← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
March Showcases Progress and Parity in Women's Hoops
00:44:05
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- [00:00]
Zena Kada
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- [03:41]
Chantelle Jennings
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- [03:59]
Zena Kada
Be outside, so you gotta be out.
- [04:01]
Chantelle Jennings
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- [07:00]
Ben Pickman
Thanks Cena.
- [07:01]
Zena Kada
Thanks a lot for having us.
- [07:02]
Chantelle Jennings
Of course. I just love that you're back again. We're going to be talking some women's hoops and we're going to talk about what I love the most because we're seeing this across sports really. I think as someone that covers the NBA and women's hoops parody, you love to see it. You love when people are catching up with the game, they're catching up with the big talents and you love when it's dispersing. We would know. We remember the years where all certain schools cough, cough. You know, certain schools used to have all of the talent concentrated in certain conferences. Certain schools. And now you're looking across the country and you're like there could be a winner of the tournament from any corner of this country. So I want to first talk about these conference tournaments because I think that's really where you saw some of the big upsets going into the larger big dance and lower ranked teams finding a Way at this time of the year to outdo their opponents. Let's start going through these conferences and let's list them out. Chantelle, some of the upsets that you saw that really impressed you? I'd love to ask.
- [08:12]
Ben Pickman
Well, I was courtside for the Big Ten. And so on the day of the quarterfinals, we watched as. And I hate this, like, we either say the lower or the higher seeded team, and it's like it can mean either. But there were three of four upsets in the quarterfinals going into the semis that day. The only team that was, quote, unquote, supposed to win that did was Iowa. And part of that I think we can attribute to Mackenzie Holmes not really playing for Indiana against Michigan, but also Michigan played their butts off and they came into that game. Layla Philia was absolutely fantastic. But, you know, I was courtside for this. And you've got Nebraska, Iowa as a rematch, a two and a five on the floor for the title game. And it was just, you know, it had to go into overtime. We had to have five extra minutes of basketball to decide which of these two teams was going to get that automatic bid out of the Big Ten. And so I think just sitting there and seeing, you know, maybe in years past, you could look at a game and say, like, oh, this is clearly like a 1 versus an 8 or something. This is clearly a highly seeded team versus a lower seeded team. And I think this year you look across conference tournaments, you look to the Big East. Georgetown has two upsets coming in. They play their way into the Big east finals. Like, obviously, that's a team that has an amazing story this season. The amount of adversity they fought through playing for Tasha this whole year. But then to put it together on the floor by the postseason, and they lost to UConn, they're not going to be in the tournament. But to sort of put that run together more and more with that talent dispersion, like you said, we're seeing these teams have an opportunity to sort of go toe to toe with these teams that maybe are more blue blood programs or have quote, unquote, you know, the better talent of the two.
- [10:03]
Chantelle Jennings
And what was so interesting, so going even back to the Big Ten. So I watched that OSU Maryland game, and you saw Maryland have the control and the momentum of that game pretty much the whole way. And even though Nebraska lost the Iowa, you can say, I mean, that game too, they should have gotten it done in regular time. Giving, you know, Iowa another five minutes was just basically giving them the win. In that case. But thinking that even in these losses, these the lower ranked team. Right. And you're right, it does get confusing. That's why I keep going back and forth. But the lower ranked team keeping the momentum throughout these games, keeping and imposing themselves upon these teams is really cool. And then yes, that Georgetown win to get them into the the conference finals for the Big east to do it on Tasha Butts birthday was, I mean, chills through my body what they were able to do with the season. And I'm happy you called that out because when I read that, that it was also Tasha Butts birthday. And for those of you that don't know, Tasha Butts was the coach for Georgetown. She passed away earlier this season from cancer. And I mean an icon in the game in terms of how many people she impacted, how many people, whether she played with them and also coached them. Just a beloved figure in the game. And so it was a really beautiful moment that they were able to do that for Ben, what were some of the ones that you noticed in the conference tournament, some of the upsets that made an impact on you?
- [11:32]
Zena Kada
Well, I was first going to say, I mean we talked about kind of close performances and teams that, you know, Nebraska performed very well but came up short. The obvious one we've omitted is South Carolina, Tennessee. Right. Obviously the SEC championship at this point. You know, the championship game will be notable for some other reasons but like Tennessee obviously should have won that game.
- [11:55]
Ben Pickman
Like let's be bounds passer.
- [11:58]
Zena Kada
Yeah. I mean they make some free throws with four seconds to play and they guard the inbounds faster and they are playing it in the SEC championship game. And so when we talk about, you know, teams being able to hang with competition that, you know, a lot of people regard as superior, Tennessee equipped itself incredibly well. And you know, in that context, I think part of that can be attributed to, I think it was their third time playing South Carolina in 24 days and second time within a week, I believe. Right. So there's a ton of familiarity there between those two teams. But you know, credit to the Lady Vols for fighting back from down 22 at one point in the second quarter to claw their way back into the game, take the lead. Rakia Jackson hits that kind of layup short jumper with I think 25 seconds to go or so to give them their first lead of the game. And then obviously we know what happens from there on out. But you know, that was a performance. Again, when we talk about parody and just madness that could be ensuing both that ensued and also could ensue in March. I think that was a really good example of that. And I think one of the things that kind of I'm reminded of in this conversation is, you know, the kind of middle of, like the women's college basketball world has really elevated, right. And so we can talk about parody, but at the end of the day, I still think, like, we're going to look up potentially in the Final Four and we're going to see a lot of favorites or a lot of programs that I think people are familiar with. And that's not to say upsets will not happen like last year, for instance, right? Ole Miss beating Stanford in the second round or Indiana going down in the Sweet 16 to Miami. You know, those are upsets that can happen. But you look up and you still have some programs that have a ton of pedigree. South Carolina, Iowa, lsu, Virginia Tech. I think there's a really good chance that this year's tournament feels very similar, that we're gonna see some upsets, some one sees some. Two seats might go down, but at the end of the day, we're still gonna get some. Some heavy hitters in the Final Four, despite all the madness that could ensue.
- [13:50]
Ben Pickman
I'm glad you brought up that Ole Miss Stanford game because I think that could almost be a harbinger for this season. And, you know, we'll have our anonymous polls coming out, I believe next week or the week after. We've talked with a bunch of coaches anonymously, so we won't say what. But, you know, one of our questions is if you could change one thing about college basketball to move the game forward, what would it be? And one coach told me we've got to get rid of home court advantage in the first and second round because you don't get those upsets as often as on the men's side. And that becomes such a knock on the women's game that, oh, the high, you know, the higher seeded team always wins. The team that's supposed to win always does. It means that the tournament's not exciting. And that's not necessarily true. We saw when Ole Miss went into Palo Alto, took care of business against Stanford, and, you know, a great defensive battle last season. And I think if they were on neutral courts, we would see more of those upsets. Particularly now, because sort of that middle group within women's college basketball is rising up so much. Obviously, you know, that brings in a whole slew of new issues in terms of specifically financial, how they're going to pay for It. And we, you know, we know how much the NCAA loves paying for women's basketball, right. So I'm sure it's going to happen like next year. But, yeah, I think that's one of those things where we'll see it more and more. And then when we get to a point where these games are on neutral sites, I think there's just going to be a proliferation of those upsets. And it was just sort of like, oh, you just needed that one sort of extra factor to get to a place where they could be playing on truly a level playing field.
- [15:16]
Chantelle Jennings
When I think about these, the tournaments and these, the locations, I was just looking up as you were talking, Chantel, about how they used to do the location since they started the NCAA women's basketball tournament in 1982. And it has always been the higher seed, at least in the first rounds, like, would get that location. But it seems like there was a place or a time period where they actually used to do just regular 16 sites between 2003 and 2014 that there were just 16 sites. And it wasn't necessarily the location of the higher seed was the first round. And I'd be very curious to see, like, what happened in those years in terms of upsets or changes to, you know, outcomes just because of. It wasn't just the higher seed. They returned to the higher C location back in 2015, and they've been that way since. So that is interesting. I never, I never really thought about it from that perspective, but it's true. As teams think about the preparation and how they want to finish their conference tournaments and their conferences, they are thinking about, how do we get that home court advantage. I want to ask you all, like, in the time that you guys have been covering the games you've been looking at, particularly conference tournaments, this time of year seems so amped up. It seems so elevated. It seems like everyone's gotten together. Coach yo at Ole Miss had mentioned, like, you know, this is the time of year that everyone's kumbaya. Everyone's on the same page. Do you remember a time in which a team felt like they were, like, just crawling to the finish line before a tournament and still ended up performing well? That just came to mind of, like, is everyone always super together by this point of the year, or has there been teams that have been, like, not so great, but somehow they, like, pulled it out that you guys remember in the, in covering the game?
- [17:02]
Ben Pickman
I do think you could probably say that about Iowa. Even last year, I don't think we saw Them as a team that could get to the national title game, really until that Big Ten tournament run, that sort of, when that offense really took a step up. Gabby Marshall went on that heater where she was shooting like 65% from beyond the arc. And I think a few of their other three point shooters, their shooting got even better during that tournament. So I wouldn't say that they were like crawling. You know, they obviously still had the talent and the Caitlin Clark to be able to win it in, in Minneapolis. But I think that was a team, at least in recent memory that I, you know, if you would have asked me in, in the middle of February or early February, like, is this team going to be playing in the Final Four? I would have been like, they feel like a, like a pretty big long shot. But then I sat courtside when they put an absolute, like an absolutely beautiful performance together against Ohio State. And I was like, oh shit, this team, this team can put points on people. Like, this team can really score.
- [18:00]
Chantelle Jennings
Right? And of course, I think, you know, this is why you're the writer, Chantel, because you put it much more eloquently than what I was trying to say, which is. Exactly. But you're getting exactly to a point of. What I'm trying to say is like, is there a team that you can think of that didn't look like they had it together to go far in the tournament by conference tournament time? And yet somehow when the tournament and the big dance, the music started, they were, they were dancing.
- [18:23]
Zena Kada
Yeah. I mean, for me, the example in recent memory is Arizona when they went to the final and.
- [18:28]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. Oh, that's a good one.
- [18:30]
Zena Kada
It's a really weird year, right? This is the COVID year where all these games are getting postponed and it's an NCAA tournament that occurred in.
- [18:38]
Ben Pickman
And it was neutral site floor.
- [18:39]
Zena Kada
San Antonio, exactly. It was a neutral site floor. And Arizona, they were 15 and 2, so they were a really good team. They lost their final two regular season games. One was to Stanford, one was to Arizona State. They lost their second PAC12 tournament game. So they lose three of their final Four before they go on the NCAA tournament run that eventually sees them lose by a point to Stanford in the national championship. And so that to me is kind of a recent example of a team, you know, that I would be shocked and I don't have that number in front of me. Of how many people on the like ESPN bracket challenge picked Arizona to make the final? My guess is not many pick them to make the final that year. But again, I Think Chantal makes a really good point like that was on a neutral floor and it lended itself really well to just some madness kind of ensuing or some unpredictability ensuing. And sure enough, they end up. And again, they were a really, really good team. We should continue to emphasize that. But they end up in the final, you know, coming a basket away from, from taking home a national championship. Not exactly a team people would have predicted heading into the NCAA tournament.
- [19:41]
Ben Pickman
One of the similarities between those two teams is that they had veteran guard play that could meet the moment. And I think that's something that we see over and over again. Whether It's Arike Ogunbawale, Mississippi State, UConn in the various years that they've gone really far. Like, you want someone who is a veteran, experienced player who's not going to get rattled by the moment, who's going to have their, you know, the ball in their hands late, whether that's on offense or defense. And that is sort of, I think, the trend that we see as well, sort of playing true through, you know, every iteration of this tournament. You want, you know, if people are looking at their brackets and they're trying to say like, should I pick this team or this team? Check out what the guard play looks like. And if one of those teams has significantly better guard play, imagine what it's going to look like with two minutes to go, one point game. Like, who do you trust more with the ball in their hands?
- [20:31]
Chantelle Jennings
Oh, I love that. I think there's a lot of people listening that when you're trying to pick teams and you don't know anything about the team because maybe you didn't watch them all season long. That's a really good way to be able to, to make a decision. Like go look at their roster, look at who's on their team. Are they a bunch of young kids, young players that haven't had a lot of experience going into conference tournaments or having had a lot of experience playing in these type of high pressure moments, or is it some, you know, a team that has a lot of, like you said, experience guard play. I want to dig in, into that a little bit deeper. As you look into, quote, parody, I would say that when a team has more veteran players, that helps with their ability to be more on the level of more, you know, I guess you could say like higher brand teams in terms of performance. But that team may be young. I look at a UConn, for example, right. And the injuries that they've sustained and not having extremely experienced Players like they have, you know, in terms of senior senior guard play and Az Fudd not being able to play and all having, you know, having had their freshmen have to step up all season long. If someone never saw a UConn game and whoever they might play in the first round, that could actually be something that they could compare. How many more experienced guards are on this team versus people that are just coming into the tournament or just coming into this type of environment. Ben, is there anything that you'd like to add to that? Like, okay, now I've got it in my mind. I'm going to be looking at guards and seeing, you know, years on. You never know. But I'll be looking at guards and I'll be looking at years. Unless it's like South Carolina, Notre Dame, Southern California, AKA all the freshmen guards that are killing it right now. But what other qualities can help determine if someone plays really well in the tournament?
- [22:29]
Zena Kada
Well, I wouldn't look at mascots right away. That wouldn't be the place I would go. Or colors of uniforms or, or nicknames or.
- [22:37]
Ben Pickman
It's not a bad choice though.
- [22:39]
Chantelle Jennings
You do you, but people usually go that route.
- [22:41]
Ben Pickman
It's your bracket. You do you.
- [22:43]
Zena Kada
Exactly.
- [22:43]
Chantelle Jennings
That's wrong.
- [22:44]
Zena Kada
And honestly that might be the move this year. Like we're talking about all the teams and all the parody. Like maybe I'm wrong completely and mascots is actually the way to go.
- [22:53]
Chantelle Jennings
That's the easier way to go.
- [22:54]
Zena Kada
Certainly the easier way to fill it out. And honestly, like, you know, again, it's your bracket. You do you. We'll talk about this again over the weekend. Like, and if you want to fill multiple brackets out and that is one way to do it. Like there is no judgment here. I'm sure, you know, we'll do some fun brackets as well. You want to pick players all who's got the best left handed players. Like, go for it. Go, go crazy. I mean, guard plays again like another good sign. I think another kind of general rule is look at free throw shooting as well. Like that is another thing. Teams that feel comfortable at the free throw line, especially in late game situations like those are teams that tend to advance. You can cite plenty and plenty of examples in the college game on both the men's and women's side of NCAA tournament contests being swung simply because players miss free throws. We saw it in the SEC tournament in the, in the semifinal with Tennessee and South Carolina. You can cite a really clear example last year, Utah, lsu, like Utah, I think was a pair of free throws away. From beating LSU and suddenly we have a different champion. Right. You can cite kind of endless examples like that of players making their free throws having a huge effect in these late game moments. So that is something else. Again, you can't necessarily predict it, but that is another good test case. If you're kind of just comparing some resumes as you make some selections, that is something else. I think always some sage advice, not saying it is the end all be all. Maybe mascots will still be better, but it could make a difference too.
- [24:20]
Chantelle Jennings
That's a really good one. I can't think of any perfect examples right now, but I'm just. I know we're about to talk about mid majors, but I feel like free throws really help in that case when they're not necessarily the more athletic team or the more crafty teams and getting to the bucket or whatever. But free throws and three point percentage usually really help those mid majors. But anyways. Chantelle, anything else? This is really good. I'm taking notes folks on how I can help myself in this bracket, but go ahead.
- [24:50]
Ben Pickman
Well, I feel like now we're just giving people like six more things to look at as they're looking at these teams. And maybe at the end of the day you just need to like close your eyes and point. But I think one of the things, because again, I'm gonna have to publish my full bracket and then I get the people on Twitter that come and they're like, you write about this sport and you know nothing and it's like, well, this is March.
- [25:09]
Chantelle Jennings
Take her credentials away. Oh God, exactly.
- [25:12]
Ben Pickman
Do I even watch basketball? But I think the other thing that I look at often is how many games have they won, that the final margin is single digits. So that basically can tell you that they've been in close games late and they've executed. And that is both coaching adjustments and player execution. And I. So I think those things are really important to look at because if there's a team that, you know, has six losses on their schedule and five of them have come by like five or fewer points, that might be an indicator that this is a team that doesn't know how to close out games yet. And again, we get into the tournament, every possession matters. You're going to get into those situations with two minutes to go. How confident can you be that they're going to close out that game late? And that again comes down to coaching and the players being able to execute what their coach is telling them. And so, you know, look at three point percentage. Look at free Throw percentage, look at the guards, but also sort of, you know, just look at their overall resume in terms of have they done this before? Do they know how to execute in those late game situations and do you feel confident in their ability to do so?
- [26:20]
Chantelle Jennings
I wish you guys could see my face right now. I feel like I'm getting, like, the inside scoop. This is. It's crazy. I've been watching basketball for so long. I feel like. Obviously I feel like I know the game, but I've never, when it came to the tournament, one, because I never went. But two, because I just never really knew how to look at the teams that I'd never seen play that year and determine, could this be a good team? Could this not be a good team? And you could do all you want of reading the articles on, you know, Yahoo or espn, wherever you get your brackets, and they try to do the little, you know, splurge that tells you how this team is and versus the other team. But this is a. Like, these are really great ways to be able to assess a team that you've never seen play and how they could potentially match up against their opponents. I love this. We weren't even planning on doing this, but this is like bracket cheat sheet over here. I appreciate you guys.
- [27:10]
Ben Pickman
Before we move on, I. I feel like we can't leave this conversation without picking our favorite mascots that are going to be in the tournament this year. That just sort of feels like. Can we truly put this conversation to bed without discussing the best mascots in this year's tournament?
- [27:27]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, of course. Let's. Let's go into it. Do you have yours already chosen?
- [27:30]
Ben Pickman
I have an easy favorite because it's always my favorite. And this. This mascot won't actually be in the arena, but Ralphie at Colorado is just never seen a buffalo run that fast. It's one of the most incredible things you've ever seen. And you know the part of me that knows that you can't bring a Buffalo into a basketball arena for so many obvious reasons? I just wish you could, though. That would be so cool. You know, it's one thing to see Ralphie on. On a football field, but to see Ralphie in Cleveland would. Would be pretty spectacular, I think.
- [28:06]
Chantelle Jennings
Okay, Ben, I just can't believe you.
- [28:09]
Zena Kada
Went with a live mascot. Like, like, truly, like, are we just going to start throwing out Bevo and UGA and like, all the bulldogs out there? Yeah.
- [28:19]
Ben Pickman
So, like, mascots.
- [28:20]
Zena Kada
Should I say that? Like, I want to make the case for Bevo. We should see, like, Colorado And Texas. And we'll get like, you know, an actual. What is Bevo?
- [28:29]
Chantelle Jennings
A bull.
- [28:29]
Ben Pickman
I think I believe a bull. A longhorn.
- [28:31]
Zena Kada
Yes, a longhorn. Like, that's not my favorite. But, like, that you went there is crazy.
- [28:37]
Ben Pickman
Chantel, if I'm good for anything on this podcast, it's for picking, having really bad random takes, just having that.
- [28:45]
Chantelle Jennings
But you're from your Arkansas. We don't have to bring earlier this year.
- [28:49]
Ben Pickman
We don't have to bring it.
- [28:50]
Chantelle Jennings
I don't know. I don't know. I feel like it didn't. It didn't pan out terribly. I think actually they did pretty well. Anywho, I will say I'm gonna go the complete opposite way. And I think this is like the Ivy person in me because I. If anybody knows anything about Ivy League and mascots, bands, everything, we do everything very nerdy. Like, it's just like the Yale mascot is legit, the way he's like, Handsome Dan's legit. But if you look at, like the football halftime shows and you look at, like the basketball timeout breaks, it's always just like, kind of awkward. And that's why I love the Stanford Cardinal. That tree, if you've ever seen it, is so pathetic.
- [29:32]
Ben Pickman
It's like, well, and every year, and.
- [29:35]
Chantelle Jennings
Every year it's different, but you can, like, see through the frame. It like twirls around on the court. It's weird. It's different. It doesn't care. Like, it doesn't do anything, really. It just like literally every single time out just goes out and just twirls and. Yeah. So that's why I think that might be my favorite mascot. It's just thought awkward and different. All right, Mid majors are part of this parody conversation because even though they're mid majors, they all have some legitimate talent. And the funny thing is, we actually saw an example of that with the folks at usc, right? Thinking of the three players that came from the Ivy League that came to join USC and helped lift USC to a conference tournament this year, a conference tournament win and championship this year when juju wasn't being juju. I'll give Stanford credit of their defense helped shut down a little bit juju. And man, did her teammates from mid majors, AKA Ivy Leagues, step up. And so I love talking about the mid majors because usually they're the ones that if you're talking about a Cinderella story, they're going to be at the helm of it with the mid majors. It's hard, though, to be able to assess how do you approach your season trying to make it to the tournament, but you have to make some serious leaps and bounds. You have to probably win your conference tournament in order to get a seed and then try to be on the bubble, try to schedule your schedule so that you can get some big time wins against some major teams. So I want to ask you all about the mid majors and ones that you've seen stand out. And then also how does a mid major get to the tournament and perform well? Ben, I'll start with you.
- [31:16]
Zena Kada
So let me just throw out some parameters or some outlines here, right. To answer your questions. You know, so a lot of the Power 5 conferences, their champions have been claimed, but a lot of the top mid major programs, those bids, those conference tournaments are still kind of at large right now and are waiting to be claimed. So a lot of schools people have talked about this year, Princeton and Columbia, Florida, Gulf Coast, Fairfield, Middle Tennessee, those are just some of the not those are some of the mid majors who have not yet claimed spots in the field of 68. They have not yet won their conference tournament. So there's actually still a lot to be decided. And so depending on how a lot of those championship games go, there could be some bid stealers out there that either bump out some of those teams I just mentioned or bump out some other Power 5 schools, depending on the results of those those games. Princeton is one a mid major that I think is important to highlight. And we talk a lot about the Ivy League here for obvious reasons. Zena, as you are an Ivy League basketball alum. Yes, but Princeton is a really good example of a team that played an elite, elite schedule. Right? They beat Oklahoma, they lost to UCLA on the road by three points. They lost to Indiana, they beat Seton hall, they beat Villanova, they beat Rutgers, they then lost just one game in their conference that was to Columbia. A great game by the way, with a great atmosphere in Columbia's gym, which you know, was one of the best games I've seen this year. And they find themselves like probably in the field like they are 34th overall in net rankings. They played a really good schedule. As I mentioned, they were really good in the conference. They probably do not to win their conference tournament to make the field of 68. But Columbia on the other hand probably does because of their non conference schedule. Both of those teams are fighting for the Ivy League championship and we'll hope that hopefully for their sakes they'll meet in the final and we'll see what happens from there. But that is a really interesting Mid major case. And you know, it reflects the schedules that they played and how they performed in conference overall.
- [33:11]
Ben Pickman
I think adding on to Princeton, you know, one of the reasons to go back to when we were talking about these are the reasons why teams win. Princeton is led by a senior guard, Caitlin Chen, who is fantastic. This is a team that has NCAA tournament experience. They've won games against Power 5 opponents or Power 6 opponents in the NCAA tournament. And Caitlin Chen was a huge part of that. You know, she's someone who, because the Ivy League isn't allowing players to come back and play at their own schools for their Covid year. Which is why we've seen sort of the quote unquote nerds at usc. I've talked to a lot of power conference coaches who think she's going to be one of the most highly sought after players in the transfer port year if she opts in for that fifth year simply because she is such a veteran, calming presence on the floor, great ball handler, distributor, shooter, playmaker, she can do it all for a team. And when you're looking at, you know, who you can infuse into your own roster, she's someone that a lot of major coaches want, I would say, which is beside the point. We obviously have to get through the tournament before we get to the transfer portal. But if you are talking to, you know, coaches from across the country and they're aware of an Ivy League point guard, this might not have been the case 10 years ago, but it is now. And I think that's, you know, great guard play, Carla Barubi as a head coach, you know, someone who's been in this situation before, they don't, you know, like Ben said, they lost that close one on the road to ucla. They lost to Rhode island, they lost Indiana when Indiana was healthy. So, you know, you kind of have to weigh these factors. But I like Princeton even without seeing the bracket yet I like Princeton for at least a first round game win.
- [34:47]
Zena Kada
And they saw, you know, a few years back they upset Ryan Howard in Kentucky when Kentucky was coming off their SEC championship. So this is also a team that has some experience in the tournament, they'll be a popular upset pick certainly when the draw comes out.
- [35:00]
Chantelle Jennings
So if you're a mid major team and you guys were just comparing, for example, Princeton and Columbia, but even thinking about some of the teams that you just listed off Ben, before, it sounds like it's important for you to look at your schedule before the season and make sure that you have some top caliber or expected to be top caliber teams on your schedule in order to make an impression because the selection committee does look at the entire resume of the year, is that right?
- [35:30]
Zena Kada
Yeah. But there's also like some guesswork here that you of course don't know heading into the year who is going to be really good in the power five and who isn't. Right. Certainly like from the media standpoint like Oregon State has surprised a lot of people public publicly because of how good they've been. And so like if you booked Oregon State on your schedule three years ago or two years ago and you played them this year, like that game is a much better game in the moment because of how Oregon State has looked. I think for mid major scheduling. There's kind of an interesting dynamic in conference play though as well. You mentioned kind of the out of conference scheduling component, but there's an in conference component that I want to touch on as well which is like how do you value the regular season? I think is a question that a lot of mid major coaches kind of wrestle with because if you play in a league in which you might only get one team for out of your your league to make the field of 68, do you try and win every single game in the regular season and you know, coach to go undefeated and win the regular season conference tournament and maybe play your players more minutes or maybe not test your depth as much or play with different lineup combinations or do you put yourself in a position so that when March comes you know, you know you've, you've toggled with things enough during the regular season so that when the conference tournament comes you are locked in, you're focused, you know exactly what your best looks are because you've tested out a gazillion different things like, and the answer probably like everything else lies somewhere in the middle. And it's definitely not an exact science. But I do think there are a lot of mid major cases like that this year. I think a good one I look at is like Florida Gulf coast for for instance and this is a program that has had a lot of success in recent years. They've had some WNBA players in recent years, but you look at their overall body of work this year, it's probably not as strong as it has been in some other years. The talent on the roster is probably not as strong overall. The conference as a whole in the a sun is not as strong. They're still a really good team. They're 26 and 4, their record is really good. But they probably will only make the field of 68 if they win their conference tournament. Right. So they're going to need to win it versus like in past years they probably could have gotten that large bid overall. And that's the kind of thing we're going to potentially see with Princeton if they fall, if they don't win the Ivy League. So that's a big question there. Fairfield is another one, right? Fairfield has won. I want to say it's. They've lost one game this year. They're one of just two teams overall who has lost fewer than two games, South Carolina being the other. They've won, I want to say 25 or 26 games in a row at the time of this taping. They're going to need to win the Mac championship to make the field because of their non conference schedule though, even though they played some good games out of conference. So they're another case of like, you know, they've been trying a lot of things out. Their coach, Carly Thibaut Dodonis, you know, she plays a lot of lineups. They play 10 deep, they play with guards and what they call roadrunners. They don't even call them forwards, they're just like big. They play kind of a five out system. They run around a lot, they push the pace. They don't like think of them as traditional posts. So they're a team that they're going to need to win their conference tournament just because of the conference that they play in. But they've also tried a lot of things out. So that is another mid major scenario that you keep your eye on as, as things play out here.
- [38:50]
Ben Pickman
And I think what's really interesting about these mid major teams that come from conferences that only have one bid. I think this is sort of the inside baseball stuff that maybe casual observers don't appreciate as much about March Madness is that you know, when you only have one bid in your conference tournament, it doesn't matter what you did in your regular season, you've got to win three, four, five games. That's it. Like you could go winless in your conference season. As long as you win those four games at the right time, you're going to be in March Madness just like South Carolina, just like Iowa, just like usc. And so I think the benefit for those teams, and again, if it weren't home court advantage for the first two rounds for the higher seeded teams, I think we'd see more upsets. But the benefit for these mid major teams coming out of single qualifier conferences is that they've played these games already like 3 4, 5 times by the time they get to March Madness. Whereas none of the teams that are in the power conferences feel that, you know, like UConn doesn't win the Big east, they're going to be in the tournament. USC doesn't win the Pac12, they're going to be in the tournament. South Carolina doesn't win the SEC, they're still going to be the number one overall seed because of everything else they've done that season and because they come from a power conference. But if it's a single bid from, if it's a single bid conference, you know, playing with that pressure, I think that's so valuable. And again, I think that's why we've seen more mid major teams on the men's side specifically have deep runs. And then, you know, you look at the women's side this year, like 10 seed rice just won the American, which is incredible what Lindsay Edmonds has done there. And then you're still looking at, you know, five seed Presbyterian out of the Big south one. You've got three, four, five seeds in a bunch of conference championships. And you know, some of these are single bid conferences, some aren't. But again, I think it just goes back to the conversation of parity. And once we really get to a place where there is a level playing field, especially early on in the tournament, we're going to see so many more upsets because the level of women's college basketball is so much higher than it's ever been.
- [40:56]
Chantelle Jennings
So to wrap this up, I want to ask you all a question, because as a person that played at a time that there was not an Ivy League tournament, there was. You won the regular season and that was your bid and that was it. That was it. Do you all feel as if for mid majors, conference tournaments are kind of like a cheat code?
- [41:18]
Zena Kada
I mean, a cheat code, Zena, in that the best team doesn't always win.
- [41:21]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, yeah. And it's a cheat code to get into the tournament if you just play well for those three, four, five games.
- [41:29]
Ben Pickman
I think so. Because I think in order to play well at that time in consecutive games, usually day after day after day after day, to call that a cheat. I don't know if I could, I.
- [41:40]
Zena Kada
Could say that I would frame it this way. Like March overall does not always reward the best teams. That is just the function of the setup of the NCAA tournament and conference tournament. That in single elimination settings, the best team over the course of the regular season does not always win. Now, we've seen a lot of cases in the women's draw because, you know, of some of the talent, dominance, and concentration in past years, a team like UConn, which was, you know, when they're winning four straight titles, they were the best team, and they won every year. But what we're kind of talking about in this parody conversation is that the best team does not always win, because in single elimination tournaments, you just have to be the best team that night, or you don't even have to be the best team. You just have to simply outscore your opponent and be the team ahead on that night. And that can often be good enough. Right? And so that is the same case in conference tournaments as it is in the NCAA tournament, where, you know, luck, a little bit of luck can go a long way. And suddenly a team that, you know, has won 30 games in the regular season or 28 games and has been dominant all year in their conference, is suddenly not playing in the highest stakes games because, you know, they just didn't make enough plays, they got unlucky or didn't go their way. And that's kind of how this works. And, you know, March Madness, that's why so many people like it, because, you know, you don't really know what's gonna happen, and that's part of why it's so exciting. So I wouldn't frame it as a cheat code at all. I think it's just the appeal of the system.
- [43:03]
Chantelle Jennings
Right. I don't want to undercut anyone's talent, you know, by saying that it always feels like when you were just saying about how you don't necessarily have to be the best during the regular season, but you just have to figure out the toggles to your team that will help you be the best at conference tournament time. It's like, oh, this is kind of like a way to. I guess, yeah, it's gonna sound bad all the way. So I'm just gonna. Not. We're gonna strike that. I'm saying, for the record, that I am taking that off the board. It's not a cheat code, but it is a great way to redeem yourself if you didn't have a great regular season, and then you can really show your capabilities in the conference tournament time. So, yeah, that sounds a lot better.
- [43:47]
Ben Pickman
And I think, again, to bring the conversation back to parody, Ben touched on it. But in terms of, like, that little element of luck, like, during that run that South Carolina had, right? Like, you could have some luck against that team. And because they were just so much more talented than you were, like, that might just mean that you guys lose by 12 instead of 25. Right. But I think now, because we're seeing talent across more teams and I think the portal is a big part of this because teams are getting players who are older and maybe have played in other systems and are being input into these new systems. Whatever it is like Magic is playing or that luck is playing more of an element this year because we are getting closer to sort of a level playing field where, you know, it sort of does feel like on any given night in certain conferences, like, anyone could win. It did certainly feel that way in the Pac 12 this year, and I think that's the conference that probably has the highest shot of having the most elite eight teams. I would say at this point, looking at the, you know, without even seeing the bracket, but heading into the tournament this year because of where the game is, I just feel like Magic might play more of a part this year because of the parody that we see right now.
- [44:54]
Chantelle Jennings
Mm, yeah. Okay. No, I'm, I'm excited because it does seem as if 1. The competition is obviously a all time high, but it does seem as if we might get some more Cinderella stories that we see on the men's side, on the women's side this upcoming year. Let's talk about how we at the Athletic are about to switch up our coverage during this time because it's madness, baby, and we got to keep up with all of it. So I'm, I'm excited not only with our coverage, our coverage on the site is going to expand beyond just Chantelle, Ben, Sabrina, Mark. There's going to be others within the newsroom that are going to jump on, which they've already had. There's some stories right now live on, on the site around women's basketball that others have joined in on, but there's also going to be a change to our show in the way that we cover the tournament. So, Chantel, tell me a little bit more about what we're about to do to switch it up.
- [45:52]
Ben Pickman
So in terms of the podcast, we'll keep recording so that people can expect to hear shows on Tuesdays and Fridays. And given how the tournament shakes out in terms of scheduling, that actually helps us sort of recap what might have happened the weekend before and preview what's about to come. So keep, keep showing up on Tuesdays and Fridays, but also we will have emergency podcasts for good reasons, I guess. Like, if something crazy happens, we might throw an extra podcast onto our schedule just to make sure people feel like they are Hearing from us at the biggest times and the biggest moments during the NCAA tournament.
- [46:24]
Zena Kada
I would just add the biggest thing is that we're going to have a podcast releasing next Monday morning. So instead of showing up in your Tuesday morning feed, Sabrina, myself, Xena, we're gonna fire up the microphones, maybe Mark. On Sunday night after the bracket is revealed, we'll walk you through our instant bracket reactions, surprises, sleepers, Cinderella, Final Four title picks, all of that so that you can get caught up to speed and get a sense for everything that is to come over the next couple weeks. And that will be in your feed on Monday morning when you wake up and you start to fill out those bracket office pools and do your first bracket and then do your mascot bracket and then do your left handed players bracket and all the other brackets that your heart so desire.
- [47:02]
Chantelle Jennings
You hear that folks? We are working overtime for y'all. Okay? We want to make sure you are well equipped going into this March Madness. And I'm so excited because again, this is like really the first time that I am going to be like in the trenches with you all as I cover this rather than just watching as a fan. And so you'll get the perspective of me as someone that's like not, that's new to this. All right? And then mixed in with those that are true to this. And I'm very, very excited to be alongside them in the midst of this. So please, if you guys have anything that you want us to particularly look out for, help explain, etc, please share that information. I want to do a little bit more information like digging into like the history of the Selection Sunday. If you guys don't know, it wasn't until just a year ago or two years ago now that it used to be Selection Monday and they shifted everything to be more in alignment with the men's tournament and they've gone to 68 teams last year rather than the 64. So there's going to be that first four play in all that. We're going to walk through all of that, but I'm interested to see if I find any fun facts about it because I just love a little history on some things. But Chantelle, Ben, thank you for giving us again another great conversation on the game on parody on mid Majors. Also our bracket cheat sheet. I got my notes, I wrote those down. I'm excited to fill out my bracket. But remember guys, 15, 15 different conferences have not actually finished their conference tournaments yet. So there's still a lot of basketball action happening right now. Make sure to tune in, you might be able to see something that will help you fill out your bracket. For now. I appreciate you all tuning in today. Again, hit that subscribe button on our show because I don't know if you just heard Chantelle and Ben, but you do not want to miss out on what we're about to have happen in these next few weeks. Leave us comments again if you have topics or questions or anything that you want us to cover or anything for our writers. But I'm Zena Kada on behalf of Chantelle and Ben, thanking you for your ear, encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. Until next time. Foreign.
- [49:19]
Zena Kada
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Ben Pickman
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Chantelle Jennings
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Ben Pickman
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Chantelle Jennings
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Zena Kada
Hey guys, we have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
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Ben Pickman
For the past seven years, the Holderness.
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Zena Kada
Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
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Ben Pickman
We love getting to talk to experts.
- [50:55]
Zena Kada
We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also love hearing from you. But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh.
- [51:03]
Chantelle Jennings
A lot has changed in the last.
- [51:05]
Zena Kada
Seven years and we feel very lucky.
- [51:07]
Chantelle Jennings
That our audience is growing older with.
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Zena Kada
So in the spirit of that, we.
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Ben Pickman
Are relaunching our podcast.
- [51:12]
Zena Kada
We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
- [51:16]
Chantelle Jennings
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all.
- [51:18]
Zena Kada
About aging together better and also being able to laugh about getting older.
- [51:23]
Ben Pickman
We hope you'll join us.
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Zena Kada
Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen Holderness New episodes every Tuesday.
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Ben Pickman
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