← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
NCAAW’s Media Deal - Money, Madness or Both?
00:38:33
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- [00:00]
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- [04:51]
Zena Kada
For the athletic I'm Zena Caida and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Oh Happy New Year folks. All of us at the Athletic Women's Basketball show just want to thank you for starting out your new year with us. We appreciate all the support that we've gotten since we launched in September 2023. Quite a few shows. If you haven't listened to them, go back. You know there's tons of time. Don't worry, the year just started, but we are excited to continue this very fun and important conversation around women' basketball. If you're new to the show, welcome. We appreciate you. This is a safe space, a fun space, a learning Space where we can talk women's basketball. You'll learn about what's going on not only in the ncaa, in the WNBA and all in between and around it. And I will say I have missed you all. I had a very busy end to the year and I was moving and then I also transitioned to a full time media person. So we're excited about that. I'm happy to be finally talking sports for a living. With that being said, sports business, which I was in for years, is always going to remain an interest, a passion of mine. And that's why I'm particularly happy to have the conversation I'm going to have today with athletic writer Chantelle Jennings. We got some important sports business news to discuss. Welcome, Shantel, and happy New Year.
- [06:28]
Chantelle Jennings
Thanks, Xena. It's so good to have you back and obviously our listeners can't see this, but it's so good to see your face. So I'm happy to be here.
- [06:36]
Zena Kada
Same here. I'm, I'm really happy to be back and I've enjoyed you guys being able to get together. I particularly. No, no, no, no. I genuinely appreciate the shows that you guys have done. One, while I've been out and then two, the conversation that you guys had on last show, if you haven't listened to it, go back. There's, there's a mix of everything in there, whether it's NCAA talking about the Olympics, talking free agency, even with the W show gives a great example of all the things we touch on here at the athletic men's basketball show. So I appreciate you guys doing everything you did while I was out and holding the fort down. And now I'm back and I'm excited to talk to you because you got some really good news to bring to us. And this has been announced, if you haven't already heard. There's been a new media deal signed with espn and I want to give it to you, Chantel, to kind of give us the details. But this is a good thing when it comes to visibility for women's sports.
- [07:34]
Chantelle Jennings
So, Zena, the top line is that the NCAA said on Thursday that it had reached an eight year agreement with ESPN valued at 115 million a year to televise 40 college sports championships over the next eight years. Within that, annually, women's basketball is valued at 65 million a year. And so I think, you know, women's basketball fans are going to see that as a good thing. I think the point of consternation here is obviously going to be that women's basketball was bundled into this 40 sport package rather than being put out on its own, sort of to, you know, give a go at the free market and see what it could gather just as a standalone entity. And so, you know, we haven't seen a ton of reaction thus far. The coaches that I've texted to sort of chat with them about it today, they've written back and said, you know, I want to like read more into the deal, talk with some of my administrators before I decide exactly how I feel about it. I think a lot of coaches are sort of taking that approach at this point, but I think there's going to be a lot of people that are upset that, you know, given the push that women's basketball has had in recent years to be put on its own like the men's basketball championship, that that didn't happen with this deal.
- [08:48]
Zena Kada
That part of separating the women's game or women's basketball game from the other sports. And then also the part about the length of time. Now I, for those of you that don't know, did partnerships on the sports side and the NFL and the NBA for a long time. And when you have anything past the three to four year mark, you're looking at, I mean that's like a legitimate partnership. You think about some of these, the naming rights of things, right? Naming rights of tournaments, the naming rights of arenas, those are usually in the scale of PAC past the five year mark and closer to the ten year mark. So seeing that eight year was very surprising. And it means that one, yes, ESPN is dedicated to this, but I think it also limits women's basketball in terms of what you're talking about potentially being put on its own pedestal and its own lane to be able to find some partnerships. So I want to kind of dive in first. Like, did you expect this for one women's basketball to be bundled in that way? And then also the length of time, like what were you thinking was going to happen with this?
- [09:54]
Chantelle Jennings
The more I spoke with industry experts over the last year or so because I think, you know, obviously we've heard coaches say very publicly that they wanted to be unbundled from the other championships. The NCAA doesn't have to do what the coaches want. It's obviously helpful when they're both sort of pulling in the same direction, but they don't have to do what the coaches want. But the more that I talked with folks within media, within broadcast, the more convinced I got that the women's championship was going to be bundled. I think there are risks that the NCAA clearly saw in going elsewhere. And I think ultimately ESPN knew that it had a ton of leverage going into sort of their exclusive bargaining window with the ncaa. That said, the eight year portion did surprise me a bit. When I was talking with people, it sounded like it was going to be a four to five year deal just because it's hard to project. Like you look at where not only women's college basketball, but also sort of where media was eight years ago. How consuming media, like eight years from now, in 2032, how are we going to consume media? What are we going to do? How are we going to take in the women's basketball tournament, the NCAA tournament, All of these things are questions. And to sort of value it eight years from now at also 65 million, feels like it's obviously going to be undervalued at that point to an extreme margin. However, there are benefits to sort of having that longevity, like you said, having that partnership. ESPN for its missteps, has done a good job in broadcasting the tournament. And ultimately, like I said, I think there were risks elsewhere. Like let's say, you know, had we've been having this conversation and another entity had come in and threw $100 million at the NCAA and women's basketball was on its own right now, I would still have a fair amount of sort of wait and see approach to it. Just because to put the women's basketball tournament right now in this high growth period onto a platform that has never broadcast the NCAA tournament is a huge risk. And you had to factor that in as the ncaa, like let's hand off this huge thing to a company that's never done this before. It's pretty risky. And so a lot of confidence, right it's and having confidence in someone who's never done it before. And the women's tournament has sort of inherent chall challenges to it. That first week they're at 17 different sites. And you think about, you know, as someone who has covered the warriors, like you've got to find for that first weekend, 16 people who can do play by play, 16 people who can do color commentary, 16 people who can do sideline everyone to operate those cameras, everyone in the truck. You have to have a headquarters that is operating at times, eight games at once and keeping everything streamlined. Then you have to have a studio show that's going between games and sort of on top of everything, like beyond sort of what they would need to do in terms of just having the service to stream it or put it on TV or whatever that platform would be. You have to have the personnel to do it, too. And so I think it was just ultimately, there was a lot of risk in going that way as well. And so as upset as I think a lot of people in the game will be that it stayed bundled, I think you also have to understand the risks in going to a platform that has never broadcast a tournament. The magnitude of the NCAA tournament.
- [13:22]
Zena Kada
That's a very great point. And I, I want to get back to what you were talking about in terms of what can happen in the course of eight years. There's a lot you just said that I want to unpack, but let's start with that one first, because not only from a women's basketball perspective, hell, women's volleyball could also make a case to say, hey, we want to be separated when we want to properly be evaluated over the course of eight years. You look at the game that just happened or their tournament game that just happened. Average 1.7 million viewers, up 115% from 2022. Now, we're not going to say that that 115% is going to continue year over year over year, but in one year that viewership was up. Imagine what can happen in eight years, especially when brands are buying into it and allowing, for, you know, viewers to get more access to these players and have more visibility and AKA more viewership. So it's not just women's basketball that's in the mix. That's probably gonna be like, excuse me, hello. I think we're worth a little bit more money now in eight years, but especially women's basketball. And then you also think about the fact that the women's tournament from last year, same thing, there were so many, whether it was the second round, the first round, I mean, up 55% from the last year in terms of March Madness viewership, and then viewership numbers being the most on record in the last year. So everyone knows it's, you know, not headline news. But women's sports viewership is on the rise. And so I cannot imagine being locked into a price from eight years ago today looking at just what's happened to the sport. Now, another thing that you bring up, the logistical aspect of trying to find another broadcaster that has the scale of an espn and, you know, the first thing that came to mind was, you know, potentially at Amazon or. But there's obviously there's some, there's legacy partners like a CBS, like an NBC, etc. Or Fox in the mix, but that is hard. Being able to find that level of talent, being able to find that scale of talent, you know, our producer knows, like even though right now, when it comes to the tournament, when it comes to these kind of large scale events, those roles are come few and far between, but being able to find people that can do that job well, even more scarce. So, yeah, I get why they, they wanted to go with a person that's able to do it has shown a capability of being able to do it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Now, knowing that the conferences operate individually versus the tournament, what do you expect in terms of potential alignment between those two entities to be able to back what the coaches said that they did not want to be bundled in within this deal, they wanted to be separated. And knowing that conferences have their own TV deals.
- [16:14]
Chantelle Jennings
So, you know, conferences are constantly looking at different options. And so especially right now, where we're in the midst of this massive change in the landscape of what college conferences look like, you know, we talk so much about how the PAC 12 is going away, and a big part of that is that it was because the PAC12 networks was never really able to secure that national distribution partner from a broadcasting perspective. So I think we're going to see conferences and schools get creative about how they distribute their own games. I think with the tournament eight years from now, it's hard to predict anything. I don't know what it'll look like. I think the interesting thing to note about the eight years though, and you know, I spoke with Charlie Baker, NCAA president yesterday, and he kept bringing this point up, was that 2032 is also in the men's tournament. Contract with CBS expires and so the line and the men's sort of aligned for the first time. Is there a potential there to sell those as a package? You know, I think we've talked so much about the women want to unbundle for, you know, I think a lot of good reasons. So much of the conversation in women's basketball, but especially recently, especially since the 2021 bubble season, has sort of been equity between the men's and the women's game. And the men haven't been sort of asked to carry other sports in the way that a lot of women, women's coaches feel like they have been asked to carry other. However we get to 2032, is there a possibility to potentially sell the men's and women's tournament together again? You're looking then at a broadcast partner who would be able to carry two tournaments. We're talking about even more platforms, people. All of those challenges I said before for just the women's tournament times two. It's a lot of basketball, a lot of teams, a lot of coaches, a lot of players. But the fact that it lines up is interesting. It'll be a. You know, right now, we're not going to talk about it a ton, because eight years is a really far time. But I think when we get closer to it, there's going to be a lot of talk about is this potentially going to be like the PGA and the lpga, where it's sort of bundled together and sold as a unit? And maybe this will be a time when bundling with the men's and women's tournament would be something that women's coaches specifically would appreciate. I think it's also interesting because there has been a lot of talk in different circles, and this is. This is a thought that many women's coaches that I talk to are not thrilled about. But there has been talk about bringing the Final Fours together, the men's and the women's, in a single site. And so if, you know, the men's and women's tournament are sold together as a package in 2032, that sort of gets you one step closer to having this mega Final Four, mega national title weekend, which, when I've talked with a lot of college coaches on the women's side, they're not a huge fan of that idea. They want to stand alone. So much of the conversation around women's basketball right now is they want to stand alone. They don't want to sort of constantly be compared to the men's game, but they want to have the same access to things that the men's game has. And. And so all of this conversation is going to ramp up, you know, four years from now when we get closer to whatever the deal or deals might look like come 2032. But it's definitely an interesting time in women's hoops.
- [19:19]
Zena Kada
Oh, for sure. I'm happy you brought that up, because the way I was envisioning it was they would still remain separate sites, but they would just be happening more so around the same time. And because it would be one broadcaster, the way that it would be scheduled would allow for you to watch the women's games without the, you know, necessarily the overlap. Right. Because right now they're staggered in timing very slightly, but staggered in timing. So I. I just thought it'd be interesting to see them kind of layer on top of each other that way. So knowing that the NCAA has multiple portions to it, so there's the first and second round. There's the Sweet 16, there's the Elite Eight, the Final Four, and then obviously the championship. Is there any way that schools can make money off of being a part of the NCAA before this turn? Like the actual tournament dollars or the tournament deal happens? Like, what is their incentive to participate in this tournament if it's not set up in the way that they want it to be set up?
- [20:15]
Chantelle Jennings
So on the men's side, they receive units. So every team that appears in the NCAA tournament for the men gets one unit, and for every game that team wins, they get another unit. And ultimately, these units go back to that school's conference. And over the course of six years, you know, year after year, this money is paid back to the conference. So, for instance, on the men's side, the SEC last year made $34 million from the men's tournament, even though they didn't have a single team in the Elite Eight. Meanwhile, wild on the women's side, because there is no unit distribution model. The SEC had South Carolina and LSU in the Final Four, and LSU won the national title. They got zero doll unit distribution because it just doesn't exist on the women's side. So I think the really interesting thing here is in talking with Charlie Baker yesterday, he said, you know, they're looking at a units distribution model for the women's game. Obviously, in the previous media rights deal, which was 34 million for 29 sports, women's basketball was valued at 6 to 7 million a year. Now it's valued at $65 million a year. There's a large chunk of change here that's very, very different. So you sort of wonder how much of that can go into a units distribution model. Maybe it's not, and it's probably not 2 million a game, because that's not going to work out. In terms of the math, however, that amount of money incentivizes universities and conferences to invest in those sports. And so you look at different conferences and it's a payout, right? If there's a potential for the SEC to get $34 million without winning a national title, there's a huge incentive to make sure it's men's basketball teams not only get to the tournament, but perform well at the tournament. There isn't that same incentive on the women's side. And so these are all ways, you know, when we look at college sports, you know, the big driver is money. How can you invest more money into these different sports? Because that's what really propels programs and sports forward. How can the NCAA and Entities outside of the NCAA that want to invest in women's basketball, invest more to sort of push this game forward. Units is one huge way. And the other way is actually something we haven't talked about yet and is honestly one of the most confusing things in the ncaa. But it's one of the biggest game changers, which is actually creating a third tier of corporate partnerships for the ncaa.
- [22:48]
Zena Kada
I'm very happy that you brought up the third tier of corporate sponsorship because this is more my lane. This is where I'm a little bit more familiar about sports business and, and partnerships and how brands wanting to associate their brand with a particular tournament, with the viewership and the viewers of that tournament. That's where they can capitalize and they can find their way into basically all aspects of the tournament. Whether it's the obvious one, the commercial aspect, the physical signs that we see on the floor or throughout the arenas, the gift packages that the players receive. I mean, there's so many different ways that brands can find their way into the tournament. But that aspect of having, like marquee partners, right, that the WNBA has their change makers, right, there's the NBA has their version of it as well. There are these key league partners that kind of elevate the league and they, they act as like exclusive partners. The NCAA tournament doesn't really have that. Like a league of marquee partners. And I love this being an opportunity to make some more money for the tournament and the teams. But why do you think that they've avoided it so far? Like, why do you think that they've not gone for that? Is it because it closes the opportunity for tons of brands to get involved because they're exclusive?
- [24:11]
Chantelle Jennings
So the issue with the sponsorships right now is that all of these sponsorship agreements for championships are negotiated by CBS and Turner Sports, not the ncaa. Oh, and so CBS know that. And Turner Sports, which has the marketing agreement with the men's tournament. Part of that agreement is that they negotiate and they run those corporate agreements. And so currently, as it stands, the NCAA has two levels. There is the corporate champions level and the corporate partners level. And at the corporate champions level, there's only three businesses. AT&T Capital One and Coca Cola. Below that, there's like 12 in the corporate partners. But you think about these businesses and sort of what the barrier to entry is going to be in terms of how much money is Coca Cola paying? How much money is AT&T and capital One paying to sort of be this corporate champion? These are 30 to 40 billion dollars a year. Businesses, probably a lot more than most businesses can afford. Below them. You still have these heavy hitters, though. It's like Marriott and Dick's and Pizza Hut. Like, these aren't smaller entities. And so when I've talked with coaches specifically and stakeholders within women's basketball, but also all women's sports, this is something that could be opened up to every sport outside of men's basketball. There are potential partners that want to give money, that want to buy into a level of partnership.
- [25:43]
Zena Kada
But.
- [25:43]
Chantelle Jennings
But the hurdle is just too high currently. You know, let's think about, you know, we don't even have to talk about women's basketball right now. I'm just going to sort of pull some examples out of, out of thin air. Like, let's say there is a running shoe brand that there's not a huge incentive to pair with the men's NCAA tournament because maybe there's a cross training element there, but like a six or Saucony has much more of a reason to pair with the track championships or the gymnastics championships. Maybe there's a leotard company, like a leotard company has no reason to market at the NCAA men's or women's basketball championship.
- [26:22]
Zena Kada
Right, right.
- [26:24]
Chantelle Jennings
But there's a huge incentive to promote itself at the gymnastics championships. So there's sort of these other groups, other companies that want to spend money, that are willing to spend money, but they just don't have the amount of money required to hit the threshold to become a corporate partner under the current model as it sits. And so as I've talked with coaches, they say, you know, if, if the NCAA could negotiate with CBS and Turner Sports to open this third level, you know, that would exist. But as it sits right now, like, CBS has no reason to be interested in a smaller amount of money from a gymnastics leotard company because it's not serving them. It's serving a sport that they don't even broadcast. And so that's sort of the big hold up here, is that you're asking. Essentially, the NCAA is trying to negotiate with CBS to do something that's not actually going to benefit CBS and Turner Sports's bottom line. And so they're going to have to find a middle ground because I really think this third tier of partnerships is what could truly unlock so much money for not only women's basketball, but the other 39 sports in this package.
- [27:34]
Zena Kada
A thousand percent and one. I stand corrected. I did not know the NCAA had a league of, like, marquee partners. I did know about AT&T coca Cola. But I didn't realize that they call themselves, like you said, the corporate champions. Yeah. Okay, cool. Now, absolutely right. When it comes to having more direct and directed types of brands at particularly women's sports, I was immediately, as you're thinking of, like, shoes that could have gone to the. The track championship, thinking of Allison Felix's brand, Sash, and I was like, oh, like that makes complete sense for that to show up at the track championships or even just be marketed towards any of those championships, because they know that a lot of the viewers are going to be women and they know that that's going to be something that they're like, huh, this is a little different than a Nike. This is a little bit different than, you know, the average shoe. And I like the ones that you mentioned, Asics and Saccony, like, great, great examples there. But there are even more kind of niche brands that very much are within the. The realm of what you would want to show these types of viewers and the eyeballs that you know you're going to get at these championships. There's also the aspect of. I loved the campaign a few years ago with the Olympics of the mom campaign. I think it was tied or one of, like, think about the moms at these tournaments and think, you know, just, just. And the moms that are also like retired athletes. There's just so many different demographics that you can really hit that probably CBS and Turner Sports aren't thinking to have as a large target demographic. Yeah, I'd be very curious.
- [29:14]
Chantelle Jennings
They don't need to.
- [29:15]
Zena Kada
They don't need to. Exactly. They aren't thinking for it because they don't need to. But this could be a really lucrative, like, niche and targeted opportunity for these businesses because. Yeah. And you think about who's spending the money on all these things. I know my mom was. Hell. She was. Tells me every day how expensive I.
- [29:38]
Chantelle Jennings
Was as a child within these sports. It's just that there are so many. Every sport is so different. So to think that the same corporate sponsorships that are interested in men's basketball are also interested in men's gymnastics, are also interested in women's swimming and diving. There are all these different groups and companies and brands that want to spend money on these championships that would want to get in, but there is a route, but the threshold to get in is just a lot higher than most companies can afford. And again, if you are a smaller business that has a desire to, you know, you make a certain kind of hockey stick or something. Right. There's just all of these opportunities. And at the end of the day, what moves college sports forward is money. Like, that's why we see coaches get these huge contracts. That's why we're seeing nil money flow in, like, all of these groups. If there's any sort of an argument to make that hasn't been made for this third tier, it's the nil money. Like all of these collectives and all of these other companies that are specifically investing in woman athletes, like, those are the same companies that would probably want to invest in the championships for those athletes, but there's just not that lane right now. And. And it could be there, but the NCAA and CBS just sort of need to get to that point and hopefully for the sake of all of these sports, that happens before 2032.
- [30:58]
Zena Kada
Yeah. Most corporate partnerships, teams across the world of sports have the mantra less is more. So they want to be able to make as, you know, maximize as much capital as possible through less corporate partners. And when they think about the less corporate partners that they want to attack, they want corporate partners that scale in terms of the demographics that they reach or could reach. And so it makes sense that they've approached this this way. It still is a missed opportunity, though, because whether it's finding a tier that can be vendors at the events. Right. Or finding a tier that can just be a part of the gift package or whatever it is, they don't necessarily need to be commercials like advertisement partners or, you know, get particular signage or whatever throughout the game. Yeah, there's definitely ways to block this off, to get more brands involved and allow the people that are watching this feel even more connected by what they're being like, what they're receiving in terms of brands being marketed to them.
- [31:58]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, and you even just think about the live events themselves. The Final Four drew record attendance last year. The potential for activations on site. You know, there was so much going on outside of the arena. You know, even just having a brand that. That, you know, maybe they don't, like you said, want to pay for a commercial or have the money to pay for a commercial. But if there can be an activation with the student athletes or with the fans or whomever, you know, these are all things that are really valuable. And I think we're seeing people who want to spend money on women's sports right now. And again, whether it's consumers, whether it's brands, finding routes for that money to funnel into women's sports. And, you know, ultimately, that's on the NCAA right now.
- [32:41]
Zena Kada
I think it'd actually be pretty impressive if I went to a women's basketball game and I go in and I'm seeing someone that's got a particular type of headband that looks like what the players wear on the court or even. I've said this before, and I'll say it again, if a makeup brand showed up there and taught me how to do sweatproof makeup. Oh, take my money, take my money, take my money. Because I sweat even when it's not basketball. So I would love that. But, yeah, I think it'd be really cool to be very targeted in that way. This is fascinating and we're going to see, like you said, the coaches haven't made their statements just yet. They're still reviewing it all and such. But I'm very, very excited to see how this develops and how this is received within the world of women's basketball and then also women's sports in general. We're going to hear a lot of commentary from around the leagues about this, but right now, still very fresh news. And more than anything, I think it is an indication and an affirmation women's sports is on the rise. And that's a good thing. At the end of the day, that is a good thing. So I'm excited to, to see where it goes and how it unfolds. But, yeah, eight years. Eight years is a long time. We'll see what happens. Now, before we go, I gotta switch topics a little bit and I want to go off the script. Chantelle, don't go anywhere because I'm including you in this off the script. So don't know if you guys saw it. You probably did. You probably got involved in the Twitterverse conversations, probably read a few threads, commented yourself, liked certain things that supported or went against this statement. But you might have seen ESPN legend, ESPN great Mike Wilbon on Pardon the Interruption, talking about this whole conversation that continues to be a thing about nil deals and then going pro, particularly in the world of women's basketball. And this conversation, you can go see the comments that he made, but conversation was tied to Caitlin Clark particularly, and will she, you know, essentially still make amount of money that she is making right now off of nil once she graduates and goes into the league. Now, now, when I saw this, I was like, okay, we've had this conversation, like, as a, as a collective people, we've all had this conversation way too many times. No, the answer is no. The money will not stop flowing just because people graduate. Okay? People don't stop being a brand of excellent basketball or just being a person that people find personable or people want to relate to or whatever, just because they graduate, that doesn't stop. It just shifts. It might go to a new market, it might get to bigger brands. It might whatever. But it doesn't just stop. So let's just put that out there. But there were other comments that he made in reference to, you know, what women's players should do and all these other things. I sent this to our writers that cover women's basketball, and I was like, should we talk about this? Should we have our own discussion? And the ultimate consensus was yes. And, Chantel, you're the perfect person for me to be talking to about this because you already wrote about it. You've been written about this, You've covered this, you've done. It's just like it's in the past for you. But I do have to ask you to dig it back up because I want us to have our own statement out there, not only in your writing, but also verbally. So, Chantel, tell us what you wrote about in your article.
- [36:19]
Chantelle Jennings
I mean, I think it's just people should inform themselves before they say something on tv, maybe. And I think with this specifically, it just sort of of regurgitates this really tired old narrative that, like, the WNBA doesn't make money. And listen, there's a lot of points to make. Like, if someone wants to talk about WNBA salaries not being high enough, that is a legitimate conversation to have. Not within the context of this, not within the context of nil, but in terms of the CBA or other marketing opportunities for women in the league. But, like, this is not the conversation to have around it. And so I think I just come back to the fact of, like, do people not know what NIL stands for? Name, image and likeness? Like, do Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and juju Watkins. Does their name, image, or likeness change when they leave their college and go to the wnba? Like, no, it doesn't. And when I wrote about this, if I'm, you know, it's been a little bit since I wrote about it, but there is a group of athletes where in the realm of possibility, you know, their NIL deals because of collectives at their university might be higher than what they would make in the pros. This is not the athlete that we're talking about. They were not talking about sort of the middle tier on the really good teams. Right? Like, that's not who ESPN is talking about. They're talking about the Caitlin Clarks, Angel Reese's, Juju walking Paige Beckers of the world. Right. Like, within this conversation specifically, it was Caitlin. But I think we can all sort of put players in that bubble together. And so these players, when they go to the league, will their salaries be lower than people want to see? Yes. Do I expect brands like State Farm to drop them? Gatorade, Nike? No. You know, they're not going anywhere. They chose to make an investment in a young female athlete as she was transitioning from college to the pros. Like, there is a plan here, right?
- [38:21]
Zena Kada
Exactly. There is a plan here. And you know what's so funny is, I mean, the fact that the segment started with Tony Kornheiser, who was, you know, on Pardon the Interruption with Mike Wilbon, another ESPN legend and great. But they are not well versed in, I would say, the world of women's basketball. And I'm not saying that just in the sense of I've watched every single episode and I'm making that conclusion. I am saying that based on the comments that they made most recently. But starting the segment with, I am probably speaking stupidity here when I say this. I appreciate the disclaimer. Don't say it then. You know, let's just like. Let's just all, like, move away when we start something with this is probably a stupid question. Or as I'm speaking with stupidity, it's like, what in the world? But there were other elements that they talked about. And I know Sabrina Merchant mentioned this when we were texting about it, but like Coinheiser mentioned, she should apply for a grad year and play again. And one, this is out of touch because Covid years are real. So she's there. She can use a Covid year. And also, like, so she wouldn't need to do that. And also, like, the men's side. And this is what Sabrina was saying. Like, the men's side is in the same boat. Like, when you look at, particularly with Iowa, if you want to take the Caitlin Clark example, Iowa men's basketball is not doing as well as Iowa women's basketball. And the main reason is Caitlin Clark. So if you think that it's Iowa that is adding to this draw and she needs to apply for a grad year to stay at Iowa in order to keep making this money. Like, no, no, no. It's Caitlin. It's Caitlin that's making this money, that wherever she goes, the money will go. And that's no shade to Iowa's women's basketball team. That's just facts, right? Like, that's just what it is. Their ticket is a hotter ticket than the men's side. And so it's got nothing to do with if you applied again or grad year? No, no. Because there's no one on the men's side doing this. What she's doing. And that argument is silly. That's number one on that one. But I wanted to find out, like, when these type of things are said, Chantelle, in the world of media, like. Like, you call them out maybe on Twitter or X or whatever it is, but, like, what happens in the minds of these big media outlets? Like, why do they allow this message to continue to be said, especially by people that are being listened to by large, large amounts of people that probably don't know much about women's basketball?
- [40:50]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I don't know if I'm the right person to answer that question. I think it's a good question to ask. I just. I've never been in those rooms before making those decisions. I would say for me, personally, like. Like, I saw it. I didn't retweet it. You know, there's a lot of people that say ignorant things about women's sports and women's basketball.
- [41:06]
Zena Kada
That's true.
- [41:06]
Chantelle Jennings
My general approach, and I'm not saying it's the right approach, just. Just sort of how I've learned to exist in a pretty toxic social media world is that I don't retweet it because it's just sort of promoting that in a way, it's just sort of spreading it. And I think there are a lot of good ways to sort of. A lot of people responded and sort of negated the things that were said within their tweet. I think that's a really great response, too. For me personally, I normally don't tweet it. I think probably covering college football as a woman for a decade taught me to don't feed the trolls. And so you just sort of keep on going, keep on keeping on. And so, you know, I saw it, I rolled my eyes. I went on with my day. These people exist in the world.
- [41:49]
Zena Kada
It's real. It's real. And maybe I got to take that lesson, see it, roll my eyes, and move on with my day. But I did want to address it here on the Athletic Women's Basketball show. So, Chantelle, thank you for addressing it with me. And if you haven't gone, if you still are last to the party and don't know what's going on in terms of being able to make money as a women's basketball player, college or in the W. Go read Chantel's piece. She breaks it down very beautifully. And also, was it a year ago that you wrote that?
- [42:19]
Chantelle Jennings
I think so. It was after, after the NCAA tournament. So like eight months but still there you go.
- [42:26]
Zena Kada
It's been a minute and she's already still breaking this down in the past. So that means this topic is old. On that note, I am moving on. Appreciate you guys joining us today on the show. Make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We are excited for conference play in the ncaa, so we'll be covering that. More guests coming this year. Again, happy New Year. Hope all of you all enter the year with some solid resolutions and we'll be here to support you. I hope one of those resolutions was learning more about women's basketball because you know, that's what we want you to do. So for the athletic, I'm Zena Kada and along with Chantelle Jennings, thanking you for joining us, encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game of women's basketball because that's the only way we're going to continue to grow it. All right, folks, until next time.
- [43:24]
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- [44:43]
Zena Kada
Acast Powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [44:51]
Marc Maron
Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. Does she just look at me? Because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal. Yeah. I go, sorry, I. I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
- [45:12]
Zena Kada
Are you afraid of it?
- [45:13]
Marc Maron
Of death?
- [45:14]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, I don't.
- [45:15]
Marc Maron
I think about it all the time.
- [45:16]
Zena Kada
How are we here already?
- [45:18]
Marc Maron
Listen to WTF with Mark Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF US.
- [45:33]
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- [45:40]
Chantelle Jennings
Com.