← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Opening Night Reactions And A Look At The Overall Growth In The WNBA
00:50:52
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- [00:00]
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- [01:38]
Zena Keda
There to watch them.
- [01:39]
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- [04:51]
Zena Keda
For the athletic I'm Zena Keda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Are all of you awake? Y'all are good because it was a late night of WNBA hoops. I'm happy you guys are back here to join us. We're here to talk all things women's basketball again. If you're a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the game or you're a casual fan that just learned who Dejuana Bonner is, that is okay. Make sure to subscribe to this pod so you can keep learning. More names, more records being broken. All of the above, as we go through this WNBA season. And make sure you subscribe to the Athletic, because we got a lot of coverage that you don't want to miss out on. I'm joined again by Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. Guys, last night was a lot of fun. A lot of anticipation built up around this, this year. I remember, like, watching the welcome to the W commercials leading up into this season and I was like, ooh, like even the marketing's on point this season. Just getting ready for the year and everything that's to come with it. And games kicked off and they did not disappoint. I think a lot of people were tuned in. There was a lot going on last night too. Big baseball games, obviously NBA finals. I mean, not Finals, but playoffs were still going as well, yet I think ratings did pretty well. Sabrina, what do you know about, you know, how many people tuned in and where that landed out?
- [06:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So the game between Indiana and Connecticut was the first part of a doubleheader on ESPN2. And they had 2.12 million people watching at its peak, which, if you recall, the WNBA finals last year did not even hit the seven figure mark. So 2.12 is a very big number. It is the most that have ever watched a WNBA game since 2003, I want to say. And if you look at like the top 10 lists of WNBA games, they're all on NBC. So when you think about not a. This is a cable channel, right? Like, not a total, just available to everyone channel, um, ESPN2, not even just ESPN. So this is, this is a huge number. Um, as has been the case for a lot of Caitlin Clark moments over the past year or so. So not surprising, but also just super cool to see that many people tuning in, watching Caitlin Clark, potentially watching the Connecticut sun and Alyssa Thomas and Dewana Bonner and Dijonay Carrington for the first time. So, yeah, just great to see so many eyes continuing this women's basketball moment.
- [07:36]
Zena Keda
Oh, my God. I'm trying to think back. 2003. Diana Taurasi came in the next year.
- [07:43]
Sabrina Merchant
2004. Yeah.
- [07:45]
Zena Keda
And Sue Bird was the year before that, right?
- [07:47]
Sabrina Merchant
Correct.
- [07:48]
Zena Keda
She was dropped in 2002. So. Babies. This is like when you think about some of the legends that we've just seen retire or still playing, like the names that have really built up this league and we've grown up with. That's the last time people were tuned in. That's the last time the WNBA was like, @ the top of their game. And last night, revival, like, complete resurgence. What do you? What would you think? I mean, other than. Of course, a lot of people tuned in into Caitlin Clark, of course. But for you, looking at the peripheral programming and promotion and everything that was going on around the start of this, like, are you surprised by this number or is this on par for the way that the W has been preparing for people to tune in for this game?
- [08:34]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, what's interesting is this is even less than the number of people who watch the WNBA draft. Right. Like, correct me if I'm wrong, Ben, I think topped out at like 2.4 million. So this is just like what's par for the course at this point? You know, when we're talking about this draft class and the level of interest in the sport, whether that's at the college level or the WNBA level, I am very excited to see. I feel like I'm Richard Deitch here just thinking about all these numbers, but I am very excited to see what the ABC broadcast on Saturday looks like because again, that's a national channel that's available to everyone. The Indiana Fever will be playing the New York Liberty. So another high profile game with the last two number one draft picks in Indiana and then the Liberty with Brianna Stewart, Sabrina Escuinaj, Elainey, everybody who, you know, advanced to the WNBA finals a year ago. I did, like, look up the top 10 games like that have occurred in WNB history in terms of ratings. And the most highly viewed of all time was the very first game between the Liberty and the Sparks in 1997, and that was 5.04 million people. I would love to see WNBA try to challenge that at some point this year. You know, maybe, maybe that's overly ambitious. But the more we're talking about the league, like you said, all those commercials that were running during the NCAA tournament getting people excited for the WNBA season, I think, like, we're genuinely seeing that transition of college fans to pro fans. That just hasn't happened in the past. I mean, you mentioned people learning about Dewana. Bonner. Like, we've seen the Pat McAfee clip where he's talking about how somebody even entered like fifth place in the total scoring list last night. And that's, that's cool to me that people are like, ideally you would want to know who Dwana Bonner was before she got to fifth. But like, hey, she could get all the way to second this season. And if you're following her from fifth to second, that's still a pretty cool journey to be on. So I'm just really happy for everybody. That like, got to watch and presumably enjoyed. Cause there were some really great games last night. And just excited that we get to be part of this journey, covering it too.
- [10:17]
Zena Keda
I agree. And this could be someone's like, origin story, right? Like learning who Djuanna Bonner is and that she just entered top five and now she could be all the way up to top two. Like, that could be the. This is when I fell in love with wnba. And that's really exciting and really, really cool for me. Sitting at home watching on my couch, I literally up my big tv, brought down a small TV to make sure I could catch both games. At one point, you know, the rest of the people in the house, my boyfriend was like, I need to watch an NBA game. I was like, you can get the small tv. We're keeping W on the big tv. But it was a lot of fun at home. I was talking to them like I was a coach, someone's mom, maybe, like, you know, telling people to rebound or go around screens. But Ben, you were there in person. You got to be at the Indiana Connecticut game. That also, you know, we're talking about Dwana Bonner, talking about history being made. Alyssa Thomas starting the season with another triple double. And particularly I want to know about the atmosphere in the building because there were a lot of people there to see a certain cc. Tell me what it was like when you were in Uncasville.
- [11:24]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I spent all day on Tuesday at the Mohegan Sun Casino. No, I was not gambling. No money was lost. But from shoot around to working basically in the space throughout the afternoon to just go into the game at night, I did not leave the casino at one time for one, not even a single second during the day and through the afternoon. It was really interesting as I'm just like working on some other stories. You saw just like fans start to trickle in, you know, a lot wearing Caitlin Clark Fever shirts. I'm wearing Caitlin Clark Iowa shirts, Connecticut sun sweatshirts, season ticket holders. Like, we're talking two, three o'clock in the afternoon. People at shops, at restaurants, like, you could sense the excitement of like, the anticipation of this game taking place. Arena doors didn't open till, I want to say it was like 5:30 in the evening. And there was already like a huge group of fans that had just kind of gathered. Often a lot of like parents with young children gathered outside of the stadium entrance, I guess, or, you know, the entrance to the arena in the casino. It's all under one roof. And there were so many people that were gathered you could just sense the excitement. One of the things that really jumped out was, you know, this was the Connecticut Sun's first home sellout since 2003 for their home opening game, which was actually their first home opener of their first inaugural season way back when. So. And all these fans really showed up early. Like, you know, an hour before the game, the arena might have been, you know, 2/3 full. It was 3/4 full, a half hour, 10 minutes before the game. Like I said to Vinyo out there were almost no open seats still left. Like, people came early. They were attentive. One of the coolest moments pre game was at the Indiana Fever. On their game op side. They did this promotion called, like. They thanked Indiana Fever fans for coming, basically, and, like, welcomed them. But they did so with, like, a cute nod where they did a graphic on the screen that they called the Bandwagon Cam, where it said, like, you know, thank you to all the loyal Indiana fever fans since 2024 for showing up. And they just showed fans wearing their number 22 fever and number 22 Iowa shirts. And they had, like, a PA who was, like, orchestrating the whole night be like, oh, you're a fan. Looks like you just got that, oh, I see the tag on that shirt still. Or like, you know, wait, like, no stains on that jersey. Like, that jersey looks like it fits you really well and is new. Like, just poking fun at all those new fans who are in the arena. Then, of course, the game started, and, you know, the energy was really palpable. You know, obviously, I think it was still a pro Connecticut sun crowd, but when Caitlin Clark's name was announced in introductions, the PA Just kind of snuck it in. She was the second name of the five announced, and it was like, oh, there's Caitlin Clark suddenly been announced. And people kind of belatedly let out this big roar because they were expecting her to be later in the lineup call. And then Connecticut sun fans really did. Like, every time she picked up a foul, they cheered. You know, there were moments when she struggled. They cheered. When she then started to succeed a little bit more and hit some threes in the second half, the fans who were supporting her were really supportive and cheered. So it was a really great crowd. We can certainly get into the basketball and how she looked, how the Connecticut sun looked, too, but a great atmosphere on opening night of the season. I was not one of those millions of people to watch. I had no screens in front of.
- [14:33]
Zena Keda
Me for what, hey, you got to watch the real thing in action, which is super super cool. Also, for those of you that are still new to this space, there's a fun fact that I recently learned. So I always remembered the Miami Soul being the WNBA team that was down in South Florida. I did not know that there was also another South Florida team called the Orlando miracle. And in 2003, when that the ownership group of that Orlando Miracle team that was tied to the Orlando Magic had some financial strains going on, the Mohegan Indian Tribe stepped in to buy the team and they became the first Native American team to actually buy a sports franchise within this league. And so that was actually, was actually the first time that a Native American tribe had owned a professional sports franchise ever in 2003. So I thought that was really, really cool just knowing a little bit of that history. But yeah, let's get into the game. The like, let's go. Because that game was so good, at least to start first. Dijonay Carrington. Ty Harris coming into the starting lineup, obviously Tip Hayes leaving in the offseason, retiring essentially in the off season. Rebecca Allen going over to the Phoenix Mercury being traded. It was very interesting to see Dijonay Carrington, which who was known for being that like, spurt of defense off the bench. She would come in and just cause a lot of commotion off the bench. Now having to be one of the players that was on the floor for the majority of the game, having to watch her fouls, having to watch, you know, how diligent she could be on defense without being too aggressive and staying on the floor. Now I ain't gonna lie, when the game started, Dijonay was putting up a lot of shots. At one point, I think it was like 21 shots I put up by the whole team. And she had six of them, more than dejuana Bonner. And I was like, is this the right count? Is this the right breakdown I'm looking for? But I liked her aggressiveness and it definitely paid out. Got quite a few buckets at the basket. Also was able to find her shot outside. And then there was Tyosha Harris. Ty. Ty T Y was shooting from three like it was. I mean, yes, she is quite literally paid to do this, but man, like it was beautiful her being able, particularly in the first half, just being able to find her shot flowing within that offense. And all of the all around Connecticut defense has not dropped. They've had some personnel changes, but did not drop. Let's break this game down. Overall, Connecticut sun able to win over the Indiana fever 92 to 71. If you look at that Final score. You would have thought, oh, man, that was a blowout from the start. And it wasn't. It wasn't. It was a true fought battle. Sabrina, I'll go to you. I love. I love your X's and O's. One thing that Stephanie White did so well was come up with a defensive scheme, particularly around Caitlin Clark. And I love that Carolyn Peck called out the fact that she's a Big Ten analyst and she's also the head coach of the Connecticut Sun. And getting to watch Caitlin Clark up close and personal for an entire college season, she got to see exactly what needed to happen. And I felt like she did a great job putting Dijonay Carrington on her and then also sometimes calling the blitz on Caitlin Clark. What do you think of the defensive scheme for the Sun?
- [18:11]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, it's interesting. We've talked a lot about how Clark's game would translate from college to the pros, and we thought her passing would be like a one differentiator for her because, yeah, you know, it's gonna be harder to score against these defenses, but she has such a good feel for the game and reads the floor really well. And Stephanie White was like, okay, we're gonna take away the passing. Like, we're gonna bring up the hedges, we're gonna put two on the ball really quickly. We're gonna make it really hard for her to move the ball. And I thought that was just such a great idea because, you know, it's just making Clark more and more uncomfortable as the game goes along because the shooting is going to wax and wane. Like, sometimes her threes went in later in the game. They did, you know, earlier. It was not happening, but, like, she just couldn't get her feel as a point guard because of the traps that they were sending. Just. And you think about the traps that are coming out of Connecticut, like, these are not small players like Dewana Bonner, 6 foot 4, Alyssa Thomas as a perennial defensive player of the year candidate. And you have Brie Jones, who's another like 6, 4, 65 center and that size coming at Caitlin on the perimeter. Really hard for her to deal with. I thought you could see that Indiana is a team that has not played together much because they just didn't have their spacing right in terms of who could come up and give her an outlet, like, to get out of that. That's why you saw so many of those turnovers. I just. I love the defensive game plan from Stephanie White. My favorite part was, like, this one sequence where Dijonay had a steal and score and she's like, you know, yamming up to the crowd and like, super hyped. And you just see Stephanie White smiling behind her as the game heads to timeout and it's like, yes, this is what she wanted to showc and this is exactly what Connecticut was able to deliver.
- [19:37]
Ben Pickman
One of the other things to know about their defensive game plan, I'm glad you mentioned the Stephanie White connection. Was one of the assistants on the Connecticut sun staff who was really integral in putting that game plan together was Bri January. She's been with Connecticut the past two years. In Bri January, I talked to her after shoot around on Tuesday morning. You know, she was with the Indiana Fever, I believe it was, for eight years. She won the WNBA championship with them in 2012. She was an All Star. She made five defensive teams for her career. You know, one of the best defensive players overall and a player who, you know, has such fondness for Indiana. Like we were talking on Tuesday, as I said, just about like the city and what it means for her to see the growth and like, it's still, it was so clear, like, how much it still means for her thinking back to the championship, the fan base, like, how great she thinks it was, how happy she is to see them continuing to grow, how Indianapolis is such a sports town and like, you know, just her excitement for the direction of the franchise. She did say, like, you know, she roots for them all the time except for when they play Connecticut. And when they play Connecticut, we talked about the game plan and like, you know, she was talking about how important it was right from the start that they, you know, didn't give Caitlin Clark space, that they had to take her up, pick her up right after half court, that they were physical. All the things you kind of expect from the Connecticut sun. And it seems like they really did execute everything that they wanted to do from pretty much the beginning of the game. And I like Xena, that you started this episode by recognizing the welcome to the W ads because, you know, Caitlin Clark right away was welcomed to the W by Alyssa Thomas. You know, is there any better of an introduction than like to pick up a foul With Alyssa Thomas coming at you in transition, that is like the sign that you are going from college to the pros. When you have, you know, the engine, as they call her, Alyssa Thomas, just the 6 foot 2 forward, do everything forward. Coming at you in transition, it's like you're forced to make a decision. Clark kind of picked up a cheap reach and foul and you know, suddenly her professional career was off and running. So yeah, the Connecticut sun really did execute everything that they wanted to do. It seemed like on Tuesday night.
- [21:36]
Zena Keda
Yeah, Brianne January doesn't get enough credit. I still remember when she retired is at the same time that Sue Bird retired both of them from the Seattle Storm. And I remember it kind of being like a footnote, like Stewart's retiring and it was this huge fanfare and then pre January she's retiring too. It's like no, like ASU Arizona State standout again like you said, champion with the fever 2012 and a really smart guard. Seattle Storm often Jewel Lloyd talks about, you know, Brie January being a really great mentor for her at the point guard position. And that's super quiet. I did not know that story that she was involved in that, that scheme. Now talk about come life's come to at you fast. Okay. And I don't think, I don't know what's what's faster. Bree Jones on the hedge when you're trying to come off a screen for Caitlin Clark or yeah, Alyssa Thomas coming at you, getting a rebound from one side of the court, coming down the other way and getting to the basket. She ended up with a triple double yesterday. I loved her post game interview with Holly Rose saying people are going to think this is a fluke and I'm paraphrasing here, but people think are going to think this is a fluke, but this is what I do. This is who I am. And if you've never seen Alyssa Thomas before, which I'm sure there are many fans last night that were brand new to this space and did not know who Alyssa Thomas was, don't worry folks, that triple double thing is not a fluke. When they said that she's had nine and the rest of the WNBA has had 21. The rest of. I'm going to say that one more time, the rest of the WNBA has had 21. Not a fluke. I don't know what's more impressive though. Dejuana Bonner's performance and her getting fifth, scoring fifth all time on the scoring list or Alyssa Thomas triple double. What would y'all say?
- [23:29]
Sabrina Merchant
I don't know. I mean I feel like Alyssa Thomas triple double is so routine at this point that I'm more impressed with Duanna Bonner getting to fifth all time, passing Candace Dupree in the process, which I'm a little disappointed in the broadcast for making no mention of Dewana Botter and Candice Priest's personal history. But Hello, Crazy.
- [23:44]
Zena Keda
I know. Sabrina, would you like to elaborate or would we want to encourage our fans to go read?
- [23:50]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, they share, you know, twins together. The twins that Dewana Bonner was shouting out at the end of the broadcast when she was, you know, talking to Holly Row about this anticipation in her career. And you go from that to talking to Alyssa Thomas, Dewana Bonner's current Beyonce, about her record, which is. It's such good content.
- [24:05]
Zena Keda
It's so good. Like, guys, one thing you gotta know about the W, there's like a layer of information and the face level of the W, and then there's just layers to this. Okay? There are relationships. There are past coaching. There are past personal relationships. There's friendships, There's. I mean, there's siblings. There's everything. There is drama in the W. It's so good. We are an upstanding and professional publications, so we won't go into too deep of the drama. But, you know, follow me on Twitter if you want to kiki with me. Anywho, keep going.
- [24:40]
Sabrina Merchant
I think Ben can answer now. Which one was more surprising to you?
- [24:42]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think you have to think about the career longevity of Dewana Bonner as the thing that was more impressive. And the night, I think, was far more about her. And it was really cool to kind of see the crowd embrace her. You know, she threw up, like, a heart sign with her hands. They really gave her a standing ovation. And you could see, like, she was very, like, visibly touched by the ovation she received from the fan base. And one of the things that was so cool about it was you kind of saw, like, within a few moments, just like, the. The spectrum of what it is like to be a professional athlete, because they acknowledged her at the end of a timeout late in the third quarter, I believe, right after she had set the record. And as the game went to timeout, it had basically followed an Indian A run by the Connecticut sun that included her basket and then ended with a basket from Melissa Thomas. And the sun called timeout. They've the fever called timeout. Rather, Connecticut has stretched its lead back to 12, and Bonner let out, like, a big scream. Like, she, like, flexed and kind of let out a scream and like, found her space across from the Connecticut bench and, like, you know, had this, like, very intense release of emotion, just, like, competitive emotion. And then two minutes later, coming out of the timeout, you saw this, like, really heartfelt reaction because they had then shouted her out for the record. So it was, like, such a quick Swing of emotions in a like two minute span. That was really, really cool. And you could see, you know, so many people really acknowledged her and showed her some love on the game broadcast in the arena, rather post game as well. Yeah. Alyssa Thomas, you know, it's not a fluke. People want to continue to say it's not a fluke. Stephanie White, one of the things she said she was most excited about heading into the game was to show the national audience, show the world, really, everyone tuning in that, like, this is Alyssa Thomas. Like, you might be here for Caitlin Clark, you might be here to watch the Indiana Fever, but like, you're going to come away and know that Alyssa Thomas is one of the three best players in the world, that she's going to do everything you want in on offense and transition on the glass. And then late in the fourth quarter, you know, she stepped up the plate, guarded Caitlin Clark for a bunch of possessions. Like, that's a welcome to the WNBA moment as well. Right? Like, she stepped up to that challenge and did a really good job as well. So, you know, impressive performances by both and I'm sure both will remember for a very long time.
- [27:05]
Zena Keda
Oh, such a big softy. I love. I loved the conversation that Djewanna Bonner and I had on this pod. And she talked about wanting to be more known. She wants her story more known. She wants the accomplishments that she's had. There's a lot of people that don't know who she is because she came out and was dominant before the advent of social media, before there was a space in which that information about how great she was could be so easily disseminated. So it is cool to see her still getting her flowers in the midst, and it's really cool to see her so dominant at this, at this stage in her career. I will say, though, I don't know what y'all thought about this before we close this part out. That first bucket, Caitlin Clark's first bucket. I don't know if you guys remember, she drove on Dejuana Bar. I felt like Duanna Bonner said olay and opened up her arms and let her, let her score. And I was like, in my mind, I was like, is she just giving her the bucket because she's, you know. No, she's too competitive for that. I don't know. I have thoughts about that. Y'all let me know what you guys think about how Cece got her first bucket.
- [28:12]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think we should also acknowledge before we move on from this game, like, this was kind of not that surprising of a performance by Caitlin Clark. Right. Overall, like the Connecticut sun, third best team in the league last year, second best defense. A veteran team, a physical team, an experienced team. You know, Caitlin, in the end the 20 points looks really nice and she certainly had to work for it. But this is a game and she talked about it after like there's a lot to grow, there's a lot to learn from this game. The 10 turnovers, the most ever for a rookie in their WNB debut, obviously not something she wants to replicate. I think she had double digit turnovers just three times throughout her whole college career. You know, Christie Sides kind of acknowledged it like they got punched in the face, did the Indiana Fever and that Caitlin Clark is a rookie and they need to, you know, put her in better positions to succeed. That they didn't space the floor very well, they didn't cut off ball very well. They didn't find Aaliyah Boston for easy opportunities very well. Caitlin Clark kind of was reflective even at shoot around on Tuesday, like she was talking about some of the advice that she had received. I had actually asked her about some of that advice and she kind of volunteered that like how important again Grace is for her, that like to be shown grace and that some people think that she's going to be perfect at every moment, that she's just going to do amazing things, but that like, you know, she's not gonna have like perfect games right away or one game, you know, if she's not as amazing she wants to be, that she needs to give herself grace and to learn and to get better. There's a lot obviously to learn from, to grow from. For Caitlin Clark, I think it was just kind of a reality check. And this is what I wrote about, and I know Sabrina wrote about too on the site that like this is a reality check for Caitlin Clark and for people watching that she's not going to score 40 points on, you know, 14 to 15 shooting every single night. It's clear that she's gonna be able to light it up from deep and she's gonna have some of these nights where she does explode. But there also might be nights like this and this. The Fever play, you know, maybe the hardest schedule you can play in the WNBA to open where they're gonna play Connecticut and then the New York twice and then Connecticut again right off the top in their.
- [30:16]
Zena Keda
And then Seattle too. Yeah, right.
- [30:18]
Ben Pickman
It doesn't get easier. You throw some Las Vegas in and you like have the whole slate of the league right off the bat. So this is a tough test. A lot for her to learn from. You know, I think the Fever were disappointed in how they played, but, you know, they have another opportunity on Thursday night against celebrity back at home and what I'm sure will be a raucous crowd. So we'll see how that goes.
- [30:36]
Zena Keda
There you go. And I agree this is not a full indication of Caitlin Clark's career in terms of what that stat line looked like, but it absolutely is a full indication on what the WNBA is, which is stars that are capable of scoring the ball are not going to score it every night, and stars that were capable of scoring the ball easily in college are not going to immediately going to be able to be as productive on all aspects of the game in the. On the pro level. Right. I think about the fact that, yes, Caitlin Clark had 20 points. Jewel Lloyd, one of the best offensive players in the game right now, had 10 points last night. She was 3 of 19 in her game. That's Jewel Lloyd. This is what happens day in, day out and night in, night out in the W. And I think a lot of new fans are going to start seeing that. But let's just be real. Diana Taurasi said this. Cheryl Swoop said this. A lot of folks said this. It's not going to be an immediate transition. And all I can say is I just really hope that out of everything, I really want Caitlin Clark to work on her body language and her ability to bounce back because you could see how frustrated she was getting with herself. And I also want to call out the fact that I loved seeing Aaliyah Boston go to her going into the half and just trying to cheer her up as she was going into and pump her up as she was going into the locker room. All right, there's a lot of season left, y'all. This was just one game. And I'll say out of the other two, just to, you know, kind of wrap up on opening night. Mercury and Mystics. Excuse us. We didn't know. We didn't know what you were coming with into this season. Mystics. Shakira Austin coming back into the mix now. I was trying to figure out who coming back from whether it was injury, having a child, you know, who. Who's done it the best last year was clearly Dericka Hamby. Shakira Austin coming back off of her injury. She looked so good yesterday. She was breaking down Brianna Stewart. She was able to hit a three to go into the. To the halftime, you know, break. She looked athletic. She looked bouncy she looked alert and she had a pretty jumper going. I really, really appreciated her game. And I think that the way that the Mystics challenge the Liberty has me looking at that roster and that group a little bit different. And Ariel Atkins has really been holding it down for them over the years, but especially now with Natasha Cloud gone and Elena Deldon gone. Ariel Atkins really stepped up big in the game last night, four or two nights ago. By the time you're listening to this in the game against the Liberty, overall Mercury taking the Aces all the way to the buzzer behind Diana Taurasi's what, seven threes. And the Mystics doing what they did to the Liberty. I'm like, this is going to be one fun season. The growth of the WNBA is obviously in viewership. The growth is obviously in support and all the above, but the growth is tremendous on the court, too. Out of those games that you were able to catch, Sabrina, because I know. I think you and I were able to catch the same ones. Whose performance against the contending teams, whether the Liberty and the Aces, between the Mercury or the Mystics, which performance was most exciting for you?
- [34:08]
Sabrina Merchant
I would say the Mercury. You know, the Mystics have this defensive infrastructure, obviously Natasha Cloud a huge part of that last year, but just going from Mike Tebow to Eric Thibault, like, they've just been a really good defensive team for a few years now. And they're familiar with the New York Liberty, obviously having played them in the playoffs and quite a bit down the stretch of last regular season. So for them to perform like that wasn't altogether surprising. Like, Eric Thibault knows how to game plan for this particular New York Liberty team. But for the Mercury to go into Las Vegas on ring night, new head coach, no. Brittney Griner, you're basically playing a lineup with Natasha Mack, who is a WNBA rookie, essentially at your starting center, asking her to guard Asia Wilson, which great. And then playing a lineup with Becca Allen as your backup center, you know, for large stretches of the game. I just thought what the Mercury were able to do stylistically was really interesting. Like they obviously brought in a coach who has a lot of NBA experience. And Christy Toliver has coached in the NBA too, and she's the lead assistant on that Phoenix staff. Like, it just, it looked like an NBA offense to me. Just the way they were using a lot of guard. Guard actions on the perimeter, obviously, the high volume of threes, the. The pacing, all the zone and the way they were defending. It was just really interesting to watch and I know Becky Hammond was expecting that considering she also has an NBA background, having come into the WNBA and talked about that pre game. But yeah, I just thought that Phoenix, I was concerned about their ability to defend their ability to rebound. Vegas still put up 89 points, but a lot of that was from a pretty terrible first quarter by Phoenix's standards. And they rebounded evenly with Vegas, which I thought was a big win for them. So yeah, I think, you know, Washington playing relatively even with New York is obviously a good sign, but it was at home and I just don't think it portends like as much upside as potentially we could see from Phoenix once they get Griner back and are able to address like you know, some of the size and just like defending in the paint concerns that propped up during this particular game.
- [36:05]
Zena Keda
Yeah, I'd agree with you and that that's a really good point about the fact that this was also ring night. This could have been something seriously upsetting if they were able to have gotten the win going into the half. Aces couldn't hit the side of a barn from three. It was bad. And I was like about to say, you know what, maybe, maybe this could be their weakness. And then they came out in the second half and just started throwing things up and only finding net. It was amazing. But Phoenix Mercury, I'm looking at if Brittney Griner comes back, maybe some doors are safe in the midst of Diana Taurasi. She was pissed after that win. I mean that loss. And I don't know if you guys saw her slam some random cabinet door in the back. I just feel like every door that's in her way after a loss is just terrified. But yeah, Brittany Griner coming back obviously adds some, some length. I wanted to ask either of you, Natasha Mack, like you were saying that this is technically like her rookie year, but she was chosen back in 2021. What's the reasoning as to why she's basically like a rookie?
- [37:11]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, like a lot of high profile college players, she didn't make a roster out of the WNBA draft in 2021. So, you know, just working to get her way back into the league. And we'll see a lot of those stories. Natasha Mack won. Chicago is playing tonight, but we'll have already played by the time this recording hits. You know, they've got Kaiser, OK Onrzyk and Kennedy Carter who are in their second situations as former lottery picks. If your favorite player from college doesn't make the league right away, just know that there's, there's always Hope. There's always hope that something can surface later down the road.
- [37:42]
Zena Keda
There you go. I love that. I love that. Because Kaiser Gondrezyk, I know, is someone that a lot of people were rooting for. Number four pick back in the 2020. Was it 2020 or 2021 draft? I think it was 2021. And very excited to see her game. It was really cool to just see her enjoying herself and getting back on the court in the midst of preseason. Now, Ben, you talked to Breanna Stewart, had a conversation about just the scheme of being in this position and what the goals are for this season and ultimately, you know, how the Liberty, and particularly how Brianna Stewart wants to approach getting to the top. And I looked at that Washington Mystics game and I looked at things looking a little interesting and rocky sometimes for the New York Liberty, and this story came to mind. And from your conversations with Brianna, what is it that the Liberty are hoping to put together in order to beat the Aces? Knowing that the Aces are the standard, what is it about their game that they think can take them over the top?
- [38:48]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, the Liberty have talked a lot about chemistry this training camp and preseason, just that they're going to, you know, a second year under their belt. There's an added familiarity, there's an added comfort. The players are taking on more of a leadership role. And you know, from an on court perspective, they're also hoping that, you know, that familiarity translates in knowing when someone is going to back cut, knowing, you know, how they're going to switch, knowing, you know, how they're going to space the floor on offense. Just some of these things that you don't have to call a play for. Just playing in flow and with feel that the familiarity helps in that way. You mentioned it, Xeno. Yeah, I talked to Stewie a little bit, for a little bit during training camp about, you know, not about success, but really that Briana Stewart is one of the greatest winners in women's basketball and basketball history. You know, the four titles in four years at UConn, two gold medals, two WNBA championships. She's not even 30 years old and already like a lockdown as a first ballot hall of Famer when she does eventually retire and basically, like, I was just curious, what is it like to lose? Like, what are the lessons she learned from losing? Obviously she's lost before. You know, there's been multiple years in which she did not win a championship. But this is someone who, when the lights are always brightest, she plays her best and quite frankly, she did not play her best during the finals. And she knows that she averaged just 16 points, well below her playoff average. And it was just really interesting to get, like, a little bit of a peek into how she reflected on that series and how she started to process it just as a way of how great athletes process major defeats. She started to talk and really have some conversations with a guy named Patty Steinfort, who is a mental performance consultant who has worked with, you know, the 76ers, Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid. He's worked in Major League Baseball for NFL teams. He worked with Patrick Mahomes when Mahomes was still at Texas Tech. Someone who's been, you know, around some of the greatest athletes. And, you know, they talked a lot about just processing emotion and different kinds of emotions. And, like, Stewie had a lot to work through, not only because of the finals, but because her father in law died at the beginning of October, literally on the day that New York was set to fly from New York to Las Vegas for the finals. Right after the finals, I believe it was the next week, her wife, Marta, gave birth to their second child. So those are three huge things. Grieving process, joy of a birth, the loss of a series, and the biggest moment of your professional career on the public stage that, like, she had to untangle and she had to deal with. And so they spent a lot of time, like, processing, thinking about her emotions, trying to move forward to learn from them. I invite everyone to read the story, and one of the things I thought that was most interesting, and then maybe Sabrina has a reaction, was that Stewie actually took some weeks off. And then in December, she tried to get back on the court and work out again. And, like, it just didn't feel right. She knew she wasn't ready to turn the page yet, and that it wasn't until really in January when she was in Spain and when Olaf Lang, the assistant coach for the New York Liberty, visited her, that she was able to kind of fully reset, center herself in a place like, out of the public eye. It was just a really interesting look as to how, you know, an elite athlete in this moment learns from, you know, really difficult and challenging and complicated more than anything else, feelings and things going on in their life.
- [42:25]
Zena Keda
It was incredibly interesting to get that peek behind the curtain, especially specifically about talking with someone on how to compartmentalize your emotions. And you just talked about what Duanna Bonner went through, right, in terms of getting that acclaim and feeling heartfelt around the support, around her accomplishment. And then two minutes before Having just like, let out this competitive scream of just excitement. There are so many emotions that athletes are going through all the time. And between this story that you've written about Breonna Stewart and then also, I think about aces versus everybody and them talking about what happened with Asia Wilson going through the grief of losing her former Coach and Coach McCrae. Is this something that you've heard around the women's basketball or even just professional sports in general, players having to incorporate this more psychological type of training as opposed to just physical. I'm curious, Sabrina or Ben, like, as you guys have started talking to folks, is this more and more common for people to incorporate this sort of emotional training to be just as important as their physical training?
- [43:46]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. I've done a few stories now on kind of mental health and some of talking to sports psychologists who work with teams on the professional level and also the college level. I would say two things. One, like, I think stories like this, and you cite the Asia Wilson example, are a reminder that, like, these athletes are human and deal with real stuff going on in their lives. And, you know, in the same way that you and I and anyone else, you know, might talk to a therapist or a friend or, you know, people that they trust about some of these things that, like, athletes do as well. And, and these are not to say that bad performances, these are excuses for styles of play, but really just explanations or pieces of context rather for what is going on in someone's life. More broadly to your broader question, though, Zena, about athletes working with mental health professionals and sports psychologists, one of the things, and I remember doing a story back in the fall on Lauren Betts, who had transferred from Stanford to UCLA and they work with someone on the UCLA women's basketball team. Does Corey close? I believe she told me that, like, so many athletes, for instance, work so hard on their physical conditioning, their jump shot, how they defend that, you know, one of the ways to create an edge is to really fine tune your mental acuity and how you think the game, how you process the game, how you process emotions, and that, like, there's still a lot of room to grow on the mental side. And that that is a place that, like, is still a separator and a way for teams and athletes when you think about competitive edges, not to say that you should only talk to some of these people to obtain competitive edges, but when you're thinking about, you know, untapped areas or areas that are relatively untapped or not as, like, developed, you know, a lot more programs and teams right now are pouring into that because they realize, like, that is really, really important. And if it can make our athletes just a little bit better, then it is well worth it, I will say. And then maybe Sabrina has some thoughts. Just to give a plug to a friend and a former editor and colleague of mine named Julie Kliegman. She wrote a great book that came out recently called Mind Game, which dives into a lot of these topics and talks to. She talks to a number of sports psychologists and people in this space and other athletes. It's called Mind Game. An Inside look at the Mental Health Playbook focuses on this topic in depth. So I figured I'd get that plug in.
- [46:12]
Zena Keda
There you go. I love a good reference.
- [46:15]
Sabrina Merchant
We talked about Kelsey Plum's dog class earlier on this podcast a couple weeks back. But, I mean, this is something that's been really important to her is, you know, she has her mental performance coach David Alemi, who helps her get through, you know, this barrier of like, entering WNBA as the women's college basketball all time leading scorer and then not even averaging 10 points in her first season and trying to figure out how she was going to, you know, define herself and like, reclaim her identity, even just like, as a person outside of being Kelsey Plum the scorer and how important that's been to her. And that's something that she's tried to pass on to these other players, these collegiate players who come through her camp. And like Raven Johnson has said, like, that was so important for me just to take track of my mental health and like, you know, focus on things other than basketball and just realize how important that component was in addition to the basketball, when I was, you know, embarking on Raven's revenge tour, the season that ended in that South Carolina national championship game. So you definitely see it more and more, I think, in the professional space. So Stewie's absolutely not alone in this. And I think it's really important that so many athletes are prioritizing this and publicizing it so, you know, they know that they're not alone.
- [47:20]
Zena Keda
I think that's the part that I really loved about this piece. Is there the vulnerability for her to have shared this, that it wasn't easy covering the warriors in not my previous life, my current life, but also in my other worlds. Draymond Green had a similar experience after he was suspended for his altercation with Yusuf Nurkic. He was, I guess, indeterminately, like, suspended. They weren't sure what the exact date that he could return. And in that time he mentioned he didn't touch a ball. And when he did try, it felt icky. And so when you were mentioning that about Brianna, I was like, this happens to a lot of athletes. We always assume that because these athletes are the best at what they do that they're always wanting to be around the sport. They're always wanting to be involved. And it's very rare that you hear level that level of athlete be like, I didn't want to get on the court. I think the only person that's at that level that has ever shown us like, I actually can't stand this, but I'm doing it because it's my job. The joker, Nikola Jokic is like, always like, oh, when's the parade? Okay, we're not done. I still have to do this. You know, we still have to get to the finals. We still have to. To win a championship. But, man, so it's really cool that you got to be able to talk to her about this.
- [48:45]
Ben Pickman
What was it like, Xena? Not to cite other college examples, but I remember talking a few years ago to a guy named Fred Luskin, who is known as a happiness professor at Stanford, and he worked with that team. And they had kind of a ritual that if you're taking a free throw and you're anxious about the outcome, remind yourself that you're loved. Like a very simple thing. And it maybe sounds a little cheesy to some people, but was like this really helpful refrain and reminder to players there. What was it like? And you know, I said at a UCLA example, we're talking about Stewie, Asia, Wilson, some of these, like, very high profile athletes with a lot of resources, like, what was it like for you during your playing days? Do you remember ever having these conversations? Did your team, did teammates, did friends who were also players back in your day, not that long ago kind of think about any of these things or do you feel like you've seen a big change in this space since then?
- [49:43]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. And it was. It does feel like it wasn't that long ago, but it was, it was 10 years ago, folks. I'm an old person. But anyways, it was not a resource that we had at Yale. And I think it's probably the reason that a lot of people quit in the Ivies. There's several, I would say, like, for example, my class under the coach that I had in the 10 years or so that she had been there. My class was the very first class to graduate all their incoming freshmen to the senior year. Everyone else had had someone in their class quit and the Pressure, especially, I think, you know, it's not necessarily unique to the Ivy League. I think the academic pressure on top of the athletic demand is tough, but being a student athlete in general is really hard, and people didn't handle it well. There were a lot of people that overexerted themselves and found themselves in some really tough spots mentally and then. Which translated into physical aspects. Right. You every. I don't know if there's a study on it. I'm sure there's research on it. But you're more likely to get hurt when you're not mentally there. Right. You're more likely to stumble, misstep, something when you're not there. And that happened a lot when I was in school. Mental health, I feel like, is now becoming more of a conversation. You even see NCAA commercials right now talking about how they promote mental health for their student athletes. So it's now a thing. I don't necessarily want to call it a gimmick, but you can see that a lot of colleges are prioritizing that when they talk about why you should come there and be a student athlete, because they have these resources. We didn't have, you know, whoever that professor was at ucla, we did have a happy course, and I think we actually had the first one. Dr. Laurie Santos was the founder of, like, the Happiness Lab, and it was Yale's most popular course. I did not get to take it because it was always packed, but that. That was a thing. But if you wanted mental health services, you got it on your own. And it was usually typically hard to get. So, again, articles like what you've written about Briana Stewart, what we've seen with other athletes talking about their mental health out loud and publicly helps move the conversation forward and helps normalize it. And it's huge, huge. When you think about the demographic of the people, you're talking about perfectors. These are athletes that want to be perfect and will overexert themselves to get there mentally, physically, emotionally, all of the above. So super, super cool. I'll close with the fact that when I asked you that first question about what do you think the Liberty are going to be to take it to the next level, I was just thinking about the end of the article. You're talking about how Coach Sandy Brandello says she's trying to say less in practice. Right. And you alluded to this, like, if the New York Liberty can become that, like, AAU type type type of team where you've played together so long that you don't need to say anything before somebody makes a move, they'll be scary because I think that's where the Vegas Aces are, particularly when Chelsea Gray is back. And there's very few teams out there that have had the ability to gel with that level of star power. And so we'll see what happens this season with the Liberty. But anywho, all right, folks, before we go, it's been a while since we did a set yout screen. So I want to let you guys know some things to be watching for this weekend. Of course, on there's going to be two big games on abc, so you'll definitely want to tune in to the Indiana Fever taking on the New York Liberty on ABC and then followed by the Los Angeles Sparks taking on the Las Vegas Aces. And then there's tons of content out there. I know right now there's Unbreakable, a content series on Las Vegas Aces, right? Is that out in your parts of the town, Sabrina? Have you been able to see that?
- [54:04]
Sabrina Merchant
I have no idea what you're talking about.
- [54:06]
Zena Keda
Really? I just saw that there's like a new content series on.
- [54:11]
Ben Pickman
Oh, that's. That's their behind this. That's their behind the scenes thing.
- [54:14]
Zena Keda
Yeah. So they have a new Aces all access behind the scenes of the war room for their draft, their training camp, media day, all of the above. Check that out on YouTube. That's apparently really cool content to see if you haven't seen full court press on espn. Definitely check it out. Really good. I just recently finished it. Really, really good.
- [54:36]
Ben Pickman
And then features our own Sabrina Merchant. Xena.
- [54:39]
Zena Keda
There you go. Yes, that's right. Yes, that's exactly right. We're like, we're making moves, guys. They're starting to use our voices a little bit. This is cool. Any other things that you think people should set their screens to?
- [54:51]
Ben Pickman
The basketball, all the basketball games going on.
- [54:53]
Zena Keda
Tons of games between now and this weekend. So definitely catch all the action of this first week. Start to see some of these rookies in action for the first time as well as some of these big quote super teams coming into play and see what they look like. After what the Mystics and Mercury did, I am going to shut up about my predictions. They played their butts off. All right, folks, we appreciate you listening in. Of course. As always, please hit that subscribe button on our show. Leave us comments if you have any topics you like for us to cover or questions for our writers. For now, for Ben, for Sabrina, I'm Zena Kaeda. Thanking you for your ear and encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game folks. That's the only way we're going to keep growing it until next time.
- [55:43]
Sabrina Merchant
As.
- [55:44]
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- [57:03]
Zena Keda
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where.
- [57:13]
Sabrina Merchant
We make fun of everything but most importantly ourselves.
- [57:16]
Zena Keda
I'm Paige Desorbo.
- [57:17]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Hannah Burner.
- [57:18]
Zena Keda
Welcome to the Squad.
- [57:19]
Sabrina Merchant
Giggly Squad started on Summerhouse when we were giggling during an inappropriate time.
- [57:23]
Zena Keda
But of course we can't be managed.
- [57:26]
Sabrina Merchant
So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling.
- [57:28]
Zena Keda
We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching Fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests.
- [57:37]
Sabrina Merchant
Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [57:42]
Zena Keda
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [57:48]
Sabrina Merchant
Acast.
- [57:49]
LinkedIn Sales Representative
Com.