← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
South Carolina’s the national champion. Will Dawn Staley win it again in 2025?
00:43:27
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- [00:00]
Adrian
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- [03:09]
Adrian
Love.
- [03:10]
Chantelle
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- [05:14]
Ben
For the athletic I'm Ben Pickman and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. We are coming to you on a Monday morning here in Cleveland, Ohio, the day after the 2024 national championship. It was a thrilling afternoon, a long afternoon and night of writing, really, a long month, really. After South Carolina 8775 win over Iowa in Sunday's title game, I am joined by Sabrina Merchant and Chantelle Jennings, my two esteemed colleagues at the Athletic who covered this tournament so well alongside me and our other colleagues. And we're here to break down everything we saw from the weekend and this championship game. So I know we are a little bit tired, but I guess let's jump right in with the big picture thoughts. Sabrina, just what will you take away from the weekend? What stands out from you, from Sunday's contest in particular, and how South Carolina became just the 10th team ever to go undefeated.
- [06:28]
Sabrina
You know, I've been saying this most of the year when I write my power rankings, how I thought South Carolina was the best team in all of 20, 22, 23, and just because they lost one game to Iowa shouldn't change the way I look at that season. And I'm just glad that I don't have to make any caveats this time around. They were the best team all year and they did win the national title. And to do so, you know, after falling down 10, nothing real quick, and just asserting their style of play consistently for the final 38 minutes of that game, I just thought it was a really impressive performance. It's the kind of thing that, you know, I'm going to look back on this season and think of this as an appropriate coronation for what happened over the course of the year. And it was just very cool. Like Raven Johnson said on the podium, like, the revenge tour is complete. You know, Don Steely said they got to send out Camila Cardoso, a champion unlike any other player they sent to the wnba, which I feel like I should fact check that, but I don't really care to at this point. It was just like the appropriate way for this to finish. South Carolina was the number one team. Yeah, maybe they were, I don't know, number four or six in the very first poll, but for every other week after that, they occupied the number one spot. And this is how it should have ended.
- [07:37]
Fiona
I just want to give a lot of credit to Ben right now for being the person who sounds the most alive on this podcast because it's a good acting job, Ben. And I appreciate you pulling out your podcast best voice for all of our listeners because I just don't have it in me right now. But I agree with Sabrina. I think, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about parody in the Game this year and what that might mean for the tournament. And you know, like last year, LSU was not the best team in the country, but they still won the national title. And we were talking so much about parody this year. What would it mean? Would we see upsets in the tournament? We predicted we would. We ended up not seeing a ton. However, this was a year despite the parody, despite the rising star of stars in the game, despite all of the attention, the best team did win the national title. I think that's kind of fitting in a way because, you know, we just said it over and over again. South Carolina was too good, too deep, too talented, they had too many weapons. And in order for any team to beat them, South Carolina was also going to have to beat themselves a little bit. And we just didn't see that happen. Even in the moments when they sort of let their foot off the gas a bit like we saw against Indiana, they just had too many responses. And I think that's a product of coaching, but it's also a product of just the depth of this team that was on full display. I thought Tessa Johnson and Mylesia Folweil were two of the best players on the floor. Neither one of them starts for the Gamecocks and you know, well deserved attention coming out of that game.
- [09:04]
Ben
I think the thing that stuck out to me and just building off of what you guys said was that South Carolina proved it again on Sunday that they could win a game playing any style and really win any style of game. Right? We had seen all throughout the season themselves really consistently punch teams in the mouth from the first quarter and in the first half. And that was not the case on Sunday. Right? Iowa jumps out to that 10 nothing lead or the 12 two start and then the 29 lead. They look great in the first two or three minutes. And it really wasn't until halfway through the first quarter that South Carolina settled down. It was only the fourth time, or they had only trailed rather after one quarter, four times heading into Sunday. So Sunday was the fifth time they had trailed all year after one quarter. And we saw them just be resilient and chip away and saw that they could win a game by not starting fast, right? By coming back. We saw that they could win a game by, you know, basically matching the Hawkeyes shot for shot. I think Iowa made nine three pointers on the game. South Carolina made only eight. You know, that's not the ratio that if you're Iowa you would have expected, but it's a credit to South Carolina that they can Hang in there with a three point shooting team like I would, that, you know, is so strong and obviously has Caitlin Clark leading the way. I mean, it was something we talked about on Saturday that when we taped was one of the strengths of the South Carolina team. And we'll reiterate it. And you touched on it just now. Chantelle is like, you never know on a given night which player is going to step up or which two or three players are going to step up. And, you know, we talked about my leisure full Wiley on Saturday. As a player to break out. We didn't really mention Tessa Johnson. She ends up leading South Carolina and scoring with 19 points. It was just the third time all year she led the Gamecocks in scoring. We saw Chloe Kids have a double double. We saw Cardozo have a double double. So there were tons of players who stepped up. Ashlyn Watkins had a quiet night after she had, you know, a stellar game on the boards in the semifinal. So, you know, it's just a credit to the, the foundation, the program that Dawn Staley has built. And, you know, the strength of the team is that they're all so strong, like they're nine or 10 deep, and that on any given night someone will star in their role and that they don't just have one big star.
- [11:05]
Fiona
I also want to highlight one of the points that I learned last night that ended up not getting into my story, but I was talking with Lisa Boyer after the game and she told me that Winston Gandy, the first year assistant, was actually the coach who had this scout, which I thought really backed up the point of what everyone was saying all week, that, like, they didn't go back a ton to watch last year's tape and that these were two totally different teams. And I don't think we can kind of overstate the impact that Winston Gandy has had in year one for this team. He works with the perimeter players. And Raven Johnson is a player who's really credited her improvement in three point shooting to him on the offensive side. But to hold Caitlin to two assists in the first half, like, yeah, she obviously had 18 points in the first quarter. Like, you know, she's shooting threes and hitting threes two from the right wing over Camila Cardoso, like, Caitlyn is going to do Caitlyn things, but to then kind of lock her down in the way that they did with so many different players rotating onto her. Raven Johnson, Brie hall started on her. Tessa Johnson got some runs on her too. And just kind of how they Defended her, keeping a hand truly in her face. Like once she crossed half court, I thought that really impacted how she was, you know, not able to get the offense sort of going through her as much and. And she didn't get her assist numbers up in the way that we normally see. And the ball movement was impacted, I think, because, you know, she was just impacted so much. And so, you know, obviously a ton of credit like you just said, Ben, like every person on this team is so strong. But I think it's interesting and it shows a ton of trust as well in this coaching staff that it was the first, first year assistant who got the scout for the national title game.
- [12:37]
Ben
I was going to say, I think it is pretty telling that Dawn Staley trusts a first year assistant on her staff to, you know, come up with the scout in the biggest game of their season. I think that's, you know, a reflection of her as a leader. And, you know, Chantel and Sabrina, you guys both wrote about dawn last night and so maybe you guys can touch on a little bit about what you wrote on. I mean, what does this mean, Sabrina, for Dawn and her legacy and how she'll be remembered and how will you just think about this coaching job that this masterclass of a coaching job that she underwent and undertook this past season?
- [13:07]
Sabrina
Yeah, I mean, I thought about this a lot as it became clear that South Carolina was going to win. But, you know, you look at the overall tallies and numbers and it's hard to put Don in the same echelon as Geno and Pat Summitt at this point just because of 11 versus 3. And, you know, Pat Summitt also has a big number, but in terms of this, like, modern era of college basketball, Don is the one everybody gravitates towards. Right. Like, Don is the one that people seek out when they want to comment on something or, you know, the one who's advocating for equal pay for female coaches or, you know, continuing that tradition of Carolyn Peck of sending the net to black female coaches after she won the title in 2017. Like, she's the one who is sort of the, I don't know, like the Pied Piper of everyone in this generation. Like, she's the one who they seek advice from. All the best players want to play for her. She was the most recent coach of the Olympic team and just seems to have this new age figured out. Like, Chantel got into this about how she adjusted and learned from last year and then had to adapt herself for this particular group of players. But, like, for her to Be a national champ with the buttoned up Aaliyah Boston Sayaka class. And then also for this class, I think just shows her ability to really understand this particular age of players. And there's literally no sign of slowing down, right? Like she won three titles, she's already got the hall of Fame resume as a player, you know, six time all star Olympian as a player. The resume is really kicking in pretty quickly. She's only the sixth coach in, you know, NCAA women's basketball history to get that undefeated season. So I just think like before you know it, her resume is going to look a lot like what you would consider a goat. It's not quite there yet just because, you know, UConn has a lot of numbers to add up. But to do this, like, I know everybody plays the nobody believed in us card and it gets a little annoying when athletes play the nobody believed in Escard. But we started this season and nobody thought South Carolina was the best team in the country, right? And we didn't know what they were going to look like. We didn't think that they had enough veteran experience or chemistry to really figure this out in year one of an entirely new era. And that's why I think, like, this is Don's best coaching job, because they just immediately figured it out. Right. Like every coach has talked about how this summer was just a train wreck and nobody knew what it was going to look like. And all of a sudden they go out to Paris and they put on this impeccable show and they have shown no signs of slowing down since then. You know, one three pointer against Tennessee accepted. But it's just really impressive to think that, like, this wasn't her best team, but she got the most out of them.
- [15:31]
Fiona
I think the lasting memory for me from this title game on the South Carolina side is just going to be that visual of the coaches unhuddling as the time was ticking down. And dawn comes out of that huddle just in tears. Like you said, Sabrina, this is sort of the, the coach that everyone goes to. She is leading the charge in every way in this sport and people want to know what she thinks and what she believes on different topics and to sort of have her show that vulnerability in a way. And. And after the game, she said, you know, she just wanted to deal with her emotions in real time and be where her feet were. And I thought a lot about sort of the similarities with, you know, the coaches you've already mentioned, like Tara and Gino and Gino, who I talked to a lot about sort of the pressures he felt when he was going through those Stewie years and those Diana's years and Maya's years and just sort of the pressures of when you have the best players and everyone expects. Expects you to win and everyone expects you to be perfect and, and what that feels like on a day to day basis and how it's sort of those, all of those pressures just, you know, they weigh on you. And she said it afterwards that, you know, everyone. Everyone relies on her and she wants that pressure and she wants everyone to rely on her. But sort of that in addition to this year and how it was challenging for her, that she did have to adjust, she did have to pivot, she had to meet players where they were at. And I think when you are, you know, like a natural point guard, like dawn, like, you're used to directing and when you're a coach, like you're used to directing. And in this way, she was sort of like the team captain and the coach. And so it was this extra level of just meeting the players where they were at. I agree with you, Sabrina. This is, this is her best coaching job ever, because this is not the best team she has ever had. And yet it is the 10th team in women's basketball history to go undefeated. And that is, you know, that's incredible.
- [17:14]
Ben
She used the word burden on Sunday to describe the kind of weight she was feeling, which I thought was a really poignant word that she said that she carried the burden of, you know, every single one of her players, all the coaches, all the staff, and, you know, all the work that they put into the team. And I think it was something Sabrina and I, you know, we were sitting very close to the South Carolina bench. I think we both kind of observed in that first half the kind of intense emotions and honestly, frustration at times from dawn, from the other coaches, right, about Caitlin Clark not being whistled for fouls or for, you know, foul calls that Clark was able to draw or for, you know, calls that Cardozo didn't get on the other end of the floor for, you know, rushed shots or just a little bit of careless play. And I think we saw, like, you know, we just saw the frustration and I think we maybe saw a little bit of the pressure. And then I think in the second half, we saw some of that release. You know, there was a moment for me that jumped out and I wrote about my leisure, full Wiley and Tessa Johnson on the site. And there was this like, really teachable moment that late. I think it was in the. Early in the Fourth quarter when Full Wiley fouled Sydney falter on like a jump shot. They were up 14 points where the gamecocks and it was the short two point jumper. And Don looked back at her coaching staff and just said like, lay out in frustration. And she was like clearly pissed. And then Folweiley came over and they talked and they had this short pep talk. And like, it was clear that, you know, Don was, you know, urging on this young player who she's invested so much time in and who will have such a bright future for the Gamecocks. And for me, it just spoke to like the swing of all year. She understood that there were things that were going to frustrate her and there were things that she then needed to turn into teachable moments. She knew her team was going to be loose, you know, between the SEC tournament and the NCAA tournament. She got on them because she felt like they didn't understand what was ahead of them. And certainly then I think she turned that into a teachable moment. And we saw that right away in the NCAA tournament and they talked about how important that was. And you know, there were all these little moments as we continue to talk about in harp on, like, this team was unlike the Freshies team from a year ago. It was unlike the Asia Wilson teams from years past. Like, it had a very different energy and yet she was able to adapt to them in a way that, you know, maybe burdened her and maybe felt pressure. But it seems like she learned a lot from. And obviously they learned a lot from her.
- [19:25]
Fiona
I think it's really like kind of poetic that Malaysia had, you know, such an impressive game for them. She finished with only 9 points in 18 minutes, but just sort of what her impact was on the floor on both ends. I was talking with Khadijah Sessions after the game, who was an assistant for South Carolina but also played for dawn. And I was asking about, you know, how has dawn changed? Like, what are the things that she sort of has met players at now that when you were a player for her just wouldn't have happened. And she said Malaysia is maybe the most high risk, high reward player Don has ever coached. And she has let Lei be Lei. And I thought that was just really fitting that sort of in this, you know, we saw her sort of coming out party during that Notre Dame game when that highlight went viral. She attempted something sort of similar in this title game and it didn't go quite as well, but you know, just sort of the frustrations and the highs and lows that Don has Felt and sort of, you know, every day was a journey with this team, the coaches have said. But I thought the fact that you have these freshmen coming out and having these kinds of games in the title game was just so much. The storylines just sort of like seep out of this national championship game because there were so many.
- [20:31]
Ben
Sabrina, before we transition to Iowa and, you know, I think we should reflect a little bit on their season. You know, from a basketball standpoint, obviously you are a great basketball mind. No slight to anyone else on this podcast, myself included. What did you kind of observe about why South Carolina was able to come back? What adjustments did you see? What else jumped out to you about the literal action on the court?
- [20:53]
Sabrina
Yeah, what's interesting is I don't think they adjusted much after that 10 nothing start. It was just okay, we, we figured out sort of how this game is being refed, what the pace is. It's a little different than when we were playing NC State, but we just need to get back to what we actually planned on doing. And I thought the, the main piece of that was just Revan Johnson was tremendous on Caitlin Clark. Just really good at getting into her and preventing her from getting comfortable. Like at the three point line. Obviously Caitlin's gonna hit some shots, but she hit 12 points after the first quarter. Like it was a pretty impressive defensive performance from Raven and you could tell that it was wearing on her because she shot 1 of 11 on the other end of the court. Like it's a very hard job to guard Caitlin Clark and also run an offense efficiently. It's why Caitlin doesn't play defense. So I thought that was the main thing was that Raven was so good at the point of attack and like, you know, revenge tour complete, yada, yada yada. I was a little disappointed in our overall body of voters that Raven Johnson was not an all tournament team member because I thought defending Caitlyn Clark was probably the most important thing that South Carolina did on Sunday. But then, you know, last year, like they left the middle of the floor open for Caitlyn to work. Like they were so intent on staying glued to Gabby Marshall and Kate Martin and McKenna Warnock that like Caitlin Clark was just able to get to the rim so easily against that defense. And for all of Aaliyah Boston and Victoria Saxton's gift, like they're just not as mobile as Ashlyn Watkins and Camila Cardoso are. So like that strategy for one, they could play that strategy and still trust Ashland Watkins and Camila Cardoso to cover more ground but they also, like, allowed their perimeter defenders to help a little bit more and just stay more connected instead of everybody sort of defending on an island. And you could see that, like, Iowa still didn't get up a ton of three point shots. Like, I think they would have had to get up at least 30 for this to the math to really work out in their favor. They only got 23. I just thought it was like a more game plan that fitted South Carolina's strengths better in terms of their ability to move and rotate and just like connect with one another. And I mean, I'm sure they looked at last year's at some point and like, thought like, okay, this is like not. Not what South Carolina looks like. And yesterday, win or lose, like if South Carolina hits fewer shots, like if Tessa Johnson doesn't make, you know, those threes, I still think it looked like South Carolina, the South Carolina we've become accustomed to seeing.
- [22:55]
Fiona
I think also just sort of, you know, as we shift to talking about the other side of the ball, there were obviously parts of this Iowa game that didn't look like Iowa at times, but I thought, you know, Caitlin, gabby, Kate playing 40 minutes, Caitlin went off at the end, Molly Davis came in. But those three and kind of what they've meant to the growth of this program specifically during the last four years. But for Gabby, five, for Kate, six. Ben, when you look at this Iowa team and specifically the game, what are you going to remember?
- [23:23]
Ben
I mean, I remember the hot start that they jumped out to, the sound in the arena when they jumped out to that fast start. I mean, the roars of the crowd that, you know, I think you've heard and we've all heard all throughout the season, just the way the Hawkeyes fans have traveled, the way they have, you know, taken over arenas on at home and on the road. And I think we saw that in Cleveland. We saw it in Albany, and then we saw it in Cleveland at the final four. And the way they got out to a hot start, the energy in the building, it was palpable. You did feel it. And it was hard to not feel, like, thrown into, you know, the biggest wrestling ring, you know, around, like the biggest stage, the biggest scene around, because that's what this was. You know, another memory I have is as it relates to Iowa is, you know, just the way that they continue to try and fight, but they just were not able to muster the comeback. And yet still with Caitlin Clark, with five minutes to go, you still kind of believe in your back of your mind, you know, it was what, a five or six point game with just a couple minutes left. And you're like, South Carolina has controlled the second half and really controlled from the second quarter on. But with Clark, you know, in an instant, that could change. And so that, I think, speaks to her greatness that, you know, there was this feeling that they were never truly out of it. If they could just get within striking distance. Suddenly they're a one minute stretch of some three point barrages away from coming back in the game. The other thing I'll remember is what Don Staley said on the podium afterwards about her. And I thought it was a really, you know, kind of touching moment and one that was, I think, reflective about the state of the sport, right, that South Carolina had this trophy presentation. Don spoke, Holly Rowe from ESPN interviewed some players, and then Don took the microphone back and basically thanked Caitlin Clark firsthand. Personally, I think she literally used the phrase like, I want to thank Caitlin Clark personally for lifting up our sport and said that she carried a heavy load for the sport of women's basketball and that it's not going to stop here. And I thought, you know, that was authentic. And I thought just a moment of connection from Dawn Staley to the crowd and a moment that I think a lot of people feel that like, yeah, Iowa did not win the title, but that does nothing to diminish the work or the impact that they had on the sport of women's college basketball this year and women's basketball in general. And I think it does nothing to diminish what Caitlin Clark could be and the impact she could have in the wnba. And there's a lot of other players who had an impact as well. Clark is just kind of an accelerant. She is, you know, maybe the face of all the changes. But, you know, I thought to have Dawn Staley have that immediate reflection, I think it was a feeling that a lot of people, a sentiment that a lot of people had.
- [25:46]
Sabrina
One thing that I'm going to remember about Iowa is when Caitlin Clark was subbed out for Molly Davis at the end of the game, Lisa Bluder just hugged her and said, I'm proud of you. And it was very sweet because you looked at how Iowa responded to their loss last year to lsu and there was a lot of emotion, a lot of hurt. And I think they weren't happy with how they acquitted themselves in that particular game, whether it was, you know, silly fouls or bad defense or just an inability to maintain their composure over the course of those 40 minutes. And, you know, I think about how Caitlin presented herself after this game, and she was pretty stoic, but, like, not overwhelmingly, like, weepy or anything. Obviously, like, it's. It's a big deal to end your college career, but she seemed very at peace with how they had played. And, like, I look at Iowa, and the only adjustment I could think they'd make is just make more shots. Like, this was a good Iowa performance, this was a good Iowa team, and they just ran into someone who was better. And, like, for Caitlyn to have that perspective immediately afterwards, for Kate Martin and Lisa Bluder to have that perspective immediately afterwards, I thought was just really impressive. And the way they conduct themselves. And Caitlyn, obviously has been so good for basketball. Just, like, the way she plays, she's magnetic. People are just drawn to her and watching her. But she's also just a really good ambassador for the sport in terms of how she conducts herself off of the court. Obviously, Dawn Staley giving her the compliment, like, allows her to have that kind of grace, but to just be able to credit South Carolina in the moment, like, I'm. I'm proud of how we fought, but we lost to a better team. I thought that was just a nice note to end on.
- [27:03]
Fiona
I feel like, you know, it's a small sample size, but I felt like I saw a lot more maturity out of her in these last two games, specifically in this title game. After that first quarter, like, it became very clear that the better team, you know, the momentum was swinging in South Carolina's favor and that it was getting harder and harder for Iowa to do what it wanted to do. And like you said, Ben, Iowa is never out of a game. Caitlin had, I think, a lot, 11 points during a 67 second stretch in the first quarter. And so they're never completely out of a game. But in that fourth quarter, at one point, with, like, eight minutes left, there was a huddle, and I feel like freshman, sophomore, junior, and maybe even, like, beginning of the season, senior Caitlin would have, like, screamed, and all she said to her teammates was, play, play. And I just felt like that was a very mature moment for her. You know, I was watching her a lot, and I sort of was sitting across across from the bench and had a view of her and also everyone behind the bench, which includes her dad, and sort of the amount that they sort of communicate during games as well. Like, she just kept, like, looking up to her dad and, like, putting her fist in the air in terms of, like, you know, I read it as, like, you know, keep fighting, keep going. She was a lot. You know, she certainly complained to the refs, which is a hallmark of Caitlin Clark. You're not going to get rid of that. But I thought she did it a lot less in a game when a lot of eyes were on her. And I thought for her last college game, as she makes her move to the wnba, I saw a lot of maturity and growth in her. It's, again, a small sample size and we'll see what happens next. But yeah, I think just really reflective and, and mature in this, in this final appearance on a college court.
- [28:34]
Ben
And there really was nothing for her left to do. Like, I think that was, as you guys said, like South Carolina was just the better team. It was kind of what we talked about leading into Sunday's game, right? That like, Clark was the superior player. And if there's one player we will remember from this season, it is her. But if now there was one team we will remember for this season or who people will really reflect on, you know, it should be South Carolina, right? And for the history that they made, for the dominance that, that they created and just for their greatness overall.
- [29:04]
Sabrina
Are there any other little notes you want to mention from the game or from the weekend? One thing I keep thinking about is like Ashton Watkins, one free throw away from South Carolina, is bench outscoring Iowa 38 to nothing, which would have been perfect because their record was 38 nothing this year. Also, Asia Wilson making the half court shot at Team USA practice and saying it was a good omen for South Carolina over the weekend, considering every time she hit a half court shot. It was a very good omen for the Las Vegas Aces. This season was a fun note.
- [29:29]
Ben
I saw Sunday, Leticia and me here, one of the members of the Freshies. It seemed like post game she had been given a credential and was taking photographs. I'd be curious to see some of the photographs that she took of her players celebrating. And, you know, I wanted to know and I went up and talked to her. I was like, are you actually taking photos? And she, she said yes. So we'll see what, what she comes up with from the locker room celebration. But, you know, I thought it was great that she was included. Another moment, obviously, that I think we all saw that sticks out in a similar vein was Aaliyah Boston interviewing Dawn Staley on Friday night after South Carolina beat NC State. I thought that was one of, you know, a really touching moment from the weekend. And, you know, it just speaks to the bond that dawn still has with Aaliyah. With Leticia Ami here with Ty Harris, who was there, Alicia Gray with a number of other players, former players of hers, and they all came out and supported and I think you saw the love and joy and this really was for all of them together.
- [30:22]
Sabrina
And then Aaliyah Boston denying the opportunity to interview Don Staley on Sunday because she was so emotional and Don was so emotional and she knew she couldn't handle it.
- [30:29]
Fiona
Another Aaliyah Boston note. I think we need to appreciate also her athletic athleticism of being able to run in heels. Like there's a video of her sort of like taking off to the pile of all of the South Carolina players and she's in heels. And I just thought, wow, you look more athletic in heels than most people do in running shoes. Good job, Aaliyah. I guess that's why she's the reigning rookie of the year in sort of the perfect fashion of a post NCAA title game podcast. I am already home in Minneapolis because I took a God awful early flight out of Cleveland, but Ben actually needs to catch a flight right now, so we'll say goodbye to Ben. All right, Sabrina, as we look forward to next season, one of the pieces that came out on the site on Monday after the national title game was yore, I believe we didn't technically call it the way too early 24, 25 college rankings, though I think that's an appropriate name for it. You and I, when we were sitting together during the Final four game, were kind of going over this and I think my main takeaway from that was how weird it was to think about Stanford and the ACC and Texas and the sec. Because as we were going through it, I said it would be a lot more helpful if we went conference by conference. And when you said acc, Stanford, I said, what is going on? I am not ready for this yet, but here we are. Okay, so your top five heading into next season right now is South Carolina, UConn, Notre Dame, UCLA and Texas. I don't disagree with you. I know that doesn't make for good podcast fodder, but maybe just talk to me about how you made the differentiation there between those five teams and what stood out.
- [32:02]
Sabrina
Yeah, you know, in preparation for writing that, I looked back at my way too early rankings from this time a year ago and I was pretty pleased. There were 14 of the Sweet 16 teams were in the top 25 at this point last year. So if there were any surprises, they didn't come up on me. But also like NC State and USC were pretty low. Like, you know, both Elite Eight teams, NC State, obviously making the Final Four. So I'm not intending for this to be predictive. I think it's a good indicator of where teams are at this very moment. Obviously, transfers are to come, and still we have a couple days of WNBA draft declarations. People can still opt out of the draft even if they have chosen to enter the draft. But I think the hardest part was just trying to figure out how much of an impact freshmen are going to make. Because one of the things that, you know, going into last year, like, you know, I had USC at like number 23 because I thought Juju Watkins was gonna be really good, but I didn't know she was gonna be this good. And Notre Dame was a little bit lower than I might have anticipated because who knew what Hannah Hidalgo was going to do. And on and on and on. Like, it was just impossible to expect all of these freshmen to dramatically affect their team's success as much as they did in year one. And at this point, I'm not sure if that's a once in a generation kind of freshman class or if we should expect the freshmen to keep, keep progressing in terms of their talent level and their readiness because of how they're training and because of their experience in USA Basketball. So that was toughie for me because, like, I'm looking at UConn and yeah, they're bringing back a good core, but I'm still worried if everyone's gonna be healthy. Right. Like, we have this question about UConn every year, it seems, at this point, and Aaliyah Edwards and Nica Mueller, big losses, but how much can Sarah Strong really do in year one? Like, I don't know. And I think I sort of defaulted to. I'm expecting freshmen to be awesome right away. And that's, that's kind of what you're seeing with like, Notre Dame at number three. I'm expecting Kate Coval to be starting center ready to go at this moment, and Sarah Strong ready to perform, and Joyce Edwards filling in Camila Cardoso shoes. So that was like the number one thing that stood out to me was, oh, I'm, I'm like already expecting first year players to factor into this.
- [33:57]
Fiona
I feel like the transfers here is where it's gonna like, really shake things up because it just, you know, the transfer portal, there's already hundreds of players in there. We're going to have an updated transfer portal ranking on the site this week. We have to extend a top 25, and that still won't hit everyone who potentially is going to have an impact, but just the way that we've seen transfers affect games. I feel like Tahina Powpow is a perfect example with what she was able to do for South Carolina. Not sort of only bringing in that veteran leadership, but just her three point shooting, her passing. You know, she's a perfect example of someone who we all thought like, oh, she's a good transfer, but like she was thinking of going to tcu and not that that's necessarily a bad landing spot for her, but it's certainly not South Carolina. And then she gets inserted into the South Carolina lineup and it's like, oh, wow, okay, yes, got it. And so I think it's just the transfer portal. There's enough players in there right now that feel like they could really swing something. And I agree with you on Yukon. They feel like there may be one sort of interior presence transfer away from being, you know, neck and neck with South Carolina. Honestly, if everyone is healthy, but that's the biggest caveat ever, given that we can't just keep assuming they're going to be healthy because we need to remember what's happened the last three years. But if they are, that's huge. And then Notre Dame, again, there's the question of health. But if it's an Olivia Miles, Hannah Hidalgo backcourt, like, that's very, very scary. I think I'm getting really excited about the potential backcourts. I think your top five really highlight those heading into next year with Texas. Again, if Rory Harmon is healthy, slash, when she's healthy, she and Maddie Booker, sort of quasi point guard, wing, unicorn, everything for this Texas team, like the game is in good hands, I guess literally and metaphorically because there's a lot of really good guards coming into next year. And so I think we're going to see some really incredible performances. But I also think, you know, a lot of the coaches, as I was talking to them through this run in Albany and in Cleveland, they were talking about like, you know, they're game planning, they're getting their teams ready, they're making sure everyone's healthy and they're also in the portal constantly. Like everyone is currently recruiting while also getting ready to play games. And so there's a lot of multitasking happening right now. And it does feel like these top five teams, you know, players could still leave, but also players could still find their ways onto these rosters and, and that would swing your top 10 pretty significantly, which honestly makes the fact that you had 14 of the Sweet 16 teams on your top 25 last year. Even more impressive because the transfer portal was busy last year, too.
- [36:36]
Sabrina
Yeah, it's hard with transfers because a team like lsu, I'm kind of assuming they're just going to do well in the portal because that's what they have done in the Kamulki era.
- [36:43]
Fiona
Like, they're going to pick someone up, like, let's call it right now, they're going to pick up someone who is just going to either, like, knock our socks off or totally shock some people. It's coming sometime in the next seven days, let's just guess, right?
- [36:55]
Sabrina
And then a team like Oregon State, I kind of just wanted to give them a little bit of shine because I expect the Portal to significantly damage that roster, only to leave on. Olhofen is in the portal as of this moment. But, you know, just with Oregon State not really playing at a conference this upcoming season, and when they do play their conference game, so to speak, they'll be against the West Coast Conference. Twelve is probably not where they're going to land when we reconvene in October to do these rankings, but just kind of as like a measure of what they were over the course of the season and the fact that, like, there should be some honor, you know, for an elite, a team that only has lost one player technically, even though I don't expect that to last that way.
- [37:30]
Fiona
I was a little surprised to see Iowa State at 9. This is a team I think they have Final Four written all over them. I think Emily Ryan returning as, you know, sort of that veteran leadership presence. She has such a level head about her. But they also have your favorite player in the country. So I thought they made it into your top 10. And this is like, there's a ton of really good teams coming into next year, but if there's one team that I think is maybe a little low here, it might be Iowa State. And that's, you know, not taking away from the teams that are above them. But I do feel like that's a group that if I'm making my bracket for next year already, I'm penciling them in for the Final Four.
- [38:08]
Sabrina
Yeah, they were the hardest team to rank just because of, like, potential. But also, I mean, they're the highest team that didn't make the second weekend. Right. Like, they're behind only teams that made the sweet 16 and later.
- [38:18]
Fiona
I don't want to make it seem like you're disrespecting the Cyclones. There's clearly only respect coming from you for them.
- [38:24]
Sabrina
I also think it's just like interesting to think about how teams respond to expectations. Right? Like not everyone South Carolina and just shows up every night and takes every team's best shot and still wins. Like it's one thing Iowa State to go into this season with no one really knowing what to expect out of them and being able to surprise some teams. Like they had all these second half comebacks because more veteran teams think they had them put away. And like now there's expectation. Right. Like you said, you're writing them into the final four. Audi Crooks obviously explodes onto the national stage with that 40 point game against Maryland and then they take Stanford down to the wire at Maples. So there's no sleeping on Iowa State this year. So I think that's going to be something that they have to navigate. And you know the Big 12 was a hard conference for me to figure out just because like Kansas State returns who I think is the best player in the Big 12 in Aoka Lee. But then they also had like a weird finish that season. How much of that is Yoki's injuries? I don't know but she's also had an injury riddled career at Kansas State. So there's just a lot to navigate, a lot to think about in the next four months. You know, as these rosters really come.
- [39:23]
Fiona
Together, I think the last team we should highlight simply because you know, we spent so much time on this podcast talking about South Carolina and Iowa. You have Iowa at 20. I feel like they are going to be a team that people are like very, you know, mixed on in terms of these top 20 fives. What about the Hawkeyes? How do you put them there?
- [39:41]
Sabrina
Yeah, I mean obviously they're, they're losing three starters including maybe the best player in college basketball history. At least one of the, one of the best players in college basketball history. So there's a lot to replace. But I just think the experience of having played in all these big games and being in all these big moments is going to help Taylor McCabe and Kylie Ferbach and even the players who weren't really on the court at this point. Just like having been a part of Iowa, like the stage is not going to get too big for them. And I think Lisa Bluder is a good coach and they have Hannah Stalke who I expect to have a really good season in the Big Ten, probably like an all Big Ten season. So you know her a falter McCabe. Like it's, it's a good crop of players like and I just think they're well coached. So it's a team that kind of belongs in the top 25, even if, Lord, I have no idea what this team is going to look like when they actually get onto the court. Like, what do possessions in Iowa look like when Caitlin Clark is involved? I've completely forgotten.
- [40:34]
Fiona
Well, I think there's, like, a lot of people, like, new fans to the game kind of telling on themselves when they're like, oh, my gosh, Iowa is going to suck next year. And it's like there was this player named Megan Gustafson. Like, people forget that she wore an Iowa uniform and won, like, almost every national player of the year award a few years back, with the exception of the one that Sabrina Ionescu won. And so, like, this is an offense and a team that knows how to feature a dominant big. And you've talked about it on this podcast before. Like, Iowa develops post players really, really well. You know, I was sitting next to Doug Feinberg, who writes for the Apartment, and during the game, during the national title game, and we weren't talking very much, but at one point, Hannah made a move to the left side of the basket, and I turned to Doug and I said, that might be the most dominant and aggressive move I've ever seen Hannah Stolke make at Iowa. And he said, I think you are absolutely right. Like, it was sort of this glimpse of, like, if she turns it on and if, you know, Lisa and Jan Jensen can sort of find that switch for her, she's going to be very, very good. She had to play bigger this year. You know, she's only six two. She moved into the center spot because of sort of how this team was constructed. But, you know, this Iowa group is definitely going to go into the portal, I think, and try to find some pieces. And given how Caitlin operated in this read and react offense, I think there are going to be some. You know, maybe not every guard in the country wants to play in Iowa City, but I think there's going to be a lot of people that are interested in that offense because of how they saw it sort of operate when it was at its best with Caitlin Clark in it. And like you said, there's enough of a core there that knows how to play well in that system that they seem, you know, I don't think they're going to just totally drop into oblivion, like a lot of people think. I think 20 feels really appropriate for them right now. But I also, you know, we can't count them out of being a Sweet 16 team next year because I think they're one or two transfers away from that. Yeah.
- [42:29]
Sabrina
And I mean, that's why I'm really forward to the transfer portal rankings coming out later this week, because it's hard to keep track of everybody who's gotten into the portal, and there are a lot of really big names. I mean, I had difficulty with Ohio State because I feel like they've lost half their roster this offseason and, like, who knows where Diana Collins goes or where Ricky Harris ends up. But yeah, just the. The portal is such a. A new factor in terms of completely shifting the dynamic, the balance of power across college basketball. And these decisions are going to have just monumental impacts on what we see. It seems like it's a very long time away, but it's really not that long.
- [43:02]
Fiona
What is time right now? I mean, truly, we are taping this right now. It is like 9:47 Central Time, 10:47 Eastern Time. You and I both feel like. I won't speak for you, but I feel like I could. I feel very tired.
- [43:17]
Sabrina
I'm zapped.
- [43:18]
Fiona
It's done. Zapped is a good way to put it. I'm going to require a lot of coffee today. I think my body is 80% coffee at this point, but I think it's been worth it. Like, the last few weeks of this season have been. It's been a blast. Like, yeah, I'll be honest, Albany is a city. Not my favorite place to spend a week. Six nights in a Hampton Inn in Albany. I don't super recommend that as a place to go in late March, but, you know, we had incredible basketball and being in Iowa City for the first two rounds and being in Cleveland with everyone, we had, you know, a really big team and it was, it was awesome to be around everyone. And also just to see the increased media presence overall. Like, obviously, we've seen the TV numbers improve this season drastically, but just the number of reporters who were there and the number of people who were asking really good and smart questions. And not that that hasn't happened before, but it was just like, it was very cool to just be in a press room that was packed.
- [44:18]
Sabrina
Yeah.
- [44:19]
Fiona
For women's basketball. And like, you know, as annoyed as I was every time, like, a camera smacked me in the head, like, or like a boom mic is, like, lurching over my shoulder. The sort of flip side of my annoyance was always like, thank God everyone else is finally catching up. Like, this is, this is a really cool time to be in this space. Yeah.
- [44:39]
Sabrina
I mean, when I came to the Athletic a year and A half ago to cover women's basketball, I was. I mean, obviously very excited to be in this space because I think, you know, there was an opportunity to tell cool stories about a sport that, like, has been undercovered for a very long time. But I also sort of bracing myself for the fact that, like, I came from covering the NBA and, like, I was covering the Lakers in Los Angeles and covering the Clippers, and I did not think that there would be more eyes on the teams that I was covering now compared to the NBA this quickly. I mean, it's. It's awesome. Like, I thought that I'd have to, you know, take a little step back in terms of the people in my regular life who were interested in what I was doing, and that has not been the case at all. Like, everybody I know is talking about Iowa and the Iowa LSU game and Paige Beckers, and it's. It's very exciting. It's just. It's gratifying to be a part of, and I'm just very thankful to have had the opportunity to cover a tournament for the second straight year. That obviously took it out of me. Like, you can hear it in my voice. But I am very happy to have, you know, been a part of our team and everything that we've done.
- [45:34]
Fiona
The first thing that came to mind was just saying, you're doing great, honey. Like, I was. I just, like, kept. Whatever that means meme is. I kept telling myself that I was like, every time I was like, I just need another coffee, and that meme would pop into my head of, like, you're doing great, honey. And, like, pat myself on the head and go get another coffee and just think, like, man, I wish they had an IV of this stuff, because I would have been hooked up to it.
- [45:54]
Sabrina
But I think that's a good place to end.
- [45:56]
Fiona
So that feels really appropriate for where we're at right now mentally. I hope this wasn't too rambly for people, but it does give you insight into how hard we're working to make sure that we are delivering on all of these stories for you guys, a huge shout out to our entire team that we had in Cleveland this week. Not just myself and Sabrina and Ben, but Cameron Teague Robinson, Nicole Auerbach, Grace Rayner, Scott Doctorman, Jim Trotter, and Shannon Ryan, who is our editor, who is leading our coverage, as well as editors across the country that were also reading our stories, because this is a really large team. But I think we had eight people there, which felt pretty significant and really, really cool. And despite that we never actually took a full team photo. Eight of our brains and we never remembered to take a full team photo. So maybe someone can photoshop something together. But we do have a photo from our last floor podcast of the year that we took in the Cavaliers practice facility so we can tweet that out later this week to remember the good times.
- [46:57]
Sabrina
It's just so funny to think about the last podcast we recorded in Dallas. How we were sitting as far away as possible while still being able to hear each other because of like the technology of the phone in the live room. And this one we're literally passing around this makeshift mic and sitting together as close as possible without literally speaking into each other. But yeah, we've come a long way.
- [47:15]
Fiona
It's a really high class operation we run here, making sure everything is in tip top shape. I will regrettably say that there were no German Shepherds breaking into any of our podcasts during this tournament. I didn't see a single, actually, I didn't see, now that I think of it, a single bomb sniffing dog at the Final Four this year. So perhaps that's a security oversight for the Rocket Mortgage field house, the ncaa. I'll make sure I get that question at Charlie Baker asap because I will do the reporting that people really care about here.
- [47:44]
Sabrina
Yeah, and just one last thank you to our podcast producer Tanika, who just took our audio at Wild hours of all days and made sure that we had our podcast ready to go during the course of this tournament. So thank you all for listening to that and to Tanika for making that possible. Possible. Chantel, unless you have anything to add, I think we are done rambling at this point because you and I need to decompress me for like 24 hours because the WNBA draft is next Monday and it never stops. All right, so this has been the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Make sure you are reading everything on theathletic.com we have so much that you can catch up on. It's going to take you like a full week to get through everything we read about the NCAA Tournament. I know that because I still haven't read anything we've written about the NCAA Tournament. But thank you for reading and thank you for supporting our team. Thank you for listening to the podcast and we will be back on Friday to talk about more questions from this upcoming season and maybe put a final bow on 2024 as we head into the playoffs.
- [48:42]
Ben
It's safe to assume there will be.
- [48:44]
Chantelle
A few calls made by the refs.
- [48:45]
Fiona
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Ben
You heard that right, 99%. So make a good call for your.
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Chantelle
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Sabrina
Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
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Fiona
Learn more at discover.com creditcard this podcast.
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Sabrina
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Ben
Hey guys.
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Adrian
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Fiona
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Sabrina
So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling.
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Fiona
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Fiona
Listen to Giggly Squad on ACAST or.
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Sabrina
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Fiona
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