← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Sue Bird Joins the Pod! + Money and the NCAA
01:00:46
Loading summary
Transcript128 lines
- [00:00]
Zena Keda
How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support available@AmazonBusiness.com when Pro Defensive end Cam.
- [00:24]
Ben Pickman
Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawke to learn how AI can help as a football player.
- [00:32]
Zena Keda
There. We're really focused on the X's and nos. It's fun because it's a strategy game as well and I think that transitions well into the business world. There's so much data underlying every single.
- [00:41]
Sue Bird
Thing that you're doing in your business and having a way to unify all that data. This is like electricity.
- [00:46]
Shantelle Jennings
This is a major platform shift and.
- [00:48]
Zena Keda
I think we're all learning together.
- [00:50]
Ben Pickman
Ready to raise your AI game? Find your winning edge at Microsoft.com challengers as you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM. This season we'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a 1500 dollars first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic make your first deposit of at least $10. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 In New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 Massachusetts 1-800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico. First bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a 1500 dollars first bet offer on your first wager.
- [02:26]
Zena Keda
Hello everyone and welcome to no Off Season presented by Amazon Business. I'm Zena Keda.
- [02:31]
Shantelle Jennings
I'm Shantelle Jennings.
- [02:32]
Jessica Hawke
And I'm Be Pickman.
- [02:34]
Zena Keda
And today on the show we're taking some time to check in on everything that's happened in the NCAA space since the season ended. It's not ended for some of these coaches. We're going to talk a little bit about the big house settlement that just came through, whether it's possible to actually build a program in this day and age. And we're going to drill down on money. How does it work in the ncaa? How does this recent ruling affect how players are getting paid and how much? And we have the impact on what that looks like in the WN as well. Chantel Jennings, of course, is behind it. She's here with us. We're gonna talk a little bit about that and the CBA negotiations as well. And then we're keeping the star power going. We got Sue Bird coming on the show, guys. I'm very excited to talk to her in a little bit, find out about some things that she's got going on of which she has many and get some hot takes from her. But first, let's look back on the weekend in the wnba. Ben, you were there at United center for this weekend. Chicago sky faced off against the Indiana Fever for the second time this season. Bring us inside the arena. What was it like?
- [03:40]
Jessica Hawke
Well, I like that we're kind of making this a weekly tradition where you throw to me about the game I was at over the weekend. And it is like a blowout of a game. Maybe I'm the problem for the teams that I go to watch the bench. I don't think I've watched a competitive.
- [03:52]
Zena Keda
There you go.
- [03:53]
Jessica Hawke
Yeah, I haven't watched very many competitive basketball games in person this year. And Saturday night's game between the Fever and the sky was not very competitive. It was a 27 point win for the Indiana Fever. It got up to 30 early in the fourth quarter. I mean, also at the scene in that it was a great crowd. It was the first ever WNBA game at the United center, which is the home of the NBA Chicago Bulls. A lot of people talking Jordan Bulls, all the stuff in the rafters, all the history in the arena that was very cool for a lot of people there. And it was the first game again that the Chicago sky had ever played there. And they ended up playing in front of the largest crowd they had ever played in front of more 19,000 people packed into the arena. So that was pretty cool. For their head coach, Tyler Marsh, it was a pretty momentous occasion considering that he said he had first coached in the United center back in 2020 when he was with the NBA's Toronto Raptors staff and they had an All Star game. The NBA All Star Game that year was at the United center. And then his first time going to a WNBA All Star game coaching was also in Chicago a couple years later. W All Star was in Chicago. And then of course, being involved in that, that was all pretty cool. That's the positive.
- [05:04]
Zena Keda
There you go.
- [05:04]
Jessica Hawke
The negative really was that a balloon popped in the arena. A balloon really popped energy wise around the 529 mark of the first quarter when Courtney Vandersloot went down with what we later learned was an ACL tear. It both changed the entire encore action and also just the tenor of the night in the arena for the sky and the sky fans in particular in attendance.
- [05:24]
Zena Keda
I mean, Courtney Vandersloot is a legend for Chicago, having won a championship there, leaving the New York Liberty. Coming back. This was an opportunity to kind of right the ship and really be that veteran focal point leader for Chicago and had been getting some momentum at least building in that. And now, Chantel, you're talking about someone going down at this point in her journey, being an older vet in the WNBA and also like recently having had a child addition to the family at least. Like, what is that? Like, I know you have a young child yourself, Chantel, but like, I can't imagine having to balance a professional sports career and then now the mental angst of an injury like that and then also having to be a present mom and partner.
- [06:10]
Shantelle Jennings
Yeah, I love that. For all things parenthood, we turn to me on the podcast, I feel like we have Sabrina's scale and we can.
- [06:16]
Zena Keda
Have like we're the only one. Chantel, you're a resident mom.
- [06:19]
Shantelle Jennings
Childhood thoughts? I don't know. I mean, I can relate to Courtney a little bit here and her wife. Like, even if you're not a professional athlete, even if you have a job that's quote unquote, a normal job like ours, it's really hard to have a three month old. It's really, really hard to have a three month old. You're not sleeping much at that point, if at all. You're hopefully sleeping more than a few hours a night. And to have even two parents that are not injured in that Situation challenging at best. Really, really challenging. You're climbing uphill both ways sort of a thing. So it's very tough. I had joked with Ben earlier that my husband, who is a former great athlete and he is now a middle aged man, when our child was very young, you know, we were talking and he was like, oh, I think I'm going to go play some pickup soccer. And I said, and this is a man who tore his ACL once playing soccer. And I said to be clear, if you hurt yourself badly at this soccer game to play pickup. And I'm not equating the two, WNBA is a career. He was playing pickup soccer. You know, Courtney was doing her job. My husband wanted to play a game. I said if you hurt yourself playing that game, don't bother coming home. Don't even come home because I'll be so mad at you. I need 100% of you at home to take care of this kid because it is, it's tough. It's tough even on the best of days. So I feel for everyone and hopefully it's a speedy recovery and not just for her basketball career, but in terms of being able to care for their little one, obviously.
- [07:45]
Zena Keda
Exactly. I think the human side really is resonating with a lot of different people because of that very real reality in her personal life. But then, I mean Ben, you think about the basketball element of this, as I mentioned, like Chicago needing that guard to help organize things out on the floor. And that is what Courtney Vandersloot could provide. What does this mean for the Chicago sky who were already having a tough season as it is?
- [08:12]
Jessica Hawke
Yeah, I mean you used the right word there, Xena, organized. Because that was really one of the key roles that Courtney Vandersuit played for the Chicago sky in her return. Just a veteran presence who could get them into offense could help direct, you know, where people needed to go and when knew what reads to want to make and when she really was their engine is another word that they use with her. And again an all time great passer. The implications of this from a basketball side are pretty significant because now suddenly their guard depth chart not as deep as some of their peers. Mariah Jefferson, another backup guard on that team, has been dealing with an injury. Rachel Banham, another veteran. We'll see what role she has. It seems like it'll be Haley Van Lith, the number 11 pick in April's draft who is going to step into a much bigger here she had played I think 26 minutes, a career high, entered the game midway through the first period, right when Vandersuit went out, that's the earliest she has checked into a game all year. And it's going to be a real learning experience with Haley Van Lyth. Run to the point. That's not to say she won't grow into it and there won't be bright spots, but I think it's fair to assume that, you know, it's not going to be as easy for them to get into offense. And that is really significant because this is a team who is built on around their front court, right. And so much of why Vanders who returned and her importance was to try and draw the most and the best out of Camila Cardozo and Angel Reese, right? And so you take that player out now the question is how are those players going to thrive in Tyler Marsh's system, especially on the offensive end. We've seen Angel Reese right now she's still rebounding at, you know, a top of the league level, but she's, her scoring is down, she's averaging just nine points per game, her field goal percentage way down. She's shooting just 27% on post op opportunities and just around 30%. I think it's 31, 32% on pick and roll opportunities when she is the roller. Like she currently is not generating her own offense just off the catch, right. And so she's doing it off, you know, a lot of second chance opportunities. And so you take someone like Vander Sloot who can dive to the rim, who can, you know, find her on kind of scoop passes as she's, you know, driving to the basket, who can help create in those pick and roll scenarios. You take that player out of the equation. Suddenly it's like, you know, who's throwing the, the post pass, right, the post feed to Reese and Cardozo. Like there's just a big question of how are they going to generate offense. And you take that vet out a lot more on Ariel Atkins Shoulders too. Another veteran guard, but like this guy, you know, it's cliche. It's a little corny to do the sky is falling joke. We saw that a lot over the weekend. But like they're certainly reeling, right? Like, yeah, certainly the effects of Saturday are going to linger a lot longer than just a one night basketball game at the United Center.
- [10:51]
Zena Keda
Yeah, it's what's becoming apparently clear is that the sky have a bevy of post talent. They've got maybe more than they can, they can handle in a half court situation, but they definitely need guards to be able to space the floor and even allow space for those post players to maneuver and operate. So this will be a very interesting period of time. And we've seen Hayley Van Liff have to change her game going from Louisville to LSU over onto tcu. Like she has had to reorient herself in different ways as a point guard, a guard off the ball, etc. And so this will just be yet another opportunity. Now let's move over to the Indiana Fever, who are also kind of reeling from injuries, but also a new development. They're already without Caitlin Clark, and now they're gonna be without head coach Stephanie White, who is stepping away for personal reasons. And yes, the Fever completely decimated the sky 79, 52. But even without Stephanie White, Caitlin Clark, what does this say, this big win say about how the Fever are adjusting with these absences?
- [11:55]
Jessica Hawke
Yeah, I mean, their balance was on full display, you know, started with Kelsey Mitchell, went down Aaliyah Boston. We saw Arie McDonald, who's in our hardship contract, come in and she's been really impactful, I think, averaging nine points per game in her first two games with the Fever playing more than 25 minutes a night. We should say that Stephanie White actually returned to the Fever on Monday. She'd missed Saturday night's game for personal reasons, but she was back with the team on Monday afternoon, which is certainly a good sign, all things considered. Austin Kelly, one of her assistant coaches, took on the acting head coach duty on the weekend. But still, in terms of absences around the team, you hit it, Xena, caitlin Clark said on Monday afternoon, or Steph White actually said that Clark will miss her fifth consecutive game with this quad strain. They play the Atlanta Dream on Tuesday night. So the earliest we're going to see Caitlin Clark back in action is going to be potentially Saturday when Indiana plays the New York Liberty again. If you remember, she went out for the first time. She suffered that left quad strain she's dealing with against the Liberty back on May 24, I believe it was. So we will see if she will return by then. She's ready to start ramping up is what White said. But they also said we're going to be smart, we're going to be cautious. They're going to play the long game here. Sophie Cunningham, another Fever wing who's been out for some time with an ankle injury, also limited in practice. So we will see. The good thing is Arie McDonald, as I mentioned, she's been instant impact off the bench, a very, very good signing and has helped give them a lift. Indiana 2. Two so far in their four games without Clark.
- [13:24]
Shantelle Jennings
Ben, I'm really curious and I'm curious what you make of this because when Indiana signed Dewana Bonner this offseason, one of the first things they said about her is she's a multi dimensional scorer. This is someone who came into this season as the league's fourth all time leading scorer. Dewana knows how to get a bucket. She's had a long career. We haven't seen her come off the bench since 2012. And so she's in a new role this year. I think no one expects, I mean, look no further than the sky. When there's new pieces. It takes a while to gel, it takes a while to come together. We're eight games in. I'm not saying that the cake needs to be fully baked to this point, but what do you make of the fact that like two of her best scoring games have come during this stretch when Caitlin has been sidelined. She had six points against the sky. So not like a huge scoring night. But you know, we're used to seeing duana put up 15, 17 points a game. Like, is that something we're going to see this season from her at Indiana?
- [14:12]
Jessica Hawke
I think that's a really good question, Chantel. And it was something, you know, we talked about a little bit on the show last week and so I'd recommend people checking that out too. But like her role, they're still very much trying to figure out her role as a scorer, as a secondary playmaker. You know, she's taken just six shots per game this year. That is significantly like by a large margin, her career low. We saw her take I think one and two shots respectively in games earlier this year. She went from starting to now coming off the bench like I certainly expected when Clark went out with this injury that we were gonna see like an instant boom from Dewana Bonner. We saw that in spurts. I want to say she had 21 points one night against Washington. I believe that is the case. But like, you know, if your take, if you're sitting back and you're saying the last four games or the last two games rather, who has been the Fever's best bench player? Like not a crazy take to say that's Erie McDonald. Like she has come in and she's played a ton of minutes and she's been really impactful and that's great for Eric McDonald as she looks for, you know, her future next opportunity. Less great if you are Dewana Bonner and you were brought in there as a high profile off season acquisition. So, no, I mean, I think it's a big question. We'll see what Indiana. You know, I think we're gonna have to see down the road what Indiana really does learn about their team and their rotations during this stretch.
- [15:28]
Zena Keda
I think there's a lot of teams that are asking that question about their rotations, their lineups, their productivity. One of those games are one that I went to over the course of the weekend. But before we get into that, Paige Beckers good news has been cleared from her concussion and could be back on the court. Ben, give me a little bit more insight on that.
- [15:47]
Jessica Hawke
Yeah, she has been cleared from her concussion protocol. She missed a game over the weekend with an illness. So we're still kind of waiting to see a status report there. But as you said, Z, she could be back as soon as Wednesday when Dallas plays Phoenix.
- [15:57]
Zena Keda
Okay. Very, very exciting. Now, I know Sabrina is not here. That does not mean I'm not gonna say the word Sabrina scale, but I have to say that she's not here to give her Sabrina scale. So I know if she was here, she would be talking about the Valkyries. She would be talking about the Valkyries, particularly because of that crazy ending at Chase center of 9568. Blowout of the loss Vegas Aces first blowout in franchise history. And from watching that game, it was so evident that the Aces were focused on offense. And if they could not provide offense, their defense suffered. It was so evident that from the very beginning of the game, the way that the Valkyries are playing defense, which it seems as if they're cementing their defensive identity, folks, the way that they were playing on defense and swarming and digging in and forcing Asia out of her spot and packing the paint, making it almost impossible to find any spots at the rim in the mid range anywhere. It completely disrupted everything that Las Vegas wanted to do. And it got them mad. Like, you saw Asia Wilson be visibly frustrated out on the floor, and it trickled throughout the entire game. There was so much miscommunication from the Aces. There were so many different elements of their game that just felt as if they weren't on the same page. Offensively, they could not make a shot outside. I mean, they. It was tough. Like, I got multiple texts over the weekend asking me what's wrong with the Aces, like what's going on? And we can definitely ask. I want to ask that question to both of you. But I also want to give credit to the Valkyries because this was a Game in which their offense was humming that five out offense that has been taking a little bit while to click. It was clicking on the other day. Their spacing was there, their cuts were there, they were hitting their outside shots. Kayla Thornton I think believed 20 point gain, double double. Unbelievable performance from Tip immediately was aggressive. She said that that set the tone for the rest of the team. Cecchi Zandalicini, who just now has left to go represent Italy in Eurobasket, Unbelievable. Way to say is sayonara. No, I think that's Spain.
- [18:07]
Jessica Hawke
Ciao, ciao.
- [18:08]
Zena Keda
I was like Italian. There you go. Way to say ciao to your team as you're on your way out. Just great basketball. And then of course, Veronica Burton changing her identity from a defensive stalwart to this Steph Curry esque. I'm getting to the rack and I'm going to get to my spots and you're going to foul me and I'm going to get to the line and I'm going to hit them all. Like it's just unbelievable performance. So give credit to the Valkyries, but let's talk about the Aces real quick in honor of Sabrina Scales. What are we seeing, Ben? What's happening?
- [18:36]
Jessica Hawke
I mean, I think there were first of all some alliteration. You could have done Ben's ballot, you could have done Chantel's census. We could have gone with our own alliterative ranking devices here. But you know, I'll, I'll acknowledge the Sabrina Scales. I mean you called out some of the important things that kind of caught my eyes. And I will say, like I was in Chicago, as I said at United center, there were a bunch of people on both teams that I was just chatting with and like people saw that scoreline of the Valkyries and the Aces, you know, basically a 30 point blowout. And everyone was like, oh, I got to watch that back and like see what really happened. And I was certainly one of those people. The thing that caught my eye and really watching the second quarter especially, which is when the Valkyries blew the game open. It went from I want to say like a two to five point game at the start of the quarter to a 20 point game at halftime was just the amount of possessions in which Golden State had five players at one moment or another just touched the paint on the defensive end of the floor. You watched it so often they had five players who at least had one foot kind of touching the painted area when whether it was Asia Wilson caught the basketball at the elbow, whether it was when a guard was coming off A drive. They really condensed the paint and they dared the Aces to make three point shots. And what we saw in the first quarter was that the Aces had six turnovers before they had made even one three point shot. Las Vegas this year they're a pretty two point heavy team in that they have their second fewest baskets around the league, percentage of baskets that are assisted. And they lead the league in unassisted twos. Right. Last year they were closer to league average in both. Now they have some really great, you know, scorers who can score in isolation can get to the basket and score twos. Asia Wilson being one of them. Jewel Lloyd, Chelsea Gray, Jackie Young. But like the evaluators just made it really hard. They just condensed everything and they dare the Aces to make three point shots and they just didn't. Especially in the second quarter. And in the first half or first quarter when that game blew open, Jackie Young really struggled. You know, Jewel Lloyd didn't exactly play great either. Same with Chelsea Gray. It was just like not a great performance. And Becky Hammond called out the effort there of her team. And that is something she's talking about. Like, we can't coach effort. You know, you can kind of tinker with the schemes. It won't pass the first time and it won't be the last time that they play a team that packs the pain against them. But you know, I'm sure if you're the Aces coaching staff, that effort question is one they're thinking about as this week begins.
- [20:52]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. There will be nights in which they're hitting shots and things are going to open up and that spacing is going to be there. There's going to be and that's going to be allow more things to happen in the paint. But even beyond hitting shots and even beyond being able to get to your spots that you'd prefer, you gotta play deep, you gotta be able to guard the pick and roll well. You gotta be able to scramble. That was one of the things that the Valkyries took advantage of so well was the swing. Swing the drive, kick out to the corner, swing up, open three. I cannot imagine. I could literally. It happened like five times throughout the game. So it definitely raised some eyebrows on what the heck is going on with the Aces because their core is there. Jackie Young, Chelsea Gray, Asia Wilson there, add in Julie Lloyd. But it still seems as if they've got to figure out and wrinkle out some of the folds of this off season, the moves that were made, the new faces that are in there, and also just realizing they are still a championship caliber team. So very curious to see how that rolls out for the rest of the season. I don't count them out. It's just going to take a while.
- [21:54]
Shantelle Jennings
You know, when we talk about those championship caliber teams, like when I think of the teams that are in those conversations at any level of the game, it's that they answer the call. Like if you're going to have a team that packs the PA and say says we dare you to shoot threes where the fourth worst three point shooting defense in the, in the league have at it, you got to hit them. Like that's what championship teams do. They answer the call and it was like this was a time where two of your top three point shooters go oh of six from beyond the arc. You're shooting 24% when a team is basically saying have at it. Like you got to do better than that if you're, if you're a championship caliber team. And I think the Aces are there, but this was a time that they just didn't hit the mark there and it was, it was theirs for the taking if they wanted it.
- [22:33]
Zena Keda
And this is why exactly what you're saying, why Minnesota is a true championship caliber team. And I think I'll clear it up and clean up what I said. I think that the Aces are a championship pedigree team. They have the pedigree to be able to do it. But are they at that caliber right now? No. You look at Minnesota Dallas on Sunday, 57, 56. Entering the third quarter, those teams were close. It was a close matchup. And then Minnesota did what? Chantel answered the call, blew them out in the fourth quarter. 81, 65 is that last score. So this is going to be a question for the Aces. Can you answer the call right now? We're going to answer the call on the other side of this break, which is NCAA has a new ruling and we got to figure out how does that impact everything, especially the money. How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support available@AmazonBusiness.com.
- [23:45]
Ben Pickman
When Pro Defensive end Cam Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawke to learn how AI can help as a football player.
- [23:55]
Zena Keda
We're really focused on the X's and Nos. It's fun because it's a strategy game as well, and I think that transitions well into the business world. There's so much data underlying every single.
- [24:04]
Sue Bird
Thing that you're doing in your business and having a way to unify all that data. This is like electricity.
- [24:09]
Jessica Hawke
This is a major platform shift and.
- [24:11]
Zena Keda
I think we're all learning together.
- [24:12]
Ben Pickman
Ready to raise your AI game? Find your winning edge at Microsoft.com challengers as you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM. This season we'll be using BetMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a 1500 dollars first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthletic. Make your first deposit of at least $10. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 in New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050 in Massachusetts, 1, 800, bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 in Puerto Rico, first bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino, Casino and Hotel. Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [25:39]
Zena Keda
So now we're going to turn our attention to some big news coming out of the ncaa. I saw this on a newsletter that I get and I sat down immediately. I was like getting ready for the day and I read the entire article that this new settlement has come down and it's been settled. This is something that has been going on. We've talked to Chantelle about this. She's gonna go into the details here, but We've been talking for a while, and it's been kind of floating. There were some aspects of the case that needed to be settled. Well, guess what, it is all official now. And so we got Chantelle Jennings to break it down. Ben and I have some questions, and we're gonna make sure that you all are on the same page with us. So the house settlement, there was a trio of lawsuits that claimed the NCAA was illegally limiting the earning power of college athletes. Chantelle, tell us a bit more about the ruling that finally came down.
- [26:29]
Shantelle Jennings
Yeah, I guess, you know, like, the TLDR of this is that colleges will now officially and legally pay student athletes. Like this has been happening for a long time. Maybe not from university specifically, but like under the table in the last few years as NIL was legalized. And we saw sort of the birth of collectives, which is a group of donors or fundraisers around a university being able to use finances to basically recruit players to schools. We've seen it work extraordinarily well. We've seen it work to sort of success levels, and we've seen it work not at all. But the amount of influx of cash that has been in college sports of late high, but in the entirety of history of the ncaa, also pretty high, depending on the sport you're in. And so now it's just leg universities will be able to pay their student athletes. The NCAA is hoping that this curbs collectives, which is that group of donors that I was talking about, that ability to sort of pay for recruitment versus a valid business purpose that will now be legislated by an outside group called the College Sports Commission. Deloitte is going to run something called nil go, which is going to look at every single nil deal over $600, which for people who are listening, there are a lot of women's basketball deals that are more than $600. And this group is going to say, yes, that is. That's fair market value, or no, that's not fair market value. You know, I was talking with a coach today, and it was like I said, you know, you've got some clarity. And they said, yeah, we've got some clarity. Now let's just wait for the next lawsuits to file in. I was like, yep, yep, it's coming soon. Because starting two days ago or three days ago, when our listeners will be listening to this, NIL Go is in effect, and starting in July, so a few weeks from now, universities will officially pay their college athletes.
- [28:11]
Zena Keda
And that's the thing that's so vague. About all of this is because, yes, it's great. Colleges can now legally pay their students. And that seems as if you're now bringing some regulation, some structure, some parameters as to how to do this. Because before this settlement, how were college athletes getting paid typically? You mentioned the collectives, you mentioned the donors. Like, what was that? That kind of. I don't know. I don't want to call it a black market. But how did that work without this settlement before?
- [28:41]
Shantelle Jennings
It's funny because, like, I've been covering college sports for, you know, 15 years now, and when we used to talk about nil, name, image and likeness, like, if you would have asked me, like, what is nil? It was, I would think of it and I'd be like, oh, if Xena wants to go back to her hometown and run a women's basketball camp for high schoolers, she can use all the Yale logos and stuff that she wants. She can, like, talk about Yale. She can do all of that, and she can use Yale as a part of that to make money. And all of these high school girls, junior high girls, boys, whoever it is that wants to pay you $500 a kid for your camp, like, you can make thousands of dollars in the summer as, like, basically using the Yale logo. Like that, to me, was a trainer.
- [29:20]
Zena Keda
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:21]
Shantelle Jennings
That's not what happened. Obviously. I think, you know, maybe in some corners of the college sports world that happened that way. But there's sort of like what coaches had started calling the real, which is when we think of athletes like Flage, like her Powerade commercial, that's quote unquote, real nil to coaches, or Paige Becker's Nike deal, quote, unquote, real nil. And then there was sort of this other world of collectives where it was like, we will pay you $300,000 to come to our school or to even think of it in another sport. But obviously fresh of mind, if you were watching sports this weekend, Nisherie Kennedy, the Texas Tech softball pitcher, made more than a million dollars from Stanford to go to Texas Tech. Under the new NIL legislation. That's a no go because it came from the Texas Tech collective. And that million dollars, it was like, come to our school, pitch for our team. Here's a million bucks that doesn't fly in this new age of college sports. And so there are different ways it was all happening. And now with the house settlement, you throw in the fact that every team is going to have some amount of money potentially, and it'll differ by school, by conference of how Much their program has to basically pay the team. And how that is divvied up will depend on how the coach or the GM decides. What we know is that the maximum a school can spend this year on college sports is 20.5 million. But past that, it's, it's totally up to the school. Like, is College Football getting 90%? You know, is, are they getting 85%? Is that extra 5% going elsewhere? So there is some clarity. There are still a lot more question marks that are out there, though, too.
- [30:56]
Jessica Hawke
I think you're going to probably say, repeat exactly what you just said about more question marks than answers here. But before we get into, you know, what the change means, can you just say a little bit more, Chantal, on the, the nil portion of this, because you mentioned that there's going to need to be an approval process for deals that are over $600, I believe, by this new entity. I just imagine it'll be like a restaurant that is just getting Nonstop orders like 24, 7, 365 days a year. Because you're saying that one entity is going to need to approve nil deals for, for every college athlete.
- [31:29]
Shantelle Jennings
Right.
- [31:30]
Jessica Hawke
This is not just women's basketball players. This is football. This is softball, baseball, track. Like one group of people. I mean, I don't know how many interns they're going to need to hire to just like check the box here. How is anyone going to moderate, legislate, work through all the deals that are coming in in any kind of timely and legal fashion? How will any of that work?
- [31:52]
Shantelle Jennings
Well, Ben, should we maybe illustrate what my face just did as you were saying that to people who are listening on their ph. Because I would say it was my skeptical face, which might be a generous way of putting it. They're not. That's the thing. And I actually asked Charlie Baker, this the NCAA president, when I spoke with him during the tournament, I said, you know, you're going to have, there's so many eyes on women's college basketball, specifically during the NCAA tournament. And you have these deals that are like quick turn deals. Like, let's say a player hits a huge buzzer beater over whoever. Let's say it's like South Carolina or UConn in the first round. This is historic. Never happened before. Oh my gosh. This player who's maybe on like a 15 or a 16 seed team has a very small window probably to make money. And now they need to send in approval to this entity, as you said, where there's a ton of other things happening. The men's tournament is happening. The women's tournament is happening. Other sports are still going on. And I asked, I was like, are you going to be able to staff up during certain times of the year for nil? Like, will Deloitte make sure this is fully staffed? And he said, the goal is to turn things around within 24 hours. To which I said, said, okay, I'll believe it when I see it. Like, the NCAA is notoriously slow. And this is not the ncaa. This is Deloitte. So let's see if they can do it better. But the reason we're at this point is because the NCAA put off paying student athletes for so long. They kicked the can down the road. They kicked the can down the road. Now with Deloitte, there's even more sort of question marks where Ross Dellinger did some great reporting, where he found some of the Nil Go. He got some of the Nil Go, like, business dealings. Basically, how is this going to happen? And literally one of the options for nil Go, saying, no, this deal is not okay. One of the options is that the student athlete can still take the deal and potentially face further eligibility issues. So it's like, don't do it. And then we're going to turn over the enforcement of this and the disciplinary action, whatever it might be, to the College Sports Commission, of which at least there is one now. So we know that it exists. But it's like anyone who doesn't think this is just going to explode into a million more lawsuits is. Is lying to themselves. Because if I want to pay you, Ben Pickman, amazing athlete at, let's say, Wisconsin, if I think you're worth a hundred thousand dollars and someone at Deloitte says no, he's not, well, let's take it to a judge. Like, that's. That is the closest point between A and B is like, let's. Let's have a lawsuit. And so, yeah, we're just going to all be getting our JDs over the next few years as we cover college sports. I feel like we've gotten our MBAs, and now we're going to get our JDs, because the number of law is not going to slow down.
- [34:29]
Zena Keda
Oh, absolutely. I think that's a perfect analogy of what we're learning. You know, Ben, I thought when you were listing all of those sports that would be submitting nil deals, like, you forgot one very key one that was on display last year. Managers, team managers can get nil deals. You saw McNeese State's Amir Khan get over $100,000 in deals, Buffalo Wild Wings, tick pics, et cetera. So it's not just athletes, it's their student managers. I mean, there's just so much here that could be under scrutiny. So this is huge. And I'm wondering, Chantel, from the conversations you had and some of the things that we saw, when is your piece going live about this, by the way?
- [35:11]
Shantelle Jennings
It'll be live on Tuesday. So as people are listening to this, they can read. I spoke with 14 power conference coaches about their thoughts on everything and the amount of money that happened in women's basketball specifically over the last two month delay of this settlement. Cause I think that's the other thing that's important here is that the settlement was supposed to come down to in April, shortly after the NCAA tournament. It got pushed back two months. So we've had this sort of like dead zone of we know legislation is coming, it's not here yet. And all the collectives basically swarmed in and were like, all right, let's front load the out of these contracts to make sure we get players on campus before they're legislated. Because they knew it was coming at some point. And so it was like, let's get these players on campus.
- [35:53]
Zena Keda
Now I think one of the craziest players parts of the story, because I'm cool, I got to read it in advance. But listening to what some of these coaches were talking about in terms of how it impacts their ability to recruit and retain players and also just like the levels of dollars, I mean, you said the highest amount that people can spend is 28.5 million on average. It's almost like a salary cap in pro teams. Right. But you're saying on average it's based on the conference as you talk to these coaches. And maybe it differs based on the conference. But what does this mean for recruiting players and retaining players? Is there a consensus for all coaches on how this impacts them? Or has it differed based on where they coach, what they coach, et cetera?
- [36:35]
Shantelle Jennings
Every school can spend up to 20.5 million. But what that looks like in practice is really different because a lot of this money, when you're thinking about revenue sharing, is coming from the college football contracts. And so. So you have conferences like the SEC and the Big Ten where college football is a huge money driver. Their TV contracts are significantly more lucrative than the Big 12 or the ACC or like the Big East. Right. And so every school can spend up to 20.5. That doesn't mean every school will spend 20.5. And so I've talked to college coaches who are saying, you know, we think we're going to get 5% of this revenue. So that's like 1.2 million. I've talked to other coaches who are saying we're probably going to get like $350,000 of the revenue share. These are coaches in the same context. Conference. It is even conference to conference. We're not talking about a level playing field. And so that's specifically the money that's coming from the revenue share. Outside of that, there will still be nil opportunities that can be approved. And so let's say you are a player. If Flage went to a different school that wasn't lsu, her powerade deals and her puma massmutual, as I'm sure some people would have already heard her add on the show, potentially those still hold. And so she, you know, even if she goes to a school that spends less, and I'm not saying she was transferring, but like in a hypothetical world, if she were at another school that were spending less on its revenue share, that doesn't impact her personal nil deals. So this is just talking about the revenue share portion, the 20.5 million.
- [37:58]
Zena Keda
Got you, got you. Okay. And I'm curious about the amount of athletes transferring because this year I believe over 1400 you mentioned in the article of athletes have actually have joined the transfer portal. What are these athletes looking for? What is the hope in going from one program to the next? Especially if you're at a program that could potentially get you a championship? What's the goal here?
- [38:25]
Shantelle Jennings
There's not going to be sort of a one size fits all, especially when we're talking about more than 1400 Division 1 athletes. I think that there are players who jumped in the portal because they knew if they went in there they could make $400,000 this year. 100%. I think it was about the money. I think there are also players who jumped in the portal because they chose a school and they're like, you know, this wasn't the right fit for me. There's actually somewhere else that I think I'd be happier. I think there are players who jumped in the portal because they're looking at playing time next season and they thought, I'm going to sit on the bench again next year. I would rather go somewhere else where I'm going to get more minutes. I don't think there is a one size fits all for, you know, the most women's college basketball players were in the Portal this year than ever before. I don't think it's all driven because of money. I think it helps. Like, I'm talking to all of these coaches, and, you know, there are coaches who are getting calls in December and January, and they're saying they're hearing from a host of people, whether it's an eybl, AAU coach, a parent, you know, whoever it may be saying, you know, if Player X were to get in the portal. Mind you, this player isn't in the portal yet. If Player X gets in the portal portal, would they have a spot on your team next year? Like, this is happening all season. You've got people making calls.
- [39:32]
Zena Keda
Wow.
- [39:33]
Shantelle Jennings
And so, like, the sausage is being made backstage, and then the portal opens during the tournament. So, like, you know, there was this big hullabaloo which, you know, happened during the. Like during the NCAA tournament, like, right after the sweet 16. Like, the portal opened. All these players are jumping in. Like, the recruitments, the. Like. Like, I basically started calling it the testing of the waters with coaches because I think everyone sort of feels like, is that even tampering anymore? Like, it's so common. We don't even know if it's tampering. Like, and I was like, I mean, I don't make the rules. I don't know. Like, is this tampering? If. And I've talked to coaches who are saying, you know, I'm not going to. You know, I get these calls and I'm just not going to engage. But I've talked to coaches, power conference coaches who said they were aware of eight to 10 players who were going to be in the portal months before that player got in the portal.
- [40:19]
Jessica Hawke
It's funny that you say all this, because I talked to a WNBA player over the weekend after the ruling, just kind of getting her reaction to it. And she mentioned, like, I'm just excited to see the documentary that gets made because in future years, because there just seems to be, like, so much mystery and formativeness and just, like, backroom dealings that are gonna come into play here. But I guess, you know, if you can say a little bit more, like, you were talking about some of the differences between football and women's basketball, say, in terms of how revenue is gonna get distributed. But I guess a macro competitive standpoint, how do you expect, if at all, this ruling to impact just who is actually going to win basketball games and win basketball championships come March and April? Like, do you expect now post ruling that, you know, a mid major that previously was not on people's radars is now going to be a perennial contender. Are we, you know, should we be worried that South Carolina and SEC football school is going to, like, allocate less money to women's basketball or lsu? Same deal. Like, are powers going to emerge who haven't? And are some of our traditional powers going to, you know, move into the background because of how all this money is allocated?
- [41:31]
Zena Keda
Good question.
- [41:31]
Shantelle Jennings
I personally think that would have happened more likely with collective staying around. Like, again, look at Texas Tech softball. That was a team that was, like, historically bad. And then you go out, you spend a ton of money on one player. You've got a national championship appearance the next year. She's going to be back next year. I bet they're going to spend a little bit more money. They might have a national championship next year. They doubled their average win total this year with, like, an influx of cash from a collective next year, you know, because she signed the deal, that's sort of beside the point. But, like, let's think two years from now, if you're only thinking about revenue share, what does that mean for schools? Well, I've spent a lot of time talking to coaches and people in the game about this because college football is going to get the bulk of the money. Most people think between 85 and 90%. I was talking to someone today that said, how long until we see a school say we're putting 100% of the money into college football? Football, because we can't even fathom the thought of $2 million not going to our college football team because that's getting allocated elsewhere. Then you think on the other side of this, you've got, I think it's something like 13 baseball programs in the country that pay their baseball coaches a million dollars or more. If you're a university that's paying your college baseball coach a million dollars, do you think that university isn't going to put money from rev share to their baseball coach team? So, okay, there's another 3 to 4%. You think about other programs where there are, like, women's gymnastics programs. I think Michigan pays their women's gymnastics coach more than $400,000 a year. Like, is Michigan not going to give their gymnastics coach money? Like, you just think about all of these different ways. You know, I was talking with one coach and I said, it's basically the best case scenario for a women's basketball program to be somewhere where they don't care about other women's sports. And they said, yeah, that's kind of the terrible part. Of this settlement is that it's like if you're at a school that also cares about volleyball, that also cares about gymnastics, that also cares about women's track, that also cares about these other women's sports, and if they're even going to get 1% of the rev share, that's not coming out of the football budget, that's not going to come out of the men's basketball budget. What budget do you think that's coming out of? Like, that is going to come out of the women's sports budget. That's what a lot of coaches are really worried about sort of happening down the road. And so how this all plays out over the next five years is going to be really interesting. And you know, we've seen high profile coaches retire on the men's side. And you know, I was talking to a coach today who said, like, you know, I don't know if I'm going to be in this job in five years. Like, I just don't know if I can do this another five years.
- [43:55]
Jessica Hawke
Are all those numbers that you mentioned in terms of the split? And again, like, I go back to the conversation I had with one of the players, they were like, free idea for an academic look at the gender discrepancy and the disparity between allocations here. Like that's a free study research project idea that someone should do. Are all these numbers going to be public though? Or is it only, you know, public universities? You can Freedom of Information act, you can request that data to be public or schools, whether it's to this new sports commission that you mentioned at the top, whether it's just some other entity yet to be named or created, like as a private institution, going to have to report anywhere that they've allocated, you know, X percent to women's basketball, X percent to softball, X percent to gymnastics and this amount of football, or is it just going to be word of mouth and whatever comes out kind of comes out if you are not a public school where we can request those documents.
- [44:46]
Shantelle Jennings
Yeah. So a little inside basketball for people. Freedom of Information act is a federal law that requires public universities that take in taxpayer money to be transparent with the public about how that money is being spent. And so as reporters, we can put in things called FOIAs where we request information about finances or other things. What's made this era really interesting in college sports is that since collectives are, are outside of the universities and these exchanges of money are happening between the collectives and the student athletes, like it never really goes through the school. And so we haven't been able to say like how much money did Paige Beckers get paid? We don't know. We don't know exactly how much money Paige Beckers got paid. We don't know how much money Flash A Johnson gets paid. When it comes to rev share, that is going to be money that is internal. So public universities, not private, public would theoretically need to be held up to the FOIA standard. Again, having sent in a lot of FOIAs for things that are far less, less touchy than money. Far less touchy than student athletes getting paid for some, I have a really hard time believing that they're going to be really transparent about this. Like I don't think we'll be able to put in a request that says like, you know, South Carolina, tell us exactly how much you paid to each player. I think there might be some law that would be like. It would end up being this like long drawn out thing is my guess. Private school is totally different thing. They can stand behind whatever they want. Like it's Mercury.
- [46:10]
Zena Keda
I'm expecting the Ivy League, the Patriot League, any of these leagues that already were not really a part of the nil conversation. I imagine that's going to continue on in students choosing maybe not to go to those schools because maybe the academic pedigree of it isn't enough in comparison to the opportunity to make $400,000 playing basketball. One of my favorite lines out of Chantel's story is about a coach saying post player, the average is 2 1/2 half points a game is asking for $200,000 and it's like what? You're not even producing. So this is going to be very.
- [46:45]
Shantelle Jennings
It's not just you. I had the exact same response the first time I was talking to a coach because again these, these contracts have ballooned because of. So have they been front loaded. And the first conversation I remember I was talking to a coach and the first time they said to me, they said, you know, I've got freshmen who are telling me that they're worth $300,000 in a couple car. And they keep talking a little bit and I go hold up, can we go back to that car part? I was like, are you speaking in hyperbole right now or is that an actual example? And they said that's an actual example. I was like, huh, noted.
- [47:18]
Zena Keda
Wow.
- [47:20]
Shantelle Jennings
And it's like there are coaches out there like. And again, I think the players should be paid a hundred percent.
- [47:28]
Zena Keda
Absolutely.
- [47:28]
Shantelle Jennings
But sort of to your point, because post players were at a premium in the portal this season. You've got players who are averaging 2.5 points a game that are getting 200. And I think another wrinkle to this again with the money coming quote unquote in house. There's a good pun because it's called the settlement with the money coming in house because of the universities, a lot of the coaches I've talked to, you know, sort of the line they go to now is I've got a buyout. Like I do get paid and I get paid well, but I have a buyout. If I leave before my contract is up, are we going to write in buyouts to these contracts for the players? No one exactly knows how these contracts are going to be written.
- [48:03]
Jessica Hawke
So.
- [48:03]
Shantelle Jennings
So the question then is, you know, if it's a two year deal with a university, does an athlete suddenly have a buyout that needs to be paid if they're going to transfer? I don't know.
- [48:12]
Zena Keda
We'll have to see what a change. Back in my day, if you transferred, it's because you had an attitude problem. You were looking for playing time. You know, something went wrong in your college. Nowadays it's let me go get a bag, let me go get paid.
- [48:26]
Shantelle Jennings
All right.
- [48:27]
Zena Keda
There's obviously way more to debunk about all of this. Even with the settlement being official, we will continue to be on top of it, of course. Thank you, Chantel for giving us all of that insight. And as much as you know right now, coming up, we got our interview with the one and only Sue Bird. Don't go anywhere.
- [48:50]
Ben Pickman
When pro defensive end Cam Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawke to learn how AI can help.
- [48:59]
Zena Keda
Help. As a football player, we're really focused on the X's and nos. It's fun because it's a strategy game as well and I think that transitions well into the business world. There's so much data underlying every single thing that you're doing in your business.
- [49:10]
Sue Bird
And having a way to unify all that data. This is like electricity.
- [49:14]
Shantelle Jennings
This is a major platform shift and.
- [49:16]
Zena Keda
I think we're all learning together.
- [49:17]
Ben Pickman
Ready to raise your AI game? Find your winning edge at Microsoft.com challengers. As you've probably heard by now, we've teamed up with BetMGM. This season we'll be using BETMGM lines to make all of our picks and we'll have special offers for our listeners each week. If you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet. Use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager with BetMGM. Here's how it works. Download the BetMGM app and sign up using bonus code TheAthlet. Athletic make your first deposit of at least ten dollars. Place your first bet on any game and claim your voucher for a one year subscription to the Athletic. See betmgm.com for terms. U.S. promotional offers not available in D.C. mississippi, New York, Nevada, Ontario or Puerto Rico. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler available in the U.S. call 877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY 467-369 In New York, call 1-800- NEXT STEP in Arizona, 1-800-327-5050. Massachusetts 1-800-bets off in Iowa, 1-800-270-7117 for confidential help in Michigan, 1-800-981-0023 In Puerto Rico, first bet offer for new customers only in partnership with Kansas Crossing Casino and Hotel. Don't forget, if you haven't signed up for BetMGM yet, use bonus code TheAthletic and you'll get a one year subscription to the Athletic plus up to a fifteen hundred dollar first bet offer on your first wager.
- [50:39]
Sue Bird
Hi, it's Paige from Giggly Squad.
- [50:41]
Zena Keda
Let's be real. Cat dads are in their golden era. Temptations, America's number one cat treat brand, is celebrating how seriously irresistible these guys are. They've got sensitivity, snack timing, precision, and.
- [50:52]
Sue Bird
Their cats adore them. Add in a handful of Temptations treats and boom, you've got a certified cat dad show.
- [50:59]
Zena Keda
More love to the cat dad in.
- [51:01]
Sue Bird
Your life with Temptations Cat Treats and.
- [51:03]
Zena Keda
Tag your fave moments with catdadsighting. You know we're dying to see them. Welcome back to no off season. It is June, which means it's Pride Month, and we are continuing our series of interviews with some of the fears fiercest out and proud figures in women's basketball. And we are so excited to be joined by the one and only Sue Bird. Thank you so much for being here, Sue.
- [51:31]
Sue Bird
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [51:32]
Zena Keda
Of course. Now I know our listeners know who you are, but just in case you're considered one of the greatest players in WNBA history, you were drafted number one by the Seattle Storm back in 2002 and you played your entire career there, bringing you to four WNBA championships. Oh my gosh. Okay. Five time gold medals as well. I'm sure There is a shelf somewhere, maybe a bookcase, maybe a room filled with all of your accolades, just like hanging on walls and such. Overall, also went to UConn, got some championships there, racked up, too, and then officially retired in 2022. But let's just be real. You haven't really fully stepped away from the game. You are still very involved in your retirement, and one of the biggest things that you've been doing since, of course, we're very excited about it. Podcasting. You've inserted your voice in a new way into the world of women's basketball. A touch more, which you host with your partner, Megan Rapinoe, which we adore. I was at the Valkyries Practice center, the Sephora performance Practice center show, during NBA All Star Weekend, and y' all showed out. It was hilarious. It was good. It was awesome. And then most recently, Bird's Eye View, which is more of a solo venture in which you're talking about women's hoops. And I've been talking a lot. So I'm now gonna ask you a question, which is, when you think about the media landscape right now, we know there's been a boom. There are a lot of people that are trying to get into this conversation, that are inserting themselves into this conversation, which is great. We want to grow this space and the way that it's being talked about when it comes to women's culture, hoops. But I wanted to ask you, you're a former player, you know what it was like when it was scratching to get people at your practices or at your games, and now everyone wants to get in there. What do you see in the media landscape right now when it comes to women's basketball?
- [53:21]
Sue Bird
I mean, obviously a ton of growth, which is. Which is, like you said, something we always wanted. You know, it wasn't that we didn't have any coverage. It was just we didn't have enough. And now that that's starting to enter the picture, I always kind of call it where I've landed on this is I refer to it as like an ecosystem. And I think what happened is, as the WNBA kind of kaboomed in the last year or two, this ecosystem grew and more people were coming into it, but we didn't have a balance. We didn't have enough people who really understood the league, knew the league, knew its history, knew why certain things would happen, why certain things wouldn't, and had a true understanding. And I think that's where I come into play. Not just myself, other former players who were doing it people like yourselves who have been in women's basketball, it's important to back balance that ecosystem and to have an understanding because with all the new and like the influx of the people who are new to women's basketball, they were getting some of the narratives wrong. Some of them were just off. And then it kind of took on a life of its own at times. And again, I'm going to be repetitive with it, but there wasn't something to counteract it. There wasn't a balance to it. And I think the more that starts to increase, those of us who really know the game start to get, you know, larger platforms, it can, you know, it can all exist. Because you know what? Sadly, in our world today, you do need the hot take, you do need the wrong take. You need to have these conversations to really get to the bottom of things. But what was missing was some of the accuracy.
- [54:48]
Zena Keda
There you go. And I imagine that that's what you want to bring with a Bird's Eye View, like first and foremost, anyone that can get Jackie Young to talk for over an hour. Applause applaud I've been enjoying this content, but particularly the accuracy of allowing players to tell their stories themselves and be able to provide that perspective them. Is that, you know, the impetus of why you launch your podcast, to be able to give that lane. Is that one of the things that you remember missing as a player or even hearing in the ecosystem from players to say, man, I really wish I could talk to a former player as opposed to a media member, because let's be real, I've interviewed Kate Martin. She was way more open with you than she was with me. But understandably, because you know, what she's going through as a former pro, as a former, you know, big time collegiate player, that is a different vibe. Is that one of the things that Bird's Eye View wants to address?
- [55:43]
Sue Bird
Yeah, partly. I think some of it was just actually a lot of what I said about ecosystem was more so, you know, pertinent to A Touch More. That's kind of how A Touch More got started. And then as we were doing that show, we talk about all different sports across the board, but obviously wnba, women's basketball is something we tap into. And I just found that I wanted to go deeper, I wanted to talk about more. And then really what I'm finding now that I'm actually doing it is what you're saying. I really love having these conversations with players. You know, I do think there's an element of being a former player. I'm able to disarm in a different way. But I also know these players know I'm not trying to do any gotcha moments. I'm not trying to catch him in anything. I'm just trying to have, like, a real conversation. And I do think it gives them a chance to really talk about things and to have somebody who can connect, can relate, and hopefully leave space for them to tell their side. So I've really been enjoying it. I'm having a lot of fun with it. I have a couple of minutes on each side of the interview where I get to just, you know, talk about the specific basketball things I want to talk about. Sometimes it's players, teams, themes, whatever it is, but for the most part, it's really letting these players just kind of have. Have that space.
- [56:48]
Zena Keda
I'm happy you talked about the gotcha moments, because I feel like that is something. Ben, we talked to Candice Parker a little bit, right. About the gentle commentating. I'll let you follow up on this one, because I also have this question.
- [56:59]
Jessica Hawke
Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, Candace talked about sometimes needing to take the white gloves off and the importance of that in the ecosystem. I guess. What are your thoughts on how media can do things differently or about the idea of being fair but critical when the situation warrants it?
- [57:13]
Sue Bird
Yeah, I think fair but critical is a great way of saying it. It's something that Candace and I really, all of us have talked about for a long time, how there wasn't a lot of critique. I mean, in fairness to everyone who's been around for, you know, 20 plus years, it felt too risky to critique at times because it was so easy for so long to jump on that critique and then paint it as if it was whole league. Right. If you said one bad thing about one thing, that was it. The whole league had no value. And so it felt risky. But I do think we're now getting into this place where you can have both. I think the important part is fair. Fair but critical. You have to have both. Kind of have to exist, and like I said, no gotcha moments. But, yeah, real conversations. And in real conversations comes, you know, shooting slumps, comes, you know, a game or a play. You look back, you wish you did something different. Maybe a relationship with a teammate, you wish you handled different. And those are just real conversations. Conversations.
- [58:07]
Jessica Hawke
You mentioned some of your conversations with players. I guess I'm curious about your conversations with ownership. We also know that you have an ownership stake in the Seattle Storm, and obviously there's an ongoing CBA Negotiation. Just what have you learned on being, you know, part of that side of the business? Have you talked to Ginny and you know, Brum, the other members of the Storm ownership group about the ongoing negotiation? Just what do you bring to the mix in terms of those talks?
- [58:30]
Sue Bird
Yeah, I mean, of course I stay in touch with them. What I'm bringing is what I knew I was going to be to able to bring the minute I became an owner. Gosh, almost, I guess around a year ago now. A year and some change, which is just I'm in the owner, I'm on the owner side of things. But I have a player's perspective and that's unique. And so I'm able to at times, you know, learn from the ownership group because I don't know that side as well, and then also provide a little bit of understanding or nuance on what a player might be thinking in certain situations or in certain moments. So I think it's just a really good balance. Balance. At the end of the day, I actually don't feel that much different being on this side as opposed to the player side, which is to say we just want a great deal. We just want a great deal. We want this league to succeed, period, point blank.
- [59:16]
Jessica Hawke
You know, in your list of accolades, I guess Xena forgot or did not mention your assist totals. And that is obviously something. We've seen some great passers, Courtney Vanders, who would obviously tarry in her acl, unfortunately this past weekend. One of the all time great passers too. Caitlin Clark, though the fever is very much on pace. It seems like su to. To chase down your record one day.
- [59:35]
Sue Bird
And these records have no, these records have no chance. They play way more games.
- [59:40]
Jessica Hawke
They're all going to fall.
- [59:41]
Zena Keda
Do the math.
- [59:42]
Sue Bird
I played. I played. I mean this is where, you know, I don't want to get too caught up in the games played because it is what it is what it is. I don't feel away about it. Records are, are, are, you know, meant to be broken. I think I played like 34 games majority of my career. So if these don't records don't get, they're on the clock. They better break those things in like.
- [59:57]
Jessica Hawke
Five years and they probably will. But I guess for her, like what makes her so special as a pastor in your mind, what separates her as a pastor compared to her peers?
- [60:05]
Sue Bird
I think Caitlin. Okay, listen, in order to be in this conversation, right, like you're not even bringing her name up unless she has incredible court vision, unless she has like the type of vision where she's able to anticipate and read what I would add to that and what I think separates her right on top of, again, all the qualities that most great pastors have have is she has strength. Sometimes she's able to make passes not because she sees it, not because she's reading the defense. Yes, those things exist, but that's not why she's able to make the pass. She's able to make the pass because she can actually get it there, you know, So I think the. Yeah, the easiest way to see it is, is her full court passes, but they happen in the half court, too. Sometimes she'll be, you know, she'll have picked her dribble up, somebody will make a cut, and she still has the zip to get like a bounce back, you know, a backdoor pass off the bounce to her teammate on time. So I would just add that strength as like maybe a differentiator to maybe some of the other great passers we've seen.
- [61:01]
Zena Keda
And speaking of great passers, great players, one of the reasons you're here, you're launching a collectibles collection with ebay soon called Sue Birds Dream Draft, which I know we've seen and heard about some of the players within that collection. But this is going to be your Dream Rock roster of rookie cards, signed gear, historic artifacts from WNBA past and present, and fans are going to have the opportunity to bid on that. My favorite thing is, is that some of the Items are priced at 97 in honor of the first year of the WNBA 1997. As you look through the players you chose, the type of items you chose, because there is a range here of how the WNBA is represented. Why did you choose the items that you chose? And then if there was one you could keep for yourself itself, which would it be?
- [61:48]
Sue Bird
Great question. Well, first of all, you mentioned the 97 cents. So all the items start at 97 cents as an odd. So when the auction gets going June 10, you'll have a week to bid. They all start 97 cents, which is just like a nice little. A nice little, like I said, nod. Yeah, it wasn't easy, like picking because I had to like, you know, get down to a number. But at the same time, it was so much fun to kind of sift through everything. So much fun to be able to honor, like quite literally the past, the present, the future. Some of my favorites are the ones that are connected to moments like the LA Sparks ticket that you can get, which is Lisa let's When Lisa first dunked. So the first Dunk in WNBA history. So that was kind of a no brainer. I know. Ask ebay. Ask ebay. That's why they're the best, right? That's why they're the best.
- [62:36]
Zena Keda
Awesome.
- [62:38]
Sue Bird
So. So something like that. I think Diana's like funk pop thing, doll, whatever. Funko pop. That was unique. So I thought that was fun. But honestly, if I'm gonna pick one that I get to keep, I'm keeping that Stewie Seattle jersey. That thing is like, it's immediately vintage, it's immediately rare. It's immediately like, we'll never. You know, she's gonna have a thousand more Liberty jerseys. This is it. The Storm jerseys are gonna run out at some point. So this makes it a little bit of a grail. It's like a grail. So I'm going with Stewie. Stewie Seattle jersey.
- [63:10]
Zena Keda
Oh, I like it. That's real. I think for me, the LA Sparks Ticket 1 was the easiest one that threw out that like, grabbed my attention. Cause I'm like, first and foremost, those things don't exist anymore. Like, I just recently went to the Kendrick Lamar SZA concert and they like Gaylist. Yeah, you saw, right? It's like on my phone. And when we walked in, they try to give us like these little placards that are supposed to be commemorative, but it's like, meh. It's not the same as being able to see a ticket from a moment like that that, you know, no one else has or. So this is really, really awesome that you're launching this. So go check it out today, Sue. Birds Dream Draft. Lots of cool items. Now before we go, we got some more questions. Ben. I know we gotta wrap it up.
- [63:50]
Jessica Hawke
Yeah, some rapid fire. Just two quickies. You mentioned playing with Stewie with that jersey. Here's another teammate, Diana Taurassi. She was on our show a few weeks ago and she mentioned that she thinks one day Paige Beckers will be the best player in the wnba. Sue. What says you?
- [64:05]
Sue Bird
What was the question? How did she even get to that? Did you specifically ask it?
- [64:08]
Jessica Hawke
No, she was reflecting on Paige's. And you know Diana. Diana's got a lot of takes. So as you well know.
- [64:14]
Sue Bird
Yeah, I certainly think Paige has the skill set to be one of the top players. For sure. I mean, best in what year does it even matter? Everyone's going to have their preference. But I think what Paige. I think the thing that separates Paige is her efficiency. You saw it in college and you're seeing it now in the wnba. It's like Something that's maintained so you know it's real no matter who the competition is. And this is the kind of league when you're efficient and you're on a team where you're going to get looks, it's going to take you a long way. So, yeah, I've been enjoying watching Paige play. It was a bummer. She. She had her concussion. I was in Seattle when they played the Wings, so I was bummed I couldn't see her play. But yeah, I guess I'll let D live on that limb by herself for now.
- [64:49]
Jessica Hawke
There you go.
- [64:50]
Zena Keda
I gotta end it on a positive note. We heard on a Touch more you talking about the post from. I believe it was fruit slice when it comes to WNBA's gayest teams. We appreciated that conversation.
- [65:02]
Sue Bird
Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [65:03]
Zena Keda
Interestingly enough, we also noticed you guys did not pick who you think is the gayest team in the wnba. It is Pride Month. Happy Pride. Thoughts before you head out, Sue?
- [65:15]
Sue Bird
The gayest team. I don't even remember what the criteria was on that post.
- [65:20]
Zena Keda
All I know is that Jonquil Jones made a significant case for her team in the comments.
- [65:24]
Sue Bird
She did. I think she has a good point. I think she's a good point. It could be the New York Liberty. They own it. That's what I like about the players on that team. Stewie, JJ So yeah, we'll go with them. Honestly, who cares, right?
- [65:37]
Zena Keda
It was fun. We all enjoyed it as fans. It was fun. Sue, thank you so much for joining us. That was a lot of fun.
- [65:43]
Sue Bird
Thanks. See you guys.
- [65:44]
Zena Keda
All right, remember, everybody listening Sue Birds. A Bird's Eye View podcast drops on Friday and then the Sue Bird Dream Draft drops today. Go to eBay.com to check out all those cool items. Okay, that is all we've got for you today. And I know it was a lot, but it was all good. And so we wanna make sure you come back here. Meet us on Friday. We got some more deep conversations around coaches in the WNBA who is crushing it this season, who's not. I think that conversation will be very full. Plus, our Pride Month interview series continues with a very special someone. We've been doing pretty well this month. I think that you wanna come back to check in on that one and you don't wanna miss this. And before we go, quick reminder. Subscribe, go press that button wherever you're listening. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, leave us a comment, write us an email. We wan hear from you, social media, whatever it is that's easiest for you. We want to answer your questions. I know y' all probably have a ton of questions, especially after that house settlement conversation. And of course, head on over to our partner Yahoo Sports Hub for more content. Sports.yahoo.com womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic, I'm Zena Kada. Appreciate you guys listening and we will see you next time. No off season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of Women's Basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations. How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support available@AmazonBusiness.com Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Let's talk about an elite green flag being a cat dad. Temptations, America's number one cat treat brand.
- [68:10]
Sue Bird
Is making 2025 the year of the Cat dad.
- [68:13]
Zena Keda
And honestly, about time. Whether he's coordinating snack time with the Meow Scout schedule or just vibing with.
- [68:19]
Sue Bird
His tabby, Temptation treats make cat dads even more irresistible to their cats and to us. For more information about Temptations Brand Cat Dads or to learn more about the.
- [68:30]
Zena Keda
Brand, visit temptationtreats.com and don't forget to share your own catdad sightings on social we'll be scrolling.
- [68:38]
Shantelle Jennings
You know that feeling when a girl who gets it gives you a genuine compliment? Suddenly you're strutting through the the streets, sending motivational voice notes to the group chat, manifesting a new man. That's the Tresemme Lamellar Gloss effect, babe. It's an unstoppable kind of confidence reserved only for the real girls. Girls. And now we've bottled it. We're talking shampoo, conditioner, leave in cream, shine spray and a finishing oil that's seriously too glossy to gatekeep 72 hours of salon level shine. That's gloss that gives girl and it's available every everywhere. So go out there, get glossy and give gloss with Tresemme's new Lamellar Gloss collection.