← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Team USA Lineup Roulette & the Future of 3x3
00:54:33
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- [00:01]
Zena Kaeda
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- [00:12]
Ben Pickman
Sometimes 25.
- [00:13]
Zena Kaeda
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- [01:20]
Chantelle Jennings
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- [01:42]
Ben Pickman
There to watch em.
- [01:43]
Chantelle Jennings
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- [02:50]
Sabrina Merchant
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- [04:55]
Ben Pickman
For the athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by AT&T. Welcome back to the show folks. I know you guys have had so much fun listening in as we've had Chantelle Jennings on the ground in Paris in Lille going around watching our 5 on 5 basketball. We actually have her back in the building as she is preparing to go to a three on three game. We'll be talking a little bit about that. But first we have to talk about the five on five teams that has made the quarterfinals. So I've got Chantelle in the building. Talk a little bit about that, as well as Ben Pickman and Chantel before we dive into the basketball. Have you made your way to Paris? How has it been going from Lille to Paris and finally getting to be in arenas for other sports?
- [05:57]
E
I'm finally in Paris. It was very exciting to like take an Uber over the Seine and be like, I'm here finally. Everyone's been hanging out without me and now I get to join the party. I have been all over the country. I went this way past week down to Nice as well as Marseille, which for those who are familiar with French geography, it's the very northern part of the country to the very southern part of the country. And so I've seen a lot of France in a very short amount of time. I was down there to cover the Canadian women's soccer team. And then in the middle, I actually covered the team all around Finals for women's gymnastics in Bersey arena, which is where the quarterfinals and onward will be played for women's basketball. So we can get to that. But Xena, I'm loving France. It is very beautiful.
- [06:40]
Ben Pickman
I love that you love this first of all too. My mother's French side is from Marseille. So I love that you came went back to the roots for us. A little bit southern part of France is absolutely gorgeous, folks, go visit. But I think the most that I love is that you're being able to experience the other sports. Because when I tell you I am at home becoming a coach for all the other sports, particularly gymnastics, I have never screamed so loud for people I do not know. And watching that all around women's final and it was so dope that you got to cover it. If you guys are subscribed to the Athletic, which we hope you are, definitely go read Chantel's coverage of that. And also just seeing the others that, you know, think about Neymar from Algeria, who got the first African medal for Algeria and was supposed to compete under France, but after gotten injured, was basically told like, you're not gonna be able to compete for us. And she went to Algeria, represented Algeria, got a medal. Then there's Rebecca Andrade. I talked about her in the last pod. Absolutely showing up the goat out of Brazil. You know, I just. I'm overwhelmed. So I'm so. It's so cool that you've been able to see all of that on top of some really dope basketball. And that's been, I think, the part that, you know, some of us are kind of like, okay, we gotta get a challenge for the 5 on 5 team. We gotta get some legitimate competition in the building for them because they've been winning handedly. Right. It's now, what, 58 in a row that they've won consecutively?
- [08:12]
E
Yep.
- [08:13]
Ben Pickman
That's crazy. So it's a lot of games. A lot of games in a row. A lot of games in a row. So I want to backtrack a little bit first and look at their last game against Germany because that first half was pretty competitive. And I would say that between Belgium and Germany, you're starting to see a little bit of the competition heat up. But then the 5 on 5 team just goes ham in the second half. So let's talk a little bit about some of the things that the 5 on 5 team can work on as they're, you know, working on their challengers. And it keeps. The challenge keeps ticking up. Number one rotations. Do you feel like Cheryl Reeve has had an opportunity to tinker with these rotations and figure out what she likes on the floor? When or does it go back to what we talked about before of this is going to be dependent on who is out on the floor versus an identity for the United States?
- [09:10]
E
I think most of us who were in sort of the media cohort when kp, Jackie and Asia were finally on the floor together, I think we all kind of looked around at each other and we were like, this is the first time the Aces core has been out there together. Right. Like, we haven't seen this yet. Right. It took three games, but here we are sort of where I thought we might get earlier. You know, we've heard Cheryl talk about the importance of having teammates and that sort of chemistry on the team. With Stewie and Sabrina together knowing where someone likes the ball. Same thing with Asia and her three teammates on the team. We have multiple Phoenix Mercury members on this team. So like they have talked a lot about. With a team like this, when you don't have the prep time, you don't have the Runway to really build sort of that cohesive 12 member team that we saw maybe for like the 1996 Olympic Games. For something like this, that value of teammates together is really important. And so I actually thought we would see the Aces core out. They're in game one. Like, this is something that it feels like is really obvious. You have this current dynasty in the wnba. And a third of that team is sitting on your bench. 80% of that starting lineup is. Is sitting on your bench. So maybe put them in there together. And so we finally saw that against Germany, and I thought it was really interesting because, you know, they have been challenged. I thought Germany challenged them. I thought Belgium really challenged them. They were down after the first quarter against Germany and this Aces group, and. And there were other post players who filtered in. They were really the group that led the runs that helped them in the second quarter regain their footing. They went on a 177 run after Asia was inserted back into the lineup with Jackie and KP. And then in the third quarter, same thing, those three plus other post players filtering in went on a 27 run. And I think what's really interesting about this is in the post game, I was asking Kelsey Plum about this, and I think she thought I was, like, trying to, like, have a gotcha question. Because Team USA is so, like, Team USA focused. Like, they're not the name on the back of their jersey. It is very much the culture of this program is the name on the front of the jersey. They are not their WNBA teams back home. They're not their college teams from a few years back. Like, they are Team usa. And so I was asking her about, like, you know, you finally got that Aces core out there. And she looked at me, she goes, you're funny. You're funny. And I was like, I'm not. Like, I'm not trying to, like, get a gotcha here. It truly is like, how long have you guys been waiting to, like, have that group out there? Because the chemistry instantly changed. The offense flowed better, the defense was more active. They got out into transition faster, and Cheryl was able to bring in BG at Stewie Asia, like, filtering in those post players. Nafisa, like, that group was really, really productive. And it was just a very noticeable difference. And so it was interesting, though, because everyone sort of deflected when you were asking them about the impact of the Aces on this team, it was a deflection of, like, no, everyone's ready when your number's called. You just have to step up. The strength of this team is the depth. All of that is true. But I think we also cannot deny the fact that when you had Kelsey Plumb, Asia Wilson, and Jackie Young on the floor together, that's when things really started going for Team usa.
- [12:13]
Ben Pickman
And it's interesting. You're right. We haven't really seen more than two pairings go off throughout these tournament. Games I specifically remember against Japan, Sabrina and Stewie going off together, and Chelsea and Asia going off together. So you seeing a lot more pairings. And the game against Germany felt very distinctly the Aces game and particularly Jackie Young's game. Now, this is someone that did not play significant minutes in the two other games and was coming off the bench and finding herself towards the end of quarters being able to come in and not make as much of an impact as I'm sure everyone that knows Jackie Young's game knows she's capable of doing. The physicality with which she played yesterday fit really well against Germany. After seeing yesterday's performance, do you imagine that coach Reeve is going to find some more minutes for Jackie Young?
- [13:08]
E
So I would be surprised if. If Kelsey and Jackie aren't. I mean, Kelsey was the last one off the bench against Germany. Like, everyone was filtering through and. And KP was the last player to get off the bench for them. I don't think she got in until that second quarter when they really went on that 17 and seven run, if I remember correctly. But yeah, I think, you know, Cheryl Reeves said, Jackie has been playing really well in practice. She earned these minutes and then she made the most of these minutes. And I think the same can be said of Kelsey. And so I would be very surprised if we don't see those two come off the bench faster and those two together come off the bench faster, you know, moving on from the quarterfinals against Nigeria onward, because it was just their impact on the game and specifically the way Cheryl wants to play. She wants a team that's really active defensively. Seems like one of her frustrations with this group is she made a joke in the post game press conference and was asked about, you know, what adjustments did you make? What did you learn about your team? After sort of Germany got out to a really fast start and she said, oh, that we can actually play defensive schemes. I learned that we can actually play those defensive schemes that coach Joni Taylor's telling them to play. And you know, she is. She is a quick wit to her, I will say that. And so. But I think there was quite a bit of honesty in that. That, like, that was the group that it felt like this team has been wanting to find a defensive identity that's really rooted in, you know, stopping other teams and then getting their offense out from there. And that group again with the big sort of shuffling through and Asia, Jackie and kp, that group, to me, sort of felt like the most Cheryl ish of what we've seen so far. In this tournament.
- [14:44]
F
It's just funny to think about how less than two weeks ago, like, Sabrina and I were talking about how Jackie Young was the last player on this roster and that maybe Sheryl Reeve and her decision of how to use Jackie Young was like the biggest question we had. Right. Jackie Young was the last player to enter during the WNBA All Star Game. She played just 12 minutes in the exhibition against Germany, and it was all in one swoop. And she entered with, you know, two minutes to play in the third quarter and played the remainder of the fourth quarter, too. And so things have really changed as you're talking about. I mean, I would say like in against the Japan game, and, you know, that game was not all that competitive. Show Reef did put out a combination of aces. She did play Gray, Young and Wilson together with Kelsey Plum on the bench. And there was a kind of fun moment where she had those three out there alongside Stewart and Sabrina Unescu. And so it was a kind of New York Liberty, Las Vegas Aces lineup of five. And that was a particularly fun lineup. But at that point, you know, the game was well in hand and Japan was not going to push the United States in any way. But I think you're right, Chantelle, to call out how, you know, she used that lineup in a important moment in a more competitive game. And it obviously played dividends. I guess the thing that I'm, like, still kind of hung up on and I'm wondering if, you know, you got some post game sound on or just had thoughts on from being in the building is, you know, Diana Taurasi and Chelsea Gray, they combine for 12 minutes and 18 seconds against Germany. These are two starters, two, you know, legacy, you know, high impact players, but people who have, you know, foundational parts of Team usa. Obviously, Diana Taurasi's legacy, among others, doesn't need to be said. Like, Jewel Lord was the only other person who played fewer than 10 minutes. No one even else played fewer than 12 minutes. So if you sum their roster, their combined total of 12, their minute total, their combined 12 minutes, you know, is still less than everyone else on the team except for Jewel Lloyd. What did you kind of make of that in the Germany game in a competitive matchup?
- [16:41]
E
So Cheryl was asked in the post game point blank, like, are Chelsea and Diana okay, like, healthy? And she said, yep. And that was kind of it. Like, they're healthy. I think this is a team that's had six practices and so finding the chemistry. And that was from the beginning when I talked to Cheryl before they even Went down to Phoenix for All Star. What she said was, you know, talent is not what's going to win us a gold medal. It's going to be the chemistry of that talent. That's what will win us the gold medal. And I think she has just sort of been looking for that chemistry and those player groupings and what those look like. And again, to go back to the Germany game, I think she found a pretty obvious one. I think those three plus Phil through Biggs was something that really worked for them. And you mentioned Jackie's great play. I think we also need to bring up the fact that her three point shooting was far and away better than any American has shot the ball so far during the tournament. Outside of Jackie on Sunday night against Germany, the Americans have shot like 28% from range. I think there is something to be said about shooting in that size of an arena and the depth perception. And a lot of shooters say that that can sort of impact the way you see the basket. None of the Americans this tournament have said that, but historically people have said that. But I think is also. It bodes well for Team USA and Jackie Young's minute totals moving forward if she's hitting shots like that and if, if this ultimately ends up being the lineup or the rotation that she feels really comfortable with using, especially in tighter games, that will mean fewer minutes, obviously for Chelsea and Diana moving forward.
- [18:14]
Ben Pickman
Well, let's talk about moving forward because now Team USA is going into quarterfinal play, going up against Team Nigeria, who is on a run right now. They've got momentum at their back. Everyone's cheering for them, particularly from the African continent. Believe they're the first team, male or female, to make it to the quarterfinal round of the Olympics. And I'm excited just to watch this matchup. I think for me, there's a lot of players that if you're an American audience watching the wnba, there's gonna be some people, you're like, who are these people that are, you know, putting up some serious buckets? I think, as in Kalu is one of the, the bigger names coming out of Team Nigeria. But before we dive into like kind of the X's and O's of that game, they're changing venues and that can have an impact on, you know, that sixth man feel. You have been hearing just how much the crowds in Leal have been kind of an a sixth woman against Team usa. All the booing, all the kind of making them the. The villain in this story. And now you're going into a smaller venue from what we understand, Chantelle, break down like what this new space is going to be like for the five on five team.
- [19:26]
E
So quarterfinals and onward will be played at Bursi arena, which is sort of your prototypical indoor sports music venue setting. And so it'll feel more typical in terms of what the Team USA is used to from playing back home and in a lot of other venues across the world. What they were playing in in Lille was actually a football stadium or a soccer stadium. And so they had cut the soccer stadium in half. And so the fans were only around 75% of the court. And then basically the media seating was opposite the player benches. And so it was really, really loud in there. And it sat about 25,000 when it was fully packed. And it was loud when it was fully packed. I actually had a few text messages from people I know who are at games that were like, hey, your media section is really killing the wave here because it would like go all the way around and then it gets to the media. None of us would stand up.
- [20:19]
Ben Pickman
Come on.
- [20:19]
E
And then it would keep going around. I know. So at least now the wave will fully go around. Because in Bersi arena, which I was in for the gymnastics all around finals, it'll be fully enclosed. The fans will fully enclose the court. It'll be sort of more of that all around sound that I think players are used to. They won't have to go down from the locker rooms. There was sort of like a staircase to get down to the court. So it'll be a little bit more typical to what they're used to in terms of ambiance, sound, everything that's going on. It'll. It'll just be a little more typical for them. But it does seat 15,000.
- [20:51]
Ben Pickman
I'll miss the stairs.
- [20:52]
E
You will?
- [20:53]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. I will miss the stairs. I felt like they were like God's descending upon the court. I thought it was really cool. I thought it was, it was, it was, it was just like a little bit more fanfare around the whole thing. But 15,000 definitely more typical of like a WNBA setting and just being enclosed upon by the fans. And I think it's just going to get louder and louder from here. But now is the think about what Team USA has to go up against moving forward. We've been talking about the fact there's been some challenges, particularly in the first half, but as soon as Team USA comes out in the second half, they kind of like, remember, oh, wait, wait, wait, we're the best in the world. And they really put together some runs, some streaks and closeout games pretty strongly. What are your thoughts on what Team USA can expect out of a Team Nigeria who has momentum going into this game?
- [21:41]
F
Ben, I mean, can I splash some cold water on this conversation right off the top and say I'm not all that concerned about Team Nigeria if I'm the United States. Like, I get Nigeria is a great story. I mean, their win over Australia to open the tournament, I think was one of the most surprising and impressive results of the entire field so far. Like, I think Australia is obviously a really talented team and they forced 26 turnovers on the whole to pull off that upset. But these are two teams who met back in February. Nigeria and the United States. And the United States won by 54 points in that game. Game in the February contest that they played. And so, you know, yes, the rosters are a little bit different. You know, someone like Ryan Howard and Ariel Atkins, they were on Team USA at that time. They are obviously not on the Olympic roster right now. But for all the kind of, you know, the momentum, you know, how Nigeria has played and pulled off some, you know, impressive performances so far. Like, do I expect a 54 point swing in the quarterfinal here?
- [22:40]
Ben Pickman
No, I get it. I get it. I know. And I think that that's the thing is when you're talking about this Team USA women's side, at least it is. It's a little stagnant right now in the sense of there's not much of a, ah, what can we get hyped for? What can we get amped for? It really just feels as if every single team is an opportunity for Team USA to figure themselves out more so than it is to be some sort of who's a true challenge to our identity and our ability to compete. What is the benefit every single time that Team USA goes up against a team and handedly wins, what do you think that they're learning about themselves or improving upon themselves?
- [23:19]
F
I mean, I think that is the thing that separates Team USA over any other country. It's just the optionality, right? One game can be a Jackie Young game. Another game can be Asia Wilson and Brianna Stewart. Another game can be Kelsey Plum. Another game can be Sabrina Unescu. Like, on any given night, Charl Reeve has the ability to toggle with different lineups, different lineup combinations, you know, elevate different players to roles they haven't been in before. They can play different styles, they can play small, they can play big. We've seen, you know, Alyssa Thomas sometimes play the three We've seen, you know, lineups in which she's moved to the four and some lineups where she's brought the ball at the court and played point guard. Like that is really more than anything else. Other countries on the whole have to play a certain style and they can adjust certain ways and they can adjust some of their lineups and schemes. You know, Australia, again, is someone who has dealt with some foul trouble to their bigs. And so we've seen some players play different roles than we thought heading in. But like on the whole, that is the separator for Team USA that they can shapeshift in a way that other countries can't. And that's the ultimate luxury that they have this cycle. And you know, for the cycles before.
- [24:19]
E
This, I think it's that depth that you're talking about, Ben. I mean that's like we talk about all of the different advantages that Team USA has. And yes, they have the two best players in the world in Asia and Stewie and like that plus other people is just sort of unfair in a way when you, when you look at it like it's. It is the reality of it that like if you put the two best players on the world on the same team, other teams are always going to be the underdogs. And so because of that, every other team needs to play their best. But what happens is it's the depth that you're just talking about right now. Like we've seen sort of those starting fives these first quarters. It's not like Team USA has jumped out to a 30 point lead in these first quarters. Like opposing teams starting fives have hung with or led after the first quarter with Team USA. But it's when you get to that 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, or you know, in the case of Germany, 12, literally Kelsey Plum coming off the bench last. Like Kelsey Plum, if worth looking at her in that Germany game as the 12th man for this team, she is far and away better than any other 12th man in the Olympics. Like it is. That is. That's hilarious to even think of that. Like what her versus another 12th man looks like on any other roster. Like, right. Not even a comparison here. And so it's the depth of Team usa, I think, in addition to the versatility, in addition to Asia and Stewie being sort of like the two headed monster that lead this team and can get it done on both ends of the floor. And the fact that they are such matchup problems like defensively can guard the perimeter and they're not a liability out there offensively, just doing work. This is a team that just has so many advantages. But I do think it's just that depth, when you're looking at it, whoever the 12th best player on this team is, they are far and away better than any other 12th best player in this tournament.
- [26:05]
Ben Pickman
I love that visual that you just gave me of if I put the roster, Team USA roster in any order and I scramble it in any order, and then alongside it, I put another team's roster in their given order from their starters to their 12th, it doesn't matter what order I put Team USA in, that last person is always probably going to be better than that 12th person on another team. Like that is not probably always, always 100%, especially if you're keeping the order of the other team in their depth roster, they're always going to be better. And that is kind of hard to wrap your mind around in the sense that the level of talent on this team. Now let's talk about the growth that other teams are having to try and match that 1 through 12 roster because as you mentioned, there are teams that are hanging in there with Team USA when they start games and it usually trickles off when that second rotation goes in or that third rotation goes in. But it does seem maybe that that gap is closing in a little bit in comparison to, I don't know, last Olympics in Tokyo or even two Olympics ago in Beijing. Ben, I know we've had some different thoughts around what this looks like. We talked about this with Sabrina in our last pod. But does it feel as if, quote, unquote, parody is starting to show up on the world stage and is the world closing in on the United States?
- [27:42]
F
I mean, I think that really is the big and core question that I've been thinking about this Olympics. And certainly as I watched the Belgium game, you know, a few times throughout, I was thinking how, you know, this is a team in Belgium that can hang with the United States enough right now. And if you put two, maybe one or two other high level WNBA quality players on that roster, then suddenly could Belgium, a country with continuity, you know, pull off a group stage upset? Like, do I think the U.S. there's any doubt that they're going to win the gold right now? No. And you know, I would predict the same, that they're going to win the gold again in Los Angeles. But like Emma Miesiman showed, you know, she became the first player in women's basketball Olympic history to score more than 20 points in seven consecutive games. Like, you know, Fenerbahce the club she plays on in Europe where she's won the Euroleague MVP two years in a row. They call her the goat there because, like, she has been that good leading them to so much success. And she was that good against Team USA and they took her seriously, the way you would take seriously any kind of all WNBA guard. But Belgium as a whole, like, you know, maybe it's because Julie Alemann, their star point guard, has been out with injury. Maybe that was the big differentiator. Like Belgium has, I think, reminded people that the gap may be closing in a little bit. I just don't think right now there are enough kind of stars around the world. The kind of A list players you need an A list star, you need like two or three other role players to supplement. I mean, Germany, you could see Leo Fibic is a really, really good player. Satusable, working her way back from injury. She's an all star level player, but she too working her way back from injury, as I said, and is still, I think, getting into game shape and missed the whole first half of the WNBA season. Niara Sabali, her sister is in concussion protocol. Like, does that game look different if Niar is there and one other player? It might. And like, that's the kind of thing in 2028, if we look forward a little bit. Like, I keep circling kind of France and I want to see, you know, their development of some of their young players. I mean, they have a young big, who I'm incredibly high on. And some WNBA executives are too. Dominique Malonga, who's playing, you know, an important role off the bench for them, someone like Leila Lacan is another guard who France has been playing. She's super young, was a first round pick in the WNBA draft last year. You watch her and, you know, Chantelle's seen it up close and personal. Like, she's super versatile, long arms, can do a lot of things. Like, if she comes to the WNBA and blossoms over the next three or four years, that's a country that, you know, I at least have my eye on is could they pull off some kind of upset in pool play? I mean, you know, I was watching recently the NBC coverage of like the Olympics on one of their, like, prepackaged shows, the primetime show. And they had Steve Kornacki on and he was talking about a segment, he was doing a segment in which he was talking about long winning streaks in basketball. And he brought up the UConn women's streak, you know, the 111 game win streak. And if the American women, like, went on that streak, 111 straight games, that would take you to 2060, just for some, like, historical comparison. And do I think the US women are gonna be winning all these games until 2060? No. And hopefully, you know, who knows if we're all here to tell that story and cover that upset if they do. But, like, I do kind of think sooner than later in group play game, like, the streak is just gonna end and that's okay. It's going to happen sooner than later. Maybe 2028. I, like, want to go there. I'm just a little torn. I don't know.
- [31:11]
E
Yeah, it's just interesting because it's like none of these things exist in a vacuum. Like, when we're talking about Team USA and how they've dominated the global scene for so long, the globalization of the sport. Like, this all also comes back to prioritization in the WNBA and WNBA expansion and owner investment. And I think all of that is tied together. And so as we do look to 2028, 2032 and on, like, as the WNBA expands and, you know, as the prioritization rule changes, which Satu Sabali last night after the game was talking about, you know, this is something that she wants to be a real priority of the next CBA for the WNBA in terms of. She said, you know, Kathy can make this league more accommodating to international players and make it more international. Like, if there are more international players that are coming over to play in the WNBA as rosters expand, as more teams are added to the league, you know, the best league in the world. We've said it over and over again, as more international talent comes in place and that develops and that goes back to their home teams and is playing with the, you know, their home countries in these, you know, World Cups and Olympic cycles, like, it's only going to raise the level of the game. But I think, you know, we've seen again, in this group stage, starting fives are really good. That's very different from, you know, Rio type of a thing. Like when Team USA would jump out immediately and it was like, oh, the starting fives can't even hang. But I think 12 years from now, when we're talking about the way that these players who are number 6, 7, 8, 9 in their countries rosters, some of those players might be playing in the WNBA and what that means for those teams in Olympic cycles and in the Olympics themselves. And. And I agree, I think just the way the sport is growing, you know, the US has been so dominant for so long, but dynasties only last for so long. I don't think it's coming to an end anytime soon. I don't think their gold medal run would necessarily come to an end anytime soon, but I do think as other countries continue to flourish and thrive and invest, and as the WNBA continues to flourish, thrive and invest, like those two things are going to go hand in hand.
- [33:26]
Ben Pickman
Absolutely. And I just want to quickly add, for those that don't know the prioritization rule, it's basically making international players have that want to play in the WNBA have to prioritize their WNBA season and come back early, oftentimes from their overseas seasons. And it's one of the reasons that some players, including France's Gabby Williams, you know, did not play for the Seattle Storm. She's prioritized her time with her French club as opposed to coming back for the wnba. So it is a real conflict to be able to grow the game if international players can't finish their seasons internationally and then come over. Before we let Chantelle go, I want to make sure Ben gets his point in.
- [34:06]
F
Yeah, like, I do think just building off of that, like, we see a lot of other countries continuing to improve on their player development overall. And women's basketball is a very global game in some cases more than the men's game in that so many of these women, you know, play year rounds overseas in, you know, countries like Turkey, Israel, Australia, France. They all have really strong, robust and like established women's basketball leagues in a way that like, you know, we don't often think about the men's game as having these such strong leagues overseas outside the United States. I do think, like, the thing I am watching for is when again, like, are we going to see kind of star level A list players from some of these other countries. And Emma Mieseman is that. But right now she is kind of the exception to the rule. Lauren Jackson was the exception to the rule a generation ago. Coming out of Australia, you look at the men's side not to make the, you know, A to B comparison, but oftentimes the women's game, you know, is a few years, you know, behind the men's game in terms of development and kind of especially the international influence of the game. You know, someone like Shay, Gilders, Alexander, someone like Giannis, Luka Doncic, you can go up and down the list. I mean, anyone from France, you name someone from that roster, like, you start to see some of the best players in the world. I mean, some of them are from, you know, from Africa. Right. Like, you know, we've seen Joel Embiid, right, who's obviously now playing for Team usa, but the point still stands. Like, when are those players going to come to the WNBA and make a big impact and really shake up the league and then in turn shake up the Olympics? And like that I think is the, the kind of looming question in my mind when we think about globalization. For, because for as global as the WNBA is and women's basketball is like this year in the All Star game, Jonquil Jones was the only international player.
- [35:51]
Ben Pickman
Right.
- [35:51]
F
Right now, of course, 12 of those spots were allocated to Team USA, but like, there weren't. And Satu Sabley was injured, but it wasn't this like global game the way the NBA All Star game is. So, you know, I think we're just going to have to wait and see. Maybe LA 2028 will be a coming out party for some of these international prospects. Or maybe we'll have to wait, you know, for another Olympic cycle after that. But that is kind of the thing I'm keying in. Keying in on as the kind of women's basketball landscape moves forward.
- [36:18]
E
Well, and I think just to like pile onto the point of how the sport on a global level is growing, like, we're just seeing more investment across the board in women's sports. Like you look even at like women's Rugby Sevens. Alana Mar. That is a group that is getting investment heading into 2028 and hoping to grow their sport. Like the same is happening abroad with women's basketball. And you have to think with Nigeria picking up their first win in group play in their first game against Australia, this powerhouse that's coached by a WNBA coach and has WNBA players up and down their roster, like there's going to be more attention paid to that team and hopefully that results in dollars. Same can be said about Germany. This is a program that has never qualified for the Olympics before and they are putting out great performances. Again, hopefully, as the sport grows in Germany and people are seeing that the results are out there, the return to that is again, investment in the financial form because that's what's going to help these programs grow.
- [37:13]
Ben Pickman
Oh, absolutely. And shout out to Alona Martin on the Team USA rugby team.
- [37:18]
E
I think she's made everyone Rugby Sevens, whatever it is, I haven't stopped.
- [37:21]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, Rugby Sevens fan. Absolutely. I'm obsessed.
- [37:24]
E
Everyone's a rugby fan. I just want to like claim it going in. I feel like everyone sort of, there's different sports that people have sort of raised their hand to cover at the Olympics here, where our editor is like, what do you want to go cover? And I feel like immediately everyone's like, I want to go cover rugby. Let me go cover women's rugby. Like it has become, you know, and then handball was very popular. People were fighting to try and cover handball. Like there is the. That's sort of like the sports that you think of as like very Olympic in terms of gymnastics and swimming and track, and everyone wants to cover those. But I think the way that other women's sports are being raised as well onto hopefully higher platforms is really cool to see here.
- [38:00]
Ben Pickman
All right, well, that's all from Chantelle because she's got a run to actually go cover the three by three game. USA is taking on Spain, which actually started their recent win streak in the 3 by 3 game. If you've been watching their journey this entire Olympic lost their first three games and then since that fourth game have gone on to win hintedly against four different countries in five different games. It's been a wild ride. And in part two of this conversation, Ben Pickman and Sabrina Merchant are going to break down what this journey has been like and also break down where this team ended up. I know there has been a lot of questions about this three by three team and what their future looks like at the Olympics and their performance. So I'm excited to hear their thoughts on not only where they ended up, but where they can end up in future Olympics. Ben, Sabrina, take it away.
- [38:54]
F
Thanks, Zena. So, Sabrina, we're taping this part of the podcast Monday evening, shortly after the conclusion of the Olympic 3 on 3 tournament. The United States have taken home bronze after an 0:3 start in the preliminary round. Germany the gold medalist, then Spain in the silver. The Americans, they had eked out a 1613 win over Canada in that bronze medal game. We're going to get into the big picture stuff and talk about where we think 3x3 is right now and where we think it should go going forward. But before we do that, let's focus on this year's American roster. What did you make of the US's run through this tournament? Certainly an up and down journey, though it does end in some hardware.
- [39:36]
G
There is zero chance that I would have come into this tournament thinking that Hayley Van Lith was going to be America's best player. And yet that is where I sit here. After the bronze medal game, I thought, you know, my theory of 3x3 was like, I just want as many like size Wings as possible to switch on defense. And yet I realized there's some real value in having just an on ball guard who can get her shot and get to the basket with regularity. And that's what Haley did. So I just have to give, you know, some, some plaudits to Haley Van Lith, like obviously some low points throughout the tournament, which was the case for every single American player, but I think just her individual scoring and the fact that she was kind of fearless whenever she had the ball in her hands, like sometimes for better and worse, but was something that the Americans really, really needed. And you know, we'll obviously talk later on in this podcast on the athletic.com like about Haley Vanland's WNBA future and what you know, she looks like as a professional and that side of things. But as a 3x3 player, she's pretty good. And even at 5 foot 7, I think there's a realistic future for her.
- [40:35]
F
Yeah, it's an interesting comment that you made to start and who would have thought we were starting here? I mean there were definitely times, a lot of times throughout the tournament where opposing teams picked on her for her size. But I think to her credit, she very much understood the kind of fast paced action of the game, the need to always be on the move, always be creating. Like, like she was consistently curling off screens, she was consistently calling for ball screens, trying to playmate as best she could. Like she was going left almost every single time out. Like truly almost every single time out. She just would attack with her left hand and you know, she was America's leading scorer, scoring 5.2 points per game. And like give her credit because she knew what she needed to do to get baskets and pretty routinely like she did. And, and quite frankly they don't take home a bronze medal without her. Like this is a team with two, you know, WNBA all stars on it in Ryan Howard and Derick Gamby. But it was Haley Van Lith who seemingly ignited the offense like time and time and time again. So you know, I think a credit. A credit to, to her.
- [41:41]
G
Yeah, I mean she had that one pass against Canada that like little wraparound to Derek Hamby that sort of put him up, I think one or two in the bronze medal game. So just like creating too for her teammates. I. She has a really good understanding for how this game works. Like you said, the pacing of this game works to Hayley Van Leth who's just, yeah, she's small but she's scrappy and she has a really high motor and she is used to playing a lot of minutes, so I think that all works in her favor in this particular setting.
- [42:05]
F
You know, she is the college player obviously in this group, as we said, two other WNBA All Stars on this team. What did you kind of make of Ryan Howard and De Erica Hamby's performance? Because you know, Hamby played really well, I think, in the bronze medal game and there were times where she really did assert herself like, you know, the best player on the floor. And Ryan Howard too had some really high moments and also some low moments like before. You know, maybe this is a transition to the bigger part of this conversation. But what did you make of those two in particular? Because so much of the slow start seem to be because of their slow start overall.
- [42:40]
G
Yeah, I wanted each of them to be better. I thought De Erica was closer to what I expected her to be. Just getting inside. Probably didn't finish as efficiently as I thought she was going to, considering how well she has finished for the Los Angeles Sparks this year. But admittedly a lot more contact allowed in 3x3 and like you could definitely see that affecting her just in terms of her ability to make shots around the basket. But you know, in terms of working with Haley Van Lif in that pick and roll, I thought she was decent defensively around the rim too. Could not make a free throw to save her life. That really ended up biting the Americans in the butt. But again, that's been a part of Derek Gamby's game for the Sparks this season. It's just as she's been efficient in every area of the court, she has not been able to make free throws at a high rate. Of players in the WNBA who attempt at least four free throws per game, she has the lowest percentage. So I think Dierka was closer to what I expected, even though I might have hoped for more. But Ryan Howard, just like the gap between what she could be and what she ended up being. At times I don't think any player had a higher variance for me than Ryan Howard. Like if the jumper's going, she looks great. But then at times I was wondering, does she know how to play 3x3? Is she just kind of out here doing 5 on 5 and seeing what happens? It was a very weird Ryan Howard experience.
- [43:47]
F
Ryan did hit a game winning two point shot in the preliminary rounds over Canada. It was one of the maybe best shots we've seen all tournament and I think it was the kind of shot we expected her to make on a frankly game to game basis in this format. But overall, she shot just 21% from 2 point range, which is the 3x3 equivalent of 3 point range for all intents and purposes in this conversation. I mean, she said afterwards she was, you know, still super proud for, you know, taking home a medal. And that was a. It was a good feeling. And I think the team as a whole was very proud. Interestingly, Reinhauer became the first dream player to reach an Olympic podium since Angel McCaughrey in 2016. So that is a kind of a fascinating fact, but I kind of agree with you. Like a little bit of a mixed bag tournament from Ryan Howard here. We thought kind of heading in, she could be the best player overall in this tournament. And I think it revealed that she might be the best player in the whole tournament, in the whole field. Someone who obviously, like, can make a case, should be on the 5 on 5 roster and is someone who I think we expect to be there going forward. But that doesn't necessarily mean she was the best 3 on 3 player and the best 3 on 3 player for that format, which I think, you know, transitions us very nicely into this broader conversation. Sabrina, which is just how should the United States approach 3 on 3 basketball on the women's side going forward? Like, where. How should this roster be comprised? What should its goals be? What do you hope to see going forward with 2028 in LA kind of looming larger?
- [45:20]
G
There's no reason to me why the USA shouldn't be an international powerhouse in 3x3 basketball. Like, we have the largest depth of basketball talent in the world. This is true on the men's and women's side. And there's too many players to be on the five on five team. Like, as we talk about all of the snubs that don't make their way onto 5 on 5? There's so much talent that could be brought into this 3x3 pool. And the fact that that hasn't been the case, like, is just. I think it kind of speaks to the fact that, like, 3x3 is not a real sport in the US yet. Like, there obviously are players who make their living playing 3x3 and, like, have made that the dedicated part of their basketball career. Like, you think about, like, Linnae Harper and even Camille. I mean, Sarah Burdick has become like a 3x3 veteran, but it does sort of still feel like the. The feeder system into five on five. Like, this is what you do if you can't get to five on five. Nobody prioritizes this. And I get that. Like, it's never going to have the cachet of five on five basketball. But like, if you're the US you kind of have to hope that it turns into a beach volleyball, indoor volleyball situation where yeah, like indoor volleyball was originally the prize sport and people only played beach if it was sort of the offshoot of indoor volleyball. That's how the Olympics even created it. It was just a fun little sport that they added on to add some more volleyball because it was such a high rated event. But I just think that at some point there has to be a groundswell in the US that wants to play this game, just not because they're not playing 5 on 5 because they actually like 3x3. And I don't think we're there yet. So for me, as long as it's going to be a feeder thing, I think you just kind of have to go younger. Like we talked about this in our debate last week. I think if the US really wants to get players chemistry and like, who know how to play this game and develop in this style of play, you got to just get college players and sort of say like, this is your intro into USA Basketball. Like, obviously we reward continuity and commitment to USA Basketball. So the longer you stay in the program, the better chance it is that you'll eventually make into five on five. So that would be my suggestion.
- [47:15]
F
I like that you said that you don't think the United States is there yet and fully caring about 3x3. I would just strip the caveat the I think there because I think it is pretty clear that we are not totally invested in three on three in the same way we are five on five. We should add that in 2021 in the Tokyo Olympics, four WNBA players, Kelsey Plum, Jackie Young, Steph Dolson and Alicia Gray all were part of the gold medal winning 3x3 team. And that was kind of before there was any kind of strict qualification process or procedure that was put in ahead of these games. And so now you have players who have to compete in 3x3 events and accumulate a certain amount of points. And that's how certain players, namely Sierra Berdyck and Haley Van Lif kind of made this team. And it's why, you know, some of the biggest names in women's basketball in the United States were not on this team. It's why you can't just say, Caitlin Clark, hey play. Angel Reese, hey, play. You know anyone else who did not make your 5 on 5 team who might be a WNB All Star, like play in this game, but like I Still think that begs the question, like, kind of, who is this for? Kind of like, how do you reflect on this tournament? Because that is something I'm very much thinking about because the Germans take home the gold medal here. But is anyone stepping back and saying that that collection of four German players makes up, like, are the four best three on three players in the world, or are they the best three on three team? Maybe there's a difference between all of that because, like, you have a hard time thinking that the United States women's basketball 5 on 5 team has won 58 straight games and counting. And it's like, they are the best women's basketball team in the world, the best women's basketball program, the best women's basketball country. And so it's almost like FIBA is kind of hoping for results like this, where, like a Germany, a Spain, a Canada, all these other countries are pushing the United States so that it's not just, hey, us, here is another basketball gold medal for you to win.
- [49:14]
G
I mean, that's obviously the goal, right? The whole point of 3x3 is that it's a more accessible form of basketball than five on five. For teams for, you know, programs in countries that don't have the depth of talent that the Americans do, it's easier to set up. You only need four players versus 12, right? Like, it's an outdoor game. It's just. It's just a lot easier to put together, you know, a 3x3 infrastructure than it is 5, 5 on 5. And it's supposed to be so that countries who traditionally aren't powerhouses on the other side can make their way into the 3x3 pool. And I think you've even seen it more on the men's side, where Latvia and Lithuania are playing in the bronze medal game. And obviously those are teams that are not going to compete on the five on five side. And even the Dutch were in the gold medal game, and they were not in the pool for the five on five side either. So like you said, I think that's the point. It's supposed to just be allowing more countries to participate in basketball than just, here's another event that the Americans can win. But I do think that, like, the Americans are well positioned to make it their event if they want to. It just doesn't seem like there is that, you know, impetus yet. And it's. It's too bad because, like, it. It really does seem like it could be just one more gold medal to add to the tally.
- [50:25]
F
It does. And the game is, we should mention, like, stylistically very different shot clocks are 12 seconds. Like, like, it's very fast paced. There's no half court. There's no individual fouls. It's all team fouls. You know, the double bonus at 10 fouls, it's two shots and the ball. It's an especially punitive penalty in a game like this. Like, it does feel distinctly different than five on five. And you do see, like, American basketball and people talk about this more generally, is so one on one heavy. So isolation heavy at its top level. And you watch some of these other three on three teams, some of these best teams, they rely on passing and cutting and screening, and it's just like constant motion in a way that I do think someone like Ryan Howard, who is such a good isolation player, like, kind of struggles a little bit because she can't just dance with the basketball for, you know, 12 seconds. Because that literally is a shot violation, right? That. That is a turnover. And that was one of the, I think, the issues that, you know, the United States team had. But I do still think, like, to your point, of the college players, there has got to be a tier or equality of WNBA player who recognizes that, like, this is their chance to make the Olympics and that that would still be an unbelievably proud moment for them and is no slight not to be on Team usa. Five on five, like, both has the kind of ego and competitive desire to want to play in the Olympics, but recognize where they are in the kind of pecking order of American basketball players and, like, invest some time into 3x3. And I understand that would mean, you know, they would have to play some of these tournaments and accumulate enough points. But, like, there aren't four of those players out there who just, like, want to become, in essence, like specialists and get this opportunity in four years or in eight years. Like, that's the part that isn't sitting so well with me when I think about the United States future here and just relying on, you know, four college players going forward, forward.
- [52:15]
G
I think part of it is that it's so new, right? And this is the first cycle where the US really had to go through the qualification process just like every other country and, you know, use players who had been through the 3x3 circuit and had accumulated the appropriate number of points. I do wonder if we're having this conversation if Cameron Brink is just healthy and able to play with, you know, the core of the team that won the World cup in 2023. And she obviously is a dramatically different presence than DeOrca hamburger, especially defensively. So maybe the US is just successful with its original foursome. And we're not talking about what the future of this team looks like, but I just think that it's so hard to ask players to play an entirely different style of basketball when they're already in the wnpa, when you're already at the highest level. Because, like we've been talking about, it is a very, very different game. There was a meaningful transition for Ryan Howard and Derek Kahami to have to make, and we saw that in the first three games that they lost and even throughout the rest of pool play. Like, those games are really close. That's why Ryan Howard needed to hit that overtime game winner against Canada for the U.S. to even get into the third seat of the pool play teams. So it's like literally asking them to have two jobs, right? Like, I want you to be as excellent as possible at one sport and as excellent as possible in another sport if you're a WNBA player. And I get that, like the draw of being an Olympian to me suggests that it should be enough, right? Like, who wouldn't want to be an Olympian? That's what I'm coming back to. Like, if you have. It's not like you're like you or me learning how to like do like the kayak cross or something. Like, it's. It's within their wheelhouse. So for me, it seems like the draw of an Olympic medal should be enough to get Debian players to want to do that. But it just hasn't been the case.
- [53:47]
F
Yet, I should say. I don't think we'd make a very good kayak cross team. Sabrina.
- [53:51]
G
It's an individual event. That's how little we know about it.
- [53:54]
F
But there gets point taken. I do think though, to your point, like doing two jobs, I mean, that is the life of a WNBA player, an American women's basketball player, like playing the same sports. That is true. And like there are variations. I guess, though it begs the question and maybe we close on this is like this idea of unrivaled and is that going to help? So unrivaled for people who don't know it is this new three on three league, though it is not half court in the way that FIBA 3x3 is, but it is this new league that is starting up this winter that already has, you know, some of the biggest names in the WNBA who have signed up the Brianna Stewart, Snafisa Collier, Chelsea Gray, Jewel Lloyd, Kalia Copper. We could keep going Ryan Howard, Ryan Howard coming off of her bronze medal, all taking part in this. And, you know, I guess. Do you think that unrivaled, even though it is not the same as FIBA 3x3, will it open some eyes? Will it inspire anyone? Will it, you know, help make the pipeline a little bit stronger and solve or sort out some of what we've just talked about so far?
- [55:05]
G
I think the biggest thing unrivaled will do is it'll keep enough players stateside over the off season that they'll have time theoretically to just go play 3x3 events, you know, during the part of the year when they would ordinarily be in Europe or Australia or wherever, you know, collecting their second salary. Because if you can just get, get your, you know, your money playing unrivaled, which we should mention, it's like the average salary and unrivaled is supposed to be as high as the maximum salary in the wnba. So if you're like Enrique Goale and you're cashing your check from unrivaled now, it's like, I have a little bit more time on my hands, maybe I can do 3x3 because I don't have to worry about, you know, getting the second paycheck. So that's, I think, where it would help the most. I just think the gameplay is so different that, that it's not really going to help prepare the US for what FIBA style 3x3 looks like. But I do think just opening up some time for these best players might end up being like the best contribution it could make to the 3x3.
- [56:03]
F
Cause it's funny you say the kind of preparation because I guess that is one of the things I'm really curious about coming out of this experience is like we watched the 3x3 in the Olympics and it is a very different style of basketball. And so now I'm very curious, like when you, you put these top Americans all on one court playing 3x3, like, what does this style look like? How do they adjust their games? It's kind of fun to imagine them in a different context, I guess. I think your point about keeping them stateside and giving them opportunity to compete is a good one. The thing I think is, you know, again, does it pique anyone's interest is what I keep coming back to and do I think it's going to peak your arique goombawales or, you know, some of your all star players? Like, probably not. Because, you know, some of those players I think still have, probably have 5 on 5 aspirations. Angel Reese, I assume still wants to.
- [56:50]
G
Play 5 on 5 wanting to play 5 on 5 in LA in 2028.
- [56:54]
F
Right. So like she will want to play 5 on 5 over going the 3x Paige Beckers, it seems like is going to eventually be a part of unrivaled year two. My guess is she will have aspirations first and foremost for the 5x5 before 3 on 3. But like just player 20 through 30 again, like suddenly become a little more interested through the format. They can pick up four players. Like I think that probably is a difference in maybe the United States getting a gold medal in 2028 in Los Angeles versus you know, taking home the bronze this year.
- [57:27]
G
I mean three of them because they'll have to be playing next to Haley Van Lith because she's a 3x3 superstar for the United States.
- [57:33]
F
That's a great point. I do think Haley Van Lith, you know, we'll see what her WNBA future brings. But, but she does seem like someone who is, wants to can and is quite good at this three on three format. So it would not be shocking. I know you're a little half kidding, half serious, but maybe fully serious. She is someone who I do think, you know, could very well be the Sierra burdick, you know, 2.0 in the 2028 Olympics. Obviously at a little bit of a different position. I think that wraps up our three on three conversation and our recap of the Olympic three on three basketball. You know, it was an exciting tournament, a different style of tournament and there are a lot of these looming questions and you know, I guess now it is on us to track these qualifying tournaments and see how FIFA, you know, changes its qualification rules over the next four years if they in fact do that. And you will be right back here in four years debating the roster, seeing how they do and you know, thinking about seven personal fouls, a punitive double bonus, just terrible. A basketball that's a different color, a court that is outside. You're an LA native. Like who knows, maybe you'll be covered offering 3x3 in four years. Yeah, well, I guess we have a ton of time to do that. We'll be back later this week. Chantel is going to be back. As we talk more about the 5 on 5 semis. Seems like the United States, you know, they should be in there or else major things have gone wrong. So we'll be back to talk semis, a likely gold medal game going forward and bring you more insights on the Olympic tournament that is very much still ongoing. But for Sabrina Merchant, I am Ben Pickman. Thank you for listening to the second part of the Athletic Women's Basketball show again. We'll be back later this week and for now, keep reading us on the site and keep listening. Keep learning, keep loving the game. That's the only way we will grow it and enjoy the rest of the basketball in the Paris games. As we head into the playoffs, it's safe to assume there will be a.
- [59:31]
Sabrina Merchant
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F
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Sabrina Merchant
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F
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Sabrina Merchant
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F
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Sabrina Merchant
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Ben Pickman
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- [60:58]
E
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [61:02]
Sabrina Merchant
We love getting to talk to experts. We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also love hearing from you.
- [61:08]
E
But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh.
- [61:12]
Sabrina Merchant
A lot has changed in the last seven years and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older with us.
- [61:18]
E
So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
- [61:25]
Sabrina Merchant
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all about aging together better and also being able to laugh about getting older.
- [61:32]
E
We hope you'll join us. Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen Holderness New episodes every Tuesday.
- [61:39]
F
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [61:45]
E
Acast.com.