← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:01]
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- [02:34]
Zena Caida
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- [04:39]
Chantelle Jennings
For the athletic I'm Zena Caida and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Oh oh oh oh. Welcome back to another episode of the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's hoops. Whether you're a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the game or just a casual fan looking for a safe space to learn more, this is the space to do it. Make sure you subscribe to this pod. Wherever you get your pods. You want to stay up to date with what we're talking about and also subscribe to the Athletic. These people are writing really good content. They're giving you the in depth knowledge that you need so you don't want to miss out on that. Subscribe there too. All right, we are here with another episode to talk about some really interesting college basketball games that happened over the weekend. And if you were sleeping under a rock or paying way too much attention to, like, other things, men's basketball, you might have missed these two big time top 10 matchups that happened. Notre Dame took on USC on Saturday and then South Carolina and UCLA battled. Both games happened in LA over the weekend on Sunday. So lots of fun, lots of surprises. I got Sabrina Merchant and Chantelle Jennings in the building. We're going to talk about these two games because, yeah, this is a test. This is an early non conference, non March tournament type of test to see how could these ranked opponents do against some serious defense, some serious size, some serious competition, and some serious eyeballs too. I mean, the names that were in the building alone for some of these matchups were crazy. Sabrina, you were actually there for these matchups, particularly that usc. And I say Southern California when I say that versus Notre Dame game. And man, just the star power in the building. What was the feeling in that arena for that game?
- [06:47]
Sabrina Merchant
I really liked the framing of that because it made it seem like I was part of the star power in the building for usc. Wonder Jay. You were, but yeah, you know, Candace Parker, Cheryl Miller, Snoop Dogg, and a full on juju Watkins jacket and T shirt. Michael B. Jordan was there. I mean, just Cameron Brink, you know, a bunch of LA Sparks, Derek Hanby.
- [07:07]
Guest Speaker
Ray Burrell, Sabrina Merchant.
- [07:09]
Sabrina Merchant
Right. More WNBA personnel than I care to mention. But yeah, it was. USC is always a star studded affair and this was absolutely no different. It was buzzing.
- [07:20]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. Which is so dope. Like that was something that was also said on the broadcast. A lot is like, of course there were a lot of stars in the building, but there were a lot of scouts in the building too. Like some of these players are projected to go in the first round of their particular WNBA classes. Chantelle, when you think about this particular matchup, Southern California vs. Notre Dame, what were you looking forward to seeing in terms of evaluating how these two teams really could stand up in the tournament?
- [07:49]
Guest Speaker
I mean, the biggest thing for me with Notre Dame coming into it was like, how do Olivia Miles and Hannah Hidalgo as this like dynamic defensive and offensive backcourt for Notre Dame, look against actual teams? Like, their competition up to this point has been middling. You know, maybe one good team in there, but like, how do they look against a Final Four potential team? Because I think I was in Notre Dame 2 weeks ago talking to people, it's like, is this the best Notre Dame team that you guys have had since 2018? And everyone sort of feels like, yeah, this is the Most talented team they've had since 2018. But it's like, all right, let's see it against top talent on the floor. Let's see it against top competition. And that's what they finally got in usc. Like, it's sort of. I was so jealous of Sabrina this weekend. It feels like the biggest weekend for women's college hoops since beautiful Cleveland 2024. Like, sort of a final Four weekend wrapped into one city. And, like, we could see these four teams in Tampa in 2025. Like, I will not be surprised if this is our final Four, like, grouping. And so to have all of them in a regular season, you know, two regular season games, was really impressive. But to go back to it, Hannah and Olivia were sort of the two players that I was most curious to see.
- [08:57]
Chantelle Jennings
Okay, well, let me not bury the leaf, folks. Southern California matched up against Notre Dame at home and took the L home. 74, 61 was the final score. But, guys, that really doesn't encapsulate just how dominant Notre Dame was. Yes, that's only a point differential of 13, but they led as much as 23 points throughout the game. I mean, and they kept Southern California to shooting 7.7% from three. Like, unbelievable. You talk about tenacious perimeter defense. It makes sense that Hannah Hidalgo is in that conversation. Sabrina, you got to see Hannah Hidalgo play for the first time in person. And let's just be real, this sophomore, if you saw her freshman year, particularly when she made her debut on the Paris stage against the other sc, South Carolina, you saw just how ferocious she is as a defender. But now she's a year smarter, she's a year stronger. She might be a little taller. She looked taller to me. I don't know why, but she's a year better overall. What did you see when you saw her out there on the court?
- [10:11]
Sabrina Merchant
So the first thing that stands out with Hannah Dalgo, when you watch her live and highly recommend if you can make it happen in person, just make it happen. She celebrates everything. Like, ball goes out of bounds on a slight deflection, clapping her hands, you know, good jump shot taken. Maybe it doesn't even go in. We're getting, you know, like, everything. Everything is getting affirmed, motivated. I mean, if there's a tie up and Hannah is not even part of the tie up, she's away from it. She starts clapping and, like, hooting before the referee even blows the whistle. You know, there is a lot of enthusiasm, excitement. She recognizes that this is her role to fulfill within the team. She brings the energy and 40 minutes worth, like, it is non stop unending for Hannah. I think playing with Olivia Miles has really just emboldened the disruptive aspect of what she can do. Because now you have Olivia guarding at the point of attack, guarding, you know, the point guard. And that's what Hannah had to do last year. And now she just gets to be this Roamer, you know, she just. The way Lindsay Gottlieb described it, right? Like, then you have Hannah just running around disrupting everything, like, you know, just little vines coming through, you know, and that's exactly what she does. Right. Notre Dame understands principally what they're doing. You've got Sonia Citron who gets to defend the best wing. You have Olivia Miles on the point guard, Kate Koval in the middle with the, you know, interior defense. And so that gives Hannah a little bit of freedom to just play help, you know, little free safety and just figure out where the openings are. And it's just dynamic to watch. It's really, really interesting to see in person. And I mean, even looking at the court, like, from, like, a little bird's eye view, you can't exactly figure out what Hannah's seeing, but she is always seeing something, so it's special. I don't. I don't think she looked any taller, but, like, she doesn't need to be, right? Like, just this little 5, 6 thing just sneaking in at you is kind of. Kind of the point.
- [11:52]
Chantelle Jennings
She was just surreal.
- [11:53]
Guest Speaker
I feel like when we talk about really tall players, like, whenever you talk to coaches about, like, Lauren Betts or Ayoka Lee, it's like, well, you can't teach six, seven. Like, that's the, like, the line they always give you. I feel like with someone like Han Hidalgo, it's like you can't teach defensive instincts like that. Like, I don't want to discredit. Like, she spends a lot of time in the film room. I think she and Niel spend a lot of time breaking down opponents, looking at stuff. But there's a part of her game that is just, like, inherent to who she is as a player. Like, there was that one play, I think it was in the third quarter where she was guarding Talia Von Olhoffen, and she kind of went up on her and pressed her and kind of poked it away towards half court, goes for the steal at half court, misses it. Thalia turns and goes, and then she, like, is passing it and out of, like, I was watching on tv, so I didn't even see. She's not even on screen. She comes back and steals the past Juju Midway and it's like.
- [12:39]
Chantelle Jennings
Like a free safety, right?
- [12:41]
Guest Speaker
Truly. Like, she wasn't even in the frame and she just like pops back in there and you're like, of course she would. But, like, that's so normal for her. And I think the freedom that gives that team, like, I don't even think of it as gambling anymore when I watch her. I've had a chance to see her in person a few times in practice. And, like, it's not even gambling because she just has not only the speed and the quickness and sort of the IQ to play within their system, but just that next level of whatever it is about what she sees on the floor that no one else sees. Like, she just makes shit happen.
- [13:13]
Chantelle Jennings
It's defensive instinct and also defensive desire, right? She want. You can tell that she wants to be good on defense for them. And I don't want to discount the rest of what Notre Dame did, too, because I'm so happy you mentioned Sonia Citron. She played big, especially in front of Juju Watkins, Kate Covel, like a freshman, folks. A freshman that's just getting her chops wet. And she has been phenomenal already for Notre Dame as a presence inside. You know, we were in our group chat as we were watching this game talking about Kate Covel and her game, particularly her impact on the inside game, because Keke Iriafin, projected number two pick in this upcoming WNBA draft, okay, she still ended up with 15 and nine, don't get me wrong. But she went five of 15 from the floor. She had some struggles against Notre Dame. It just seemed like she was getting rushed inside and Kate Covel was a wall every time almost that Keke was up there. I feel like a lot of her buckets came off of maybe just being in the right place as balls came off from shots, et cetera, versus her being able to make her moves like she did, like she has normally. What did you like out of the supporting cast of the Notre Dame defense and how it all came together to be just terribly difficult for USC to handle?
- [14:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I just want to say first of all, that Kiki Areafen is only projected number two in the WNBA draft. If you're not reading the Athletic, I had Olivia Miles there coming into this game, and I feel very good about that. Yeah, that's fair decision, you know, coming out of that performance. But, you know, Notre Dame defense, let's. Let's get into that. I thought Leah to King was phenomenal taking the Kiki Iriafan assignment in the first half. You know, she's not as big as her, but she was fronting her really well. And when you combine that with the ball pressure that Notre Dame has in the perimeter, it made it really hard to just even deliver passes into Kiki. And then you had Kassan Prosper coming off the bench, who is 6 foot 2, kind of just comes in for anybody who needs a break at the moment. Like, it's just you need a guard break. That's Cass. If you need a center coming off, Cass comes in. And she was the other juju defender. So that Sonia Citroen had a little bit of a break during the game, and she's really long, really active. I thought just having that versatility and that mobility was so helpful for Notre dame because guarding Juju for 40 minutes is really taxing physically. And to give, you know, Citron a break and allow Prosper to step in, just another player who blocks all of juju's sightlines, was tremendously helpful for Notre Dame.
- [15:44]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, well, I was just curious. I mean, we're talking about a lot of the supporting cast, but like, you know, the most important defensive assignment here was Sony on Juju Watk. And Juju finished with 24, 6 and 5. It's a good stat line, but you break that down into her efficiency. She was 10, 25 from the floor, 0 of 5 from 3. Looking at the shot chart, it looked like Juju likes to get to her right and sort of take those mid range pull ups from the elbow block extended a little bit. She likes to get to the top of the key. It really felt like they tried to keep her out of that area specifically. She settled for five threes, obviously, but most of her mage shots actually came from the left. Did Sonya Citron do anything in particular that you thought was more effective than we've seen other teams try to defend, or what did she do that was more effective than the ways other teams have tried to defend Juju?
- [16:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I think first and foremost, she denied juju the ball when she was in her spots. It was just hard to deliver the ball to juju on that right side of the floor. As you mentioned, they were more comfortable shading her to her left. And if they were trying to pass it to juju in that pocket, Soni's right there just making sure that juju doesn't even get the ball to begin with. The fact that she's long and tall and, like, athletic enough, to. Which is saying something because juju Watkins is a premier athlete that she could just stay with her, you know, like as juju moves off the ball, which I think is one of kind of the underrated parts of her game. Like she's on the ball so much that you kind of forget that she is doing a lot to move and get herself open when she isn't running the offense. So I thought that was part of it. And then I thought they kept up with juju fairly well in transition. That's where she gets a lot of her bread and butter. Because she's so physical, it's very easy for her to just power through the lane. She has that little Euro step two when she's on the break. And I thought that Notre Dame just matched up well in transition so that juju didn't get any easy baskets and then you see something go in and all of a sudden start to feel a little bit more comfortable as the game wears on. But the funny thing about Sony is she is so humble and self effacing to a fault that Hannah was the one in the post game press conference who was, you know what I learned from this game is that Sony can guard anybody in the country and I don't know what she's talking about, but we don't do anything without her. She's the head of this defensive effort and all of that jazz. But I just don't think most teams have a player with the physical capacity of Sonya and the fact that she's also a senior and has seen so many of these defensive signs before. Notre Dame is putting her on. Paige Becker is back in January when they're playing in UConn and that's an assignment that I think she again did very well on. So yeah, there just aren't a lot of defenders with the physical capability and the experience that Sony has and that Notre Dame has her and prosper like if Citron just like needs a spell is kind of unfair in terms of their just defensive capabilities.
- [18:21]
Chantelle Jennings
It definitely made me think of like her, her defense and her tenacity made me think of Nica Mule in the way that she was just like in her face and making things difficult for juju all game long. Overall, I said earlier that Notre dame had a 23 point lead. Excuse me, I was foreshadowing for the next game we're talking about they had a 21 point lead. But that just gives you an idea of how lopsided were especially early on. Notre Dame ended up being able to force 17 steals, a total of 21 turnovers. What was interesting though was Notre Dame wasn't Perfect. They had 20 turnovers themselves. So it wasn't as if, you know, they were taking care of the ball perfectly, but what they were was more efficient when they did have the ball, they had less shots and just were more efficient from the four in general. Now let me just close out giving Notre Dame their flowers by saying, Niel Ivey, oh, you looked amazing, sis. If you listen to the podcast, that Alexander McQueen looked phenomenal on you and I was inspired to wear lipstick because of you on Sunday when I did my show in the Bay Area. Anyways, let's move it to usc and I'm talking about Southern California. Any concerns, ladies? Because this was a demonstrable case of can you play against good defense? And now I'm, I'm worried. I'm worried about what this Southern California offense looks like in terms of adjusting and also figuring out how to utilize Juju Watkins better, how to utilize Kiki Iriafin better when defenses are adjusting to their game plan. So, Chantelle, I'm gonna start with you. Thoughts, concerns. What does Southern California need to do in order to not go down the way they did against other good defensive teams like a UConn, for example?
- [20:14]
Guest Speaker
Yeah. Speaking as the person who texted Sabrina like five minutes into USC's first game of the season and said, I have some fears about USC's ability to win a national title, I think all of us have a tendency to like, you know, Monday morning quarterback and like, this is what should have happened and oh my God. And then like project forward and say like, the sky is falling in a little bit, a little bit of a way. I think I'm of two minds here a little bit. Like, this is still a team that is relatively new together five games into their season, you have these two sort of potentially huge stars learning how to play together. With Kiki and Juju, that takes time to develop. You have a ton of freshmen. Most of Lindsey Gottlieb's bench and most of her depth is freshmen. That takes a while to learn to play together. I think in general, though, when I watch usc, specifically in half court offense, I still want to see more movement. There's a lot of watching juju. What is she going to do? Like, you know, I went back and watched the Synergy clips this morning of like all of Juju's half court plays yesterday and there's times when it's like Juju has the ball and everyone's sort of waiting to see what she does. And there's like Kaylee Heckle in the corner, like Waving her arms like, I'm here, like, you can pass the ball to me. And it's like. It just sort of feels like there needs to be more movement and flow within this offense. But again, this is a team that's five games in, and I think that's something that comes with time and more. More time together specifically. So I'm not that concerned because this is also a team that has to play through the Big Ten schedule. Like they're going to see a ton of really good teams and have a chance to grow together. Am I a little, you know, a little concerned? Maybe. A little concerned just about, like, maybe this is still a team that's like a Final Four team and one year off from a national championship sort of a thing. Like, I think I'm less high on USC now than I was a month ago. Again, this is five games into the season and five games from now. Maybe I'm feeling completely differently, but I just think there are some pieces here that need to be fixed, and I think time can fix those, but there are definitely pieces that need to be fixed.
- [22:07]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. There's two things that stand out to me about usc. One is that this is just a much younger team, like Chantel was saying, than what they had last year. Lindsey Gottlieb likes to give her players a lot of freedom in the half court and, you know, to make reads, to see what, you know, to read what they're seeing on the floor. And that's one thing when you have, you know, Juju Watkins was a freshman last year, but they had three Ivies, and Kayla Williams and Taylor Bigby are both seniors coming off the bench. And it was a very veteran team that was, you know, playing Lindsey Gottlieb's system. And now you have. Yeah, Juju's a sophomore and Kiki, this is her first year in the system. This is Talia Von Olhofen's first year in the system. And then you have all of the freshmen, right. So one of whom actually was injured for this game, and Kennedy Smith, who doesn't really have a timeline for her return, but hopefully will be back at some point this season. So I think at this point of the year, they just need more structure, which is kind of antithetical to the way Lindsey wants to run her team because she likes them to be able to play freer and just, you know, make decisions based on the defense. But I'm not sure that they're there yet because of how young they are. And so, yeah, maybe you want to see them have More set plays and structured offense in a game like this. But also is it better for the long run that they're learning how to make these mistakes now versus in February, March? So I see the long game, but I'm just not sure that it's going to work for this particular team because of how young they are. And then the second thing is their spacing just sucks. Manol Hoffman is not a great three point shooter. I think she had this sort of reputation coming out of Oregon State as a clutch shot maker and maybe that's still true, but. But her percentages from 3 point range have kind of gone down every year since she's gotten into college and she couldn't hit anything against Notre Dame. Like these are wide open threes, not even hitting rim. So you have that. You have two bigs, neither of whom really is a long range shooter in Ram, Marshall and Kiki area Fenn. And then, you know, none of the freshmen have really started to hit from long range either. Like that's not Kaylee Huckle's game. She's more of a driver. Avery Howell hasn't found her shot, so I just.
- [23:59]
Guest Speaker
And Juju Watkins isn't shooting well from range. Juju Wakins isn't now 18% on the year.
- [24:03]
Sabrina Merchant
Exactly. So it's so easy to crowd the paint on this team and not really suffer any consequences because nobody is going to make you pay from even mid range, honestly. So, you know, I kind of trust Lindsey Gottlieb to figure out how to manufacture spacing with all of like the, you know, concepts that she's running. But also like, who on this offense is really gonna like force defenses to sell out and like, you know, stretch and get you out of the paint? Like I just don't see it right now. And that should be Von Olhoffen, I think. But it hasn't happened yet.
- [24:28]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I will say, I don't know if you guys saw that halftime interview with Lindsey Gottlieb. Sabrina, you were in the building. But Chantel, I'm not sure if you saw it, but she looked like a deer in headlights, like when she was being asked questions. I think she was just shocked at how poorly her team responded to this defense being in their face. And she was shocked at how much exactly what you're saying, Sabrina. That their free and loose offense was not working and the instinct that I think she had assumed was within her players did not pan out. And it was just kind of like a holy crap, I gotta go in there and figure some stuff out. And you're right. I think they're definitely, they could definitely benefit from having some structure that isn't let juju get the ball and do her thing. Right. That's not a set play they need.
- [25:18]
Sabrina Merchant
Which admittedly can work against a lot of teams that don't have Sonya Citron in Cass Prosper.
- [25:22]
Chantelle Jennings
Correct. It was Southern California they had. Was it Ole Miss or was it Louisville? I can't remember which one they had Ole Miss. Okay. Like, and you saw this struggle then too, right? So every team, you know, every team that's defensively minded can figure it out, can figure out a way to make things difficult for them. And it seemed like Lindsey Gottlieb didn't have an answer in that moment. But you better be sure that she's going back to the playbooks and figuring some things out too.
- [25:47]
Guest Speaker
You know, I think back to like when I was covering men's basketball and I was covering Michigan and it was before a Syracuse game and John B. Line had like put hockey sticks like on his players arms to sort of pretend to be the length of the Syracuse zone defense, like how long that zone was. Like this is the only way that we can sort of mimic the length of this defense. And this is sort of what like I think like every team in the country basically did this, right. You can't like pretend to be Sonya and Hannah and Olivia and Kate and like a 6, 5 person in the middle and then sort of Lia Tu King's like six foot, athletic. I don't care how good your scout team is. Like, like I don't think you have all of those pieces. And so the first time you see a Notre Dame like defense is when you're playing Notre Dame in a game. I think Notre Dame only plays one team twice this season. And so this is what I think is particularly going to make them really dangerous in the tournament is like especially on a short turnaround, like there's no way when you're planning for Notre Dame to sort of pretend to have this defensive set a week in advance. Like when you've got 48 hours and you're like, okay, this is what we're facing. Add to that the fact that at some point in the season they're going to get Liza Carlin and Maddie west belt back. Like more size coming off the bench or starting like scary. This is just a team that like more and more. Like I'm talking myself into ranking them number one now. I didn't put them number one and I'm like, maybe I should have. Sabrina did Put them number one so she can brag on that right now. But, like, they have everything.
- [27:12]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I just got the visual of Maddie Westfield coming back, too, and I'm like, wow. And that means their offense is going to get even better at that point. I want to quickly wrap this game up and move the Sunday matchup. Any last thoughts on this game?
- [27:26]
Sabrina Merchant
The one thing that just does give me a lot of hope for USC going forward is their defense still looks really good. I think juju Watkins has been a lot more impactful defensively this season than she has been offensively, which is saying something considering how many big scoring totals she's already put up. But she's been excellent. Just, you know, individual assignments. I think the fact that, like, Olivia Miles hit four pull up three pointers kind of disrupted what USC was trying to do defensively. But, you know, it's not exactly on her scouting report, as some WNBA GMs who were in attendance also did not quite realize it was on her scouting report. But good for her. And I think Rhea Marshall has been so very good protecting the paint. Like, she had a couple blocks in transition. There were a couple situations where, like, Notre Dame drivers couldn't even really get a shot off because they were afraid of, like, how to angle it around Raya. So, you know, they have a lot of length. You know, Kiki's been good on that end. Defensive rebounds, too, has been really good for Kiki. I think even the freshmen have sort of bought in defensively. And, you know, you mentioned Notre Dame's size and length. USC has that across the board, too. Like, they're a very long team. When you have a 6:2 guard like Juju Watkins, that obviously helps things out. But I think they're going to have such a high floor because of that defense that it'll allow them some time to figure out just whatever is going on offensively.
- [28:32]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. Chantel, you just made me think about when you're talking about having the sticks on, you know, trying to imitate Syracuse's defense or whatever it was, it makes me think of Becky Hammond in the Finals talking about, you don't realize how big the New York Liberty are until you're out there playing against them. And that feels the same with Notre Dame. They have this just superimposing size to them. All right, let's flip the page and talk about the next SC game. And this time we're talking about South Carolina going to ucla. And guys, it was a lot of the same. This SC team struggled, too. And like, I kind of Gave away the surprise there earlier, but 23 point lead at one point throughout this game, UCLA had over South Carolina. They ended up winning the game 77 to 62. In both of these cases, the lower ranked team beat the higher ranked team. Unreal offensive performance from ucla. I mean I don't think anyone could have scouted how well they shot the ball. 47.6% from three. Not necessarily their bread and butter. The funny thing is South Carolina shot even better than that. They had 66.7% from three. But the difference, only 12 attempted three point shots for South Carolina, 21 for UCLA. It was just a brigade of three pointers coming from UCLA. And then on top of that, as coach Corey Close of UCLA said, I have Lauren Betts and they don't. It's that simple sometimes folks. But overall this game, UCLA pounced from the start and they had the momentum, the energy, you know, not to mention that arena was rocking for them. It was packed and it was so full and so I want to start there. Just the atmosphere around that game overall. Sabrina, give us kind of the layout.
- [30:41]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so a little bit less celebrity heavy at UCLA than it was at usc. That's just, you know, public public school for you, which it's nice. Everybody's got their own identity in Los Angeles.
- [30:49]
Guest Speaker
Jason Sudeikis erasure is just unbelievable.
- [30:54]
Sabrina Merchant
Sudeikis was.
- [30:55]
Guest Speaker
Although he was at both games. He was at both games.
- [30:57]
Chantelle Jennings
He made both games.
- [30:58]
Guest Speaker
We didn't mention him earlier.
- [30:59]
Sabrina Merchant
I don't even mention it because he's just there all the time. He's just at all games. Standard women's basketball attendee. But yeah, I thought the only UCLA game I've ever been to that had better atmosphere than this one was when they played Southern California last year the first time during that regular season. And just the in city rivalry, the fact that both teams were really good and undefeated at the same time added a little something, something extra to that which even South Carolina coming in with their 43 game winning streak and defending national champions 33 game road streak, you know, number one in the poll for the last year. Yada yada, yada. Something about, you know, your own local rival is just a little extra. So I'd say it's probably the second best atmosphere I've ever experienced at a UCLA game, but still rocking. Everybody had their white pom poms ready to go for ucla and it was just electric. I mean it was, it's so fun to think that like I grew up in the city where nobody gave two shits about College basketball, like, at all. I mean, we're like, past the point where people, like, even remember who John Wooden is. When you think about UCLA on the men's side. And now to have both of these buildings just rocking and, like, everybody's thinking about this, and you can have conversations about USC and UCLA basketball, and you don't have to specify that you're talking about women, that they just, like, assume that that's what you're talking about, because that's the team that actually matters.
- [32:15]
Chantelle Jennings
Right.
- [32:16]
Sabrina Merchant
It's very cool.
- [32:16]
Chantelle Jennings
It is very cool. It is very cool. One of the coolest things that happened yesterday is I was talking to someone about the great game that Hawkez has. Mind you, Gabriela Haquez and her brother Jaime played yesterday, both okay. On Sunday. And they knew I was talking about Gabriella. Yes. Even though the Heat, I believe, did take the win over the Dallas Mavericks. So shout out to Jaime, too. But anyways, back to women's basketball now. Chantel, UCLA having the start that they did, were you anticipating that?
- [32:47]
Guest Speaker
I mean, we kind of talked about this on the show last week, that South Carolina had been off to some slow starts recently, and I forget. I think it was Eastern Carolina who they sort of bucked that trend against last week. But it was like, of the first five games they played, four had slow starts, or of the first four, three had slow starts. And I don't think so. I mean, I think UCLA came out as the aggressor in this one, and they really had a game plan that they wanted to stick to, and they're really disciplined in that, and South Carolina had to sort of respond to that. And Don Staley said afterwards, you know, they executed their game plan exactly how they wanted to, which I thought was really interesting. It made me think a lot about the game two years ago in Columbia when UCLA traveled out to South Carolina to play and they lost by nine points. But just sort of how complimentary Dawn Staley was of Corey Close in the UCLA program after that. This is a really good young team. They've got them making something really great here. And obviously at the time, I think Kiki Rice was the only starter at that point who's still on the team. But the pieces of what they were building then, like Dawn Staley even saw now, and she even said, she's like, this is what we usually do to other teams. And it's hard to be on the other side of it, but it's like acknowledging that it's good for basketball and that beautiful basketball was being played and so I think UCLA just went out and executed what they wanted to do. And South Carolina, to their credit, said, you know, they more or less executed what they wanted to do to Lauren Betts. And then everyone else kind of went off. And when you have London Jones hitting five of five from three, like, there's only so much you can do at that point.
- [34:12]
Chantelle Jennings
I'll tell you when I got concerned, like, the moment that I was like, ooh, this is not going to go well. It was early in the game. Khloe Kitts put a shot up, and I swear Lauren Betts put a table. Like, if it looked like Chloe Kitts shot under a table, like, the ball went nowhere. And I was like, oh, wait, hold on, this isn't going to be good. Like, there's going to be. And you look at the way that the bigs finished against UCLA. Khloe Kitts going 1 for 7 from the floor. Joyce Edwards, the freshman for South Carolina, going three for eight. You know, not bad, but definitely not what she's capable of doing. Ashlyn Watkins going three for eight. I'll say this. Ashlyn Watkins has been the best defender on Lauren Betts I've seen all season. She played the high side and going around her incredibly well. But the pressure and the size for UCLA definitely made an impact defensively, especially because South Carolina was trying to find ways to get inside, trying to incorporate their bigs. And it became a game where they had to really rely on Tahina Powpow hitting outside shots, Tessa Johnson hitting outside shots. What would you say when you're looking at this, the way that UCLA was able to dominate, would you say that the guard play in Lyndon Johnson? Gabrielle Oaxaca is, like, going all the way to the basket, getting fouled multiple times. Alina Arnisalo, oh, my God, the freshman from Finland. Like, the way that she was playing. Would you say guard play really ruled this game? Or would it be what most people around the country would look at? Like, no, it was do glitch. It was Betts. It was the size inside. Like, what do you think was more dominant for ucla?
- [35:51]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, I think that's the beauty of the Bruins is that it's all of it. You know, you didn't even mention Janiah Barker, who I thought was actually the second best big, you know, after Lauren Betts. Just defensively was really good. I mean, what a revelation she's been in this role. Like, this is not what I expected out of Janiah Barker coming out of those tours out of Texas A and M. But I think it's the combination of things, right? Like, Kiki Rice has her first game without a minute's restriction, and she looked really good. You know, run and pick and roll with Beth and Gardiner and, you know, getting to the basket. Arnisalo, I think, is really the one who's going to make the most waves after this game because nobody knew who she was. You know, this Finnish point guard who wasn't on any recruiting lists, sort of shoved into the starting role on opening night because Kiki Rice was hurt and immediately commits four turnovers in the first quarter against Louisville because it's her first game of college basketball and she's playing against Jeff Waltz defense. And this is a reminder where first impressions are really hard to break, but they're not always correct. And, yeah, she had some difficulty in ball control in that particular situation, but ever since, she's just been dynamite for ucla. I think her allowing Kiki to play off the ball has been, you know, amplifying for both of them. She is just so crafty with the ball in her hands and just another really big guard, too, who doesn't give up anything they want to do defensively. Like, you watch UCLA on defense, and you've got like 5 foot 10, 11, Kiki Rice. Alina Arnisala is the same height. Tamia Gardiners, they're small forward. She's six foot three. Then Angela Dugalich, six foot four, Lauren Betts, six foot seven. I mean, London Jones comes in, and that changes things a little bit defensively, because London is Delightful, but like 5 foot 3 at best. And everybody else, though super long, super tall, and you can't see around them defensively. And I think that's really what impressed me most about UCLA is that, like, you talked about the run. They got to start off the game through five minutes. This game was like two nothing, right? So the fact that they had played this well defensively and not really had anything to show for it through five minutes is kind of what impresses me the most about ucla, is that they still were able to just pour it on. Like, their bench comes in, and this is what South Carolina does, right? Like, they have the bench that is supposed to demoralize everybody. And, like, we have five second unit players who are just as good as our starters. Well, that was UCLA in this particular case. They had London Jones, Gabriela Hakis and Janiyah Barker coming off the bench, and they were the ones who absolutely took control of the game. I mean, London hits the three that, like, kind of bounces off the Rim and then goes back up and comes back in to put them up 15 2. And the place absolutely explodes because first of all, London Jones is UCLA's favorite player, bar none.
- [38:17]
Chantelle Jennings
Like Mighty Mouse.
- [38:18]
Sabrina Merchant
Not the best player on the team, but yeah, Mighty Mouse, yeah. Everybody loves London Jones. And, you know, just to have that kind of luck, you know, on your side against South Carolina, I think that was the moment for me when they went up 15 2. At that point, I was like, oh, so we're in for something special here today.
- [38:32]
Guest Speaker
I mean, I think it is that balance of ucla. Like you said, it's not just the inside, it's not just the outside guard play. Like, if there's any team in the country that can attest, like, to the value of having a 6 foot 7 center and how that makes life easier for everyone, it's South Carolina. Like, the reason why they were as good as they were last year is because of Camilla Cardoso. And now we're seeing it with ucla where it's like, all of these players have certainly gotten better since last year. And I think Alina Arnisalo has been, like you said, a revelation for this team and someone that we weren't talking about. Who, you know is going to be a part of the freshman of the year conversations, I think, by the end of the season. But, like, they are, and they can be as good as they are because of what Lauren Betts does for this team and how she changes sort of the. The weight of what's, you know, on the floor. Like when she is in the paint on either side, like everything else, just sort of feels a little more free, a little more open because she's there.
- [39:22]
Chantelle Jennings
She played 37 minutes, more minutes than anyone else on the floor. I thought that was probably the most impressive thing. I recently did a WNBA segment on the draft on NBC Sports Bay Area in the Bay. And Natalie Esquire, who also covers women's basketball for NBC, mentioned Lauren Betts and she compared him to a Nikola Jokic in the sense that she can see the floor. She's gonna be on the floor for a long period of time. Um, and I know we don't like to make women's basketball to NBA, but Nikola Jokic is MVP caliber. And I think that's a huge compliment to Lauren Betts because this is her stat line, folks. 37 minutes, five for eight on the floor, ended up with 11 points, six offensive rebounds, eight defensive, for a total of 14 four blocks. We know that, but this was my thing. Four assists. How many times she got the ball in the post, turned around and found her teammates on the opposite wing. It was beautiful basketball with her getting the ball. But let's just be real. Her guards still struggle. They still struggle to get her the ball. What is the answer? Do I gotta go get give some some drills to coach close like what's going on? Why are the guards still struggling after all these years to get her the ball? What did you guys see out there?
- [40:42]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I mean it's South Carolina's defense, so that's part of it, you know. Sure, I kind of agree with Don Staley that they did execute the game plan as they were supposed to. It's just you're not a catch accounting for five threes off the bench from London Jones. And in a 15 point win that is quite literally the margin between winning and losing. So, you know, part of it is like Ashton Watkins really good defending the post and I Fagan really good defending the post. Like they're going to make things difficult in terms of getting the ball to Lauren right away. And you have Raven Johnson on the perimeter and like other good guards who are making those actions difficult. It is only year two of Lauren Betts, so not exactly all of these years trying to get the ball to her.
- [41:16]
Chantelle Jennings
I feel like last year was such a long struggle though. And you've got six, seven and it's just like, come on guys, get the ball inside. But you're absolutely right. I think we got to give some credit to the South Carolina defense. Obviously they did do a good job of making things difficult. So let's turn our attention to South Carolina because the question is they ended a 43 game win streak and then a 33 game road streak. Are you that concerned? Like, I'm not. I feel like this was just a really great performance by ucla. As you mentioned, they had some three point luck on their side. I want to get your thoughts though. You guys are the experts. Are you guys at all concerned with South Carolina?
- [41:55]
Guest Speaker
I don't think so. I mean again, it's like at this point in the season there's a lot of time to make adjustments and, and move on and move up. And I think that's exactly what South Carolina is going to do. I texted the group text at halftime and was like, well, does Don staley have a 22 point halftime talk within her? She didn't. But I do think what they have is now they have a lot of really good teams. Beach tape. And I think this was a situation where like Sabrina said, like, I think there's some Specific matchup, specificities here that made this, you know, particularly favorable for UCLA and unfavorable for South Carolina. They only face one more 6, 7 plus post this season in TCU unless they face either of those two teams or Kansas State in the tournament. Like, you know, there's certain things here that I think South Carolina can grow from and learn from. And I think, you know, this is one of those moments where, like, there is no one who is in a South Carolina uniform that played significant minutes the last time this team lost. Like, there is some value in learning how to come past this adversity and sort of riding that 43 game win streak. Like, having been around this team, I don't think that was a pressure they felt necessarily. You know, Don Staley kept saying, like, they weren't a part of all 43 of those wins necessarily. And so it's like what they were doing. You know, they sort of operated in a way that was very free. Like they're very carefree team. I think now they can kind of like go back and just grow from this moment. Like a loss can be a really, really good thing when it's at this point in the season.
- [43:25]
Chantelle Jennings
Good point.
- [43:25]
Sabrina Merchant
The thing that worries me about South Carolina is their shooting. It just isn't anywhere near what it was last year. Like, you know, the main transition they're going through is from Camila Cardoso to more of a post by committee approach with Watkins and Fagan and Joyce Edwards all filling in, you know, in that center role, trying to figure out what they were getting from Cardoso. And it is different. Like nobody is going to command the same defensive attention as Camila. Nobody is as good of a passer, frankly, as Camila Cardoso in that spot. You know, going from having 6, 7 to having to guard against 6, 7, it's just not a transition anybody wants to make. But I think it's, it's really the spacing. Because the thing that killed you with South Carolina last year is that you just couldn't even like die by the jump shot because five of their players were making at least 35% of their threes last season. You know, it was just a really, really impressive shooting performance. Like Brie hall and Raven Johnson and you know, you bring in Tessa Johnson and Tahina Pow pow. And even Mylasia Folwe was hitting a lot of threes last year. Like now I think Raven is one of 15 this season on three point attempts. You know, powpow and Tessa Johnson are doing really well. But like, when you Have Ful Wylie and Raven Johnson not shooting well like that, it just makes, makes it easier to scrunch up a little bit. I mean, it just changes what South Carolina is again. Right. Like I think back to the 20, 23 Final Four when like LSU described themselves as South Carolina, but with shooters. Right. Like that's what makes it more interesting is if you have the shooters and theoretically they do, but you know, you're just going to have to see more out of Raven and Brie hall and Malaysia to, you know, make you fear that South Carolina offense in a way that you did the year before.
- [44:50]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. You saw Raven only played 16 minutes in this game. My Laja Fu Wylie only three. Dawn Staley does not play. If you're not executing, you're not taking care of the ball. If you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing on defense, you will be sitting beside her on the bench. Um, and it's why she's got such a, a good program. All right, well, let's look ahead to all four of these teams in terms of who they've got next. Notre Dame, their next ranked opponent. We just mentioned them, tcu, but the next big top five opponent, Texas. I am particularly excited to see this sophomore matchup. Madison Booker, Hannah Hidalgo, also, you know, seeing Olivia Miles and also Rory Harmon. This is a great backcourt, backcourt situation in this matchup. So this will be very interesting. And also another Test that's on December 5th and then on December 12th they take on UConn. So if you're like you're riding high, make sure you bring the energy to those next two games because that's absolutely going to be needed and these are going to be really good non conference test for Notre Dame. Now usc, on the other side of that, their next ranked opponent will come in this form of Oregon. Oregon playing decent. Deja Kelly coming into her new program playing pretty well. I'm not sure. I feel like USC might handedly win that. Just from a defensive perspective. I feel like they've got the size and they've got the capability, but you never know what can happen, especially when they're going to Oregon. You just never know what's going to happen on someone's home court. But then December 21st, USC also faces UConn, and this is going to be a big test because this is another defensive minded team and this is going to be on UConn's property. So between those two teams and those upcoming games, any thoughts on that?
- [46:36]
Sabrina Merchant
So I, I'm really excited about Notre Dame's upcoming schedule. They've got, you know, all of those big, big games that you mentioned and just different kinds of teams, right. Like Texas is a very defensive minded team. TCU has been running really efficient offense. They, you know, obviously have the big Sedona Prince, who is going to be the toughest test for Kate Koval so far, you know, in terms of undersized at best against Sedona Prince in terms of that matchup. So I just like the variety of options on Notre Dame schedule because we're going to see like how they handle, you know, teams with a good backcourt versus front court or just like veterans at UConn. And it really is like a murderous row coming up for the Irish and that's before we even get into ACC play. So, you know, God bless for making this happen. The LA schools like kind of are a little blah, I guess. Like we have the one USC UConn game coming up, but UCLA doesn't really get anybody good until Big Ten play starts, which admittedly is going to be a very good conference. I'm a little bummed we only get each team playing each other once during the course of the season. But I guess that's what happens when you have 18 teams in one league. 18 teams, yes, it's the only way around it. But yeah, you know, South Carolina, Notre Dame, they've been at this for so long, they know how to schedule good opponents over and over again. South Carolina, I think like this week gets Duke in tcu, so it's going to be just like right back on the horse for the Gamecocks. And like, I think before you know it, they're going to have another double digit win streak rolled off. Like, I would fully expect that from this South Carolina team. Like, Don was very calm and like complimentary of UCLA after the game and you know, talking about how good this is for the sport and how impressive UCLA played, but like, this is exactly the kind of kick in the pants you want if you're a team that's just been like riding really high. We talked about that, you know, interview that Mylasia Folweile gave after a game a couple weeks ago where she said, like, couldn't even say we lose together because they'd never lost. Well, now she can say that. She can say that, you know, now you have something to build off of here.
- [48:17]
Chantelle Jennings
It was very surreal to hear that Tahina Powpow had never lost until this past game in a South Carolina jersey. Like, that's, that's Surreal to think, especially considering she's already played one full season with that team. So, yeah, we. I didn't even talk about South Carolina's upcoming games. South Carolina going up against Iowa State on November 28th. Uh, then they got Duke on December 5th, and then TCU on December 8th. So those are their ranked opponents coming up. And then ucla. Yeah, blah is correct. The next ranked opponent they've got is Nebraska. Nebraska just squeaked into the top 25 this week. And then Maryland, but that's when they start their Big Ten play. Chantel, before we wrap, any thoughts on these upcoming games and who you're excited to see?
- [49:00]
Guest Speaker
Yeah, I just feel bad for Iowa State right now. The Cyclones are going to get a South Carolina team that's coming off a loss and going to want to be making a statement. Bill, finally, his group is going to need to come into that game really, really prepared, because I think the statement that South Carolina will try to make against the Cyclones will be significant for sure. I'm really excited to go back to sort of like, you know, make it full circle. Like the ucla, USC games. They'll play twice. They play in February and March. Like, I'm just excited to see where these teams get to by that point. And then they'll sort of have that crosstown rivalry series, and I'm really excited to see that game. One of the top 10 teams we haven't talked about today, mostly because they haven't played anyone super great yet. I'm really excited to see Oklahoma, South Carolina. That's a game that I have circled for sure. That's January 19th, so we still have a little bit of time before that, and we can talk about that coming into it, but when we sort of talk about physical centers and what that can do and how that can change a game, like Regan Beers at Oklahoma, I'm curious to see. You know, she and Lauren Betts are not. Not the same kind of player necessarily. But I'm curious to see sort of what the South Carolina bigs take from the CCLA game and sort of implement moving forward through SEC play specifically for that Oklahoma game.
- [50:12]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, both of them are incredibly dexterous around the basket. They can finish over both shoulders. They've got great footwork.
- [50:19]
Guest Speaker
They're both former Pac 12 centers.
- [50:20]
Chantelle Jennings
That's true. That's very true. And the thing about it is about Reagan Beers is that she's got size. She's wider, too. Like, she. She can plot herself down. And when you think about what Ashlyn Watkins and Sinai Fagan were able to do really well against Lauren Betts. It was about getting around. That's going to be more difficult to do with Reagan Beers, the way she pins back her her defenders. So that will be really interesting. All right, folks, well, this was a gift early in NCAA women's basketball season just to get to see these matchups and I don't know if we're going to get another one back to back like this. Also timed well so that we could actually see both games on two different days like this, but still lots of women's college basketball action to come. Appreciate Sabrina and Chantel as always breaking it down for us. We are so grateful to learn from you and to be able to watch the games a little bit smarter because of you. But for all of you that tuned in, we appreciate your ears. Again, hit that subscribe button on our show, leave us the comments, leave us questions, tell us what you want us to be covering and go, go read the rankings. Sabrina's got those power rankings coming out every Monday and good news is she's usually in tune with what's happening in comparison to what other people are saying about the association. So definitely make sure to tune in there. On behalf Sabrina, on behalf of Chantelle, I'm Zena Kaeda thanking you again for listening and encouraging you to keep listening, keep watching, keep learning, and keep loving the game. That's the only way we're going to keep growing it. All right, hopefully my voice is better, but until next time.
- [51:57]
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Sabrina Merchant
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Sabrina Merchant
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Chantelle Jennings
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Sabrina Merchant
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