's number one is a customer.
- [60:35]
E
Whose Walmart is it?
- [60:36]
B
My Walmart?
- [60:37]
C
If you looked at Audible, it was kind of like growth, growth and then growth.
- [60:40]
B
It separates Amazon and AWS from anyone else.
- [60:44]
D
Join me, Jimmy Allen, partner of Bain and company to hear surprising stories from the world's greatest leaders. Subscribe to Founders Mentality to CEO Sessions now.
- [60:55]
A
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- [61:25]
B
Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.
- [61:27]
A
Zoe. This thing weighs a ton.
- [61:28]
C
Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man.
- [61:30]
A
Santa.
- [61:31]
D
Santa, did you get my letter?
- [61:32]
A
He's talking to you, Bridges.
- [61:33]
D
I'm not.
- [61:34]
B
Of course he did.
- [61:36]
D
Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here.
- [61:38]
C
He handles the nice list.
- [61:40]
A
And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies.
- [61:47]
E
Right, Mrs. Claus?
- [61:49]
B
I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister and AT T Mobile there's no trade in needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone or give it.
- [61:57]
C
Does it give?
- [61:57]
B
And the best part, you can make.
- [61:58]
D
The switch to T mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.
- [62:01]
A
Guys, my side of the tree is slipping.
- [62:04]
C
The holidays are better.
- [62:05]
A
AT T Mobile switch in just 15.
- [62:07]
C
Minutes and get iPhone 17 on us.
- [62:09]
A
With no trade in needed. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores with 24 monthly bill.
- [62:14]
D
Credits for well qualified customers. Plus tax and 35 device connection charge credit engine balance due if you pay off earlier.
- [62:18]
A
Case financing agreement 256 gigs $830 eligible for in a new line $100 plus.
- [62:21]
D
A month plan with auto pay tax. Check out 15 minutes or less per line.
- [62:24]
A
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