← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
The Athletic's All-Access: Las Vegas Aces head coach Becky Hammon
00:51:33
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- [00:00]
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- [04:55]
Host
For.
- [04:56]
Zena Kaeda
The Athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Today is a very special edition of our Athletic All Access show where we sit down with the big names, bright talent and difference makers around the sport of women's basketball for you all to enjoy. Our guest today has actually made differences in both women's basketball and Men's basketball. And if you haven't already read the show description, that basically gives it away. I will allow Ben Pickman to give the correct and proper introduction. He'll be joined by Sabrina Merchant to interview our guest. Ben, Take it away.
- [05:47]
Ben Pickman
All right.
- [05:48]
Host
We are joined today by a basketball hall of Famer, a member of the 15th, 20th and 25th anniversary WNBA teams, a two time WNBA champion as a head coach. We appreciate her joining us in a busy, busy time for front offices and WNBA teams. But as a reminder to all those fans out there, the goal of all these moves is to have what our guest Becky Hammond has, and that is to win a WNBA championship. That is the goal when constructing these rosters. So we thought it would be a good idea to go back a little bit, hear some stories from the 2023 season, learn about coaching the Aces, talk about the league at large. We have Becky Hammond on the show. Coach Becky Hammond of the Las Vegas Aces. Welcome to the Athletic Women's basketball Show.
- [06:34]
Ben Pickman
Thank you for having me. That was quite the intro, Ben.
- [06:37]
Host
I'm trying. It is a busy time and exciting time in the wnba. And now normally we kick it off a question with a question that we are curious about. But the question we wanted to start with comes from someone you know as well as anyone. I don't know if you saw this, but last night your star forward, Asia Wilson, she tweeted, my teammates are so funny. I really don't see how our coaches put up with us all summer. So my question for you first, Becky, is how do you put up with them all summer long?
- [07:05]
Ben Pickman
Oh, man. The question's probably mutual. How do they put up with me all summer long? I have no idea what that tweet means. You know, they, they live in a social media world that I for the most part try to avoid. But at any rate, they're a fun group. I mean, I really enjoy coming to work every day, working with them. They are the utmost professionals in their approaches, their care factor for each other and it's just contagious. So for me, it's pretty easy because they're funny. We laugh a lot. We laugh a lot, we work hard. But at the end of the day, I know what they're about and that's when winning championships and we always come together for that purpose.
- [07:52]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think Chelsea was going out to Kia during their rehab because Kia had posted something and Chelsea had to find out about it online instead of in a group text and, you know, just put her on blast for everyone to see. So I Think that's what Asia was responding to?
- [08:04]
Ben Pickman
Probably. And thank God I'm not on the group text. I'm sure they specifically left me out on purpose, so I don't know what. What they do half the time, I find out with the rest of the world.
- [08:15]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, speaking of the group text, were you privy to any of the moments from their Cabo vacation a couple of weeks ago, or how did that come together?
- [08:23]
Ben Pickman
I saw that, and, I mean, I don't know if this is. I'll say this, you know, an NBA guy, a guy that was friends and a fan and obviously a really nice guy, really took great care of them, and so went out there and like I said, I don't know if he wants his name known or not, so I won't say it, but that looks like they had a great time. So, yeah, they. I'm right in Texas again. They could have called me. They said they were going to call me. Like, y'all never called me. She's there. Like, Becky would be here in, like, three hours.
- [08:54]
Host
I'm like, probably when you reflect on. I mean, before we get into the series and the seasons, just keeping it light right now, like, when you reflect on the parades and all the celebrations from last October, is there a moment that sticks out and lingers in your mind or that, you know, just. Yeah, six out. Six out.
- [09:11]
Ben Pickman
For whatever reason, I mean, our parades have been tremendous. You know, I told them that, you know, the next week or so, I was like, clearly, I have no friends in this organization, because at any point, you could have taken the mic, you could have my drink, you could have taken both and not let me get up there and start flapping my jaws. So, no, we. We have a blast together. You know, we really try to create a family atmosphere, and I think people can feel that. You know, I think some. Some people mistake our. Or misplace our. Our have fun factor with each other, but we just go out there, we take care of business, and, you know, work hard, play hard, and then when you win a championship, party, hard. So clearly that was on display the last couple of years.
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Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I was going to say, I wasn't sure how much you'd actually remember from the parade, just based on what we witnessed on television.
- [10:11]
Ben Pickman
Well, I'll tell you this. They're very, very hard to get. So, you know, once a year, if I forget parts of the day, I guess I'm okay with. You know, they're all human, too. And, you know, this last year, too, there was so much pressure. Right? There's always pressure. Let's just get that right. There's so much pressure. But then just how the season unfolded, everything that happened, just things that mostly were out of our control. You know, I just encourage them to, you know, keep playing hard, keep playing together. So it was just like a big release. I think people felt that, like, it was just a huge exhale when that final buzzer went off. Like I said, given the circumstances that we were dealt throughout the season, whether that be injuries or, you know, off the court player issues, like, whatever happened, this group has shown just incredible resiliency.
- [10:59]
Host
Was there ever a moment, I mean, you talk about last season, like, was there ever a moment? You know, I remember, I think it was August 28th when you guys played the Liberty in New York and, you know, the final score was. I think they beat you guys by nine. But it wasn't like the scoreline wasn't as indicative. I think you made a late run late in the fourth quarter, and I remember in the post game, like, you were super animated and frustrated and you, like, lost to Washington a few days earlier. You talked about, I think, you know, Plum or talking about maybe punting the game, but Plum didn't know, like, what punting meant. Something like that.
- [11:29]
Ben Pickman
Yeah.
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Host
Was there ever a moment that you thought, and maybe it was then and maybe it was someone else, that you, your team couldn't win a title or you had questions.
- [11:38]
Ben Pickman
I mean, you know what I mean? I'll be the first to admit there was a stretch there that I felt like the Liberty were better than us. They were playing better than us. Better than us. And playing better than us is different. And I thought there was a stretch, a good window there probably for about three to four weeks where they were beating us. And handily, I thought some of it was scheduling, some of it was, you know, we had a stretch of, I think, 23 days where we had went back to the east coast twice within those 23 days. We were playing every other day, basically. And punting a game just basically means, like. And I should have done it. I should have trusted my gut and not listen to them because they'll always talk me into it. Right. I never tell these girls no, so they'll always talk me into letting them play. And it wasn't just Plum. I mean, Chelsea wanted to play, Asia want to play, but I knew it was going to be. We exerted just a ton of effort to get back into that Chicago game in the second half. They were kicking our butt and we really exerted a lot of effort Then we didn't get in, you know, to D.C. till like 4 in the morning, something like that. And then we went to the White House, and I just knew we weren't going to have it. I mean, there's games where throughout the course of a season, it doesn't matter if it's the wnba, the NBA, like, you just don't have it. And I knew we weren't going to have it. And so just rest them and, and try to just get one game. And it would have been that game at New York, but allowing them to, you know, go for both games and get two wins, we ended up getting two losses. So next time, the gut wins over. Over those guys.
- [13:09]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I think it was the only time all season that you guys actually lost back to back games. So there was definitely a bit of a lull there.
- [13:15]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, the White House, I mean, it's exhausting. I went through it. I went. I got to go with the spurs as well. And you know, like, Asia shows up looking all cute and her heels and stuff. I was like, I looked at her, I remember thinking, girl, you're gonna be carrying those heels by the end of the day, I promise you. And sure enough, she was. You know, but like I said, I felt like we had our stretch there where we were playing tired basketball, maybe sloppy basketball, whatever. And there's. There's loads like that. But then towards the end of the season, I felt like we started playing much better and I felt like New York started to not play as well. I thought they were lucky to win a couple games that they had a game at Connecticut, I thought they were very lucky to win a game at Dallas, I thought they were very lucky to win. And then they end up, you know, dropping that last game in Washington that I have times with my team, I'm like, hey, we're winning games, but we're not playing well. There's a difference. And my standard is always playing well. It doesn't always show up wins and losses. There's a way to win and there's a way to lose. But we were flirting with losses even though we were winning games at certain stretches. And so to address that, it's hard to get on people and toe the line when you're winning games, because a lot of times, what, Coach? We won. And it's like, no, we need to fix this if we want it, because it's always the bigger goal. It's not just always just about winning that one particular game. It's about setting in place really great habits and cleaning things up as you go along throughout the season so that you're ready to win at the end of the season.
- [14:43]
Host
You know, you mentioned those kind of late New York losses. I'm just curious. And obviously this is a safe space. No one is listening. I'm just kidding.
- [14:50]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, right.
- [14:51]
Host
But, you know, how closely, like, are you watching, I guess, New York through. Through the stretch run against Connecticut. You mentioned that loss to Washington, like, and when you're watching them, kind of. What are you watching watching for?
- [15:04]
Ben Pickman
I'm watching everything. I mean, there's 12 teams in this league, and, you know, you pay attention the whole thing. It's your life, it's your livelihood, and it's. Although, also, like, my job to watch and pay attention. So, of course, we were watching especially late down the stretch with how everything was just kind of playing out with seating and all that. Like I said, we had our stretch where we didn't start, we didn't. We weren't playing great. And. And then I thought, you know, even. Even that Washington series, I mean, Washington gave them about all they could handle there and again, probably was fortunate to win game one there or game two. Sorry. And, you know, so look, we had our battles with Dallas. We've struggled with Dallas in the regular season. So it's all about just, you know, meeting the challenge that stands in front of you, and it's about the team that you're playing that day. But do we have eyes across, like, the whole. The whole league? Yes, of course. Of course.
- [16:03]
Sabrina Merchant
So, I mean, you mentioned that you guys started playing better as the rest of the season went on, and obviously the. I think the rest probably played into that. I mean, the schedule of the playoffs is so much more spaced out than that regular season stretch that you were going through. But I'm curious, like, you mentioned the pressure earlier that you guys felt at the, you know, various points during the year. There was that time in August when you guys were just hitting milestone after milestone. Like, I think it was first WNBA team to win 30 games and Asia scores 53 points. And there are all these historical things you're hitting. I know you don't think about those in the moment, but, like, does it affect you? Like, is it heavy to, like, I don't know, be kind of experiencing history at the same time?
- [16:40]
Ben Pickman
Well, I think, you know, there's a couple things, right, like, just managing expectation. I know how competitive my locker room is. I know how driven they are, how professional they are. And honestly, the perception is, you know, Vegas should pound people by 20 points, certain teams, and it just doesn't work that way. I mean, sometimes the ball does not go in the hole. Sometimes you don't play well. Sometimes somebody on another team gets hot, sometimes, you know, so there's. There's always. Throughout the course of the game, you're always making adjustments and tweaking things for whatever the game calls for, right? And I think the pressure, the expectation, it can either really play for you or against you. Some people love pressure, some people shrink in pressure, and it just kind of. Everybody's different. I think you see even. Even the great ones, you know, that really, like the big pressure moments. Chelsea, Asia, Jackie, like, for us, the people that like pressure, it tends to bring the best out of you, but it's going to bring something out of you. It's going to bring. There's. Most of the time, there's not a lot of in between. It's either like, pressure brings the worst out of you or pressure brings greatness out of you. And I thought how we handle pressure, how we handle expectation, is really important for their mental health. Actually, more than anything.
- [18:03]
Sabrina Merchant
I think the first time you guys, you know, hit some significant adversity during the playoffs was during that Dallas series. I'm thinking, particularly game three, right? You guys are down double digits in the fourth quarter. Go on that big run to end the game, close out the series. What do you remember about that game and, like, what the locker room felt like afterwards?
- [18:19]
Ben Pickman
Obviously, you know, you make it back to the finals, you're ecstatic at that point, right? But I remember just big stops. I remember Alicia Clark getting some big rebounds and us really buckling down. And that was something, you know, going into the season, I was like, okay, our offense was. Our offense. It was very good. The only way I felt like we could get better offensively is if we got better defensively. And so that was really the goal. So to really have our season comes down to getting stops in that Dallas game, and not only that, in the New York series, especially in game four, like, to hold that team to 69 points with, you know, Chelsea Gray out and Kia Stokes, who are very good defenders, was just an incredible job. Again, I referenced Alicia Clark with her defensive effort and what she brought to the table, you know, because the depth chart got real tight real quick. And, you know, I just. I had to have Asia on. On Jonquill every minute of the game, basically. And then, you know, Alicia, you have to handle Stewie, which is crazy to ask anybody to do. And we did it as a group. But Alicia her defense in the finals, like, it came down to defense. We won a championship with defense where last year, probably more offense.
- [19:45]
Host
You mentioned the New York series, so. So let's talk about it. You know, two one, you guys are up. Game four, Chelsea's down and Kia is down. We should say they were uncommittal about their statuses initially in game five, and Kia is still in a boot. Let the record show. Or was two weeks ago in Cabo. But can you just take us through, in between games three and four, a meeting with coaches, talking with players. You know what scenes jumped out in your mind as you're concocting this plan to change up everything you're doing and try and rally the troops, knowing that it's going to be 18, 000 strong in Barclays Center. You know, what kind of behind the scenes moments kind of stick out in your mind now, looking back?
- [20:22]
Ben Pickman
Well, when I got the information, obviously on Chelsea and Kia wasn't good, right? So I had my little moment of a meltdown for about five minutes in my room, in my hotel room. And then after I had my little, you know, meltdown, I just started brainstorming on different things that, you know, get over it. Nobody feels bad for us, okay? Nobody's feeling sorry for us. So how are we going to pull out a game that I would say most people wrote us off on, especially since they just kicked our butt the game before Full, full throttle roster, right? So I just started brainstorming. I called Asia, called Jackie, I called Plum. Obviously I was speaking with. With Key and Chelsea as well, But I said, look, this is what we're going to do. This is my plan. And I like, you know, you never know because we did some stuff, some new stuff. And I'm like, we're trying this stuff for the. For the first time ever. We practice it for probably five minutes defensively. And when I told my staff I come in, in the morning meeting, I'm like, okay, here's what we're going to do. They looked at me like I had 10 heads, but I was like, it's time to throw the kitchen sink and see if it works. I said, even if we don't know what we're doing, they won't know what we're doing either. So let's figure it out. Let's muck the game up. Let's just mess up the game. Let's just junk it up. And we did it with a bunch of different defenses and the individual defensive performances, though, and how we designed our game plan, defensively I thought worked really well. I mean, we were down nine at halftime, and I went in there and I'm like, this is exactly what we want. We weren't playing great offensively, but you have to understand that if you're playing defense that well, you're going to give your offense a chance eventually. I mean, our offense is great and we didn't shoot well in particularly as a team, but your defense always gives you a chance to win on nights that the ball's not going in the hole. And so, you know, like I said, we practiced it. I was like, looks like it looks good, actually. They really picked up on it and kind of understood the scheme. And as I explained what my idea was in into how we want to play the game and who we want shooting and who we want doing what, what we're willing to live with and what we're not willing to live with. You know, I knew, like, Courtney Vanders was going to hit some shots, okay? And that's why I was just adamant about, like, stick to the plan. Stick to what we talked about. And we always talked about poison the noise, and it was very loud in there. So composure. Stick with the plan. Believe in the plan and believe with each other and see what happens. Because I knew we weren't going to put up 90 points or 85 points. I was like, this is going to come down to getting stops, and I'll be darned if they didn't go out there and execute the crap out of it.
- [23:23]
Sabrina Merchant
Obviously, you never want to be in a position where you're missing two of your starters and, you know, two of your, like, six, seven player rotation in the closeout game. But I don't know, you guys all seemed so loose when we came in for practice and shoot around that week. Like, I remember talking to Ben, like, Chelsea's in a scooter, right? And Kia's got a boot on. Like, why do they all look so light? You know, was there something that was just like, okay, this is like another challenge that we get to approach. Like, this is, I don't know, I don't want to say fun, but, like, it seemed fun for you.
- [23:52]
Ben Pickman
Well, look, there's things that are out of your control. Really. The only thing that you can control is your attitude and approach, right? Like, okay, this is crappy. Everybody can see this is pretty crappy. This sucks. But to maintain your joy. And it's also not how they play with each other and how they care for each other is not determined by their basketball production and their basketball player how many wins we have or what? Like, these people genuinely like and care about each other. Um, so it's like, you know, when someone's down, like, we're going to pick you up as a group. We're going to pick you up, we're going to keep it moving in the right direction. And, you know, you have to figure out ways to get to a good space in your head not based on outcomes, especially outcomes that are out of your control. And so for myself and how I wanted to challenge the team, it was just, you know, this sucks, but also, this is a great opportunity for somebody else. And, you know, Kayla George coming in and Sid, and I mean, it just truly became this. This crazy. Like, I mean, Kayla hadn't played in probably a real game, like, up and down like that for a month and a half, but she stayed ready the whole time. The whole time. I mean, when I called her to tell her she was starting, because we could have gone, you know, with KB and gone small or this and that, and the two positions we were missing is you're five and you're one. Like, your head and your tail, like, it's. It's like, you know, we were cut off on both ends. And I think, you know, Kayla's a heck of a player. I mean, she's the Australian, you know, mvp. I got Sid over there sitting, just waiting. You know, I don't know if you like to drive fast cars, but Sid's got. Got it floored and the break at the same time. So all they have to do is like, to put her out there, she gotta let that foot off the brake and she's gonna go. But they're professionals. And I think that's something, you know, that you see the goofiness and the silliness. But let me tell you, when it's go time, they are all adults, and they are all supremely, again, professional in their approach.
- [25:59]
Host
How do you look back, like, as a, you know, kind of as a coach a little bit like, you know, I have a story coming out. By the time people listen to this on Friday with. I talked to Mark Campbell and did a thing on TCU and the craziness. I'm sure you've seen that they've gone through, right, having to literally add walk on players. And he was talking about their win over Central Florida. And I'm not trying to compare, you know, a regular season TCU UCF win to the game for the WNBA Finals, but he said, like, that victory gave you a glimpse into the heartbeat of tcu. And was one of the most rewarding victories that he's had throughout his whole career, just because of the resilience that his group showed in that moment. Do you kind of feel that same way when you look back at game four? Just conceiving of, you know, making strategy shifts, the fight that your team played with, Kayla George stepping up, Sidney Coulson stepping up. Like, do you look at it just from that, you know, championship winning nature aside, just from a pure victory standpoint, how do you kind of reflect on it?
- [26:54]
Ben Pickman
Well, I mean, the tcu, you know, Central Florida, here's the thing. What it took is the same thing. It took the same elements to. To gut out wins like that. So whether it's a. It's a game on Tuesday night, wherever in Texas or in Florida or wherever they were, or it's a game with the highest stakes. That's why the character and all these little intangible things matter so much, because you never know when you're gonna have to draw on them. And so, like I said, and I said it post game, I think after game four, like, I know exactly who's in my locker room. I know exactly the type of work ethic they have, the belief that they have, the types of people that they are, the kind of teammates that they are like. And like I said, I didn't know if we were going to win or lose that Game 4, but I felt like we were going to give ourselves a chance. And it really stems from leadership within the team, you know, And I heard somebody say the other day, the best locker rooms are the ones that are police by themselves, and I don't have to police our locker room. You know, they're adults. They know how to handle their business, and they hold each other accountable. So I knew all those things were working in our favor because that's the fiber of who we are. And so that's kind of what we drew on. It took all of us, every single one of us to get there. But to be. To be true, like, and honest, the. We were never whole. The whole year. We really weren't. We went from super team to, like, wounded team to, like, oh, crap team, like, oh, man, like Candace and then BAE and then Chelsea and then Kia. So it was just, you know, one thing after another, and we just felt like, keep digging in. Keep. Keep putting one foot in front of the other and playing the right way and, you know, keep giving. Keep even when it feels like you need to be in kind of this survival scarcity mode where you're just Trying to get everything you can. No, it's. It's actually the opposite. Keep giving, giving, giving, and you'll get 100 fold back.
- [29:00]
Sabrina Merchant
I do want to ask one more question about the finals just before we get big picture again. But, you know, I think for any fan of the sport, like, the way that game ended was just so perfect. Just I'm going to be thinking about that possession at the end of game four for a very long time. What do you remember about that defensive stand, you know, to hold them to 69 points at Barclays Center?
- [29:20]
Ben Pickman
Well, first of all, you know, you take a guess at what they're going to do, right? And we wanted to keep matchups initially because I think we were switching a lot, and we didn't want to switch that last one because we needed size on the appropriate people. So, you know, we wanted Alicia, we knew absolutely on Stewie. So she's going to fight through screens. And I think, you know, there's. There's little things that go into it. And this is what I love about my team, is that I think AC at some point, I saw shoot. So you see a lot of things when you go back and watch. And I did not see this in the game. Now, when I went back and watched it the first time, I saw this. But I haven't watched film with my team on game four yet. But Sidney Coulson jumps and disrupts the rhythm of this pass. And when you're talking about milliseconds, you know, the difference between winning and losing could be 0.3, 0.4. In just that extra moment to gather, she disrupts this pass and really allows Alicia Clark to kind of move Stewie in a way that Stewie has to readjust. She kind of hits it and kind of like grabs it, and it takes her a second to collect. And I saw AC the other day give Sid a shout out. And it's like, I think the validation in the little things, like we see you and how I. I try to do that as a coach when they do little things that. That probably never show up on a stat sheet or little things that most people don't notice. But I love that Alicia gave her that. That shout out because it. It saved us probably 0.5 of a second, which could be the difference between Sloop being rushed and not being rushed. And so that was just something little that started off the whole possession, right? That's the inbounds pass. And one thing about, you know, coaching and drawing last second plays, the inbounds pass is always the hardest and that's what I don't think people understand. That person has to understand absolutely what the action is, where it's going for, and who cares what kind of play you draw if you can't get the ball inbound? Like, it's literally the most important part, besides making that shot at the end, is the decision making, the timing and understanding of what's going on. So just the disruption from the start. Jackie. It's just funny because that last rotation was something we were working on. It was kind of a theme for us, especially in that series, because New York moves the ball so well. It was, keep playing, keep playing, keep rotating, keep playing, keep rotating. The fact that Jackie gets the rotation, the last play of the game, and it helps us win the game on the defensive end, it was pretty dope. I loved it. I loved it. But, you know, Jackie Wentz goes, makes Stewie give it up, right? We don't want Stewie shooting, that's for sure. You know, kicks out, Plum rotates. Jackie sees Plum rotate, and she just keeps running to the next one. It's like textbook closeout, especially when we knew we had to keep Asia on the bottom there on Jonquill. So it was just really heads up by Jackie, really by all of them. You know, for Plum to rotate, for Jackie to keep rotating, you know, it was just. It was just a. I could pick apart that defensive stand for an hour. I'll spare you, though.
- [32:35]
Advertiser 1
This is good.
- [32:36]
Sabrina Merchant
I like the detail about the inbounds pass, too. I. I always think about Jackie and Alicia converging on Stewie and then Jackie, you know, getting back to the corner. But, yeah, Sid starts it all.
- [32:45]
Host
Yep.
- [32:46]
Ben Pickman
Low ball pressure, anticipation, and, like I said, just that little 0.5. That 0.5 would have given Sloop one more. One more half second to get her feet set. And, I mean, SLU can make that shot in her, in her. In her sleep. But when it's rushed like that, and then you see Jackie Young, who's one of the biggest, best athletes in the league, like, running at you full speed out of your peripherals, right? You're getting the ball from here, so you can see Jackie just. Just tracking you the whole way. And so it was a hell of a play, hell of an effort all the way around by all of them.
- [33:21]
Host
You know, you kind of talk about. You mentioned kind of watching that playback, and certainly we can see and hear the excitement, the glow that you feel thinking about that sequence. And we talked at the beginning of the show about the celebration that you guys had afterwards. But for you as a coach, like, when do you start to turn the page and how do you do that in terms of, you know, looking from last season to the upcoming 2024 year?
- [33:44]
Ben Pickman
I mean, my brain does not turn off, that I can just start my. It just, it's always spinning, it's always working. That's why it's hard for me to sleep a lot of nights. Just because in season out of season, there's things that you just replay coming into the new season, how I want to approach it, how I want our theme to be, how I want to challenge them coming into it and then going out and being about to work. I mean, at the end of the day, this year is going to be harder than last year. And last year was hella hard. Like it was hard dealing with what all the stuff that we had to deal with physically and emotionally. And I, and I think coming into this year, I think there's just like an, an understanding that like anything less than a championship is not going to be good enough, will be a letdown. And so we come in with the pressure and we'll operate fine under that pressure, but we, we know what the deal is. And I think, you know, this is, this is going to be my third year with them. They know me very well. I know them very well. So at the end of the day, like I said, I know the kind of competitors and people that they are. And so I always like us. I always like us even shorthanded. I like us because I just believe in them that much.
- [35:13]
Sabrina Merchant
We talk a lot about the skill work that your players do during the off season and how they improve from year to year. But what do you try to improve upon as a coach? Like what, what does your off season, I don't know, prep look like?
- [35:23]
Ben Pickman
Obviously you go back and watch our games, look at areas that you, you want to improve on, how you can improve your roster. Different, different ideas, different rotations, things that we can try differently, maybe that we tried last year, that we didn't like, tweak some things, but we've instilled a pretty good system offensively and defensively. So I'll challenge them. I'm going to throw some other stuff at them, but the more they have this comfortable feel with each other and are comfortable with, and trust me, right? And we talk about trust a lot. It has to be a two way street. I have to give them a lot of trust too. It can't just be them giving me trust. It has to be reciprocated. And I Think we've built a lot of trust. So now they trust me so much when they know if we come in with a scheme and it's not working, they know I'm going to change it. Like, I do not like getting my butt beat down on something, the same thing over and over and over again, like we're going to try something different. And I just think they know I'm willing to adjust to them or to whatever's going on in the game. So going into this season, I just think we have greater purpose and a greater understanding of our identity and who we are as a team and as an organization. So really good things to build off kind of cornerstone pieces. And they've really bought in. And now they've seen it that, like, when everybody gives, everybody gets more. And that's a hard concept for players to understand. It's a hard concept to understand that. So I'm just supposed to give. I'm just supposed to give, give, give, give, give. And what I remind them of is that, yes, yes, you have to be as committed to that person on your left and that person on your right be committed to their success as much as your own. And I think at the end of the day, they've seen that when they do that, really great things and special moments are possible. Really, the sky's the limit when you have that kind of buy in and that kind of drive for not only yourself, but for each other. And this team has tremendous drive for each other.
- [37:44]
Sabrina Merchant
This is a little off topic, but I couldn't let you come on here and not ask you this. What is your favorite Sidney Coulson story from the 2023 season?
- [37:51]
Ben Pickman
Oh, man, we pranked her pretty good. That was Plum's idea. So that was fun to get her like that because she's always busting everybody with jokes and stuff. We had some moments where, I don't know if it was my favorite moment, but just where her personhood comes into play. In our locker room, we had a couple players who were just, you know, whatever. And it's like, I looked at Sid after one practice, I said, go handle it so I don't have to go handle it. And she does. And I think she's somebody who. She's such a gel. She's a uniter, right? And when you think about, like, leadership and really great people of influence, they're united, like, they bring people together. And she has that personality trait, like, you want to hang out with her, you want to be her friend and. But any specific story, I mean, I Loved when I gave her the game ball in Minnesota because everybody thought we were going to give it to Plum because Plum just rolled off, I think, 47 points or whatever. And the way Plum got up to, like, catch that ball and then I threw it to Sid, like, so we're always just busting on each other, messing with each other. You got to keep it fun. Life is short. Like, we're professional basketball players. It's not like we're out here solving world hunger. Right? Like, you should be living your best life right now. This is absolutely the funnest job in the world. Like, every day I want you to show up happy and energetic to go to work, and then we move from there. But the energy, the vibe, that's. They all bring that individually into the gym every day because that's just who they are. And Sid is one of them. She's always smiling, always smiling.
- [39:39]
Host
You know, just a quick roster construction follow up as it relates to Sid. You know, obviously, like, she's not playing as much as some of your starters, but as you talk about, she plays an integral role on the team. There aren't a lot of players like her in the wnba, you know, just personality, but also just kind of who play that role. Like, whereas we see in the NBA, you know, a. Udonis Haslam and Nick Collison, someone who, you know, historically might not play as many minutes, but is very important to the fabric of a team, I guess. Why don't you see? Why do you think we don't see more? We'll call it Sidney Coulson's in the WNBA. Is it just the 11 and 12 player roster, salary cap constrictions? Yeah.
- [40:17]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. You just name both of them. The reason you're a smart guy, that. That's it. You named it. So you can move on to your next question because you answered your own question. That's exactly it. I mean, you just don't have the space. But for me, I'll take competitive and character over. Those are my two things, competitiveness and character. Because from what I've seen, the most talented people don't always win. It's the most competitive people, the people that have character in the locker room. Because if your culture, your culture will be what your character is. If your character sucks, your culture is going to suck. So I'm really, like I said, I'll take one roster spot. Even if. Even if Sid never played a minute now, people know she's in the wnba. It's not like people like, she's like, she is a Very good player. She's in the wnba. It's not like she doesn't have skill. She does. But for purposes on our team, you know, she feels a lot of roles. She'll probably get more burned this year because at the end of the day, she's fast. I know that. And she's a pain in the butt defensively, so to throw her in and be able to mix it up here and there on people, I think is a nice, refreshing look for us, as well as providing entertainment, the entertainment that she does for everybody else.
- [41:39]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, Candace obviously didn't get to play as much as she wanted to this year, but everybody on the roster talked about, like, what a just a privilege it was to have her in the locker room. Like, does anything that she did stand out to you? Especially, like, during that playoff run?
- [41:51]
Ben Pickman
Her presence, I think, is the biggest thing. Her voice, her encouragement. She's somebody that her words have impact, you know, how she says things, the way she handles herself, how she communicates with her teammates has. Has large impact. And I think because of everything that she's accomplished in her career, she's become just that influential piece. And not only in our locker room, but in the world of women's basketball, in NBA basketball, she got a voice, and she's been around. She knows what she's talking about. She's about winning. She's about the right things. And so just. I'll just say her presence is the biggest one. You know, you feel it when she walks in the room, and that's when, you know, somebody got that it factor. She's had it factor on her for her entire life. She's been that it girl, whether she was at Tennessee, in la, Chicago, wherever. She has it factor. And so there's nothing that I taught her or anybody Pat didn't teach her that the good Lord gave her that it factor. So she's always a pleasure to talk hoops. She always wants to talk hoops. So, yeah, I mean, she had a huge impact on us, I feel, even once her surgeries and stuff. And I told her, as soon as you can come around the team, I mean, surgeries, obviously, you have to take time to recover and do your due diligence with rehab and whatnot. But, you know, she would get mad at me because I'd pull her out of practice, and I'm like, be mad at me. It's all right. We're big girls. We'll figure it out. But, like, I'm not trying to win practices. It's enough. You've had enough. I see your body's had enough. And so, you know, she's just ultra competitive. And what I know about people like that, whether it's a Manu Ginobili or a Tim Duncan or a Candace Parker or a Asia Wilson, like, go down the plum, those ultra competitive people like you almost have to save them from themselves because they will run themselves into the ground and that won't be productive for anybody. So you could be mad at me for five minutes. I'm good with that. And then we'll move on and you'll be ready to play. So, you know, I'm glad she's, she's, she, she's just the ultimate pro. I mean, her rehab stuff she does for her body throughout her career, it's amazing that she's played as well as she has for this long because she's, she's got a lot of mileage on those legs. She's played a lot of basketball over the course of her lifetime. So she's just a special human and we love her. So, yeah, we're happy she's ours.
- [44:34]
Host
You know, as we close out with our last question or two, you know, let's go from Candace real quick to the other end of the, I guess, age spectrum in the sport with, you know, Caitlin Clark in the college game. And, you know, we'd be remiss if we didn't ask. Obviously, she's had an unbelievable year in career at Iowa. Just what do you think her impact will be when she goes to the wnba? Whether it is this year, as some Indiana Fever fans hope those are my words, not yours, or next year, if she does elect to return to college one more season.
- [45:05]
Ben Pickman
Well, I'm sure Indiana, of course, wants her to come out. I don't know if she is or not. That's a decision that I'm sure she'll take her time about. I know. I'm glad. If she wanted to stay in college, that's one less year I have to deal with her. So her impact has been tremendous. I mean, what she's done with women's basketball, you know, because those fans, those people that she's exposed to, to really her greatness, you know, they're going to follow her. And I think it's just better. It's, it's great for women's basketball. It's going to be great for the W. When she comes in, she's just, I mean, I'm a fan. I'm a huge fan, I think. And the other thing is about her, like her game's going to translate. Sometimes there's college players that they dominate and this and that. I don't know if their game is always going to translate. But you can see her work ethic, her professionalism already right now at Iowa and how she approaches her craft and what she's doing there as well. Yeah, I'm good with her staying another year. Christy Sides is going to be texting me, like, what? No, I mean, she's unbelievable. I'm a fan. Like I said, if I was on, I'm turning on and I'm watching and really, that's what you want? Because, you know, I'm a junkie. I'm a. I'm a pretty tough critic. It takes a lot to like for me to be like, oh, damn. Like, you know. But yeah, she's going to make you shake your head. And as a fan, as a coach, you're like, man, yeah, she's. She's special. She's generational.
- [46:42]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. Just to close out for me on the topic of greatness and generational, I feel like I tried to ask you guys this all year and everyone was just like, we're trying to win the next game in front of us. One thing at a time. Keeping the main things. Sabrina, I mean, you've had a full offseason here. You the first team to Repeat in over 20 years in WNBA, you know, number one in offense, number one in defense. Like, have you had a chance to reflect on just what that means in the context of WNBA historically, or, like, I don't know, what do you think about this team with a little bit of hindsight?
- [47:11]
Ben Pickman
Well, when you start putting the numbers down, like wins, losses, this and that, it's unbelievable what these women have accomplished in such a short time. But we're always going to be on to the next challenge. It's hard to keep challenging teams and keep them engaged. This is why people don't repeat. This is why people don't get to 2, 3, 4 champions back to back like that. Because it's hard. And not only that, you're dealing with a lot of things that are completely out of your control, like injuries or, you know, a thousand different situations come up through the course of the season that you're managing, but we're starting to go into some uncharted territory, that's for sure. We're. We're the ship that's like turning the corner and heading into that uncharted territory. But it's not just about discovering we want to dominate that territory. We want to take control of that territory. And I think with anything, whether that's in life and business, whatever, there's, there's some things where your will and your desire to just get things done has to take over. Like, you just have to want it that badly. And when you've been, you know, handed that trophy the last couple times, it's hard to generate that kind of want to over and over and over again. And especially you're dealing with, you know, I always say I've lost two game threes now, like, smacked, smacked. And I can never convey the type of force and energy that we're about to go into because one locker room is extremely pissed off and the other one is happy. And when those two things meet, it's not going to be good. And so when I try to explain that to him, but it's just really hard to grasp as you're playing because, like, we're up to zero. And it's like, understand that that other team, this is a, a life or death situation. This is our season on the line. You know, it's, it's, it's lose or go home. So that kind of approach and force and emotional energy is hard to replicate. It's the same thing why I can't replicate a game in practice. Like, you can play and do all that, but it's hard to simulate an actual game in practice, practice because of the emotions and the energy in the arena and all these other things. So we'll see. I know as, as I'll tell them too. We know what the goal is and let's go to work every day and let's be intentional and purposeful in how we approach not only our everyday practice and stuff, but, but how we move and interact and treat each other.
- [49:47]
Host
I think that's kind of a perfect place to leave it. You know, there is so much more. Obviously we could dive in on Colorado State in the late 90s being all over the WNBA. Asia Wilson has a new book coming out. I'm sure there's another trip your players are going on that maybe you'll see pictures too down the road. But, you know, we appreciate you joining us and sharing so many of your stories, Becky, reliving all the joy and the excitement from the championship last year. Maybe, you know, certainly we'll go back and watch the end of game four that last possession. I think on loop as all this free agency news comes down. I think people should rewatch that and remember that that is what it is all for. So, you know, enjoy the rest of the off season. We thank you so much for coming on the show and we hope to have you again on the show again down the line, whether that is after maybe you win another championship next year, maybe it's during the season leading up to it, but we look forward to talking soon. The season is somehow creeping up on us. It will be here sooner than everyone knows it. So thanks again for joining us.
- [50:43]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, thank you guys. We'll see you in probably a month and a half, two months or so.
- [50:46]
Zena Kaeda
Thank you, Ben and Sabrina for that wonderful interview and Becky, of course, for your time. It's always amazing to hear about those, those clutch plays or key moments from like championship winning moments and games, particularly from the perspective of the person that was masterminding it. So you can go in depth as much as you want, but it's always an extra detail that you probably will never see unless you're someone like Becky Hammond. I also love this concept of not having to police your locker room. I just remember back to like when you start playing sports and you have to, you know, run sprints and if you know your teammate isn't touching the line, like call out your teammate, Touch the line, like, don't have to make your coach call it. Across sports, the top performing teams are those that hold themselves to a high standard and they hold each other accountable when they're not meeting that standard. So definitely a championship mentality. Before we go today, I do want to do something I haven't done in a while and go off the script. So of course with it being Black History Month, I wanted to share some black history facts that or information that as I was looking around the Internet to see, you know, what could I find. And one thing I definitely realized is that there's not enough information on the early teams that featured black female basketball players. There's lists of them and maybe there's a roster here or there. But a lot of the information, information is high level points of they were the first team or they were the second team and they traveled here, but there's not much else on them. And I realized it's mainly because they were barnstorm teams. And for those of you that don't really know what barnstorm teams are, they weren't just in basketball, they were in baseball as well and in a lot of sports. But basically as white players were able to play these sports more seriously and be able to win the awards and the championships and things of that sort. If black players, before there was true integration, shout out to Jackie Robinson. But before there was true integration, if they wanted to play these sports, they had to play them in the barnstorm fashion, which meant they had to play them in an entertaining style where people would actually buy tickets to come see them play expecting to be entertained not necessarily by sports, you know, elite sports talent or athleticism, but more so almost circus like acts, right? So they would barnstorm and they would play each other. And of course you'd see true basketball being played and the technical elements of the game were there. But then you'd also maybe see, you know, crazy passes or no look assists or you know, spinning the ball on your finger in the middle of a play or crazy dunks or whatever it was. There was always something fun or entertaining and again circus like to it. And it was the only way that some of these players would be able to play the sport they loved. But it definitely wasn't the way they wanted to play in terms of getting the recognition and the admiration and the true pay that they deserved. So looking around there wasn't ton of information because people weren't covering barnstorm teams like that. So it makes sense. But I was looking for some of the early all black female basketball teams and I came across several names including the Chicago Romas, who the one fact I could find about them was that for six years they played men and women's basketball teams shortly after World War II and for six years they went undefeated. Wish I knew more than that. But everywhere I look at them, Chicago Romas, that's all that is said about them. And if that is the truth, if that is the statement, that is an unreal, unreal feat. But as I was looking them up, I found another site on harlemworldmagazine.com so just putting that out there, that is my source. But they were talking about a team called the New York Harlem Chicks. And the reason why I want to mention them is because there was actually someone in the comments of this article that mentioned that their father was involved with this team. And so she knew a little bit about them. But basically they on this site they claimed that this was the first all female African American basketball team in the USA and they were supposed to be the female equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters. And so again, Harlem Globetrotters being one of the oldest clubs in American history, they just started integrating women. I know Lynette Woodward was of was their very first player that they ever had join. And then more recently they've been getting a lot more players that are women on their team. But apparently there was a women's basketball team dedicated to the Same element of entertainment as the Globetrotters. And they were called the New York Harlem Chicks. And they played teams across the country. They barnstormed. They were segregated, and they barnstormed In North Dakota, South Dakota, Washington state, Minnesota, Nebraska, NYU, Wyoming, from 1958 to 1960, again, directly quoting Harlem World magazine. And they played a lot of these other teams that we're talking about. There's pictures on this site. You can look it up, of Judy Price. Apparently, that was turning. I guess she's. She's in one of these pictures, and she broke ground and she opened for the Harlem globetrotters in the 1950s on their tours, which is really cool and just evidence that, you know, this team existed. Which is. Which is cool. But in the comment, this woman says, Erin Hovland, which is the daughter of Dempsey Hovland, who apparently created this team, she said, this is one of my father's teams. And this team, the Harlem Chicks, actually became the Harlem queens in the 1960s, and they played against men's teams all over the United States. And that, you know, was really cool to see that. She. Obviously, they were talking more in the comments of people on the team, talking about this years later and reminiscing on this time. And this was a team I never knew existed. So if you didn't know, just wanted to share off that information. And if you find out even more information throughout this Black History Month about black female basketball players, please, please, please, please let us know, or anyone that influenced the game. That would be really, really cool. All right, folks, that is all for today. Until next time, I'm encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning, and keep loving the game.
- [56:29]
Ben Pickman
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Ben Pickman
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Ben Pickman
So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
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Ben Pickman
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