The Aftermath of Napheesa Collier’s Explosive Statement + Aces-Mercury Finals Preview

Summary

No Offseason: The Athletic Women’s Basketball Show

Episode: The Aftermath of Napheesa Collier’s Explosive Statement + Aces-Mercury Finals Preview
Date: October 3, 2025
Hosts: Zena Keda, Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the seismic impact of Napheesa Collier’s scathing exit interview comments targeting WNBA leadership—specifically Commissioner Kathy Engelbert—and explores the ripple effects across the league with players, executives, and fans. The crew dissects the current state of the WNBA, the looming CBA negotiations, and leadership’s relationship with players. The second half pivots to a detailed preview of the historic first-ever seven-game WNBA Finals between the Las Vegas Aces and Phoenix Mercury, offering analysis, matchups, and storylines to watch.

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Main Segments & Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Stage: A Wild Week in the WNBA

[02:17—07:14]

• The hosts reunite in Las Vegas, reflecting on a tumultuous week in women’s basketball: major news cycles—including coaching changes, media rights updates, expansion, and a dramatic overtime semifinals game.
• The overwhelming focus, though, is on Napheesa Collier’s headline-making exit interview.

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2. Napheesa Collier’s Explosive Statement & Its Fallout

[07:07—26:16]

Collier’s Core Message

• Sabrina highlights Collier’s cutting line:

  “We have the best players in the world. We have the best fans in the world, but right now, we have the worst leadership in the world.”
  (Sabrina quoting Collier, 07:07)

Immediate Reactions

• Sensation spreads rapidly—players, NBA stars, executives, and fans react in shock (“unprecedented” is the recurring word).
  • Social media explodes with player support for Collier’s stance (Paige [Bueckers], Angel [Reese], Breanna Stewart).
• Ben notes:

  “She was very much coming at the character of Kathy Engelbert... She basically said everything you can say minus saying Kathy Engelbert should be fired right now.” (Ben, 11:17)

• Tension is heightened by the looming October 31 CBA deadline.

Player & League Dynamics:

• Collier called out leadership for:

  • Inconsistent officiating
  • Player safety concerns
  • Compensation & lack of accountability
  • Breakdown in communication

• Sabrina:

  “It’s just a consistent pattern of failing to give the players credit for their contributions.” (40:05)

• Specific controversy is cited:

  • Collier’s private conversation in which Commissioner Engelbert allegedly told her:
    • “Only losers complain about the refs.”
    • Caitlin Clark “should be grateful she makes $16 million off the court because without the WNBA, she wouldn’t make anything.”
    • “Players should be on their knees thanking their lucky stars for the media rights deal that I got them.” (37:40)

• All hosts express disbelief at Engelbert’s alleged comments, noting their disrespect and the league’s disconnect from its athletes.

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3. Dissecting Leadership: Is Engelbert’s Approach the Problem?

[13:18—26:16]

• Ben and Sabrina break down Engelbert’s achievements—capital raises, expansion, new media rights deal—giving credit for business growth.

  • Yet, hosts stress that Collier’s and players’ frustrations are about values: honesty, transparency, and player respect.

• The unique structure of WNBA governance is discussed:

  • Engelbert answers to NBA Board of Governors, Adam Silver, and investors, complicating her accountability to players.
  • Ben:

    “Is the juice worth the squeeze? If all [Engelbert] is, is middle management … is the frustration from players worth it?” (25:07)

• Commissioners in all sports serve as “punching bags,” but the WNBA’s situation feels uniquely tense amid structural change and rising player empowerment.

Notable Point:

• Sabrina on public perception:

  “Adam Silver figured out how to massage all those egos… Kathy Engelbert hasn’t quite figured out that middle ground.” (19:33)

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4. Officiating, Player Safety, & Investment

[28:21—36:06]

• Collier explicitly links officiating problems to injuries and product quality.
• Cheryl Reeve (Lynx coach) and others also push for officiating reforms.
• Mark Cuban weighs in on Twitter, blaming inadequate referee development and training in both the NBA and WNBA pipelines.

Solutions & Calls for Change

• Sabrina:

  “It’s just more investment in the officiating program… Standardize their training, standardize accountability… If you just put more money into this, officiating would get better.” (31:26)

• Ben observes step one is simply admitting there’s a problem—a step the league refuses, further frustrating players.

• The greater question: With all the new revenue, why isn’t more being invested in officiating, player experience, and infra?

  • “Where is all this hard-earned cash actually being used towards?” (Sabrina, 33:52)

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5. CBA Negotiations: Storm Clouds Gathering

[37:21—47:38]

• Caitlin Clark and player compensation surface as flashpoints—alleged Engelbert “on your knees” comments infuriate the player base and deepen distrust.

• Sabrina:

  “Does the league respect what the players are bringing to the table? Comments like these suggest no.” (40:05)

• Ben details the high-stakes CBA timeline:

  • October 31: possible extension, ongoing negotiations, or a player strike.
  • Risks explored: loss of momentum, potential work stoppage mirroring past NHL/MLB disasters.
  • Sabrina:

    “WNBA fans have other opportunities to see their favorite players… Unrivaled, overseas play. The dynamics are different.” (44:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Napheesa Collier (quoted):

  “We have the best players in the world. We have the best fans in the world, but right now, we have the worst leadership in the world.” (07:07)

• Sabrina Merchant (on public image):

  “Kathy Engelbert hasn’t quite figured out that middle ground of how to effectively represent the players and also answer to the interests of the Board of Governors.” (19:33)

• Ben Pickman (CBA):

  “If all she is is middle management, is the frustration from players worth it?” (25:07)

• Sabrina Merchant (officiating investment):

  “If you just put more money into this, officiating would get better because more people would see it as a desirable destination.” (31:26)

• Kelsey Plum’s CBA metaphor (as reported by Sabrina):

  “If we go to dinner but we’re at different restaurants, what does it matter what we order for an appetizer?” (41:25)

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6. Finals Preview: Aces vs. Mercury — Historical First Best-of-7

[50:46—66:22]

Matchup Breakdown

• First-ever best-of-seven WNBA Finals: Las Vegas Aces vs. Phoenix Mercury.
• Key X-factors:
  • Can the Aces handle Phoenix’s size (Satu Sabally, Alyssa Thomas, Natasha Mack)?
  • Depth: Phoenix has “the bench advantage”; Las Vegas brings established playoff pedigree.
  • Key player matchups: Asia Wilson vs. Alyssa Thomas.
• Statistical and tactical considerations:
  • Phoenix’s transition offense and use of size on the wings.
  • Vegas’s transition defense struggles; need to keep matchups straight.

Stakes & Storylines

• Asia Wilson: A legacy-defining opportunity for a third title and a possible Finals MVP.
• Alyssa Thomas: Seeking redemption after prior playoff heartbreaks.
• DeWanna Bonner: Chasing a third title, first with Thomas as her partner—“would be the ultimate culmination” (Sabrina, 59:53).
• Historic implications: Phoenix could tie for most WNBA championships.
• Unique trivia: Both head coaches (Becky Hammon, Nate Tibbetts) hail from South Dakota.
• Coaching revolution: Numerous NBA influences on both staffs signal the league’s overall evolution.

Predictions

• Sabrina picks Phoenix in 6 (Satu Sabally as Finals MVP).
• Zena predicts a seven-game thriller, giving Phoenix the edge.
• Ben also picks Mercury (Alyssa Thomas as MVP), admitting: “I feel like we’ve jinxed it.” (66:13)

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7. Closing Thoughts

[66:22–End]

• The mood: The tension from CBA drama is inescapable but sets a riveting backdrop for the Finals.
• The hosts urge listeners to subscribe for quick-turn coverage after every game.

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Main topic starts (skip ads, intros): 02:17
• Collier’s statement and reactions: 07:07
• Dissecting leadership & CBA context: 13:18
• Officiating and league investment: 28:21
• CBA strike scenarios & historical lessons: 45:50
• Finals preview and basketball analytics: 50:46
• Fun South Dakota fact & unique storylines: 61:04
• Host predictions: 64:47

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Final Takeaways

• Napheesa Collier’s comments mark a historic player uprising: Her direct, personal attack against league leadership sets a new standard for athlete activism and internal dissent in the WNBA.
• Player solidarity is at a high, trust in league leadership at a low: The CBA outcome and Engelbert’s ability to lead (or survive) are very much in question.
• Historic, competitive WNBA Finals: On-court action between Las Vegas and Phoenix is set against the backdrop of structural league upheaval off the court.

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For listeners:
This episode unpacks why the WNBA is at a true crossroads—both on the hardwood and in its boardrooms. If you care about the future of women’s sports, labor rights, and high-level, high-drama basketball, this is essential listening.

Transcript

[Zena Keda]

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[Dana]

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[Jeffrey]

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[Zena Keda]

Hello everyone and welcome to no Off Season presented by Amazon Business. I'm Zena Kaeda.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Ben Pickman]

And I'm Ben Pickman.

[Zena Keda]

And today on the show no, there's not therapy happening. I know Ben and Sabrina are looking very comfortable beside each other because they're in and preparing for the finals game because yeah, it's 2025 WNBA Finals and they're in Vegas together and I am so excited because we're going to break down this series, right? Phoenix Mercury going up against Las Vegas Aces squaring off game one. So much fun. There's been so much anticipation for this first seven game series ever. But of course I know some of you guys are waiting for something. Yeah, yeah, there was a. There's a little bit of news, a lot, a lot of stuff that happened earlier this week and we haven't talked about it yet. So yes, we are finally here. We're going to break some things down. Guys, what a week it has been in the wnba. What was the. Before, even before even the conversation. We're going to talk about the exit interview. What was the craziest news that you saw? Even before that?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I would say the 2 o' clock PM news dump that the Dallas Wings were firing Chris Coclanis right after Kurt Miller tweeted the Theodore Roosevelt man in the arena quote.

[Zena Keda]

Thank you. I had to check the time on.

[Sabrina Merchant]

This Kurt Miller quote, two to three minutes before the email came out.

[Zena Keda]

I was like, because, you know, on X is just like eight hours. And I was like, no, no, no. I got to actually check this. What is the point of this quote? Kurt Miller and midst of all of this craziness, you're just going to slide that in there, bro. You're just going to let us know. Ben, what'd you think?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, can I, can I run down some other. Some other news that came down? Okay, so we have Unrivaled is going to play in Philadelphia. They're going to make a tour stop there, but without Caitlin Clark. No Caitlin Clark in Unrivaled this year. That is news as of Thursday. The WWE Finals next year will be played in part on USA Today Network or USA Network.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Usa.

[Zena Keda]

Not USA Today for USA Network. You want to talk about someone that thought they were doing with the way they came out?

[Sabrina Merchant]

They had their 30 minutes of airtime before Nafisa Color was like, I got something to say.

[Zena Keda]

Oh, my. We were all like, yeah, 50 games. Double it up on Wednesdays. Woo. And then Nafisa scooted into a room and that's what we've got to get into. Wait, Ben, did you finish that list off, by the way?

[Ben Pickman]

No, that's. I think those are the big three or four items that we should consider.

[Zena Keda]

Oh, oh, oh, by the way, there was a game 5 also Indiana fever that went into overtime taking on the the Vegas Aces. It went to overtime and Kelsey Mitchell.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Had like a debilitating, you know, situation. It was very tense and scary and all sorts of things.

[Zena Keda]

Yes, yes. And I do Want you guys, if you have a moment to go read Kelsey Mitchell's statement after you know about her injury. There's a lot of, like, doctors that are chiming in on social media, talking about what she had. Muscle, degenerative, rhabdo. Like, this is a whole thing I'm learning now. But either way, the Indiana Fever had their exit interviews. Kelsey Mitchell, she is okay. She is recovering. But that is not even the biggest news that happened on that day. Not that overtime game in which the Aces were able to move on to the finals. It was Nafeesa Collier's comments. Now, we did not have an emergency pod. I know y' all were blowing up my DMs.

[Ben Pickman]

Like, where are you at?

[Zena Keda]

Where are y' all at? We gotta hear what Ben, Sabrina and Zena are saying about this. But that's because Ben and Sabrina were working behind the scenes to make sure that we had all of the information and also getting prepared for a Game five and also the finals. So now we're here, we've gathered our thoughts. Let's go ahead and dive in. So for those of you who have been under a rock, and that's okay. There's a lot going on in the world, so it's okay. Nafeesa Collier, WNBA All Star, five time runner up to the MVP this season, top three in the league, I would say, over the course of the last three years, without debate, she scooted into her exit interview. She was quite even out of breath because she had just got sat down at the podium. And she took the opportunity during her exit interview before the media asked her questions and called out WNBA leadership, specifically calling out Commissioner Kathy Engelbert for a whole bunch of stuff. The inconsistent officiating, which we've touched on on this pod, player safety concerns, which we've touched on on this podcast. Compensation, lack of accountability from leadership and communication, all of which we've touched on before. But it's now a player saying this little different. So we're going to get into it all. And I think the top line that sums up everything about what Nafeesa said. And the thing is that everyone's kind of holding onto, digging their nails into is this quote.

[Sabrina Merchant]

We have the best players in the world. We have the best fans in the world, but right now, we have the worst leadership in the world.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, real quick, because I still vividly remember my jaw being connected to the floor when I heard this for the first time. Where were you guys when you heard this and what was running through your head?

[Sabrina Merchant]

So I was eating breakfast in Las Vegas before Game 5 of the semifinals, had an omelette. It was nice. Then I look at my slack because I was still trying to figure out the USA Network situation, right? Like our WNBA Finals games getting moved to cable. Like, what's happening? And then Ben just text in the slack, like, V is cooking all caps.

[Zena Keda]

I love it.

[Ben Pickman]

I feel like that's all that kind of needed to be said, right? Like, she sat down and I think it took me, I think within the first like 30 seconds to a minute, I knew that this was going to be something because she started to talk about officiating, she started to talk about transparency. She started to talk about, you know, sustainability of the business. She then went into, you know, we're going to talk about all this on the show. Some private conversations or a private conversation she had with Kathy Engelbert last February at Unrivaled. And then she voiced the worst leadership in the world line. And I'm basically sending like quotes back to our news Slack channel and saying, I'm going to jump on this because this felt like a big deal. And you know, sometimes we wait for these press conferences to develop before starting to write. And we're trying to get a sense, is this news or is this not? But I think we knew right away this is gonna be something. And sure enough, Zena, this was very much something and then some.

[Zena Keda]

Well, I love that you are the one to tell Sabrina, because the way I found out is because of our other co host that'll be joining us eventually during the college season, Shantelle Jennings. She just wrote, I think in all caps, Fee. And I just. I was actually prepping for a panel I had to do and I was like typing and looking at stuff and I just get the notific and I'm like, what? I immediately pick up my phone, look through, and someone recorded it and posted it. And I don't remember what account it was, but I was just like, what? And the thing about it is that we in the media, we as fans of the sport, whatever, like NBA players were like, whoa. Executives. Like other everyone was just like, we don't. This is unprecedented. That's been the word that's been like thrown around with this. It's unprecedented in the way that she called out the league, but especially the shot that she was taking, particularly at one person, Kathy Engelbert. And let's be clear, so far, Fee has had overwhelming support for her comments, especially from her fellow players. We have seen people retweet, we've seen the queen Fee from paige, we've seen 10 out of 10, no notes from Angel. We've seen Brianna Stewart say that, you know, she's on board with Fee, is saying Lexi Hall. I mean, there was a slew since she's come out and said her words of players that have said, yeah, she's representing us, our thoughts and what we believe. So we got to break this down because she's saying that we've got the worst leadership. Why do you guys think that the players consider Kathy such a, quote, bad leader?

[Ben Pickman]

I think a lot of what Fee was talking about was not Kathy Engelbert the business person. Because to Kathy Engelbert's credit, the WMB business has changed a lot over the last six years since she took over as commissioner. Right. They had the 75 million dollar capital raise. If you think about expansion fees, it was $50 million to Golden State Valkyries in September 2023 this summer. The three teams that will join in 28, 29 and 30 up to $250 million as an expansion fee, they have this 2.2 billion dollar, 11 year media rights deal that's coming into effect next year. Those are all positive signs about the change of the business. But I think what was so striking about what Nafisa Collier said was she really came out ideas again. Honesty, transparency, accountability. Accountability.

[Zena Keda]

These are like values. This is character here.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, exactly like, and she was very much coming at the character of Kathy Engelbert. That's exactly right. And she did it so forcefully, again, saying that she's the worst leader, like, in the world. I mean, you can't. She basically said everything that you can say, minus saying Kathy Engelberg should be fired right now. Like, that was basically what Nafisa Collier said. And you know, so many players have for so long been frustrated with Kathy Engelbert, especially amid these CBA negotiations. And you would expect tensions to be high when There is an October 31st CBA deadline that is looming. When they're in the course of this negotiation, which comes at a very pivotal point in the league, but we've seen tense negotiations before. Again, the. The strength, the power, the transparency, like with our comments. That is why this was such a seminal moment in WNBA history, frankly, not just in this season's history.

[Zena Keda]

I'd say sports history. Yeah, I don't, I don't know of any. I was literally trying to think of who. I went live on Instagram, y'. All. That's how crazy this was for me. I've gone live twice for Luka Doncic being traded to the Lakers and this situation. And when I was trying to think about like Sabrina, I was like, okay, Ennis can of freedom calling out the NBA for their relationships with Turkey and China. Mahmoud Abdul Raf calling out the NBA, or excuse me, not even calling out the NBA, calling out the American flag and saying that it was a symbol of oppression. And then Gabby Williams calling out the WNBA's prioritization rule. But none of these things amount to what Nafisa did. Now you wrote a piece about Kathy's tenure and what she's done. And I feel like while we can say, yes, things have been done and it's important to acknowledge things have been done, why are the players not considering this when they're evaluating her as a good or bad leader? Or are they? You've been able to talk to folks too.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, I think a lot of it is because of the state that we're in right now with the current CBA negotiations and how the league is going to progress from this seminal moment that we're at. Right. Like it was one thing for the league to somewhat devalue the players contributions to the business back in 2019 when the business model was very different and it was a matter of sustainability versus growth. Now you're in a period where record revenues, record TV viewership, record attendance, record merchandise sales, record everything, right. And there is still an attempt to devalue what the players bring to the business. So when you combine that with, you know, what Ben was saying before about the character and like Nafisa Collier not getting a call from the commissioner, instead getting a call from her number two saying our data says that the injuries are not caused by, you know, referee decisions or Elena Deladon saying that she didn't get a call when she was, you know, announcing her retirement. And like this is a multi time MVP at Olympic gold medalist, a WNBA champion, not even getting a note from the commissioner acknowledging that she's, you know, ending her basketball career. So I think that like lack of tact combined with the lack of respect they feel in this particular moment sort of boils together.

[Ben Pickman]

And there was just a specificity like to the, to Fee's recollection of the conversation she had with Kathy Engelbert. I think the specificity of that conversation really resonated with a lot of people.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And the words that she used, right. Like they should be on their knees thanking us for the media rights deal. Right? Like that is insanely heavy of a statement to make.

[Ben Pickman]

And we should say like, you know, she talked about officiating Kathy Engelbert saying that, quote, only losers complain about the refs. Like that was Fee's recollection of what, what the commissioner said. You know, that is a sentiment that I think, you know, some people around the league have heard in other forms, if not directly from Kathy Engelbert. Now we should say that Kathy Engelbert, in a statement when, you know, reflecting on what Nafisa Collier said, said she was disheartened by the characterization, we should note that that is not a denial. Not a denial, just disheartened by the characterization.

[Zena Keda]

Doesn't sound like it. Exactly. When usually statements come out, you say, that is not what I said category. If you had the opportunity, that's exactly.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Something that the WNBA has used that verbiage this week too.

[Zena Keda]

So this is not all cast. O sorry, we're derailing. Listen to the last show to know what we're talking about, guys.

[Ben Pickman]

The moment that I think also resonates was the exchange too of Nafisa Collier bringing up Caitlin Clark. And we should say that Nafisa Collier and Caitlin Clark have the same representation. Right? So it's not a total coincidence in my mind that, you know, Fee voice Caitlin Clark because presumably Caitlin Clark's camp knew that Fee was going to do that because some of their camp is the same camp. That's important here. But by bringing up Caitlin Clark and basically saying that the commissioner said like, yes, Caitlin Clark might make $16 million, that was the number that was thrown out in off court money, but it was what, like she should be grateful. She should be grateful for the WNBA's platform. In other words, that really pits the players and you know, the highest profile player, the player that, you know, is so responsible, you know, it plays a central role in the changing economics of the game. It pits players and this figurehead player and all the people who follow the sport now because of that one player, Caitlin Clark, against one other person, Kathy Engelbert. And so, you know, in a normal CPA negotiation, you have the players versus the league. And just by looping in Caitlin Clark there, you know, all of just the Caitlin fans who have come to the league because of her, it pits them against the league. It creates an even stronger block amongst the players. I think, you know, it poured lighter fluid on the fire of her comments. Her comments would have been big otherwise. But, you know, they've taken off to an even other degree because she brought in this dynamic. And you know, I've had some people on Tuesday afternoon and on Wednesday, we've thrown out the hypothetical who would be. Or who is more important to the league's next 15 years, for instance. Right? Kathy Engelbert. And we'll see how long she lasts with the league. That's a whole nother topic. Or Caitlin Clark. And I think pretty unequivocally everyone would say Caitlin Clark, the player, is more important to the future of the league than Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner. Even though in Kathy Engelbert's comments, the recollection of fee. Of this conversation, Kathy Engelbert makes it seem like, no, the league, the shield, is more important than the player.

[Zena Keda]

What's interesting about this is you can look at some of the things that Kathy Engelbert has done for the business, and whether you evaluate the money and the deals and the way in which they were set up and what they were used to pay for, you can evaluate whether that was a good use of that money or whatever. But the fact of the matter is the money is there. That wasn't there before. So you gotta give back credit to Kathy Engelbert from that perspective. Now, the character element, some folks are like, well, Adam Silver ain't hitting up every player that gets hurt, or he's not. Or Roger Goodell in the NFL isn't hitting up every player that gets hurt. But there is something to be said about the manners in which Adam Silver and Roger Goodell interact with their players. Watch the NBA draft. I'm gonna tell you right now, Adam Silver has practiced the handshake, okay? He knows exactly how to dap these players up. Roger Goodell, same thing, right? Like, we look at the ways in which the super bowl, the acts that have been happening since Jay Z and Roc Nation became a part of the Super Bowl. That's a whole nother conversation of how you feel about that. But the point is, Roger Goodell, Robert Manfred, Adam Silver, these big commissioners that we know of other leagues, they have found a way to be in relation with the players. But what's interesting about this, and I want to ask you guys about this, is Kathy's job is not necessarily to be representative of the players, right? Like, she's supposed to be representative of the owners and the NBA. So I'm curious how you guys feel that relationship plays out in terms of what. What the players are asking for from Kathy and also her duty to the NBA and ensuring that the owners are represented, especially in this dynamic of the CBA conversation.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, you're absolutely right. Kathy answers to the Board of Governors. She answers to Adam Silver and the NBA in the same way that Adam Silver answers to the Board of Governors and not the NBA players. Right. But there is a way to, I think, massage all of those egos at once that Adam Silver seemingly figured out. At least the players seem to be pretty happy with him, even though he's not their boss. Right. But Kathy Engelbert hasn't quite figured out that middle ground of how to effectively represent the players and also answer to the interest of the Board of Governors. I think about last season when she was asked about the cyberbullying and all of the hateful rhetoric online with regards to Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark. And she said, well, a little rivalry is good for everyone. And again, it's just not meeting the moment of how to represent the players while also thinking about the broader business of the league, in which case rivalry probably is good for the business of the league, but that's not what was needed in that specific instance. Right. So, you know, when you are the public face of the league and you represent these players, like, there just has to be a better public messaging that she has not been able to strike the balance of. And I think that's where a lot of the difficulties come.

[Ben Pickman]

But I think the other thing that was unearthed or highlighted in V's comments was some of this dynamic with the NBA. And that was definitely something that I know I've heard a lot of over the last couple days from people around the league, players, executives, agents, you know, all these people around the league. Because Kathy Engelbert was hired by Adam.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Silver, first commissioner in WNBA history.

[Ben Pickman]

She is the first commissioner and assigned that title. Previously, people who ran the WNBA were just called the league president.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Right.

[Ben Pickman]

And so kind of commissioner was a change because it denotes a level of standing that puts you on par with the names. You know, you just mentioned, the Goodell's, the Manfreds, the Gary Bettman's, the, you know, the Adam Silvers. And so you think of her very much in the same way, but in the general WNBA ecosystem, she from what we understand, you know, things are different than the NFL. Right. Because again, and we've talked about this over the summer at length as it relates to the WNBA business. The WNBA, 42% of it is owned by the NBA, 42% of it is owned By WNBA owners, 16% is owned by people who invested in the capital raise, the $75 million capital raise. And there are overlapping, you know, parties in each of those groups. Right. Some people are NBAW, some people are NBA capital raise, etc. So that kind of further muddles the situation. And what we have also seen this summer is a number of other topics in which the complexities of the league structure, the WNBA structure have come about. Right. Examples being what is going on with the Connecticut sun and the potential involvement of the NBA and the NBA Board of Governors and NBA leadership as it relates to where that team is going to play. We've seen the expansion teams in 20, 28, 29 and 30. I mean, I point blank asked Kathy Engelbert this at the press conference when they announced the teams of what is the message that sends to independent groups who are looking to bid because the teams in Cleveland, Detroit and Philadelphia all have NBA ownership ties. We've seen it now with officiating. Right. That NBA. The head of NBA officiating is Monty McCutcheon. He also oversees WNBA officiating. And we think about the trainings that go on or the standards or the NBA refs account weighing in on the Alyssa Thomas, Nafisa Collier play or. And we've done reporting on this in the past how from 2018 to 2022, the NBA in official press releases when they, you know, were to designate changes in referee assignments, they used the word promotes when they referred to refs who were going from the WNBA and the G League to the NBA. It's all like one big pot, one big ecosystem. And Fee's comments really, I think highlighted the messiness, but also the, I don't know, the situation, the current ecosystem of.

[Sabrina Merchant]

The W. Yeah, I mean she's calling out Kathy Engelbert, but a lot of these things that she's referring to, I'm not even sure Kathy Engelbert has the jurisdiction to fix those things.

[Zena Keda]

That's exactly what I was trying to get to. I wonder how much is she just the face of these issues versus the actual, you know, person that has her hands in the mix. Sorry for interrupting.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Because you know, you can call out Kathy because of the comments she made or Nafisa's recollection of the comments that she made about Caitlin Clark and you know, rookie salaries or their. The players gratefulness for the TV deal. Right. And that is all directly at Kathy. But when we're talking about the leadership of the wnba, it is not just Kathy Engelbert. It is Adam Silver and the board of governors. And they all take equal blame or fault or you know, credit for what the league has become over the last few years.

[Ben Pickman]

And we should say like in all sports, commissioners serve as punching bags in some respects. Right?

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Ben Pickman]

Whether that is for.

[Sabrina Merchant]

At the draft, you know.

[Ben Pickman]

Right, right.

[Zena Keda]

Yep.

[Ben Pickman]

Or, or they're punching bags for the owners. You know, if there's, you know, if there's messy situations going on, like, one of the reasons why Roger Goodell, what, get paid 50 or 60 million dollars a year, some crazy number, is because, like, he stands up there and he basically takes it. Right. And he keeps it moving. I think one of the questions.

[Zena Keda]

$40 million a year.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah. One of the questions that I think we have, and we're trying to figure this out when we talk to people, is in some respects, like, is the. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Right. Like Kathy Engelbert, the business has undoubtedly changed in her tenure. Now, you can argue, as many players do, that is in large part because of the players. But that goes back to some of the CBA conversation and conversations about, you know, Caitlin and Paige and angel and others. But like, if, if all she is, and I'm not saying this is all she is, but hypothetically, if all she is is middle management, so to speak, then like, you know, is the frustration from players worth it? And that, I think, is one of the questions that a lot of people are asking around the league, ourselves included, depending on her responsibilities, depending on how much agency she has, depending on how much power she actually has. And power and control were two other words that Fee used. Is the discontent? Is the heightened tensions between players and Cathy, Is it worth it? Is it needed? Or is other change inevitable in the future?

[Zena Keda]

Now, my question to you is, who is asking that question? Is it the owners asking that question? Is it worth it? Is it the players asking that question? What perspective are you taking that from?

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's a little bit of everyone, honestly.

[Zena Keda]

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[Dana]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[Jeffrey]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Dana]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T Mobile commercial like you. Teach me. So, Dana.

[Jeffrey]

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[Zena Keda]

Nice.

[Jeffrey]

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[Dana]

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[Zena Keda]

Okay, so I want to keep it going and, and call out something that we can say, Kathy fixed this. But it isn't just Kathy. There's other people involved in this. You just listed one. Ben Monte McCutcheon talking about the officiating issues. Let's hear what she had to say about the role that leadership plays in that league.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Talks about sustainability. This is about sustainability. How are you going to protect your players? How are you going to make sure that we have the best product on the floor night after night when it's so inconsistent and people are getting hurt left and right?

[Zena Keda]

So Nafisa is clearly tying officiating inconsistencies to injuries to which the league likes to trot out. That their data that none of us have seen and none of us have been able to verify doesn't support this. This is not just a Cathy thing. I mean, literally, Fee's coach, Sheryl Reeve, just called for the job of the person that is actually in charge of this. Maybe a few days before Fee. I mean, they just built on top of each other. It was really just this masterpiece.

[Sabrina Merchant]

The throwing the light fluid and then Fee just lit the match.

[Zena Keda]

And then lit the match. I mean, it was just like, literally, that's exactly what happened.

[Ben Pickman]

And yet. Did anyone hear anything? I mean, I was on it But Cheryl Reeves her exit interview. Because, like, I had, I had a GM on Tuesday afternoon who was like, so did Cheryl give her exit interview today? And I told this person, I'm like, yeah, but like, nothing really of note happened in it. This person was like, yeah, I was looking for quotes. I was like, for anything. I was like.

[Sabrina Merchant]

She basically said like, fi is a good, a great spokesperson for this league.

[Zena Keda]

You know, and that's it. And that, you know, sometimes you don't have to do too much, right? Because she already did a lot.

[Sabrina Merchant]

She made her statement, she already had.

[Zena Keda]

Her profanity laced situation, you know, after game three, and she got what she needed out. And then she said, vy, you got it, you go with it, pass the ball. No profanity needed. It was incredibly eloquent how Nafeesa Collier was able to get her words out and her thoughts out here. But let's talk about this, this officiating inconsistency because we just also relayed the connection in between the NBA and the wnba. And who comes out and makes a statement about the officiating in connection to, you know, Nafeesa Collier's comments? Mark Cuban. Mark Cuban talking about or offering his insight as to what happens with these referees. They're coming from the G League. Or that the training is inconsistent. He offered his own thoughts on this. This seems to be like a larger thing than just the wnba. This is a refereeing issue within the ecosystem of the NBA, wnba. And I'm curious, what could the league do? And this is the league, NBA, WNBA altogether. What could the league do to change this and fix this situation, to buy some goodwill with the players, to say, hey, we do care about this product. We do care about your injuries and potential injuries, even though we say they're not connected. We do care about you guys potentially getting hurt from missed calls, et cetera. Here's what we're going to do. X what would that X you think need to be in order for the players to be like, okay, okay, we see what you're doing.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think it's really clear. It's just more investment in the officiating program. You know, we're talking about officials who don't get paid the same amount as their counterparts in the NBA. They're not full time salaried employees. They don't get benefits. So they have to work jobs throughout the year, which means they're officiating WNBA games and college basketball games and other leagues. And that is basically three different jobs, you know, that require three different styles of officiating so naturally just affects your ability to ref a game in any individual circumstance. So when you're talking about a referee who just isn't compensated the same, they're by definition not as good as the ones who are in the NBA, right? So what you need to do is like standardize training, standardize their accountability procedures, you know, make sure that everybody knows what calls they're getting right, what calls they're getting wrong. Like publicize those last two minute reports, potentially make their jobs easier by instituting the replay center, you know, so they're not handling literally everything at the, you know, crunch time of the game. It just, it seems very clear to me that like, if you just put more money into this, officiating would get better because more people would think of it as a desirable destination to want to be a WNBA ref and you would get the best possible applicants, which is just not the case right now.

[Ben Pickman]

I think all of the points Sabrina makes are super valid, but to me they're even like, Those are steps 2, 3 and 4 for I think what the players want in this situation. The first thing the players want is for the league to admit that they have a problem that needs to be fixed. Because I think there is a in, you know, an insistence, a hesitance, a conviction. You know, if we're going to give the league credit, like they say that they're seem, you know, they're the best.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Referees in the world. That's what if he said, right.

[Ben Pickman]

And you know, Monty McCutcheon. I did a story two years ago at this time at the Finals, I think, I guess I think I might have actually even been in this very spot in a Las Vegas hotel room filing that story, finishing the reporting on that story. You know, the league insists that they have elite officials and we should say, like, it's really hard to, to officiate. And we, me and Sabrina and Eusina, I'm going to speak for you on this one. Like, we're not envious of being in those roles. And it's, I'm sure they get, you know, the vast majority of calls, right? Because think about how many calls are made on a given game. And yet, like, players want the league to take, again, some accountability and, or just reflect in an honest way. And that was again another sentiment that Fee had that might be step one and then steps two through however many are all the things Sabrina just rattled off, right?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Because we've talked about like freedom of movement and what style of play that officiating should be supporting. And I think there's some, you know, obviously the conversation has gone into, well, it's gotten way too physical at the WNBA level. And like I've expressed on this show before that I think physicality is not necessarily a bug, but it has to be Restra trained, you know, just with consistent officiating. But like, like Ben said, you know, there has to be an acknowledgment that, like, hey, we have an officiating issue first before you can address any of that. And then you can get to, well, is it getting too physical? What are some other things we can, you know, look towards? And I think a lot of it just comes back to this overarching point of like WNBA keeps saying we're bringing in more and more revenue, more and more revenue. Like, where is it all going, right? If it's not going into improving the officiating experience, if it's not going into improving the player experiencing, if it's not going into the digital product where like I go on wn.com and I can't check the box score of a playoff game on their own website. Like, I would be just so freaking upset if I were a player to not know where all of this hard earned cash is actually being used towards.

[Zena Keda]

And it's really hard now to hide behind it. Right? Like you, you could say back in the day that, oh, we just got this capital raise or we just, you know, got a certain amount of money and we've put it towards data or we've put it towards our technology on the site. Like more and more fans are starting to pick up and do mental math easy of, well, the tickets cost $100 and we just sold out. Everyone has sold out their arenas on average. There's a stupid amount of money that's being made here just off tickets alone. And we're talking about jerseys selling out. We're talking about merch going through the roof. Like expansion fees, right? Expansion fees, right? You go from 50 million, which by the way, that 50 million shout out to Kathy, I'll give her this, help pay for the flights. But these were the same flights that you said you couldn't do a year before that you just, you couldn't make it happen and you were able to make it happen. And by the way, I just want to really quickly say the quote. If you did not hear what Mark Cuban or read what Mark Cuban said, he said, look at how they hire and train new officials, look at how they promote new officials and from where refs get trained in the G League, referencing the G League for the NBA. If they aren't good there because there's very little investment made in training them there, how are they going to be good when they get to the WNBA or NBA? Exactly what Sabrina was mentioning.

[Ben Pickman]

And all this is why, like, I think Nafeesa Collier's four and a half minutes was so significant, because there are so many tentacles. I mean, we're more a half hour into this show and we could talk about this, you know, for much, much longer. We've had plenty of conversations throughout the week about various specific elements of what she has said. And she found a way through her comments to weave all of these things together in a concise and specific and direct message that clearly is resonating with a lot of people. And you can debate the veracity or the, you know, the truth to some of her comments. Certainly some people at the league office disagree with some of her sentiments, but she certainly did. It was a masterclass in creating a narrative, in framing a narrative, in coming up with a way to try and loop all of these things together in a way that is concise, in a way that does make sense because it so much does tie back to the business and, you know, the CBA and refereeing it all is a part of. Right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Wrapped up in this nice bow of leadership and accountability and transparency. And the players just want to know what is happening at the league level and how they can benefit from their contribution to it.

[Zena Keda]

Right. Right. Okay, we gotta. I know we've been talking for so long about this. We have other things that we need to get to, but I just, I do want to dive into, particularly. You already mentioned this quote, Ben, and I want to play it. It's the one that's about Caitlin and it's about the players getting on their knees to thank their lucky stars.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Her response was, caitlin should be grateful she makes 16 million off the court because without the platform that the WNBA gives her, she wouldn't make anything. And in that same conversation, she told me players should be on their knees thanking their lucky stars for the meteorites deal that I got them.

[Zena Keda]

Now, I cannot imagine this being said to LeBron James. I can't imagine this being said to Michael Jordan. Can't imagine this being said to Kobe Bryant. Let's just keep going back in time before the league was what it is at that point. I can't imagine this being said to Earvin Johnson or Larry Bird or. Let's go all the way back. So Wilt. Okay. I can't imagine this being said to players that were Dominating and clearly the. The focal point of why this league was an interesting, I don't know, barnyard type of thing. You wanted to go support way back when. The league is not some spectacle that people are making fun of or people are like going to because they have nothing else to do. People are bought in. People are invested into this league. And it's because of these players and the way that they show up and the way that they participate and the way that they awe audiences. I cannot imagine saying this to any of the men as the NBA was growing. And yet the commissioner has said this about Caitlin Clark.

[Ben Pickman]

Pernafisa Collier.

[Zena Keda]

Yes, Pernafisa Collier. Allegedly. Thank you. Per Nafisa Collier. You guys are such reporters. I love it. I also am looking at this like this is so wrong. Like that money was made and put in place before she ever touched a WNBA court. Right. In terms of her Nike deal and all her nil deals before that. And that can be said about the Page and Angel and everyone else that Nafisa was referring to in terms of the young talent. And all of these players have shown that you can open up gyms, but you can't just put anybody out on the court. You got to put out these players that have contributed to the success of this league, to the way that people have completely bought in to this product. How, how. How do we. How do we get back from this? How does. How can Kathy come back from this? And how does this point that Kathy has allegedly said, according to NFISA impact CBA discussions?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think you just deny that's how you come back from this because there's no validity to what she said about, you know, Caitlin Page, Angel. So much of their popularity was generated when they were in high school, you know, when they were in college. Right. They are singular superstars before having even touched WNBA basketball. And their, you know, star power, their ability to command sponsorship dollars is not related to their WNBA abilities. I can tell you that it's not hurt by it, but it's not because of it. And it goes back to the general idea of does the league respect what the players are bringing to the table? And comments like these suggest no. I think a lot about Donald Sterling and the Clippers back in the day when they were talking about boycotting the games because they were the ones who put the product on and not Donald Sterling and who actually creates the game. And it's obviously the players. The players are the one who are creating the business. And it's just a consistent pattern of failing to give the players credit for their contributions.

[Ben Pickman]

And we should say. I mean, Sabrina talked to Kelsey Plumb, one of the vice presidents of the union, earlier this week, and Plumb still described the talks as combative. I mean, she said they were, what, nowhere near they need to be.

[Sabrina Merchant]

She seems like every time we submit a proposal and a counter proposal, we're further apart than when we started.

[Zena Keda]

Right. She said the more we present, the further we are.

[Ben Pickman]

Her appetizer analogy.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, yeah, because obviously there's a lot of issues on the table for the cba. You're talking about maternity and travel and benefits and retirement and all that. And I asked Kelsey, like, where are you at on any of those other issues? Because we talk so much about revenue share and salary. Right. And she says, sabrina, if we go to dinner, but we're at different restaurants, what does it matter what we order for an appetizer?

[Zena Keda]

Oh, that's so good. I love Kelsey Plum. That's good.

[Ben Pickman]

We'll really see what happens here. I mean, I had a story that went up on the site on Thursday that, yes, you know, tried to get into this idea of what does a work stoppage look like? What were the potential consequences be. And one of the tacks I took in the reporting of that story was to try and talk to some people from other sports leagues about 10 CBA negotiations and see if there are any similarities. And one of the, I think, strongest similarities that, you know, I was told and explored in the piece was to the NHL, the National Hockey League in the 1990s, because in the early 90s, the NHL went through this period of rapid expansion. It went, you know, up to 26 teams. It had six teams that it added within a three year span. It moved into new markets like South Florida. There was a famous Sports illustrated cover in 1994 that said it had the tag on the NHL's hot. Why the NHL is hot and the NBA is not. The NHL was the cool league, and the NBA's image had cooled. And in 1994, the NHL, much like the WNBA right now, went through a tense negotiation in which salary structure, salary system was a key point of contention. And in the NHL, they ended up missing games. 103 days, 468 total games, the 94, 95 season. And, you know, I had someone who worked at the NHL, Pennsylvania and negotiated that deal. He told me that, like, there was this incredible momentum in the league at that time. And I. He said that I think it took, you know, years for the NHL to catch back up. That momentum fizzled. Out. And we saw that because attendance dipped, there was significant resentment between the players and the league, even more so than before. The NHL happened to also then enter into what was called the dead puck era, this era of offensive decline where the product was just worse and it all coalesced with them having a total missed season in 2004, I believe. And so you don't want that if you are the wnba, right? You're in this moment of momentum, you're in this moment of growth. You're fighting over salary systems. You don't want to miss games now, and you certainly don't want to miss a season, you know, eight years from now. Say, when they're talking about all these issues again.

[Sabrina Merchant]

That headline is so apt because how often have you heard people say this summer, like, the WNBA is hot and the NBA is not right.

[Zena Keda]

Not right. Yeah, and I also appreciate it. You know, you talk about the NHL in that article, but the resounding theme here between MLB also having a similar experience was that things cooled in terms of the support or the buzz around these leagues, and that is not what the WNBA wants now. I love reading the comments on your articles because I also like to hear what other people think. It was interesting. One comment was like, well, don't think that WNBA fans are just going to chill out or basically not buy in like some of these other leagues fans. Like, these fans are really invested and they want to make this work. And so I was like, that is very interesting to see in the court of public opinion. A lot of fans are going to be really upset if there's not a league by next year.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's important to point out that, like, WNBA fans have other opportunities to see their favorite WNBA players in action in a way that NHL and Major League Baseball did not. Right. Like, I'm coming into Vegas this morning and there is an upper unrivaled billboard on the way into the strip where the WNBA Finals are happening tomorrow. So there are options, you know, that the WNBA players have that are just different from a leverage perspective compared to other men's sports in particular.

[Zena Keda]

Another comment I saw unrivaled potentially going five by five rather than three on three. And I was like, ooh, this could get messy on the work stoppage front. I just want to make sure that everyone here understands the timeline. So Halloween is not going to be the only scary night because of what's going out on the streets. Okay? It could be really scary because that's the deadline, right? So, Ben, break us down on like the work stoppage I think you did a really great job of laying out what could happen also by that October 31st deadline.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, there's a lot of scenarios here. I mean, some of them include them reaching an extension. And what an extension is is, you know, the way it was described to me by a few people is it is this public signaling both to fans but also to stakeholders that we're continuing to negotiate and we're doing it in good faith and we want to get a deal done. They also could not reach an extension and they could continue to negotiate. There are scenarios down the road about the WNBA trying to implement a what would be called the last best offer. And in that situation, then you could see the players vote to strike. Potentially, there is a long shot, long shot, long shot. This very much like is unlikely to happen. But we saw it in Major League baseball in the 1994 strike that they had where you could start a season with an expired CBA and players could elect to strike in the middle of a year. Like, that's what happened in baseball in the mid-90s that led to the cancellation of a World Series. We saw in the NBA in 2011, the NBPA actually briefly dissolved 12 days before they ended up reaching a new contract. And that often, you know, in some respects, the way it was relayed to me, that's almost a legal tactic. It allowed them to file a number of lawsuits they wouldn't have otherwise been able to file as a players union, and they ended up reaching a deal, you know, a little more than a week later. So there are all these different permutations. There's all these different scenarios that could happen going forward. And look, I think it's just a matter of we'll wait and see and we'll wait and see. I think the one thing as we round this conversation out is the tensions are really high and there is no sign that they're going to cool down anytime soon, especially as these WNBA Finals loom. It is really the thing that is hovering over this entire series.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Right. And as we start game one tonight on Friday, Kathy Engelbert delivers her annual State of the Union address before Game one. And you can imagine there will be some questions about Nafisa Collier's comments.

[Zena Keda]

I don't know the last time I've been this excited to hear a State of the Union address in general, but I'm just saying, like, particularly one from the WNBA league president or commissioner, now that Kathy is here.

[Ben Pickman]

Oof.

[Sabrina Merchant]

This is.

[Zena Keda]

This is tough. This is tough. But you know what's tougher Game one of the WNBA Finals and that's happening very soon. So we gotta break that down on the other side of this break. Don't go anywhere foreign.

[Ben Pickman]

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[Dana]

Morning Zoe. Got donuts.

[Jeffrey]

Jeff Bridges why are you still living above our garage?

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[Jeffrey]

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[Zena Keda]

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[Zena Keda]

Okay, guys, the moment's here. Game one kicks off tonight, 8:00pm Eastern in Las Vegas, where Ben and Sabrina are. And Las Vegas Aces taking on the Phoenix Mercury. It will be the first WNBA finals played as a best of seven series. As Kah Copper said in her media availability, I almost got thrown off when she said, gotta win four. I was like, four? Is she talking about like Asia Wilson's MVPs? It's hard to catch up on that.

[Ben Pickman]

I had someone with one of the two teams be like, I'm excited to be part of the first best of seven. And I said, yeah, you're still gonna be excited if you're up 3:1. Like, I think you'll probably be wishing at that point the series is over. But I digress. Seen her keep going.

[Zena Keda]

No, that's true. That's true. Well, either way, I'm very excited to see how one the extension of a series, what impact that has. We know depth and availability is so huge in these playoffs. We saw what happened with the fever just, you know, right before this last semifinal. So Sabrina, Ben, what are the vibes in Vegas other than that unrivaled sign?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I think what I am most interested in is how are the Las Vegas Aces going to guard the size of the Phoenix Mercury? I think the vibes are good from both teams. I think both teams have tried to focus on the series amid all the other things that we have just spent the first part of this episode talking about. They both seem genuinely focused on the task at hand. And from a basketball perspective, again, to me, a lot of this is going to come down to satu. Sable, I think might be the pivot player in this series. I mean, Phoenix has lost two games this postseason. She scored nine and 10 points respectively. Those are her lowest two scoring output games of the playoffs. And it's not a coincidence because, you know, we hear the term unicorn thrown out. But her skill set, her size, you know, satu. Like, she towers over a lot of players. And I think it's deceptive even on TV sometimes because she doesn't post up. She posts up. Less than 10% of her shots are post up attempts and she is 6 4. Like she could theoretically post up players on any given possession, but that very much is not her game. And so for me it's how effective will Chelsea Gray, will Jackie Young these guards be when they are guarding Satus Aboli. If they're switched on to Satus Aboli, like I would expect a lot of Asia guarding at that's going to be a matchup to watch, certainly. And, you know, the other guard of choice of the the Aces is going to try and slow down Kalia Copper. But if SATU has a big series, I think it makes Phoenix really, really dangerous.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I think the. The size is so interesting and that causes just so much cross matching because like you said, Asia's probably going to guard Alyssa Thomas. But Natasha Mack guards Asia Wilson and Monica Kohl McConney guards Jackie Young within Jackie Young guards Kalia Copper. And so transition is going to be so interesting because you got to get your matchups right. Who benefits from, like, who's matching up with whom? Las Vegas transition defense has been like one of their points of contention throughout the whole postseason. It was really hard for them to get back against Indiana. I mean, Indiana was just getting up off of makes, like not even in transition. They were just pushing the ball up off of dead balls. So I think that, you know, just adds another layer to it because not only do you have to get back against a team like Phoenix that pushes the ball so well in transition, where you have Alyssa Thomas who can just grab and go and make so many different plays on the break, now you also have to worry about all of these matchups to keep in mind because again, like, Phoenix has all of this size where Satu Sabley is there three right. And she's six foot four. And you're looking at a Vegas team that, like, often likes to play small, where Chelsea Gray is their power forward and she's, you know, 5 11. So it's. It's just a very interesting battle of strengths there.

[Ben Pickman]

And Phoenix has scored. They score the fourth most points per game. Fast break points per game. Nearly 15% of their points are scored in transition. And the thing especially in game one, I'm curious about and Becky Hammond harked on this after their game five victory, and she stressed it again on Thursday was, look, Phoenix is a different challenge. Like, they look, as Sabrina was talking about, very different than the Indiana Fever, their lineups, how they, you know, how they substitute players. Phoenix uses their starters less than any other team in the league because they just, you know, have a strong bench and they have trust in their benchmark. And so think about transition defense and the challenge that AT can create because she is such a unique player. Like, you know, it's. It might be hard to Anticipate the Alyssa Thomas transition attack or what Phoenix looks like now. We should say the Aces beat the Mercury.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Three times.

[Ben Pickman]

Three times. I mean, every time Asia Wilson played.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Las Vegas won the game. Which is what makes this so fascinating because Vegas has home court advantage, they have the regular season advantage, and yet they're just not playing as well as Phoenix is. So how much stock do you ride into? Okay, well, during the regular season, during August when Vegas was on that 16 game winning streak, they delivered two losses to the Mercury. But also, you know, Phoenix just took out New York and Minnesota, last two's finalists, last year's finalists in back to back series. Right. And admittedly there were injury issues there, but they, you know, battled back from a 20 point deficit against Minnesota when a piece of color was on the court. Right. And they beat New York when Brianna Stewart was on the court, given all she had in that game three elimination game. So it's hard to reconcile those two competing interests where all of the on paper structural advantages would be like, yeah, Vegas 31 regular season series like home court advantage. A decisive game seven would happen in the global experience.

[Ben Pickman]

Right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

You know, this is the core of a team that has won two titles as recently as 2022 and 2023 with Becky Hammond as their head coach. And Nate Tibbets won his first playoff series this year. Right. And this is a Phoenix team that returns two players from last season and that was a team that went 19 and 21. So there's just a lot of newness on the Phoenix side. And it seems like they're discovering themselves every game. Right. Like the team that we saw at the end of the Minnesota series was almost different than the team we saw at the beginning of the Minnesota series. So their ability to evolve and adapt is so interesting compared to Vegas where we like, we kind of know what they've been since that loss to Minnesota. Right. That 53 point loss to Minnesota, I should say during the regular season.

[Zena Keda]

Well, I think it's interesting that you talk about the 3 1. The only game that was like a blowout was that last one. Right. The 8361 game in August.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Phoenix scoring total of the season. Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Everything else has been like a difference of like four points. So I'm sure Phoenix also has that circled on the fact that they almost had this team. You guys have been talking about the offense. I'm really happy you said that because I can talk about the defense aspect. You're talking about switching on to satu. Sabli, what about when SATU Does a switch with her guards or her posts, and that's who's in front of you. We saw Minnesota really struggle with their perimeter attack because bodies on bodies and length and size were switching out onto them on, on the perimeter and they struggled. And also Phoenix, second best rebounding in the playoffs in this team. Like, they find a way to the glass. And that is something too, when you talk about Las Vegas wants to have their tempo, they want to go and run. They're going to have to send folks to the glass, make sure they stop. They make stops as well. So this is going to be very interesting. So before we get into exactly what we're going to be looking at and what we're thinking for this series, you know, I got to do it, guys. These are our looks presented by ngm. Lock in for every basket with this WNBA SGP boost token. Use your token on any WNBA SGP and you'll score a bigger payout if your SGP wins. Okay, so we just laid out a lot of basketball stuff, but what are some storylines you're gonna be following most closely as we head into game one? I'm gonna go ahead and say, I, I don't even know if this is a storyline. It's just Asia Wilson. Asia Wilson continuing her dominant performance, taking this team to, I mean, completely flipping this team in the middle of the season to that 16 game win streak into these playoffs. Being able to meet the moment in these playoffs when her team needed it the most. Will she be able to continue that dominance against. Who knows? You said, you said Max gonna guard Asia Wilson. I think Tibbets might switch it up, have a little bit of at. And what would that look like, right? What would that MVP matchup look like? So that's what I'll be looking for. What are you guys looking at?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think, you know, on the other side of that, Asia Wilson has had a very decorated career, right? Already two championships, already four MVPs. You're looking at Alyssa Thomas, perennially a bridesmaid, right? Two misses in the finals, the last one coming against the Las Vegas Aces. And Asia Wilson. And you know, finals MVP Chelsea Gray at the time, she's never won an mvp. She's finished third to Asia Wilson this year. So I think her, you know, coming to Phoenix, starting this new chapter of her career, maybe starting a new arc, right, like where she gets to win the biggest prize. I think that's a very interesting, I think, major note for Phoenix, right? Like, is this the year of Alyssa Thomas, right? Like she set all of Those triple double records, she has basically remade the Mercury in her image, right? The entire team functions based on how Alyssa Thomas goes. And this would be the ultimate culmination of that, right? Like she gets to exercise those demons against the Aces from 2022 and lay her own stamp on what has been a very historically successful franchise in Phoenix.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I think there's a lot of history, you know, Sabrina talks about that is at stake in this series. The Las Vegas Aces, they would win their third title in four years. Only the Houston Comets have done that. We have seen, you know, what it means for Asia Wilson right now having won four MVP is to cap it off with another title. I mean, it only adds to her legacy. As you're talking about Sabrina for the Phoenix Mercury, think about the. I mean, they're almost ahead of schedule. You can argue, right? They have two, as Sabrina said, just two returning players. I think the next most team to ever make the finals in either the NBA or the WNBA in terms of roster turnover had six players from year over year. And they have two, right? Kalia Copper and Natasha Mack. They haven't won a title since 2014, but if they win this one, they will have won their fourth in franchise history. That will tie them with, you know, the comments, the links and the storm for number one in WNB history. And it's a, you know, an interesting example or I wonder what it means for team building going forward. Think about how big the, the Mercury have swung this past off season trying to add Thomas and Sable. So, you know, huge implications there. Can I throw out one fun storyline? Is that okay?

[Zena Keda]

I mean, the fun, there's, there's a ton here.

[Ben Pickman]

But yes, I mean, I can bet this one is not going to be on your bingo card. Xena.

[Zena Keda]

Let me see, let me see. Go ahead.

[Ben Pickman]

If we have any listeners from the state of South Dakota, please send me an email. Send Sabrina an email. Leave a comment on the show. Zena, any guests? Is why I'm bringing up the state of South Dakota.

[Zena Keda]

No, not even. And we have minimum time, so I'm not even going to try because this.

[Ben Pickman]

Series very much centers around two figures from the great state of South Dakota. Becky Hammond and Nate Tibbets. Both are from the state of South Dakota. Becky Hammond, born in the same year.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Grew up at the same time playing high school.

[Zena Keda]

We should say crazy. I need to remember that because I always think of Becky Hammond for Colorado because of where she went to school. But like, nope, South Dakota, Colorado State.

[Ben Pickman]

But same state where they grew up. We should Say in the state of South Dakota, across the state. And Becky Hammond even played against Nate Tibbets. His dad, Nate Tibbett's dad was an all time great high school coach, girls coach, and in the state of South Dakota once won, I think 111 straight games, tons of state championships, like an all time great hall of Fame coach. And Becky Hammond had played against him as a high schooler. And I asked her about it because she scored 33 points one game, 41 in. And he even compared her Fred Tibbets needs dad to a Magic Johnson level player in high school. So this series a big win for the state of South Dakota. When I was talking to Becky about it on Thursday, she just started to rattle off the pride that, you know, South Dakotans feel when they go on to achieve this high level of athletic success. And she started to name basketball players. And then after a few names she ran out and she was like Adam Vinateri, the Hall of Fame kicker with the Indianapolis Colts and the New England Patriots. And it was like, oh, we've reached the short list. We've run through all the basketball names and so we're on to NFL players. But you know, at least we know that with all that else is going on, the South Dakota bound to have a winning head coach here.

[Zena Keda]

That's good. It absolutely was not on my bingo card, but that's shout out to South Dakota for that representation. I'm going to list two more that are on my mind. When you talk about Lissa Thomas, great point. It'd be really cool if she wins a championship and dejuana Bonner wins a championship and now they've got one together as a couple. That's great.

[Ben Pickman]

And DB wins another. Going back to Phoenix.

[Zena Keda]

Right, Going back to Phoenix. This will be her third though.

[Sabrina Merchant]

She won in 2009 and 2014. Correct.

[Zena Keda]

And the other one, that's really just a storyline that's not necessarily going into game one. But I do think these two players are going to be so crucial. And you talk about team building. Ben, you made me think of this. Melissa Smith, Dewana Bonner, great mid season acquisitions. Look at how much they've been able to impact their teams, whether it was in the regular season or now in the playoffs. And that's a lot of fun to watch in general.

[Ben Pickman]

We'll keep throwing some quickies out. I mean, we have a lot of influence from NBA assistant coaches and head coaches in this series. Right. Becky Ham and Nate Tibbets both obviously have NBA backgrounds. We have Christie Toliver, who's a top assistant on the Phoenix Mercury.

[Sabrina Merchant]

John Lucas.

[Ben Pickman]

Another assistant too. Right. John Lucas on Becky Hammond staff. She has a number of former NBA assistance. So it's going to be an interesting test case for, you know, the five.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Teams that are hiring head coaches.

[Ben Pickman]

Right. To see what they look for or NBA influence in the wnba. This is the first all Pacific time zone series. Sabrina Desert duel.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Is it?

[Zena Keda]

That's a good one.

[Ben Pickman]

It is, yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I guess in the finals.

[Ben Pickman]

You know, that's a. That's another interesting.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Technically, Phoenix not in the Pacific time zone. They're a mountain time team. Fair point.

[Ben Pickman]

Fair point.

[Sabrina Merchant]

At the same time for now.

[Zena Keda]

So who do you guys have as the edge? And also give me a breakdown. Game breakdown. Is it going to be 4 3?

[Sabrina Merchant]

So I know Phoenix has lost the first games of each of their last two series. They come in here on arrest advantage, having closed out their semifinal and four, Vegas had to go through five. And you may have heard a very physical series against the Indiana Fever. I think the rest is going to help Phoenix steal one in game one and then they're going to keep home court advantage the rest of the way. So I'm taking Phoenix and 6 and I'm gonna have Satu Sabali as my finals MVP.

[Ben Pickman]

Why don't you go next? Zena, why don't you go next?

[Zena Keda]

I like that. I almost wanted to base mine off of the Yahoo Sports corgi. I don't know if you guys saw that ended up.

[Ben Pickman]

And you're making fun of me for bringing up time zones.

[Zena Keda]

I'm not. I'm not. I'm actually very grateful because, you know, people don't know Mountain time. They forget about it. It's one of those, you know, it's kind of like the South Dakota times, you know, you just don't want to forget them. So, um, yeah, I was gonna go with that. I like the way it ended, the four two aces. But I, I do think this series is going to seven and I feel like Phoenix might have the. The edge here. So I think it might be 4:3. Actually. Yeah, it's gonna be 4:3.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Phoenix elimination game on the road.

[Zena Keda]

They're gonna have to win it on the road.

[Ben Pickman]

Oh, God. See, now I'm also taking the Phoenix Mercury. So bulletin board material for the last Phoenix six game. I have Alyssa Thomas getting over the hump being the finals mvp.

[Zena Keda]

Oh, I didn't choose that. But yes, I think Alyssa will get a finals mvp. I agree with you.

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I feel like we've jinxed it. Yeah. Way less conviction.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So sad when you said the Mercury.

[Zena Keda]

I know. I, the thing is, I just. It's the depth for me. It's the depth. And Phoenix has, has it. I am never, I don't want to ever bet against Asia Wilson because she's Asia Wilson for me. But the depth there for the Phoenix, they've, their, their bench has been able to show up. You got Sammy Whitcomb. I'm sorry, I just, I can't. I can't cross you out. I just can't. So anyways, now we'll close it out, guys. Let us know. Did we just jinx it? Did we just ruin the finals? I don't know. I don't know. That's all we got for you guys today. Come back here tomorrow morning. We'll be back in your feeds with reactions from game one of the finals. And just remember, our cadence is changing. So it's going to be right after the morning after a game. You're going to hear our voices. So make sure you are subscribed. Then you won't miss it. Yes, I am pointing at you guys right now. Do your job. Subscribe and you'll make sure that you'll hear all of our breakdowns of the game and make sure you're following us anywhere and everywhere you're listening. Go check out our friends at the Yahoo Sports hub. They've got the corgi, they've got other stuff. They've got a lot of stuff that you want to be a part of. So sports.yahoo.com womens sports on behalf of the Athletic, Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman. I'm Zena Caida. Thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No off season is hosted by Zena Keda with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations. How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology insights and Support [e-mail] Morning.

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