← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Liberty prevail in Game 5, Reeve 'cries foul'
01:07:46
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- [00:01]
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Zena Kaeda
There to watch them.
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- [04:39]
Zena Kaeda
For the Athletic. I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Oh, welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. As we close out the WNBA season, folks, I'mma tell you in advance, bear with us, okay? We are running on very little sleep. Last night was a crazy, crazy ending to the 2024 season. We were on site. I've got Ben Pickman, Sabrina Merchant here. We're going to break down that unbelievable game, that unbelievable series. Not look into the future just yet. So if you're here looking for outlooks on the draft or outlooks on every. No, no, no, no. We gotta, we gotta really hone in on what the heck just happened last night because there's a lot of chatter going on. All right, first and foremost, let's get into the building. Barclays Center. After starting at Barclays center two weeks ago, then Going to Minnesota, falling in love with Minneapolis, by the way, and then getting back to Barclays. I did not. I did not know that I'd be going back to Barclays. But of course, game four had a crazy finish to itself, just like every single game in this series. And then we get into Barclays. Sabrina, Ben, getting back to this building. Game five, it's a clean slate. What was the energy like for you guys in the building?
- [06:14]
Ben Pickman
You know, I've been at games at Barclays Center a lot over the last two years, pretty much every home game that the New York Liberty have played, and I don't think I had seen a crowd arrive earlier than I did for Game 5 against the Minnesota Links. Just people started showing up, you know, right when doors opened. And that's not just like normal fans. That is like Spike Lee, who was just on the sidelines schmoozing with whoever wanted to come up to him and take photos. Like an hour, 75 minutes before the game, just people were filling up the stands. And, you know, around the time of the national anthem, like, the arena was really, really full. There were not a lot of white towels over seats that had left had been unclaimed. You could tell pretty much right away as video promotional reels started to air over the PA like that the crowd was going to be really, really energetic. Zena, you were rocking the concourse, so I'd be curious to hear your perspective, too. But, you know, it was an electric crowd. Pregame, during starting lineup introductions, they pulled out all the stops, and then the game started, and all that energy kind of dissipated because the New York Liberty scored 10 points and couldn't make a basket. So, you know, maybe the cheering kind of came in waves, like at the start and pre game, and then dipped a little bit. And then obviously, with the celebration at.
- [07:27]
Zena Kaeda
The very end, I will say I absolutely noticed that about the fans. The first time we were at Barclays Center, I was like, oh, this is such New York energy. Showing up a little bit right at the top of the game or, you know, starting right when it's supposed to ago. Whereas Minnesota was on time, okay. The Lynx fans did not play about getting in their seats, getting in their white T shirts, and getting going. One thing I loved about both arenas, though, and I got hyped. As a former player, I was like, if I'm a part of these hype videos, I'm going crazy. Sabrina, I want you to. I want you to rank them. Hype video links. Hype video in New York. Which one did you like more So.
- [08:09]
Sabrina Merchant
I talked about this on Twitter for a little bit, so apologies if you've already seen this sentiment from me, but prior to game three in Minnesota, the Lynx had reworked their playoff hype video to include big shots from Game one. You know, the Nafeesa Collier fade away and the Courtney Williams four point play that helps to send the game into overtime. And personally I thought it was incurring a little bit of ad vibes to immediately add that to the reel. Thought it was too soon, a little too pointed at the New York Liberty. And you'll notice that when we got back to New York Liberty did not change their video at all. There was no finals specific Sabrina Ionescu Dagger three pointer from Game three that made its way into the video. I thought that was a little bit more of an honoring of the basketball gods in that particular sense. So I will say that that is the one thing that really stood out to me about the videos. I thought the Lynx one, you know, in terms of getting hype, yes, definitely met the mark. But in terms of tempting fate, went.
- [09:13]
Zena Kaeda
A little too far. That's a good analysis. That's a good analysis. I would, I feel like the links one got me like let me put a jersey on asap. Whereas with New York, I was more so tuned into being a fan of them and like celebrating what they're doing. But either way, loved, loved, loved the energy in the building. Ben, as you mentioned, I was doing, I was on the concourse, had some fun content come out with AT&T this time rather than, you know, we played a ton of different games over the course of the finals. Last night we did at the time that we're recording this, we asked fans to say something nice about one another and that content is already live. So definitely go check it out. Had some very thoughtful messages around. Ellie, I feel like that's the, that's the deepest that people could go in their bag to compliment the Liberty. But there were some other really great comments that were said. So definitely go check out that content. But yeah, the energy was unbelievable. People were on time. As you mentioned, there was a group of Lynx fans that were in full uniform like Collier and Sylvia, Foul's uniforms, headbands and all. Love the the Liberty crowns. Also found out that the Liberty sell ice cream and torches. H so smart. I freaking love that. That was so fun. But yeah, and Ben, you kind of alluded to this. Let's, let's talk about this game real quick. I'm just going to talk about the outcome, but I want you guys to kind of lay it out for me. Okay, so final box score in one overtime. New York Liberty take it. 67, 62. Things to note on the Liberty side, three point percentage was 8. 0.7%. Okay, couldn't hit a three, but got the win shot. 21 of 25 free throws. And remember, four of those miss were Brianna Stewart at the end of the game to tie it up. Then she went back to the line, made two in a row. Leadership right there. Big scores out of the New York Liberty. Jonquil Jones, 17 points, six rebounds, one assist. And then the German off the bench. Niara Sabali, 13 points in 17 minutes. Seven rebounds on top of that. Five of seven from the floor. She was absolutely a boost. Let's turn it to the link side. The three point percentage wasn't any better. All right, 15.8%. Three of 19 big stars for the Lynx went off as expected. Nafisa Collier, 22.7 rebounds, 2 assists. She eventually fouled out of the game. Kayla McBride, 21 points, went 1 for 6 from 3, but 7 for 13 from the floor. 5 rebounds, 5 assists total 4 steals as well. Incredibly active on defense. Notable things from a team perspective. Lynx 17 turnovers to the New York Liberty's 12 points in the paint. Lynx had 44 compared to the Liberty, which is crazy considering just how big the Liberty went. We're going to go into that too. And overall, The Lynx at one point in the game had a 12 point lead. And the Liberty just kept clawing back, eventually getting the win, going 32 in the series and bringing New York its very first WNBA championship in 2728 years since its existence in the league. Now we laid out some of the game, we laid out some of the highlights, we've laid out some box score notables, but there's way more to this game. First things first, we got to talk about that last call. Ben, can you walk me through the last play of the game? And what has X Twitter WNBA threads going crazy right now?
- [13:22]
Ben Pickman
I like that we're talking about officiating right at the top. Xena, because I was going to ask when you were on the concourse, did any fans compliment the officiating and the coach's respect for the officiating or did that get omitted from the video you guys were recording?
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Zena Kaeda
That got omitted. Just like when Cheryl Reeve was asking all the accomplishments that Nafeesa Collier got and asked, oh, did that include most free throws? Yeah, it was also admitted.
- [13:47]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, yeah. Would recommend watching Cheryl Reeves press conference back. Lots of zingers, one liners very entertaining. Fifteen minutes, if you want to Absolutely. You know, watch a coach. Yeah, you can find it wherever you get your press conferences on YouTube. But to your question, Xena. So it's the final play basically of. Well, it's not actually the final play of regulation, I should say. Caleb McBride gets a very, very good look that could potentially win the finals. And that's a shot that is going to be lost to history. But Brianna Stewart catches the ball with around six seconds to play in regulation. She starts to get downhill a little bit, and she stops because Alanna Smith, who, you know, played valiantly all series long dealing with an ankle injury and also back injury, stops Briana Stewart in her progress. And we see Stewie kind of rise up for a short jumper, much like we have so many times this season and throughout her whole career. And Stuart definitely, like, initiates some contact or appears like she does. And Stuart and Smith, rather appears to play pretty good defense, is in pretty good guarding position. And now we kind of get into the gray area. Right. And this is where I would employ people to watch the video because it's up for interpretation very much. So what happens? I mean, some people see that Alanna Smith gets ball and then maybe hits Brianna Stewart on one of the arms. Some people see a little bit more arm contact. Some people see a clear foul. Some people see a call that should or should not be made in that moment. Like, was there enough contact to blow the whistle with just over five seconds to go? Like, that's where the gray area really formed. And right after that, Char Reeve uses her coach's challenge, challenges it. And, you know, watching the TV copy back, like, Rebecca Lobo is like, not so fast. Like, maybe this is gonna get reversed because it was one of those calls that very much was up for interpretation. The official who made the announcement after the review said that Atlanta Smith had not established proper guarding position. That was kind of the explanation that was given in not over overturning the foul call. And Brianna Stewart, after what's probably a minute or two of real life time, kind of felt like icing the kicker in football. She stepped up to the line. She made the first, she made the second. And suddenly, you know, it's a tie game with 5.2 seconds to go. It's a play that will be replayed over and over and over again. You know, there were a lot of tightly contested and I think, debated calls in this game five. You know, Roy Gobanion, the official, he is all over the broadcast, kind of making reviews and making calls. Down the stretch of some of these games, or this game in particular. You know, Cheryl Reeve started out her press conference by basically talking about how much of a travesty it was for that call to be made and for how the game was officiated. Sandy Brondello downplayed that, though she kind of acknowledged that the officiating throughout the series was suspect at times. Certainly like a sour taste to a thrilling series. But, you know, I guess you kind of have to live with the result at this point either way because of how it was called and reviewed.
- [16:56]
Zena Kaeda
I want to pause you there before we go a little bit deeper into Cheryl's comments because you make a really good point when you say the word sour. I can't imagine being a New York Liberty player. You've just won a championship. You've brought a championship to your city, one of the first sports championships, period, in several years for New York and then the first for the Liberty. And you've got your entire timeline full of other basketball players, full of other notable figures within the sports and entertainment space, all saying that this game ended poorly, that the officiating took over, that this wasn't what the game deserved, it shouldn't have ended this way. And it's not an immediate congratulations to New York Liberty. It's all of these like, did the game end the way it was supposed to? Did they deserve it? And there's these question marks. Now let's get into what Cheryl Reeve said that adds to the fire of that. And Sabrina, I know you were in the room along with Ben, along with myself, as Cheryl Reeve said, I know that the headline is going to be Reeve cries foul and she says, bring it on. After that she said, this expletive was stolen from us. You asked Sandy Rondella later about what she said, but I want to go into her comments and then Sandy Brandella's comments after that. What was the sentiment that Cheryl Reeve was putting out there?
- [18:27]
Sabrina Merchant
So just to back it up a little bit, eight years ago when the Minnesota Lynx were in the finals against the Los Angeles Sparks in Game five, Neko Gumuke hits a game winner in the final seconds that upon review, is past the 24 second shot clock. It should not have gotten off. And review doesn't exist at this time. The play stands and Minnesota ends up losing Game 5 by one point on its home court, thus losing a championship. And you know, you can look back at earlier in the series, there's an eight second violation that doesn't get counted in game four and that allows Minnesota to Win that game. So, you know, things have a way of evening themselves out at a certain point. But this is sort of the backdrop of what Sheryl Reeve is dealing with when it comes to major calls in a championship game not going Minnesota's favor. So we have the, you know, experience of 2016 forever lingering over Sheryl Reeve's head. And I mean forever. Like, she brings this up all the time. And then she brought it up again in this press conference. Now we get to 20, 24, the way the game was reft. You mentioned the stats earlier. You know, New York gets called for 17 personal fouls. Minnesota has 21. But that results in eight free throws for Minnesota and 25 free throws for New York. Notably, in those, eight free throws for Minnesota are zero for Nafisa Collier, who took 18 field goal attempts in the paint during that game. So to be in the paint that often and never get contact enough to call a foul, just, holistically speaking, a little suspect.
- [20:05]
Zena Kaeda
So teensy bit. Just a teensy bit.
- [20:07]
Sabrina Merchant
We were working with, you know, this history of Sheryl Reeve being aggrieved, this particular experience of watching Nafeesa Collier just get, you know, not to the foul line over and over again while, you know, the New York Liberty are essentially parading there, you know, 25 times over the course of this game. And then you get to the Alanna Smith call, which has been, you know, detailed. Maybe Brianna Stewart travels before the foul even happens. You know, I'm not gonna say maybe Brianna Stewart travels before the foul.
- [20:37]
Zena Kaeda
I was just gonna say, you know what? You guys can't say these things. Brianna Stewart absolutely traveled. Okay, you can watch that clip.
- [20:44]
Sabrina Merchant
She walks and, you know, maybe Atlanta Smith gets ball instead of arm. You know, like, there's a lot of ways of looking at it. As you mentioned, a lot of people were chiming in. You know, Candace Parker said that call probably, you know, would have won Minnesota. The game had to get over. Lebron says, you know, you can't decide a game like that. The players have to decide a game. Damian Lillard basically says the refs understood their assignment in the second half, which you can interpret that however you feel. There's just a lot of uproar about this particular whistle and the fact that it once again puts the Liberty in a position to affect the outcome of a game at the foul line. Just like what happened in game one. If we think back to when, you know, the Liberty are down won on the final possession of regulation in game one, the ball goes off of Brandon Stewart's foot And it seems pretty clear on replay, but nobody saw it in real time. Apparently, all three of the refs miss this and call a jump ball instead. So now New York has the ball again with a chance to tie. Brandon Stewart gets fouled. She makes one or two free throws. That's a game that could have, like, easily been taken away from Minnesota as well. So I think it's just like an accumulation of things that trail Reeve is referring to that just culminates in this one Atlanta Smith foul. And the fact that once again, Minnesota is this close to winning a championship and comes up short and, you know, in the moment, that just overwhelms you. And I think that's what we heard in those glorious 15 minutes of our press conference.
- [22:03]
Zena Kaeda
I appreciate that backdrop and the context, because a lot of people that are new to this space may look at this refereeing thing and say, is, is this new? Like, have they always made these mistakes? Or is this, like, a thing? Just because there's so many eyeballs on the game right now and there's. There's so much excitement. So they're just to keep storylines going. I mean, I've literally read things like, oh, is this rigged? All these different comments coming from people that are kind of new to the space. And I. I love that you kind of broke down, not only in this series, but clearly over the course of history, that. No, no, these things happen. Just like you see in other leagues in college and NBA and in other basketball leagues international. These things happen. Ben, you actually wrote about refereeing in the wnba. Not this year, a year ago. Tell us a little bit for the new fans, like, is this normal? This, like, refereeing or officiating problem that Cheryl Reeve is calling out?
- [23:00]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think it is pretty normal across sports for coaches to complain about referees.
- [23:05]
Zena Kaeda
Absolutely.
- [23:06]
Ben Pickman
What is interesting about the WNBA and the NBA and the NBA G League is kind of how those three leagues and the referee systems work in concert with each other. Right. So you have referees who go from the NBA G League to working WNBA games. You then also have referees who often work WNBA games, and then eventually they move on to the NBA. For a while, there was a perception, and, you know, I think how much you believe this perception is depends on your vantage point that the WNBA was a feeder system for NBA officials. Right. A lot of NBA officials have WNBA experience, and from 2018 to 2022, I believe the NBA, when they would announce new referee assignments, would actually use the word promotes, referring to referees who were moved from the WNBA to the NBA now, when I reported this story out last fall, Monty McCutcheon, who is a former NBA referee himself and the top, you know, the head of refereeing at the NBA, he kind of pushed back on the idea of the WNBA being the feeder and said that when we use the word promotions, it's from moving from the G League to the W.W. or the NBA. But I should also note that after we published the story last year, the word promotes was no longer in their official press release and they now use the word moves from, from one league to the other.
- [24:36]
Zena Kaeda
Interesting.
- [24:37]
Ben Pickman
Two other things I would say coaches routinely submit and coaches and executives routinely submit plays for review to the league office. And you know, they hope that they're flagging plays that they feel like are misafficiated. We don't know publicly the result of those reviews. Referees are also graded on calls that they make and do not make after every game. One other thing that is notable though about kind of the state of officiating that is different than the NBA that I think, you know, would potentially be interesting to see in this moment is that the NBA since 2015 has last two minute reports. And what those are are public assessments of officiating when games are within three points at any moment in the final two minutes of regulation or overtime. And basically the NBA says that those reports are part of the league's ongoing effort to build a greater awareness and understanding of the rules of basketball and kind of serve as a mechanism for fans to like have accountability to fans. The WNBA does not have a last two minute report. And so it would be very interesting to wake up, you know, on Monday morning after game five and see what a last two minute report would bring. You know, how would they rule on the Atlanta Smith foul or no foul? The Brianna Stewart travel or no travel? You know, Jonquil Jones attacking the basket, missing a layup. Like there were a number of calls and non calls that it would just be interesting to see how they were made. And so Monty McCutcheon, when I asked him about the last two minute reports last year, he said that the league is open to adding them, but there hasn't been a lot of need for individual news releases about missed calls. And therefore he said that there hasn't been as big of a clamoring from stakeholders to like put the time and effort into creating last two minute reports. I certainly think post game five there is a clamoring to see a last two minute report as to just an evaluation at how those officials did. You know, it's obviously like a little Bit of a shame that officiating. So much of a conversation point today. The one thing I would kind of push back on, though, Xena, from what you said, is, like, I don't really think the Liberty care. Like, I know you said, like, how much of a shame it is that Liberty players and coaches might have to, like, check their timelines and, like, see people, like, complaining about the officiating. But in truth, like, I don't think they've slept. You know, this podcast is going up Tuesday morning. I don't think they've slept. It doesn't matter when we post it. Like, they've won a championship. I don't think Sandy Rondello cares.
- [27:05]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah.
- [27:06]
Ben Pickman
You know, like, is it unfortunate from a fan perspective? Absolutely. But, like, a win is a win and a ring is a ring, and, like, they're not gonna let anyone take that away from them, whether it's an official, whether it's Showery's comment. So, you know, again, it is a shame that we're talking about this, but, like, I think New York has kind of moved on and is very much content with the result and how it was administered.
- [27:30]
Zena Kaeda
No, I think that's. I think that's a fair statement to make. I think even all the teams that won their. Their championships in the bubble, for example, none of them care about any of the qualifiers that people put around those championships. Right across leagues, people say, nope, I got my championship. I'm good. I don't care what the haters say. I think, though, there is validity in the statement that officiating took over this game. But I think there's validity in saying that officiating took over several moments throughout this series. And I also think it's important to note, in my opinion, yes, officiating absolutely took over this game. In that moment, the Minnesota Links were up by two before Brianna Stewart has the chance to go to the line and tie up the game. They would have won a regulation. It goes to overtime, and then you can go on from there. That being said, even if I think that that call is wrong and that end of regulation went in a different direction than it could have had that call not been made. There is also something to be said about the way that the Minnesota Links played. There's something to be said about the way they did not take advantage of their offensive opportunities in overtime. Like, literally. Let's. Let's talk about that overtime links breakdown. Because I do want to talk about this game overall, but for those that are like, oh, they could have won an egg relation it's like, true. They could have won had that call not been made. So I do believe that feels like it's stolen. But now you have an opportunity for five minutes to get yourself your championship. And this was the list of the possessions. Courtney Williams missed the jumper. And next possession, Courtney Williams missed the layup. Next possession, Kayla McBride turns the ball over. Next possession, the team violates the shot clock.
- [29:20]
Ben Pickman
I'm noticing a trend, Xena, like, next.
- [29:23]
Zena Kaeda
Possession, Heideman turnover, then another Heideman turnover, then another Williams turnover, then a Carlton miss jumper and then a Carlton turnover. They did not execute. And Nafisa Collier said this in the post game press conference, that at the end of the day, in overtime and throughout the game, the Lynx did not execute. And that's why I feel that even though that moment, yes, was stolen from them and they had done a lot of work to even be in that position, to still have the lead at the end of that, you know, at the. Towards the end of regulation, there were several things that the Lynx did not do in overtime when the moment was in front of them to seize the championship, that they stole it from themselves in a way. I want to talk about this game because it was so different than all the other four. First, the lineups for New York. Ben, you. I think I saw it first from you. The lineups that New York had never played, they were the definition of go big or go home break down. Of like, what did Sandy Brondello do to switch up her look for the New York Liberty this game?
- [30:33]
Ben Pickman
I mean, at halftime she said that she kind of told Niari Sabali to basically be ready to come in in the third quarter. And midway through the third quarter, Niar Sabali, the reserve center, and I want to say number six pick in the 2022, number five pick, rather pick in the 2022 WNBA Draft, checked in and she was on the court alongside Brianna Stewart and John Jones and Sabrina Enescu and Leonie Fevich. And I was sitting next to Sabrina and we were like, huh? Have we ever seen this lineup before? And so we started to dig into wnba stats.com and we pulled up some lineup data and what do we find? Zena? We found that no, this lineup had never played before in a game for New York this regular season or the postseason. Sabrina, how did you describe the lineup?
- [31:20]
Sabrina Merchant
The jumbo lineup.
- [31:21]
Ben Pickman
The jumbo lineup.
- [31:22]
Sabrina Merchant
I thought it was really interesting because Sandy Brandello said that she had been thinking about it all day, that, you know, the series had just been so grueling. And so fatiguing. And she thought that their defense and their rim protection was really gonna need to be on another level in game five. And the idea of playing three bigs together had occurred to her earlier in the day. And then, you know, based on the way the first half went, when, you know, nothing was really going right for New York, that it seemed like the third quarter was the right time to do it. But, God, what a decision to just throw out a lineup you've never used ever during the regular season during Game 5. And it's so funny, because we talk to these teams and players, you know, incessantly over the course of the series, and by the time you get to game three and game four, it's like, oh, we know everything about the other team. There are no secrets left. Right? That's what Sheryl Reef said. There are no secrets left. We've scouted them to death. We know everything about the other team. And lo and behold, we get this new wrinkle from the Liberty that no one has tried all season. And for that to essentially turn Game five is just a fascinating way for that game to have gone.
- [32:21]
Ben Pickman
I mean, Sabrina, you described it to me as break in case of emergency. Like, that's what it was, right? New York had no offensive rhythm. They were terrible in the first half, could not buy a basket from two or from three and still were only down seven at the break. And suddenly, Nyara Sable checks in, and she plays with a ton of energy every time she's on the floor. Her offensive game, you know, she. She is a good rim runner and a very good athlete, but, like, she is still raw offensively. Like, she doesn't really, like, you know, have a post game. Sometimes she finishes layup. Sometimes it is like she'll miss bunnies like she did actually in game four at a costly moment. Like, you don't always 100% know what you're getting. She did not play in the Las Vegas series. I mean, Las Vegas basically played her off the floor in the semis. And so, you know, yeah, she had played, I want to say, 35 minutes in games one through four combined leading into game five. But, like, if you had Niara Sabley scoring nine points in the third quarter as the highest score on any team in that period, like, please give me a phone call, shoot me a text, a DM after this podcast, because I'd like to know what other bets that I should be placing or what other lottery tickets I need to be buying, because, like, I don't think anyone could have Predicted that, like, absolutely not.
- [33:39]
Sabrina Merchant
We talked about the defense, how critical she was, you know, just in terms of protecting the paint. But Ben and I, like, when we were watching that game in the first half, how many times did you look at a Liberty procession and think they're just not breaking the paint, they're just passing the ball around the perimeter, you know, hot potatoing basically to one another. And the thing that Niara Sabli does that Cindy Brandella mentioned is she's always on her front foot attacking the rim. Like, she's always aggressive to the basket. Whether that's as a roller out of a pick and roll or just diving on a rim run or something like that, she is making a move towards the basket. And for a team that just, like, seemed incapable of getting the ball beyond the nail, for Niara Sable to at least get into the paint, even if some of the drives were a little bit chaotic, you know, she had a couple offensive fouls in there. It just changes up the rhythm of what the Liberty were trying to do. And again, it's just really interesting to see this happen after, you know, 165 minutes of basketball that had basically gone a certain way to just throw that out. Like Ben said, break glass in case of emergency, stylistic shift. And that's what we saw on Sunday night.
- [34:35]
Zena Kaeda
That was the thing that I appreciated about the New York Liberty. Not only were they on a different level defensively, and I mean, they were locked in. Were there fouls there? In my opinion, yes, absolutely. They were physical as hell, but you have to play that way until the referees call it. You ha. Like, this is do or die. And I absolutely think that they were doing that on defensive end. But the. This offensive adjustment. Offensive. I shouldn't say offensive. It was offensive to the links, but this offensive adjustment was brilliant. And I agree with you. I love that Brandello says this. There were some chaotic takes by Niara Sabali to the basket, but every time she attacked the basket, however strong, how hard she was dribbling, people had to gravitate to her. It forced movement defensively for the links. And also Ben, as you know, listed this out, could not buy a bucket. For context, folks, going into the half, first of all, the halftime score looked like a first quarter score. Minnesota 34, New York Liberty 27, and the New York Liberty, these were their shooting stats. 10 of 35 from the floor, a whopping just under 29% from the floor, and 0 of 9. They were 0 of 8 teen until I think it was Sabrina Unescu who hit their very first three, one of 19 is what they became. They could not hit a three to save their lives. And so I just thought that this was a genius move by Sandy Brandello to do this. Now, let's. Let's talk about Sabrina and let's talk about Stewie because they had some uncharacteristic games offensively, but they did a lot of other things to be able to impact winning. I'll go either way. Ben. Sabrina, I have to get your thoughts on their performance and what was it that made it so hard for them to be able to do their thing? What we know them to be in these stars for the liberty.
- [36:42]
Sabrina Merchant
I think for the majority of this series, we have seen Minnesota do a really good job of locking in on Sabrina Unescu and Briana Stewart. And I should stop using the present tense. We saw Minnesota do a really good job of locking in on Sabrina Nesk and Brianna Stewart. They had Kayla McBride as the primary defender on Sabrina, and McBride is just non stop movement, defensive. She's chasing her off the ball. She's denying her. You know, we saw so much point Briana Stewart, because Sabrina simply couldn't bring the ball up the court under that kind of pressure. You know, she's meeting her off of screens, bodying her on her way to the basket. Like, McBride was just in Sabrina's airspace for the entirety of the series, which is why you could tell it hurt her so much that, you know, Sabrina gets that infinitesimal bit of space with a step back at the end of game three to win that game in Minnesota. But, like, this was not new to game five. This was something that Kayla McBride had been doing over the entirety of the series. Sabrina's shooting splits were absolutely worse in game five. Like her. Her drives. I mean, I used the word chaotic with Niara Sable. I think that is also an apt descriptor of some of Sabrina's takes to the basket. They were horrific. But I think that defensive pressure is not something that we were surprised by in any sense. And the same thing with Brianna Stewart. Nafisa Collier had just been again, in her grill the entirety of the series. You could not tell really that Stewie was a couple inches taller, longer wingspan than Nafisa because Collier just marked her, you know, step by step, made all of her shots a little rushed. You know, was in her airspace when she was trying to go up for those little short shots in the paint. I mean, this was just a masterclass in defensive play by Nafisa Collier. I. I can't even stress it Enough. Like the fact that she got so many blocks on Stewie, who. We've talked about her measurements, right? The 6, 4 height, the 7:1 wingspan, the fact that she, like, has to look for special sleeves when she's buying clothes because of how long her arms are. If he's. Collier's wingspan is six foot six. Like, it's good, but it's not what Stewie's dealing with. And the fact that, you know, she was able to have that kind of effect on Branda Stewart's jumpers, on her shots in the paint. Again, like, this was something we saw over the course of all five games. This was not new to game five. The numbers just collectively looked terrible for New York. But this was the defensive game plan that Minnesota put in place. They're going to stop Saab at the point of attack. They're going to stop Stewie. They're going to make everybody else beat them. And what you saw was Jonquil Jones, Niara Savoli, a little bit of Kayla Thornton, Leo Fibich, right? Like, it was the others. I wouldn't say the others because Jonquil Jones, also a former MVP in this league, but it was the third star that, you know, they just couldn't specifically game plan for because I thought Alana Smith did a really good job one on one, but on those roles, it was just hard to contain JJ all of the time. You know, they made their decision. We're gonna take away these two. We're gonna figure out if the others can beat us. And J.J. did it, right. And that's why we're looking at Jonquil Jones, finals mvp.
- [39:25]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah. New York did an impeccable job of just constantly running Link's guards off of screens. It was just like, you get off of one and you're running into another. And that's why I feel like by the time you got to a screen where Jonquil was involved and she's rolling into the basket, you're so out of position and so mismatched at that point that you end up with a Bridget Carlton or someone that is significantly undersized on Jonquil Jones or Natisha Heideman trying to be in help side defense, coming over and swatting at something that, you know, it's John Claude Jones, she's going up. Natisha Heideman's not having an impact on that play, but it was impressive to be able to see Brianna Stewart say, all right, I might be 2 of 9 at halftime and not much better by the third quarter. She was 3 of 12 from the floor. But at that point, she had 14 rebounds by the end of the third quarter, 14 rebounds. What things stood out to you in terms of how Stewie helped shepherd the Liberty to this win?
- [40:30]
Ben Pickman
Just that she wouldn't let her offensive production and specifically how she was shooting dictate the rest of her game. I think that is a sign of growth. It's a sign of leadership. I think it's a sign of, like, her kind of will and approach entering Game five that, you know, it didn't matter to her whether she was gonna score 30 points or score, you know, just over 10 like she did. She was going to find ways to make winning plays. And that took the form of 15 rebounds. It took the form of four assists. The three blocks she had, you know, one late in the game on a Tisha Heidman, that was a notable rejection. She was a good screener, and she obviously, like, went to the free throw line and tied the game. And she did it in all 45 minutes like she was the lone player who went the distance. Nafisa Collier would have, but she fouled out late in overtime. But Brianna Stewart otherwise was, you know, did it all. You know, Zena, if I can empty the notebook real quick on Brianna Stewart, so, you know. The New York Liberty struggled heading into the postseason. They lost games to the Los Angeles Sparks, they lost to the Minnesota Links, and they struggled against the Las Vegas Aces without Asia Wilson. And then on the final day of the regular season, they lost at home to the Atlanta Dream. It was a game that was meaningless for the New York Liberty. They had already locked up the number one seed, but they played their starters more than the first half. Stewie played the whole first half, and they still lost by double digits to Atlanta. And afterwards, Stewie was really frustrated. She believed that New York had let, you know, their standards slip, that they were not playing up to the level that they should have. And so following the defeat, she called a team meeting that night. Stewie described it to me as the type of meeting where you either get on board or you get out. Some players on the Liberty had already gone back home to their apartments when she brought everyone back together. It was around 10pm at night when everyone regathered in the locker room. And Stewie kind of started the meeting by acknowledging that, like, she had never called a meeting like this before, that in Seattle, it was the kind of meeting that Sue Bird would always lead. But this was kind of her moment, and she kind of began it by holding herself accountable as both a leader and a player. She was pretty candid with the group. And, you know, I have this quote in the big story that I wrote for Monday morning, but she said this was just effing BS that we've gotten to this point. And she said that we talk all about culture and wanting to do the right things and pushing each other, and it's all fluff. Unless we're going to get into the nitty gritty and address things, then we're never going to get better. And it was the kind of tone that multiple players told me that they had never seen Stewie have before. It was the kind of edge that we saw in Game three when she was like, we are not effing losing this game. She was direct with teammates, you know, calling people out about what they needed to do better as well. And eventually, every single person spoke, players and coaches. I think some staffers might have spoken, too. But it all started with Stewie. The meeting was 90 minutes. It was very raw. One player told me it was long overdue. But it was the kind of meeting that, like, forged real connection and vulnerability in the Liberty. Stewie kind of told me that, like, how we were going. This is a quote, wasn't going to win us a championship. The goal that we all want wasn't going to be accomplished unless these things were addressed. It was the best thing that could have happened to us as a team, because we need that energy, we need that commitment regardless. And that trust is something that has really shown. So that's kind of a moment, like, of Stewie stepping up in a leader in a way that she hadn't before. It speaks to her evolution there, her authenticity, her finding times and moments to lead, you know, players kind of on the Liberty, and coaches, too, look back and say, like, that is a moment when she kind of grew up, as one person told me, and it kind of really became her team from a vocal standpoint. So that was kind of her approach heading into the postseason. And I think we really saw that in Game five when, you know, everything was pushed to the limit as far as it could go.
- [44:23]
Zena Kaeda
And when was this meeting held? You said, after which game?
- [44:26]
Ben Pickman
After game 40 of the regular season. So New York had played Atlanta at home. That's great. The game had no stakes, and heading into the postseason, she was like, we're not in the right place.
- [44:37]
Zena Kaeda
Oh, my gosh. Wow. That's awesome.
- [44:39]
Ben Pickman
That is kind of what happened from there.
- [44:40]
Zena Kaeda
I'll tell you what, as a person that has had those type of meetings, that have had those kind of come to Jesus Moments like, do y'all really want this? Do you even care? You know, calling out your teammates, that is the best way to kind of fortify the bond between you guys on the floor. Do I trust you to call me out to hold me accountable? Do I trust you to be someone that call me out and then go do your part out on the court as well? It is also a really telling anecdote in terms of a shift you've seen in the New York Liberty this year. The big narrative around them being, oh, are they connected as a team? Remember, that was, like, the big thing that people said after they lost in the finals last year, of course, alluding to Kelsey Plum's comments following the finals of their connectedness as a team. And now you're seeing those type of hard conversations happening within the New York Liberty chambers. Like, kudos to Breonna Stewart for being able to have that conversation and for the New York Liberty to respond in that way. And it's also a really good example to set for a young leader in Sabrina Ionescu, that this is her first championship and understanding what she needs to do to be able to lead another team to it.
- [45:51]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. And I think, like, that was a moment for them in which they felt the trust and connection really shine through after that loss. And it was a much needed kind of moment that sparked, changed, you know, forced people to reevaluate and kind of recharted the path that New York was on. And I think coming out of that meeting, like, they almost could live with the results. Like, they knew that they were going to give everything they had and see where the chips fell. And that was something else that Stewie talked about after game five. Right. That she felt like after game four of last year's finals against the Aces that she and the team still had more left in the tank, more to give. And so she kind of entered game five with the approach like, I'm going to empty the tank and whatever happens, happens. And I think we saw that obviously, with her playing 45 minutes in that overtime, grinding game.
- [46:41]
Zena Kaeda
Wow, I love that story. Thank you for sharing that. That's really cool. Well, before we get into what this means for New York in terms of the historical aspect, because there's a lot there. I want to talk about the Minnesota Link side of the ball, because, I mean, backing it up from the start of this season, the Minnesota Lynx were not expected to be here. Sabrina. They weren't expected to be here. I think a lot of people kind of overlooked them, especially when you think about Nafisa Collier as their star. It just wasn't. It wasn't in the main conversations. This was recently brought up as they were making their way to the finals. Fans talking about, you know, why aren't the links talked enough about? Like, are they a boring team? Is there, you know, are there not narratives there that we can chase, like what. What's going on there? And then you find them in the finals and not only making for one of the most competitive finals there's ever been, but also having stars. I think one of the ones that definitely, you know, we're definitely going to talk about Nafisa in a second, but Courtney Williams was someone that kind of popped out as a star within this links team and she was another player alongside Sabrina, alongside Stewie on the opposite side of the ball for the, for the links that really struggled in this game. And when I was on the concourse talking to people, Courtney Williams is one of the people that was complimented the most about being a dog and just, you know, being a really good ball handler and just being scary with it. And then she just struggles throughout this game. She ended up finishing the game 2 of 14 from the floor, O of 2 from 3 for 4 points, minus 10, the lowest plus minus on the Lynx team. What was it about the way that New York adjusted to her ball handling, her floor presence, her attack and pull up game that made her just struggle throughout game five?
- [48:37]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, I thought Courtney Williams got a lot of the same looks in game five that she had been getting at other points in the series. There were a lot of mid range jumpers that seemed very much within her wheelhouse and that just weren't going in. You know, the Liberty did put a lot of length on Courtney Williams. You know, I think they started the series with Sabrina Unescu in that matchup and then moved to Leonie Fiebich taking it at times. The Najelaney guarded her a lot, so just bigger, longer defenders who could, you know, get in Courtney Williams eye line. I thought, you know, her passing was just really the problem in game five. Just making rush decisions, you know, getting into the paint without a real plan of attack and just sort of throwing the ball away. There was, you know, one turnover that she committed on a kick out pass to Atlanta Smith late in the game. That just what was LAN supposed to do in terms of trying to catch it? There was just no opportunity. So, you know, as a scorer, I think, you know, this seems reductive, but it was kind of a make or miss situation. There was a lot of shots That I thought Courtney Williams had a chance to make in her standard little elbow mid range pocket that just weren't going in. But as a lead guard, in terms of directing the offense for Minnesota, which, you know, is a different responsibility than the point guard and some other offenses, she just wasn't consistent enough in her decision making. And I think that's really where she let Minnesota down in that particular game.
- [49:59]
Zena Kaeda
It did seem like she was rattled in Game 5 in a way that you didn't see earlier in the series. Mistakes that you're not, you're not used to her making. Um, I was also surprised how many times I looked up and through switches, right through the actions of the Lynx and New York doing whatever they can to just stay in front of them, that I would look up and Jonquil Jones would be in front of Courtney Williams. Like that was crazy. Just how, particularly when that big lineup was out there, how, how much of a big body was in front of a Courtney Williams. But with Courtney Williams not playing to her usual ability and Bridget Carlton not being able to buy a three, she was able to get one of three from the three point line, one of six overall finishes with three points. You've got three starters for the Minnesota Links, six points. And under Nafeesa Collier, Kayla McBride did their best to carry this team to the win. And I think that it was very, it was very apt that they were the two sitting beside Cheryl Reeve in the, in the post game press conference. And you could just see the heartbreak on their faces. Looking at the Lynx's future, knowing there's, there's Collier McBride, you guys maybe knowing a little bit more about what lays ahead in their contracts, this team being put together, you know, is there a world in which led by Collier, led by McBride, the Lynx can find their way back to a championship contending team?
- [51:29]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So everybody on the Minnesota Links in their rotation is currently under contract for next season other than Natisha Heideman. And Natisha Heideman has spoken just glowingly about her time in Minnesota, the relationship that she's had with Lindsey Whelan, the way that, you know, that partnership with Courtney Williams has worked out for her after previously being teammates in Connecticut. So, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if she ended up re signing with Minnesota. There is the expansion draft to consider, which, you know, someone, the Golden State will be able to pick someone outside of the top six on Minnesota. And when you have a team as deep as the Minnesota Links, they could probably get somebody good like you could imagine a Diamond Miller you know, who was the number two pick just two years ago in the 2023 draft, being unprotected because she wasn't, you know, an immediate fit in the style of play that Minnesota used this season. You know, Chet Gzandalasini was an excellent bench player for the Links, and maybe. Maybe she gets taken. Maybe Alyssa Pele gets taken. You know, maybe, you know, there's a lot of options. The only other restricted free agent is Maisha Hines Allen. And I think, you know, just based on the way the final series went, like, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if the Links were to lose her, especially if Dorca Juhas comes back and Jessica shepherd, who was suspended this season for overseas commitments, comes back as well. Like, that's another big. That Minnesota could add to their rotation. So, I mean, everything's in play. Like, they're all. They're all coming back, the band's back together, you know, and you would imagine another year of continuity reps would just make them even more comfortable in this system.
- [53:00]
Ben Pickman
This isn't a comment on the Links ability to repeat as title contenders, but it's just a moment that I think needs to be mentioned, and it relates to Natisha Heidman. So, you know, I figured I'd bring it up is she was really the only player that I spotted on the Links who kind of came back out to the court to watch the New York Liberty celebrate. She was kind of sitting on the bench for. As the celebration on court broke out. And there was a really cool moment, actually, where Jason Sudeikis actually walked over to Natisha Heideman and like, dapped her up and basically said, like, like, nice job. Like, great effort out there. And you could see, like, she was really appreciative of that gesture. Obviously not something he had to do. He could have just gone about his celebration with all the Liberty players and coaches and fans who were on the court. But I thought that was a pretty cool moment for Sudeikis to greet Heideman, who was out there with, you know, team security or another team staff or just kind of sinking, you know, letting the moment sink in. Just wanted to kind of throw that out as we're just, you know, dropping things in from. From Game five.
- [54:01]
Zena Kaeda
No, I love it. The sights and sounds. This is the kind of stuff you get when you're in the building. You're on the floor, you're in the moment. I love that about NAR Heideman. You think about this. I feel like this happens in all sports, particularly in college football, after, you know, the college football championship bowls, etc. The opposing team, whoever lost their quarterback, usually goes out to the field and just looks at the field, looks at the confetti, picks it up, etc. Sits on the bench and soaks it in. And there's always this like villain story. I'm coming back, I'm coming back. I'm gonna be here next year. I want it next year. And a lot of times it can happen. It's pretty cool when that happens. And I see this happening. For Nafeesa Collier, a person that was in the mix, but not notably in the mix for the MVP conversation all year long it was Asia Wilson, Brianna Stewart, Asia Wilson, Brianna Stewart, Nafisa Collier, like always whispered within that mix. And if there's anyone that didn't know enough about Nafisa Collier's game, people saw it this series, it was absolutely on display. Her variety of impacting the game, how tough of a matchup she is, I mean a matchup nightmare. Really cool to see. And someone mentioned this on my, on my, one of my tweets that Asia Wilson, Brianna Stewart and Afisa Collier, all MVP caliber, all two way players. And Nafisa Collier, now even Cheryl Reeve mentioned this in the post game presser. She's going to get the recognition she deserves. People are not going to forget about her next year. And Ben, Sabrina, I'd love to hear about, like what does this series mean for Nafisa's career moving forward and the legacy she's starting to make within this space of the W. Well, with all.
- [55:53]
Sabrina Merchant
Due respect to Nafeesa Collier, before this season she had never won a playoff series. So when you're talking about her in the context of Brianna Stewart and Asia Wilson, who are both two time champions entering 2024, it's just a different caliber of star when you're measuring postseason success. And I do think that when you are wanting to be mentioned in that same level as the greatest players in the game, there has to be a level of postseason success, success that goes along with it. And I understand that you don't get to choose your team context or you know, who goes along with you on those rides. But like, you just, you gotta win in October. That's fair to make yourself a part of these conversations. And now that Nafisa Collier has been in the playoffs and has been to the finals, you know, won two playoff series, made it to two game fives, like this is the kind of exposure that she is going to need to, you know, become a Part of, like, is it a three person conversation for best player in the world? And, you know, we started to see that in the Olympics when she was, you know, on those closing lineups with Brianna Stewart and Asia Wilson in that gold medal game, super important defensively and with her rebounding against France. So I do think that, like, these elements of her being a starter on the gold medal team, being in the postseason, having a deep run, like, this is, this is what she needed to get in the conversation. I don't think it's overdue. I think this is the natural progression you have to take when you want to become a superstar.
- [57:14]
Ben Pickman
And yet, like, there are no guarantees, right? Like, two teams make the finals every year, one wins the championship. We just name three players on three different teams. You could throw the Connecticut sun, who obviously lost in the semis in five games, like the Indiana Fever, they're coming. You could go down the list. Like, there are a number of other teams who had down years who I think expect to be better and are going to try and be top four seeds next year. Teams like Dallas on a rebound, Atlanta, Phoenix, I think has higher expectations. Seattle, like in year two of that, that group, like all these teams are coming. And across sports, what any executive or coach or player will tell you is just because you reach the mountain, summit in a finals, you don't start back at the summit next year. Like, you start back at the bottom of the mountain. Like, you have to climb all the way back up. And because of the talent on your roster, because of your experience, that climb might be a little easier. You might be able to get there a little bit faster. You might know the path, so to speak, if we're going down this analogy. But like, you got to do all the work. Like, you're starting from the bottom again. You're not starting from number two. And I know like Sabrina on the set right now, you can read her way too early power rankings. And yes, we should acknowledge they are way too early. And there's a full off season and plenty of coaching moves that need to be made that will shake out and I'm sure, you know, mix things up before basketball resumes next May. But like, yeah, we, we put the links at number two in those rankings. But like, who's to say they're going to be number two in mid May? And who's to say they're going to be number two in June, first two weeks into the season? Like, you know, the reality is that it's really hard, that the league is really talented and you know, Minnesota could definitely be back to this standpoint, but that's part of the sting is like, there are no guarantees that you get back here. And I think for a lot of people, you know, you look at the Minnesota team and it's like so much of their strength was because of their, like, their collective togetherness. And so, you know, I think some people on the outside are probably wondering, can they replicate that to the same degree a season later?
- [59:17]
Zena Kaeda
Absolutely. This, that's the biggest question I think I have is whenever you have a team that feels like it's got a special sauce. You heard Kayla McBride talk about this in the post game press conference of. Just like, they. They wanted this for each other so badly. Sheryl Reeves said they never had someone, I think she said, that had the. The me disease. The disease of me. Is that correct? Did y'all hear that?
- [59:43]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. Disease of me.
- [59:45]
Zena Kaeda
Disease of me. Basically never putting themselves before the game, before their teammates, before the goal. And it's true. It's such a unique, very small, like, splash of magic in a small amount of moment, like a small moment that you don't know if you're gonna be able to replicate that next year with the same level of talent and degree. That's why going back to back is difficult. And even getting to that position is difficult.
- [60:12]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I was gonna say, like, you know, I think that's the big question for New York entering next year. Like, they had talked all season long about the scar of losing to the Las Vegas Aces. Game four was a year to the day from game four of 2023. Both of them losses. Like, you know, what is the motivation next year for them to be as gritty, be as hungry? You know, maybe it is, you know, high level athletes find motivation everywhere. Maybe it is being fueled by the people who say, well, the refs gifted them the championship, right? Maybe it is players who are upset with their role saying, like, I should have played more. Maybe it's Sabrina and E saying, I shot 1 of 19 in a closeout, winner take all game. Like, I have a lot of work left to do. Brianna Stewart struggling in Games 4 and 5 saying, I have a lot of work left to do. There's another level I can still get to. You know, those might be some of the motivating factors, but I think, like, that now becomes the challenge for the New York Liberty. Becky Hammond talked about it. After Las Vegas was eliminated. They didn't have exit interviews, they had exit celebrations. Right? Exit parties, right? Like, that's what New York is going to do, and they should do over the next week, because winning a WNBA championship is really hard. Not that Sabrina and I know, but that's what everyone says. But it's really, really hard, right? And so, like, just, like, there are no guarantees for Minnesota to get back there. There are no guarantees for New York. And so now the question is, like, what is the motivation to try and do it again? You know, maybe it's trying to match the Las Vegas Aces and have a recent two beat. You know, I think that's the question that I have and that so many people ask heading into next year. What will be the edge for. For this team?
- [61:50]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, it's a question that we have. It's also the question that John Cole Jones brought up to us during the series. She specifically said that she didn't think New York would be back here in the finals in the position to win a championship. Had they won in 2023, she thinks that would have led to a sense of complacency. So, I mean, I'm not going to, like, necessarily extrapolate that forward saying they're going to have complacency going forward to 2025, but it is interesting to think that even she realizes that they needed the fuel of 2023 to get to a title in 2024. And like Ben was saying, what becomes that fuel the next year? Like, especially when you are so openly acknowledging that this is what you needed to get to this point, I'm telling.
- [62:29]
Zena Kaeda
You, those villain stories are real. And as you guys were talking, I realized the term I was trying to get was flash in the pan. Right? Sometimes the chemistry of a team, the camaraderie of a team, all of that can be a flash in the pan. In the long scheme of, you know, multiple WNBA seasons that you just hit the right marker and it works. When you've got a team that's got vengeance in their heart and retribution in their heart, like the New York Liberty had, that gives you a great flash in the plan to be able to say, hey, let's do it. But in my opinion, you know, Ben, I appreciate you sharing that story about Stewie's meeting. If you've got a team that has camaraderie, feels accountable to each other, and feels connected in that way, hopefully you can see what the Aces did be replicated in the New York Liberty, because the Aces didn't have that kind of. I don't know. Actually, I'll say this. I didn't feel like the Aces had this, but the Aces feel like they Have a villain story and they operate off of that. And they, you know, that's what they say. Everyone has something to say. Everyone had something to say. But I feel like the Aces are very focused on each other and the New York Liberties are very, also very focused on each other. And maybe that will be enough to galvanize them to another title contention position for next season now that they haven't won and they, now they don't have that 2023 kind of retribution in their, their soul to get back. Very, very interesting stuff. Before we go and close this out, this has been a wonderful conversation. I'm happy. We got to be able to talk about the foul. We got to talk about the night, we got to talk about the, the, the play on both sides. We got to talk about this series. I want to talk about what this means for New York. You know, Ben, particularly you, you are from New York. You're in this space, you're around this team. Give me a little bit of sentimental. Give me a little bit of what Holly Row would sprinkle in the end of the game.
- [64:25]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I don't know if I can do like the sentimental Holly Rose, you know, especially running on, I don't know, three hours of sleep.
- [64:31]
Zena Kaeda
Right. When did you guys get back in last night?
- [64:33]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, it was like three, four, five o'clock in the morning.
- [64:37]
Zena Kaeda
You just added like three hours, by the way, but. Huh. Go ahead.
- [64:40]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, not a lot of sleep last night on Sunday night. I mean, look, this is the first major professional basketball championship in New York City in 40 plus years. You know, the Knicks haven't won one since the early 70s. The Nets won a title when they were in the ABA in the mid-70s. Like, this is what we're talking about here. The New York Liberty. 28 years of existence and never won a title before. 05 in their five prior finals appearances. Like, that's what it meant. And you saw Stewie, you saw Courtney Vandersloot, Sabrina Inescu. So many people on the roster talked about what it meant. And this is a franchise that, you know, in 2019, they were still playing in Westchester county center in front of 2,000 people when Joe and Clara Wu Tsai bought the team from James Dolan. Like, New York was playing in Westchester. They would commute up, like on game days, they would rent day hotels in Westchester. That would be where players would rest. Like they had just one of the craziest routines. I mean, it's an arena that like, had a lot of stairs and players just talk about like climbing the Staircases. And that being a workout in and of itself before you even played the game. Like Clara Wuzai, she told me, like, when they bought the Liberty, they viewed it as a distressed asset, but they also saw it as a fan base and a franchise that they could re energize and rejuvenate. And they did. And to kind of bring the conversation full circle like that, I think is one of the scenes that so many players will remember is just like the fans, the environment, the towels waving, the Ellie Stomp, all of it. And all kind of manifested itself on Sunday night as they won Game five. And, you know, it will be really cool, like, they're going to celebrate the title in both Manhattan and Brooklyn. There's going to be a parade that's already been announced. Eric Adams, the mayor of New York City, announced it on Monday. It'll be on Thursday, starting at 10:00. Then they're going to go to a city hall in Manhattan. Unclear what the Brooklyn celebration will be, but, like, they're going to try and bridge different neighborhoods and boroughs together and embrace different kinds of people in different areas. And, you know, I think that is definitely meaningful to the players. It's meaningful to the fans. And one of the things that was another refrain that we heard a lot through Game five is like, you're only first once. Like, you are now the first. You are part of the team that won the first ever title in New York Liberty history. And that is something that, like, no one can take away and that they will forever be the first. And that is meaningful to so many people. A part of that organization.
- [67:01]
Zena Kaeda
That is beautiful. Are you going to the parade?
- [67:04]
Ben Pickman
I will be at the parade. Yes.
- [67:05]
Zena Kaeda
Yes. I will not expect you to be working. I hope you have the most amazing time while you're at the parade.
- [67:11]
Ben Pickman
I will be working the parade, Zena. So whether you're expecting it or not, I can confirm that.
- [67:15]
Zena Kaeda
All right, well, sneak a little bit of fun in there because that's gonna be amazing. I could just keep hearing Brianna Stewart saying that's all she was saying in the post game press conference as she was drinking her Moet. All right. I'm just so grateful for this WNBA Finals. I'm so happy that we were able to be a part of it. Of course, this was my first WNBA Finals. I'm sure, you know, Sabrina and Ben, you guys have covered so many, but this was a special one. This one felt like an energy shifted around the W. So many, so many people with their eyeballs on it. Highest viewership Numbers highest tickets sold. I mean, making records both at Target center and Barclays center for tickets sold to a, a playoffs game and or finals game. It's just really, really special to have been a part about, of this whole series. I was gonna ask us like, if he had a favorite moment, but I can't even think of a favorite moment. I'm like, I just loved it all. I thought it was so fun for every single game to be decided within the last minutes of the game. Like minute or two minutes of the game. Some of them seconds of the game. That was probably my favorite part. Ben, Sabrina, thoughts on the series.
- [68:27]
Ben Pickman
An all time great series. My favorite moment was just spending all this time with all of you guys. I mean, it was the podcast, it was the time in person dinners. You know, we had so much fun this, this finals. Xena, did you have a more, a more of a favorite moment than that?
- [68:41]
Zena Kaeda
I mean, no, I. I feel like that's what I'm saying. I got to see you guys. I got to be in the arena. I got to see fans. Oh, guys, I think that's actually my favorite part. Thank you, Ben. My favorite part by far, the amount of people that came up to me to say they love our pod. That was really freaking cool. People asking me like, where's Ben? Where's Sabrina? Like, Ben, Sabrina. People know us. Somebody recognized my voice. I was sitting in a coffee shop. I wish I would've gotten their name. I was sitting in a coffee shop talking to my mom. I don't even remember about what. And someone goes, are you Xena? And I was like, yes. She's like, I recognize your voice. I was like, what? Like, this is crazy. People listen to us. They think what we're saying is important. It's awesome. We love that. So I appreciate every single person that came up to give us our props and watch the show and enjoy the show. That was awesome for me. Sabrina, what about you?
- [69:30]
Sabrina Merchant
I was just gonna say that Courtney Williams four point play was really cool.
- [69:35]
Zena Kaeda
I agree. I like, I like the walk away. Was it Alanna Smith that hugged her? I can't remember who was in the picture.
- [69:41]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I just love that moment because Alana Smith and Courtney Williams both came over from the Chicago sky this past season and they've talked about just what a, what a step up in quality it was coming from Chicago to Minnesota. The season that they went through in Chicago with James Wade, you know, leaving halfway through the year, barely scrapping to make the playoffs. And then they come to Minnesota and they get to Be part of this real first class organization that brings out the best in them. They're obviously playing so well and they really pointed to like two moments over the course of the year where they felt like, oh my God, can you believe we're here? And one of them was getting to be on the court for Maya Morris jersey retirement. Both of them were just like, we didn't do anything to deserve this. We're just sitting here next to one of the greatest of all time, watching her have her jersey retired. And then the second one was that four point play where at a Smith gets the offensive rebound, originally looks for Bridget Carlton. Bridget's closed off, so she goes to Courtney. Courtney gets spa back up. Funny enough, like if Courtney had made the first three pointer, that probably was a two pointer that would have been rolled like too short to actually tie the game. So yeah, just a cool moment for the two of them. We'll see what, what year two in Minnesota potentially delivers for Atlanta and Courtney.
- [70:48]
Zena Kaeda
Real quick though, Courtney Williams four point play or Sabrina logo now.
- [70:53]
Sabrina Merchant
Definitely Courtney Williams four point play. It's more points.
- [70:59]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, that's fair, that's fair. All right, guys, we're gonna close this out for the end of the season. But yes, there's already a too early prediction of what the league is gonna look like in terms of rankings. So definitely go check that out on the site. We're gonna do a more in depth conversation because the draft is coming December 6th is the expansion draft. We got. We got to break down what that looks like eventually. So be on the lookout for a show around that. And then soon, folks, college basketball. Okay, it is time to turn our attention. But for now we're going to go let Ben get prepared for the parade and we're going to let Sabrina get some much needed sleep and get her butt back to the west coast. I'm already here and I got to go get a nap myself. But we appreciate you tuning in on behalf of Ben and Sabrina. I'm Zena Keda, as always, thanking you for your ear and encouraging you. Go subscribe. We've got way more women's basketball on the way. This might be the end of the WNBA season, but as I said, NCAA is right around the corner. Please keep listening, keep learning, keep watching and keep loving the game because clearly we are growing it and it's doing a really great job. All right, folks, until next time.
- [72:24]
Sabrina Merchant
As.
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Ben Pickman
To assume there will be a few.
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Zena Kaeda
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Zena Kaeda
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Zena Kaeda
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Zena Kaeda
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Sabrina Merchant
Yeah.
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Zena Kaeda
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Zena Kaeda
How are we here already?
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Sabrina Merchant
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Ben Pickman
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