← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Loading summary
Transcript81 lines
- [00:00]
Zena Keda
As a salesperson, the search for the right buyer or buying groups can feel like you're endlessly sifting through leads and hoping they're ready to buy. Thankfully, LinkedIn Sales Navigator is more than just a tool, it's your strategic sales partner. LinkedIn Sales Navigator is a sales intelligence platform that helps professionals effectively prospect and engage high value customers, drive higher revenue and increase sales performance. Sales Navigator helps you target the right buyers, surface key signals such as job changes or when which accounts you should prioritize and shows you hidden allies so you can find those buyers that are most likely to convert. Whether you're looking for new clients or strengthening relationships of current accounts, LinkedIn Sales Navigator has a new AI feature designed to help sellers find the right people and get right to the right conversations, all at scale. Fueled by LinkedIn's 1 billion-member platform, Sales Navigator gives you the most up to date first party data, enabling you to unlock conversations with the people that matter. Ready to get right to the right conversations? Try LinkedIn Sales Navigator now with a 60 day free trial at LinkedIn.combaseballshow that is LinkedIn.combaseballshow for a 60 day free trial. Terms and conditions apply.
- [01:16]
Wayfair Advertiser
Summer is almost here and there's no better place to go for outside furniture than Wayfair. Wayfair's huge selection of outdoor essentials will help you make your outdoor space more comfortable, functional and most importantly, more you. Get your outdoor space rated today so you can enjoy it all season long. When you have kids, they love to be outside, so you gotta be out there to watch them. From Wayfair, you can have outdoor sofas, maybe a set of chairs, a gazebo, some umbrellas because it's really hot down here in the South. No matter the need. Wayfair's huge selection of home items makes it easy to find exactly what's right for you. There's something for every style and every home, no matter your space or budget. Wayfair makes it easy to tackle your summer home goals with endless inspiration for every space and budget, including the outdoors. Free and easy delivery even on the big stuff. No more huge delivery fees for patio furniture. Get big stuff like patio sets, gazebos, hot tubs, outdoor dining sets and more shipped free. Find all your outdoor must haves from seating to pool lounges to trampolines all in one convenient place. Shop a huge selection of outdoor furniture online this summer. Get outside with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.
- [02:46]
Liquid IV Advertiser
Love looks different for everyone, especially when it comes to all the ways you treat and celebrate yourself. I'm a big hammock head. Sunshine, a hammock, a paperback western. That's my kind of everyday indulgence. And you can gift yourself the everyday indulgence of extraordinary Hydration with Liquid IV powered by Liv Hydro Science. Visit LiquidIV.com to fall in love with flavors like the zesty new hydration multiplier, sugar free Raspberry Lemonade and use code no dunks to save 20% off your first order. Liquid IV is easy and convenient. You just tear, pour and enjoy. It's my go to when I'm getting a pump in or handing out buckets, but it's great for staying hydrated during long days, enjoying the outdoors or any other time you need some hydration in your body. Liquid IV offers so many true to fruit flavors. Whether they be hydration multipliers like acai berry, lemon, lime and pina colada, or sugar free like raspberry lemonade, white peach and rainbow sherbet. The flavors are always true to fruit. Break the mold and your own ritual. Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone because Liquid IV is powered by LIV Hydroscience, an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. You're getting three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink plus plus eight essential vitamins and nutrients and Liquid IV is always non gmo, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free. So treat yourself to extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order at Liquid IV when you go to Liquid IV.com and use code no Dunks at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code no Dunks@liquidiv.com.
- [04:51]
Chantelle Jennings
For the athletic I'm Zena Caida and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's hoops. Whether you're a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the game or you were catching some college basketball right before Super Bowl Sunday and you're like we gotta break these games down. Don't worry, you're in the right spot. This is a safe space for you to learn everything you want to know about women's basketball. But you gotta do two things. Number one, subscribe to this pod wherever you get your pods. And then number two Go subscribe to the Athletic. There is amazing written content on all these things that you want to know within the world of women's basketball. Now joined today, I got Ben Pickman and Chantelle Jennings in the building to talk to me about some of these teams that have always been in our minds, the blue bloods of women's college basketball. It's usually when you hear blue bloods, you think of men's college basketball. You think about the UNCs, the Dukes, the Kentucky's, the ones that have always reigned over men's college basketball. Well, the colors aren't so clean on the women's side, but they are well known. There's three teams that come to mind, Stanford, UConn and Tennessee. Now the funny thing is, is when you look up these teams and you look at their media guides or their game notes, et cetera, they make their dominance well known. For example, on the Stanford game notes, right at the bottom of every single page they write 1990, 1992 and 20, 21 national champions, 15 final four appearances, 27 PAC, 12 championships, 29 WBCA, all Americans. That's not even listing the amount of people they've gotten into the wnba, the amount of number one, number two, number three draft picks that's not national players of the years, et cetera. Those are just some of the accolades they wanted to put at the bottom. Tennessee, they've got a whole section dedicated to the amount of accolades that they've received over the years. NCAA appearances, 42, regional appearances, 36, WNBA players, 53, all Americans, 22. The list goes on. And don't worry, yeah, UConn does the same thing. And their media guy, they make sure you know about their pro, their program history. An all time record of 1,296 games won to just 322 lost. Now I haven't even touched on all the things about these particular programs, but interestingly enough, as you look at them today, they're not exactly in the same place that they've always been. And that's why I got Chantelle and Ben here to help me break it down. I want to go a little bit quickly in the past, but to figure out where they are today. Ben Chantel, let's do what I like to do a lot. Let's start out West. Gotta start out with Stanford because Stanford's a game, a team that, you know, I've actually even been covering as a color analyst out here in the Bay. But that Notre Dame game against Stanford was pretty jarring for what we've Known Stanford to be. Chantelle, I'm going to start with you because you actually followed Tara Vandiver around last year in her final season. And I think that has something to do with where they stand today. But when you think about Stanford, what goes through your mind?
- [08:40]
Ben Pickman
So I think when I think about the program historically, I think about Tara Vandevere, like, the three teams in this conversation. I think what makes it really special in women's basketball is, like, there's one coach kind of tied to the success at each school, whether that's Gene Oriam at UConn, Pat Summitt at Tennessee. Like, it's Tara Vandevere at Stanford. Like, you think of her little bob haircut. Like the joggers on the sideline. It's just Tara. And, yeah, obviously, all of these programs go through transitions, and I think that's what you were referencing. All of these programs, whether it's because of a coaching change or multiple coaching changes after the legend that sort of brought them to dominance, like Tennessee, or because of changing tides in basketball, which have affected UConn and all of these programs, like, the game is changing, and therefore, sort of the dominant forces within the game have also changed. But I think when you think of Stanford, you just think of that cardinal color. You think of the crazy tree, which at every single tournament might be something completely different. And you think of Tara Vandevere's bobbed haircut.
- [09:45]
Chantelle Jennings
There you go. And if you look in the crowd, too, it's not just Tara Vandevere's bobbed haircut. All the fans at Maple's Pavilion also have that haircut as well.
- [09:55]
Ben Pickman
They almost see the same haircutter.
- [09:57]
Chantelle Jennings
I'm trying to.
- [09:58]
Ben Pickman
They all go to the same salon.
- [09:59]
Chantelle Jennings
There's one person down in Palo Alto, in Palo Alto that's just like, line them up. They've got to clean it up. They got to clean it up.
- [10:06]
Ben Pickman
Give me the Tara. Give me the Tara.
- [10:08]
Chantelle Jennings
Exactly. Give me the Tara. But I want to ask you, Ben, like, all of these programs have gotten to where they are based off of, like, one thing. They've done incredibly well, in my opinion. When I think of Stanford, I think about post play. I feel like that's, like, been their staple is post play. For you, Ben, how would you evaluate, like, what has made Stanford the program over the years that's been able to get so much success?
- [10:33]
Kim Mulkey
Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely one of them. I think about just overall kind of sustained excellence and also a sense of poise in big moments that I think goes along with like the aura that they have built. Right. And I think so much of that stems from that obviously stems from Tara Vandiver. Right. And just like the qualities and attributes and the kinds of players she recruited, I think about like the kind of constant, the forwards as you're talking about Xena, you know, for two plus decades that she was just able to bring in, that went on often to go play in the wnba. And the ability to kind of rebuild and reload and retool. Yes. Adapt. Right. Like, because I do think you will talk to any college coach right now and they will talk about like being adaptable and malleable is so important. But like Stanford definitely is one of those schools that like we want a player to fit in with Stanford. Right. In the culture of the university and the culture of the program. And so I definitely think there was this like a clarity. I mean we've seen in recent years like always one of the most efficient offenses in the country. Right. You know, I think like one of these top 95, 96, 99, 100 percentile offenses like every single year because they don't make a lot of mistakes and they shoot it pretty well. They're efficient around the basket and they're also good defensively, obviously. Like they're a really good team. So all their metrics are really good. But yeah, overall excellence and being able to consistently retool, that's kind of what I think about when I think about how they would always play.
- [12:08]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, no, that sustained excellence is a perfect way to think about Stanford. And it's funny because it also for me matches like them as an academic institution as well. It just translates overall to the entire brand of Stanford. But Chantel, let's be honest here, that is not necessarily the brand that has been portrayed recently in this particularly recent season. Stanford right now, you know, started out pretty strong and particularly in their three point shooting, but after losing some key personnel, they've been middling and they've been towards the bottom of the acc. Talk a little bit about some of the changes that Stanford has experienced and where they are now currently.
- [12:48]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I think, you know, and you've said this on the pod before, like in terms of Stanford's play, you think of those forwards, the Iwumike sisters, Nneka and Cheney. You think of Jane Appel, like that dominance and like we can't talk about the All Americans without, like, I think of Stanford when I was in high school, like Candice Wiggins, like those sort of players as well. But when we're talking about the post play, the interior play. Like any team that was going to lose a player like Cameron Brink and Kiki Iriafen, like that was going to be a team going through massive transition, right? Two players, both of that caliber, but also players who took up that many minutes. Add in Hannah Jump, the best three point shooter in program history, leaving, and you have a team that has lost its best outside presence and its two best inside presences. I don't think anyone thought Stanford was going to, even if Tara were still coaching, walk into the ACC and just sort of make the conference its own. So you had a team that was going through some personnel transition on the floor. You're going through a personnel transition at the head coaching pay. The longtime associate head coach who played for Tara Vandiver takes over as head coach. You're obviously losing players to the transfer portal like Kiki. And so there's just a lot of transition. And the players that came back in terms of the, like veteran players, Brooke Dimitri, Elena Pascana, solid, good players. But it's not like they are the Kiki Iriafen or Cambrink stature, right? Like they are players who are really, really good at what they do. But you're not going to build an entire team around a singular player in that way. And so I never expected this Stanford team to look amazing. You talked about the Notre Dame game. Obviously, as a Minnesotan, we have to bring up Minnesota native Nunu Agara not in that game for most of it. So there are personnel things to each game as well that sort of explain perhaps some of the differentials and all of that. But from the beginning of this season, it's not like you want to say, like, throw the record book out on this one. But like what matters most is like this is a team going through change of the head coaching position, change on the court, change in conference. They are now flying across the country for these games. Instead of like their furthest trip before was what Colorado. Now they're flying to Virginia for like conference games. Like, this is just a team that's entire foundation and everything it has known has completely changed. And so it was going to be a year of transition and change. And I think we will know more about the future of Stanford as we look forward to next year and the year after, how they respond to all of these changes. Because you can only respond so much within this first year. But so far it's not like they're throwing in the towel in these games or anything, but there's a lot to build around moving forward I think. But it's just this is a year of transition in Palo Alto.
- [15:33]
Chantelle Jennings
That's a really good point. Especially when you look at their roster makeup. You've got Elena Bozgana and Brooke Dimitri really being the only returning seniors to this team. There's transfers, there's lots of sophomores and freshmen that are kind of stepping up in those positions. Courtney Ogden, Chloe Clardy, Nunu Aguera, Shay Ijuoye, like, but a lot of youth overall with Stanford. Now, you mentioned conference change and I think that there's something to be said about different styles of play, maybe in the way that they show up in these conferences. And Ben, I want to ask you about that conference change. Cause it's not just the distance that is big, don't get me wrong. Having to go on the road for a week, two weeks at a time to go play your opponents can put a damper on your body, could put a damper in the way that you operate. But there's also a factor of playing against teams you've never seen before. What do you think how much impact that's made on Stanford's ability to continue their sustained excellence this year, Ben?
- [16:32]
Kim Mulkey
I mean, I think it, you can say it played a part in it, but like they've lost twice to Cal, right? Like one of those was a close loss. The other loss was a 20 point loss. Like that's not a conference realignment loss, like that's a basketball loss, right? Like that is just obviously one of their 13 defeats, but. Or two of them, I should say. But that's one opponent. I think what is hard here and like when we think about succession, planning a great coaches is as Chantelle throughout, there's so many variables that are like at play when evaluating Stanford right now, like if I'm a fan or a booster or a member of the administration, I think where you sit back and you're like, okay, is it the roster turnover? Is it adjusting to a new style or travel or new campuses or is it coach related, right? There's like three buckets and where does it kind of net out as to like what is the problem? I think is like the big question that I know we're kind of talking about, but also talking around because it's like this impossibly gray area, right, that you wouldn't know unless you lived in the program. What I think though is so alarming, you know, about say the 49 point Notre Dame loss is like those are the kind of defeats that make you step back and say like is something really not working right when you turn the basketball over 29 times, which is almost a program record? Like, yeah, you can say like, let's throw that out as your worst loss of the year. You can't play any worse than that. But also those are the kind of defeats if they happen regularly that like you have to step back, like if you're an administrator and start to wonder like what's up. Right. And I'm not saying like Stanford should make a rash move right now, but it definitely is a little bit alarming. Like 49 points to Notre Dame, 25 point loss to Ohio State, 25 point loss to Duke. Like, you know, I know I'm just cherry picking some of these defeats, but these are the best teams they played on the schedule. Right? I mean, maybe you hold on. If you're going to say like, they probably should have beat LSU back in early December.
- [18:30]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, right.
- [18:31]
Kim Mulkey
And if they get that win instead of losing in overtime, maybe this is a different conversation. And so it's like what do you hold on to as you evaluate the program? But what is tricky here is that there's so many variables at play, but the 49 point loss is just a, it just sticks out because you're just not. I mean, Stanford doesn't lose by 50. Right. And when some, you lose by 50, something really not great is in the water or is happening or is going on.
- [18:57]
Chantelle Jennings
And that's the thing that is particularly jarring is that it's not normal for a school like Stanford to experience a loss at that level. Especially because there is a sense of poise, even if you take a loss, to take it in such a way seems so out of character for Stanford. And I like the way that, you know, Chantel, you mentioned it is like this is a year of transition. So how much weight do you put on this particular season in which you've only got two of these returning seniors that are trying to hold on to what they had for the last four years, but they've got to do this now with a new generation of sophomores of freshmen that are now getting acclimated to the poise that Stanford is known for and they also have to get new acclimated to a new coach that is also trying to establish her own level of dominance in the acc.
- [19:47]
Kim Mulkey
You still do have a number of four and five stars who are coming in in future years. Like, and that is one of the things, if I'm a Stanford fan, like, I'm holding onto that, that just because you're struggling Right now doesn't mean that like you're going to struggle in the long term. And if we look to, you know, men's college basketball is just like an example, for instance, like it wasn't that long ago that right before Coach K retires, for instance, like Duke missed the NCAA tournament with a bunch of five stars. Right. There was a year, I think after the COVID season, it was their first time missing the NCAA tournament since the late the mid-90s. But like there was a team with, I think it was like Jeremy Roach and Mark Williams on it.
- [20:25]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah.
- [20:26]
Kim Mulkey
Did not make the tournament. Right. And the year, you know, Coach K had announced he was retiring and Paolo Banquero comes in, they make the tournament final. Right. And so like, just because you have one year doesn't mean that, like you need to tear it all down and start over. Like even the great programs and the great coaches have off seasons, have down seasons. And so, you know, it is encouraging that you have a number of four and five stars coming in in future seasons or at least who have verbally committed, but still, again, like a 49 point loss and some of the struggles that they have this year and likely going to miss the tournament for the first time since 1987. Like, there's a lot of variables, but it still is fair to have the conversation we're having, I guess because of the struggles we've seen.
- [21:10]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I think, like, it's interesting you said, like, it's not the Stanford we're used to like, or whatever it was that you said. Exactly. Like we're not used to this for Stanford. And it's like, yeah, we're used to all three of these programs. It's like there's a standard of 6 success that the program has established that it's like regardless of the situation, regardless of the roster, regardless of what's going on, you have a certain level of expectation for what a Stanford team looks like. This is not it currently. Right. Like, this is a different team in terms of like looking at specific moments. Like, yeah, the Notre Dame loss, really, really bad. Really, really bad.
- [21:44]
Chantelle Jennings
And I know we haven't even mentioned the score of that. It was 96, 47. So just wanted to put that out there. Yep.
- [21:49]
Ben Pickman
This is also, though, you know, I'm sure in 1998 when Stanford was the only number one seed in women's NCAA tournament history to get upset by a 16 seed that year. Like there were probably calls at that point, like, what's going on in the program? Something's totally wrong. Like, is you know, is Tara the right person to lead this team forward? Like, I'm not saying we need to, like, caveat it in any way like that, but it's like this is a program and programs go through things, as Ben pointed out, like men's side, women's side. There are times of transition. There are times when really bad losses happen. Whether that's a 161 or a 50 point loss on the road in South Bend, these things happen and they can happen in a vacuum. I think we need to sort of, at the end of this year, look back. Is like, is this just sort of a transitional year for Stanford or is this going to be more of the same going forward? I think sort of an inherent struggle that Stanford is going to have as we look forward. Like, yes, they have four top 100 players coming in, but because Stanford is such a high academic institution, they're always going to struggle to get transfer portal players. Like, this is not a team that can just like bop into the transfer portal and bring in four players and get them in. Like, it's going to be really, really hard for this team. And that's why we've seen so few players transfer into Stanford. Like, academically, the requirements that you need to get into Stanford as a grad student, like, they need to get in on their own merit as well. And so you're going to be seeing a very small group of players who are sort of hitting that standard to get into Stanford as a transfer portal player. And so I think that is kind of something that separates it. And you can, you can play both sides of that. Because sometimes Stanford, like, Stanford fans will say, like, well, we have a smaller recruiting pool, right, because xyz, you know, academically. But then you talk to other coaches who've recruited against Stanford and they go, that's not a negative. Like, if you can say, I've got $100,000 a year education for you for free, like, that's not a negative. Like, that allows, like, maybe in total is a smaller pool, but in terms of the pool that you can capture that might be interested in that, like, you've got a captive audience for that. And so, you know, I think in terms of the transfer portal, though, when you think of other teams and sort of how they've utilized it to really boost their programs, like, if Stanford were any other program right now, I'd say this is a team that really needs to go into the portal and get a really good ball handler. Get like XYZ for their team next year. Stanford just can't do that.
- [24:16]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, they're very unique in that regard. I'll tell you what, they definitely capture the attention of the parents when it comes to recruitment. I mean that's, it's a crazy ask. I remember my recruitment days, especially when I was in the Ivy League. Like, yeah, my mom did not want to hear anything else other than, oh, a free Ivy League education. It's the same thing with Stanford. I'll leave the conversation on Stanford with this. In majority of their games, particularly in their last 10 games, majority of their scoring comes from their seven youngest players. So when you talk about transition and you talk about having a down year, if majority of your scoring is coming from your youngest players, let's say next year is going to look a little bit better. And also the fact that of their five commits that they have three of them are over the size of 6ft 2. So some size coming into Stanford and that's something that they have missed, especially with Cameron Brink going on to the W and Kiki transferring to usc. Now let's transition because the next school we want to talk about and that's going to be Tennessee is not one. I feel like each one of these schools have had are in different periods of their, their blue blood life trajectory in the sense that Stanford still, you know, they were top, they were nine in the AP top 25 last year. Obviously very different this year. Tennessee's been up and down and they also recently experienced a coaching change. Ben layout for me, when you think about Tennessee historically, what comes to mind?
- [25:41]
Kim Mulkey
I mean, greatness. Pat Summitt just like winning and winning and winning and more Final Fours and you know, the color orange, the baby blue, like just an all time great, not the best program ever. Like that's kind of what we're talking about here. One of the great coaches in the history of basketball, men's or women's. And I'm so glad, Zena, that you kind of laid out the conversation this way because and I'm so curious what like both of you think on this because when I think about Tennessee and you guys have talked a lot about them this season on shows that I haven't always been on is like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, like expectations, I think so much inform preseason expectations sometimes we are anchored to them. Right? And like Tennessee is the epitome of that in that like so much of how they've been the past couple years is underwhelming because of where they have been. Right. Like so many programs in America would trade the success that Tennessee has had. Right. And I think that's why their decision to part ways with Kelly Harper surprised so many people. Is that, like, they were not under 500, under 500, under 500 over these past couple years when Kelly Harper was coaching the team. Right. I believe, like, heading into the NCAA tournament, they were a three seed, a four seed, a four seed and a six seed. Like, that's not terrible. Like, how many programs in the country would take that? That means you're like top 12, top 16. You know, like, do the math there. You're. You're a ranked team, like, every one of those years, pretty much. And yet someone loses their job and someone else comes in and Kim Caldwell. So, like, expectations. I think preseason expectations very much inform what we think of them. But this is Tennessee. This is an all time great program. So, like, expectations come with it. And it's why there's such an interesting story this year, too.
- [27:30]
Chantelle Jennings
And I'm happy you said that, because when I say middling, I mean middling of the top 25, not middling of the country. I mean middling of the top 25. And it's absolutely a great point to call out in that the bar is higher in Tennessee and not because it's, you know, Rocky Mountaintop. I'm not even sure. Is that. Is that the statement, Chantel, am I saying it right?
- [27:49]
Ben Pickman
Rocky Top.
- [27:50]
Chantelle Jennings
Rocky Top. There you go. Thank you. I just want to make sure I'm saying my things right, you know, but it's not just because of the higher elevation there. It's just that's the standard that's been set from the history of Pat Summitt. So, Chantelle, walk me through it now. You're coming from that history. I think of Tennessee. I think of Candace Parker. I think of tennis Parker tapping her shoulder when she's about to shoot her free throws. Like, I think of that era of Tennessee basketball, and I'm just like, oh, they're unreal. They're Duncan, the transition game's insane. They're the coolest basketball players, swaggy as basketball players. And Pat Summitt wants nothing below excellence. Nothing below excellence. So walk me through how we're here today with Kim Caldwell, where people are starting to cheer again for Tennessee to get back to that level of Pat Summit excellence. What was that transition period like to get to here?
- [28:45]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, well, I think it's interesting because Tennessee, like you said, is sort of the furthest along in this blue blood timeline in terms of the singular coach that really established the program. And so after Pat Summitt stepped down. Her longtime assistant, Holly Warlick, takes over. And the first half of Holly's tenure, I believe it was eight years. This is a team that's making it to the Elite Eight. This is a really solid program. Those were a lot of players that. It was like their recency in their memory was sort of that the Candace Parker era. The Summit blue, orange jerseys, the swarming defense that. That's when I think of Tennessee, I think of, like a swarming defense that you would watch and be like, oh, my gosh, it's like suffocating and then turning that into offense, like SEC defense. You think A Tennessee defense like that, in my mind, was sort of the era I grew up in. And so then it sort of starts going down at the. The second half of the Holly Warlick years. They stay within the PAT Summit coaching tree, which was at the time, I think, really made sense for the program. They bring in Kelly Harper, who had played for PAT Summit, won some national titles with PAT Summit, is familiar to the program, a Tennessee native. Again, sort of staying within this tree, which is also what we've seen at Stanford, right? Like staying within the Tara Vandever tree. And like Ben said, like, for any other program, pretty damn good. Like, they finished no lower than fourth in the SEC every year. And this is during South Carolina's reign. Like, so basically take first place out. You know, if you're finishing in the first, two losers to South Carolina, like most SEC schools would be, like, not bad. Tennessee is not most schools. And so the administration makes the decision to move on to Kim Caldwell, who was definitely an outside of the box hire. Someone who had only had a year of Division 1 basketball experience, has a very unique playing style, a very unique substitution style, sort of that hockey sub that we've seen this year so much. And I think there are a lot of questions. And it was interesting, like, going down to Knoxville this year to meet with Kim. She heard and she understood all the questions. She was like, yeah, I've only coached a year at Division 1 basketball. I get that there are questions. I get what the expectation is here. Every time I walk out onto that court, like, I see the Summit script on the floor. Like, yeah, you know what the expectation is. You walk past those eight NCAA trophies like the Tennessee coaching offices. You go down a hallway and there's a glass. It's literally just a glass wall. And it has all of their SEC trophies, it has all of their Final Four nets, and it has all of their national championship trophies. So Kim literally walks by that Wall every single day to get to her office. Like, wow, here's the expectation. Don't miss the NCAA tournament because literally we're the only program that has never done that. She's like, got it. I have coached 30 Division 1 games.
- [31:38]
Kim Mulkey
Cool.
- [31:39]
Ben Pickman
I'm in. But what I think has really been interesting about this Kim Caldwell transition is, like I said, you think about Tennessee and you think about defense. Kim's defense is very different. The sort of full court, pressing, suffocating defense. But that energy, that mentality that we're gonna outwork you and we're gonna outwork you through 40 minutes and we're gonna out tough you, that to me feels very Summit esque in terms of the feeling of how they're playing. And it looks different. It looks different than a lot of programs. And we can kind of talk about what that means for Tennessee's future going forward, but it still sort of feels, I'd imagine for fans of Tennessee that have been there for the last 40 years, like, there's something familiar about this defense and this energy and this defensive energy they're playing with.
- [32:24]
Chantelle Jennings
I was actually going to ask you, like, does it feel as if Kim Caldwell is trying to revive the Pat Summit esque or Pat Summitt era of Tennessee basketball?
- [32:32]
Ben Pickman
Or.
- [32:32]
Chantelle Jennings
Ben, do you think, you know, how is Kim Caldwell kind of putting her stamp on this team and finding success in today's sec?
- [32:39]
Kim Mulkey
I mean, maybe, and maybe we're talking out a think piece or a column here. Like, maybe by breaking the lineage and by going out of the box, they've actually just revived and provided life to the box that they were trying to break out of.
- [32:52]
Chantelle Jennings
Right, right. I love that.
- [32:53]
Kim Mulkey
And I do think, like, Chantel talks so much about kind of energy and the excitement of their press and the hockey subs that they make and just like how unique that is. You know, in the end, like, when we get to mid March or April of this season, there's a very good chance that, like, Tennessee, despite being one of, I think the pleasant surprises of this season, bows out, say, in the sweet 16 much like they have in some recent seasons. Right. Like, you know, that's kind of been where they've gotten and the inability to take the next step and get to an elite eight and a final Four, like they did in the Pat Summon era. Like, in the end, that was part of Kelly Harper's undoing. Right. That they were not able to take the next step. And so. So it's very likely, you know, that this Tennessee team bows out in that exact Same stage. But if you're looking at process and if you're looking at the energy and kind of the life that's back in the program, like, you know, I do think there is so much more juice to how they're playing, how they're performing, how people are talking about it. And you know, I do think, like the fact that they play a different style of basketball than so many teams around the country, that is the kind of thing that again, it differentiates you to recruit to, differentiates you to assisting coaches, to people watching, to people writing, to covering the program that's exciting for people following Tennessee basketball or just following the sport. And so that's where, like, again, people didn't have a lot of expectations for this season. It was really supposed to be a transitional year. And so maybe we're beholden to the preseason expectations that we have. But if you just focus on process here, I think that's the thing that again, if you're a Tennessee fan, you're so excited about because you hope that this year might just end up being a Sweet 16 appearance, like that might have been where they've gotten the past couple of years, but you hope that we've laid such a strong foundation in year one that we're only going to go up with the kinds of recruits that we get with the kinds of people that are coming into the program, you know, in year two, three, four of Kim Caldwell's error tenure as the Lady Vols coach.
- [34:51]
Chantelle Jennings
I'm happy you mentioned the excitement around this team because I think that that's the thing that you can feel around the country for Tennessee is that everyone's like, cheering. Whether it's the story of Kim Caldwell having her baby coming back on the sideline, whether it's Talisha Cooper just being, reviving her career and becoming this breakout star for Tennessee, maybe it is the platoon subbing, but everyone's like, what is this and how long can Tennessee sustain it? And mind you, only still a few people have been able to see that. Imagine once that gets to the national stage in the tournament, like what that will look like. But there seems to be this now excitement for Tennessee and I feel like that might translate to SEC recruiting because of course LSU and South Carolina have been running the table, I would say, in the SEC in terms of being able to get those big time recruits. Chantelle, how much do you think that where Tennessee is this year and how they've been performing can impact how they're seen by the next classes coming in?
- [35:50]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, you can look at their recruiting class for the 2025 group and say it's going really well. They have five top 100 players, two top 15 players. There's a bunch of programs out there that would do anything to have a class like that. You're losing, obviously, a lot of talent. Jewel Spears, Samara Spencer are both going to be gone. Sarah Puckett, Jillian Hollingshed, so you're losing some key players for this team. But Talasia Cooper is back. Ruby Whitehorn will be back. And so you're building something. And I think this is also a program that we're going to see utilize the transfer portal quite a bit. That was something that Kim Caldwell wanted to do coming in last year because, you know, putting together this team, she wasn't sure what it was going to look like. I think we'll still see that moving forward. I think, again, with the exception of a few schools, you're going to have to use the portal well moving forward in women's college basketball to succeed. But it's interesting because you look at a team like Tennessee that, you know, no one on their team plays more than 25 minutes game. And there are a lot of players in the country that if you're a top 10 player, like, I don't want that. I want to play 34 minutes game. Like, I want to take every shot. Like, maybe not every player. Right. But there's a lot of players that want a larger role within a team than that. But she's kind of pushing back against that. And I had someone ask me recently, do you think four years from now this is really going to sustain? Is Tennessee in this era of player empowerment, player movement, going to be able to sustain a team where you come in and you say starters are going to change from game to game. It's going to be based on the stats from the previous game. So it's like, what have you done for me recently? You're not going to play more than 25 minutes a game. You're going to be subbed in and out like crazy. Like what that does for the flow of certain players games, it requires you to adjust to her style of play, not to sort of bring what you do well within that. Right. It's not like, what I do well is what I'm going to do. It's what you do well within that system. And they were saying, is this sustainable? And I was like, well, South Carolina's done a pretty good job without playing. Obviously, that freshie class, the starters played a ton. But you've seen South Carolina And Dawn Staley, in the this same era of player empowerment and player movement, be able to establish a program where it's like, you might be a top four player in the country. You're going to come here as a freshman and sit on the bench. You're going to come here as a sophomore and play like eight minutes a game, and you're going to like it. And then by your senior year, you're going to be an All American and you're going to win a few national titles and then you're going to go into the wnba, even if you're never a starter here. And so I think, you know, contrary to how we think of what it takes to be successful as an individual player in the sport, in this team sport, I think there are programs that have found other ways to do it. The question is, will Tennessee be one of those programs? Right. Like to compare Tennessee to South Carolina at this point, I'm not doing that in terms of programs. I'm saying in terms of their system, in terms of getting players to accept roles that maybe are smaller than what they would have expected elsewhere and that other programs can recruit against you with. Like, you can go to Tennessee and play 20 minutes game, or you can come here maybe another SEC school and play 32 minutes a game and start every game as a freshman. So I think it's, you know, sort of that push and pull of like, they're definitely going to be swimming upstream in some ways against other opponents, especially in the sec. But what we've seen so far, how quickly players have taken to it, how. How much success, even in their losses, they've had some good losses, but they also just beat UConn, like, what it has done to sort of reinvigorate the fan base. And again, Tennessee, as well as these other two programs we're talking about, like, they have the benefit of history on their side. Like, they're always going to be able to point to the history and like, as the pedigree, the history, like Tennessee could be bad for like 20 years. When my kid is in high school, say they're getting recruited for college sports, probably not going to happen, but say they are. And it's like Tennessee comes around. It's like Pat Summit, like Tennessee Summit Blues. Like, that means something to me. And so you still sort of have this capturable audience in terms of the parent that still it might mean something to. Even if during that child's lifetime they haven't been super, super relevant. And I'm not saying that's how Tennessee is going to be. But I think they have a real opportunity here to, you know, what the recent history has looked like. Not as successful elsewhere it would be, but at Tennessee, not as successful. They have a huge opportunity here in the next few years to be back in the Final Four, I think.
- [40:12]
Kim Mulkey
Wow. I mean, that is a bold prediction, but I kind of like it. I was going to say Chantel, I just look forward in like, you know, more than a decade that hopefully we'll see if Kim Caldwell is still coaching and we'll check back in with you about your child's recruiting process. And I look forward to. Maybe Zena will have that conversation then and see what, what Tennessee was selling to you back then. But I mean, I think the thing, you make a really good point about the kind of difference between South Carolina and LSU and the kind of recruiting upstream and the, you know, coaches maybe saying, well, you might only play 20 minutes here, but there is also so much like, like power in clarity of identity. Right. If you're a recruit, like, you know how a team is going to play, I mean, it can be really dangerous.
- [40:52]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, right.
- [40:53]
Kim Mulkey
There's, there's no surprises and like, you know, you kind of know what you're getting into, you know what you're signing up for. And in a system that they play, like one of the potential benefits is you might not necessarily need the five star recruit or the best player at every position to achieve success. Right. And so you can think about like, like, you know, are there players who fit a system or who you can get the most out of, who might have been historically under recruited or underutilized at their past institutions that you can now bring in and say, like, we're going to get the best out of you. Like I would expect that's how kind of they operate in the transfer portal like we've seen and like I would expect going forward, like, they're not just going to go after, you know, the biggest names. They're going to go after players that they think that if we get in our system, we can utilize really well because we know how we want to play. It's obviously dangerous if you don't have success. But I do think you make a great point too, that them having success right now early on really does set a strong foundation for years to come. And then you back on top of it, the history, like those are two potentially like, really like pieces of a winning formula. And it's why, you know, I had an audible reaction as you said, they could be back in the final Four. Over this next couple of years. But it's not a crazy prediction. When you step back and you think about like, like you step back and think about it. And if you also throw on top, like in a one game scenario. We see this in men's college basketball and in women's college basketball, teams that play a different style, you have one day to prepare. You have, you know, three or four days at most to prepare in between rounds, doing something very different, zagging when everyone zigs. Like, there's real advantage in a single elimination tournament to doing that. That's the kind of also style that sets them up. And we see teams all the time, even historic powers. I mean, and I know we're going to talk about another. So maybe I'm transitioning in a symperfly, but like Ohio State beating UConn, right, a couple years ago in the NCAA tournament, Ohio State's ball pressure and their press throwing off UConn in the like, quick turnaround scenario, like, there's a real advantage there. And that's how you saw power like UConn go down in a not Final Four round a few years back. That's the kind of thing you could definitely foresee happening with an opponent playing Tennessee, whether it's this year or in the next couple.
- [43:02]
Ben Pickman
I think one of the surprising things about Tennessee success this year is just with that system that they play how fast it is. Like, we're seeing a group that has been well conditioned this year for that, right? Like, imagine if players have been conditioned like this. Like, this is a team that runs maybe four miles in practice. Like, they run for everything. I was at practice and I was like trying to take notes of like, you run for a turnover, you run if you don't close out hard enough, you run. If you don't box out, I don't know why that person is running. I don't know why that person is running. And I asked Kim afterwards, I was like giving her my list and I was like, why was this player running at that point? And she was like, oh, I just wanted them to like, you run so much at Tennessee. And the speed and intensity they're playing with right now in that flow, like it is with eight months of conditioning. Imagine what players who, if they can keep them in the system for three or four years, like when you have that base of conditioning for three or four years and you're playing with that, what that means. So I think it's a program that if they can keep players for multiple years, if they can sustain this level of success, you know, four years down the road, that's where I really think we'll sort of see the fruits of this labor pay off.
- [44:08]
Chantelle Jennings
This is really interesting. Also, Chantelle, I appreciate you breaking down the identity aspect, because I think that that is a really great point. When you're getting recruited and you come into a program and you know what it is, you know what to expect. The moments in which players end up transferring or players end up having less than careers, careers that were definitely less than what was anticipated, et cetera, is usually from. They came into a program thinking it was going to be one way, thinking they were going to contribute in a particular way, and it was not the case. And so when you come in and you know it's going to be a girl, be humble, sit down type of program, you know, okay, all right. I know what to expect in terms of my platoon subbing. I know what to expect in terms of my conditioning. I know what to expect in practice. I know what to expect in general, rather than thinking I have to come in and say, I want it all. You know, I deserve it all. This is. This is my type of thing. Now, Tennessee is a very interesting conversation within the two that we've already spoken about. Stanford, top of their game, having an off year. Tennessee, technically still the top of their game for the last few seasons, but even rising back to the top, top of their game. Right? And then you've got this one other program called UConn. Now, UConn has been consistently great for decades. Like, there's not been really an off year. And I know, Ben, you just referenced that, that loss in the NCAA tournament to Ohio State, but still making the tournament, being ranked highly as a seed. UConn feels like they're coasting right now. And they feel like, for me, it's not going to change much because even when Paige Becker is graduating, Sarah Strong is still there. They still got some solid talent consistently coming in. The only thing that could be an X factor is Gino Oriemma potentially retiring. But we don't know where that's at. So let's set it up really quickly. I want to do the same thing that we did for the other two schools. Chantelle, I'll start with you. When you think of UConn, what comes to mind?
- [46:23]
Ben Pickman
Championships. I think that's the one. You know, no one, no coach in college basketball, men's or women's, has won as many games as Gina Oriemma. No team in women's basketball, as many national titles as UConn with 11. They literally, when you go into their practice gym, they have a chair from every Final Four. They've been at that sort of just as this ultimate flex. Like, you know, some. Some programs have chairs that read the program name. This one is like, Tampa. Whatever year it was, you know, it's like, oh, cool, I'll sit in the. I'll sit in the 2000 and pick your year, right? Because they've made the final four 23 times. Like, and. And the loss that Ben referenced that Ohio State lost, it's the one time they haven't gotten to the Final Four in the last decade. So I think when we talk about sustained success, it's UConn, right? Like, of late, there are other programs that have maybe won at a higher level. South Carolina comes to mind in terms of national championships. Like, UConn hasn't won a national championship since 2016, which, again, for any other program in the country, if you're like, oh, it's been less than a decade since we won a national championship, most programs would take that. At UConn, that is a really long drought. But again, it's. UConn is different. Tennessee is different. Stanford is different. Like, these programs that we're talking about, because they're blue bloods. They're different. The standard and the expectation is different there.
- [47:45]
Chantelle Jennings
With that said, Ben, I am curious of your thoughts on this drought, because when we just talked about Tennessee being middle of the pack, in the top 25, not necessarily making it to the Final Four, not making it back to, you know, the dominance that they had under the PAT summit years, for UConn, it's winning a championship. Not having won a championship for the last eight years is a drought. Like, that feels different. That feels like on another elevated level of expectation. Like, what? How do you assess that?
- [48:15]
Kim Mulkey
No, I mean, it definitely does. I mean, you think about it, if they make the Final Four this year, it will be 24 Final Fours in 36 seasons. Like, every, you know, two of your last two of every three, they're making a Final Four, which is like, that's crazy. I mean, how many programs have never even made two, let alone two every three years, right? Over your last three plus decades. I think the thing that makes the UConn drought so interesting is obviously it coincides with this period in women's basketball more broadly, where so many other programs are elevating and rising and the talent level seemingly is going up in a way that it never has before, right? And so, like, yeah, they've still been this dominant power, but it's like they've come up short. But they're playing the South Carolinas this year. Like, they could very well make the Final Four, but it also wouldn't be surprising if they made the Final Four. And again, they lost in the Final Four. Like, you know, in past years, in past decades, even if you were a five star, you were just going to UConn, right? Like, you were, they were recruiting you. And if they were recruiting you and you were one of the, the best players in the country, you were going full stop. Right now that is no longer the case. There are other programs, not just South Carolina, but South Carolina obviously being one of them, that like, there's real competition in the marketplace. We see five stars and four star recruits, like, go elsewhere. And so other teams are just better. The level of competition has increased. And it's why, like, yes, they've had this crazy drought, but they are almost, they are also almost beholden to their past and their expectation. Like, as you said, Xena, everyone would take UConn's resume over the last three plus decades. No program wouldn't. And so, like, sometimes you almost hear that, like when Gino Oriemma reflects on his teams too. Like, he to me, also feels like a realist about the, what is going on in the sport and the kind of acknowledgment that, yes, I know, like, we have had this history of just winning national championships seemingly every year, or at least like every couple years or every cycle of recruitment. But like, you have to look around the landscape because it's not, it's like, it's not us, it's them. Right? Like, and that's kind of the perspective I fall back on about UConn. Like, it's not as much about what they aren't doing, it's more about what everyone else is doing in my mind.
- [50:39]
Chantelle Jennings
And what everyone else is doing is getting better. You're absolutely right. You hit the nail on the head. Like, the parody is real. The parody is here. And Chantel, when you look at some of these losses that they've had, you know, the LSU close loss, the Notre Dame loss, like these, these losses that they've had this season, and particularly this most recent one, Tennessee taking down UConn, are there cracks in the foundation? Is, is the mix that UConn has had for so many years that have created and baked a perfect cake of championships, is there a flaw in the recipe?
- [51:15]
Ben Pickman
I think you look at those three losses they've had this year and to me Two trends stick out. One is that they've shot really badly from three point in all three of those games, which is not something you. Again, you think of UConn, you think of really solid, mechanical, good shooters who hit their shots when they need to. That has not been the case in those three losses. And part of that is because I don't think they have the inside presence that they've had of years past. Even in years that they haven't made. You know, I think this is such a Yukon thing to say. I think fee only won one national championship while she was at UConn. I think she made three of their final fours, but only made one, only one national championship.
- [51:52]
Chantelle Jennings
But like in terms of those one.
- [51:54]
Ben Pickman
Those post players, when you think of, you know, the Tina Charles is of the world, the Stewies of the world, like they have so many all Americans. Like, I'm missing 20 people here, right? But like, even of late, like the Aaliyah Edwards dorky Juhas, like these players that sort of anchor the inside, even when the bench was short, you know, even when they were transferring in, even when they had injuries elsewhere, like they had someone inside like Paige playing the four last year, they just don't have that inside presence this year. Ice Brady hasn't sort of panned out the way they thought she would this year. Jan Alfie, same thing. And so you just don't have that inside presence. And then in those big games, when you don't have the three point shooting as well, what do you have? And so I think that has sort of contributed to the losses, but it also sort of feels like again, this is such a UConn conversation. UConn is one player away from that not being the case in those games. Right. You think back to the transfer portal season last year. They were a finalist for Reagan Beers who ended up at Oklahoma. I think we can all agree that if Reagan Beers ends up at UConn, those three games probably look pretty different this year. Like if she's a. If she's wearing a UConn jersey instead of an Oklahoma jersey. Like this is a different team this year. And if, you know, Reagan is playing alongside Sarah Strong and Paige Beckers and KK Arnold and Az Fudd, like it just looks different. And so this is a one player difference situation. But because it's UConn, three losses sort of feels like, oh my God, what's going on? Is the foundation crumbling under their feet? But it's like this is still a team that sort of feels like one player away from Those three games being really, really different. But then to go back to what Ben was saying, it's also a team that, because of what they've done before, you look at. I don't write them out of the Final Four yet at this point. We saw what Paige Beckers did last year when she threw this team on her back, and I had them losing to USC in the Elite Eight. I was like, there's no way they can get back past juju and this team. They've got, like, three healthy players. How can they do it? And yet they get to the Final Four again. And so, you know, I haven't written them out of that grouping quite yet, but, yeah, I think it's a rising tide of women's basketball. They're still in it. And at this point, it sort of feels like they're one post player away from, you know, being two and one in those games or three and zero in those games.
- [54:01]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, we just talked about recruitment for both Sanford and Tennessee, both of them having decent classes coming in. It seems like it's always going to be a obvious answer that UConn's gonna have a strong recruiting class because of the history and people wanting to be a part of that pedigree. But. But as we've also discussed is that there's parity. Other schools are getting really good recruits as well. And then there's. There's a level of teams that say, let's go team up somewhere else and go kick UConn's butt. Like, I'm tired of them being the top team in the country. Like, Ben, when you think about UConn's future in terms of trying to regain their dominance, this is also going to kind of transition us to other schools that are coming into that blue blood conversation. But can UConn ever get back to where they were in terms of just consistent domination on the national level?
- [54:49]
Kim Mulkey
I don't really think so. But, like, where they were was just pencil them into the national championship every single year. And I think, honestly, if you're, like, giving Gino Oriema a true serum and being like, can you guys get back to that? He would probably also tell you the same thing. Like, that we can still be a Final Four contender year after year. We can still make the Final Four year after year, but, like, the game has changed. There are other power players in the sport, you know, and they are still. Yeah. Who. Who can you really, at this point, pencil into a national championship year after year? I mean, I think we're. We're seeing it this year, even with South Carolina. Like, I know they're another program that, you know, has probably pushed their way into this conversation some. But, like, they've reached the point where when they lose in the regular season like they did to Texas, it's news. It's this streak of 57 SEC games ending. Like, that's suddenly like this buzzy story. But also, like, if South Carolina were to drop a game in the Elite Eight, we would be surprised. But it could happen, right? Like, it could definitely happen. And it's kind of the same thing with UConn, right? Like, we've just reached this point where maybe it's just this year, but I also think it's this point in the sport, frankly. Like, you just can't pencil teams into the national championship the way you maybe did when even 5, 6, 10, 15 years ago. And I think UConn is just a, you know, it's a product of that circumstance.
- [56:08]
Chantelle Jennings
I'm happy you brought up South Carolina because as we think about these three teams, Stanford, Tennessee, UConn, these blue bloods that have dominated women's college basketball for so long, it is true that you can't pencil them in in the. In the same way. You can't guarantee that they're going to get the best class. You can't guarantee that they're going to win the high profile, big time matchups that are on the national stages. There are too many other schools that are in that conversation now, South Carolina obviously being one of them. I want to ask both of you, what are your thoughts on how long do you have to have sustained excellence to be a part of this blue blood, true blood kind of conversation? Is it a decade? Is it multiple decades? What do you guys think?
- [56:48]
Ben Pickman
I think it depends when you're talking about it, because it's like right now you look across the country and you're like, who are these programs? And it's like South Carolina is sort of in that class to me right now. They've been to six Final Fours since 2015. They've won three national titles in that time. So they're batting.500 in getting to the Final Four and winning a national title. Not bad. Everything about this program, like Ben said, you know, could they lose in the Elite Eight? Have they shown, you know, this isn't the undefeated team of last season? Yes. But everything they've shown makes me feel like again, they have a path to the Final Four this year. They have a potential path to the national championship. Absolutely. I think there's a lot of teams in that conversation, though, more than ever, maybe. But I think, you know, a few more years of this with South Carolina. Like, they have three national championships to Tennessee's eight to UConn's 11, but Stanford has three. Like, South Carolina has as many national titles since 2015 as Stanford has in its history. And so I think in this moment, it sort of feels like the length, like the tail of South Carolina's history is not as long as stanford, Tennessee or UConn's. However, I think 20 years from now, when we look back at this era of, like, if we think of Blue Bloods in terms of, like, what were the programs that were setting the bar, that were defining what it means to be elite in women's basketball. Yeah, South Carolina is sort of in that group right now for me, right now.
- [58:09]
Chantelle Jennings
What about you, Ben?
- [58:10]
Kim Mulkey
Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. They are definitely in that group. And, you know, I've been wondering since that loss to Texas, would Dawn Staley have traded her team winning for an Eagles loss, or is she actually happy with how that played out? Like, would she have rather the Eagles win the Super super bowl and her team loses on the same day? I think that might actually be the answer because it is just a regular season game versus Super Bowl. But I digress. I mean, one of the schools that is really interesting to me in this conversation is Notre Dame. And Neil Ivey is still just kind of getting settled in compared to some of the other coaches we've talked about, you know, the Pat Summits, the Gina Oremas at her institution. Right. This is only her fifth year as the head coach of Notre Dame, but Notre Dame is really interesting because, like, under Muffett, McGraw, especially over her final decade with the program, like, they would just make the National Final, like, year after year after year after year, and obviously winning in 2017, 2018. What is so interesting about what's going on now is it seems like if Neal Ivey is going to stay, you know, be the coach not only of the present, but of the future, you know, you're kind of building a lineage with not only one coach, Right. You have Muffett, who takes over in the late 80s and stays all the way until, you know, just a couple years ago, 19, 20. But you might also now have another coach who is the figurehead of a program. And when we think about these Blue Bloods, these staple programs in both the men's and women's side, so often it is because of a coach that has been there for two, three decades, and by no means. Am I saying that Neil Ivey needs to just, like, pencil herself in to living in South Bend for the next two or three decades? Right. But I think, like, they're really interesting, interesting potential example of a program that could be next. Let them make a Final Four first under Neil Ivey before we pencil them in for, like, the next dynasty of college basketball. But it's rare, especially on the women's side, for us to have these transitions from one coach to the next or one, like, legacy coach to the next. As we talked about with Tennessee and as we kind of talked about too, with Stanford, Notre Dame isn't going through that lull right now. And, you know, if they can sustain this and make Final Fours and. And do this for years to come, like, they are a really different kind of example of how a bluebud emerged because it's not just one coach, it's with two.
- [60:19]
Chantelle Jennings
Wow. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah.
- [60:20]
Ben Pickman
And I guess when we've talked about coaches or programs staying within sort of the coaching tree and hiring within the tree, like, Notre Dame is a part of that. Right. When we think about the Kate Pays, Kelly Harper's of the world, it's like, yeah, Neil Ivey is a part of that Muffet McGraw tree, a part of that lineage in sustaining that success. And, you know, whenever it is that Chino Oriema retires, like, there are places, players, former players of his who've become coaches that I think, you know, will obviously be in the running for that UConn job. I think, you know, another program we have to mention, if we're talking about, you know, not right now, not yet, but 20 years from now, maybe. I think USC, we've talked about the SC on the east Coast. Let's talk about the USC on the West Coast. Like, to me, they're sort of in this interesting position because they had so much success during those Cheryl Miller years in the 80s. Like, this is a program that was sort of at the peak that set the bar once before, went through a long lull, and has come back under Lindsey Gottlieb and juju Watkins. And when you think about all of the pieces that sort of make a program elite, Lindsey Gottlieb has sort of proven that so far in a pretty short amount of time to be able to get a recruiting coup like juju Watkins, to keep the number one player in the country home at a time when it's like, what did Lindsey Gottlieb have to show for the program? Like, hey, we just lost to ucla, but come here and, like, be a part of rebuilding. You know, it takes special players and an authentic and genuine sort of bond between coach and player to sell that right. Like, you got to really trust what they're saying because it's like, you get. You know, I guess now you can. You can have two because of the transfer portal, but, like, you get one shot to make the right choice in college now you get two shots. But with her continued recruiting, with them moving into the Big Ten, being on national tv, more, playing in these huge media markets, USC feels like another team that, as the tide rises across college basketball, USC is right there right now. They haven't won a national championship in a few decades, though, so I'm not saying they're a part of that conversation right now. Like, 20 years from now, we might look back and be like, ah, Juju had a good run. Like, yeah, but they have to win multiple times. They have to get to the Final Four multiple times. But everything that has sort of been put on the table thus far says to me that. That if things continue, like, they could be a part of that conversation.
- [62:37]
Chantelle Jennings
I'm really happy you brought up usc, because that was definitely going to be one of those schools that I'm like, who's on the cusp, right? Who's. Who have made some splashes in the pan to show us that maybe they could get there. One more question before we close this out. We've been talking about schools as a concept, and I love that we've been framing it as like a school with one coach or. And Neil Ivy kind of being the aberration from that. That being the second coach in that dynasty at Notre Dame. A little bit. I can't ignore Kim Mulkey. Kim Mulkey at Baylor, Kim Mulkey at lsu. Kim Mulkey as in her own ecosystem of winning, of sustained excellence. Thoughts on that before we close out?
- [63:15]
Ben Pickman
I just sent to the group chat. I can't ignore Kim Mulkey. We should put that on, like, an athletic women's basketball show podcast T shirt.
- [63:22]
Chantelle Jennings
We can't. We can't ignore Kim Mulkey.
- [63:24]
Ben Pickman
Put that up there with Save it for Arkansas. Like, I can't ignore Kim Mulkey. Yeah, I mean, I think that's an interesting. You know, there aren't very many coaches in any sport that have sort of left one team or one franchise and gone to another and won national championships or professional championships, world championships, whatever you choose to call it. Like, that is very, very challenging to do. I think what Kim Mulkey is currently doing at LSU is really impressive because she is not only getting really impressive recruiting classes for freshmen, she is also hitting the transfer portal hard. And I think to be able to do both of those things really speaks to sort of the allure of LSU right now. Because, again, we've talked about what a freshman might want, what an incoming freshman might want, and, you know, this isn't a situation where it's like, come in and you got minutes here. It's like, come in. But also, no, because I'm not going to, like, bullshit you at all, because I don't think Kim Mulkey does that with her recruits. You know, like, they're going to hit the transfer portal because that is how they've won there. Like, you look at the players that they're winning with right now, the players that they've won with before, Angel, Reese, like, those are players who came in through the transfer portal. And so I don't think she makes any bones about it that she is going to, you know, bring in. You know, when we talk about sort of the dual stream of talent in college programs right now, LSU is one that is having a huge amount of success with both.
- [64:42]
Kim Mulkey
I mean, you know, with Kimoki, too, as part of that success is you're getting authenticity, right? It goes back to some of what we talked about in the Kim Caldwell, Tennessee conversation of, like, you know what you're getting, and you seem like, you know what you're getting when you go to lsu. The point you raised those, you know, is a really good one. Like, oftentimes when we think about these dynastic programs, it is because of the coaches who have been there at just one time and they choose, like, one stop to make their home. It's why Kim Mulkey's decision to leave Baylor and go to LSU was so newsworthy at the time, right? Because it was like Baylor felt like the kind of place that, you know, yes, she had, you know, played at Louisiana Tech and, you know, is a. Is a product of that state and playing basketball there and had a tremendous career there as a player. But, like, Baylor had kind of been her home. And people very much viewed, like her, Baylor as her home for not just the present, but also the future. And it's why when she goes to LSU and has a lot of success, like, that was so newsworthy, too, because, like, she's doing it suddenly at two institutions. I guess the question is, like, the sustainability of how many years is LSU gonna do it and at what degree? But you're Right. Like, we probably should have had them in this conversation. To me, you know, maybe the comparison. And I do think she probably had more success at Baylor than this person is like Roy Williams on the men's side kind of going from Kansas. And I'm by no means a Kansas men's basketball historian. Like, go talk to CJ Moore for that. But like, someone like Roy Williams going from Kansas to UNC in the early 2000s, like, yeah, UNC was his alma mater, but he also had a ton of success at Kansas. He won more than 400 games there. They won a whole bunch of conference titles like that, to me, feels like the lineage. And UNC obviously is a blue blood, and Kansas is a blue blood. So, like, you know, maybe that's also an exception to the rule. Just like Kim Mulkey is so often the exception to the rule of so much in college basketball.
- [66:37]
Chantelle Jennings
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm happy you mentioned because in North Carolina, when you think of unc, you think of coaching Williams, you. You think of Coach Roy and that. And I always forget that he was at Kansas until Kansas ends up in a national championship. And I see him sitting there and I'm like, oh, wait, he also was here. He has some ties to this. This institution. Okay, guys, this was a fascinating conversation. I am so grateful that you guys know as much as you do of all these schools in terms of, like, their past, but also being able to kind of predict where these schools are headed in the larger scheme game of women's college basketball. The biggest takeaway here, though, is one, in the midst of these big time dynasties, like, one year isn't going to kill you. One year isn't going to kill you. Number two, it's clear that dropping off from going into the championship every single year to getting to the Final Four or just getting to the elite Eight, like, not a crazy drop off, but it depends in whose eyes. That standard of excellence for certain schools is so high that you need to get to those levels in order to continue to sustain it. And then three, there's a lot coming up. There's a lot of schools that are going to be testing those blue bloods and testing just how much they can stick and stay in those positions of, you know, storied excellence, and in the history of women's college basketball, who are the best programs? That narrative is starting to mold a little bit differently, which is super exciting. All right, thank you so much for everyone listening today. Again, hit that subscribe button button to this podcast, wherever you get it. And also Leave us comments. Let us know what you guys want us to talk about. This was a really cool conversation. So thank you Ben, thank you Chantelle for all of the insights. On behalf of Chantelle and Ben, I'm Xena Keda thanking you for your ear and encouraging you to Guys, keep watching, keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. Until next time.
- [68:32]
Ben Pickman
Foreign.
- [68:38]
Zena Keda
As we head into the playoffs, it's safe to assume there will be a few calls made by the refs that will be hard to accept. But you know what isn't hard to accept? Discover. Believe it or not, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard that right, 99%. So make a good call for your wallet and get discovered. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discover.com creditcard this podcast.
- [69:04]
Aura Advertiser
Is brought to you by Aura. Imagine waking up to find your bank account drained, bills for loans you never took out, a warrant for your arrest. All because someone stole your identity. Hackers aren't waiting. Why are you? That's why we're thrilled to partner with aura. Your personal data is a goldmine for hackers, and Aura helps lock it down. Aura monitors the Dark Web, blocks data brokers from selling your information. Includes a VPN for private browsing and a PASSW manager to secure your accounts before criminals break in. For a limited time, Aura is offering our listeners a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for free@aura.com safety that's aura.com safety to sign up and start protecting yourself and your loved ones. That's a U r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.
- [69:56]
Chantelle Jennings
ACAST Powers the world's best podcasts.
- [70:00]
Ben Pickman
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [70:05]
Kim Mulkey
Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal.
- [70:20]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
- [70:26]
Chantelle Jennings
Are you afraid of it? Of death?
- [70:28]
Ben Pickman
Well, I don't know.
- [70:29]
Kim Mulkey
I think about it all the time.
- [70:30]
Chantelle Jennings
How are we here already?
- [70:32]
Kim Mulkey
Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription. Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF.
- [70:47]
Ben Pickman
Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.