Our Power Four Contenders and Pretenders

Summary

No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Episode: Our Power Four Contenders and Pretenders
Original Airdate: January 9, 2026
Hosts: Zena Keita, Chantel Jennings, Sabreena Merchant, Ben Pickman

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Episode Overview

In this mid-season episode, the No Offseason team breaks down women's Power 4 conference basketball, diving deep into which teams are contenders versus pretenders as conference play heats up. Expect candid insights into the WNBA’s ongoing CBA negotiations, detailed analyses of the Big 12, ACC, SEC, and Big Ten, as well as a new segment highlighting the journeys of the show’s own journalists. The hosts debate team strengths, conference power dynamics, and highlight rising programs—delivering the kind of informed, engaging commentary The Athletic is known for.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

WNBA CBA Update: High Stakes & Frigid Negotiations

[01:56 - 07:14]

• Current Status: Entering January 9th, there is still no deal between the WNBA and the Players Association. Previous extensions (from Oct 31 and Thanksgiving) have brought the process here, but “[t]he lack of progress as it currently stands on another extension ... indicates that the sides appear to be either heading towards a status quo period ... or a work stoppage.” (Ben Pickman, 04:09)

• What’s at Stake:

  • Work stoppage would eliminate players’ access to facilities, medical care, and communication with team offices.
  • Status quo would keep things operating as usual, but either side could still call a strike or lockout at any time.

• Public Sentiment Play: The WNBPA updated its social media icon to an hourglass, signaling urgency to fans:

  • “When you want to get public sentiment, you change your IG photo. ... Like, time is of the essence.” (Zena Keita, 06:44)

• Summary: The situation is tense, with no extension yet in sight and major implications for the league and its players.

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Power Four Conference Deep Dives

Big 12: Unpredictable Standouts & New Faces

[10:31 - 18:38]

• Strength & Surprises: This season, teams beyond TCU (preseason favorite) have surprised with their performance—most notably Texas Tech, now undefeated and claiming signature wins over Baylor and West Virginia.
  • “This team continues to be, I think, one of the big surprises in the sport.” (Ben Pickman, 13:30)
  • Texas Tech adds further intrigue with the arrival of 7’1” Stephanie Okechukwu from Nigeria, the tallest women’s player in the sport’s history.
• Contender Count: Hosts see Baylor, West Virginia, and Iowa State (“a little bit of smoke and mirrors...but ... Number 4 field goal percentage in the country”) as likely Sweet-16 level teams. (Zena Keita, 15:56)
• Defensive Emphasis: Big 12 lauded for depth, but hosts flag that only two teams are top-ranked defensively, compared to nine in the SEC—a possible concern for tournament longevity. (Ben Pickman, 18:07)
• Quotes
  • “If I were picking a tournament team, I’d be more inclined to go with a Baylor, West Virginia, Texas Tech, because all of them have been defending quite well.” (Sabrina Merchant, 17:18)

ACC: Where Has the Power Gone?

[18:38 - 34:09]

• Down Year Analysis: The ACC’s “dominance” has faded, both due to outbound stars (recent senior class to the WNBA and transfers) and recruiting/financial disadvantages.
  • “For the last five years, ACC Conference has sent over eight teams [to the tournament]...then last year, we see the Big Ten blow them out the water.” (Zena Keita, 20:53)
  • Financial Factors: With an $8.2M average roster spend (over $1.3M less than SEC/Big Ten), and locked into a less lucrative ESPN deal, the ACC struggles to stay competitive in NIL and recruiting.
• On-Court Observations: Historically deep, the ACC now appears “bottom heavy”—without the high-level national contenders currently found in other Power 4s.
  • “ACC isn’t found in the top 10 anywhere. They’re just ... average.” (Zena Keita, 34:09)
• Teams to Watch:
  • Louisville—perennial Sweet 16/Final Four team, deep bench, poised but suffered early stumbles
  • NC State & Duke—experienced turnover but are “closer to what we thought ... if not national title contender material.” (Sabrina Merchant, 29:22)
  • Stanford (now ACC)—new star in Lara Sampay, showing promise
  • Virginia—possible deep sleeper, improved top-15 offense, increased investment via alum Alexis Ohanian

SEC: Top-Heavy & Defensive Juggernauts

[34:09 - 44:44]

• Dominance & Personality: South Carolina and Texas are branded the “knowns” at the top, but attention centers on whether Vanderbilt and Kentucky are real national threats.
• Vanderbilt:
  • Despite a light non-conference schedule and key player departures, Vandy is undefeated, showing “incredibly good defensive play ... in a way that I didn’t think was possible with this personnel last year.” (Sabrina Merchant, 37:52)
  • “Vanderbilt has both [headline players and impressive stats].” (Zena Keita, 38:04)
• Kentucky:
  • New coach Kenny Brooks brings stability post-Virginia Tech, with transfer Clara Strack (near double-double avg, elite defense) and point guard Tony Morgan leading the way.
  • Offensively, Kentucky and Vanderbilt are notable for high 3-point rates—providing a different look in a conference dominated inside by SC/Texas.
• Quotable Moment:
  • "I think Vandy of the two of them are for real. I like Vandy. ... They might not be Texas or South Carolina, but ... how does Vandy stack up with Oklahoma? How do they stack up with LSU?" (Ben Pickman, 44:03)

Big Ten: Bruising at the Top, Wide-Open Below

[44:44 - 53:43]

• Conference Shape: UCLA, with Lauren Betts and a physically dominant frontcourt, is the clear #1. The #2 spot, however, is “totally up for grabs.”
  • Nine(!) teams could realistically lay claim to being second-best: “Realistically, Michigan, Maryland, Iowa, Michigan State, maybe Ohio State...” (Sabrina Merchant, 46:01)
• Michigan: Hosts ultimately tab Michigan as their consensus Big Ten #2, citing their strong performances vs. UConn and South Carolina, perimeter shot-creation, and best defensive rating in the league.
  • “If I’m going to...bet on one team to play UCLA in the Big Ten tournament final...I think deep down...that’s the pick I’m going to go with.” (Ben Pickman, 48:39)
• Maryland: Once promising, now depleted by injuries and inconsistent performances; the depth of the conference raises concern of them being “brittle by March.” (Sabrina Merchant, 50:51)
• Ohio State: “Might have the best player outside of UCLA in the conference, right? Jelani Cambridge.” Still, their blowout losses to UConn and UCLA have us in “wait and see” mode. (Sabrina Merchant, 53:02)
• Humorous Note: Extended riff about “transitive property” wins in the Big Ten (e.g., “everyone beats everybody”)—a recurring, tongue-in-cheek college hoops meme.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Time is of the essence. People are running out of time to figure out a decision for this [CBA].” (Zena Keita, 06:44)
• “Do I look like an all star when I’m doing two steps in on no defense? Okay, but...” (Zena Keita on Texas Tech’s 7'1" recruit, 14:54)
• “Nut cutting time is crazy. I haven’t heard that in a very long time.” (Zena Keita reacting to Sabrina, 44:44)
• “Runner up. Congratulations.” (Ben Pickman, mock-congratulating Zena on Yale’s ‘transitive’ national championship, 48:36)
• “If you go across all the major statistical categories ... ACC isn’t found in the top 10 anywhere.” (Zena Keita, 34:09)

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Journalist Corner: Learning by Doing

[55:39 - 62:02]

A segment inspired by a listener’s heartfelt email, where Sabrina and Ben share early-career missteps to encourage aspiring journalists.

• Sabrina’s Story: Recorder battery dies in first major interview as a student reporter—has to shorthand her way through, only able to use one confirmed quote.
  • “I just like shorthand writing as fast as I can, trying to figure this out.” (Sabrina Merchant, 57:57)
• Lesson: Always carry backup batteries/chargers!
• Ben’s Story: Too-ambitious NBA feature as a nervous college freshman, “wet behind the ears,” but learned from the chaos.
• “I swung big. I was like, I’m gonna pitch a story on the NBA player who’s returning to school...” (Ben Pickman, 59:09)
• Zena’s Take: Embarrassing (but impactful) first profile on Dearica Hamby, “I hope Wake Forest has archived that thing.”
• The segment closes with encouragement for those interested in journalism: everyone starts rough, but growth comes with practice.

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Conclusion

The No Offseason crew delivers a thorough, sharp, and often funny look at women’s college basketball, with special attention to the nuances of each Power 4 conference—helpful for any newcomer or veteran fan trying to grasp the true state of the sport mid-season. They balance statistical insight and personality, showing how off-court factors (like NIL, conference media deals, and recruiting) directly shape what we see on the floor.

For feedback, listener Mailbag, or more, follow No Offseason wherever you get your podcasts, and check out The Athletic’s Women’s Sports Hub.

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Episode Structure:

• WNBA CBA Update and social media strategy ([01:56 - 07:14])
• Power Four deep dives: Big 12 ([10:31 - 18:38]), ACC ([18:38 - 34:09]), SEC ([34:09 - 44:44]), Big Ten ([44:44 - 53:43])
• Journalist Corner & listener shoutouts ([55:39 - 62:02])

Ad and intro/outro sections omitted per guidelines.

Transcript

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Hello everyone and welcome to no offseason. I'm Zena Kaeda.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm Sabrina Mer.

[Ben Pickman]

Ben Pickman.

[Zena Kaeda]

And today on the show, we're diving into power or conference play where drama, chaos and challenges are pushing teams to their limits and revealing both strengths and weaknesses. From early shakeups in the rankings to all out battles in the SEC and big ten, this season has already shown us just how much depth and resilience matter. All of this is setting the stage for a compelling stretch leading into March. A little bit of conference chaos. But before we get there, it's time for deal or no Deal. And as we're recording this, there's still no agreement between the WNBPA and the league. But we're also recording this on January 8th. And Ben, I believe January 9th is an important date for some reasons.

[Ben Pickman]

Yes, that is true, Jina. January 9th is an important date on the calendar. That is the current date of the expiration of the CBA that the league currently operates under. So that is a date that, you know, we are now arrived at after two extensions between the league and the union. The initial deadline when this process started was back in October 31st. They initially then agreed to a 30 day extension, pushing it back to just after Thanksgiving. And then they pushed it back again to January 9th, the date that you have so correctly highlighted. And so where we are at heading into January 9th is very much a no deal scenario. And I think in past. Yeah, yeah, sorry to break. Sorry to break the news to you, Xena, but I think what makes it particularly noteworthy this time around is in past scenarios, when we approach the deadline, there has seemed to be momentum for an extension to be reached. Right. That seemed to be the case certainly ahead of the Halloween deadline on October 31st and then as well ahead of the November deadline at the end of the month there, which is. Well, as Friday's deadline approaches and we should say we're taping this on Thursday afternoon, neither the WNBA nor the PA has offered an extension to the other party. That is as of Thursday morning, according to sources who I have talked to. And so, yes, it is certainly possible that the two sides could agree to extend the deadline for a third time on Friday. Right. They have until midnight or 11:59, I guess, on Friday night to do so. But the lack of progress as it currently stands on another extension, and you know, that indicates that the sides appear to be either heading towards a status quo period, which we can certainly explain, or a work stoppage. Those are really the two options that very much are on the table.

[Zena Kaeda]

Okay, I'm happy you brought this up because the last time we spoke there was this new development about the players had given the PA the right to call for work stoppage or a strike if necessary. And I was kind of like, well, didn't they always have the right? Like, what does this really signify? But now there is this possibility that it could happen. So break that down for us. What could actually happen if there is a work stoppage?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, so a work stoppage would mean that the players in the WNBA would no longer have working conditions with one another, essentially. Like the players could not go into their facilities, they could not receive medical care from their WNBA teams. There would not be contact between front offices and players. And, you know, that could be signaled by a strike from the player's perspective, where they are withholding services, or it could be a lockout from the league perspective where they physically lock out the players from WNBA properties. But either way, that would result in a similar lack of, you know, communication between the two parties.

[Zena Kaeda]

And then status quo. Ben, like, how is that different than a work stoppage?

[Ben Pickman]

Things are just normal, right? You can still enter your facility. They are what they currently are. If either side wants to change, then any parts of the working conditions. Right. They would have to also be negotiated as well. So status quo means, you know, you don't have a new deal, but you haven't locked out and, like, prevented some of the things that Sabrina is talking about. We're just going to leave it be. And at any point in a status quo, and we're not going to get too technical into the legal processes here, but in either, at any time, in a status quo, the players can elect to strike or the league can elect to lock the players out.

[Zena Kaeda]

Okay, y', all, it's a little frigid out here. I know it's cold in certain parts of the country right now, but it's feeling a little cold between this conversation. So right now, still no deal. But we'll keep you guys up to date, as always. Ben, any last things on the CBA negotiation?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, Xena, I want to get your thought on one aspect of the negotiation that has just popped up in recent days, and that is the wnbpa. Heading into this deadline, they changed their Instagram icon, their photo to an hourglass with sand running out of it, I guess. What do you think about, you know, public organizations changing Instagram header photos and plant using social media that way ahead of important moments.

[Zena Kaeda]

Listen, this is exactly what we. We touched on this on the podcast. When you want to get public sentiment, you change your IG photo. Okay? You get people bought in on social media, understanding that things are of the essence. Like, time is of the essence. People are running out of time to figure out a decision for this. So, yeah, IG photos, they got their priorities lined up. Okay. They know what's going to get the people talking, and that's really how you support the players in this whole situation, for the fans to be on the.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Like and subscribe.

[Zena Kaeda]

There you go. Like and subscribe, basically. But we'll see what happens. And we appreciate you, Ben, Sabrina, keeping us up to date on everything that's going on with the cba. All right. Let's swing it over to college.

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[Zena Kaeda]

So now that conference play is in full swing, we're getting a clearer picture of who's really built for it. Okay, we're starting to see some of the vulnerabilities. We're starting to see some cracks in some people's foundations. Okay, folks, LSU showing us a little bit. Notre Dame, Iowa State Even while UConn, Texas, South Carolina, and UCLA, they've just been standing strong. Now, the SEC and the Big Ten in particular have been absolute battles and they've been bullies around. The NCAA teams are finding out fast what they're made of. So now it's the perfect time for us to check in on those power conferences as conference play continues to open up and starting to show us some things. So, Sabrina, why don't you kick us off with the Big 12? When you look at that conference, what questions stand out to you?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I think it's interesting you talk about conference play starting to show us some cracks, because to me, the Big 12 has sort of been a little bit. I think there are a lot of teams in this conference that are better than I would have expected coming into conference play, and that comes at the expense of some other teams. But I look at this conference and when we came into the season, I was pretty certain that TCU was going to be national second weekend contender. Pencil them into the Sweet 16. Let's see if they can go any further. But I wasn't really sure about any teams beyond that. Now I look at the body of the Big 12 and I think this could be a team that is a little bit better represented when we get to the Sweet 16 of the NCAA tournament. So my question is, we look at this conference, I don't think it's actually 12 teams anymore. Everything's a misnomer. But of the teams in this conference, how many do you think could realistically be, you know, hosting an NCAA tournament game and lasting on, you know, two wins into the tournament, making it to this week? 16?

[Zena Kaeda]

Ooh, that is a good question. Where did you land on this, Ben, when you think about this conference and what they're looking at in terms of their performance and really, you're right, Sabrina, over performance so far this season. Any teams that stood out to you besides tcu?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, the team that I have been most interested in this conference for a little bit of time now is Texas Tech. And they're a program that, you know, I highlighted just before we went off to the Christmas break as one team to watch because at that point in the schedule they were still unbeaten. And then right after we taped that conversation, they eked out a win over Baylor, which, you know, was viewed much like Sabrina mentioned and Iowa State and tcu. Baylor again, one of the front runners, the most formidable teams in the conference. So Texas Tech wins that game and at the time we are recording this, they're now 170 and on Wednesday night they beat West Virginia, who I had in my AP top 25 poll this week, who seems to be an NCAA tournament team. And they beat them in comeback fashion on the road in a very impressive win. And so this team continues to be, I think, one of the big surprises in the Sport. There's only four unbeaten teams left in women's colle basketball, Division 1 at the time we taped this and they are one of them. And this is a program again, that has been a bottom feeder. They've made the NCAA tournament just twice since 2005. So there's a lot to like about Texas Tech. They have just one player who is not a senior or junior. So they have one underclassman on their entire roster. They have a balance scorers. They have three players who again take at least 10 shots per game. No one is taking more than 13. Like there's a lot of balance overall in their offense and we've seen them improve their defense too. So they to me, are certainly a program to watch. And I think we should also say this and you know, maybe we can just tease up another part of the conversation. We don't yet know about a certain 7 foot 1 recruit that they just announced that they have signed. There is a player who is coming in via Nigeria from Nigeria and she is seven foot one. She's the tallest women's basketball player in the history of the sport according to the school. She's reported and enrolled in Texas Tech. Right now they're waiting eligibility status. Again, we don't know what kind of impact she could even have and what that would do to the makeup of the roster. But we're talking intrigue. It certainly heightens the intrigue around this program as we currently talk.

[Zena Kaeda]

Absolutely. And you think about her name is Stephanie Okechukwu. And seeing the clips of this girl, it's ridiculous. Like she's doing like two steps in dunking. Now let's just be real.

[Ben Pickman]

When you're.

[Zena Kaeda]

Do I look like an all star when I'm doing two steps in on no defense? Okay, but we are, we, we have yet to see what she can actually do on the floor. But just Eve, again, as you mentioned, the intrigue around a team that's undefeated, being able to add in this player. It feels like the vibes are good in Texas for sure. And that, you know, being able to have a win over Baylor, who I would say, you know, Baylor and Iowa State. Iowa State's defense is a little too rocky for me, but Baylor for sure as that team that's right up under tcu. We have to give some love to the fact that, you know, I think it was two days ago when Texas Tech got that Baylor win. TCU fell for the first time, Arizona State fell for the first time. And you're starting to see, okay, there is a little bit of life in terms of what's possible in the Big 12, winning a lot of games, dominating good teams, teams that are ranked. And we got included West Virginia in that conversation. So Sabrina, I know you asked us the question. I think we're going to put it back on you now.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Do we have an answer? Did I get a number?

[Zena Kaeda]

I would say three. I would say for me it's Baylor, it's, it's West Virginia and it's Iowa State. Iowa State, though it looks like a little bit of smoke and mirrors sometimes for me. But I mean they've got Top what Number 4 Field Goal Percentage in the country. They're incredibly efficient from that perspective. We know what Audi, Chris can do. I don't know if you guys have seen that compilation of the defense as of late for Marty Crooks. That is concerning when you think about that from a.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Why was she on the court for that final basket against Baylor? Like I don't understand what, what the game plan was there, but don't know.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, I want to also say about.

[Ben Pickman]

This conference, this is the highest overall net rating the conference has had since 2018. Now they've shown improvement year over year but you know, to me it's in the non conference. I should say like to me that's, you know, maybe indicative. I haven't dug into every team schedule of some soft scheduling across the board. Right. But I still Think overall, that speaks to the broad strength of the conference. It's still not as good, in my opinion, as the SEC in terms of, we're thinking a national title contender. It might not match up in the same way against the Big Ten. Like, they might not have that elite number one, no doubt team that programs around the country fear. But I do have to, you know, you do have to recognize the depth of the conference, and I think that's some of what we just talked about.

[Zena Kaeda]

Okay. I feel good about where we landed with that. Sabrina, how are you feeling?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, I mean, when I think about, like, tournament success, I tend to value good defensive teams better than good offensive teams. So that's why I'm a little wary of the likes of Iowa State, even Oklahoma State, that have been really good offensively, I think better than TCU offensively when you look at their, you know, points for Hunter possessions. But if I were, you know, picking a tournament team, I'd be more inclined to go with a Baylor, West Virginia, Texas Tech, because all of them have been defending quite well. You know, you look at how Texas Tech was able to just shut down the water on West Virginia in that game, you know, at West Virginia on Wednesday, where I think West Virginia hit, like, one of its first 15 field goals in the fourth quarter. You know, just a disgusting offensive performance. But a lot of that is credit to the Texas Tech defense. Just good, solid rim protection, trying not to foul. And then when you've got somebody like Bailey Maupin, who's, I think, front runner for Big 12 Player of the year right now, just able to get her shot whenever she can, it's been a fun, fun story to watch and loving.

[Ben Pickman]

And we should say to that point, Sabrina, just to put a number on it, nine SEC teams right now are currently in the top of defensive rating. The Big 12 has just two. Right. So to your point about defense and how that, you know, the conference fares in terms of teams defensively compared to its peers. There you go.

[Zena Kaeda]

There you go. And I'm gonna tell you right now, Sabrina, I like that Big 12 player of the year front runner Talia Scott. I'm. I'm. I'm a fan.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Hey, it's an undefeated Texas Tech team. That still counts in contest.

[Zena Kaeda]

That's true. That's true. That's absolutely true. Okay, this is.

[Sabrina Merchant]

This is good versus two Baylor to Texas Tech.

[Zena Kaeda]

I should say that's true. Okay, we're starting strong here. These questions are good so far. Starting to look at a little bit around the association. We're Gonna swing our attention now to my neck of the woods, which is strange because it was once my neck of the woods when I lived in North Carolina and now it's my neck of the woods when I'm living in California. But that's another conversation, actually. No, it's actually gonna be part of this conversation, guys. I was very happy that I took on the ACC Conference preview, mainly because I did not realize how biased I've been. Like I've been. I've had a little bit of. It's not even recency bias. It's just the fact that I grew up in North Carolina at a time where it felt like every year you could count on an ACC team being top five. Now, did they win titles? Not necessarily. There was such a thing as the UConn wall, the Tennessee Wall. But you could see, I mean, the fact that Duke was pretty much like a write in, UNC was pretty much a write in. This was a thing to have ACC teams get to the Final Four, or at least in that Elite Eight consistently from the early 2000s to about mid-2016. Then after that, it kind of dried up and thank God Notre Dame joined the ACC in 2014 because they took up two of the the title runs that I'm talking about, getting into the elite, getting into the Final Four and getting into championship teams. But when I actually look back and I see what has the ACC done really, really well in the last few years, in the last 10 years or so, they've just been consistent in their depth in the tournament. But as we've been talking about it, it feels like that's dropped off. And I think the biggest thing is for the last five years, ACC Conference has set over to the tournament. Eight teams. Literally just in a row, eight teams could be just scheduled in for the acc. Then last year, we see the Big Ten blow them out the water. So it made me ask the question, what is it going to take for the ACC to kind of get back to that dominance? I mean, sure, championships is important, but even just being a conference that is ending up more consistently in the more final rounds of the NCAA Tournament versus the earlier rounds. So I have thoughts, but I wanted to open that up and see what you guys were thinking. And I got some research done, of course, as to why this might be happening for the acc, but we can get into that as well. Initial thoughts on the acc?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, I think it's a down year for the ACC because so much of the talent went to the wnba. You know, you look at what NC State Lost in Sinai Rivers and Isaiah James and what Notre Dame lost in Sonia Citron and, you know, Olivia Miles end up transferring. But, you know, you still have Maddie West Belt making it to the wnba. Like, it was such a banner year for ACC WNBA players that their absence is being significantly felt at the college level. So that's part of it. You know, I think it's just sort of the ebbs and flows of where the talent happens to be. It was just a very, very good senior class, and the freshman class has not exactly replaced all of that production thus far.

[Zena Kaeda]

That's very real. That's very real, Ben.

[Ben Pickman]

To me, it goes back to Stanford, right? I think we talked about this a little while ago, and Stanford, we should say very much on the cusp of being a top 25 team right now. They're much improved from what they were last year. But for years and years and years, right? Stanford was obviously a perennial power in the PAC 12.

[Sabrina Merchant]

They enter the ACC, Stanford really lowering the bar for the ACC.

[Ben Pickman]

Let me discl. They were a power in the PAC 12. They enter THE conference and suddenly everyone thinks, well, here's another, you know, upper echelon program, no doubt, final for elite eight. At worst program entering the acc. And guess what? Last year they were not that. And I think people are kind of thrown off the scent because this year, while much improved, they are not that again. And so the overall, you know, they don't have that headliner, right? That is really one of the big differences. I do still think there are some quality teams in this conference. I think Louisville, right? They're a team, a top 15 team. But one of the things that I think is kind of interesting about Louisville, and if you look at their schedule, I think people were a little thrown off the scent with Louisville, right? They lost their first game to UConn. And when you start, oh, and one, instinctually, I think a lot of people are like, oh, oh, and one like, let's drop them from the rankings. All these other teams are undefeated. Like, let's just, you know, put them on the back burner couple, you know, they get a couple wins, then they lose to Kentucky, who again, they're a top 15 team nationally. Louisville then gets a couple more wins. What happens next? December 4th, they play South Carolina. They lose by two. A really competitive game to South Carolina, but a loss is a loss. And so they kind of haven't had that 10, 0, 12, 15, 0 drop a game run. And I'm not saying this is fair in terms of evaluating them because, look, you look at it right now as conference play has begun. They beat SMU by more than 30, maybe Virginia Tech by more than 25. They're I think, the best team in the conference in terms of metrics. They're the second best team nationally in terms of bench scoring. Jeff Walsh has a really, really deep team that he is relying on. There's a lot to like about Louisville, but they haven't been in that like top five, top eight conversation in part because of those slight stumbles along the way.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah. Oh my God. You guys are hitting on so many of the points that I want to hit. This is great. Okay, so Sabrina's. You hit on the fact that the poaching of like the, the graduation of talent. There's also been poaching of talent.

[Ad Voice]

Right?

[Zena Kaeda]

Talk about Olivia Miles going to tcu.

[Sabrina Merchant]

You know, Florida State while going to Maryland, you know.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, exactly. Florida State losing to Latson. Like there's been an issue with the ACC having kind of like an open faucet of talent leaving. And I looked this up. Be trying to explain from a revenue perspective, financial perspective, like why isn't the ACC becoming landing spots, especially in this nil transfer portal era. And on average you look at the sec, the Big Ten, they're averaging like nine and a half million for like per roster in terms of spend on particular basketball players, whereas the ACC is averaging 8.2 million. That doesn't seem like a huge drop off, like 1.3. It's doesn't seem significant, but to these players it is. This is a matter of setting up your brands. This is a matter of setting yourself up, whether you make it to the league or not. Like that level of money being available for rosters in general I think is impacting the ACC's ability to re recruit their players and to recruit players from other conferences. Then of course there's a factor. And Sabrina, you brought this up yesterday. We were talking about this, the TV spend deal, the fact that the ACC is locked into this ESPN deal till 2036 and it is significantly lower in terms of dollars you know, they're going to net in comparison to the SEC and the Big Ten and their deals. That also hurts your ability to recruit, hurts your ability to have that brand name, that headliner. As you mentioned, Ben, in terms of schools that players want to go to right now, the SEC is hot. Like every school there feels like whether it's football, whether it's big time basketball, on both sides of basketball, it just feels like that's where you want to go. That's where the money and the investment is going. And I think that there is something to that, too.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Just speaking of the money real quick, Cena, I think in the revenue share era, that could end up working in the ACC's favor because the SEC has all of these other sports that it has to pay out to, you know, in terms of football and basketball and baseball. You know, like they're so much bigger in that conference than they are in the acc, where I think women's basketball or women's sports in general probably takes precedent over the likes of baseball, you know, and there could be. And there's obviously not as much money going to football in the ACC because, well, you know, whatever you want. But I think that there could be some sort of rerouting of money, like via revenue share towards women's sports in the ACC that doesn't necessarily exist in the SEC because of all of those other priorities. And that's going to take a little bit of time to normalize itself because we're only in what year two of revenue shares. So that could be something that the ACC has on the horizon that could help it get back to where, you know, the conference wants to be.

[Zena Kaeda]

Absolutely. But until that happens, and it's a really great point, like the acc, though, is going to just be operating in a revenue deficit in comparison. And it's like when I mean, like a revenue deficit in comparison to what the Big Ten, the SEC are getting from their deals with Fox and SEC just got their new ESPN ABC deal in 2024. It's like a $25 million annual deficit. That's less money for charter flights. That's less money for support staff and dobos. I don't even know if they have dobos in the same way, like directors of basketball operations. So many. I think they do okay. Just like facility renovations. I mean all these things. That is what the ACC is going to be operating at. I'm not saying it's the answer for all of what's happening. I'm not saying it's the answer for why they went 3:13 in the ACC SEC challenge. But I do think that these type of factors can contribute in an external way. But let's actually talk about the basketball now. Oh, yeah, Ben.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah. I mean, I wanted to talk about the basketball and I wanted to highlight two teams of note that I guess I was particularly interested in. And I'm going to save the stamp for me material for all of you. Z from Because I'm sure you have some thoughts. I think one other team that needs to be mentioned here. Louisville has been historically really, really successful over the last 10 years. What Jeff Walls has built there are perennial Sweet 16, Final Four team. They had one of the longest streaks I want to say for the second weekend in the sport for a period of time in recent years we've also seen NC State kind of quietly become one of the most reliable teams in the sport. I want to say that over the last five years heading into this season they've made at least the sweet 16 in four of them. Right. They haven't won a national championship so they don't have that, you know, final culmination. But in terms of reliable programs, that's where they've gotten. And again this year they always schedule hard at the start of the season and we saw some mixed results which you know, kind of threw us off the scent. Sabrina mentioned it. They also had a lot of turnover year over year. So it's kind of natural that without Rivers and without James and they might not be as dynamic as some people think. They are certainly a team to watch though in this conference. I mean they beat Stanford by what is it, 74 to 46 was the score. I can't do math a lot. Yeah, I mean that's, that's a lot like, I mean that's a huge, huge victory and they beat Cal. So NC State I don't know if people have thoughts on is definitely one, one team to watch about can they ascend going forward.

[Zena Kaeda]

I mean they were sort of that.

[Sabrina Merchant]

World of the NC State, right Where you have such a tough non conference schedule and like NC State ends up losing to usc which you can debate how bad of a loss that was. They end up losing in Oklahoma which is tough but then they also had that loss to Rhode island and you look at Duke and you can excuse the South Carolina and LSU and those big losses, but how do you rationalize South Florida and West Virginia with only five players? But you're seeing NC State start off the ACC schedule undefeated. Duke is on a six game winning streak with some really convincing ACC road wins. They didn't equip themselves as well in the non conference part of the schedule but these are teams that you know, underwent a lot of turnover as you mentioned with NC State. Not just those two players but Madison Hayes like a five year starter basically at NC State graduating and then Duke losing. Lucia Kahnenwa, Reagan Richardson, Jaden Donovan has basically been a non factor this year. So a lot of just changes in that personnel and it's, you know, that's why you see some teams that try to schedule very early easy in the non conference because they want to sort of build up what they can be before you know, getting the wind knocked out of them. And Duke and NC State got got the wind knocked out of them and now they're just picking themselves up again. But I think they are closer to what we thought at the beginning of the season if not national title contender material.

[Zena Kaeda]

That's where I'm landing. Is that the difference in why it feels as if ACC play isn't as competitive in comparison to SEC and Big Ten? And I mean hell, I'll throw in the Big 12 in there too. It's that it feels like the conference isn't as top heavy as these other conferences are. There just aren't these teams. I mean we saw Louisville go on a seven game win streak like cool, but that's like the most that we were seeing. Right. And I give credit to the fact that these teams are scheduling hard. I mean NC State, Westmore like his team, those three losses you just talked about 10 points or less, you know, I mean these teams, these games were competitive that they're going into and they're losing but where they've lost that are going to stand out on the national conversation. But it's still competitive. They're just kind of average in terms of like the top 25 conversation. Stanford is one team though. I do think that they started out of the top 25. We already seen that they're getting AP votes. They did a wonderful job recruiting and bringing in some unbelievable freshmen. Lara Sampay is going to be a national name, a person to contend with. She is all of the things Stanford has loved. A big that can shoot, that can handle the ball, that can work down low. I mean she is the quintessential what Stanford built their whole dynasty on it feels like. And so it's kind of cool to see them kind of redeem themselves from that perspective. And then they also have really good guards. So I think the acc, I don't know, I think that right now, this year, this conference, the play is going to be interesting between them when it comes to tournament time. If we get some upsets, we'll be excited. Let's just say that.

[Ben Pickman]

Can I throw one other team too that you know is back on my radar and that's one that I don't think I've thought about for a long time and that's the University of Virginia. They are 12 and 3 at the time that we record this 40 in the conference, they have a top 15 offense in terms of offensive rating and you know, they're shooting it again, top 20 in terms of effective field goal percentage. And they get out and run, which is one of the things that separates them top 20 in terms of fast break points per game. This is a program that you have to think about it. They've made the NCAA tournament just once since 2010. They've only been ranked once since 2010 and ironically enough, those were not in the same years, which is kind of funny when you think about it. So they are a program too. They've gotten off to a really hot start in the conference. They beat Florida State in overtime on the road. That's usually a quality, you know, that is a quality win in conference, certainly. But I think one of the things that's interesting about them, like they were again, like so many of the teams we've talked about, off people's radars because they basically lost or they did lose some of their toughest non conference games or if they lost to Nebraska, who I'm sure we're going to talk about when we talk about the Big Ten and Vanderbilt, who I can guarantee we're going to talk about when we talk about the sec and then they have this loss to umbc. And you know, no disrespect to umbc. Sabrina, can you name I could tell.

[Sabrina Merchant]

You one thing about UMBC and that's that the men's team beat the men's University of Virginia team in the unstable tournament as a 16 one.

[Ben Pickman]

And we're not talking about. And we all go that game. We're not, we're not talking about Hunter.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Hunter who wasn't playing in the game.

[Ben Pickman]

Right. We are talking about Virginia women's basketball and we're talking about where they are in January and not in March. So they are another team. If we're looking at deep sleepers in the comments, for sure could they make the NCAA tournament? I'd circle Virginia, keep a little bit of an eye on how they perform.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And just to tie a bow with our whole financial conversation regarding University of Virginia, Alexis Ohanian, you know, Reddit co founder who is an alum of Virginia, has thrown a lot of money into this program. So you think about the resources that they could have going forward. There is a significant backing that could help this program build in the coming years.

[Zena Kaeda]

I like that. Ben, to your point of I'm happy you brought up the whole Virginia, where their offense ranks, et cetera. If you go across all the major statistical categories, assists, rebound Margins, field goal percentage. ACC isn't found in the top 10 anywhere. They're just. They're just average. It just means that again, they're a little bottom heavy. We'll see what happens. Now let's turn to a conference that is very top heavy. And Sabrina, I want to ask you before we turn this to Ben, who do you think Ben is going to talk about first when we talk about the sec? I just want to take. I want you to take a bunch of.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I feel like you already teased Vanderbilt, so.

[Zena Kaeda]

Okay, okay, okay. We'll see. Now I got to turn it to you, Ben. What's the first thing that comes to mind when you think SEC hoops? Sabrina Guess. Vanderbilt.

[Ben Pickman]

Well, the first thing that comes to mind, I think about Kim Mulkey and Lane Kiffin holding their hands, walking out on the court.

[Zena Kaeda]

So weird. So just.

[Sabrina Merchant]

They're gonna be great friends. I am positive of it. Great friends.

[Zena Kaeda]

I love my friends. And there's like. I don't know if I would just walk into an arena holding hands with my friends like that. I don't. Whatever. Anywho. Okay, that's an interesting thought. What's the second thought that comes to mind when you think about SEC hoops?

[Ben Pickman]

Can I make another joke? It's Kim Mulkey saying that you can only believe 50% of what you read in the newspaper. I mean, Jesus.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Not a joke from Kim Mulkey.

[Ben Pickman]

I can tell you that we took personal umbrage. We took personal umbrage. I can assure you on this podcast to that.

[Zena Kaeda]

You know what? The 50% is what you write. She listens to the pod and listens to everything we say. That's the difference. You know, maybe.

[Ben Pickman]

Maybe she listens or maybe she's more of like a radio consumer. We don't really know. I guess on the basketball front, though, I think we know what we're getting out of South Carolina. Right? I think we know what we're getting out of Texas at the top of the conference. This is again one of those conferences. What are we getting from teams that are a little bit below? I think Vanderbilt in Kentucky, specifically. Like, where are they in the pecking order of this conference? And more importantly, where are they nationally? Like, are they legitimate national contenders that can make an elite eight that can make a final four? I think that's one of the big questions that I have with this. This conference.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Okay, Vanderbilt in Kentucky. You know, Vanderbilt didn't exactly have the most sterling non conference schedule, but they've started off SEC on a bang. You think about that win that they had over LSU with all of the things that Kim Mulkey said after that. But this is a team that we were worried about talent wise. All of the exodus they had in terms of Ayanna Moore, Camille Pierre, how much was going to be on Mikayla Blake's plate. And I mean I think I'm a broken record. I feel like I talked about this earlier in the week, but just Sasha Washington, Avre Calvin, just so many Justin Passat, all these Jada Brown, the backup point guard who I think has just been really steadying in terms of just allowing Blakes to play off ball all the time. I think Shea Ralph like just finally has the kind of team that she wants, like all the different pieces that she wants. And again I've, I've been like a little lower on Vanderbilt over the course of the year just because like again, all the exodus. They were only a first weekend tournament last year. Tournament team last year. I think they lost in the first round. But you know, undefeated at this point of the year is just very hard to overlook. Right. And we only have four of them. Right. And we've just gushed about Texas Tech. I'm sure we'll, we, we aren't gushing about UConn because they're not in a Power 4 conference. But like Texas, let's sure to gush about them too. Just an excellent season so far. Vanderbilt also deserves some gushing because they've just been so incredibly good defensively in a way that I didn't think was possible with this personnel last year. And you know, I'm just very excited to see what the rest of the SEC season looks like for them because this is a conference that just doesn't give you any breaks at all. And it's a good thing. They have probably the best condition player in the SEC in the Hill place, but it's going to take some work.

[Zena Kaeda]

I was just going to say that we talk about, you know, the ACC kind of lacking in their headline players and stats and record and that Vanderbilt has both. Right. Like you tone into Vanderbilt, you're going.

[Sabrina Merchant]

To see a show.

[Zena Kaeda]

Mikayla Blake's and they did a really good job of being resilient in the departures that they had. I was like when I heard that Camille Pierre was going to NC State, which I still don't quite know what happened. But when that happened we were like, whoa, that duo was crazy. Inside, outside, just ridiculous buckets being gotten and Vanderbilt's getting those buckets still. And it's funny that we mentioned Virginia as our last team because the SEC ACC challenge, Vanderbilt took care of Virginia. Like I remember that game looking and seeing Virginia's offense just not running as well, which I. I've never really penned Vanderbilt as a defensive team, but they're handling business on that side of the ball for sure. Let's swing it over though to Kentucky and talk a little bit about how they've been, especially with Kenny Brooks coming over from Virginia Tech. Of course they had a great run with Georgia Amor being able to lead the charge last year, but this year they've been holding their own. And I'm particularly happy to see the fact that without Clara Silva, without Georgia Amore, they've still been able to have some relevance. Who's been standing out for you, Ben, with that team?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, Clara Strack is the first name to mention. She again was one of these transfers who, like Georgia Amore, came for Kenny Brooks from Virginia Tech. Transfers into Kentucky, 16, almost 17 points per game, 10 rebounds, three blocks. You watch her post game. Claire Strack is 6 foot 5 and she has some really, really good footwork. You know, she can really knock down turnaround jumpers in the post. She's just got really nice feel. She was all SEC last year. She was all SEC defense last year, defensive player of the year in the conference. And look, she is the anchor that is really holding so much of what Kentucky is doing down. Defense again, Kenny Brooks, his teams are known to be strong on that end. They're very strong on that end. Yet again, they are top 15 in both offense and also defense. Claire Strack, a big reason why one.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Of the things I like about Kentucky and Vanderbilt, you know, you think about South Carolina and Texas at the top of this conference, they're teams that really just own the paint, right? And they attack the glass. They score well in the paint. They don't take a lot of threes. Vanderbilt and Kentucky though, they have a very high three point temp rate. You know, Vanderbilt's taken 40% of its shots from three point range. Kentucky's taking about 45% of its shots from three point Range. For example, Texas is below 20%. So just different universe that we're talking about in terms of how they construct their offenses. And that just helps you like in a possession game if you can get three for every two. You know, if games are a little bit tighter, a little bit shorter to be able to never be out of a contest, you know, because you can put up points in a hurry. You know, you mentioned Clara Stack as The first thing you thought of, I think it's hard not to have Tony Morgan as like the first top of your scouting report on Kentucky these days. You know what she was able to do against LSU that game winning three pointer coming off of game where she had nine assists or was it 12 assist, sorry to zero turnovers. Just what she's. You think like Kenny Brooks said Georgia Amore is a point guard for five years. Right. And then to just seamlessly bring in Toni Morgan from Georgia Tech. She's been this phenomenal veteran leader, really steadying Kentucky again, a team that just doesn't turn the ball over very much which again super important in an SEC where every possession is like life or death in this conference. So I think those are things that like really make me excited about Vanderbilt in Kentucky is that are so good at valuing the ball and they can not only get up a lot of threes but hit a lot of threes because that just helps mitigate some of the advantages that you know, South Carolina and Texas teams like that may have physically inside, you know, and on the glass.

[Ben Pickman]

Do you worry though, Sabrina, like Kentucky for exactly what you talked about in their offensive profile, less than a quarter of their shots come at the free throw line. Right. And that's bottom 60. It's towards the bottom of the country nationally. And they don't score, they don't force deals, they don't score in transition. Like do you worry that. Yes, exactly what you're saying. They're trading threes for twos in a lot of situations, but they don't get some of those free points that we often see really efficient offenses also get if they're shooting a lot of threes.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean it's a great point. Like Vanderbilt does that. Right? Like they force a lot of turnovers. They may not, you know, attack the glass in the same way that like these other teams do, but they are at least creating a possession advantage that way. I think what sort of helps with Kentucky is that they are so efficient in the half court and even if they aren't forcing turnovers, their length is really just what's the word I'm looking for constricting for opposing teams in the half court. Their defensive rating is still in the 96 percentile. You look at that starting lineup, six five Clara Strack, six three teone key, six three Amelia Hassett, Jordan Obi is a big, big two guard. They are just massive in the way that they constrict space. And I understand like they're not turning that into fast break options. But their efficiency in the half court still is like so impressive. And the fact that they're not turning the ball over at least allows them to not fall behind super, you know, aggressively in like the way that some other teams that just can't control the ball.

[Zena Kaeda]

Do you know that Tony Morgan averaged 21 points and 13 assists per game last week? That's casual 13.

[Sabrina Merchant]

We talked a lot about that Oregon State diaspora last year. You look at what Georgia Tech has given, you know, to the rest of the women's basketball world this year. Tony Morgan, excellent point guard at UK Chit chat Wright, just number one scorer at Iowa. Cara Dunn has been phenomenal for usc, just three and d everything that we want out of that. And then Danny Carnegie at Georgia, right. Like a team that was undefeated for a very long time. That was a very talented Georgia Tech team that was probably just hitting its stride and it's kind of unfortunate that they're all over the place now.

[Zena Kaeda]

They're like the OKC of NCAA women's basketball.

[Ben Pickman]

Right. That's an ACC team that has lost some talent. I think we should also say too, as we put a button I Kentucky tion key. She did go down with an injury over the weekend against Missouri. Dislocated her elbow, I think is the current diagnosis. And you know, it's unclear how long she's going to be out for. I think the early comments from Kenny Brooks on it were that it could be a couple of weeks, it could be a little bit longer. So that is certainly something to watch as it pertains to Kentucky and their lineups going forward.

[Zena Kaeda]

Okay, so the question is, in a conference as packed as the sec, what's the verdict? Do we think that Vanderbilt and Kentucky are for real?

[Ben Pickman]

I think Vandy of the two of them are for real. I like Vandy. Yeah. For all the reasons we said at the beginning. I mean, I've been high on them all year long. I think Sabrina and I have talked about it. I don't think, you know, they might not be Texas or South Carolina, but I think what's really interesting for me is how does Vandy stack up with Oklahoma? How do they stack up with lsu? Like that to me is a really beat in lsu. That's a conversation I think I'm certainly. Or that's something I'm monitoring for a conversation. Maybe we can have another time too.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. The problem with Vanderbilt built is their SEC schedule is a little bit backloaded. So they still have a few more gimme games in the conference. Before we get to the real nut cutting time. So we'll see.

[Zena Kaeda]

I have not heard that in a very long time. I think my seventh grade volleyball coach may have said that nut cutting time is crazy.

[Sabrina Merchant]

We would get along very well.

[Zena Kaeda]

There you go, Coach Ritter. That's hilarious. Um, okay, let's keep it going and we're going to toss it over to the Big Ten. Closing it out with a conference that feels like we talked about the ACC being bottom heavy. This conference seems pretty top heavy with one big old team with a big old center in the middle of it. In ucla, having Lauren Betts and really big counterparts around her as well. They've got just a lot of length, a lot of size, a lot of strength on both sides of the ball. And now it makes you wonder who's really a number two. Obviously, the homework was done for us last year. It was clearly usc. It was obviously this number one.

[Sabrina Merchant]

They were the Big Ten champions last year.

[Zena Kaeda]

There you go. Usc, ucla, There was a. There was a clear dynamic there. This year is a little. It's a little, you know, vague. It's a little opaque. So let's figure it out. Let's talk it through. What teams are in the mix for y'? All? For number two in the Big Ten?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I feel like it's easier to answer what teams are not in the mix? I listed, like, nine teams when I was thinking about who could be the second best team in the Big Ten.

[Zena Kaeda]

Right, right, right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

But I think realistically, Michigan, Maryland, Iowa, Michigan State, maybe Ohio State.

[Ben Pickman]

Keep going. Just who else is on the list?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Sabrina, who else is on the list?

[Ben Pickman]

If you wrote down nine, I think that's seven right there. Keep going.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I also have Oregon and USC listed, but I no longer believe in them.

[Zena Kaeda]

But see, here's the thing is, like, see, these are the teams you have in the mix or not in the mix?

[Sabrina Merchant]

These are the teams I have in the mix. Yes.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's just so crazy to think, like, all of these teams, we're talking about them being number two in their conference. Meanwhile, we know what they can do on the national scale. Like, that's scary times, folks. Just trying to be number two to ucla. And these are all teams that have been ranked or in the conversation or beaten ranked teams. So, yeah, I'll say this. The Michigan loss recently to Washington. To Washington made it a little shaky. Maryland's loss, who they lose to?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Illinois.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yes, to Illinois, which did not make.

[Sabrina Merchant]

My list because of their recent losses.

[Ben Pickman]

But we should say Illinois. They did get Asia Wilson and Bam Adebayo to go to their game against Ohio State.

[Sabrina Merchant]

That was more for Jelani Cambridge, but.

[Ben Pickman]

You'Re right, but they were there. And Asia spoke to Illinois post game. So, you know, that's a memory those, those student athletes will never forget.

[Zena Kaeda]

But those, those losses had me looking at like I, I'm. I'm been locked in on. On Maryland for. Since the start of this. Even more so than like Oklahoma and the sec, but I was looking like that's a little suspect. But again, this is what conference play does. It makes you go. If you guys can hear that through the mic, but it just, it makes you question some things, so. Oh, that's a long, long list. Sabrina, Ben, help us to simmer it.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Down a little bit.

[Ben Pickman]

No, no, no, I, I can't really do that. I mean, I want to add Wisconsin to the list. No, what I will say is the thing I'm watching for in the Big Ten is are we going to get one of those, like, transitive property champions where it's like everybody beats, you know, one person. Nebraska beats Minnesota, who beats Indiana, who beats Northwestern, Yada. And like suddenly this school that like, you've never thought of is actually like the best team in the conference or one of those circles where, you know those graphics that sometimes go around where. What was that called? I'm blanking a little bit on what it's called. Where it's like, like you can get that whole circle where everyone has beaten everybody and it's like, that's the transit property.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, you're literally a transitive property circle.

[Ben Pickman]

Just in a la.

[Zena Kaeda]

I've used the transitive property to say that our Yale team was amazing because at the time that Baylor won the championship and I believe may have gone undefeated that year, we had scored the most points on them at that point. There you go. There you go.

[Ben Pickman]

National champion. Congratulations.

[Zena Kaeda]

We were national champions.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Runner up.

[Ben Pickman]

Runners up. Congratulations.

[Zena Kaeda]

Okay, sorry.

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[Ben Pickman]

I guess, I guess if I'm going for one school though, like, like, to me it is still Michigan and I know that they lost to Washington and I know that they beat Oregon in overtime and very unconvincing. Fast double overtime. Yeah. Unconvincing fashion as well. So they're not exactly out to a rousing start in the conference, but it's hard for me to get that game against UConn out of my mind when I think about the ceiling of their. That team. Right. You know, that's as high quality of a second half, especially as we have seen all year. That's as much as UConn, the supposed juggernaut has been pushed all year. We saw, you know, elite defense that very much. Michigan, you know, flipped a switch. They adapted on the fly. I think that serves them really well in the Big Ten. It'll serve them really well in the NCAA tournament. We saw premier shot making from Silas Swartz. We saw Olivia Olson play a really good game and she is one of the best, you know, two way wings, two way guards in the conference, if not the country, a really, really good defender, especially at her size. So I think they have a lot of the pieces. They might be a big short as we have talked about, but I think the ceiling of Michigan is if I'm going to kind of close my eyes and bet on one team to play UCLA in the Big Ten tournament final to go the furthest alongside the Bruins in the NCAA tournament. I think deep down, like the. That's the pick I'm going to go with.

[Sabrina Merchant]

They also get UCLA at home during the Big Ten regular season, which is nice for their prospects there.

[Zena Kaeda]

Okay. And that. All right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Okay.

[Zena Kaeda]

All right. Okay. So Michigan, I'm not mad at this pick at all, by the way. I agree with you. I think that they have an identity offensively that will carry you a long ways. Sabrina, who are you thinking? Who you thinking is a number two?

[Sabrina Merchant]

You know, I. Every time I try to say nice things about Maryland, inevitably the bottom just immediately falls out.

[Zena Kaeda]

I know.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So I don't want to do it again. But I love Alucia Coninwa. I love Yarden Garzone. I love the pace that they play with. You know, I'm obviously very high on Kentucky. The only team to have beaten Kentucky this year, Maryland. So there's just. There's a lot to like there, except for the fact that, like, the bodies just keep falling out.

[Ad Voice]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

Like they lost Kayleen Smichel for the season. You know, they are. I don't think Brie McDaniel is coming back. I mean, there's just more and more people who rotation is just getting smaller and smaller and it's harder to do that in a conference that is as deep as the Big Ten, where you just have to come out every single night ready to go. I worry that the strength of this conference is just going to leave them brittle by the time we get to March. So I like Maryland a lot. I think Brendan Freese has just done this over and over again. I trust experienced coaches, but I think Ben's right about Michigan. It's not Even just that UConn game, I think about the game against South Carolina last year, you know, when they came in, very first game of her college career, style of swords and just taken it to the defending champions, playing that game really close and it's like, oh my God, is South Carolina gonna lose their first game coming in their repeat bid? Like the firepower and the big game moxie of swords and Olson and Holloway, it's just really hard to overlook that. And yeah, I just think you really need a lot of perimeter shot creation to succeed in the tournament and Michigan's got that in spades.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah. And the other reason, you know, on the Maryland front, like not only from the injuries perspective, you saw, especially in that Illinois game, like Adi Mack looked like a freshman. Right. Like you saw that you can't put that many and she had been looking so good in non conference play and also putting up significant minutes like getting a lot of burn. And you realize, okay, life comes at you fast and you realize you cannot put your entire offense and your hopes in a rookie dropping 20 points a game and hitting game winners, which they were doing in the beginning of the season.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So also Michigan has the best defensive rating of any team in the Big Ten. So a good place to hang your hat.

[Zena Kaeda]

Very much so. Both sides of the ball.

[Sabrina Merchant]

UCLA is just crushing it offensively. Like it's not even close in terms of the overall net ratings. But you look at defensive ratings, Michigan's number one.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, it doesn't hurt that like the average height I feel like of Michigan is just 6 foot, guard wings and then tall.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's a very switchable lineup.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, very switchable. That's what they do very well. All right, I feel pretty good about where we're landing. I'm going to go with you on Michigan, Sabrina. Maryland. I feel weird not saying Ohio State. Any thoughts on that one?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean they might have the best player outside of UCLA in the conference, right. Jelani Cambridge. So you look at the game that she just put up against Illinois plus 40 points with, as Ben mentioned, Asia Wilson in attendance. It's a nice way to kick off the start of the Big Ten season.

[Ben Pickman]

So yeah, will be interesting again. I think we've used the cliche thrown off our scent a few times throughout this podcast, but to use it one more time, Ohio State blown out by UConn and also lost to UCLA. Those are their only two losses on the schedule. So, you know, I think it's still a little bit of wait and see. Maybe those two losses are anomalies. Maybe they're Just worse than those teams and can beat up on everyone else. That's still a wait and see question as it relates to the Buckeyes.

[Zena Kaeda]

All right, well, let's close this out. That's our Power 4 conferences. And on the other side of this break, we have a special moment we want to talk about. Okay, I have to tell you, I.

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[Ben Pickman]

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[Zena Kaeda]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Kaeda]

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[Zena Kaeda]

All right. We sometimes get really great letters and emails and we appreciate all of you that reach out to us. It was really, really nice to hear from someone recently and it spurred something new that we're going to start doing called our journalist corner. And it's an opportunity to get to know our journalists on this pod. Which by the way, I do not consider myself a journalist or reporter because I am not in the rooms in the way that Ben And Sabrina and Chantelle are. I am not in the trenches in the newsrooms at the level that they are. I'm not breaking news like they often are. I'm a commentator. I look at sports and I think about them and I analyze them from my perspective. But I have to give a lot of respect for what Ben and Sabrina do on a day to day basis. It's not easy. And you guys are inspiring other folks to get into this line of business, and I think that's really cool. So we received an email from Remy Kim out here in the bay that has listened to our show, loves our show, has been inspired to even start covering Stanford women's basketball as a result of our show. We appreciate the note and it makes me want to think about, you know, Ben, Sabrina, when you think about your career and when you first started to where you are now, any stories that stand out to you that left an impression on you that might inspire Remy Kim or other journalists around the country.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I'm going to throw out some of my early foibles just to inspire you to keep on going. Because when I started doing this, I was. I felt so very over my head. I mean, I remember when I first started covering Duke athletics when I was in college. This is back like before smartphones, this is how old I am. So I had to get like a physical recorder, you know, to record things. Or if you had like a fancy ipod, you could get like this attachment on the ipod that allowed you to record things. But I would literally borrow the recorder from our newsroom office. So I had to like go run there before any story and then, you know, get to wherever I was that I was like interviewing somebody. The first time that I got to do a one on one with a Duke women's basketball coach at the time, I was so excited because I got to go in like the Duke athletic offices building and like I got to ride the elevator and like get to her office. I'm so excited. I have all these questions laid out and like, I literally asked the first question and my recorder just dies and there's no battery. And I'm looking and I'm like, what am I supposed to do now?

[Ben Pickman]

Oh, no.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Looking down, I'm like, I got nothing. And I was so nervous. I just like didn't know what to tell Coach P. And she just kept talking and talking and I'm just like shorthand writing as fast as I can, trying to figure this out.

[Zena Kaeda]

Frantically writing, I'm sure.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And I end up using one quote that I was Certain that I had transcribed correctly from this interview, but nothing else beyond that because I was not sure if I had the actual accurate language.

[Zena Kaeda]

First of all, shout out to your integrity. Okay? You were like, I am not gonna shorthand these quotes.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I should have just told her that I needed to restart the interview because I didn't have a reporter. But I was a freshman in college and freaking out.

[Zena Kaeda]

That's so sweet. I just love the fact that you powered through it. And you know what? If you if that. That's how they used to do it way back in. So at this point, you're a vet. That's awesome. But good memory. Just to note now, make sure your phones are charged. Make sure everything's charged and ready to go before you go inside.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I have so many backup chargers on me at all times now.

[Zena Kaeda]

There you go. I love that.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Ben should know. He uses my pocket charger sometimes when we're on a bus.

[Zena Kaeda]

So, Ben, anything like that, Anything that stands out to you and lessons you've learned?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean, I remember, I think the very first interview I did as a collegiate journalist at the University of Wisconsin was when the Milwaukee Bucks were actually holding training camp at the university. And I had pitched and coordinated and wanted to do a story on the homecoming of a former UW turned Milwaukee Bucks, at least during that training camp. Guard named Marcus Landry, brother of Carl Landry, for all you Golden State warriors. You know, that one year, One year.

[Zena Kaeda]

That one year he was with Golden State. But yes, okay.

[Ben Pickman]

And I just remember, like, being so, so nervous and shaky and, like, truly, like, hands sweaty, a ton of anxiety. Writing everything out on, like, a big legal pad. All these questions, all these versions, thinking so much about it. And I just think back of, like, boy, it must have been so awkward to, like, talk to me as a college freshman who has no idea, like, really what they're doing, who's just trying to wing it, who, like, had ambition and a good idea that they wanted to explore, but really, like, didn't know anything. And I started. I mean, I swung big. I was like, I'm gonna pitch a story on the NBA player who's returning to school. Like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a non rev sport. It wasn't just, like, a random story. It was like, let me go do this. And I think a couple years back in, like, the moving process, I read that story back and I was like, oh, my God, what was I doing? So it is so weird reading back the early stories.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm like, this is Just, I don't wanna attach my name to this anymore.

[Zena Kaeda]

Right. That's amazing. And, you know, I feel like it kind of was par for the course for what you're now doing, like, swinging big, going for the big stories. That's what you gotta do. You gotta start out big. That's pretty dope. I wrote a story in grad school when I was a pseudo grad assistant for the women's basketball team at Wake Forest. And it was on Derica Hamby. And I was happy that I did that story because it sparked a friendship with Derica that still goes on now. But that story is so bad. It was so long and redundant. And I was just like, I've read it back, like two, three years ago. I read it back and I was like, I really hope Derek does not see this. This was just not a good story. I hope Wake Forest has archived that thing. But, yeah, I used to do. I was on the Yale Daily News doing multimedia stuff, more so like this, right? Talking about concussions, talking about volleyball. So it's always interesting to hear from you guys, like real journalists that have now done this and went on to write stories and break news and profile people and have fully charged recorders while you're doing that. It's dope to see the growth.

[Ben Pickman]

I like that you say the multimedia part because I was recently talking to a college friend. We used to do these video post game encore reports. And I have to delete some storage off of my phone. I don't know if anyone else is getting that iPhone pop up. And I have these videos from years and years and years ago that take up so much space. And we were watching some in the back and they are awful. Like, what were we doing? What were we wearing? What were we doing?

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, it's so funny because I used to, like, try to use a reporter voice. Like, and I'm standing outside of jll. It's just like, who taught you that? And mind you, no one taught me that. I clearly was just watching television thinking I was doing something. But Remy Kim, I hope you enjoyed these stories in our journalist corner and anyone else that is aspiring to be a reporter, a journalist, or just wants to hear when Ben and Sabrina weren't perfect at their jobs. Okay, guys, that is going to be all for today. We appreciate you joining us for our conference play overview. Let us know if you got any thoughts. Did we leave some teams out in all these questions? Are there questions that we didn't ask about your conference? Obviously. Let us know. We're also going to be back with more on the cba. By the time we're recording this, the deadline has happened. We know that there's gonna be some new something in the coming days. So if you haven't already, follow our show because you don't wanna miss out on all of it. And if you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe. Tell your friends and your mama to check us out. I have a lot of friends who tell me that their mom likes our show, so we're mom friendly, which is a good thing. And make sure you head on over to our partner, the Yahoo Sports Hub for more content. Sports.yahoo.com womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Cato with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.

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