← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:00]
Ben
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- [01:39]
Sabrina
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- [03:41]
Zena Kada
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- [04:01]
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- [04:02]
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- [05:14]
Sabrina
For.
- [05:15]
Zena Kada
The Athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's hoops. Whether you are a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the game or just a casual fan looking to, I don't know, mess with your mental health in the midst of the craziness of March Madness. Make sure to subscribe to this pod wherever you get your pods to stay up to date with us as well as subscribe to the Athletic because you do not want to miss out on the year round in depth coverage of the game you love and everyone in it. Guys, rounds one and two of the NCAA tournament are complete and I probably need to set up a meeting with my doctor because my blood pressure has been through the roof on several occasions. It's funny, you'll look at the bracket and you're saying, well, Zena, the teams that you expect to win are, you know, winning. There's only been four upsets in terms of a lower seed beating a higher seed. But those scores and the actual outcomes of the games tell a very different story. It hasn't been smooth sailing for these top seeds, maybe outside of South Carolina, but there's been several games that were decided within 10 or 11 points or less, including seven that were within a four point deficit. So it's been nail biting contests where teams are clearly doing everything they can to not go home. And it's been a lot of fun to watch. But again, I've lost voices, I've raised my blood pressure, I have jumped up and down. It's been too much fun. I'm joined today by athletic women's basketball writers Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. I unfortunately can't be on the road covering all these games, but of course they are. So I want to make sure that they give you their perspective on some of the things we want to talk about today or what we call the scout number one. We gotta give some postmortems. We gotta say goodbye to the teams that fought hard to get here, that fought hard while they were here. And unfortunately we'll be going home. That includes some big seeds, that includes some big time players that are gonna go to the league very soon. And of course that includes my prediction of Ohio State. I'm very curious to see what Sabrina and Ben have to say about that. And then there's some freshmen that are going big in this tournament just to make sure that they're not going home. We're going to talk about some of the performances that have stood out to us and then talk about the Sweet 16 predictions. I'll let Sabrina and Ben kind of lay out the land for us and then make their predictions. And I'll I'll chime in with mine at the end. All right, guys, I'll toss it to you. Sabrina and Ben, take it away.
- [08:15]
Ben
Thanks, Ena. Let's get right into that round of 32. It wasn't very upset filled, but I think there were a lot of really, really compelling games that caught our attention on Sunday and Monday. So, Ben, just first things first. Among the teams that headed out early, you know, the ones that lost on their home court, which one do you stands out as one that's going to have a lot of questions coming up this offseason.
- [08:38]
Sabrina
I mean, I think the biggest surprise and the team whose run shocked me the most was Kansas State, and I was really high on them. When the bracket was released, Mark Schindler came on this podcast. He predicted that they would go to the Final Four. We had seen them have a lot of success against Iowa in the past, and so I thought, you know, maybe I look too far ahead in looking at a potential Sweet 16 game between Kansas State and Iowa. But the way Colorado's defense really stifled Kansas State in the second half, I think Kansas State scored just 15 points in the second half, 50 overall, and really disrupted everything that Kansas State wants to do. Like, this is not a team, Kansas State, that necessarily likes to get out and push and transition, but they had just two fast break points. It's not a team that leans that that much on their bench. They average 20 points per game in the regular season, but the bench scored just six points. It's not a team that gets out and scores a lot off turnovers, but they only scored nine points off turners. Like, every single metric, every single category basically had this, like, subtle regression. Then there was a yokely in the middle, and, you know, she was looked to me as this big X factor, as this, you know, center who could really break up this whole region because of how she could potentially impact the players on Iowa and their front court. And Colorado's bigs of Aaron and Von Lay and Quay Miller just really handled her and did a really, really good job. And so that, to me, was one of the most surprising results. And now, you know, who knows what happens with Lee? Kansas State has been a really good program in the past, but you lose potentially a focal point like that. There's obviously a question there. So that, to me, was maybe the most surprising upset of the whole draw. What about you, Sabrina?
- [10:12]
Ben
Well, at the risk of sounding like a homer, I'm going to say the most surprising upset was Duke taking down Ohio State in Columbus. I mean, you go from one team, Colorado, that beat Duke on its home court last season, and then Duke getting to pull the same feet on the Buckeyes with former Duke teammate Celeste Taylor playing for Ohio State this season. If I had a nickel for every time the announcer said former Duke 2 mates, Celeste Taylor would have been a very productive day. But we don't need to get into that. I just thought it was really impressive how well Duke held down. J.C. sheldon, you know, we've been talking a lot about J.C. with the WNBA draft coming up, and obviously she's a fifth year senior and will be a factor in the first round of the draft. But just to see how Duke's defense completely took her out of the second half, I think she only had two shot attempts before the final little flurry when Duke basically already had the game wrapped up in the final minute. And then for Cody McMahon, regardless of how excellent she was, just to be unable to be the singular offensive force for Ohio State because you had Reagan Richardson for Duke, you had Ashland Jackson, you had a little bit of Tynemere. It was odd to see like this Duke team, where they had maybe four returners from last season, be more balanced than an Ohio State team that brought back everybody but Taylor Mikesell from last year's Elite eight team. So I just thought that that defensive performance was so impressive and kind of out of nowhere because like you think of a team that's going to design like a destructive defensive game plan, and that's Ohio State with its pressure against a younger Duke team. And I thought after the first quarter, you know, Duke falls behind by as much as 16. I believe in the second quarter they were the ones who were more composed. They were the ones who looked like they had the energy of the crowd behind them. And you know, that's our lowest seed heading into the sweet 16 is that number 7 Duke in Portland 3.
- [11:54]
Sabrina
I guess I'd be curious for your perspective. Like Ohio State was a team we had talked about on this podcast and you know, via text and on the phone before as like we were not so, so high on their chances of making the Final Four, I guess. Like what, when you watch their loss to Duke, what did you feel validated by or you know, what I think in your mind, like, what struck up or came up in the lead up to the tournament that then gave you some pause that you saw reveal itself against Duke in the round of 32?
- [12:21]
Ben
I think with the Buckeyes, it's, they kind of just have one speed, like on offense. It's, we're going to have Cody McMahon, you know, full bowling ball into the lane, and we're going to use our pressure to create turnovers, and you're going to make mistakes and we're going to capitalize. And it's just going to be this feedback loop of you not being able to do anything on offense and then us being able to set our press. But once teams sort of figure out how to break through the pressure, it kind of feels like the Buckeyes just don't have a way to adjust. Like, I think about their big games against USC and ucla and, you know, usc, they only ever made runs when juju Watkins wasn't on the court. And like, congratulations. Beating USC without juju Watkins is, like, not super impressive to me. But, you know, even their games against Iowa, like, it always requires like, one big run for them to get going. Like, they never just sort of chip away at things. And so it depends when that big run is gonna happen. Like, for the Duke game, it happened at the very beginning, and that allowed the Blue Devils a lot of time to get back into it for that Iowa game that they won in overtime. Like, their big run happened in the fourth quarter. So I would didn't really have a chance to get back into it. It's just so dependent on at what moment the press is going to kick in. And when the press isn't working, it's just hard to figure out, like, what Ohio State is going to do to create consistent stops. And they just couldn't do that against, you know, a Duke team where Reagan Richardson was hitting every jumper known to mankind.
- [13:36]
Sabrina
It's funny you say that, because I think I felt that a little bit watching them even play Maine, like, Maine hung in there for the first quarter, the first start of the second quarter, and it wasn't really until that second quarter that Ohio State outscored them 21 to 8 and really blew the game open. But, you know, even for the remainder of the game now at that point, Ohio State had built a big lead, but Maine only was outscored in the third quarter by two points, and they were only outscored in the fourth quarter by two points. Like, they didn't pull away or really blow the game open in the way that I thought they would. I believe that the 23 point margin that Ohio State had in beating Maine in the first round was actually the tightest between the ones and twos in the first round. And so that even gave me a little bit of pause heading into the Duke game. And then obviously we saw what happened.
- [14:18]
Ben
Yeah. So let's talk real quick just about one of the other teams to lose on their home court this weekend, and that was Virginia Tech, which has a few more question marks heading into this offseason after losing to Baylor. I don't want to spend too much time on the game itself just because a team that doesn't have Elizabeth Kitley is not the Virginia Tech team that we saw for the majority of this regular season. Just a quick nod to Clara Strack, who, you know, Georgia Amore. And Elizabeth Kitley came onto this podcast and said she is the future of Virginia Tech basketball. And I don't think they meant for those words to be taken literally so soon, but perfect shooting night in the opening round game against Marshall just tremendously effective against the smaller Baylor team too. I look at that game and I just never thought, oh, this is a freshman who hasn't played much during this season. She looked incredible. I am very excited to see what she looks like in a Hokie uniform going forward. But will everyone on this team be in a Hokie uniform going forward? Ben, can we go through the big news of the day first?
- [15:13]
Sabrina
Yeah, I mean, the big news of the day, and this was first published by Virginia Tech, they got out in front of this is that their head coach, Kenny Brooks is leaving the university to take the head coach job at the University of Kentucky. And you know, Kenny Brooks has obviously had a ton, a ton of success with Virginia Tech as recently as the 2022, 2023 season, leading them to their first ever Final Four. I mean, Kenny Brooks had been there since 2016. He really changed the culture in that school, led them to their first ACC title, the Final Four, as I mentioned, their first ACC regular season championship. He won more than 180 games at that school, including a school record in that year a season ago. And so obviously there is a question about what they do at coach. There's also a roster question that is a looming one. Right? Georgia Amore is one of these players who could potentially go back to school if she so chooses because of the NCAA covet eligibility rule. And she's now, I think, faced with a really interesting question. I think Sabrina and I both, and we'll have this story on the site this week, have talked to a number of GMs as released to the WNBA draft. And Georgia Amore is one of these prospects who I think a lot of GM see as maybe at worst a high level backup point guard, someone who, you know, obviously can score the basketball and, you know, played really, really well throughout her college career. She's someone who I think could probably be a top 10 pick if she elects to go to the WNBA in early April. Now there's a big question of does she turn pro, does she follow Kenny Brooks to Kentucky, does she stay at Virginia Tech? I mean, that is, you know, in addition to who will the coach of Virginia Tech be going forward? That, I think is the next biggest question with Virginia Tech because losing Amor, losing Kitley and losing Brooks is a really big trio, especially in this time in college basketball when who knows who else from that Virginia Tech roster decides to go and join the Wildcats with Kenny.
- [16:59]
Ben
Yeah, I mean, you mentioned that trio. We haven't even brought up Kayla King, who came in to Blacksburg with Elizabeth Kitley in that same recruiting class. And she has started 121 games for Virginia Tech over the last five years. So as much of a cornerstone of that program as anybody else. And she obviously has exhausted all of her eligibility and won't be returning to Virginia Tech next season. But just can be really strange not to see Kenny on that sideline. Like he's, he's a Virginia guy, right? Like he came from James Madison to Virginia Tech. He's been in that area for so long, he recruits that area. And just another conference sort of realignment story for us where the SEC is putting all that money into women's basketball. I believe that, you know, the salary that he had at Virginia Tech would have made him the seventh highest paid coach in the sec, but Kentucky gave him a raise to the point where he is only behind Kim Mulkey and Don Staley, which if you look at the list of coaches in the sec, that makes sense. Like this is a guy who just won two ACC titles and it was in the Final Four a year ago and completely overhauled a program at Virginia Tech. So congrats to Kenny, congrats to Sean Poppy, who already got a job at Clemson, a former Virginia Tech assistant, and I think would have been on the shortlist to replace Kenny Brooks in Virginia Tech had that decision already not been made at Clemson. That's going to be an interesting little ACC rivalry there shaping up. But just one real quick hat tip to our friend David Cunningham at Tech Sideline, who said ESPN has a chance to do something very funny in the ACC SEC Challenge next year and have Virginia Tech play Kentucky. So we'll see if that comes to fruition. But yeah, just a ton, a ton of questions for the Hokies, which is crazy because, you know, before Liz Kitley goes down against Virginia I'm sure we thought we were going to be talking about them in a purely basketball context for the next two weeks. Like, who would have ever thought that the Hokies would lose at home in the tournament? But here we are.
- [18:39]
Sabrina
Here we are. Kenny Brooks, for the first time in his career, leaving the state of Virginia.
- [18:43]
Ben
All right, so it would not be an appropriate discussion of the NCAA tournament if we didn't get into the play of the freshman. Now, we've already talked about Clara Strack, but I don't want to bury the lead. Like, there were a lot of really, really great performances from freshmen over the course of these first two rounds. Ben, why don't you start us off? Who is the, the main first year player who stood out to you? If there was even one who really stood out?
- [19:05]
Sabrina
I mean, I think we've made it very clear where we're going to go with this. If you've listened to this show, recent episodes, past episodes, since we started this podcast, it's Audi Crooks of Iowa State. Right. I think that is. She was the headliner or one of the headliners from the weekend, obviously, her 40 point performance in their opening game against Maryland, the unbelievable comeback that came along with it. It wasn't just like she scored 40 points and they won by 30 and it was like a nothing game. Like, they really had to work for it. And it was an incredible game. And then obviously Stanford, Iowa State was probably the game of the tournament so far. Right. Going into overtime, just some unbelievable playmaking. You know, she obviously struggled in that game. Kiki Areafen and Camp Brink did a really good job. I think she finished with what, 10 points before fouling out and was very inefficient right in the first, the first game. I think she missed just two shots overall, and I think she made what she missed, 15, 18 shots, 3 of.
- [20:01]
Ben
21 in the second.
- [20:02]
Sabrina
3 of 21. So literally night and day from what she did in the first game to the second game. But she was, I think, the story of the first weekend of games, like, really putting herself, introducing herself to national audiences both for what she said post game as well, when asked by the Washington Post about, you know, taking a moment to reflect. And we should acknowledge that, too. I mean, Sabrina, we can't say enough about her in Iowa State. And I think you're on the same wavelength as me on this run.
- [20:31]
Ben
Yeah, I mean, it would have been so fun to see this Iowa State run keep going. I think every tournament you. You get these little darlings who most people haven't been talking about all season and then just completely dominate the national conversation. And maybe it wasn't a true Cinderella on the women's side as it is on the men's side side, but I mean, I couldn't go anywhere with people talking about Audie Crooks. Like everyone was just so enamored with that performance that she put up against Maryland and how vulnerable and open she was about, you know, dealing with the loss of her father when she was in high school and how praying, you know, and essentially talking to her father pre game, like sort of helps her center before games start. It was just a really lovely perspective. And I mean, 40 points in a national televised game, you know, it's the highest point total for any freshman in ncibley tournament history. I'm eagerly awaiting, you know, Juju Watkins or Hannah Hidalgo Madison Booker to try to top that over the next two weeks, but so far she's the standard. And you know, to go from that to like what Stanford had to reorient its entire game plan around Adi in that second game and we saw Iowa State come oh, so close to upsetting them and you needed like a heroic 41 point performance from Kiki Yuriafan just to edge out a seven seat at home. Not enough good can be said about Adi Crooks in the job that Iowa State did this year and they have that freshman class of five players who will all be coming back next season in theory, Emily Ryan coming back next season. It's going to be very different going from, hey, we're just a bunch of young kids with Emily trying to win some games to, oh no, Texas and Oklahoma left the Big 12. Now maybe we're the favorites to win the conference. There's actually some pressure. I don't think it's going to be the exact same alchemy over there in Ames, but definitely a story worth keeping an eye on going forward.
- [22:06]
Sabrina
I mean, that's Crooks. And I think we've obviously, we've just covered her again at length. At some length, I guess. Of the freshmen who are still remaining in the field, who do you think has the chance to, you know, be the most disruptive, be the most impactful and just shape what happens in this tournament from here on out?
- [22:22]
Ben
Yeah, well, let's stick with the Big 12. I think Madison Booker was absolutely fantastic in that game against Alabama in the second round. I mean, does she ever sit like. I feel like Madison Booker every time I look at a box score, it's a close game. That's 40 minutes. You know, 21 points for Booker flashing that pull up regularly. It was so fun to see, you know, fellow number 35 for Texas, Kevin Durant, sitting in the stands watching the new number 35, Madison Booker. And Booker just showing everything in her bag, like the celebrations. I know we've talked about this with Chantelle Jennings offline quite a bit, just like every freshman in this class seems to be so animated more than usual. And Madison Booker is definitely atop the list. Just how she flexes whenever something good happens is one of my favorite things about watching Texas games. But she's just a load to handle. Like, I haven't seen a team figure out how to orient their defense so that they're putting a big enough player on Madison without compromising everything else behind them. You know, I don't really think Gonzaga is the team to do that, so we might have to wait until the Elite Eight to make that happen. But it's crazy to think that this is a position that she's been playing for three months and she's playing it better than just about anybody else in the country. And she's a freshman, and she's still scoring the ball at a rate that would, like, make most other players in the country blush. What a really, really special player that they have in Madison. And, I mean, I could just watch her shoot, pull up jumpers for days.
- [23:36]
Sabrina
It's funny that you say that, because I had, like, a similar moment of reflection, I think, watching her and watching some of the other freshmen last night, you know, on Monday night, as we taped this on Tuesday afternoon, like, wow, this is the 2024 WNB Draft upcoming, and there's a chance that these players, I mean, as the rules currently are constituted, they won't be playing in the WNBA until 2027. And just, like, how far away that feels and, like, what are their games going to be like at that time? Like, you go down this list of these players and how they're able to impact games, you know, on both ends of the floor, not just on offense, but, like, the defensive impact they're going to make. And, you know, I'll talk about Hannah Hidalgo in a second, because I think she was a player who really stuck out to me, but just as a whole, like, the freshman talent is so great. And then I just got to thinking, like, and there are players who we don't even know, like, are going to pop, because that's just how this works, right? That, like, someone has a quiet freshman year and then they pop as a sophomore or they have a quiet first Two years and then they pop as a junior and senior. And like, we aren't anticipating who those players are, but, like, there will be other names. Think about Kiki or Yaffen a few years ago to what she is now. Right. Like, she's put herself in a position to be a topic WNB draft pick next year. We were not talking about her last year. We were not really talking about her in September in the same way we're talking about her now. And so, like, that is such, like, an exciting prospect for the sport and what the tournament can be. And just like, yeah, just the state of women's basketball as a whole. I mean, I see you, you shaking your head and smiling, too.
- [25:05]
Ben
I mean, I could probably list a 20, 27 draft class just off of freshmen who played well this season. And that's not even including, like, Diana Collins of Ohio State, who I'm sure is going to have a really big role coming up, you know, with. With all of the talent leaving the Buckeyes. And just like you mentioned, all the other freshmen who are justifiably sitting on the bench behind upperclassmen waiting their turn and how are they going to pop in upcoming years? It's a ridiculous prospect to think about because we already have so many players who are. There's a term GMs love to throw around. This person looks pro ready. I've heard that about juju Watkins. I've heard that about Madison Booker, and they're three years away from being pros. It's ridiculous.
- [25:41]
Sabrina
It is super ridiculous. And so, you know, the player that jumped out to me was Hannah Hidalgo. And she's one that I've kind of circled. And we've talked a lot about her all year long. But I was so impressed on Monday when they beat Ole Miss by how disruptive she was just at the top of Notre Dame zone and how much they dictated, like, the, the tempo of that game, the speed of that game. And it was something that, you know, some people talked about on the ESPN broadcast and at halftime as well, that normally you use this phrase falling back into a zone, but there is nothing about Notre Dame zone when they play it that is falling back into it is like, we are going to play zone and yet be the aggressor in that zone. And that is something that, you know, I'm so intrigued to see because this game between Oregon State and Notre Dame in the next round, it's two very different styles, right? Notre Dame is a team. Not only do they play this aggressive defense, but they love to get out and push the pace in transition. They play with a lot of pace. Hidalgo alone averages almost 8 points on fast break via fast break during a per game this season, which is like a pretty crazy number when you think about that's just her getting out and running in transition. That's so different than Oregon State as a whole. That averages just 5 points per game. 5.4 fast break points per game as a team this year. Like, Hannah is getting out and running more than the Beavers as a whole. And so you have these two teams that are both really good defensively and obviously Oregon State is very efficient offensively as well, but two kind of different styles clashing styles in some respects. And so I'm just really interested to see like is Hidalgo and Sonia Citron and the short the depth of Notre Dame, which really is not there. They're playing just about six players per game. Like, are they able to just almost wreck the Beavers and just like muck it up enough to to continue on this run? And she really is the the person who dictates it. And you know, I just have her circled in the Sweet 16 as a player to watch. I'm excited to be in Albany and watch her in person.
- [27:31]
Ben
It's the only time anyone has ever said I'm excited to be in Albany. We' going to clip that part. Fun.
- [27:36]
Sabrina
I'm excited for a lot of. I mean, Sabrina, you are going out to Portland and we should say I will be going to Albany. Chantel is joining me. Our colleague Nicole Auerbach will be there. You'll be joined by Grace Rayner. I mean, the Albany games set up in a way that a lot of people on Selection Sunday hope that they would like. I'm just saying that like a lot of the star power, we obviously knew it was going to be there. And this kind of first round that was full of excitement but not upsets set up very nicely for those of us who are watching basketball in Albany, New York over these next couple days.
- [28:08]
Ben
Yeah, even with a couple of the matchups that we had hoped for in Albany, two not coming to fruition. Like, I don't know how much I talked about the LSU Louisville potential matchup that we didn't get, but LSU Middle Tennessee State was still pretty fun for about two and a half quarters. And then even without getting, you know, Iowa, Kansas State Part 3, we still are getting Iowa Colorado for the second straight year in the Sweet 16. And it kind of gets forgotten in what became like the ascent of Caitlin Clark. But that was a pretty well contested game between those two teams back in Seattle last year. And you know, I will bang this drum until it no longer works. Like if Frida Foreman doesn't get into foul trouble, that is a dramatically different result for Colorado in that game. So, you know, we haven't talked a ton about the Buffaloes like heading into this because there are just a bazillion other teams worth discussing in Albany too, but not someone that Iowa can definitely sleep on going forward.
- [28:58]
Sabrina
Before we turn the page and start to dive into the Sweet 16 matchups in a little more depth, is there a player or two that, I don't know, you kind of want to say, bid a goodbye to in the sport of college basketball or someone that, you know, you just wanted to highlight because this is it for this chapter in their career?
- [29:15]
Ben
Yeah, I mean, I think we were all sort of tuned into the offensive fireworks of Tennessee and NC State on Monday morning or Monday afternoon, depending on where this game was airing. But Rekia Jackson was just completely phenomenal to start that game against Tennessee State. They had to reorient their entire plan to just keep her from getting the ball to stop Tennessee from scoring because there was nothing the Wolfpack could do to prevent her from scoring once, you know, the ball was in her hands. And it's just sort of this continuation of Rekia Jackson being an absolute terror in big games. Like whenever the lights are the brightest, Rekia Jackson is showing up. And do I wish over the course of her Tennessee career that she showed up in the non big games? Yeah, of course. But as long as you're going to be there when you know the stage is at its biggest and when the most eyes are on you, I thought she acquitted herself like just tremendously well in this tournament and previous tournaments. I know she came into that game against NC State averaging 18 points per game in her tournament career. Obviously exceeded that number by quite a bit. She put up 3310 against the Wolfpack on Monday, unfortunately in a losing effort. But it's like one thing to say goodbye. In two weeks she's going to be drafted by the WNBA and I'm sure she's going to be utilized right away by whatever WNB team ends up selecting her. But just to see her, you know, jump that level, like when she got to Tennessee, becoming that go to score, becoming that number one option. I'm sure the Lady Vols would have liked to have more team success over the time that she was there, but it's tough conference to make headway in with South Carolina at the top. There And Tennessee got about as close as anybody to beating South Carolina this season. We'll see if anybody manages to actually get the job done. But, yeah, I just, I've had such a tremendous time watching Rekia just bring it every time Tennessee needs her. And, like, it's going to be just really weird to watch them without her, without that, just, hey, we can give the ball to this girl and she's going to score. Like, what does Tennessee offense look like without that?
- [31:01]
Sabrina
She's going to be a really good pro, though. And there's a pretty good chance that the WNBA team she is going to is going to give her the basketball and say, Rakia, go get a bucket. And she's probably going to do the exact same thing. Maybe some growing pains thrown in, of course, but she's going to have a huge impact, I think as a WNB rookie. We both think that.
- [31:19]
Ben
Yeah. And then just one more, Ben, obviously you wrote about her last week. Deja Fair ends up climbing to number three in the overall NCAA Division 1 scoring records. I believe, like, with a minute left in the fourth quarter against UConn, like, made it. Made it right up until the end before she passed Kelsey Mitchell on that list. But, you know, you heard Paige Becker say it. Like, Deja Ferriss, one of the greatest college basketball scorers ever. Like, just a bucket. Wherever she was, Buffalo, Syracuse, you know, the Mac, the ACC in the NCAA tournament, she was finding a way to score. You know, you saw UConn again, just gear everything towards her. Like, Nica Meal was glued to her like white on rice, right? Like, it was just as attached as you possibly could be to Da Ja Fer. And still she finds a way to, like, free herself for some couple floaters, couple threes, you know, get Syracuse within a couple possessions by the end of that game. You know, personally, like, I have a hard time trusting very small guards in Deja Farris. 5 5. And you know, she misses a lot of shots, but she gets them all up and she scores points when her team needs them. And she's scored a lot of points over the last five years. So it's been a. It's been a cool career to watch for Dhvaer.
- [32:24]
Sabrina
And I think you saw like, and I learned about it and as you mentioned, I wrote about it on the site for the weekend, like, this really genuine closeness between her and close Jack, the coach of Syracuse. And you know, Coach Jack really referred to her as like a daughter and she referred to her whole team as like daughters. But this is a player the two of them. They've been connected for the past five years that, you know, Fair was first recruited to Buffalo. And she told me this story of how initially. It's so funny to me how close they've gotten because their origin story is almost humorous in that deja Fair was playing at a grassroots tournament and this lady, that's what she called Coach Jack, just was following her around and like going to all her her games, like on this given day, like all the different courts in this gym. And then she told her grandparents to die. J affair like, like, what is this woman doing? Basically, like, who is she? And like she had to be explained that like, oh, this is someone who is recruiting you and is interested and they've just formed this unbelievably close relationship. There was a story this past fall, Coach Jack took a leave of absence because she had a non cancerous brain tumor that impacted her vision and required three surgeries. And Djafer insisted on visiting the Oranges head coach, even though Koshak didn't really want that to happen and brought her pizza. And they talked about practice and you know, just like provided strength to the coach in a way that like, Coach, she just wasn't. She didn't really want to be vulnerable. But De Asia, like almost made her be vulnerable in a way that strengthened their bond and their relationship. And you saw the emotion as they were reflecting on it post game after their loss to UConn. The tears, the hugs, the comments about how again, this is my daughter. Like, I'm just so, so proud. There really was a unique relationship in Syracuse. This was their first NCAA tournament appearance since 2021. DJ affairs you mentioned, like we talk about Rekia Jackson, someone who a top three, top four pick in the upcoming WNBA draft. It will be really interesting what is next in T Asia Fair's life. You know, Coach Jack again reflected that this loss is a period in your life, like the end point, a literal punctuation mark. But that means like another chapter can also begin. And it will just be interesting to see kind of what that next chapter is like because as you mentioned, Sabrina, she is an unbelievable score at Syracuse she was afforded a huge green light and that's a big reason why she ends up with the number three, finishing number three in her career all time in terms of women's basketball scoring in the D1. But we'll see, like, what does this mean for her pro prospects? Will she get drafted? Will she have an opportunity to make a team? Because you know, you look at it, she really is strong she can finish oversized. Clearly her handle is she has a really tight, a really great handle and can create off the dribble and just has such like a confidence with the basketball in her hand. But we will see if she gets what kind of WNB interest she draws and maybe does she have to go to Europe and then come back to the wnba? Time will tell but deserves to be celebrated. Glad we wrote about her on the site. And you know she almost Syracuse almost pulled off that upset over UConn, hung around and almost snuck away with it. So credit to D'Asia Fair and the folks at Syracuse.
- [35:22]
Ben
Yeah, I just can't stress enough. Like third all time in division one in total points. Like she was not a top 100 recruit when she got to Buffalo and now the only players who have scored more points than her are Caitlin Clark and Kelsey Plum. Like that is just what a list.
- [35:36]
Sabrina
Yeah, I mean pretty incredible. Incredible story. As we mentioned. Like we're going to be going to Portland and Albany later this week. I guess. Let's set the bracket up a little bit and look at it kind of broadly, I guess. What are you kind of looking at? I mean I should say in the Albany 1 region we have a 1234, South Carolina, Indiana, Oregon State, Notre Dame, Albany 2 we have Iowa, Colorado, that's a 15 and LSU, UCLA, that's a 2. 3 we have in the Portland 4 region I'm going to go out of order because that's the bottom left. Gonzaga, Texas, that's a 14 and NC State. Stanford that's a 23 and South Carolina. Baylor is a 15 and UConn is Duke is a 3. 7. We're going to preview some of this in a little bit more depth later this week. But you know, are there thoughts or what's kind of your instant reaction when I map out the draw? What are you most looking forward to? What are you most excited to learn? What team? Maybe are you surprised to be there? What are you kind of thinking as this sweet 16 approaches?
- [36:34]
Ben
Well, the game that I'm easily the most excited for is lsu, ucla. And it bums me out a little bit that it's not going to be happening in Portland and that, you know, you and Chantelle get to be the ones watching that one take place in Albany. But just the star power that we have between LSU and UCLA, we're talking about the number one recruiting class from 2023 went to LSU. The number one recruiting class from 2022 went to UCLA. Lauren Betts versus Angel Reese. Like Charisma Osborne versus Flaje Johnson. Just the incredible loaded amount of talent on both of these rosters and the fact that like both of them have been, you know, number one and number two at various points during this regular season. Just to think that one of these teams has to have their season end in this sweet 16 when I realistically believe that both of them could win a national title is wild. But I mean, what is it, 1:00pm Eastern time on Saturday? Like, that's the game circle big highlighted on my calendar. No matter what else is happening, like, that's the one I want to be.
- [37:29]
Sabrina
Glued into as you're just waking up and having your breakfast. You'll be tuning in for that one, I guess. Then I have to go with a game out in Portland. Just really interested to watch usc. I'm sad selfishly that like I will miss out on the opportunity to watch more of juju Watkins in person because, you know, it has just struck me the poise that she plays with, the confidence that she plays with at her size, the skills she has. And I'm maybe looking a little bit too far ahead. But a potential elite matchup against Yukon like USC, UConn.
- [38:00]
Ben
Don't count out the Blue Devils, Ben.
- [38:02]
Sabrina
It's just a delight prospect to see, you know, Paige Beckers, who this year, because of the injuries that UConn has had, has been kind of playing up a position a little bit. Like she's played a lot more wing and I guess forward you could even say, than she has in the past. And obviously like she is a big guard. And so the thought of like her matching up with juju, who is obviously a big guard herself, I think could make for just a really delightful, enticing, just exciting. I'm just throwing out verbs now one on one matchup in the Elite Eight, especially with a spot on the Final Four that, you know, I'm jealous of you that you're going to get the opportunity to watch that one.
- [38:41]
Ben
I mean, I might. Baylor and Duke will have something to say about.
- [38:43]
Sabrina
That's a great point. That's a great point. You might get the chance to watch that.
- [38:47]
Ben
I did think it was interesting that after USC beat Kansas in the round of 32 game, you know, Lindsey Gottlieb was waxing poetic, as one does about what JuJu Watkins has done and said, you know, I just, if there is a freshman season just in the history of college basketball that has, you know, resembled what juju is doing this year just in terms of what she's done for this program And I'm thinking like, well, page one, National Player of the Year is a freshman three years ago. And granted it's UConn, she didn't have to completely transform it the way JuJu has with USC. So that's a little bit different. But you know, when we talk about freshman sensations, like there is only one freshman who has won National Player of the year and that is Paige Beckers and she's better this year. So yeah, if, if UConn, USC does come to pass, I do think that that's going to be quite the matchup. But as far as the Sweet 16 goes, anything else standing out to you?
- [39:31]
Sabrina
Well, people forget that about Paige. Again, as you mentioned, winning national Player of the Year as a freshman. But yeah, other matchups in the sweet 16, it is just the talent. Like I look at it the first weekend, I think the first two rounds of the tournament a really great appetizer for fans of this tournament because we saw a lot of really, really competitive games, but yet there weren't a ton of upsets, which sets up for a potentially really crazy, really competitive Sweet 16 and Elite 8. And I think, think, you know, you look at the star power, you look at the coaches, you look at the programs in the institutional history across all four quadrants of this bracket. Because we didn't get the madness in the first couple rounds, I do think like we might see some craziness that is unexpected. We might see Gonzaga take down Texas, we might see NCC take down Stanford. You can make cases for a lot of, if not all the lower seeded teams. You know, maybe not the Indiana, South Carolina game, I think that is the one that, you know, South Carolina, we should mention another dominant performance over North Carolina, literally beating them by 47 points and just, you know, running away with that game from the very beginning, maybe other than that game, like every other game, I think you can make a really convincing case for the lower seated team to upset the higher seated team. It's why I'm especially nervous that if you go to theathletic.com we made some early predictions, whereas the staff, we broke down the Sweet 16 matchups and of the eight games, I believe we picked the favorite, so to speak, the higher seed in all but one of those games. That makes me a little bit nervous as a staff. Now, we picked those games independently. So I didn't know who you were going to pick, Sabrina. You didn't know who I was going to pick. But I stepped back this morning when I was looking at that story and I was like, this doesn't feel right in my mind because there is too much talent on the board. So overall I'm just really excited for the weekend.
- [41:20]
Ben
Yeah, I think, you know, you hit the nail on the head there where like upsets are fun in the first round. But like at this point of the tournament I just want to watch really good teams play against one another and that's what we're getting in every single matchup. Right. Like we have, I think every single conference tournament champion is still alive. You know, among the power conferences, we've got, you know, Gonzaga, obviously winning the West Coast Conference, the very best three point shooting team in the league. And I think about how Texas's like toughest losses of the season were to Oklahoma when Oklahoma just like shot the crap out of the ball. And you know who can really shoot the crap out of the ball is Gonzaga. Like I think they made nine consecutive three pointers when they were turnaround that game against Utah in the wee hours of, you know, Pacific time last night as we were recording this. But yeah, like I'm with you. There's just you can realistically make an argument, I think for 15 of these teams to make the elite eight. And all due respect to Indiana, but that is a very, very cool place to be in as we set up for this week 16.
- [42:11]
Sabrina
That's a great point. And so we will be there. We will come to you with another podcast actually before these games even tip off. So that is why we are kind of holding back a little bit on the preview of some of these Sweet 16 games. We're going to bring you some of our insights from Albany and Portland respectively later this week once we touch down and start to get a feel for those regions and some of those teams even more, you know, stuff on the site that you kind of want to plug. We'll have a bunch of really good stories and some unique stories going up this week. I'll mention. And then Sabrina, you can fill in the gaps. I mean, starting this week we've talked to, as I mentioned, some WNB gms and about scouting some of these stars and these prospects and we got some of their thoughts and so we'll be kind of sharing some of the things that they said. We had a story go up today, on Tuesday that I recommend you checking out that I wrote on. South Carolina has a workout tradition in which their coaches all gather pregame on game days and do like a coaches only workout. And that was a really fun story to dive into. We'll have another South Carolina story as well by our colleague Grace Rayner on Camila Cardozo, which I think should be really good. Sabrina, what are you. I know you've been cooking up some stuff about the west coast that I believe is set to run this week. Do I have that right?
- [43:17]
Ben
Yeah, yeah, that's correct. I mean, I wrote a little about USC last night. Just sort of the mix of past and present that's happened in their program this year with Lindsey Gottlieb just bringing in all of the alumna who have felt disconnected from, let's face it, a losing program over the last 20 years. So just the re embracing of their history, which I thought was just really hit the nail on the head when you had Caleb Williams and Matt Leinert sitting next to each other and it's like everything great about USC all in one building. But yeah, more west coast stuff, ideally about Stanford and some other schools coming up this week. And yeah, I mean, just once we touch down in Albany and Portland, I'm sure the ideas will be flowing and a lot of teams that I haven't seen in person this year that I can't wait to dive into.
- [43:55]
Sabrina
Exactly. So we look forward to bringing you all of it. As I mentioned again, we'll have a podcast that will go live Friday, back on our normal schedule on Friday morning before all these games tip off so that you can, you know, learn all those little tidbits. And I guess that is it for me and you, Sabrina. Now I think it is time for Xena to go off the script.
- [44:13]
Zena Kada
Appreciate you, Ben and Sabrina for laying out the tournament games so far for us. It's been so much fun watching round one and two and seeing all these teams show up in such a competitive and like focused way. In my opinion, I think the tournament's harder, harder this year than it's ever been before. And that's not to take away anything from those that have won in the past. Those who have gotten to the tournament in the past, succeeded, moved on, nothing taking it away from that. I just think that in the years of the transfer portal, the COVID year era, and even just like the fact that the women's basketball is on a bigger stage than it's ever been before. This is hard. The parity is at an all time high. These players are staying in college and getting better. Teams are filling gaps with transfer players that kept them from, you know, proceeding in the tournament the years before. I mean, this is a very hard level in stage to play on right now. And so any team that made it Here, played here, made it to the second round and have since gone home. Kudos to them. And of course, the teams that are moving on to the sweet 16, of course, kudos to them. This has just been a really tough and amazing team. Now, before we prepare for the Sweet 16 and I send you off to our next pod coming out on Friday, I do have to go off the script for today's off the script. I want to talk about the Utah racial crime incident. So it is a little bit downer, but it's necessary. It's 2024. Racism still exists, and this incident is evidence of that. Number five seeded Utah played Saturday and Monday night in Spokane, Washington, where Gonzaga hosted the first and second round games in the Portland 3 region. But instead of being in a hotel in Spokane, Washington, where you would have imagined they'd be, they were in a hotel in Coeur d'alene, Idaho, which is about 30 miles east of Spokane, Washington, where Gonzaga's arena is. And they first got there on Thursday. And when the team, the band and the cheerleaders walked to a restaurant for dinner that was nearby, a truck drove by them and revved its engine in a factor of intimidation. And a person yelled the N word towards the group. That's what was reported. And as that same group was leaving the restaurant, going back to their hotel after dinner, the situation escalated. This time, two trucks were present, still revving their engines, still yelling the N words. After that was communicated to their leadership, they ended up having to switch hotels out of safety concerns. Now, it is important to note that this hotel was not selected by Gonzaga. It is part of what happens in the NCAA tournament. The NCAA committee selects who hosts and they select where the opponents coming into those games of the host city will stay. And ultimately, the NCAA chose Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Now, the University of Gonzaga has made a public statement on this. You can see it on their X page, formerly known as Twitter, as well as the governor of Idaho, Idaho, Brad Little. Same both statements, ultimately saying, you know, they don't tolerate hate harassment. They find it repugnant and ugly that this happened. Governor Brad Little saying that this is not at all the standards of the state of Idaho, as did the statement for Gonzaga say this does not reflect their principles and values and things that they hold themselves accountable to. Similar sentiments in that this ain't us. We don't do racism. We don't stand for racism. We don't believe in it. We hate that this happened. It should not have happened. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's Usually the right sentiment, and it's the one that's often repeated. Yet these things happen regardless. Despite being in a state that apparently does not stand for racism and harassment and bullying, as Governor Brad Little said, this team was still harassed and intimidated and bullying and ultimately intimidated to the point that they had to change their hotel. It's really unfortunate that this happened, and I feel incredibly sorry for the experience that these Utah members had. I remember having something similar like this happen to me when I was about six years old in which my mother and I were walking on a three lane, three three to four lane street, so not a highway, but a busy street. And a pickup truck ran by us or drove by us two times. The second time throwing bottles at us. I remember thinking that they were coming back around to pick us up to help us because we were walking and it was a very long walk, I was very tired. And instead they threw bottles. And now I don't even remember what was in them, but some of them were full. My mother, of course, got me out of the way. And I remember being scared at that time, but not really knowing what was going on. And I remember my mother being incredibly upset to the point that she held her head in her hands. And I think she was upset about the fact that she couldn't protect me the way she wanted to. Sure, she kept me away from the bottles, but she couldn't keep me away from the incident. And this is what I think of when I think about how the NCAA messed up in this moment. A lot of the times when these racial incidences happen, people say to claim that they're not racist. They say things like, well, I don't see color. I think everyone's equal. I would never do that because I don't see color. And I think everyone's the same, no one's different. I would never think that I'm better than someone because of my race. I would never think anyone is beneath me because of their race. You very utopian. It's supposed to be positively intended. The sentiment is supposed to be positive, but it's actually quite dangerous because the problem is when you don't see color, you don't see the experiences associated with that color. And when you don't see the experiences associated with that color, you don't know to think in trying to prevent the negative experiences, in trying to protect those people in that group of color from the negative experiences. And I think that's what happened here. I'm sure that the NCAA did their research on putting this team in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Because God knows there's absolutely no reason that a team should be that far from their hosting site. But in the time that they did their research, they didn't think about the racial makeup of their group. Idaho is not a very racially diverse state. 89% of their population is white, 0.4% is black, 0.9% is American Indian or Alaskan, and 1.2% is Asian. They're also not racially inviting. Kootenai county, the Idaho county in which Coeur d'alene is based, is also the home base of the Aryan nations group. This is a North American anti Semitic, neo Nazi and white supremacist hate group that was founded by Richard Butler in the 1970s. Richard Butler had an idea that another Richard named Richard Miles tried to keep going. He had actually had the original thought and Richard Butler tried to keep it going of creating a white homeland. Richard Miles tried to push back in the 70s to have 31 million people or so white people buy land in Idaho or in this particular region of America to make a quote, white homeland that was purely white, not racially diverse, with Christian values, et cetera. This created a hotbed for neo Nazi Aryan ideals to percolate. And so there's quite a few racist people, quite a few homophobic people, quite a few anti Semitic people in Coeur d'alene, Idaho. Thus, in Idaho overall, while Brad Little said in his statement, this is is not what Idaho stands for, to silence people and to intimidate people and harass people. Idaho is quite literally the home base of a group that is known to do just that. And had the NCAA done their research, they would have seen this and thought maybe a team that who star player in Alyssa Pele, who is Alaskan and whose family travels often to games, probably wouldn't feel so invited in a city like Coeur d'alene, Idaho, where many people don't look like her, and apparently a group is based there that hates to have people that look like her there. Or just the fact that this team and their band and their cheerleaders have black people within the rosters. Another group that is not usually welcomed by these hate groups that are based in Coeur d'alene, Idaho. Had they thought about those aspects of the team, thought about their color, their makeup, they probably would have gone against putting them in this different state, let alone this particular city. But in the ignorance that comes with the bliss of not thinking of color, painful, harmful, derailing type of experiences happen like this. And I really hope that this is a wake up call, a reminder, whatever you want to call it for the NCAA when they plan these things in the future. They have to be mindful or else this will happen again. I'm really sorry to everyone involved that experienced this intimidation. I know what it feels like, I know the aftermath, how it sticks with you, and I really, really hope that it doesn't undo the work that they've done this year getting to this point, especially now that they've gone home after a loss to Gonzaga. NCAA do better. You missed the mark here. All right, let's liven things back up. Podcast coming out on Friday. We're looking ahead to the sweet 16. Appreciate you all hanging out with us, talking about the first first two rounds, talking about some players we're expected to see in the W, talking about the freshies. The games continue folks. So make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast. Leave those comments, join the conversation. Be involved. We definitely want to make sure that we're including you all in what we're talking about here. But for now, appreciate you all lending your ear for Ben Sabrina, I'm Zena Kada thanking you for listening and encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game because that's the only way that we're going to keep growing it. All right folks, until next time.
- [55:00]
Ben
As.
- [55:00]
Sabrina
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Zena Kada
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Ben
ACAST powers the World's Best Podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend.
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Zena Kada
Hey.
- [56:27]
Sabrina
Guys, we have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
- [56:30]
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
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We love getting to talk to experts. We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also love hearing from you.
- [56:41]
But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh.
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A lot has changed in the last seven years and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older with us.
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So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
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The Laugh Lines podcast will be all about aging together better and also being able to laugh about getting older.
- [57:04]
We hope you'll join us. Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness New episodes every Tuesday.
- [57:12]
Ben
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. Com.