← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
The 2025 Women’s Final Four is set + What’s up with NCAA decision-making
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- [00:01]
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- [05:08]
Zena Keda
Hello everyone and welcome to no off season presented by MassMutual. I'm Zena Caida.
- [05:12]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [05:14]
Zena Keda
Today on the show, there's a lot of chatter about some of the decisions made by the NCAA surrounding this tournament. People have some strong opinions. I'm talking about the regional sites, the Transfer portal, timing the long travel schedules and the short turnarounds. We're going to get into it all. And we're also going to talk about how the tournament is affecting the WNBA draft, particularly just some of the players that we're thinking about now whose stock is up after what we've seen, we're going to list some players, but first, of course, the Elite Eight just happened. Some games just happened over the last two days, and it's already in the books. Final Four is upon us and we need to discuss how it all went down. So as we do this, you heard up top. I'm joined by Ben Pickman. But we're also very excited to welcome our colleague Grace Rayner, who's been out and Spokane the last several days. Grace, you're usually covering football. I don't know. How has the. The tournament held up to the competition this year of the Elite Eight for you?
- [06:14]
Grace Rayner
It's been a blast. I'm. I'm with Gino Auriemma. I'm a little wiped out with these west coast trips, but it's been a lot of fun. Spokane's been. Been super cool. Got some great games. So. Yeah, all good over here.
- [06:26]
Zena Keda
Okay, good. Are you going to be joining the team in Final Four in Tampa?
- [06:30]
Grace Rayner
Yes. Yes.
- [06:31]
Chantelle Jennings
Oh, yes.
- [06:32]
Zena Keda
Yes. Okay, great. This is actually great. I've. I've never actually met Grace in person, so this will be really cool to be able to get to see you down in Tampa. So now let's, let's get ready for Tampa because we got to talk about some of these games that just happened that I think revealed a lot about certain teams. Let's start with UCLA versus LSU. Okay. That game ended 72 65. The number one seeded UCLA Bruins secured their first final four birth by defeating the number three seed LSU Tigers. Lauren Betts, girl in the middle, 17.7 rebounds. She sat out the entire second quarter. So that just goes to show you just how big that team is. Gabriella Hawke has 18 points and Tamia Gardner was huge off the bench. LSU's flaw, J. Johnson, made up for a poor performance in the Sweet 16. Had a standout performance of 28 points, four assists. And overall, UCLA had great shooting and bench. That O took over lsu. Grace, let me know when you think about the fact that UCLA being the number one seed and lsu, a lot of people doubting them coming into this game. I thought it was a pretty good matchup to start. Um, and it still was pretty tight towards the end. Was this a case that the UCLA Bruins put Themselves in a hole versus it was lsu. That really made things tough for UCLA overall.
- [07:54]
Grace Rayner
Well, I think you mentioned that second quarter that Bets sat out, and that's where I think LSU lost the game. And that's what Kim Mulkey said at her press conference. And I thought it was interesting. She was like, betts didn't really beat us. And you look at this box score and she had maybe a quote, unquote. I don't know if we're calling it an off night. 17 points still for Lauren. Betts played 25 minutes, but yeah, I think they just got in a hole. Hawkez got really hot, Gardner got hot, and it was interesting. I thought. I thought Betts would cause them all sorts of problems, but it was really UCLA's three point shooting and there just wasn't enough time for them to overcome it.
- [08:26]
Zena Keda
Yeah, UCLA absolutely scorched from the outside. And everyone knows that. Lauren Betts in the middle, being able to see her guards on the outside, that is the bread and butter that UCLA has been able to win with so far. Um, Ben, when you're looking at this LSU matchup versus UCLA, overall, people are still not as confident in UCLA despite them being the number one overall seed. Lauren Betts going into foul trouble changed the look of this team a little bit against lsu, but LSU didn't capitalize as much as other teams probably could. What are your thoughts on UCLA going into the Final Four?
- [09:03]
Ben Pickman
I mean, they just are one of the deepest teams in the country with one of the best players in the country in the middle. And that is a really, really good formula. I think the challenge for them, obviously, going forward is that they're playing arguably the deepest team in the country, a team that is deeper than them with a player who is arguably better than Lauren Betts in Paige Becker's leading the way in the Yukon Huskies. So that side of the draw out in Spokane was treated to some great games, and that side of the bracket should have a very exciting national semifinal.
- [09:33]
Zena Keda
Yeah, and UCLA's defense did a really great job overall in LSU. Of course, flauge got her points, but they kept, you know, LSU shooting to under 33% and overall from the floor, just 37%. So that was huge. Thinking about defense. Let's talk about the next game in the Elite Eight. South Carolina beating Duke 54 to 50. Now, this was crazy just thinking about the fact that all year long Duke has just been this defensive powerhouse, and you saw that in action. South Carolina had struggled earlier in the game to get their offense going to the point that Don Staley started to literally tell Raven Johnson, cross the court across half court and slow down, chill out. Like let's something, let's set something up and see what happens. But overall, Chloe Kits led South Carolina 14 points, had some crucial free throws. In the end, Siya Fagan showed up really well. 12 points, 8 rebounds. Too much for Toby Fournier and Ashlyn Jackson who also showed up. But ultimately South Carolina won out. Ben, what was the difference maker for South Carolina in this game over Duke that did show up defensively?
- [10:42]
Ben Pickman
I mean, South Carolina was a more talented team than Duke and so it's unsurprising that they ended up advancing just on talent discrepancy alone. I, I think the main takeaway though coming out of that win is that this South Carolina team is not the South Carolina team that so many people are used to watching. I think they've accepted that, you know, if they're going to win a national championship, they're going to have to do it winning a little bit ugly that they're not just going to score points. They don't have a, like a break in case of emergency fallback option in Camila Cardozo. Right. Like they are going to have to work on every single possession on both ends of the floor. And defensively they are certainly capable of doing that. But I do think their offense obviously, like it's going to have to grind out these games and they're capable of doing so. Against Texas in the national semifinal. It's just a little bit, I don't know, surprising. Like they're still a dominant program, but this is not a dominant team in the way we have seen dominant South Carolina teams in the past. And that is okay. They've still accomplished a lot in reaching the final Four. They can certainly still do more. But you know, everyone's earning this on South Carolina. That is kind of one of the big takeaways that I have after watching them not only beat Duke but also advance past Maryland in a sweet six team game that they definitely could have lost to.
- [11:56]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. I mean it's a great point that they're a dominant team, but not as dominant as we've, we've seen. And the difference between old South Carolina and today's South Carolina is they're a system team in which people thrive within the system. But they always had one big post or one big player that stood out. Not the case this year especially. I mean, chloe kits had 14 points, seven of which came from the free throw line. Grace, if you're looking At South Carolina, moving on to the final four of this team. Like, what do you think is going to be the X factor? And it doesn't necessarily have to be a person. It could be an aspect of their game. What's going to be the X factor for them to move on to the championship?
- [12:29]
Grace Rayner
I would say it is a person and I would say full Wiley. I think she just gives them such a. Such a spark and I know that you watch South Carolina and to me she looks like the best player on the floor a lot of the times. So to have that type of depth and to have that kind of spark at this time of year, I think she's a huge difference maker and will be in Tampa as well.
- [12:48]
Ben Pickman
My favorite Malaysia, full Wiley stat from the weekend. Against the TERP, she had 23 points in 21 minutes. Against Duke, she had five points and three travels. And that I think is the epitome of an X factor.
- [13:00]
Zena Keda
Yeah, that's true. Exactly. Someone that's got to step up, got to stay on the floor. Cause you know Don Staley ain't gonna play you if you're making mistakes like that. And you saw Malaysia Folwile making a lot of mistakes in just going too fast and that can happen. But you're right that if she is on, that's a whole different team and that is what you call an X factor, so. Exactly right. All right, let's keep it pushing. I'm gonna go to Texas tcu. Oh, that came. That game was interesting. It was an interesting showdown for the Lone Star state. Texas wins 58 to 47. And Ben, you're talking about favorite stats, my favorite stat, and it's the one we've been talking about all season long of. Can Texas do this when not hitting threes? Well, guess what? They're making it to the Final four after a game where they shot 2 of 3 from the three. That's insane. They literally made two threes and were able to beat TCU, which had been six best in three point shots all season long. They ended up 4 of 20 from outside the arc. So Dona Prince was not a factor whatsoever. Act actually, in my opinion, when she got fouled out, that's when TCU started playing better. Their offense started rolling better. They started realizing that there's more offense than just the pick and roll. Overall ended Haley Van Liff's TCU career and her college career because she's projected to be a top WNBA draft pick. Texas maintain control throughout the game. Grace, you're looking at Texas. They're not a three point shooting team, but what do they bring against TCU that can carry them into the Final Four?
- [14:35]
Grace Rayner
I love Rory Harmon. I mean, I think you see everything that she's been through, and to have a point guard like that that can kind of run the show and combine forces with Matty Booker to give them kind of that one, two punch. I'm looking at this box score and I see that three of their starters were in single digits against tcu. So that makes me a little bit. A little bit more. Gives me a little hesitation. But yeah, I think when you've got the experience of Harmon and the dominance of Booker, that's a. That's a pretty dangerous duo.
- [15:03]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. Rory being very emotional after that game, having come off of her ACL tear and getting back onto the floor. It was a really beautiful pairing, the two of them just even talking about it. Madison Booker saying, don't doubt her, Ben. Do not sleep on, you know, Rory Harmon. When you're thinking about what those two in the backcourt bring for Texas, how does it differentiate them in which you don't necessarily need all three of your starters or all five of your starters in double digits, where you can find an extra spark on offense and defense out of the two of them specifically?
- [15:36]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, the difference is that Madison Booker is an advantage player on every single possession down the court. Right. That she can score and defend pretty much everyone one through five in college basketball. She can run point and she can also switch on year five and defend them because of how long she is. She can guard your best wing if needed to as well. And we certainly saw that, you know, against tcu, like, no matter who she was switched onto defensively, she was pretty successful. And offensively she scores 18 points and, you know, her kind of mid range fade away jumper, like, it's one of the prettiest shots in college basketball right now. It's why she's one of the best players in college basketball right now. And that's why Texas is back in the first Final Four since, you know, 2003 for them, I mean, this was a huge win for this program to get over the hum they had been in the Elite Eight. This is their fourth appearance in their last five years. They'd come up short in each of those prior, you know, prior chances. It's a huge win for Vic Schaefer to get back to the Final Four. He had done it, you know, eight years ago for the first time when he was at Mississippi State. And this team very much plays like Vic Schaefer teams of the 90s and of Mississippi State in the 2010s. They are really physical. They are really good defensively. Their shot profile looks pretty much like it did when he was at Sam Houston. Like, not a lot has changed with Vic Schaefer and Texas has been successful again. It's pretty, it's a, it's a pretty incredible story and a good win, obviously, for those Longhorns.
- [16:59]
Zena Keda
And well, before we wrap this game out, I just got to do, you know, give my love to the bigs because, you know, I'm big on bigs. That's huge. And Kyla Oldacre, girl, look like Tina Charles out there also, just like being able to get some steals and go full court, get an and one. I mean, oh, I was just so proud of Kyla's game. Also, Taylor Jones with that mean block on Sedona Prince, who I didn't realize was her teammate at Texas when she was a freshman. That's how long Sedona Prince had been in the ncaa.
- [17:33]
Ben Pickman
Xena, would you like to know what Kyla Oldacre said when talking about that steal and layup? I wonder if this resonates with you as a big. She was talking about it and she said she just saw an opportunity and went with it. That she just got the ball and made sure first that she made her layup and that she didn't then miss her free throw. It was step one, make the layup and then make the free throw. And she did both. And you could see the reaction on the bench when she got the N1. Like, I think it might have been more energetic, more enthusiastic than the celebration itself. Like all the Texas players were having to be held back. They were going crazy. I'm not going to say they had never seen her do go coast to coast like that before, but their reaction did kind of give off those vibes that they had never seen her go coast to coast like that before.
- [18:19]
Zena Keda
Listen, I was in my living room jumping just like them. I was like, okay, Kyla, we see you, girl. No, that was huge. And it was a great momentum shift. I think that that, that moment really, like, kind of solidified. Even though TCU came back, like, it still solidified. We've got the dominance in this game. And let's talk a little bit about that going into the next game. Dominance. Of course, UConn goes up against USC. And no, this was not the matchup we all anticipated because of juju Watkins absence. However, the resilience and the grit with which USC showed Up into this game was clearly very apparent. Kennedy Smith putting on her best Juju Watkins 2.0 performance in my opinion. But a Kiki area fen with a gorgeous jumper. I mean there was a lot of good that USC did in this game, but ultimately USC went down to Yukon 64 78. And the Stars of the show were very much on the Yukon side. Paige Beckers, Sarah Strong particularly, who had 20 points in the first half. Grace. Grace. We haven't seen the likes of Sarah Strong I, since I, since Maya. Like, I mean this is, this is. Since Maya Moore. Like this is a freshman that's been here before, right? Like the way that she played in this game, that spin move that's circulating and going viral right now, she has been here before. What did you make of Sarah Strong's game in this?
- [19:53]
Grace Rayner
I thought she was outstanding. I mean, you look at Paige and she obviously gets to 31, but she didn't have a super hot first quarter. I mean she had no.
- [20:02]
Zena Keda
She had two.
- [20:02]
Grace Rayner
I think it was two. Yeah, I think she had two points in the first quarter. And you look at Sarah Strong, she's hitting threes. She finishes with 17 rebounds. I think the thing that was the most interesting and impressive about her and Gino Auruma was talking about this in his post game press conference was that UConn in practice put in four or five things specifically for her this yesterday or this week or what, what have you. Because Gino was like, we need to get her going and I'm going to force her to score. And so I'm going to put her in positions to where she has no option but to score the baske when the ball is in her hands. And I thought that just totally set the tone. I cannot believe that she is a freshman if those two play the way that they did tonight. Geno said we're going to need a little more from, from some other people. But I, I just thought that one two punch was just. Was just so impressive.
- [20:46]
Zena Keda
It was very hard to stop. And then Caitlin Chen came out hitting threes. It was so cool to see her parents in the crowd just like going crazy. She's always been a pretty solid force for UConn, but ultimately tonight showed up in a different way. Ben, what I love about UConn so much is that they are a system team with star players. They execute well, but then they have this kind of game that allows people to make their own reads and create their own game within it. How is that going to position them well to find success in the final Four.
- [21:18]
Ben Pickman
Because star players win championships, and they have incredible star players. I mean, Gino Auriemma said, you know, earlier this season, he said something that has kind of stuck with me that he says, you know, a lot of years, championship teams, they either have the best player on the floor and the best forward on the floor and the best guard on the floor. In the case of Yukon, in a certain game, like, you know, those can either be two of the same people or three different people. Like, Az Foot didn't have her best night against USC. Certainly she goes 3 of 14 from the field, but, like, she could be, you know, in effect, the second best guard on the floor at any time. Because Paige Beckers can be your best guard and Sarah Strong can be your best forward. And when you have three players like that who are capable of dominating a game, you know, it's why they were so highly thought of heading into this tournament. It's why they were able to beat South Carolina by, you know, blow them out earlier this year in Columbia. It's why, you know, they're playing their best basketball this season right now. And it's why, you know, UCLA should feel a little bit nervous that, yeah, the Bruins are the number one overall seed. But I think it's hard to find a team that is playing better right now than the UConn Huskies.
- [22:22]
Zena Keda
I would 1000% agree. And as a person that had South Carolina and NC State in the final, I'm looking at both of those teams, and I'm looking at UConn to be like, they're playing the best basketball I've seen right now in March. But we gotta talk about some things that are not the best, which were, in my opinion, some of the decisions that the NCAA has made in terms of where these games have happened. After the break, we're gonna catch up with the whole squad about some of those things. Don't go anywhere, guys. Okay. Well, Ben and I are now about to get the whole squad back. We got Sabrina and Chantelle coming in from Spokane. And yes, everyone, I have figured out how to say it right. Spokane, Washington and Birmingham. All right, Sabrina, Chantel, I gotta ask. Is Spokane, in your opinion, better of a site than Birmingham?
- [23:21]
Chantelle Jennings
I can't speak for Chantel. I've never been to Birmingham, so I feel illuminated to make this comparison.
- [23:27]
Sabrina Merchant
I've enjoyed Spokane. It's been a great week here. We had a lovely meal last night. It's a nice hotel. They have great pens. The walk to the arena has been good.
- [23:37]
Chantelle Jennings
Lovely imagery of animals all throughout the hotel. I'm sure you can see the zebras behind me. It's everywhere.
- [23:43]
Sabrina Merchant
There's a safari thing going on that makes absolutely no sense. Zero.
- [23:47]
Chantelle Jennings
But, you know, enjoyable nonetheless.
- [23:50]
Sabrina Merchant
And a zebra, it's confusing.
- [23:52]
Chantelle Jennings
But the elephants, yeah.
- [23:55]
Zena Keda
All right, I'm gonna wrangle y'all back in before we keep going through the whole zoo that is apparently in Spokane. Ben, you gotta make a pitch for Birmingham, because right now, you're outmatched.
- [24:04]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I saw a bunch of famous civil rights landmarks on Monday morning on my run.
- [24:10]
Zena Keda
I love that.
- [24:10]
Ben Pickman
I went to the 16th Street Baptist Church, the EG Gaster Motel. I stopped by those places to see on the outside. Sadly, the museum is closed on Mondays, so I have been working on Monday as a result. But, you know, did I just show you guys up talking about cats and pens? I think I won that conversation pretty easily.
- [24:29]
Chantelle Jennings
Chantel saw Kerry Walsh Jennings, so that was pretty cool.
- [24:32]
Sabrina Merchant
I did.
- [24:32]
Ben Pickman
I did.
- [24:34]
Sabrina Merchant
There's a huge vibe.
- [24:34]
Zena Keda
I'm actually so sick. Wait, you saw her?
- [24:37]
Sabrina Merchant
I haven't confirmed.
- [24:38]
Zena Keda
This is the Olympian, by the way.
- [24:41]
Sabrina Merchant
Yes. There's a really large volleyball tournament here. And there was someone walking down the street, and we made eye contact. And it was one of those things where I was like, that person looks a lot like Kerry Walsh Jennings. And then the person walking behind her definitely gave me the look of, like, don't stare at celebrities. And so I was like, okay. I'm pretty sure it's her, but it checks out because she has children. So, you know, I'm guessing her kids might have gone into volleyball and been. I don't know where she lives. I assume on the west coast because she was a beach volleyball player.
- [25:11]
Zena Keda
My only claim to fame is that she requested to be connected with me on LinkedIn. So I'm that girl. Yeah, we're cool. And LinkedIn partners. I've never spoken to this woman, but anyways, let's wrap it all up. Sounds like Birmingham and Spokane. Pretty awesome places to be, especially if you're watching basketball. But a lot of people have some questions about it from the perspective of ncaa. Of all the cities in the country, you chose these two. And when you're thinking about things like travel, you know, what's available in terms of hotels, you know, you're thinking Spokane. You just talked about the volleyball tournament. Apparently, there's a lot going on in Spokane right at the time that this tournament is happening. Yeah, we're gonna get into that a little bit today because I. We wanna talk about some of the NCAA decisions before we get into the Final Four, it's a quiet moment. We can kind of dig into this and talk about it. So first up, let's talk about these regional sites. Of course, you guys probably won't join the board or, you know, the welcoming committee for these two cities in the way that you guys just pitch them, but someone pitched them well to the ncaa. And when you think about the distance that some of these schools are traveling to get to these places, as well as fans are traveling to get to these two places, it does make you question, like, how did Birmingham and Spokane get on the map? So, Ben, I'm going to start with you in thinking about some of the frustrations that you've been hearing from coaches, from teams, from players, whomever about these two cities. What are the things that bubble up to the top?
- [26:51]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, so there's a lot of kind of logistical challenges or situations that need to be handled as a result of having half of the teams in the Sweet 16 go to one side and the other half go to the other. Right. Especially, you know, people highlight the Friday, which is the first game day of the sweet 16. That is one of the days that a lot of coaches point to as especially problematic because what happens in the morning, and we talked about this a little bit on our, on our Saturday night Sunday morning episode, is that you have four teams who are not playing on Friday, have to show up at the arena as early as 7:30 in the morning. In Birmingham, it was this year, and they go through a practice and they go through media availability and they're basically on the court like very briefly, I want to say it's like 45 minutes to an hour at most. And they, these four teams cycle through. You have the op staff on the back end who's then turning flipping locker rooms and like taking logos off one part of the wall, putting up other logos and you have four more teams. The teams that are playing on Friday literally come in that day for their four games. Right. So you gotta think like on Sunday, I guess is another example. Like the last team out of the building was Texas. They had their media availability and it ended. They were still in the building around 90 minutes before the Duke, South Carolina Elite Eight game. Like it's just a little bit rushed and there isn't a lot of time to kind of get settled. And so this refrain you hear from a lot of coaches about the two sites in terms of that particular logistical challenge is you spend all year practicing, preparing with these shoot arounds. And then, you know, on the Games, days that matter the most, you barely get any time on the court to get set. And so that is kind of one of the biggest, if not the biggest kind of point of frustration that I think coaches around the country who don't like this two site format have voiced over these past couple years.
- [28:47]
Zena Keda
Chantelle, what have you been hearing too?
- [28:49]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, to add to Ben's point, I think the practice time is something that can be really frustrating for coaches, like doing walkthroughs and stuff. And some of these coaches end up like putting tape down in conference rooms at their hotels that like mimic a three point line in a free throw area to like have that space. Because I don't know, again, I haven't been to Birmingham, so I don't know what the situation looks like. But when you have eight teams that are looking for, if you only have an hour of practice time at the main arena, these programs then go looking for other gyms to practice in, to get shots up in, to spend time in. And so then you're looking at like colleges and universities in the area, high schools in the area. Luckily in Spokane, there's Gonzaga. So I think some, some teams have gone over there. But again, because there's eight teams here, you're trying to split that court time again with like seven other programs versus if there were only four other teams. And so same thing with hotels where it's like you're looking for enough rooms for your team. Spokane again has this massive volleyball tournament. Like it's really surprisingly difficult to find a hotel room in Spokane this week because of basketball and volleyball overlapping. And so just sort of that spatial issue of court time, hotel rooms that if there were only four times here, theoretically you could get double, with double the amount of time on the floor or a better gym, like you might not have to practice in a high school gym because it would just be easier to find that space.
- [30:09]
Zena Keda
Sabrina, I understand you spoke to the NCAA about some things. Did this come up as a topic and what was said if it did? I mean, this feels as if, I don't know, it feels as if it's unavoidable or could be avoided. But the logistical aspect of it seems like if you want these teams to get in front of the media, you want these teams to also find time on the court and you want things to happen as efficiently as possible for everyone involved. It does feel like it might be unavoidable.
- [30:37]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah.
- [30:38]
Chantelle Jennings
So I spoke with the vice president of women's basketball at the ncaa, Lynn Holtzman, about just the idea of the super regionals, which has been in place since 2023. And their argument was basically we weren't getting good enough attendance at the four sites. As of 2017, the average of the four sites had dropped below 4,000. And so they wanted to create a system where they could ensure that more fans were getting into the building. And I mean, just by the numbers, they've succeeded in those goals. You know, the average in 2023 was about 10,000 per game, 12,000 in 2024. You could point to some other factors as to why that might have happened, but that's part of their main argument. And then also just from an operational perspective, when you have two places that are broadcasting games versus four, it's easier for the broadcasting partners. It's easier for the NCAA to allot people to those locations. So from an operations perspective, they thought it was just more feasible, both logistically and financially from their perspective. So there are reasons as to why this happened. Obviously the tournament experiencing this rapid explosion of growth as the ncaa has sort of figured out ways to, I don't know, sort of make it a smaller entity is a very strange dichotomy. But I think there were reasons as to why they chose this particular setup. I think my main issue is if you're going to pick this two city system, you should just pick cities that are like a little bit more accessible for the majority of the country to get to. Because, you know, we're talking about three consecutive years where the two cities are at least 2,300 miles apart.
- [32:04]
Zena Keda
And that's the biggest thing that I've also been noticing. You guys are in these cities. And I do want to take a second to ask you, what is it like for you? Right? Like you guys are covering these two spaces as well, and time zone differences being up on everything that's happening. I remember we were texting over the course of this weekend and we were talking about one game and you guys couldn't see the ending of that game because obviously you were watching something else and you were in availability for another game in a different city. I feel like that's part of it too. But how has it been for the media in terms of having this two city system? Shantel, I'll start with you.
- [32:38]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I mean, this is sort of the push and pull of like, personally, I mean, Sabrina and I were literally talking about this last night. Like, if we went to four different regions, you know, Sabrina and I might not be in the same place. And it's really fun to like, sort of spend A week with a colleague in the same city, because there's, you know, they basically split our team up into two groups, and there's two to three people at each site. And if we go to four, theoretically, you know, we're going to have one to two people at each site. That said, like, it's the first day of the Sweet 16 is really, really long. You have availability with four teams, which is several hours, and then you're sort of writing off of that. And then on top of that, you have two basketball games that go back to back. And so if it were, you know, half that, and, you know, or like, it's a lot from a media perspective. And I think the idea that the NCAA had was like, okay, there's sort of this pot of media, and so if they're dispersed into four versus two, like, we get more coverage overall. And I think the way that women's basketball media has grown again since they've made these decisions in the late 2010s, like, women's basketball media has grown significantly. And I think splitting into four regions, like, you're still probably going to get even more, if not better coverage because you're going to sort of have people that are, you know, there have been things where we're like, ah, we need to get to the game. So we might not write about this right now because it's not quite as newsy or whatever. And so I think there's decisions that are made in, in that aspect, too.
- [33:57]
Zena Keda
Ben?
- [33:58]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I will say, though, like, there are still teams that even in the eight region format, there's not, like, you don't get a strong local press contingent from all the teams on each side of the draw. And so you do run the risk of, like, one team just shows up and suddenly, like, doesn't have a lot of media coverage. I mean, I think my experience is more, you know, again, kind of selfishly, I was pretty happy to go to Birmingham because frankly, like, I live in New York and I could get a direct flight to Birmingham, Alabama. Whereas, like, if I was a fan, say, and a fan of a different program that was out in Spokane, it would have caught, you know, it would have taken me 10 hours and multiple connecting flights to get to Spokane, Washington. And I know that's the experience that a lot of fans have to wrestle with, with, as Sabrina was saying, like, you know, some of these regionals being put in cities that might not be as accessible or as central in different parts of the country, I mean, I think it's going to be really Interesting to see how this changes over the next couple years. And we should say that, you know, the NCAA has committed to, you know, using this format at least through 2028. Right. So next year, I think Fort Worth, Texas and Sacramento are going to be the two regional championship sites for the Sweet 16 and Elite 8. And then it's going to be Las Vegas and Philly in 2027 and Portland and Washington, D.C. and so, you know, Vegas, Philadelphia, Portland, Washington, like, those are at least cities that, you know, theoretically are easier to get to. Now, of course, you know, you lose with Vegas and Philly being the dynamic. Like, you know, if you live in the middle of the country, they're not tapping into that fan base. And that is also another kind of frustration point that a lot of coaches talk about is, like, when you pick two sites on two different parts of the country, you basically box out a whole big part of the country from watching these games in person and potentially like, having new fans show up to watch women's college basketball for the first time. Like in Birmingham, I don't think attendance has been sold out, but the attendance has been pretty good. But they've also benefited. Benefited from a lot of schools who are pretty close, right? Relatively speaking, Tennessee, North Carolina, Duke, South Carolina. Like, even the schools in Texas, like, I don't think it's so far for them. So, you know, this region has benefited. But this is a common frustration that I know Gino Horiyama has voiced the past couple years. When they get sent out west, their fans travel, but that doesn't mean it's easy for them to get there at all.
- [36:13]
Zena Keda
So that's a really great point. I'm happy you brought that up, because it's one thing for the media to have to travel, it's another thing for the fans to have to travel. I'm really happy you brought up the point of, like, boxing out the Midwest, which provides a lot of great basketball for the country. But, you know, this concept of UConn, for example, UConn that wants to pretty much say every year they're going to be in the Elite Eight or the Sweet Sixteen, etc. Let's talk about their logistics. For example, they had to travel approximately 2,700 miles from Storrs, Connecticut to Spokane, Washington, for their Sweet 16 matchup. Should they advance to the Final Four, they would then travel. And we're recording this before all the Elite A games are done. But should they advance to the Final Four, they would then travel to Tampa, back to the East Coast. Okay. And Geno called this out in a media press conference. He talked about the logistical challenges. He talked about the short turnaround and referenced the impact on his players. And Sabrina, I'm going to go to you with this because this isn't new, especially once a lot of these girls go to the W. Right. Like this is. Athletes are going to have to deal with this, and it's going to be an issue. But what are some of the things that the NCAA are looking at to potentially change this, per your conversations with them? But also, like, what could they be looking at? What are some of the ideas that you might have?
- [37:35]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, the Final Four thing is just really tricky because it's hard to change the schedule of the first two weekends of the women's tournament. Like, the men's tournament already has the Thursday to Sunday blocked out. And so I think the women don't want to start on the same day because it takes away some of the attention from your start if you're coinciding with the men's. And so they've moved from Friday to Monday. And, you know, less than 10 years ago, the Final Four was on Sunday and Tuesday, as opposed to Friday and Mondays. I'm sorry, Friday and Sunday. So when it was Sunday and Tuesday, the regional ending on Monday wasn't a huge issue because you still had six days before the next game. The problem is, is that Sunday, Tuesday is pretty terrible from a television perspective. And so that's why they moved it to Friday Sunday, which objectively, I think is the right answer. I think you're going to get more people in the building if it's a Friday, Sunday setup, and you're going to get more television audience on those two days than you would on Sunday, Tuesday. I mean, the Tuesday national championship was like kind of an afterthought after the men's one had happened on Monday. So, like, that makes perfect sense to me. But it does introduce this extra hurdle of, okay, if a team plays on Monday and they have to play again on Friday and they have to fly across the country and do all of this media, in addition to, once again, sort of begs the question of are we prioritizing the games or are we prioritizing everything else around the games? And maybe if you had regionals that were closer together or Final Four that wasn't stuck in one corner of the country, the travel would be less onerous and you wouldn't have to worry about going from the very top of the Pacific Northwest to the bottom of the Southeast. That seems like the worst possible outcome for Yukon especially because they were playing and not Sunday. And I know, you know, Don Sale even talked about this a couple years ago where she was coaching South Carolina, the number one overall seed. And they played on Monday and then they had to play on Friday. And so they've made the decision as the committee that the number one overall seed gets to play on Sunday, which is why ucla, flying out of Spokane, got to play on Sunday. And they'll have a little bit extra time to, you know, get their bodies onto east coast time when they get to the Final Four. But that's, I guess, one of the downsides of your seating, right. UConn wasn't the number one overall seed. They were a number two seed. And that's part of the, you know, consequence of just being ranked a little bit lower on the S curve than the other teams.
- [39:45]
Zena Keda
But okay, so I didn't know that. I had no idea that the way that you finish the season, your regular season, and the way you show up in the tournament, AKA your ultimate seeding in the NCAA tournament, can actually help you get more time when it comes down to it. And Shantel, we've had these conversations about the importance of regular season play and how that can impact, you know, things later on down the line. That's a new one for me. I didn't know that that was like a bonus. Are there other ways in which teams can position themselves better for this? I mean, this feels, this feels tough. Regardless, I feel bad for the all the director of basketball operations across the country because this is a lot to handle logistically.
- [40:27]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I mean, I guess one of the ironies here is that with UCLA and USC playing in the Big Ten this year, they've done a ton of cross country travel. But to act like, you know, flying from LA to New Jersey to play Rutgers is sort of holding the same amount of weight as going from Spokane to Tampa for the Final Four. Like, those are two very apples to oranges conversations. So in that way, you know, I think UCLA and USC have more experience here in terms of like, dealing with body clock changes, adjusting to new time zones, how to handle these cross country flights. But you do look at a team like UConn, which has a legitimate shot here at winning a national championship. They play, we're obviously recording this Monday afternoon, they play tonight, but in the span of a week, they went on a three hour time change west and adjusted to that, and then they have the shortest possible turnaround. So if they play tonight, on Monday, if they win, or if USC wins, either team, I Assume we'll fly out Tuesday morning unless they feel like taking a red eye. I'm not exactly sure what either team would do. But then flying directly to Tampa, going back to that east coast time, they basically have Tuesday to recover, and then Wednesday, they're, like, in prep mode and sort of all of what that means for the games. I think Sabrina said it really well. Like, at the end of the day, this is about the basketball that's on the floor. Obviously, there's a product that needs to be put on the floor. And, like, are all of these decisions being made and are all of the best decisions being made in order to ensure that, you know, you're setting these teams up for not success, but to, like, have a path to success? And there's certainly advantages and disadvantages. And, like Sabrina said, UConn's A2 seed. Had they been the number one overall seed, they would have been a Bird Birmingham. Like, they would not have been sent out to Spokane. But they didn't win enough games during the regular season to do that. And so that's how the cookie crumbles.
- [42:11]
Zena Keda
Dang. Now we know things to look out for for next year. Win more games, maybe get a day of rest in between. Okay, let's go to the last decision that has happened during the NCAA tournament that you're. You're looking at the ncaa. Like, really, we couldn't have found a different time to do this. Couldn't have found a different way to approach this. And I'm talking about the transfer portal. Okay. Because it is insane. I'm gonna say it, okay? It is insane that while competition is happening, the transfer portal opens up and teams are being reconfigured. And this is not just on the woman's side, of course. The men's side is happening, too. I was watching Pat McAfee on ESPN. Dick Vital was on there saying, like, in the heart of March Madness, you've got people switching teams. Like, this is crazy. Like, and it actually happened on the men's side. I don't know if it's happened on the women's side, but the women's Portal opened on March 25th. And since that time, in the first 24 hours from when it opened, 595 players enter the portal. That is more than two and a half times the number from the same timeframe last year. I think it was, like, 2:33 last year in the first 24 hours. 595 players during March Madness. People are trying to go to the Final Four and connect and learn Et cetera. And instead they gotta be taking phone calls from recruits or calling up recruits. Ben, I'm gonna go to you because you've been talking to coaches about this. All of you really have. But, Ben, I'll start with you in terms of just why is this happening and how much of a burden does it put on coaches to have to deal with this now?
- [43:49]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, it doesn't seem like coaches are too thrilled with this being the predicament. Now, we should say that this is actually a little bit of a change from last year when the portal opened, I want to say, the day after Selection Sunday, was it the Monday after the draw was released. And so now it is opening kind of after the first two rounds of games. But what you hear a lot from coaches this week is that they are having to juggle preparing for their biggest games of the season. Right. The Sweet 16 and the Elite 8 with also tracking the portal or making phone calls to prospective recruits. Right. There was one coach here, you know, who talked about, you know, they were watching film so much until their eyes, like, they couldn't watch any more film, and their break from film was calling a recruit. Right. Or there are other head coaches that say, like, I'm totally focused on the players we have, and, you know, our staff has to handle it. You know, one of the things that some coaches have said, Mark Campbell, the coach of tcu, put it this way to me, is like, it's like WNBA free agency occurring during the WNBA playoffs. And I think Gino Oriemma said a very similar thing, using the NBA as the comparison. Spokane. I mean, that's what we're talking about here. Like, the goal of the season is to win a championship. Right? Like, that is the most important thing you can be talking about, thinking about, weighing in on. And we're taking time on this podcast talking about the portal, and coaches, more importantly, are taking time talking to recruits. Yeah, people definitely are not thrilled with that being the predicament, but that kind of is the rules of play right now. And so you do see a lot of coaches, like, they have to engage in it.
- [45:25]
Zena Keda
Yeah, it's part of the role of a coach now is to literally recruit your players, retain your players, and then have to sometimes re recruit your players in order to keep them. Chantelle, why is it such a boom, right? Like this growth of the transfer portal? Like, do you think people are watching some of these big time transfers this year find a lot of success in their new programs and they're like, maybe this could be me, like, where Is this coming from and how is it impacting the players in this?
- [45:52]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think just with the introduction of the Portal over the last few years, players are understanding that, you know, they. There were previous, you know, generations and eras of college sports where it was like, you make your decision when you're 18 and that's it and you better stick with it. And if you're going to transfer, you need to sit out a year and you lose a season of eligibility. And so there were a lot of players that were sort of weighing those two things and saying it's not worth it. And now you don't have to sit out. You can transfer and be eligible immediately. And in some cases if you've already graduated, like, you can transfer more than once. And so it's like there are these opportunities and, and we're kind of getting to the end of the fifth year. Covid players where it's like a Haley Van Lith where you have multiple, multiple transfers because they have that extra bonus year. But yeah, it's just. I think it's another option that's available to college athletes. I think it's a good thing. I think it's ultimately like, to give players that freedom of movement is a good thing. But sort of like Ben was saying when he was talking about, like, coaches are. I'm literally talking to coaches that are like going from a one hour zoom with a potential portal recruit to an one hour film session with their current team for an Elite eight game. And like, that's happening. And the flip side of that is I was talking with LSU center Jersey Wolfenbarger, who is a portal recruit to lsu and she was actually last year on campus during the first weekend of the tournament with lsu and she was telling me that it was really bizarre.
- [47:11]
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- [47:11]
Sabrina Merchant
Because she felt. Because you could visit at that point because it was after the selection show. So LSU got her on campus during the first weekend of the tournament and she was saying she felt really selfish, that it was like, you guys have this huge thing ahead of you and I'm here taking up time with the coaches and the coaches were like, no, but we want you here. And so it's sort of that juggling of, you know, coaches, responsibilities, how players feel and all of that. And it's, it's wild. And I think it's worth pointing out this is the exact same on the men's side. I think a lot of times when we see these things happening on the women's side, it's like, oh, I bet it's better for the men? No, it's the exact same for the men. But I will point to college football. Like college football, their portal opens this year, December 7th. And the College Football Playoff didn't start until December 20th. And so they had. Or December 9th, it opened. So they had an 11 day window before the playoffs began to sort of do these things, to start having these conversations. And obviously the portal was still open into the playoffs. But then there's also a second window in the spring for college football. And so, you know, there are sort of these accommodations being made for other sports in terms of not putting this smack dab in the middle of the most important time of the year where it's like coaches can't ignore this. This is how you help build your program. Not every team is taking seven portal recruits, but there's not a coach in the country that is going to tell you that they're not looking at it every day.
- [48:31]
Zena Keda
I like the idea of the opening before the tournament, giving you that space. I'm literally trying to imagine Jersey Wolfenberger on campus seeing her potential new teammates and them trying to recruit her while they're also trying to focus on it, on the tournament itself. And Sabrina, this is my thing is like you're looking into the future and also dealing with the current, both of which are really important. But like, I don't even know how are coaches balancing that? How are the players even balancing. You could be my potential new teammate. Like, how do you. I don't know how that works. Yeah.
- [49:02]
Chantelle Jennings
I mean, Corey Close said that she thinks a lot of programs are rushing hires for coaches because they need to get their head coaches in place before they can start portaling. Right. And I mean, this isn't a women's basketball example, but I think about on the men's side where Duke men's basketball lost their lead assistant before the tournament started because Miami needed to go start recruiting their players in the portal at this point in March. So it's a very strange situation where you have to immediately be thinking about the future, even though there are so many things in the present that really should be demanding your attention.
- [49:30]
Ben Pickman
Wow.
- [49:30]
Sabrina Merchant
I also think, let's add here, there's coaches who've also said that like, yes, the portal opened the day after the sweet 16, but they said, you know, there's got to be a lot of more, a lot more regulation around this because you've got agents and, you know, sort of third party shopping players well before the portal actually opens to try and figure out like what's going on. And like, is there a spot? And so that's the other part, is that there are coaches who are coaching players in the Sweet 16 Elite 8, what have you, that are, like, I know that they're probably going to, like, not be on my team four days from now because their agents like, looking for a better opportunity for them.
- [50:03]
Zena Keda
Their agents. Sorry, Ben. Thoughts? Last thought on this. Wrap us up on this. This is crazy.
- [50:09]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. The two last things I would say is that Courtney Banghart, the coach at North Carolina, she cited one of the reasons why the timing is what it is currently as being part of, as a result of the academic calendar, and that for some institutions, summer school starts up in early May. And so as it relates to transferring and enrollment and getting people in their classes in time, allowing people to, you know, have time in the portal to make their visits, to make their choices. She said that some of the timing, if you push it back, butts up against some things like, you know, enrollment that is needed and, you know, making sure people are eligible.
- [50:43]
Sabrina Merchant
That doesn't mean student part of student athlete.
- [50:45]
Ben Pickman
Right. You can't be flexible here like Chantelle mapped out in the college football scenario or breaking up to two windows. But I think that's kind of one consideration that, that schools in the NCAA surely are thinking about. The two things I would say, though, then to close out this conversation fully, is we've had coaches here in Birmingham say the most important recruits that you could be recruiting right now are the recruits in your own locker room. That is axiom, you know, idiom, cliche. Number one, we've heard, and two, we've heard coaches say that we only want players. Like, if we're going to miss out on a recruit who's in the transfer portal because we're still playing in the elite eight or the sweet 16, guess what? We might not want them anyway. Like, we want people who want to win and want to understand winning. And if they should understand that, I might be like, I, the coach might be a little bit slow to respond to a phone call or a text because my team is preparing for the Elite Eight like, they want winners. And maybe a player who's coming to some of these programs should want to play for a winner and understand then the kind of burdens and challenges and the situation that we all have just described.
- [51:49]
Zena Keda
Yeah, I absolutely agree. Recruit your locker room first, because they obviously bought in and got you to a place in which you are in the tournament in the first place. And then I also, I get that now with the timing of making sure that These players have enough time to make a decision and then get enrolled. So this is exactly why we need you to button it out. Ben, you actually gave me a lot good of context that was like my mind was blown right now just thinking of how early they're having these recruiting visits. As we round the corner to the Final Four and the championship game, we cannot lose sight of the fact that the WNBA draft is now less than two weeks away, folks. April 14th, that is when it's happening. And so we are recording this on Monday and by the time the Final Four starts, we'll know which conference have opted into the draft. Well, most of them. Not the ones that are still playing, of course, but a lot of them. And so I want to know, Lightning round style, y'all give me your one player who has significantly raised their draft stock during this tournament. I need two sentences. Why? And we're just going to go around. Chantel, we're going to start with you.
- [52:54]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm going to say USC forward Kiki Iriafen. I think she's someone who through the season people were wondering if her draft stock had dropped a bit simply because she was sort of playing in a complementary role to juju Watkins. And there's not a soul in the world that wishes that weren't still the case sort of through this tournament. But in the wake of juju's injury, obviously Kiki's become a much larger part and focal point of that offense, of that defense. And I think those sort of minutes, what it puts on tape from her skill set, but also her leadership to have this really young team, a lot of freshmen there, what she means to them right now and how she's reacted in what is a really challenging emotional time for her on the floor. I think that just puts more, more plays on tape for GMs to look at and evaluate her game.
- [53:42]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. Great pick. I love that one. Sabrina.
- [53:45]
Chantelle Jennings
I'm gonna go with Sarah. Ashley Barker, the guard out of Alabama, I think, you know, kind of a, a second round look, but really put a really good tape on film for that 45 point message against Maryland, even though Alabama ended up losing that game. Just showing that she can score basically in any different kind of way, all three levels. The clutch free throws. I know WNBA people love clutch shot making. So I think we don't have a lot of risers, I would say, in the NCAA tournament. But you can't look at a game like that and think, oh, I wouldn't want a six foot guard who plays in the SEC who can get buckets in the NCAA tournament on my WNBA team facts, period.
- [54:22]
Zena Keda
And it has the resiliency that she showed she has true grit in that game. Ben, who's your player?
- [54:27]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I don't know if this player is necessarily a riser, but I'm going to throw out a fun tidbit to close out this show that is related to professional basketball in the college game. It's Saniya Fagan, the center forward of the South Carolina Gamecocks. I think she's someone who's been on a lot of people's boards and you know, I think people are, as we said, intrigued by like the versatility that she presents as a 6 foot 3 big. She can score a little bit. She's a really good rebounder. She's shown she can be a capable passer. You know, she had three steals, two blocks against Duke. But the tidbit, the reason why I threw her name in is because I learned this week that Gillette Law, one of the assistants of the Gamecocks. Gillette's nickname for Sanaa Fagan, is Embiid, as in Joel Embiid. And that's not to say that Sinai Fagan is on the path to be a WNBA mvp. But I thought that was a pretty interesting kind of fun name nickname for a player that it's wnba, NBA related enough, I think. Good for this conversation here, Xena.
- [55:22]
Zena Keda
There you go. And those coaches know a lot more about those players than anything that we'll ever see. And so that's, that's high praise coming from an assistant coach. And I also, I'm happy you mentioned Saniah Fagan. As you said, we're going to close the show out because that was exactly who I was going to choose. I particularly am looking at the Duke game, the way that she was hitting turnaround jumpers in the post. I was like, I don't know if I knew this was consistently a part of your game, but particularly the one that she hit after they were tied. 46. 46. And that jumper kind of broke open. South Carolina leading the rest of the game for, for them and ultimately winning against a very aggressive defensively Duke team. So Sinai Fagan is definitely my choice. All right, y'all, it's time. That's all we got for you today, y'all. We are excited for the Final Four. Thank you so much, Ben, Sabrina and Chantel and Grace for breaking this all down with me and thank you all for listening. Of course. We will be back Friday to talk all things Final Four. If you're new here, hit that follow button wherever you're listening so you can stay up to date with us. Of course, if you found us on YouTube. Great comment. We wanna hear from you as well. Reach out on social Leave us a comment where you're listening. And while you're at it, if you don't mind, give the show a rating. Go ahead and leave that five stars. If it's anything less, go ahead and keep it in your pocket. It's all good. It really does help new people find this show. And don't forget we always have tons of great content on the site. There's more to read and hear and watch over at our partner Yahoo Sports Club. So check it out at sports.yahoo.com women-sports on behalf of the Athletic, I'm Zena Keda. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Perot. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Brenna Haupt is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is is our director of audio operations.
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Zena Keda
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Zena Keda
Hey, folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF. It's been more than 15 years now, and I'm still talking to all kinds of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal. Yeah. I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.
- [59:39]
Grace Rayner
Are you afraid of it?
- [59:40]
Liquid IV Advertiser
Of death?
- [59:41]
Zena Keda
Well, I don't. I think about it all the time.
- [59:43]
Grace Rayner
How are we here already?
- [59:44]
Zena Keda
Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app.
- [59:48]
Liquid IV Advertiser
Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription.
- [59:52]
Zena Keda
Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.
- [60:06]
Sabrina Merchant
Com.