← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
THE ATHLETIC ALL ACCESS - USC's Coach Lindsey Gottlieb
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- [00:01]
Sponsor Voice
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- [01:18]
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- [01:44]
Zena Kaeda
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- [01:44]
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- [02:52]
Lindsay Gottlieb
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- [04:57]
Zena Kaeda
For the athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Today's episode is another special edition of Athletic All Access where we sit down with the big names, bright town and difference makers around the sport of women's basketball. Athletic Women's basketball writers Ben Pickman and Shantelle Jennings are here with me today to introduce our guest. Let me do a proper introduction because trying to get this concisely said was like homework. Folks, here we go. Lindsay Gottlieb, third year head coach of the USC Trojans women's basketball team who just finished the regular season with their highest ranking after posting a 23.5record. She is a former NBA assistant coach with the Cleveland Clavaliers. She also spent eight seasons at California, where she led the Golden Bears to seven seven siete set appearances in the NCAA with a trip to the program's first Final Four. She's a former Pac 12 coach of the year, Anna Naismith, national coach of the Year finalist. And now she has her eyes set on Vegas as the Pac12 prepares for their conference tournament. Lindsey Gottlieb, welcome to the show.
- [06:22]
Ben Pickman
Thank you so much. Wow, that was a lot. Appreciate it. Of course, especially the several languages there. That's definitely. We try an Ivy League thing. An Ivy League thing.
- [06:34]
Zena Kaeda
There it is. The sisterhood is alive. Alive. So anyways, I want to make sure Ben and Chantel welcome to the show as well. Very excited for this conversation. So, Ben, Chantelle, I'll let you take it away.
- [06:45]
Shantelle Jennings
Lindsay, I want to go back to sort of the beginning of your experience with college basketball. I think there are pieces of, as we've, like, dug into your history for this, like, pieces of your basketball story that feel like quaint. And I say that lovingly, not like just like reading stuff about your experience coming up in the game that feels like it's not from the 90s necessarily, that it would be from, like the 70s. First and foremost, that you were a player coach when you played at Brown. Like, that's not something that Even in the 90s, I assume was very common. I'm curious how that experience shaped you because, you know, we've talked to people who become young coaches and you're coaching people who are about the same age as you, but to be an actual player coach in the 90s, what was that like?
- [07:36]
Ben Pickman
I mean, now that you say it, it was. I'm so grateful. It was totally unique. It was totally made up. It was concocted. It was, you know, let's figure out what we want to do in life and get it done. Which I do think it was a very Brown kind of way to do things. So I had a great high school basketball experience. Not to throw it all the way back, but there were four Division 1 players on my team, including a superstar who went to go play at Duke. She Was like the first big time recruit to tell Gino no, it's in his book. It was like we had a whole crazy kind of storybook high school experience, but I tore my ACL my senior year. And that was the first time that I was sort of like my world was rocked and had to look at the game from a different lens. Although I was always kind of like the nerd who was talking to my coaches about why we're doing stuff and. But I go into college then and all this to say that I go into college and I was never going to probably be a star by any means, but even coming off an acl, I was kind of even a further. Few further seats down the bench. So my experience was informed by watching my teammates, you know, perform a lot of times or helping my, you know, my friend who was sometimes, you know, she was six man or seven minutes, sometimes playing 30 minutes a game and sometimes playing 10 and talking her through that, like, I feel like I had the ability to just kind of see the whole thing from a different lens. And then actually, you talk about world being rocked. I lost my mother my sophomore year of college, which sort of shifted my whole perspective on life as it might. And that's probably a whole other conversation. But I ended up going abroad my junior year, which you can only do in the Ivy League because you're not on scholarship. And when I came back, I was so locked in on, you know, what I wanted out of my life at that point in the immediate. And I knew I wanted to go into coaching. So when I come back for senior year, I wasn't done playing. I love the game. I'm in the gym all the time shooting. But I knew I wanted to go into coaching. Well, when you're surrounded by high achievers everywhere else who are, like, applying for internships or doing interviews with investment banking firms or whatever they were going to do next, I was like, okay, how do I prepare for what I want to do next? And I asked my head coach, Jean Marie Burr, like, look, I'm not done playing, but I know I want to coach. How can you help me? And she said, well, being a student assistant coach. So I would, I would work in the office after practice. I would, you know, picked the brains of the assistant coaches on what recruiting was like. And it was really this unique experience all of my senior year where I got to still be in the trenches and play because I didn't want to give that up. But they trusted me to be in some coaches meetings and the office and not Kind of break that trust. And it was really a great experience. And I spent my entire winter break writing letters to every coach, individual in basketball saying, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing, and I want to coach. And I would run to my mailbox and get letters back from all kinds of people. I mean, Pat Summitt, Tara, you know, kind of guiding me. And then my coaching career began short.
- [10:28]
Guest Voice
Shortly after that, we should say, too, just for context. I mean, that's an amazing origin story that you grew up in Scarsdale, New York, and then went to Brown, if that wasn't clear, to play in the Ivy League there. I guess, you know, building off of that experience, like, what was it like socially that year for you? Like, was there. Were there weird interactions with teammates about you being in the recruiting offices and, you know, having the ear of coaches, but also obviously, like, wanting to be a college senior. Do you look back and were you in the middle there at all? Caught in the middle?
- [10:56]
Ben Pickman
Not at all. I mean, at some time, if you really want an entertaining podcast, you should bring my teammates on. They're way more fun and way more crazy than I am. But really, no, Ben, like, to be honest, like, it didn't. My nickname was Coachee on the team. Like, they kind of saw me as a coach, but coachee was sort of like a more, I guess, endearing term. They still call me that to this day. I just think they understood, like, you know, who I was and what I was about and, you know, definitely was in on the fun times with the team, but they knew what I wanted to do when I graduated and that, you know, they probably thought I was a little strange for wanting to spend time, you know, with any more time with our coaches that we had to or anything like that. But I think they just trusted what my path was, and those relationships were built really, like, authentically over the course of the four years. And it really wasn't weird, to be honest. And it was a very unique path for me, but it worked out.
- [11:50]
Shantelle Jennings
I want to go back to these letters you sent out. 351. I know Tara wrote you back, and it was sort of. I guess the top was kind of like a form letter, but on the bottom she had written. And like a decade later, you're at Cal coaching against her, which is pretty wild to think about. But you mentioned Pat Summitt. Obviously, the legend wrote you back as well. What sort of information and tips and guidance did you glean from those letters that you got back? And also, how on Gods Green Earth did you send out like these? And I had read these weren't form letters that you sent out either. You did research on every program. You made sure to include specifics. Like, I mean, I applied to like four colleges and you had to include specifics for that. And I was like, I'm done. I can't do more than four. This is too much work. And you sent out 351. Like, what was that?
- [12:36]
Ben Pickman
Like, it sounds crazy, but they might have been done on a typewriter. I'm like, oh my gosh, right? Like, we had computers, but like, I didn't have like a printer. Like, I remember spending my entire winter break. We had a six week winter break at Brown, of which we were there. You know, it was completely like the shining. It was covered in snow. It was only like the two ice hockey teams and the two basketball teams. We did all kinds of stuff over the years. But I spent a lot of time doing those letters that winter break because I wanted to be proactive. And so this friend that I'd mentioned from high school, my best friend, had been recruited by everybody. So, you know, if there was someone that had come and done a home visit with her or came to our school, I remember being like, you might remember me because you recruited my friend Hillary, you know, and so I was writing all these letters, or I just, I watched as much basketball as I could. So I would say, hey, I saw you play against, you know, when you, when you came to play Providence. Because I would go to Providence games just to watch. So I just spent a ton of time. There was a book at that time that my assistant coach helped me with that had the addresses of every, you know, athletic department in the country. It was like the Bible that I just went through and I wrote. I mean, it took a lot of time and I wrote a lot of letters. And then I spent the next several weeks, like I said, running to my little mailbox. It was like a, in, in a building in the basement at Brown. And we would go and they would be like stuffed with letters. Like I was a recruit. It was crazy. Most people wrote me back form letters, hey, thanks for your letter of interest. We don't have a job right now, but a lot of times they had little notes on it. I mean, I just remember specific people at the time saying, hey, if, you know, we don't have a job, but come watch practice. I mean, a lot of relationships were formed that way. And it, I'm kind of like an old school young person in the business. Like, I talked To a lot of, you know, young people trying to get in now. And I'm like, this was my path. And then I took people up on what they offered. You know, shortly after, when I was an assistant at New Hampshire, I drove up and I had known Gino because he recruited my friend. But I drove up to UConn and tried to, you know, get as much as I could about, you know, what they were running. And, you know, eventually when I was at Cal, reached out to the Lakers and spent time with Phil Jackson on the Kobe Bryant. I'm thinking about that now. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I got to do all this stuff that was, I think, came from just that. That mindset of write letters, reach out. The worst people can say is, no. But the Tara thing is probably the most incredible. She wrote back. I mean, I literally remember she said, hi, Lindsay, the women's game needs young people like you. Please stay in it. And literally 10 years later, she's on the opposite sideline. It's. It was wild.
- [15:02]
Guest Voice
Did you ever think, like, you know, Tara talks about her own start, right, getting a job at Ohio State, how she wrote all these letters to different universities, and Phyllis Bailey, the athletic director there, I think was one of, I want to say, two schools that wrote her back. I think USC might have been the other. But, you know, did you ever think about that kind of full circle connection then, of you getting that response from Tara? Tara using a blind letter to kind of get in the door for her coaching career, too?
- [15:29]
Ben Pickman
For sure. I mean, I read that. I read one of her books, I remember as a senior in college, and it talked about it. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she said she, like, at one point, you know, was considering law school or coaching, and she went and took this coaching job for no money and was like, literally using food stamps, you know, to eat at the time, like, or scrapping and clawing. And I remember being very heavily influenced by. By her just from a distance. And that's really interesting. I've got a lot. I told the team a story the other day. We were talking about something, and my first job was at Syracuse, and I was a graduate assistant. But our graduate assistant spot there was the third assistant. We couldn't recruit at the time, but I did scouts, and then one of the assistants couldn't go out recruiting, and so I got to go on the road for my first time. It was the Boo Williams event. And I was like, I'm going to be first in the gym. I'm going to be 8am game. I'm going to get there at 7:30. And I was second. And there was one coach sitting there ahead of me, and it was Pat Summitt. And I said I wanted to be first. And she said, good try. And I just. The work ethic I learned from that was incredible. Like, I think about, you know, this wasn't that long ago. I have my 25th grad, you know, college graduate or college reunion coming up. So. And I went. I got my first coaching job the day after I graduated. So I've been in it for 25 years. We're not talking 50 years, but it feels like some of these stories now are such, you know, craziness from how the world has changed and how the game has changed. We're talking about printing out MapQuest directions to get from gym to gym. I mean, there was no. I didn't have a phone. Like, there was no gps. It's wild. It makes me feel very old.
- [17:02]
Shantelle Jennings
I love this. I think the typewriter fact is what might stay with me even longer. This is just like the best start. And I also love this because as you were talking about that, I realized that really a part of my start in sports writing came from a thank you letter that I wrote. And when I had asked the person who made the introduction for me, like, why are you being this nice to me? They said that I was the first person who'd written a thank you note and that sports journalism needs more people that say thank you. So. So very similar starts in that way. But I think it's probably time that we get into a little bit of USC. As Zena said, it's your third year in the program. You guys have the number two seed in the upcoming Pac12 tournament. By the time this airs, you will have already faced either Washington or Arizona. But looking back to, I guess that first year that you were at USC, you guys finished 12 and 16 that year. Thinking back to 20, 21, 22, what routes did you start, like, growing in that year or what pieces can you look back to and say, like, yes, the success that we're having now was sort of built in that year. Like, I planted this seed back then and I sort of started to see what was happening.
- [18:10]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, that year was really, really hard. I'm not gonna lie. I mean, it was harder maybe than I expected. And it's not like a knock on anyone or anything, but I do think that systems sometimes take a while to change and culture takes a little bit of a while to change. And it's not that we didn't have, you know, some talented players, clearly, you know, we, we did. But I think when it, when a program hasn't won in a long time, you're almost undoing a lot of things. And I didn't even know what. I didn't know until I was in it. So what I remember for sure is, you know, we were, we were fine in non conference. I think we lost one game that we really shouldn't have lost. And you know, the rest we were kind of like. And everyone had like that, that. That bump of a new coach and a new thing. We're kind of excited and then we hit the adversity that is the Pac 12 season. I mean, this, this conference is an absolute gauntlet. And so you get punched a couple times. And our inability to respond to that well. And I mean, all of us, like, I'm talking about player, they were my players at that point, right? Like, our inability really to me was like, okay, this is where we have to change this, right? Like, we have to find a way to make what impacts winning the most important. And conditioning ourselves all the time, and I don't mean just like strength and conditioning, I mean like that. But also mentally conditioning ourselves to be ready and strong enough and tough enough and skilled enough to withstand the hard things that come in college athletics. And so I think those were the first seeds to say, okay, you can't skip steps. You have to do things a certain way. And to be honest, a lot of it was also working through that with the administration. I mean, I got the job here with a whole ton of support, and I think it's been reported I wouldn't have taken the job. I mean, I asked a lot of hard questions and was in a position to be a little bit diminished in terms of, I think women's basketball needs this and this and this and, you know, so everyone working together, kind of undoing some of the structures and then redoing them. And I think that off season is when we really started redoing the structures. Like, I only had about six kids left at that point. You know, we had some hard conversations and said, this is where we're going and this is what it's going to take. And we only want, you know, the people here who are really down to do this here. And, you know, we had a group that was locked in and we did team culture meetings every week and we said, we're going to be bringing a lot of people through the portal. I want them to walk into Something strong. And I think they did. And then we were more kind of at a level that we were ready to win if we could bring in the talent that we needed. And then that second year, I think, really showcased that we fought really hard every day to make sure we were the people in the team we wanted to be that allowed us to compete at a higher level.
- [20:41]
Guest Voice
Do you really look at, you know, you talk about learning how to win. Like, do you look at culture meetings as you referenced and you know, you know, some of the team building exercises and getting buy in from the administration? I mean, so often coaches talk about learning how to win and you think about late game execution. But yeah, do you look at all that kind of off court intangible stuff as maybe more important or as important in the learning how to win process? Or are there other things that go into it that you've now learned at USC that maybe you didn't at Cal a couple years earlier?
- [21:11]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, and I think that's a really good question, right? Because, you know, if you just got on and said, hey, why did you make the NCAA tournament your second year? I mean, we made the NCAA tournament because we defended the hell out of people. I mean, we just were historically good defensively. Destiny Littleton's ability to score and caddy, Sissoko's, you know, athleticism and her motor, it was basketball at that point. But you can't get to that point if all the other stuff is really messed up. Right? And so I think no one's willing to buy in and defend. And obviously hiring Coach B, you know, Beth Burns was a huge move for me. But you know, her, the way that she challenged us on the defensive side, it doesn't happen if kids aren't bought in. It doesn't happen if, you know, you're not don't have the right voices in the locker room or everyone's not willing to do the hard things. We said to them several times that you're like, you're going to give us everything that you have. You're going to give us more than you ever have in your basketball life before. And we're still going to say it's not enough. And like that's, you have to be in a good place culturally to be able to do that. I mean, we even still, you know, kind of, there's still, there were still some growing pains through that to really get, you know, where we wanted to be. So I would say that, you know, it's both you, it's technical, it's basketball, I'm a basketball person. You don't win with culture alone, but you can't win without it. So I think it's. It's a mixture of both.
- [22:30]
Guest Voice
You know, obviously then the success you guys have had a big reason this year. You throw Juju Watkins, who is our freshman of the year, into the mix. And I'm sure she is the freshman of the year of so many. If not, that is just one of the many accolades I think she will receive this postseason. But I guess, you know, along the line in this timeline, can you just take us through the, I guess, the pitch process of a player like her? And obviously you have a college background, you have an NBA background. You think about, you know, when the warriors are recruiting Kevin Durant, the Hamptons five, like kind of famous story or, you know, in WNBA free agency most recently, there's all these pictures of the Seattle Storm with Neko Gumike and all the graphics and PowerPoints and social media videos. Like, did you guys do any of that as you're recruiting Juju? Any of the kind of bright lights and flashiness, or is it really more just talking in a living room like this to try and connect with her? Or maybe it's a little bit of both.
- [23:23]
Ben Pickman
It was a little bit of both. But I think in all the stuff that has been reported on juju and all the stories told and all of this, I think we need to remember, I think in the story of Juju, when it's all said and done, her courage to pick USC when we were coming off 12 and 16, she didn't pick us when we were coming off a tournament berth. And you're like, oh, I can kind of see now, like, she chose us when we were 12 and 16. And I just think when you think about women's basketball and how it's gone and how a couple teams have dominated everything and players have gone where they can almost be guaranteed to go to a final Four and up from there. And I'm not saying that those are bad choices for people. I'm just saying this kid was different. I just think that has to be in the story. Like her willingness to bet on herself, her willingness to believe in me and us, her willingness to understand what could come from raising an entire city and this great brand of USC back to another level that just doesn't come around a lot in at the time, a 16, 17 year old making that decision. So it was a little bit of both. There was definitely a telling moment in a home visit where it was just us. And I want to Say not a lot of people got in the home. And so it would. And that was not a lot of bells and whistles. I mean, we brought whatever you're allowed to bring, but that was human connection. And I think there was maybe a moment of trust there with them and me that, that we built something there. She did come around here, you know, a number of times, but that was always nerve wracking for me because there was going to be no one in the gym, you know, and I'm asking her to see something she hasn't seen. There was one moment where we played ucla, you know, two times in, in less than a week, because that's what the Pac 12 does, right? So we go to UCLA and we had one of these big kind of cultural moments with our team. I can't go into it, but it was like we had a thing after, you know, that game and we had kind of like meetings and stuff to make sure the team was good to go. And I had to really work for a couple days to make sure the team was going to be mentally ready to go the next time against, you know, you slay two or three days later. So Juju comes the next game and we were competitive here, you know, we lost by under 10. And Ju was sitting in my office after the game with her parents. And we have food, like post game food out in the lobby. And a lot of the players were coming through and getting their food and coming in and coach, see you tomorrow. And there weren't tears and there wasn't anger. And she's like, you just lost to ucla. Like, why is everyone not mad? And her parents were actually great. And I had to explain, it's a process. Like three days ago, I didn't know if I was going to get this team to show up on this day, right? And we got here and we competed. The next step is having someone like you and the rest, people who just, who can't live without beating UCLA kind of thing. And so that process, there were a lot of moments, right? And so we had to build that trust. We had to build the vision. I had to get to really know her and really know them and what's important to them. So then by the time she took her official visits, visit, we did, we did the bells and whistles because, shoot, you got this kid on campus, why not? But that's not what got her. I just don't think that's what got her. I think she knew this place was going to value her. I think the president stepped up the campus Stepped up. Everyone was like, juju's going to be on campus, let's get this right. And we did. But I think, I think she came because of the more authentic relationships and the ability to do something for her city in this school. And it speaks more to her than anybody else.
- [26:57]
Shantelle Jennings
So I think the thing about Juju is that if people have only sort of seen her play or seen her post game interviews, you know, the part for me that was most surprising when I sat down with her earlier this season is that she's quite reserved and quiet. I thought, you know, she walked into your guys offices and I was like, is that Julie? Like it was sort of like, oh, of course. This is one of, this is like one of the best players in the country. And, and that's not true for everyone. She's at least in my interactions with her and other people I've talked to, definitely like a little bit quieter. How were you able to relate to her through the recruiting process when she was quieter and as she has stepped on campus this year and become a superstar and you've got thousands of people showing up to see her, how have you sort of seen her acclimate herself to that world when it does seem like she is someone who is a little bit quieter?
- [27:47]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean I would say what I've told people is like in this world of, you know, now social media and nil and things like that, which I think players should get everything that's coming to them. But she is a Hooper. She's a student of the game. She's an artist on the court who, who has built up a following. She is not a social media star who also plays basketball. And like to me that was really clear early. So I connected with her through basketball a great deal and she wasn't like, I don't want to, like she wasn't trying to be on the phone with me 24 7. She wasn't all about the recruiting process. I mean, obviously I spent a lot of time also talking to her family. But the conversations we did have were very, I think, meaningful because a lot was about basketball and then a lot was about her family and her life and getting to know her on a deeper level. It's not a lot of the fluffy stuff. Right. She was not. She never posted all of her offers and she never posted who's recruiting her. In fact, it was quite the opposite. So I think it was very real and authentic now to see her handle all of this. I mean, you mentioned obviously Chantelle, like, you know, there's One. There goes one of the best basketball players in the country. True. I think there goes someone who literally could someday be one of the best to ever do this. And she's just very unassuming and she's very humble and she's, she's very confident and I think she has this drive towards greatness, but in just her affect around people is very unassuming and she's just really lovely to be around, naturally fun, naturally a giving person. And so to see her handle all this has been really, really pretty exceptional. She's giving up her time. She's about the bigger picture. There are always people waiting for her. I think she understands that this is what it's about for her is to uplift the city and uplift the people around her as well. But without doing that, she does that without just kind of being a magnet for the stage or the lights. It's very, it's a very interesting thing. And I've been, I've been very wowed in terms of her grace with handling all of that.
- [29:49]
Shantelle Jennings
I was gonna ask you this even, you know, before you started talking about juju there, but how did your experience in the NBA and you know, the NBA is a star driven league and I think a lot of times in women's college basketball, especially when you have freshmen who are really, really good, like there's still a sort of an expectation that you might temper, temper whatever is coming around it. And you have not done that at all with juju. Like from the get go, you have stated exactly how good she is. You just said you think she might be at the end of the day, one of the best who's ever played this sport. I don't disagree with you at all. I think it's sometimes surprising as a sports writer who's talked to so many coaches to hear someone talk about a freshman with that sort of gravity. Because I think you're being honest and I think sometimes coaches will sort of be like they have a chance to be, you know, and obviously, you know, all of that is true. But how did your experience in the NBA and sort of being around those superstars and how those superstars are talked about, did that change at all how open you are to talk about how good and how great she is and can be?
- [30:52]
Ben Pickman
I think so, for sure. I mean, I think by nature more as a coach, you know, over, you know, the, whatever, eight, you know, 11 years as a head coach at Santa Barbara and Cal. Like you form kind of your philosophies and I've always been A kind of meet them where they are person, right? Like, I've never believed, okay, you have 15 people and they have to be the exact same and you know, everyone's in the same box. Obviously you have team standards, obviously you have things that everyone does. But to assume that their life experiences when they get to you as a 17 year old are all the same is crazy. To assume that they all need exactly the same thing all the time doesn't make sense to me. You know, they're, their lifting routine should be a little bit different. There's what their study hall looks like should be a little bit different because they all have different needs and, and certainly the way that I approach them should be a little bit different. So I always sort of believe that. I think going to the NBA and I thought J.B. bickerstaff was just masterful at this, right? Like this recognition that the most important thing in that league is still what impacts winning, right? Like those guys want to win, that's going to affect how much money they make, what their legacy is, all of that. So you have to, you have to do something in the locker room to make sure that the name on the front of the jersey and what impacts winning is most important. But to pretend that they're not all individuals in that, in that world too is. You just can't survive, right? Like in the NBA, you know who's making 30 million and who's probably going to get that last shot, you know, you know who has been in the league while and is a veteran and you got to listen to what they say, right? Like, and so I think seeing that play out in real time with someone who is very skilled in that way, but also just seeing that whole league where you don't, you don't dim anyone's light, like that's a women's basketball thing in some weird way, like it doesn't hurt the rest of the team that, you know, that I can say Juju is what she is. The same way that I can talk about the next 12 players on my team and what they are individually as well. You just don't ask me about them as much. Right. But I would, I would be able to talk about them individually too. So, yeah, I do think it's impacted that. And I just, I think I'd be doing Juju a disservice if I just put her in a box with everyone else and be like, yeah, she's this pretty talented kid. And in the recruiting process, I think I had to explain to them that I see this and I see what's coming because I think she needed someone or a place that was going to let her be her and also kind of maximize what she's capable of. And that's not a knock on anybody else by any means. I just think, you know, there, there are unique ways to approach each player and team and that's what I try to do.
- [33:17]
Guest Voice
You mentioned JB. You know, obviously Cleveland in the NBA has had a ton of success this year. They're 39 and 21. As we're taping this, I guess one of the questions I have, you know the job and you know this from the inside, we know it from the outside. Like the job that he took over and took on in Cleveland a couple years back is very different than the job maybe he has now, right? The expectation, the roster, it's changed. And you know, there is this notion of you're a player development coach or you're a developmental head coach, but maybe you're not a game head coach who can get you to a championship. I'm curious, like from the college, I guess, you know, I see you nodding and having some reaction to that. So I'm curious what you're thinking, but also like, you know, in the college game maybe is this perception too, or the job that you are getting hired for is maybe very different than the job you have now. And you kind of have to adapt as a coach in kind of much the same way that, you know, maybe in the NBA you don't see it as much, or in the WNBA you don't see it as much, but you see it in college. I'm just curious kind of what your reaction to, to everything I threw out there. What is kind of resonating then?
- [34:18]
Ben Pickman
Just like, I mean, I'm pretty tight with jb. Like, you know, I can call him and be like, what's like the NBA? So crazy. What's crazier, right? Like if you know that when we got to Cleveland and you know, we had a bunch of 18 year olds and we were going to lose, is that harder? Or now, hey, you know, win playoff games or, or that. Or you're underperforming. Like, it's just crazy, right? Like, there's never a dull moment in the NBA. There's always something. There's. There's different challenges and pressures all the time. There's 30 jobs and it's the craze. So that was the first thing I kind of reacted to. So you're right. It's definitely a really different job there now than it was. And I credit obviously Kobe and JB a lot for getting it to where it is now. I mean, it's been just a joy for me to see. I left probably sooner than I would have planned because this job opportunity was so great. But to see those young guys and the front office and what they've added in jb, get. Get them to where they are now is unreal. But, yep, that comes with different pressures now, which is. Which is crazy. In terms of women's basketball, I've always said what we are as head coaches is like being the CEO of a small company. You cannot be. You cannot be the expert of every single area. Right? Like, I can't be the recruiting coordinator and the strength coach and the academic advisor, but I have to speak the language everywhere or else you lose touch. You have to have the pulse on your team. So it's a little bit of everything. As expectations change, there's different. You got to understand, like, you know, there's going to be issues and problems and things that come in everybody's world. The number one thing to remember is we're coaching basketball for a living. So problems are relative, right? Like, stress is relative, especially to things going on in the world, but also to understand that our jobs are evolving all the time, and you got to, you know, kind of handle what's in front of you, and the best way to do that is authentically and with the help of the people around you and empowering others and making the hard decisions or having, you know, important conversations when you need to. And like I said, I really saw JB model that, but I've seen, you know, kind of other people in other, you know, instances. I follow a lot of leadership things, too, in other sports and try to glean as much as I can from it to get me ready for the moment that I'm in right now.
- [36:20]
Shantelle Jennings
Lindsay, you talk about coaches who maybe take a job and then the job becomes different. You're a perfect example. Next year, you'll be up for Big Ten coach of the year, as opposed to Pac12 coach of the year, the first bicoastal sports conference in the country. You guys will be playing in the three largest media markets in the country in terms of this era in college basketball and women's college basketball. We just saw Iowa, Ohio State on Fox over the weekend, pull in 3.4 million viewers. Fox and the Big Ten Network will obviously be where a lot of your guys games are aired next season. What is it like being that CEO right now as there is so much Sort of shifting, you say, being a CEO, but now with NIL and the transfer portal and moving conferences and it truly is more CEO like I would imagine.
- [37:06]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. Also the. I mean, the people that were on all the phone conversations to hire me are not here. Like, there's been a lot of change. Right. But it's. I think that a couple things, you know, like I mentioned, a lot of people were like, well, why would you want to go back to college basketball with all this change going on? Like, it doesn't scare me. I'm just not one of those people who are like, well, this is how it's been for 30 years and this is the only way it should be and the only way I want to do it. I kind of believe that there should have been some change, obviously, in college basketball landscape for a long time in terms of player autonomy, player power, certainly the opportunity to earn money off their name, image and likeness. So I'm just not as worried by the change maybe as some people. And again, I credit the whole Cleveland experience and totally going out of my comfort zone and doing something different to make me more ready for that. But I came back into this knowing I certainly couldn't have predicted the Big Ten moves and everything that's gone on, but I did. I did know that a place like usc, it was a very. I was very intentional in my choice of this job. Right. Like, I wouldn't have taken almost any other job because I knew this is going to be a place that's going to be a leader throughout whatever the change is going on and has some inherent things that, that never waver. Right. Like LA and this time in women's basketball and the investment they were making and what the school provides, like, those things are still anchored. We're still playing our home games in LA next year. And obviously this chance to be on a bigger national stage is something we embrace. I love that I can be part of the conversations of what the student athlete experience has to look like, what the planes have to be like, what the academic support has to be like. And I'm going to continue to push to make it as kind of student athlete and female friendly as it can be. But I sort of like, I don't know that just intellectually and sort of just professional development. It challenges me to have all these different things going on. And trying to be at the top of a changing landscape is something that doesn't scare me. I think it kind of empowers me. And in terms of the. This new era, like I said, back to My experience at the NBA Nil. I'm a huge supporter, I'm doing whatever I can. But it does not change the integrity of my talks in that locker room or my relationships with players. It doesn't change what impacts winning. Those things I think are going to be the same, which allows us then to, like I said before, have these individual conversations and, and individual goals. I mean, but for years I've talked about, I've had one player who wants to be, you know, a first pick in the WNBA draft and another player who wants to go to law school and another player wants to play overseas and another player, you know, who wants to do the next thing. And so to be able to have 13, 14 different conversations while having the one in the locker room about what impacts winning, I think that again is the secret sauce kind of. And now there's just different things on the line but that makes it more fun and you know, it's kind of interesting conversations to be part of and I hope I can push the sport forward.
- [39:49]
Shantelle Jennings
I feel like this next question kind of encapsulates a few of the different themes we've been talking about so far. Obviously juju, you know, is so much of what you guys do and when we talk about what impacts winning for usc, she's a big part of that. But like you said, 2 through 14, really important and we don't ask you enough about those players. But I'm curious with, you know, like I said, juju is so much of your guys success. And I think through the season we've sort of seen this team grow. Against Ohio State, I think about that run that the Buckeyes made after she picked up her fourth foul and she had to go to the bench. I think they went 14 and 1 versus recently against Arizona. She fouls out and you guys have a team that, you know, in a tough position pulls together and, and pulls off a double overtime win. What are the times this season that you feel like this team has really come together? You've lovingly sort of called the group Juju and the nerds. I'm going to include you in that nerd group as well since you are also an Ivy League trainer transfer in a way. But in terms of this group, because it is, you have a freshman, you have Ray Marshall and then you have three Ivy League transfers coming in. You were going to, no matter what, sort of have these learning curves. But what were the points during this season when you looked at this group and thought these are the building blocks that could get us, you know, a number one seed in the NCAA tournament or finish top two in the Pac 12 for sure.
- [41:07]
Ben Pickman
I think I can just give a couple sort of along the way. So you mentioned obviously the Ohio State game kind of of bursting onto the scene and everyone's like, okay, you know, you've got this young kid who's better than advertised and get some other good players too. But you're right, we struggled when she was out. I think just again, starting with her, the cat was out of the bag at that point. Right. And every single game plan has been to kind of stop her or limit her or disrupt her in some way. So again, her ability to continue to perform once she became the focal point is pretty unreal. But then, you know, we. We've had to grow in a lot of ways. We go to the Bahamas and the game against Penn State, like, was just a crazy game. It was in a, you know, gym in the Bahamas. Felt like an AAU game. We're down seven with a minute and a half and Jew was pretty spectacular in that last minute. But that game, I think for our team was really big. Caitlin Davis hurt her knee in the game before against Seton hall, and she was our starter. She's been incredibly impactful. And now we had to shift and kind of go to what I call is our smaller lineup. So Taylor Bigby starts and now we're four guards. Right? That actually gained us some another way to play for a while. Right? Moving Mackenzie Forbes to the four. I mean, she's played everywhere. I think that was a pivotal moment. Obviously we don't want anyone hurt, but I think we had to learn how to play a little bit small ball. Then I would say the next big huge moment was we had everybody sick right before Christmas. I mean, if you saw. But Caitlin Davis was out, Raya was out, JuJu was out. That's at least. At least three starters, maybe four. And MacKenzie Forbes has 36 points at long Beach State in her flu game. I mean, she had the flu and she played. So that was crazy because who knows where we'd be. Would we be in conversations for hosting if we had lost to Long Beach State? I'm not sure that was a big one. I think that the second game against UCLA here to have that. This place 100% sold out. Not a seat. My husband stood the whole game. There were no seats. And to win that game on this floor with a sold out crowd in LA, where we had, you know, 400 people here last year for some games was incredibly unreal. And we did that without Raya Marshall, you know, she, she had Covid for that game, and that was wild. And then I would say the other pivotal moment was losing to Washington at home. I mean, it was really a bad. Our worst loss. And again, Washington's beat other good people, their, Their. Their potential tournament team. But for us, we feel like it was a moment where we had a. I called it painful Tuesday, watching that film. It was brutal. And we reeled off seven wins after that. And I think that point allowed us to see if people are going to sag 10 people, you know, in, in the paint, we have shooters. If they're going to trap Jew, we can hit roller. If they're going to not do certain things on Jew, she could get as much, you know, 51. Like, I think that was a big moment for us just in terms of really learning how to respond to adversity. I think that was big. And then, yeah, the winning. Winning both in the Bay Area, I think was. It was important. There's been a lot of growth. Like, obviously, you know, Raya to me, to embrace playing with this young kid when she's returning all conference player and finding her way. The Ivy's kids are just unreal because they're Hoopers, they're gamers, they can make big shots, they're competitors, but they've completely gotten over themselves, you know, in terms of the young kind of stuff young players sometimes go through with I need this or I need that. They're all about the team. So that's worked really well. So I do think there's been a lot of growth and we're a better team than we were when we played Ohio State.
- [44:31]
Guest Voice
Bringing it kind of full circle then. And as we kind of start to wrap up here, like, you know, you mentioned some of the conversations that you've also had from your youth, whether that's, you know, with Tara, Pat Summit. You talk about a Phil Jackson reference, JB Bickerstaff. Like, when you approach this postseason run, no knowing where you guys are as a program in the life cycle, just, just obviously you want to win as many games as possible and win the national championship. But one, I guess, are you picking the brains of any, you know, former mentors or, you know, people you've had relationships with? And two, are you picking the brains of any mentors or people you've had relationships with? And two, how are you just approaching it? What kind of advice or guidance or perspective do you have right now knowing you have a generational player? But, you know, this is also a different stage in the cycle than it might be in two years or three years. How are you thinking about it?
- [45:22]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think March basketball in college, when it's this, like this intense, you know, 30 games or whatever to get here, 28 games, whatever it is, and people, you know, are kind of. It's the longest any of the, Some of these people have played. I mean, Juju's never experienced this before, nor have some of our others. Like, it's this battle, I think, in March to be the team, be a team that still really enjoys coming to see each other every day. Plays with a joy, plays with a lightness, and at the same time understands the urgency that it's one and done from here on out. Like that, to me is, is like that perfect balance when, when you just don't want it to end because you really like the group and at the same time you're. You're wound tightly enough to know we gotta do what we need to do or else it ends. Right? Like, I think that's what I'm trying to impart to them organically and then, you know, have them run with it. I think you have to trust your, what you've done up to this point and who you are. Like, at this point, we have our ball screen coverages, we know what we're looking to do on offense, you tweak the game plans, but you got to really believe in it. And that's when the magic happens. Like, that's when you say, okay, we've got the best player on the floor, we're shooting the ball well, or we're just able to make plays. So I'm trying to get them to understand intellectually where we want to be and then let them run with it, if that makes sense. For me, I'd say I'm always picking the brains of mentors and people and who can I call? I mean, I've placed a couple calls now on, you know, if we get the opportunity to host like just some things about how do you make it feel like it's home and, and we're not traveling? And then how do you make it feel like it's the NCAA tournament and, you know, you're still locked in. There's a lot of things I'm always learning. But the number one thing, you know, as to, to your point, Ben, about the point in our trajectory, this is our only time with this team. I mean, these Ivy kids have one shot at this. Juju as a freshman has one shot at this. The whole group as it's composed, you Only get one. So you have to live in this moment and not think about the trajectory. And this is a group. I think we want to try to do everything that we can do right now on the. On the big. When the biggest stages present themselves.
- [47:22]
Zena Kaeda
Lindsay, every single time I get an opportunity to, like, listen to these conversations and particularly hear from the coaches, I'm always just in awe. And I'm always wondering, like, what would it have been like to be able to play for someone like the coaches that we get the opportunity to hear from? Because the way that you all have evolved and adapted to the game today and what each player needs, it's amazing. It's inspiring. I think back to what you said before about how the world of women's basketball does have this strange need to make everyone the same, to make everyone fall in line, as opposed to understanding that certain players have certain, you know, aspects to their game, to their personalities, to whomever, you know, whatever parts of them that make them unique. And it's okay to call these things out. And as you're talking about how you, you know, prepare your team and work with your team to be as successful as they've been, it is all about looking at all the individualities of your players and making them fit together. So I just want to commend you on that. Like, it's beautiful to hear.
- [48:32]
Ben Pickman
Thank you. That means a lot.
- [48:34]
Zena Kaeda
Of course. Of course. Well, before we let you go, we got to do our Quick Hits.
- [48:39]
Ben Pickman
What's Quick Hits? Talk to me.
- [48:40]
Zena Kaeda
Quick Hits is just basically, you know, quick little questions where we just want to get some perspective on who you are as a basketball player, as a basketball mind, and then also just some interesting insights. We've had some interesting answers as of late, I think Cody McMahon from Ohio State, easily answered.
- [48:58]
Shantelle Jennings
Don't give anything away. Xena.
- [48:59]
Zena Kaeda
I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. She answered. Probably one of the best ones that we've had, but all right, let's just get into it. This is Quick Hits. Clock is on. You got to answer quickly. All right, here we go. Number one, Lindsay. Favorite battle basketball sound on game day.
- [49:14]
Ben Pickman
Swish like the swish of the net.
- [49:16]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, Coach, your favorite basketball move.
- [49:19]
Ben Pickman
Euro step.
- [49:20]
Zena Kaeda
Oh, I like it. Okay, most used phrase or saying could be basketball related or not that you say all the time by me.
- [49:31]
Ben Pickman
The team. The team did an imitation of this the other day. So shame on us. Like, I'll say they score this way, we know it's shame on us. Shame on us. And now they say it all the time.
- [49:42]
Zena Kaeda
That's so prophetic and very brown of you. Shame on us. I love that.
- [49:48]
Ben Pickman
If I. The really brown one is regression to the mean, I'll pull out regression to the mean. And everyone's like, what the hell are you talking about? So they go, and shame on us more.
- [49:56]
Shantelle Jennings
More often.
- [49:57]
Zena Kaeda
I'm going to tell you guys, I think I've told this story before, but there's something about. I don't know if it's an Ivy League thing or whatever it is, but I remember our sprints, like our. Our preseason conditioning. One of our drills was tied to answering trivia while running full speed. I love it down the court.
- [50:16]
Ben Pickman
Like, I might have to add that.
- [50:18]
Zena Kaeda
Literally having like the. The clock would start and our coach would yell out a random piece of trivia, like, what is Handsome Dan's real name? That's. Handsome Dan is obviously the mascot for the Yo. Bulldogs. What's his real name? Or what piece of machinery was made in New Haven during the years of this? I'm like. And we have to discuss it while doing a 22 second drill. Yeah, there's something about these, you know, pulling out these incredibly smart terms and trivia questions and things of that sort. Regression to the mean, though, that's a different one.
- [50:52]
Lindsay Gottlieb
That's.
- [50:52]
Zena Kaeda
That's new. That's new. Okay, cool.
- [50:56]
Ben Pickman
They should know what it means.
- [50:57]
Zena Kaeda
They should. They should. Okay. Okay. What profession out of side of sports would you like to attempt if you were not a basketball coach or player?
- [51:05]
Ben Pickman
So it's still in sports, but not a coach or player. Definitely gm. Totally out of sports. When I was a little kid, I always wanted to be like a Supreme Court justice.
- [51:13]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. Where did that come from?
- [51:17]
Ben Pickman
Might come from a family of lawyers and a lot of. Yeah, I know. You don't just fall into that, like in your next career. Like, I get that. Yeah.
- [51:24]
Zena Kaeda
That's awesome.
- [51:26]
Ben Pickman
Sonia Sotomayor, Yale graduate. I believe she's a Yale graduate. Right. So I've missed my window on that. But that's a fantasy job.
- [51:32]
Zena Kaeda
There you go. If there was a type of law that you did, what would it be?
- [51:36]
Ben Pickman
Public defender type thing like that.
- [51:41]
Zena Kaeda
That's a great answer. Okay, last but not least, your biggest basketball ick. What turns you off?
- [51:49]
Ben Pickman
Bad clock management at that end of game situation. Clock management.
- [51:54]
Zena Kaeda
I love that. Do you have an example of like the worst clock management you've ever had?
- [51:59]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, shoot, stuff happens all the time, right?
- [52:02]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah.
- [52:03]
Ben Pickman
But you're watching a game like it's. It's Harder even, like, because I know, like, our own team will do that. But when you're watching a game and it's like a two for one situation and they don't know or shoot too early and the other, I mean, shoot too early and the other team scores when they shouldn't get the ball back at all, those type of things, even at the end of a quarter, like, that's why I love that the four quarters, women's basketball, you get all these kind of situations. This is, you know, fun as you're watching it, there's no stress. It's just kind of fun to watch and see who could they've shot more quickly or less quickly. But once your own team, it's horrifying.
- [52:34]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah. No, it makes sense.
- [52:35]
Shantelle Jennings
Shame on you. If you don't know when it's too early to shoot. Shame on you.
- [52:40]
Ben Pickman
Correct.
- [52:40]
Zena Kaeda
I feel like a lot of people felt like that about, I mean, outside of the world of women's basketball, the super bowl this year. There you go. I did want to ask you, being a player coach, did you hear of the story of Aaron Matson at unc?
- [52:55]
Ben Pickman
Oh, yes, the. The field hockey coach.
- [52:57]
Zena Kaeda
Yes.
- [52:58]
Ben Pickman
How incredible. I only know it, like, right. Like she was a national champion or a player and then goes right into being the coach, like the next year. I mean, that stuff out of like, Pat Summit. I mean, Pat Summit was a head coach at 22. Like, that's in this modern era. That's wild. Kudos to her. I'd love to meet her at some point.
- [53:14]
Zena Kaeda
There you go. All right, well, Aaron Matson, if you're listening, Lindsey Gottlieb wants to meet you. All right, well, I know you gotta go, coach. We appreciate you so much for joining us. Appreciate all of you tuning in. We'll let you go coach.
- [53:26]
Ben Pickman
Thanks, you guys. Bye, guys.
- [53:28]
Zena Kaeda
Thank you, Ben and Chantelle, for an amazing conversation with Coach Gottlieb. Again, folks, if you like what you hear, please hit that subscribe button on our show. If you want to hear more interviews like this and leave us comments and leave that five star review as well. If you have any topics you'd like for us to cover or questions for our writers, please keep in touch. For now, for Coach Gottlieb, for Chantel, for Ben, I'm Zena Keda. Thanking you for your ear and encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning, and keep loving the game. And also get ready for conference tournament matchups this weekend because that's the only way we're gonna keep growing it. Oh, all right. Until next time.
- [54:14]
Ben Pickman
As we head into the playoffs, it's safe to assume there.
- [54:16]
Lindsay Gottlieb
Will be a few calls made by the refs that will be hard to accept. But you know what isn't hard to accept? Discover. Believe it or not, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide.
- [54:29]
Ben Pickman
You heard that right, 99%. So make a good call for your.
- [54:33]
Lindsay Gottlieb
Wallet and get discovered. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [54:36]
Ben Pickman
Learn more at discover.com creditcard this podcast.
- [54:40]
Aura Voice
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- [55:32]
Ben Pickman
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.
- [55:36]
Wayfair Voice
Here's a show that we recommend.
- [55:40]
Lindsay Gottlieb
Remember blowing into a video game cartridge.
- [55:43]
Wayfair Voice
Or taping songs off the radio?
- [55:45]
Lindsay Gottlieb
How about Saturday morning cartoons?
- [55:47]
Wayfair Voice
Hey, AOL chat rooms.
- [55:49]
Ben Pickman
Did we just age ourselves?
- [55:51]
Lindsay Gottlieb
Yep, we're Mike Finoya and Charles McBee.
- [55:54]
Wayfair Voice
Two comedians getting nostalgic and asking that nagging question.
- [55:58]
Zena Kaeda
Are we old?
- [55:59]
Lindsay Gottlieb
Relive the laughs, the cringes, and the nostalgia.
- [56:02]
Wayfair Voice
Are we old?
- [56:03]
Ben Pickman
Old?
- [56:03]
Wayfair Voice
Podcast right here on acast. ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [56:21]
Ben Pickman
Acast.com.