← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
JuJu Watkins’ Injury + Takeaways from Early Rounds of the NCAA Tournament
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- [00:01]
Flauje Johnson
21 year old flaw J Johnson has built an impressive career, making strides on the basketball court and the rap scene. A national champion and rising music star, she embodies the passion and determination required to excel in both worlds. But Flaw J's success hasn't come without challenges. The financial services industry has often overlooked the needs of women, leaving many feeling misunderstood or treated differently by financial professionals. For Flauje, the this reality strengthened her resolve to take control of her financial future. Just as Flauje trains for success on the court, she understands the importance of preparation when it comes to her finances. MassMutual, a leader in helping people create a strong financial future, understands the unique financial challenges that women face. That's why they offer tools and personalized help so that women like flaujay can confidently plan and protect their financial futures. All with the goal of creating better financial outcomes for women everywhere. Visit massmutual.com stayready to learn more.
- [01:02]
Chevy Silverado
This episode is brought to you by Chevy Silverado. When it's time for you to ditch the blacktop and head off road, do it in a truck that says no to nothing. The Chevy Silverado Trail boss get the rugged capability of its Z71 suspension and 2 inch factory lift plus impressive torque and towing capacity thanks to an available Duramax 3 liter turbo diesel engine. Where other trucks call it quits. You'll just be getting started. Visit chevy.com to learn more. The wrongs we must write, the fights we must win, the future we must secure together for our nation. This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us. We are Marines. We were made for this.
- [02:04]
Zena Kaeda
Hello everyone and welcome to no off season presented by MassMutual. I'm Zena Kaeda.
- [02:10]
Sabrina Merchant
And I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [02:12]
Zena Kaeda
Today, the first and second rounds of the tournament are finally in the books. We are looking at what surprised us, what didn't, the players who had the most impact and what it all means as we look ahead to the sweet 16. But first, the unfortunate news of Juju Watkins sustaining a season ending injury with an apparent torn ACL in her right knee. That moment sucked the air out of my own house. It sucked seemed to suck the air out of the arena. But fortunately for us to be able to kind of describe what was there in the arena. Sabrina, you were there. How did this all go down? What did you feel? What did the arena feel like bring us into the arena as this moment happened?
- [03:03]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so. God, I've. I've been in the arena for a couple of Big injuries like this before. I mean, I was in Vegas when Paul George broke his leg for team usa and, you know, I was in Staples center when Kawhi Leonard tore his ACL during the playoffs, which is kind of the closest thing I can analogize to what happened here because you're in the middle of a postseason run and incredibly high hopes, right? The team is playing well. Great victory over UNC Greensboro, you know, Big ten regular season champions. Sky's the limit, I think, for what USC can accomplish. Sky's the limit for what juju Watkins in particular can accomplish. And off to just a roaring start in this game. Like, it is 13 to 2 by the moment, where juju takes the ball on the break and her leg kind of buckles and she goes down. And the thing with juju is, like, she goes down every so often during the game. Like, she plays hard. She's. She plays kind of wild. And that explosive motion, like, the way that she euros in transition and the way that she's able to, you know, move side to side, back and forth, like, her full range of motion is just kind of what makes her, like, special. And she's always, like, you know, fallen to the ground. And even during the first round game, she, you know, sort of came up against the stanchion, and incidentally enough, like, hits a three pointer, like, right after that happens before she calls out for a sub. And you're just used to seeing her pop right back up. And here she goes down. Not only does she not come right back up, but you hear the scream, and, you know, the players just immediately sort of gather around her, which, you know, is never a good sign. I was talking to Leah von Olhofen afterwards, and she was saying, I just knew instinctively that the cameras are always on juju, and it was not a good moment. So I was just trying to get myself in front of a camera so that it wasn't on juju. And the whole team is sort of thinking that. And, you know, I'm sure people have watched the videos by this point. Like, you can see juju mouth like, ah, f pretty clearly. And, you know, as her teammates are sort of just like, buying some time until the trainers get there. Like, Lindsey Gottlieb comes over. Assistant coach Wendell Farrow comes over. And. And I'm not gonna say that, like, Lindsey doesn't, like, care about injuries during game, but she doesn't usually have to come over during the game for injury because it usually doesn't rise to that level. And so once it was like, okay, well, Lindsay Gottlieb is coming over, then everyone's just sort of like. It's just hard to explain, like, how tense it was in that particular moment. And then you're just hoping that, like, okay, Juju's gonna be on the floor for a little bit longer, but, like, maybe she just needs a moment to collect herself and she'll be able to, like, walk it off, or, you know, this is what juju does. She always walks it off, and then they bring the trainers over and they carry her off. And it's not even like she's able to put, like, weight on one leg or something. You know, it's just completely lifted up, carrying her off. And normally, you would expect her to be carried off towards their locker room, like, that side of the court, past their bench. And I think it was a matter of, like, well, we just need to get juju stable as soon as possible. So we're gonna carry off to the other side of the court because we literally just need to get her, like, in a chair or something and just take a look at this right now. Because, again, like, this is a player who takes a lot of hits, takes a lot of falls, always seems to get right back up. And for her to be in that level of pain, to be down for that long, I think was just a shock to the system for everyone. I mean, the players were saying that, like, they felt the need to, like, calm Lindsay Gotley down in the moment because she was taking it harder, you know?
- [06:28]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah.
- [06:28]
Sabrina Merchant
And, yeah, the whole arena, I mean, just the minute Juju gets up, just starts booing, like, everything. Because Mississippi State is on the court at the time, and they're just booing indiscriminately at every single Mississippi State player. And I want to make it very clear, the video of this play doesn't look like there was anything untoward.
- [06:46]
Flauje Johnson
Sure.
- [06:46]
Zena Kaeda
Like, sure.
- [06:47]
Sabrina Merchant
Two players are running with Juju down the court, trying to make any attempt to corral her in transition. Juju falls down. Like, it seemed like a basketball play, and I think the USC fans probably are in agreement with that. It's just a matter of we're incredibly angry and upset at this moment, and you are the people we're gonna take it out on.
- [07:06]
Flauje Johnson
Yeah.
- [07:06]
Zena Kaeda
It felt as if, like, as everyone was waiting for her to get up, it was like, library quiet. And then the eruption came. And at home, you're not sure, you know, you couldn't quite see and understand where it was directed. If it was just, like, boo at the fact that she's Down. Boo at particular folks like, you know, Mississippi State. I think for me, I got emotional. I was talking to our producer, Tanika, before we started, and I think it was because in the weeks leading up to this tournament, we, the public, have been. And I don't want to say barrage, because there's, like, a negative connotation to this, but we have been consistently shown all of these images, particularly of juju Watkins in these very dominant, strong, forceful positions. Whether it's the Gatorade commercial, it's the Nike commercial, It's everything about her Persona that we have just seen where she feels invincible. She looks and feels invincible. And so to see her go down that way, and not only to see her go down, but the vulnerability and the fragility of her screaming in that manner felt like heart wrenching. It's like, this isn't supposed to happen. What is going on? And I think that that is what everyone immediately reacted to. And you saw just the flood of WNBA players, celebrities, I mean, Flee, the.
- [08:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Drummer from the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
- [08:35]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah. Like, you know, even tweeted out in support of juju. It just felt like everyone felt. I think that's what it was, is that we've all been seeing this image, and of course, we've been seeing her play. But even if you had never seen juju Watkins play a second basketball, you had seen these images of her just be the strong basketball player and role model. And for her to go down like that was just very jarring. I'm happy you brought up Lindsey Gottlieb, because I vividly remember the interview of Lindsey Gottlieb right after they won the Big Ten tournament.
- [09:07]
Sabrina Merchant
You mean the regular season?
- [09:08]
Zena Kaeda
A regular season. Yes, the regular season. Excuse me. And Lindsey Gottlieb being in tears, talking about how special of a player juju is. So after the game, you were in media, of course, you mentioned that you talked to the players. Did you have a chance and opportunity to hear from Gottlieb about the incident? What did she seem like? Like, what was the overall vibe of her, if you were able to see her?
- [09:34]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, absolutely. So I don't know if you recall, there was a play, like probably in the second quarter where Malia Samuels went down, you know, USC reserve guard, and she was on the floor for a little bit, and there was really nothing to be said about that. She just fell on a drive. Yeah, yeah. And she got back up pretty quickly. Honestly, like, she, you know, went back to the bench, came back, was in the game. No harm, no foul. I Don't actually know if there was a foul, but that's a bad expression. Anyway. Lindsay was pretty animated on the sideline at this moment. Like, she comes to check on Malia. She's, like, imploring the ref to upgrade this. Like, there's more contact there, you know, like, this not happy with, like, the way things are proceeding. And, you know, we asked her about that after the game, and she was like, well, you know, I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't rattled by what had happened with juju and, like, with Malia, like, you know, she got back up. I got there and, like, it was pretty clear that was not serious immediately. She just needed a second. But for what had happened with juju to, like, still be reeling with that.
- [10:27]
Flauje Johnson
Yeah.
- [10:27]
Sabrina Merchant
Sort of informed how she was, you know, just reacting to everything else later in the game. And how could you not? Right?
- [10:34]
Zena Kaeda
Right.
- [10:34]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, it's not just watching one of your players go down. It's, you know, honestly, maybe this is a little too cavalier, but, like, this is a chance for a national championship, and juju Watkins, your ticket to a national championship, and this is a good USC team. I'm not going to downgrade what they're potentially capable of against Kansas State later on this week and maybe going forward. But you win a national championship when you have players like juju Watkins and these windows, they don't just come around all the time and you can say, like, oh, she's 19. She's a sophomore. Like, she'll have another opportunity. We just. We just don't know. Right. Like, you never know who's going to be available, what miraculous chemistry is going to come together at the right time. But you knew in this moment, this is a team that could do it. Maybe they wouldn't. You know, nothing is guaranteed, obviously, but you just want to put yourself in the ring, have a chance and to know that maybe that was taken away in this moment and, like, there's just a lot to process all at once. And I can't even imagine, like, what the players were dealing with, what Lindsey Gottlieb was dealing with, what juju is dealing with. But, yeah, I've never really seen Lindsay like, that. She's pretty even keeled. Like, even when she was complaining about usc, you know, not getting the third number one seed last week, like, she was very direct and measured in her arguments. Like, she was obviously not happy, but she had, you know, reasons and, like, was giving you, like, a bulleted list of, like, what she was talking about. This was this was just different.
- [11:54]
Ben Pickman
Right.
- [11:55]
Sabrina Merchant
Everybody's a little bit heightened, a little bit off kilter. And you know, I think you saw that from, from everyone just manifesting it in different ways.
- [12:02]
Zena Kaeda
And I think that that's why I was so impressed with the way in which USC went on to win this game overall, 9659 over Mississippi State. And you think about the way that Kiki Iriyafan particularly stepped up, put this team on her back and her performance. Like, this is a team that has significant youth. And it was juju Watkins that was bridging the gap there between the youth and some of the more veteran players and like Aurora Marshall or Kiki Area Fenn and also Talia Van Olfhofen. But without juju, it's. It's pretty jarring that this is. There's two different, like, levels here within this one team. But again, juju, she was a great welder of those two groups together. But tonight those two groups came together and got the win in a very strong, forceful statement type of way. What did you make of the way that, you know, USC ended up winning this game? And particularly too, the way that the crowd sent off those seniors with the chants you heard as they came off the court?
- [13:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, you just think about, like, the incredible disparity of emotions that these players must been feeling. You think about Ray Marshall, who committed to USC and was basically Lindsey Gottlieb's first major, you know, prize recruit. And she comes to games where, you know, she jokes like that she could hear her mom giving her directions from the crowd because, like, there was just nobody. Right. It was so empty. And she's like, now, you know, now I gotta look and, like, make sure I know where my mom is. And I can't really see it. Like, it's good, it's good. And for her to have her last game in Galen center, you know, like, you mentioned the crowd chanting Rhea, Rhea, when she gets checked out for the last time. And to have to balance that with, oh, like, my teammate of two years just suffered like, you know, what looked to be a pretty bad injury in real time. We didn't know obviously at the moment what it was, but. And now, like, my chance of potentially winning a national title in my senior year, like, all of that together, really hard to balance. And, you know, when we asked to talk to Ray postgame, like, we were told that she was, you know, gathering herself, which, like, how could she not, right? Of course, you think about, like, Kiki Irafen and Sullivan Olhofen, who left really successful programs Right. To come for a chance of something different, something potentially better. And you know, von Olhofen, like, she was on Oregon State last year, they, they went to an elite eight and they celebrated every round like it was, you know, like there was no tomorrow. And like you walked by the locker room today like there's, there's no confetti anywhere, there's no water dripping anywhere like there. You didn't hear any jumping around or anything. It's just a very different mood than what normally happens in these winning situations. So, you know, kudos to Kiki. I thought, just intangibly, I thought she really did a good job of like just gathering everyone together, keeping the mood up. You know, I'm not sure if you were able to notice on television, but like, there's just multiple times where like, you know, Raya hits that buzzer beating three pointer at the end of the first quarter and Kiki's the one who just like lifts her up and like full bear hug. And there's a moment in the third quarter when Rhea sort of gets tangled on a held ball with one of the Mississippi State players and they sort of have to pull him apart. And Rayya is like, kind of just like antsy. And Kiki just starts dancing for her, like, you know, trying to distract her from like what's going on with the Mississippi State players.
- [15:14]
Zena Kaeda
Yes.
- [15:15]
Sabrina Merchant
And it was just a lot of that, a lot of that energy from Kiki, who kind of reminded me of this game that she played against Iowa State last year in the second round where Cameron bring fouls out, like star player gone for a very different reason, obviously. But there's Kiki stepping up into that number one role. She can handle this responsibility. And, you know, what does she do today against Mississippi State? 36 points. You know, I think she's like one of a handful of players that has 30 points for multiple teams in NCAA tournament history. But I just don't know how you reconcile everything that was happening in this game because on the one hand, your tournament is still going, you still have a chance to play against Kansas State. Everybody has, you know, the same opportunity to keep going, to keep pushing forward for Tampa. But like, you just watched something terrible happen to one of your friends, one of your teammates, and, you know, one of the best players in college basketball.
- [16:03]
Zena Kaeda
This is, I'm thinking about some moments about Kiki's leadership in general. You mentioned that Iowa State game. I think about the game that she had at Stanford against Oregon State, against Reagan Beers, when Coach Tara's legacy, the.
- [16:18]
Sabrina Merchant
Record Setting win, right.
- [16:19]
Zena Kaeda
The record setting win was on the line and Cameron Brink had fouled out of that game.
- [16:23]
Sabrina Merchant
I think she was injured for that game. Actually, it was just Kiki. The whole game was injured.
- [16:26]
Zena Kaeda
That's right. That's right. She was injured that game and it was Keke that had to step up in that moment. And so I think she's had this, this tons of examples in which she's been able to step up. She's been able to be a positive force. You saw her raising the roof on the bench as well as her teammates were out and closing out the game. And I think this is going to be something that's going to be huge. When you think about USC's trajectory in this tournament, now that we know for a fact that juju Watkins is out for the season, you have to look to Kiki as the person that can lead them in this tournament. But what does that mean? It's very different to be led by a post than to be led by a 30 point scoring guard. Right. What does that look like for USC dancing for the rest of this tournament?
- [17:15]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I just, I look at the bracket and it could not have broken worse, I think for usc because you're looking at a team where now they're without their best player and they're matched up against a five seed in Kansas State who's probably underseated considering they just welcomed back their best player in Aoka Lee. And now this is a matchup you have to face in the sweet 16 where you're going to be running things through Kiki Yuri Fen now and hoping for a lot of, a lot of good shooting from the freshmen. That trio of Kaylee Huckle, Kennedy Smith and Avery Howell is going to have to bring it. You think about what USC's strengths still are. They still have that full court press, that mad dog press that they like to call. You still have Ray Marshall at the front of that. Still very disruptive. I think the defense still works. You know, juju Watkins is a phenomenal help defender, but you've got Malia Samuels, you've got Kennedy Smith at the point of attack. Those things can survive. But you're just going to have to run a lot more offense through Kiki, which is harder against a team that has a player like Aoka Lee. But you know, you got to do what you got to do. And I just think, unfortunately this Wildcat matchup is really tough for them in this particular situation because this is a team that doesn't turn the ball over. So that Press like, it's really going to have to work because they have veteran ball handlers who, I was just.
- [18:25]
Zena Kaeda
Going to say the veteran, really good.
- [18:26]
Sabrina Merchant
At what they do. Right. With Glenn Sides, Serena Sundell, you know, one of the just most assured ball handlers in Division 1, I think. And then you're looking at a team where they shoot the ball incredibly well. I think they have the second best three point shooting percentage in the country. And USC's strength on defense is defending the paint. So is that kind of neutralized by the fact that, you know, you're playing a team that is so good at spreading the floor so you know you can only play the team that's in front of you? Obviously, I think USC is going to put up a hell of a fight. If your second best player is Kiki Erie Fenn, that's still a pretty damn good best player at this point. Still pretty good. And I would not bet against Kiki Irifan to show up and show out in the tournament like this is just what she does when she's given the opportunity. It's just a matter of if everybody else can come through and fill the void collectively that Juju leaves. Because it is a massive void, obviously. But they have players who have been in these situations before in, you know, Von Olhofen, even Malia Samuels was on the Elite Eight team last year and then that was the number one recruiting class in the country for a reason. So let's see what you got.
- [19:24]
Zena Kaeda
Right, right, right. I think what's changed for USC is rather than looking so far ahead to the Final Four for them, which folks were doing, you got to reel it in one game at a time. I think that's how you kind of have to look at the future here for usc. Now, my last question to you is Juju's career. Of course, you've covered many players that have had these sorts of injuries.
- [19:47]
Flauje Johnson
The comeback. What will that look like for Juju and this USC program?
- [19:51]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I mean, ACLs are traditionally like a 9 to 12 month recovery period. I think timing wise, it kind of reminds me of Olivia Miles a few years back when she tore her ACL in the final game of the regular season and she ended up missing that tournament and then the entire next season. I don't pretend to know what Juju's timeline is going to be, but I would assume that she's going to miss the bulk of next season, if not all of it. So that, you know, changes what USC is capable, obviously next year when they bring in actually another really good recruiting group. But yeah, I mean, I just hope that like so many people are already sending wishes of sympathy and so many people I know in her orbit have gone through this. Right. I mentioned Olivia Miles, Paige Beckers, who we were so excited to see her play up against. You know, she's gone through this. A lot of great players in the college game have gone through it. I mean, I'm in LA where Cameron Brink is rehabbing a tornado sale right now too. So a lot of support. I'm sure that she can rely on and I'm sure that she'll have the best access to rehab and doctors and whatever she needs in this time. But, you know, she's got a really good group of teammates that is going to play really hard for her as long as they can and that just we're heartbroken for her, you know. And, you know, I'm excited to see what juju looks like eventually coming back from this. I was just really a lot more excited to see what she was going to look like in Spokane.
- [21:06]
Zena Kaeda
Of course. Of course. The other player that comes to mind is Elizabeth Kitley and her injury with Virginia Tech.
- [21:13]
Flauje Johnson
Wow.
- [21:14]
Zena Kaeda
Well, Sabrina, thank you so much not only for your work of being there, being able to cover. I know you've written a piece on the site about the incident and everything, and we'll be keeping up with the news as it goes on, not only on this podcast, but of course on the site as well. And thank you for staying up and talking to us, bringing us into Galen center and giving us that perspective. In a second, I'm going to turn my attention to Ben and Chantelle who are going to talk to us about all the other teams that participate in the first and second rounds and what else we can look forward to as we head towards the Sweet Sixteen.
- [21:54]
Flauje Johnson
21 year old flaw J. Johnson has built an impressive career, making strides on the basketball court and the rap scene. A national champion and rising music star, she embodies the passion and determination required to excel in both worlds. But Flaje's success. Success hasn't come without challenges. The financial services industry has often overlooked the needs of women, leaving many feeling misunderstood or treated differently by financial professionals. For Flauje, this reality strengthened her resolve to take control of her financial future. Just as Flauge trains for success on the court, she understands the importance of preparation when it comes to her finances. MassMutual, a leader in helping people create a strong financial future, understands the unique financial challenges that women face. That's why they offer tools and personalized help so that women like flaujay can confidently plan and protect their financial futures, all with the goal of creating better financial outcomes for women everywhere. Visit massmutual.com stayready to learn more.
- [22:54]
Chantelle Jennings
Look around. You can find cars like these on autotrader, like that car riding your tail. Or if you're tailgating right now, all those cars doubling as kitchens and living rooms are on autotrader too. Are you working out and listening to this ad at the same time? Well, multitasking pro cars like the ones in the gym parking lot are for sale on autotrader. New cars, used cars, electric cars, maybe even flying cars. Okay, no flying cars. But as soon as they get invented, they'll be on autotrader. Just you wait. AutoTrader.
- [23:28]
Zena Kaeda
Welcome back to no off season. So, of course, there were a ton, ton of other games throughout the course of this weekend, throughout the rest of the big dance. And I've got my co hosts Ben Pickman and Chantelle Jennings to fill us in on all of the rest. Guys, how you doing? How much basketball have you been watching these last two days?
- [23:49]
Ben Pickman
A lot.
- [23:50]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. I can only imagine. I can only imagine. Ben, how you holding up?
- [23:55]
G
I am doing okay. Some travel, a lot of basketball, a lot of eyesoreness. Need the blue light glasses. Zena.
- [24:01]
Zena Kaeda
I was gonna say girl. No liter. Yes. I feel the same way. I feel like my skin and my eyes are absolutely taking a beating right now with the amount of screen time it's had. But I feel particularly bad for you, Ben, because out of all four of us, you're the one that's on the east coast normally. Like, I don't know how you're. You're doing it at least. Chantelle, you're next up because you're in central time. But at least Sabrina and I get a little bit more rest out on the west coast. But, Chantelle, I want to start with you as you look at all of this games, like, I mean, it was a crazy bored of games yesterday. And even though the outcomes were pretty predictable, I wanted to ask, like, what were some of the big takeaways you had from the first and second rounds?
- [24:45]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think that was it. I was like, through the weekend, I kept thinking back to, I think on last week's show when you said, everyone make a bold prediction. And Sabrina was like, I think it's gonna be pretty chalky. And I was like, damn you, Sabrina. You're right once again.
- [24:59]
Zena Kaeda
Right?
- [24:59]
Flauje Johnson
Yeah.
- [24:59]
Ben Pickman
I would say my big takeaway was, you know, it was pretty chalky. There's no reason to expand the tournament where, you know, Charlie Baker, the NCAA president, told me last week that, you know, if they expanded on the men's side, they'll expand it on the women's side. And I'm like, I don't know if we really need that. You've got teams beating other teams by 60 in the first round. You know, we can get into why that might be. But, you know, I will say that there were the ones and twos were tested. You know, not all of them, but most of them were tested, even if it wasn't for a full game. You know, we saw Richmond play UCLA really, really well for three quarters. Like, Maggie Dugan is household name in women's basketball because of what she did in that first half against ucla. You know, Vermont and NC State. Another good first round game for the start of it. Not necessarily the whole game, but, you know, I think we saw growth in the women's game there in terms of these two 15 matchups or the second round matchups with the ones and two seeds. And. And I thought that was important for the game as it moves forward.
- [25:58]
Zena Kaeda
Absolutely, absolutely. I think for me, you saw that some of these teams were human and you saw what other teams might be picking up on in terms of. All right, let's. Let's see what was working in the first half. I mean, I even say the first quarter against UConn. I thought South Dakota State was playing pretty well for a quarter. The game that really shocked me in terms of ways that it switched Florida State, lsu, that game was on pace for both teams to hit 100. And then LSU beats FSU by 30. I was like, all right, LSU put us on notice. Ben, what put you on notice throughout this weekend? What did you see that stood out to you?
- [26:37]
G
I think I just came away especially impressed by all the four, five games and just kind of the kind of magic and the intensity that. That it like, kind of comes about only in the women's tournament, especially compared to the men's tournament, because these four seeds are hosting games like, you know, pound for pound, they might be some of the most exciting games we see both in this year's tournament, but in also future tournaments because you have two power conference schools generally who are going up against each other. One of those teams has to go on the road has just missed out on this, like, uber privilege of hosting a game. And it still has all the stakes of an NCAA tournament game built in. Like, you don't have any of the neutral site energy. You have real home crowd energy. And so it feels like a big non conference upset that you see in the regular season except for the fact that you know whoever loses this game, their season is over. Right. Like the stakes are so much higher. And so those games really were the best games of the weekend. Right. Kansas State, Kentucky was this overtime thriller. Georgia Amor on her, she has this runner, you know, in overtime, right. And it doesn't go. It's like one of the most heartbreaking moments if you're a Kentucky fan. And then of course the Alabama, Maryland game was just an all timer going to double overtime that Maryland ends up winning, staving off, you know, an incredible comeback coming back from 17 down in the third quarter to beat Alabama who was the 5 seed. But like it had this amazing energy that you might get on a neutral for. But I kind of love it on the home court. It like it just adds to the juice when it happens. And even when like in that, that double overtime game when it doesn't happen for the Crimson Tide.
- [28:19]
Ben Pickman
Well in Tennessee, Ohio State, you didn't mention that as a four or five game but my gosh, like the way Ohio like fought back Cody McMahon like trying to throw the Buckeyes on her back and like claw them over the finish line in that game. And Tennessee just like unlike relentless sort of. It was, those four or five games were incredible.
- [28:37]
G
And we should say too, the extra edge from Ole Miss, like there's an extra edge when they be Baylor, like that's the fourth one, right. Like they the five seed Ole Miss pulls off the upset there and, and it clearly meant something for Ole Miss to not be hosting to then pull off that win against a school that was hosting.
- [28:52]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, yeah. I mean three five seeds going through three teams that hosted lost. Which I think is, is pretty significant.
- [28:58]
Zena Kaeda
And I want to ask you guys, I absolutely think you know, in terms of the trends throughout the weekend, the best games were the four or five seeds. And I want to ask, I know we've been looking and checking our, our brackets and shout out to everyone that's been a part of our no off season bracket pool. It was crazy that after the first, first round Ben, Chantelle, Sabrina and I.
- [29:19]
Ben Pickman
Were all like I like to tell.
- [29:20]
G
People this, Zena, I'm no longer checking my bracket by the way.
- [29:23]
Zena Kaeda
Wait, wait for it. Wait for it.
- [29:25]
Ben Pickman
I don't know what you're about to say, but you don't have to wait for it.
- [29:27]
Zena Kaeda
Wait for it. The way I'm looking at it, I was like who we did Such a good job telling folks about what was going on and what to expect from these teams that they're even beating us in the bracket challenge. That is how I'm going to frame that conversation.
- [29:43]
G
Yeah, love that, Love that generous framing Cena.
- [29:45]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, there you go. That's a nice reframe for us. Thank you.
- [29:48]
Zena Kaeda
For sure. I mean, but that's probably the most, the most non chockiness of the tournament that we've seen is particularly this, these brackets of games. And when you're thinking about these matchups, was it anything in particular that stood out to you as to why they would have been so much more competitive than the earlier first round matchups or even some of the other second round matchups that we saw? Like, why were these so competitive, so amped up in the way that they came out to be?
- [30:16]
Ben Pickman
Well, I think as a four and a five seed, they're the teams that are the most closely seated. These are mostly power conference teams that are, have played power conference schedules and tough non conference schedules. And so you sort of look at their overall body of work. The number of quad one teams that they've played, maybe quad one wins that they have is pretty similar, similar. And so you're looking at teams whose resumes, you know, when you get to that four or five line, like the committee is really, really like looking at some minuscule facts there. And so there's not a huge separation in terms of the ability on the floor, the pool at which these programs are recruiting. And I think Ben really sort of hit a good note on the head there, which is that the level of extra motivation that these five seeds have where it was like one more quad one win and maybe they're hosting one more quad one, maybe they get to sleep in their bed instead of take a flight and sleep in a hotel room and you know, have to go on the road for this game and be in front of their home fans. You know, especially I think for these seniors, you see a player like Sarah Ashley Barker from Alabama, her going into Maryland, trying to extend her season, obviously they were going to potentially go back to play in Birmingham, like the opportunity, but it's like all of that extra motivation you have when you were that close to being able to like have two more games or one more game in your home arena and you miss out on it. I think, I think that can really push a lot of teams.
- [31:34]
Zena Kaeda
I'm really happy you brought up Sarah Ashley Barker because I mean, if you didn't see that ending, you can thank Sarah Ashley Barker for Adding another overtime, hitting clutch. Three clutch free throws at the end of the game to Tie it to 96.
- [31:49]
Flauje Johnson
96.
- [31:50]
Zena Kaeda
It was surreal. And then her smile afterwards, it was sinister almost how she was just like, yeah, I got this team on my back. And it makes me want to ask you guys. She definitely was someone that stood out. Obviously, Georgia Amore was someone that stood out to me. Sarah Tibiasu from Maryland was someone that stood out. What were some of the players for you that stood out in these, the second round matchups that were just like phenomenal in the way that they brought their teams up?
- [32:15]
G
I mean, Paige Beckers is another, tying her career high in her final game in Gamble Pavilion. Like, I know there will be a lot of effusive praise of Paige Becker's over the next few weeks and months and years and decades, but like, you know, what a way to go out. And then she of course, like, said some, you know, she praised the crowd, thanked them for all their support after their big win over South Dakota State. Like, I think that was one of the performances that jumped out to me. I thought what NC State did kind of earlier in the day on Monday was really impressive. You know, Aziah James, she had 26 points, 10 to 17 shooting. Madison Hayes and I Rivers also had 17. Like NC State doesn't normally shoot the three like that. But what they were able to do against Michigan State, like that was as convincing of a win as we have seen. I think, you know, of this second round, like, they don't normally shoot it that well. They attempted 33. That's 10 more than their average. They, you know, made 15 of them. I think that was a school record, like super impressive performance by NC State. They were one of the teams that overall really did jump out to me from, from the first two weekends after eking out a win over Vermont. Vermont, we should say, but impressive in the second round, especially for sure.
- [33:23]
Flauje Johnson
Chantelle, what about you?
- [33:24]
Zena Kaeda
Any names that we don't know that might have stood out to you over the weekend?
- [33:28]
Ben Pickman
I wouldn't say their names. We don't know, but I'll stick with your favorite state, Xena, which Ben was just going on, but I think Alyssa Usby for unc obviously playing, playing there at home for the last time after five seasons. You know, she had some really great, great quotes after the game talking about Courtney Banghart, you know, accepting her as a recruit. She was someone who wasn't ranked in the top 100 for ESPN. And she literally said, you know, I brought the classes ranking down and coach Banghart still took a chance on me in recruiting me to come to this class and she had sort of one of those legacy nights I think that you dream of having and one of your last appearances on your home court. Ashlyn Jackson scored 14 third quarter points in a really tight game for Duke over Oregon. Toby Fournier was not in that game and so I'm happy brought her up every, every player to play as well as possible to get by an Oregon team that was really, really motivated, that had Deja Kelly, obviously former UNC player who had extra motivation to beat Duke on their home floor. And then you mentioned Georgia Amar for Kentucky, but Kansas State Tamir Poindexter, eight three pointers in that game, including a huge one to send it to overtime. Like that was just such an impressive performance as well. Yeah, like you look across the board, there's so many great performances and it's like we could spend an entire 45 minutes like talking about it, but there were just so, so many good performances over the weekend. I thought the way that Lauren Betts in the second half really responded to Richmond, I'm so happy you brought that up. Three point shooters around her like UCLA's response to Richmond, I will say as a whole was really impressive.
- [35:01]
Zena Kaeda
Let's talk about that because that's huge. Particularly UCLA looking shaky in that first half. Okay. The inside distinct for most folks watching that game was I don't see UCLA making it to the the Final Four playing like this. And I don't know if, if Corey close, you know, in her unorthodox way of coaching might have went into the locker room and said this is what they're saying about you folks. Pick it up, figure it out, get the ball to Lauren and relocate around her. But you saw a different UCLA team come out in the second half. But overall, thinking about the folks that are in that conversation for Final Four contention, LSU coming out and almost tying in the first half against fsu, UCLA and allowing Maggie Dugan from Richmond have a career night, basically almost.
- [35:56]
Ben Pickman
South Carolina, Indiana, another close game.
- [35:59]
Zena Kaeda
Yep, exactly half.
- [36:00]
Ben Pickman
They trailed at the half, I believe.
- [36:01]
Zena Kaeda
Correct. So. So looking at those games of these top teams that we've been talking about all season, Ben, I want to ask which one looked the shakiest to you and which response did you admire the most?
- [36:15]
G
I mean, obviously we're going to put USC aside in this conversation, as you acknowledge from the top, because there's so much uncertainty hovering over them, frankly, like I'm not too concerned about UCLA's performance or South Carolina's performance. Texas obviously cruise like, like, it's hard for me to get worked up over like a bad quarter or even like a close half in some of these games. Like, I think sometimes we overreact to just how games work. Right. Like, I think Indiana certainly was disruptive. You know, they limited South Carolina second chance opportunities. That's one thing as South Carolina gets ready to play Maryland. Like, South Carolina is so good on second chance opportunities. Offensive glass, like, IU did a really good job keeping them off the glass. That was key to, to them getting that early lead. But like, this is what good teams do. Like, they just, they reestablish themselves. They reestablish their dominance. And so I'm not like waving a flag about any of them, per se. I mean, look, I think what UCLA did, the 297 third quarter, like, it's as impressive a stretch as you can have that we saw all weekend. And Lauren Betts, as you mentioned, 30 and 14. Like, to me, the teams that were supposed to be good, like, were really, really good. It's why like, this sweet 16 sets up to be so exciting. Because you go up and down the list of these matchups. I mean, Notre Dame, TCU is a rematch of a game we saw earlier this season. Sets up to be a really, really good one. Notre Dame, you know, we didn't mention them yet. Like, they were really impressive. Blowing out Stephen F. Austin, blowing out Michigan by 20 plus points. Like, that's going to be a great game. Texas handled their business. You know, you talked about Duke, you talked about North Carolina. Like, the basketball that we're set up for in Spokane and Birmingham. I mean, Oklahoma is a team we have not mentioned at all. They were one of the teams that was most impressive to me. Reagan Beers, like, she got in foul trouble early in their second round game, but they had dominated the glass against fgcu. I think they doubled them up on the board. Something I want to say they had 72 rebounds or some crazy number that might have been a record. Like, I mean, they were, they were unbelievable. And they closed that game so, so well. And then we saw them pull away against Iowa too. Like, they look great. Like, to me it's more these other teams, the Twos, the Threes and the Fives, not the Fours as much being so competitive than like sounding the alarms about the. How the ones look this weekend for sure.
- [38:32]
Flauje Johnson
No, that makes sense.
- [38:33]
Zena Kaeda
And we definitely have to give credit where credit is due. The competition is there, the desire is there. And the way that these teams showed up I completely forgot players that we don't often discussed that really showed up. Skyler Van, like, shout out to the Van Sisters over at Oklahoma. They really, they really put the team on their back a little bit too. I mean, I think skylar finished with 17 points, which I've watched a bit of Oklahoma ball. She's usually not that much of a producer for their offense, so that was awesome for her to step up in that way. Shantelle, you know, thinking about the responses from some of these teams, I would put UCLA is my number one and maybe SC is my number two. SC being South Carolina. But like, what stood out to you in the way that some of these teams responded from, as Ben mentioned, just one bad quarter. This is basketball. There are ups and downs. It's a game of runs.
- [39:23]
Flauje Johnson
You know, this is normal.
- [39:24]
Zena Kaeda
But what did you like about the.
- [39:25]
Flauje Johnson
Way that some of these teams responded.
- [39:27]
Zena Kaeda
And reflected upon what their teammates, their opponents, excuse me, were doing to them.
- [39:31]
Flauje Johnson
And what they need to change?
- [39:32]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think part of, you know, one of the things that makes the women's tournament unique is that we do have these first two rounds are hosted by a top four seed. And that obviously creates some inherent advantages for the players who are at home. But like, Caitlin Clark spoke really openly the last two years about how much she wanted to get out of Iowa City. Like, she was so excited to get to Albany last year and get out of Iowa City because it was like, I just need to, like, we need to get out of here because it's just like to be on a neutral site will sort of feel like a relief in some ways. And so I do think there's that flip side of it where it's like a ucla, for instance, they're the one team that was like, you know, in the second round with a mid major. So maybe would have been the most shocking sort of upset the number one overall seed with a team like Richmond. And so, you know, they are sort of on this balance beam of like, shit, here's this mid major program that's come into Poly Pavilion that's, you know, outscoring us in the paint or equalizing us in the paint. And like we're supposed to be the best team in the country, we're the number one overall seed. Like there's a lot of mind games that can happen. And I think generally when I see these teams, it's like you don't get as worried about them because they don't appear rattled and they're sort of holding it together. Like Kiki Rice never sort of looked in that first half like everything's going to hell in a handbasket. Lauren Betts never looked like she was panicking. Same thing with South Carolina. Like, they're playing a tight game with IU. This is obviously a rematch of a Sweet 16 game from last year. So they know each other's personnel pretty well. Tahina Pow Pow has a really good friend on the other team. Like, there's all of these other storylines happening, right? But Tahina Powpow is, like, having one of the best defensive games of her life and, like, looking calm. And maybe it's not the greatest overall team performance because Indiana's really getting into South Carolina and their stuff, but they're not looking overwhelmed. They're not sort of like breaking down in any way. Same thing with Yukon and South Dakota State in the first quarter. Like, Paige is just sort of being Paige. AZ looks calm as ever. Like, everyone's going on as business as usual. And so I think that's kind of what you look to see in these early games. Like Ben said, it's one bad quarter, two bad quarters, or not even a bad quarter, just another team playing out of their mind for 20 minutes. That happens, too. And maybe it's like a confluence of multiple things, but you don't see, like, the backcourt players like Isaiah James and Zoe Brooks, like, going at it, like, freaking out. They're just calm. Everything's fine. Like, Vermont's hanging with us. Everything's fine. If we keep going back to what we're doing, we'll do our stuff. I thought Don Staley said really well after the IU game. Like, I was never stressed. Like, we were getting the shots we wanted. We just weren't making them. And like, you play the odds, eventually you're going to make those shots, you're going to make those layups. I'm not that worried about it. We will make our shots. Like, good basketball rewards you. And we were playing good basketball. We just weren't finishing. And it's like, I think a lot of teams kind of feel that way.
- [42:21]
Zena Kaeda
Speaking of poise and calmness, because I do see this being a trend, especially.
- [42:28]
Flauje Johnson
Amongst the experienced teams.
- [42:29]
Zena Kaeda
There was a hilarious moment in the Texas Illinois game in which when Madison Booker particularly started to cook, and that's another player we should call out in the way that she showed up. But Madison Booker cuts through the lane and I can't remember which player it was on Illinois, but I'm telling you, at the top of her lungs is shrieking ball Ball, ball. Like, trying to get her teammates to realize that Madison Booker is wide open on the baseline. And it was just like nothing she could do. She screamed as if her children were being ripped from her arms. And Madison Booker turns, turns, catches the ball, jumper, swish. Like, hits nothing but net. And it was so funny to me because I was like, yeah, those are those. There's just those type of players where you can freak out. Everyone on the floor knows how important it is to guard them, but there's nothing you can do once they catch the ball because they are so cool, calm and collected with it. Anyways, that I just thought it was hilarious moment. All right, obviously, there's still a lot more basketball to be played, but it is really cool now that we've gotten to see these teams get tested in the first and second round, finding their way and marking their way into the sweet 16. We still have some more time to break some of these games down, and we still have some more predictions to make. But Chantelle and Ben, thank you for all the basketball that you've been watching to even get us to this point. And I'm gonna let you guys go to sleep and wrap this show up by myself. All right, you guys go to bed.
- [44:01]
Ben Pickman
Thanksy.
- [44:02]
Zena Kaeda
No problem. Well, I just set the writers to sleep because it is late here on the West Coast. So that is all that we've got for you today. Thank you so much for joining us. And make sure you come back on Friday where we will be going deep on the biggest Sweet 16 matchups and the players to watch out for as it all plays out. And also check out the site because there's going to be a Great Big Sweet 16 preview that's live right now. Go check that out for sure. And stay tuned over the weekend to this show because we'll be dropping a special pod in between rounds to hit your feed on Sunday morning. You know, we know you can't get enough. If you're new here, hit that follow button wherever you're listening so you can stay up to date with us. Also, we want to hear from you. Reach out to us on social. Leave us a comment wherever you're listening. And while you're at it, if you don't mind, you know we're working hard. Give the show a rating. It really helps new people find this show. So definitely love when you guys give us that feedback. And if you'd rather watch our pretty faces, check out our YouTube channel where we've got full episodes and all sorts of clips. There's also more to read and hear and watch over at our partner, the Yahoo Sports Club. So check it out@sports.yahoo.com women's sports on behalf of the Athletic, I'm Zena Kaeda. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
- [45:27]
Flauje Johnson
No Off Season is hosted by Zena.
- [45:29]
Zena Kaeda
Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Brenna Haupt is our video editor. Shannon Reiter is managing editor of Women's Basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is our Director of Audio Operations.
- [46:00]
Flauje Johnson
21 year old flaw J. Johnson has built an impressive career, making strides on the basketball court and the rap scene. A national champion and rising music star, she embodies the passion and determination required to excel in both worlds. But Flauje's success hasn't come without challenges. The financial services industry has often overlooked the needs of women, leaving many feeling misunderstood or treated differently by financial professionals. For Flauje, this reality strengthened her resolve to take control of her financial future. Just as Flauje trains for success on the court, she understands the importance of preparation when it comes to her finances. MassMutual, a leader in helping people create a strong financial future, understands the unique financial challenges that women face. That's why they offer tools and personalized help so that women like flaujay can confidently plan and protect their financial futures, all with the goal of creating better financial outcomes for women everywhere. Visit massmutual.com stayready to learn more.