Paige Bueckers vs Caitlin Clark : How Do They Stack Up?

Summary

No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Episode: Paige Bueckers vs Caitlin Clark: How Do They Stack Up?
Release Date: June 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of No Offseason, hosts Zena Caida, Sabrina Merchant, Sabreena Merchant, and Ben Pickman dive deep into the ongoing debate between WNBA stars Paige Bueckers and Caitlin Clark. Alongside this primary discussion, they address significant team changes, player injuries, current game highlights, and the broader cultural impact of these rising athletes in women's basketball.

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Main Discussion: Paige Bueckers vs. Caitlin Clark

Zena Caida opens the conversation by highlighting the longstanding debate surrounding Paige Bueckers and Caitlin Clark, focusing on their impact on the game, cultural influence, and personal treatment within the league.

• Comparison of Roles and Fit:

  • Ben Pickman discusses the recent departure of Dewana Bonner from the Indiana Fever, emphasizing how her role shifted from a starter to a bench player, which ultimately led to her being waived. He points out, “Player B has the 5.6 turnovers. That's got to be Clark.” (33:20).

• Statistical Analysis:

  • Jessica Hawke presents a side-by-side statistical comparison of both players through their first 12 WNBA games:
    • Paige Bueckers (Player A): 17.7 points, 5.8 assists, 4.6 rebounds, 45.7% FG
    • Caitlin Clark (Player B): 16.8 points, 6.3 assists, 5.6 turnovers, 5.3 rebounds, 37.3% FG
  • She remarks, “Their numbers through 12 games are very, very similar.” (33:32)

• Impact and Visibility:

  • Ben Pickman notes, “Caitlin takes layups and threes. She is famously very averse to shooting shots in the mid-range.” (36:01)
  • Zena Caida adds that Caitlin’s flashy plays and media presence have significantly amplified her visibility compared to Paige’s more measured rise.

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Dewana Bonner's Departure from Indiana Fever

The hosts delve into the recent news of Dewana Bonner being waived by the Indiana Fever after nine games, exploring the implications for both Bonner and the team.

• Role Changes and Team Dynamics:

  • Jessica Hawke explains, “Dewana Bonner's role is one of the big things that changed... she had the lowest minutes average since her rookie season in 2009.” (04:49)

• Speculations on the 'Fit':

  • Zena Caida questions, “What does this mean? The fit did not work out?” (02:49)

• Future Prospects:

  • Ben Pickman speculates potential destinations for Bonner, suggesting teams like the Phoenix Mercury or New York Liberty could be interested, noting, “Being super clear on what she's looking for and what the team is looking for is probably of utmost importance this time around.” (09:09)

• Player Empowerment:

  • The discussion shifts to the broader theme of player agency in the WNBA. Ben Pickman states, “Players are agitating for new circumstances and being granted those wishes is actually pretty common in the WNBA space.” (15:32)

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Injury Update: Caitlin Clark

An update on Caitlin Clark's recent groin injury is provided, detailing the circumstances and potential impact on her season.

• Incident Details:

  • Zena Caida describes the injury moment: “Clark... ends up going to the ground and that's when she gets up holding her leg.” (28:09)

• Recovery and Impact:

  • Jessica Hawke outlines her status as day-to-day and the importance of her upcoming games, including the Commissioner's Cup Championship.

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Current WNBA Games and Highlights

The hosts review key matchups and standout performances from the week's games.

• Washington Mystics vs. Minnesota Lynx:

  • Jessica Hawke highlights the Mystics' impressive 68-64 win, praising their resilience despite missing key players: “Washington continues to compete. They continue to be really impressive.” (20:04)

• Coach of the Year Candidates:

  • Ben Pickman and Jessica Hawke discuss potential candidates, notably Sidney Johnson of the Washington Mystics, lauding his coaching performance: “Sidney Johnson should be in the WNBA coach of the year conversation.” (21:19)

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Rookie Seasons and Player Impact

The conversation shifts to the exceptional performance of WNBA rookies, emphasizing the increased skill and immediate impact of the current class.

• Skill Development:

  • Ben Pickman attributes the readiness of current rookies to enhanced training and professionalization: “We're in the most skilled generation of college prospects.” (41:41)

• Immediate Contributions:

  • Hosts acknowledge that rookies are not only putting up impressive stats but also significantly contributing to their teams' successes.

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Cultural Impact of Paige Bueckers and Caitlin Clark

The episode explores how both players are influencing basketball culture beyond the court, each in their unique way.

• Fashion and Media Presence:

  • Jessica Hawke notes Paige's involvement in fashion events and media appearances, contrasting it with Caitlin’s more spontaneous celebrity moments: “Paige was at every fashion week event, party, U.S. Open.” (43:37)

• Representation and Advocacy:

  • Ben Pickman discusses Paige’s role in advocating for Black women in the WNBA, enhancing her cultural significance: “Paige has been a part of the basketball discourse for so long.” (44:30)

• Public Perception:

  • The hosts debate why Caitlin Clark has become a more prominent figure in media chatter, attributing it to her flashy plays and the timing of her rise: “Caitlin was this supernova.” (48:31)

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

As the episode wraps up, the hosts express excitement for future matchups between Bueckers and Clark, anticipating how their careers and cultural influences will continue to shape the WNBA.

• 期待未来对决:

  • Zena Caida remarks, “It's fun to see someone that consistently has the ball in their hands be as efficient, be as fun, be as flashy as both of these players have been.” (51:36)

• Emerging Talent:

  • The discussion concludes with optimism for the continued rise of talented rookies and their contributions to the league’s growth and popularity.

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Notable Quotes

• Zena Caida: “The fit did not work out.” (02:49)
• Jessica Hawke: “Player B is Caitlin Clark. Player A was Paige Bueckers.” (33:32)
• Ben Pickman: “Players are agitating for new circumstances and being granted those wishes is actually pretty common in the WNBA space.” (15:32)
• Jessica Hawke: “Sidney Johnson should be in the WNBA coach of the year conversation.” (21:19)
• Jessica Hawke: “Caitlin was this supernova.” (48:31)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of No Offseason offers an in-depth analysis of two of the WNBA’s brightest stars, providing listeners with a comprehensive look at their careers, impacts, and the evolving landscape of women's basketball. Whether you're a dedicated fan or new to the sport, the discussion illuminates the dynamics shaping the league today.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to the transcript provided and are indicative of where the quotes occur within the episode.

Transcript

[Zena Caida]

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[Zena Caida]

Hello everyone and welcome to no Off Season presented by Amazon Business. I'm Zena Caida.

[Ben Pickman]

I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Jessica Hawke]

And I'm Ben Pickman.

[Zena Caida]

And today on the show we are talking Paige versus Caitlyn. Now, assuming that Caitlin gets on the court against Paige after missing Thursday's game against LA, that's a whole nother story. But the Paige vs Caitlyn debate has always been there. The conversation about how they impact the game, how they've impacted the culture, how they're treated, all about the similarities, the differences. We're going to get into that today and I promise you this is going to be a good conversation because they are very, very different while also being very similar. Anyways, there are some other games outside of that happening and we gotta talk about them. After playing nine games with the Fever, Dewana Bonner has said goodbye. She only started in three of those games and she's been waived by the team. She has been out for the last several games for personal reasons and she's requested to move on for the Fever and saying in a Fever issued statement that the quote fit did not work out. So I want to know what does this mean? The fit did not work out? When you think about it, they've now set her free. She can go amongst the Wild and the WNBA and figure out where the fit does work out. So exactly what does this mean? The fit did not work out? We're going to get into that in a second. But on the simplest level, by waving her Indiana, they've set her free. They're going to pay her prorated salary. But once she's out of the 48 hour waiver window, assuming no one has picked her up, she'll become a free agent and she'll be able to negotiate her spot on another team for whatever salary for whatever fit she finds or deems to be best. So I'm a little confused, I ain't gonna lie. And we have also seen that at the time that we're recording this, Duana Bonner also posted on her Instagram, making sure to share to, you know, the audience, fans, et cetera, that she's not a quitter and essentially alluding to, you'll see, wasn't a foot for her and she is going to find a way to another team. But my question is the fit seemed pretty predictable in terms of you knew who you were going to play alongside. Caitlin Clark was going to be there. Kelsey Mitchell was going to be there. Aaliyah Boston was going to be there. You also knew the head coach and Stephanie White, having been your coach in Connecticut, coming over to Indiana, you imagine the same kind of coaching philosophies and principles probably translating over there. How it plays out with the personnel obviously can differ but the fit did not work out. So I want to know what changed between what Dejuana, DNA fever, whomever expected in terms of Dewana being on this team and what actually happened?

[Jessica Hawke]

I think it's a good question, Xena. I think there is some, that is some answers we still don't know about. I would say top line. Like it seems like dejuana Bonner's role is one of the big things that changed and it changed from the start of the season to her ninth and final game with the Indiana Fever. Right. She started the first three games of the year, then was coming off the bench the final six. She had yet to play more than 27 minutes in a game this season. She'd taken four shots or fewer in five of her nine games. Her minutes total, her minutes average had been the lowest since her rookie season in 2009. That's when she was back first a bench player with the Phoenix Mercury. So just in terms of role, like Dejuana Bonner seemingly was very important to this revamped Fever team. We saw her actually on the COVID of Sports Illustrated, right. She was in that cover photo shoot and seemingly a sign that, like, you're going to be a central part of everything we're doing. And very quickly it seemed like, no, that wasn't the case. And so June 10th comes around. That is Deana Bonner's last game. And then from what I understand, in the kind of, I guess 10 days, two weeks since, like the team and Dewana were trying to figure out next steps here, whether that is, you know, Indiana exploring a trade. And they did explore trade options around the league. She obviously, you mentioned her salary. Like she has a big salary number. Not a lot of teams can take on that number. Then it's a question of, do we release her? When do you release her? The timing of the release is significant because, you know, it had been 10 days when Dewana Bonner was released after Arie McDonald's final game with the Indiana Fever, which made it so that they could cut Dewana Bonner and in a corresponding transaction on the very same day, sign Arie McDonald and backfill that space. Right. The timing there of those two transactions does not seem to be a coincidence, in my opinion. You know, to the question of what else don't we know what else happened? I think it's a little bit open ended, but clearly there were fissures between the two. Indiana and their GM Amracox said, like Dewana being a veteran player, they wanted to, you know, be respectful, you know, pay someone who's, you know, been in league 15, 16 years the courtesy and give her another opportunity to play. Because, you know, it's pretty clear that by the end of this, like the two sides had reached a point where you say, Dewana Bonner, wave goodbye to Indiana. Indiana also waved goodbye to Dewana Bonner. There were irreconcilable differences pretty clearly which led to the parting of ways in this circumstance.

[Zena Caida]

What's so uncomfortable and like unfortunate about these type of situations is that we are all left to speculate, right? We'll never really know what happened. And I want to make sure I read this quote properly from Dewana's Instagram a quitter? Nah, never been that. But when the time comes, quote, let's just make sure the apologies are just as loud as the disrespect. End quote. In due time. DB crown emoji. Now, when you hear that and you read that, fans, people that are looking from the outside in the speculation around what was said, what was happened, what changed is it's kind of like when you're recruited to a college and they're like, you're going to be our star player and you are going to get all this time and we are going to be running offense around you, and then the player gets there and the rug is pulled out from under them and they end up training, transferring, and like, you know, whatever the case may be, we've seen this happen on the college level, but you also wonder, like, so there's an instinct to want to go to that side. The rug was pulled out from under dejuanna Bonner. She expected a certain type of role that was bigger than what she ended up with. But at the same time, it's like, how big could that role have been with a Caitlin Clark on the team, Right? And so you also feel for the team, and the team can't come out and put a crown emoji on an Instagram post and say certain things, right? So it's like, it's just always awkward.

[Ben Pickman]

They should.

[Zena Caida]

Because you're just like, they should. They could. I don't know, I mean, how professional would it be? I don't know. Some of these loss posters that they put up on Instagram be petty as hell. Okay? It is so petty sometimes. So I'm like, you could be petty, but in this case, you want to be professional, you want to move on. In their case, they've moved on and brought in Arie McDonald, who has done phenomenally for the Fever throughout this season. But now, Sabrina, the question is, dejuana Bonner, her moving on, what does that look like? What are the possible scenarios there?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, just real quickly, the more I think about it, the Liberty could totally use crown emojis on tweets. Like, that's absolutely within their wheelhouse. As far as dejuana Bonner moving on, I'm just curious, as you mentioned, what role she could have been expecting in Indiana. She's at best the fourth option. This is a team that is probably not going to play a lot of too big just based on their style of play and the way their spacing needs to work. For Caitlin, I don't really know what more could have been asked for Dewana and, like, credit to Lexi hall, who ends up taking that starting spot three games or four games into the season. She's been phenomenal, right? So it's not a matter of, like, even DB not playing well. It's just Lexi is a perfect fit next to what Indiana is trying to do with Kelsey Mitchell and Caitlin Clark in that backcourt. So I think at this stage of her career, Dewan of Honor is pretty clearly a four, and Indiana was trying to shoehorn her as a three to start the season. And that's, to me, where the disconnect sort of started. And then, you know, they ended up using her as a backup for those games that she came off the bench. But for a player who's been starting for so long and been an all star for so long, it's probably weird, you know, to be coming off the bench when you thought a certain role was happening, entering this situation. So I'd look at teams that, like, probably need a little power forward help. We talked about this a little bit on our last episode. So just, you know, to keep an idea of the teams that, like, have the room to sign a minimum contract like that. That could be Phoenix, that could be New York, Golden State. Connecticut and Washington have money, although I don't really see them as being situations where Dewana would go to, considering she just left Connecticut and Washington is very much in a rebuild mode. You can recall during their off season, they signed zero external free agents, so it doesn't seem like a really potential dawn of Honor destination. So I guess if she would want to go to contender, the liberties seem to make the most sense to me, especially without Jonquil Jones for a little while. Just having a little more rebounding presence. But I think being super clear on what she's looking for and what the team is looking for is probably of utmost importance this time around.

[Jessica Hawke]

Just two things off of that. Sabrina, I mean, back to the Indiana side for one quick second. I thought it was really interesting as I was reflecting on what transpired here to some of the conversations that I had at training camp with Amber Cox and Kelly Kraskoff, the kind of two lead decision makers on the basketball side for the Fever, because while so many people wanted to anoint Indiana immediately as a championship contender, one of the things that they kind of stressed throughout trainer camp was like, we have to see how all of these pieces fit together. Like they were under no, you know, false pretense, at least publicly, that, like, everything was immediately going to click in the way that some people thought just because they had, you know, signed multiple former All Stars, they recognized that, like, sometimes, you know, you make decisions and they don't pan out the way you expect and do. I think that meant they expected Dewana Bonner to play just nine games and then, you know, request to. To, you know, a trade to not be with the Indiana Fever and then to them eventually release her. Like, I don't necessarily think they expected that to happen by, you know, the end of June, but I don't think they thought like, this is a shoo in 100%. Everything is going to click together in terms of future destinations. I mean, Sabrina mapped it out. I would just add that in some of the reporting we did over the offseason, Phoenix, you know, has been throwing out a bunch. Phoenix, did you know they heavily courted Dewana this offseason in terms of potentially bringing her in another dark horse over the off season? And we reported this back in March. Minnesota actually also kicked the can looking at dejuana Bonner. They also tried to acquire Alyssa Thomas before she was eventually traded to the Phoenix Mercury. Sabrina didn't just throw them out as a possibility here because there's a lot of like, cap mechanics and roster mechanics, right, Sabrina, that would have to happen for Minnesota to even be in play here. But it's just interesting to know in this conversation that, like, they were another team that was interested and had some conversations with her too, over the winter.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, that Minnesota one is very surprising. I think Phoenix Mercury are much less surprising because obviously dejuanna Bonner, or maybe not obviously Dewana Bonner's fiance, Alyssa Thomas plays for the Phoenix Mercury. So I mean, how much does that play into things? I know there's also the connection of her old teammate Brianna Jones from the Connecticut sun, now playing in Atlanta, and that team doing really, really well. What are the possibilities of those two locations?

[Jessica Hawke]

I think Phoenix still, to me, feels like the frontrunner here for the reasons you just threw out and what Sabrina was talking about. But I think it is notable and now we're getting a little bit in the transaction weeds that on Thursday, Phoenix did make a series of transactions. They announced that Lexi Held was going to be out with this, a lung injury for an, you know, an unspecified period of time. And more importantly, they announced the release that they had released Megan McConnell, a guard who played just one game for them and had gotten injured. But they also, in a corresponding move, basically backfilled a roster spot by signing Keanu Williams, a former Stanford guard who had been A draft pick of the Seattle Storm a few years ago. And so it's kind of interesting that, you know, with all this in the ether, the conversations about where's Dejuana Bon are going to end up. Phoenix, in theory, did not have to sign Keanu Williams because, you know, maybe that could have been the Dewana Bonner spot. Now, if they want to sign to want to Bonner, they're still going to have to make another roster move. Maybe it's cutting a Williams, maybe it's cutting another player, but, like, the door was open for them in the short term to just kind of slide her in, in theory. And they made a decision, at least an early decision, to say, not so fast. You know, if this is going to happen, there's going to need to be some other corresponding moves that occur here.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, let's get out of the trade transaction weeds, because I feel like that could be an entire podcast on its own. And let's get back to Dejuana, because I do think that there is something to be said about Dejuana being like, I don't have to force myself to sit here and play in a situation that I clearly have noticed does not fit for me. And you know, alluding to her Instagram post and her reaction to all of this, that also isn't serving me in other ways beyond just the actual basketball. How much do we think that Duanna Bonner getting out of Indiana and is about player freedom and empowerment? And we think about this is the last year before the next CBA is being negotiated in the next cba and there's all these free agents that are going to open up after this season. There's going to be a lot of moves where people are going to be like, yo, this doesn't serve me. Basketball or not, this doesn't serve me. How much do we look at this move by Bonner and we're like, yeah, this is an indication that we're in a new era of player freedom and empowerment.

[Ben Pickman]

I actually think this type of player agency has been a part of the WNBA for a very long time. I mean, free agency, the, you know, the specific move that got Dewana from Connecticut to Indiana is relatively new, that players are able to move that freely during the off seasons. But trade requests, you know, contract divorces, a familiar term in WNBA parlance, Like, this has been a part of the WNBA landscape for a very long time. I mean, you think about stars like Sylvia Fowles and Elena Dulladon who demanded trades and sat and were moved mid season. You Think about a few years ago when Tina Charles went to Phoenix and it didn't quite work out, and midway through the year, they ended up separating. I think the only real difference here is that Bonner had a little bit less trade value because she was on an unguaranteed contract. So the Fever could just waive her and then a new team could sign her for a lesser amount as opposed to the Fever worrying about a cap hit and having to fit that into a new team's contracts situation. But as far as, like, veteran players exercising their own free will and like, wanting a new situation, I think that's. That's pretty familiar. I mean, like, just last season we saw Marina Mabry trade request. Right. That was fulfilled to go to Connecticut. Right?

[Zena Caida]

Yeah.

[Ben Pickman]

And, you know, we'll see how that turned out. But I think the point is, is that players agitating for new circumstances and being granted those wishes is actually pretty common in the WNBA space.

[Zena Caida]

I mean, we saw Jewel Lloyd do it, we saw Kelsey Plum end up doing it. And yes, Marina Mabry got out of Chicago. She did have another trade request. That's not.

[Ben Pickman]

Has not yet been answered.

[Zena Caida]

Right. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And I love the way you put it. Agitating. Go ahead.

[Jessica Hawke]

The difference though, to me is that I feel like there is a broader, like, a newfound cultural relevance when all of this happens. Like, you know, Twitter, I guess, was a thing. I don't think WNBA Twitter was this, like, robust, you know, highly scrutinized, highly talked about marketplace when some of those other trades requests you mentioned historically were being made. Sabrina. And so I do think it's kind of interesting to see, like, a team shopping a player in the middle of a season, a player expressing disinterest with a franchise publicly, like, some of the kind of chatter that comes with it. I'm not saying it's all like, you know, Xena mentioned some of the speculation. Like, that's not necessarily always so healthy or, you know, we're not encouraging that, I guess, from where we sit. But, like, it is notable to me that we're at this point where, like, and maybe this is because it's a Fever player too. Like, I do think that that is part of it. Like, there's way more discourse and conversation about Dewana Bonner landing spots than there was about Marina Mabry last year or this off season. But I do think it is, like, a sign that, like, people care about the rumor mill and the kind of trade requests and the landing spots. And, like, the chatter is very different than it was 10 years ago. And I think that's kind of interesting as we reflect on, like, how these moves are happening in a new era because Sabrina mentioned some of the notable ones. I'm sure there are dozens of other trade requests we know and don't know about that, like, were never just reported because people weren't there to report it. Now with changing in the WNB media climate, like, we just are a little bit more plugged in. More people are covering the league. There's just a different information flow. It still pales in comparison to like, what happens when an NBA player requests a trade, in my opinion. And. But I do think we're kind of seeing a more similar circumstance than we did, you know, 10 years ago.

[Zena Caida]

Say, I agree. It's a really great point. You know, this is exactly what you want. As Candace Parker said, like, let's talk and critique and evaluate the league. And this does feel different than all those other circumstances. So we'll see what happens when it comes to Dejuana Bonner. But for now, let's talk a little bit right before we get into this Paige and Caitlin conversation. There were some games, a lot of games last week, uh, and there were some really, really big underdog wins, um, and also underdog games. Even if they didn't pull out the win, there were some really competitive games overall. Uh, Mystics defeated the Lynx. Dallas beat Atlanta. Yes, folks, it happened. Uh, and Chicago came out on top against la and I was vividly there as the Valks missed the three pointer to take it to overtime against the Liberty, who also had just gone through a two game losing streak. Obviously missing some stars though. But yeah, it's been interesting for the underdogs, but also this is what we expect out of the wnba. That's why on any given night you never know what can happen, who can pull out. Ben, I'll start with you. Any big takeaways from this week's game so far?

[Jessica Hawke]

Yeah, I just want to highlight the Washington game. They're, they're 68, 64 win over Minnesota. They outscore Minnesota by five points in the fourth quarter. And yeah, Minnesota did not have Nafisa Collier in that game, but Washington did not have Brittany Sykes, who's been, you know, their best player at the start of this season. I want to throw. You know, Washington continues to compete. They continue to be really impressive. And I do think, like, there's a lot of chatter right now about Coach of the Year. We've thrown it out on our show a bunch. You know, we've Mentioned Natalie Nakase, Carl Smesco, Nate Tibbets. Like, you know, I think Sidney Johnson is. We'll see how the Washington Mystics do. But, like, Sidney Johnson should be in the WNBA coach of the year conversation through the first, you know, six weeks of the season. I don't think there's any real debate about that. I mean, people had Washington as, like, a bottom feeder in the WNBA this year. What are they doing? Who are they hiring? They didn't make any moves. And as we tape this on June 26, they're 7 and 8. I think they're right in the playoff picture or right on the cut line with, you know, teams like Indiana, like the Valkyries, like the Aces. I mean, Washington plays really hard. They play really connected. They've been one of the surprises of the season. And I think that's notable. Like, no matter who's on the court, they're going to compete. And I think he and the staff and obviously the players deserve a lot of credit for that.

[Zena Caida]

That actually relates to my takeaway from this week.

[Ben Pickman]

I was going to say I'm at the point where I have, like, six coaches in the coach of the year conversation. So it's probably too many. Too many. Here we are. Sidney Johnson belongs, though. He definitely belongs.

[Zena Caida]

I absolutely agree. I think that that's a good sign. It's a good thing that there's so many coaches that are coming into their new roles and immediately being able to take the talent on their teams and, you know, convert it into something positive. On that note, before Sabrina, I get to your takeaway. My takeaway. Shakira Austin. Holy. We literally just had a conversation around the power Fours, and I feel like we might have disrespected her because I don't think we said her name nearly enough or even. And she's. Well, yeah, yeah. But when. Yeah, okay. Fair, fair, fair, fair. When Stephanie Dolson's out there, she's like a four. She's. I mean, she could be a four, right? We'll see. We're seeing four, like, elements of her, right? There's a three, four, and then the four, five. She could be a four, five. And, man, her game has expanded significantly. And again, she's someone that, you know, we haven't seen a ton of because of the injuries that she's had in her career, but, whew, she looks good. And shout out to the Washington Mystics for utilizing her in the best way and also utilizing her energy, because you gotta be able to utilize her energy in a positive way and direct it in the right way as well as direct her skills. Sabrina, what about your takeaway?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I'm just gonna make it a clean sweep. Like that was a really, really impressive Mystics performance. The Lynx came into the game as the leading fourth quarter net rating in the WNBA about +2.23 points per 100 possessions. As Ben mentioned, they got outscored. They couldn't do anything. Like I think they didn't hit a field goal for the last eight minutes of that game, maybe up until like the final minute, but just a really, really gutty impressive Washington performance. And like Ben said, without Britney Sykes to do that with Shakira Austin, who plays most for minutes with Kiki Ariaf and Leah Edwards. So I think we're going to call her five.

[Zena Caida]

No, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right, you're right.

[Ben Pickman]

It's fine. No, I, I just think it's maybe the most impressive win in the season, honestly, what the Mystics were able to do there.

[Zena Caida]

Agreed. Agreed. I'm really excited about this Mystics team. Shout out Jamila Wideman GM over there. She's done a great job with the rookies, but also the team's looking strong. All right with that, don't go anywhere because coming up, we're talking Paige and Caitlin how can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items and fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support [e-mail] this episode is sponsored by.

[Sabrina Merchant]

The San Diego State University Sports MBA Program, a full time in person graduate program that trains students for sports business roles with team front offices, agencies, venues, brands and more. The program's MBA curriculum has all the numbers heavy content of a typical mba, but adds a sports focus by exploring themes such as growth of women's sports, labor relations, athletes rights and social responsibility. SDSU Sports MBA students study abroad for a week in the Dominican Republic to learn about the many ways in which MLB's presence impacts the country. Throughout their studies, students can gain experience as interns, consultants and part time employees with sports organizations throughout Southern California, including San Diego Wave FC. Applications are currently being accepted through July 1st. For an August 2025 start, visit SDSU EDU no Offseason to learn more and apply. When pro defensive end Cam Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks. He's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawk to learn how AI can help being.

[Zena Caida]

Innovative with how to have success and how to formul that success. That synergy between AI and a business coming together, it's like coaches game plan.

[Sabrina Merchant]

As well as the player.

[Zena Caida]

AI is creating a perfect plan and it's the business like hey, we have this imperfect solution. Let's meld them together and see what happens.

[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Caida]

Okay, so like I mentioned at the top, we are recording on Thursday afternoon. Assuming that Caitlin Clark is back on the court tonight. She missed last night's game against LA due to a groin injury. It will be the first time that 2025 number one pick Paige Beckers and 2024 number one pick Caitlin Clark will square off against each other in the wnba. And seeing how these are two of the most recent number one draft picks and they're both point guards, they're both white girls from the mid, it only makes sense that we had to take some time to break down their histories, their games, their stats and talk about how they stack up on the court but also in the general culture. Before we get into that though, Ben, give us a quick update on what's happening with Clark and this, I want to call it idiotic because it could have been avoided, this groin injury. In my opinion that happened very late in a game against Seattle. Tell us what you know.

[Jessica Hawke]

Yeah, I mean Indiana did not specify when they kind of announced this injury when exactly it occurred. Stephanie White merely said on Thursday that Caitlin Clark was day to day and they're kind of monitoring how she responds to treatment that will determine whether she plays on Friday in the second game of a back to back against the Dallas Wings. And then Indiana Fever have a couple days off and then they'll play the Minnesota Lynx on Tuesday in the Commissioner's Cup Championship. So that is a big game with a lot of a lot at stake and a lot of money at stake in that game. So it'll be interesting to see her status from there on out. As you mentioned, this will be Caitlin 6 game that she has missed this season. She popped up on the injury report on Thursday for the very first time. She had an MRI on Wednesday I guess or Wednesday night is when Steph White got a readout on that and that's when they eventually determined that she would miss the Thursday game. Clark previously was dealing with a left quad strain that was what kept her at the last five games or the. The five games that she missed the three weeks earlier this season. She talked about when she returned, kind of how she was going through needling and red light therapy and oxygen chambers and massages. And she recognized the importance of doing all of that as she continued to work her way back. We don't know, you know, what exactly she did, I guess, since then, but yeah, she also mentioned when she returned for the first time that she didn't want to return unless she was fully healthy. She said that she was against minute restrictions. She's like, if I'm going to play, I'm going to play. So kind of make of that what you will. As this game approaches and as kind of this next stretch approaches for the Indiana Fever. Day to day, I guess, is the tldr of what Stephanie White said on Thursday afternoon.

[Zena Caida]

Gotcha. Yeah, if you guys were watching that Fever storm game, around 14.6 left on the clock, Caitlin's in, ends up getting the ball. She gets sworn by defense, she ends up going to the ground and that's when she gets up kind of holding her leg. I'm not saying that's exactly when she got hurt, but it looked like that might have been the moment. And if it was, it's very frustrating, obviously, if you are a Caitlin Clark fan, Indiana fan, et cetera, to be able to have more time potentially missed with your star off the court. But regardless, we know Caitlin Clark is. Someone's going to. She's going to find her way back to the court similar to the other person we're talking about. Paige Beckers, interestingly enough, found her way back to the court this season who also missed some time. So more similarities that we're bringing up here, but hopefully health and time away from the court is not something we're going to talk about for the rest of this conversation. So let's get into it. All right, there's shared history between these two. What can you guys share with us in terms of when and where these two players paths first converged?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, as you mentioned, they are both girls from the Midwest, so they definitely met on the AAU circuit. Paige being from Minnesota and Caitlin being from Iowa. They were both top five recruits in the class of 2020 coming into college. Paige was the number one recruit in that class. Caitlin was four or five, depending on what outlet you look at. They played each other in college twice, once in their freshman year in the NCAA tournament when UConn won. UConn ends up going to the Final Four that year when Paige was national player of the year. And then they met again when Caitlin was a senior and Paige was in her third season at UConn in the final Four. You may remember that Aaliyah Edwards moving screen called at the end of that game, which I always to move on to the national title game against South Carolina. So a couple times running into each other in college, they were teammates on USA Basketball U19 back in 2019. One of the best games honestly I've ever seen in international basketball. Usa, Australia and the gold medal game. If you ever, you know, get to YouTube and want to check it out, it's very fun. That U19 team not only included Caitlin and Paige, but also like Ryan Howard, Nas Hillman, Cameron Brink, Kaylie Van Lith, like just a who's who of everyone who's like matters in basketball right now in the Tokyo NBA.

[Zena Caida]

Wow.

[Ben Pickman]

So they're paths have been intertwined for a while. Not just because they were number one picks in these last two seasons, but because of, you know, their AAU pedigree, College, international basketball and now at the pro level too.

[Zena Caida]

I will just say that as you mentioned, AAU level and I'm talking about white girls from Midwest. Shout out to everyone that had that one white girl on your AAU team. Mine was named Emily. I will not share her full name, but we loved Emily down. Okay. She rocked with us. Heavy triangle lady nights out in North Carolina. We appreciate them. Ben, when you're thinking about these two paths converging early in their careers, do you think either one of them had any idea of the roles that they would end up playing later on in.

[Jessica Hawke]

Their careers when they were 16 year olds? Probably not. I mean, how could you have predicted?

[Zena Caida]

There are people that predicted. They watched Paige Beckers play one game in seventh grade and they were like, that's the number one pick in the wnba. So other people had thoughts, but do you think they did?

[Jessica Hawke]

Well, I'm not necessarily even talking about them as players. I mean in terms of their cultural reach and cultural impact. Like I think if that's the question, like, I don't know, it seems like a. I mean maybe they did, but like what's you know, 16 year old or what, 14 year old or whatever has the, the thought that like I'm gonna be the on a Mount Rushmore of athletes like in the present day, like when I'm, you know, in my early 20s or I'm gonna, you know, have this cultural impact or be a, you know, player in fashion or whatever. Like I don't know, you know, you can dream about being the number one pick. I think that's not, like, crazy to think about, but, like, maybe this is just me. Like, maybe this is just me projecting my aspirations.

[Zena Caida]

That's fair. I think the bigger thing is, like, regardless of what you thought about yourself, you also had to think about it from the scope of the wnba. Who knew that the WNBA would be regarded in this level, to be able to impact it in that way? But let's talk about the things that might have gotten them on Mount Rushmore, especially, particularly from rookie season perspective. Right. This is your opportunity to get onto the WNBA's map. Right. And to say, are you someone that's going to be a goat one day? So obviously for Paige, we're only a little over a month in, so a little early, but she is doing incredibly, incredibly well. How do you guys think these two rookie seasons stack up so far?

[Jessica Hawke]

Can I blind resume the two players and you guys can take a guess here? We can say who's here just as a comparison point. And you know, I love games I like. All right, so player a little early.

[Zena Caida]

For a game, but. Yes.

[Jessica Hawke]

Yeah, a little early for game, but we're going to do it early. This is through their first 12 games as a pro. Okay.

[Zena Caida]

Okay.

[Jessica Hawke]

First 12 games for both. Player A, 17.7 points, 5.8 assists, 4.6 rebounds, 45.7% from the field and their team. I'll save the record. Player B.

[Zena Caida]

Okay. Okay.

[Jessica Hawke]

16.8 points, 6.3 assists, 5.6 turnovers, 5.3 rebounds, and 37.3% from the field. Anyone guess? I see Sabrina making. As you know, you're really making a face. So do you want to. Do you want to take a guess at the who player A is and who player B is?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I know I'm going to play.

[Zena Caida]

I'm going to say player B is Paige.

[Ben Pickman]

Now player B has the 5.6 turnovers. That's got to be Clark.

[Jessica Hawke]

Yeah, well, yeah, Player B is. Is Caitlin Clark. Player A was Paige Beckers.

[Zena Caida]

Wait, what's the. What was the assist number, though?

[Jessica Hawke]

The assist number for Paige Beckers is 5.8 and the assist number for Caitlin Clark is 6.3. I basically throw it all out to say their numbers through 12 games. Yeah, their numbers through 12 games are very, very similar. Right?

[Zena Caida]

Very comparable. Yeah.

[Jessica Hawke]

The turnover number, obviously, from Clark is a total outlier. I realize as the game master, I probably should have omitted that because I.

[Zena Caida]

Think that was the giveaway bad. I completely ignored that Totally good there. But I was thinking about assist.

[Jessica Hawke]

Exactly. But like Dallas 4 and 8 through their first 12 games pages. First 12 games as a pro, Indiana was 3 and 9 through Caitlin's like the start of their seasons or their careers have been pretty comparable so far. When you just go, you know, A to B like we just did. And it's just, you know, I didn't think that's like a notable starting point as we think about like their two rookie seasons.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, no, it's real. And I think that one of the reasons that one player might have felt flashier in terms of their production, right. Like 17 points, 5 rebounds, 5.8 assists about for.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, basically for Paige.

[Zena Caida]

Right. Really efficient numbers, incredibly impactful numbers that you would want out of a mid year veteran. Right. On your squad. Her doing this as a rookie doesn't seem to capture the same amount of highlights on the visual stage.

[Ben Pickman]

Right.

[Zena Caida]

Whether it's social media, whether it's the breaks between the WNBA games. But Caitlin Clark in her rookie year, it felt as if everything was everywhere. I would say I would assess this is because of the types of shots that Caitlin Clark is having and the types of moves and things that she's making. But I'm curious like what you guys think about, you know, how their rookie seasons are being evaluated and seen. We just said the stats are very similar, but how are people absorbing that and taking in, in their evaluation of how they're playing as rookies?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, I think first thing is that Indiana was on national TV all the time. So people were quite literally able to absorb Caitlin's production in a way that they're not with Paige. Because Dallas just isn't available for everybody who doesn't have league pass. Right. So that's part of it. I think the style of play is also a big factor in this. Like Caitlin takes layups and threes. Right. She is famously very averse to shooting shots in the mid range. And Paige Beckers takes a higher percentage of her shots in the mid range than any player in the wnba. So that is a bit of a difference in how they go about their scoring. Right. You think about even the way they pass the ball, right. Like Cage is very much outlets in transition, you know, pick and roll to like a cutter or you know, hitting the ball to a big inside a lot of pages. Assists go for three pointers. Actually she's getting the ball at the top of the key, sort of spraying it out to the wings. Just the way they operate is entirely different. Even if you look at their statistical Summaries and it looks like similar production. Right. You watch them play and not even really think that they operate the same position frankly. They're just such different players. And I think because Caitlin is the logo bomber and the bounce passes and no looks and whatnot, it just captures the imagination in a way that Paige doesn't. Because Paige's game is very familiar to us recently. These dominant mid range scores before, even if Paige is exceptionally good at it, it's an archetype that, you know, we've grown accustomed to. So I think just the novelty of Caitlyn sort of jumped onto the stage in a way that Paige hasn't. And I think maybe even if the years were switched like that also plays a part in it because I'm of the belief that Caitlyn had the best rookie season for a guard of all time. And if that had happened after Paige, maybe we'd appreciate Paige's more because Paige might have the second best guard season for rookie of all time. It just happened to happen after the very first one.

[Zena Caida]

Right. I mean it's almost as if it doesn' shine as bright because last year it was just like megawatt Shina from Caitlin in terms of what she was able to produce. Before Caitlyn and her class of the rookies hit the W though, there was a lot of chatter about them being ready. How are they going to adjust to the pros, are they going to be strong enough? I mean, Ben, you literally just told us last show about how last. All offseason we've talked about this. Even the preseason Caitlin got stronger because she knew after her rookie season, yeah, people were trying to knock her off a little bit. But that adjustment into the pros isn't just about strength. It's about the speed of the game, being able to play with these different veterans around you. And now we're seeing the same kind of conversation with Paige and her rookie class. Like Kiki and Sonia Citron out in Washington, Tahina Powpow down in Atlanta, I mean all the rookies, I put quotes around them because they're a little bit older down in Phoenix, but there's a conversation that seemed a little different. This class, Paige's class, they seem pro ready. They seem a little bit made in the factory ready to go into the WNBA versus Everyone had doubts about Caitlyn. People had doubts about Angel, People had doubts about Camilla. People had doubts about. Well, no, I think the only player they didn't have doubts about was Rekia Jackson. She was the one person everyone was like ah, she, she should have been in the WNBA 10 years ago. So that feels different. In terms of the conversation, why do you think rookies are starting to take and from Caitlin's class on are starting to take less and less time to adjust overall?

[Jessica Hawke]

I mean, I think the preparation is a big part of it. But can I just say to your point about the conversation, Xena, like to me the difference is when Caitlin and Angel were coming into the league, there was this phrasing around a new era for the WNBA that like this is a new era for the sport that is beginning. You know, you haven't heard that really at all as it relates to this current class. I think in many ways this class is viewed as a continuation for, you know, reasons we're going to talk about to the preparation, their production of this kind of new era of the wnba. It's certainly a new era for the Dallas Wings franchise, right. In terms of the economics of that business, you know, the trajectory of that franchise, they are singularly are having a new era. But I do think it's kind of interesting, like that's a big difference in how these players are discussed. Right. Like Caitlyn marked, you know, I think for a lot of people there is a kind of like line in the sand like BC and AC before Clark and after Clark. Right. Like, whereas we don't really talk about currently Paige Beckers in this draft in the same way.

[Zena Caida]

I'm sorry, we got to take a moment. That was so. That's funny as hell. Sorry, but keep going.

[Jessica Hawke]

But it's, but it's kind of true, right? Like I think the Dallas Wings will mark, you know, the Beckers era before and after.

[Zena Caida]

But like BP and AP doesn't hit.

[Jessica Hawke]

Like it doesn't hit that same way. Right. So I didn't use the line but like it's just a different stage in the league. And that's why to Sabrina's point about like if you were to flip flop the circumstances, what conversations would we have? That's a really interesting hypothesis. Like one I hadn't really thought about, both from a basketball standpoint and just Paige's production. But also like would we have had the new era conversation had Paige come first and Caitlin come second? Or is it a result of, you know, what Sabrina was talking about too? Like the style of play being such a unicorn for Caitlin Clark that we would have drawn the line in the sand in 2025 season and not 2024?

[Zena Caida]

Anyway, I like the conversational aspect of it. How are we talking about these Players, regardless of what they're producing on the court. Very true. Point, Sabrina. I also think there's a. Ben was starting to hit on this, how these players are coming into the league. The New Yorker just put out an article about the NBA and how the NBA, the youth talent and what everything it takes now for youth to be a part of the NBA ecosystem. It's the same thing in the wnba. It's really the truth for every sport. Parents are starting to see the value of training their kids up to be elite athletes, whether you're getting scholarships or you're getting to the leagues and you're getting paid significant dollars to just be really good at a sport or to at least be at a college in which you can make money just by being a part of their sports program through nil. The personal trainers, all the above. Like, how much do you think that's impacting the type of skill we're seeing out on the court too, which also translates to better production in the WNBA earlier.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I feel like you hit on all of it Cena, like all of that. I think we're in the most skilled generation of college prospects. I think this is the first year where like super nerdy but like it matters that the WNBA only has one all rookie team. And like you can't pick more than five rookies to be on the all rookie team because there's so many players who I think belong in that discussion. Just you mentioned Sonya and Kiki and Tina Powpow. And I mean just across the league, so many rookies are not just performing well, but actually impacting winning for their teams in a way that rookies are not supposed to be able to do. You think about rookie of the year is generally just, oh, you look whoever had the most points, assists and rebounds and even if they were on the worst team in the league, it didn't matter. That's just who you picked. And now there's actually rookies who are again making positive impacts on their teams, not just showing up and putting up numbers. And I think that's a reflection of just the talent level in college basketball. It's a reflection of the professionalization of the game. Dating, you know, going back to how early in their lives they start taking this stuff seriously. I think just the youth game has gotten better. The college game is better, the coaches are better. And I think this is, I don't think we're going to see like a Caitlyn on a page every year, you know, people who are performing at this particular level. But I Do think that it's reasonable to expect a deeper crop of rookies to be ready for the pro game at a quicker pace, even if it's not like these singular stars that I think are going to be more tentpole moments for the league?

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely. I'm expecting more Leon Eyes, expecting more Sarah, Ashley Barkers, Saniya Rivers, like Anissa Morrows, like people that are immediately coming in and getting significant minutes. And it's not like it's being stolen or being wrongly allocated like they are earning this time as well. So let's turn our attention off the court a little bit to the impact that both of these players have had in the larger culture of basketball. Because I can't turn my TV on without seeing Paige tell me to buy a coach purse. Well, in a. In indirectly. Or have you done so?

[Jessica Hawke]

Wait, have you done so we should get that on the record here.

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely. Have a coach purse. Thank you to the WNBA and coach. And coach being one of the first fashion brands, high fashion brands, to really see the value here with the wnba. But yeah, hell yeah, I absolutely love coach for that. I can't turn my TV on without Caitlyn telling me that she can shoot better from the logo in her everyday life. Okay. There are so many opportunities here for both of them to show up and be a part of our everyday lives beyond basketball because of how they fit into the culture, but they're differently fitting into the culture. Okay. Let's just be real here. It's a little bit of a difference. Caitlyn was much more of a lightning rod, if you could say, than Paige. The way she came onto the scene and the way that everyone's talking about her, the way she permeates through all every conversation. And they're obviously different people, but why do you guys think that they've hit so differently in the culture? I got some thoughts, but I want to hear what you guys think.

[Ben Pickman]

I think part of it is Paige sort of fits in line with this traditional WNBA superstar. Like, she's from UConn. She's part of the UConn industrial complex. Right. She's just been a part of, like, the basketball discourse for so long that I don't think her making the move to the wnba, like, dramatically changed her reach in the same way that Caitlyn was this supernova, right? Like that national championship game happens in 2023, and it's just full speed ahead for the next 12 months of her life. Right. Like, Paige's rise has been a lot more measured. And, you know, you think about A league that historically is built on the back of black women. And what Paige has said in her advocacy for black women, you know, I think that makes her just, I guess, more part of like the traditional fabric of the WNBA in a way that Caitlin wasn't.

[Zena Caida]

I keep thinking and imagining what if Paige and Juju would have had more matchups, right? What if that opportunity for a foil in the way that, you know, angel and Caitlyn had. Theirs was different, but there was a. There was a dynamic there of people rooting for one side or the other. USC West coast and Juju and Paige and UConn, like these two. The up and coming dynasty or wanting to be a dynasty versus UConn, like, what that could have helped or how that would have impacted Paige's. Her rise in making it kind of meteoric in the same way for Caitlyn. Ben, what are your thoughts about how does Paige show up in the zeitgeist a little bit differently than Caitlyn or vice versa?

[Jessica Hawke]

Yeah, and I guess we're kind of like talking out of think piece here. But like, I go back to this idea of kind of what Sabrina was saying, that Paige. I feel like we had this like, summer of Paige last summer. Like, everywhere you looked, she was there. She was at every fashion week event, party, U.S. open box brand. You know, I'm just like, you could throw terms in.

[Zena Caida]

Throw events in magazine covers, right?

[Jessica Hawke]

Like, she was there and she was there as a college student, still this soon to be WNBA star. But in that was kind of like her introduction. And I guess Caitlyn, I feel like has, you know, she really entered the cultural conversation, I think in a, you know, you know, towards the end of her college career, first because of her play, and then just kind of exploded. And now I do think, you know, you start to see obviously she wore Prada at the NBA at the WNBA draft. You mentioned the, you know, the State Farm commercial of just like, you know, X marks their spot in your kitchen where you're shooting things from or throwing your trash. I don't know. I feel like I've seen that at.

[Ben Pickman]

So many watch the commercial.

[Zena Caida]

I've done it.

[Jessica Hawke]

I mean, it's like you could do the script, like all the different places she shoots from, but, like, it is a little different. Like, I don't know. Do you guys feel like, is it because Paige's growth or like, trajectory is a little more traditional? It's just kind of been this like, steady incline, whereas Caitlyn like really exploded in a new way? Because I do Think now, like, everywhere. Everywhere Caitlyn goes to now, obviously, is super well documented. Like, every golf tournament, every Taylor Swift concert, every Chiefs game. Like, you know, she goes, people follow. I guess that's true with Paige, but it does feel. Feel different.

[Zena Caida]

But I do think that it hits in a different way. Like, we're following, we're seeing Caitlyn, and she's in her hoodie. She's not intending to be seen. She is just trying. Like, she's out, like, you know, in a box somewhere, and the cameras are finding her. Whereas with Paige Beckers, a lot of times when we're seeing her, it's a scene, right? Like, she is dressed up, she looks nice. She is intended to be there and be courtside, be, you know, like you said, front row of fashion shows. Like, there's a swagger that is associated with the way that Paige Becker shows up on the cultural scene, as opposed to. It almost feels like Caitlyn's kind of being caught, like, at being a celebrity, whereas Paige has really absorbed being a celebrity at this point. I really think about, you know, Paige and Flage that summer being everywhere and kind of owning it and being like, yeah, but I'm gonna make it back for my classes. Don't worry about it. Whereas you didn't see that same thing for Caitlyn. I do think, you know, the swagger's a part of it.

[Jessica Hawke]

Yeah.

[Ben Pickman]

I think it's the surprise of how Caitlyn just appeared on the national scene. Right? Like, I mean, admittedly, she was ranked very highly coming out of college, didn't get the UConn call, but had a lot of offers from big schools. You know, originally committed to Notre Dame, historically successful program, ends up going to Iowa. I think because no one saw her coming, it just. I don't know, it was like, sort of a force multiplier in and of itself, right? Like, oh, my God, this girl from Iowa. And, like, oh, my God, everyone's watching women's basketball. And it's again, like, Paige. Not that. Like, I've seen a player like Paige before, but, like, all the beats of her story feel very familiar to me. Right? Like, like, you mentioned the players that we've seen from UConn in the league before. And that's not to say that she can't be great in her own right. It's just, I don't think she's as, like. I don't know, she's not as singular as the Caitlin Clark story was, which is why I think Caitlin becomes a bigger phenomenon in and of herself.

[Zena Caida]

There was a point where when Caitlyn first showed up on the scene and I think we came, you know, it was kind of ignored, but I did recognize it. It was ignored or played downplayed because some people used it to kind of further some racist tropes. But I think there was a truth to this, that Caitlyn was a new representation in the wnba. For a long time there hadn't been a big time star that was from a smaller brand school that was from the Midwest. And that was really exciting that people were able to see someone from their small town or you know, that kind of background that had this big game behind her, you know, be able to make it on the big stage and be amongst the best. So I thought that was always really, really cool. But I feel like that was something that was again, muted because some people used it to try and compare it to black players and et cetera.

[Jessica Hawke]

Well, I was gonna say just in terms of beasts that are familiar, as we kind of round this out and this is I guess a little bit more to the basketball part of it. But one beat that I'm certainly tracking is how fans and how others criticize the respective coaches of these two teams. I think is kind of interesting. We should say it and throw it out.

[Ben Pickman]

Right?

[Jessica Hawke]

Like Christie sides, obviously, when they get off. What Indiana was, what, 1 in 10 to open last year, 2 and 9 like that. I mean. And what did Dallas open with Sabrina? Similarly, like one in 10. I'm blanking out.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, you mentioned there like four and eight pages, first 12 games.

[Jessica Hawke]

But yeah, yeah, I mean, they were good. They're good when Paige plays, but like she dealt with injury and they really struggled. Like there's. There was a lot of people. There are a lot of people who are coming at both of these respective coaches. We obviously saw Indiana make a change after one year. A lot of people were calling for Chris Koklanis, his job after 10 games, 12 games. I haven't heard a lot of those calls this week on the Internet. I haven't seen a lot of those calls. They started to win some games and things have started to kind of level out. Big shout out to Lee Rue, who's making a huge impact for the Dallas Wings right now, coming over in a trade. But like, that's another part of this I'm certainly tracking. You know, I think at this point I would be pretty surprised if Dallas made a change after this season. Obviously Indiana said they were ahead of schedule where they thought and leveled up. And that ties back to the the start of this episode and the conversation we had. But that's another interesting comparison point that I have thought about as we relate it to these two players.

[Zena Caida]

If anything to round it all out. Everyone's really excited that both of these players are in the league. Like it is fun to watch. It's fun to see someone that consistently has the ball in their hands be as efficient, be as fun, be as flashy, be as entertaining as both of these players have been. I am really hoping that they do get to play against each other tonight so we can see what that looks like. But to round it all the way back to the top of this particular section in this new era that I think Caitlin's Clark Caitlin Clark's year kind of opened up, it's been really fun to see how well adjusted these rookies have been and immediately making an impact. And it not being just a few players, it being a wide range obviously with Caitlin and Paige kind of leading the charge in this new era. So we shall see if they face off. But for now we'll be tracking just how much their stories continue to be similar and just how much they differ.

[Sabrina Merchant]

When pro defensive end Cam Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawk to learn how AI can help.

[Zena Caida]

Being innovative with how to have success and how to formulate that success. That synergy between AI and a business come together. It's like coaches game plan as well as the player. AI is creating a perfect plan and it's the business like hey we, we have this imperfect solution. Let's meld them together and see what happens.

[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Caida]

Heather is a nurse practitioner from UnitedHealthcare.

[Ben Pickman]

We meet patients wherever they live.

[Zena Caida]

During a house call, she found Jack had an issue.

[Ben Pickman]

Jack's blood pressure was dangerously high.

[Zena Caida]

It was 217 over 110. So they got Jack to the hospital and got him the help he needed.

[Ben Pickman]

He had had a stamp placed in.

[Jessica Hawke]

His heart preventing a massive heart attack.

[Sabrina Merchant]

If it wasn't for my guardian angel.

[Ben Pickman]

I wouldn't be here.

[Zena Caida]

Hear more stories like Jack's at unitedhealthcare.com.

[Ben Pickman]

Benefits features and or devices vary by.

[Zena Caida]

Plan area limitation and exclusions app. Well, it's Friday, so you know what that means. We gotta let y' all know where to set your screens. Okay? Presented by BetMGM. Let's make us some money real fast. BetMGM. Make a fast break for on court action with a WNBA odds boost token. Use your token and get a bigger payout on a winning WNBA bet Friends, what are we watching this weekend?

[Ben Pickman]

There's a lot of really good games actually going on this weekend. I think New York Phoenix on Friday night is one that I'm particularly interested in. That was New York's first home loss of the season when Phoenix just beat them on their road trip last week. Monika Koamkhani had Sabrina Nescu in absolute hell. And so that if like I'm zoning in on one matchup, that's the one that I'm keeping an eye on for this weekend.

[Zena Caida]

I like that one. I'm gonna keep with the Phoenix trend. Phoenix beat the Aces, I believe it was last week without Asia Wilson. They're rounding out again. This time Asia Wilson is back. She's playing well. We'll see what happens this go round. What about you, Ben?

[Jessica Hawke]

Yeah, I was going to go off the board. I feel like we're making that an annual tradition in this segment. And if I can plug my own reporting and one of my own stories for this week, I'll use this opportunity to do so. I wrote a story earlier this week on the site on a new venture, a new pro tour called 3xba. 3 on 3. It's a 3 on 3 basketball league and they have a two day tournament that begins Friday. You can watch these games on AWSN on Pluto tv, which I believe is free. The AWSN channel on Pluto tv. And basically why you should care about this event is because probably some of your favorite college players who are not in the WNBA are participating. At one point, more than 20% of the players in this 2025 WNBA Draft class had signed up to participate in this new tournament. That includes players like Cheyenne Sellers. Serena Sundell is taking part. Harmony Turner, Madison Scott. Other notables from recent seasons, Kristen Williams, who used to play at UConn, Mackenzie Forbes at USC, Grace Berger, Destiny Henderson. There's a lot of names. If you are like, where are my favorite college stars of the past playing? A lot of them work out at home at their alma maters. Some players have signed a contract to go play in this Mexican professional league, which is another hub where players go. And there's this new tour which can serve as an Olympic pipeline. And they have this tournament which is a showcase and it's certainly on some WNBA teams radars as well, with three on three being this, like, way to develop players. This proven way that, you know, teams and executives and players reflect on is really important in player development. So off the board. But keep an eye out on that event and see how some of your favorite stars of the past perform.

[Zena Caida]

Okay. If it's anything like unrivaled, that three on three action was a lot of fun. And we also have seen the development work that has benefited a lot of these players in that sort of action. So yes, shout out to 3xba, which I affectionately called three by because that Ivy League presence.

[Jessica Hawke]

A lot of Ivy League presence. There is a lot of the bottom Xena as an Ivy League basket. Where was your. Maybe next year you'll get the. You'll get the call for their Spokane event.

[Zena Caida]

Don't let my knees hear that. Okay, that's all for today. We'll see you back here on Tuesday, y' all. And as always, before we go, if you haven't already, please follow our show right now, wherever you're listening. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube. Put those index fingers to work, folks. Or if you're using your thumb because you're on your phone, we like that too. We really love to hear from you. So drop a comment, you know, email us, post at us, whatever works. We want to hear from you guys. And over on our partner Yahoo Sports Hub, there's more content. This isn't homework, it's enrichment. Okay? So definitely go check out some more content. Sports.yahoo.com women's-sports on behalf of the athletics, Sabrina and Ben, I'm Zena Caida, thanking you for listening. We will see you Next Time no Off Season is hosted by Zena Cato with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations. How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support [e-mail] the name of the Calgary.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Folk Music Festival isn't totally accurate, with headliners including Bad Bad Not Good, Michael Kiwanuka, Cake, Sierra Farrell, los Lobos and six 60 more awesome acts. A better name might be the Calgary Alt Rock, Hip Hop, Indie, Electro, Soul, R B, Bluegrass, Art, Pop, Country, Blues and Folk Music Festival. But that's a mouthful, so let's just call it the Calgary More Than folk Music Festival. July 24 to 27 [e-mail] hi, it's.

[Zena Caida]

Paige from Giggly Squad.

[Ben Pickman]

Let's be real, Cat dads are in their golden era.

[Zena Caida]

Temptations, America's number one cat treat brand.

[Ben Pickman]

Is celebrating how seriously irresistible these guys are.

[Zena Caida]

They've got sensitivity and snack timing precision and their cats adore them. Add in a handful of Temptations Treats.

[Ben Pickman]

And boom, you've got a certified cat dad.

[Zena Caida]

Show more love to the cat dad in your life with Temptations Cat Treats and tag your fave moments with hashtag Cat Dad Sighting. You know we're dying to see them.