← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:00]
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Sabrina Merchant
Love.
- [02:52]
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- [04:57]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by Michelob Ultra. Welcome to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. I'm Sabrina Merchant. As you've noticed, Xena Keda is off for the week, but fear not, I am joined by Chantelle Jennings and Ben Pickman as we take some questions to wrap up the year in Women's Basketball. Thank you everyone for submitting them. Whether that was via Twitter or just our articles in the Athletic, we appreciate all the support in terms of reading our stories, so let's just get right into it. Yesterday we're recording on Thursday, so on Wednesday I wrote a story about the top player of the year candidates in the country heading into conference play. And we got an interesting question in that comment section about Anissa Morrow. And the question is, is player of the Year just based on offense, offense, defense, or the totality of the player? It seems too much emphasis is placed on offense, and defense is overlooked when it comes to the best player of the year awards. So, Chantel, I'll throw this to you real quick. Do you think that Anisa Mora was an oversight on my part, or do you think that I'm a little too offense heavy when it comes to these discussions?
- [06:17]
Ben Pickman
I feel like your article kind of looked broadly at a lot of players who are in this conversation, I think still, like, we haven't gotten into the thick of conference play, which is when a lot of players can sort of really make those moves. I think we have those players who've stuck their flag in the ground early or sort of have carried over from previous years. That's not to say that omitting Anissa was somehow saying that she's definitely not in the conversation. I think we're always conscious about word count, something we have to keep in mind as writers. I guess that's a question for you, Sabrina. Do you think you're too heavy on offensive input for these players? Are you weighing that end of the floor too much?
- [06:55]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, I had Cameron Brink and Hannah Hidalgo both in this conversation, who I think are both more impactful on the defensive end than offense in very different ways. I think the main reason I didn't take anyone from lsu, I know Angel Reese is still the betting favorite from that team for like, basically every site that you look at. You know, it's just, it's been so hectic with what's been going on at lsu. Like, Anissa Mora wasn't even starting at the beginning of the season and they've played maybe one good team since she really went on this hot streak. So it's kind of like last year with the Tigers. I'm just sort of waiting for them to show up against some good opponents and then we'll see what happens. But I don't think it's any necessarily offense or defense bias. I mean, we're two years removed from Aaliyah Boston being the national player of the year, so it's not like defense is not a consideration here. It's definitely easier to look at offense and to judge offense, and it's more fun to watch offense just for my subjective opinion, but I'd like to think that we pay Attention to both sides of the ball. I mean, Camilo Cardoso, also on this list, is a name to watch. So I'm definitely going to keep more of an eye on LSU going forward as they get to the meat of this SEC schedule. You know, I want to see what A and M looks like. I want to see what South Carolina looks like against them. But just with all the chaos surrounding LSU this far, it was really hard to pick a player of the year emerging from that team at this point of the season.
- [08:15]
Unnamed Speaker
And that was what was expected, I think. Or like, this is not surprising that she's kind of on the outskirts of any player of the year discussion. Like, you join lsu, a team with Angel Ree as a team, with Hayley Van Lith going there, Mikayla Williams is a freshman making an impact. That's kind of the choice that she probably knew she was going to be on the outskirts of any awards discussions or further down the list than she was at DePaul where she was putting up crazy numbers and making, you know, what was she second team All American. I think her, her freshman year, like right off the bat, just making a huge impact. So I don't really think it's a surprise that she didn't necessarily make your list for that reason. And what you mentioned, Sabrina, on the offense, can I just say, defense, offense, like, we have better metrics than we have historically, like now in women's college basketball and in the WNBA too, though there's still plenty of room for improvement there. But it's also way harder to just evaluate defense for even us as journalists, let alone a casual consumer or a fan. So I don't think it's us or anyone trying to not value defense. But there is just some truth in that. It is tougher to break it down, both because the data we have accessible or not, and just how hard it is to to evaluate, you know, strong defense.
- [09:31]
Ben Pickman
I'll second that point, Ben, because I do feel like, especially with defensive players and like Hannah Hidalgo is one of those examples where she's averaging six steals a game, which is just an absolutely bonkers number. Like, but you know, even beyond that, when you watch her play, sort of the unforced errors she makes opponents make or the number like, you know, we talk about someone like Rory Harmon, there's not a stat for how many times she makes an opposing ball handler sort of change direction or second guess themselves. And so there's a lot of these statistics where it's like beyond the numbers in the eye test. And I think we can sort of see that. But there isn't like a perfect grade versus the offensive side where, you know, it's still not perfect. But I think you can get a better idea by, you know, being sure of the numbers backing up what you're seeing on the floor and on the defensive end. A lot of times it is also more team generated and so less so. I would say some, not all the time, but on the offensive end. And so it's just tougher sometimes.
- [10:25]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [10:26]
Sabrina Merchant
And I think the super team point is a really good part of it. I mean, most of my top candidates, I don't think there's going to be another All American on those teams. Whereas you look at LSU and you know, you mentioned Reece and Mikayla Williams who are going to put themselves in those conversations, like for freshman of the year and All American teams. So I think I probably skewed a little bit more towards players who are carrying a larger load for their teams than just individual outstanding seasons. But, you know, definitely someone to keep an eye on going forward. So I don't have another oversight.
- [10:56]
Ben Pickman
Well, I do appreciate our readers always keeping us honest and trying to make sure that we cover all of our bases. There was another question from one of the stories that we wrote, I think about a week ago. It was from our transfer tiers piece. It was our second update through the season that we did. And Robert Y. Asked us, why did none of these players choose the Big Ten? While Iowa did not have any available scholarships, other teams did. Iowa did have a scholarship spot available, though. But I think it's a fair question in terms of, you know, why are we sort of seeing the movement? Maybe it's not conference specific, but, Ben, I guess maybe I'll. I'll have you start on this one. Do you feel like there's a trend that we're seeing with transfers in terms of how or why they're making the moves? They are.
- [11:38]
Unnamed Speaker
I mean, I think there's a big question, obviously, and there's a lot at play. I think first the Iowa point, it is a really good question and I think it was one that we talked a lot about throughout the off season, quote, unquote, about why would a center, in my mind, I don't understand why a big center wouldn't want to go play at Iowa considering how high profile their games are, considering, you know, what it's like to play with Caitlin Clark, considering we saw Monica Sonano, who was a very, very good college player, get drafted in the WNBA and have an opportunity to make a team. I did think it would be a really good fit for a center had they wanted to transfer in there. I think one thing I've come to really try and understand, I was talking to Lauren Betts and her family about this when I wrote about her situation, was the work it takes to build a relationship with someone in the pre high school recruiting process or the pre college recruiting process I think is really important in a lot of these cases. Like we see some familiarity in a lot of transfers. You know, Sedona Prince going from Oregon to TCU is another good example of like having familiarity with a coach or a coaching staff. Lauren Best was someone who had familiarity from playing with Corey Close at Team USA and was recruited really hard by ucla. So I think that is always something to think about and consider when looking at where people are transferring out of and where people are transferring into who is recruiting them hard. And that's not to say the Big Ten like is only recruiting in a bubble, but tracking the network I think is something that is really important to do when trying to connect the dots and find out where people might be going to play.
- [13:02]
Ben Pickman
So I actually can kind of see the other side of it, Ben, from what you're saying in terms of why a player maybe or why we didn't see a higher profile big go to Iowa and I think it sort of wraps into the question of eligibility and you're looking at someone like Caitlyn and you're saying, okay, she has one year left, maybe two, but if she leaves after one, you know, who am I playing with then? And not to say that the players around Caitlin aren't going to elevate a potential two or three year player, you know, remaining at Iowa. But I think you kind of had this question of if you're a player with two years of eligibility remaining and you're thinking about the Monica Sonano sort of model, are you going to bank that she's going to return for those two years and if she doesn't, who are you going to be playing with when Caitlin's gone? I think that sort of question mark probably lingered in minds of players like Lauren Betts or players like, you know, Lauren Ware. I thought maybe Sedona Prince was a player. I was like, oh maybe, maybe she's going to leave Oregon to go to Iowa because she has one year of eligibility remaining. That could be potentially a good fit. But then she transferred back home to Texas tcu, but the state of Texas. And I think that's another sort of trend we've seen with transfers, especially Sort of after the COVID season, players using that year as, you know, trying to get home or trying to get closer to home.
- [14:21]
Sabrina Merchant
I just think the player development has been so good at Iowa that I would want to go there if I were big like you look at what happened with Megan Gustafson and Monica Sonato. You know, I think if you're a big who's trying to make it at the next level, that's just a place that I would want to be, whether Caitlin is the one feeding me or not. But yeah, playing in Iowa without Caitlin Clark is probably gonna be a very different experience than playing at Iowa with Caitlin Clark.
- [14:42]
Unnamed Speaker
Speaking of Caitlin Clark, we did get another question directly related to her via Troy on Twitter. Troy asked if Caitlin Clark will be on the Paris Olympic team. Maybe we'll talk through our projected rosters or just if we think she's going to make it. I don't know. Sabrina, why don't you kick us off on what you think might happen there?
- [15:01]
Ben Pickman
Yeah.
- [15:02]
Sabrina Merchant
So just for some history, it's not unprecedented for a player to get drafted number one and then make the Olympic team that year. In 2004, Diana Taurasi was on the Olympic team. 2008, Candace Parker was on the Olympic team. 2016, Brianna Stewart was on the Olympic team. Obviously the COVID year, the 2021 draft, that was a weird situation. We're not really going to talk about that. But like Neko Gumike also in consideration for the team in 2012. So being this young does not necessarily preclude you from being on the Olympic roster right away. So I think she's a name we should be considering, especially if the rest of her season goes like we think it's going to go if she starts off her WNB career with a bang like we expect. But the guard room is very, very crowded at the Olympics, especially because that player who was drafted in 2004 appears to still be holding onto a spot six Olympics later. So if you think like starting point guard on the Olympic team is going to be Chelsea Gray, starting two guard is going to be some combination of Jewel Lloyd, Jackie Young and Diana Tarazi is going to be in there. That's already four guards. I can't imagine they're going to carry more than six. We're still potentially considering, you know, Jackie Young, Arike Benaj, Elaine. I don't know whether you consider her guard wing, Kalia Capper. Like, that's just a lot of names that are already in the mix. I think USA Basketball is going to include her Just because they have a sense of the moment and they like to pick their new foundational stars. And Caitlin has a very long track record of playing USA Basketball at the youth levels. So I think it's going to happen. I don't think she's going to play very much, but I think she could easily be that 12th player on the team. I feel bad for whoever's going to miss out on the team as a result, but I do think that just the history of the committee suggests that they like to have a young player who's going to be the next face of the American team. So my guess at this point in December of 2023 is that Caitlin Clark is going to make the Olympic team, provided she declares for the draft, obviously, if she's still in college. Let's ignore this conversation, but that's where I stand.
- [16:52]
Ben Pickman
I think you're right in terms of sort of that propensity for the committee to choose one or two 21, 22, 23 year old players to sort of help build that experience of. You know, so much of Team USA is like the culture, you hear it whenever you're around the team, like the culture and like carrying the torch forward and having this legacy and all of the gold medals and like having that player who can carry that forward. So I think they are going to want that young player. But I think we get into an interesting spot where there's only 12 roster spots and if you're only going to take, you know, one young player, is Aaliyah Boston really not going to make this roster and Caitlin Clark will. And then if you're going to take both Aaliyah and Caitlin, then we sort of have 10 spots for these more veteran players. And you look at, you know, the roster of the returning players from the 2020, we'll call it that Olympics. You know, it's just really, really crowded and I don't know how they're going to do it. I think even in the guards, I don't. Maybe you said it and I missed it, but like Kelsey Plum is a name that probably should be mentioned. Like there's just so many players to Arike Ogunbawale, like all of these players who are still young don't have that Olympic experience yet, who, you know, maybe have played with a three on three team or the last round. We're so sort of told like, you know, your time is coming. It's just, it's a really, really crowded backcourt for Team usa, which is a great problem to have. And I would Love to be a fly on the wall when that committee meets.
- [18:21]
Unnamed Speaker
I mean, you missed some other names too. Sabrina Unescu, Ryan Howard, Alicia Gray, Skyler Diggins Smith. Like, we could keep going as all players who are all star, All W players who should be in the conversation have been in with the Team USA in the past. Like, I think, you know, arguing or making the point that, you know, the Team USA is trying to culture build and she could make the team that way. And that's not to say she wouldn't be deserving or could be impactful because, you know, she can just as a three point specialist, like coming off the bench if they want to stretch the floor against whatever country they are playing. Like, she has immediate value that way. I think unquestionably she'll be able to shoot it at the international level this summer, even if her impact, you know, as a whole might not be as great as some of the other players I just mentioned. So if they view her, you know, from a culture building standpoint and a specialist standpoint, I think, you know, there is some sense there. But we just rattled off, you know, a ton of names and to the point of Aaliyah Boston. I just think you look at the front court by comparison, and obviously Aaliyah has come in and made an instant impact in the WNBA being a unanimous rookie of the Year. But also the front court depth of Team USA is not nearly, you know, I don't think it is as strong as the backcourt depth as a whole. And certainly, you know, you have Asia and Stewie and at our top three MVP finalists from last year, who will be anchoring those spots and filling those spots. But you go down the list, it's much easier to slot Aaliyah Boston onto the roster than I think it is Caitlin Clark.
- [19:49]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, you say that our front court depth is limited and you just named three MVP candidates. Plus Brittany Griner probably going to make a return to Team USA at some point. She was already in camp this past November. Nafisa Collier was on the Olympic team too. So, yeah, maybe it's not as many names as we listed, but the quality of those names is pretty high up there. Those are all like first team, all WNBA type players. I kind of thought of Aaliyah Boston more as like, oh, she's gonna make it. Like, she's not even a young player anymore. She was an all star last year. Yeah, she's given.
- [20:18]
Ben Pickman
And also, I think you have to talk about the committee. Not that we're gonna say like, oh, certain people on the committee means anything in front particular, but Don Staley is on the committee. She's one of five people selecting this roster. Cheryl Reeve is the head coach. So, you know, Nafisa is basically, I would say, a two time Olympian at this point. Like, there's just certain, I would say, assumptions that we can make in terms of what this roster looks like. And when we break it down, I'm guessing there's like four open ish spots. I don't know. What do you guys think?
- [20:45]
Sabrina Merchant
Depends on health, too. Yeah. At this very moment, Ben Chantel, do you think that she's going to make it just like at this moment here?
- [20:53]
Ben Pickman
Are we talking about Caitlin Clark right now?
- [20:54]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah.
- [20:55]
Ben Pickman
I say no.
- [20:56]
Unnamed Speaker
I say no.
- [20:58]
Sabrina Merchant
All right, we have some dissent.
- [21:01]
Ben Pickman
This is good. This is great podcast drama.
- [21:04]
Sabrina Merchant
All right, let's talk UConn a little bit. We got a question about if UConn is sort of benefiting from the Alabama effect and that their history of being successful is keeping them at a certain level in the polls when their record wouldn't necessarily justify that at this point in the season. Ben L. Hopefully I'm not paraphrasing your question too terribly. It was just a very long question. Let's talk a little bit about UConn. Do you think that they are being overrated at this point? Are we talking about them too much relative to what they've accomplished? Chantel, you spent some time in stores. What do we think?
- [21:36]
Ben Pickman
I think it's interesting because I also sort of can see the other side of it where it's like they had those early season losses to the number two, three and four team, and then suddenly people are like, oh, my Go UConn. The sky is falling. This team is terrible. And it's like, well, they're good losses. And, and I will acknowledge that among sports writers, I am very much firmly established as someone who really respects quality losses. And I think all of those are quality losses. None of them were sort of 40 point blowouts where you looked at the game and thought it was never, you know, a shot for them. I still think it's as good of competition as we've seen them play. They're still sort of hard to gauge because Gino Auriemma is starting two freshmen. We have no idea sort of what the trajectory of this team is going to look like come March. I think the tough thing is that it's, again, health and depth, which is going to be a question mark for this team the whole season. If they're really going to ride with like Six players, six and a half. You know, for minutes wise, that's not a lot of room for error, and that's no room for any kind of mishaps in terms of player health or any sort of even minor injuries for this team. Aaliyah Edwards needs help on the glass somehow, whatever that looks like. I think, you know, Sabrina, you had said it earlier this year after maybe it was even as early as the NC State loss where you said, you know, we were sort of. We didn't realize how much UConn was going to miss Dorca, but it's been very, very evident thus far. So are we talking about them more than maybe any other team that also has three losses out there? I would say yes. But 14 straight final fours, 11 national championships will kind of get you that level of notoriety, especially when you have lost games. I remember, you know, when I was covering Michigan football, it was like, when Michigan football was winning games, Michigan football fans were engaged. But when Michigan football was losing games, it was like everyone in the country cared. Because it's like when you build up this aura and this legacy around a program and things aren't going sort of to plan, it seems like the sky is falling. So I sort of see both sides of it. This is still a team that was in the Final Four two years ago, which, you know, if you asked 95% of coaches across the country if they would take that sort of a like, situation where you were in the Final Four two years ago, I think most of them would say yes. But this also isn't any other team. This is UConn.
- [23:56]
Unnamed Speaker
I would add two years. They were in the final four two years ago and a decade in a row before that. So that is important. I mean, I think you kind of hit it pretty well. The thing I would add is that, like, we are talking about them more than, say, Marquette. And you can certainly say, like, if you are a Marquette fan out there who is undefeated right now, as we enter, you know, as the new year fast approaches, like, why are we talking about UConn more than we are Marquette? And I do think the answer to that is baked into, you know, just the legacy of those programs and what has happened with UConn at the start of the year involving injury and also the past history. And so I think, you know, there is some credence to the idea of, you know, with this person Ben L. Called the Alabama effect, like, we're talking about UConn more than Marquette because of the history that I think is true. You know, Marquette has A better net rating is better offensively and defensively so far than the Huskies. And so maybe we should just be talking about them more than we are. But we certainly know it's not an apples to oranges situation. And like, if we were seeding which team would be better in a bracket right now, you know, maybe it will look very different than the amount of time we are spending discussing a certain team. But yeah, I mean, I think the history does matter and that is kind of where we're at. And as you mentioned, Chantelle, too, UConn has some good losses and they haven't been a bad team. They are not 0 12. They're not, you know, 2 and 10 or whatever the math is right now. Like, they still have been pretty, pretty good so far this year.
- [25:22]
Ben Pickman
It's sort of the Tennessee Pat Summit effect, right? Like, this is a team that hasn't won a national championship in a while, but sort of their recent win success versus how much we talk about them. It might not be totally equal, but again, it's because sort of within this sport and within all sports, I think the history and the legacy counts for something. But yeah, Sabrina, I think the point you're about to make on scheduling is also very, very fair and important.
- [25:45]
Sabrina Merchant
It's so hard to judge how good some of these teams are at this point of the season because they're playing, you know, by games, you know, as Zena talked about a couple weeks ago on this show, where smaller schools are literally paying for the rights to play against these opponents to get on the national conversation. And UConn doesn't do that. Right. They've already played the number two, three and four teams in the country. And sure, maybe they weren't hyper competitive in any of those games. Like, I didn't think that they had a real chance of beating ucla. But the point is that they're playing games that deserve to be talked about at this point in the year. And as far as Marquette, like, we get a very good indication of how those two teams fare against one another because they play each other this Sunday on New Year's Eve. If you have nothing better to do at 10am Pacific, then watch Connecticut Marquette. But yeah, I think it's deserved just because of the fact that they're playing all the good teams. You know, yeah, maybe they're a little overranked at this point and they're seating like we should be talking about them as should they be hosting an NCAA tournament or not hosting at this point in the year. But like there's just so much time to have that conversation. And when it comes to December, I just want to talk about good games that are happening between quality teams. And UConn just finds themselves in a lot of those good games because of the way they schedule non conference.
- [26:58]
Ben Pickman
Well, why don't we jump from college hoops into the world of the W? And Andrew Brotherton on Twitter would like to know what does Atlanta do at point guard? Sabrina I'm going to throw this one your way.
- [27:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so we're recording on December 28th. WNBA free agency starts in January. Teams are allowed to start giving qualifying offers as early as January 10th or 11th. Forgive me, I don't know the exact date, but we'll be hearing rumblings of contracts being signed within a few weeks. So it's right around the corner. And as far as Atlanta, I think the number one takeaway from anyone who is watching their playoff games or a number of the games that they fell from ahead during the regular season was they could really use a veteran hand at point guard. Unfortunately, this isn't like a duper star studded point guard market in free agency. I think there's a lot of quality point guards who might be a little bit older than the timetable Atlanta is looking for. Like Natasha Cloud, great veteran. Is she the person you want to pair with Ryan Howard, you know, going forward for the next five years? I'm not sure I feel the same way about Jordan Canada. Skylar Dingen Smith is a name that gets thrown around a lot. That's the one I'd be looking at if I were Atlanta just because she has a little bit more offensive upside than those other two names. But then she also hasn't played in a year and that's quite a risk to take on for a 33 year old point guard. You know, when you have as much talent at the other positions as Atlanta does. If I were the dream, I would be really aggressively hunting some sort of sign and trade possibilities. I thought it was very strange at the end of the season that Kalia Capper and Jewel Lloyd both agreed to extensions with their existing teams instead of testing the free agent market. But what that does do is give those players an opportunity to force trades and get supermax contracts at their new teams. So if you think that Jewel Lloyd is your answer at lead guard. I know she's not technically a point guard, but she does do a lot of ball handling. She can create her own shot. I think that's enough of an offensive engine if you're the dream. If you just throw like a You know, grandfather offer at the Storm, like throw them some picks, give them a couple of young players like Aaron McDonald's or Nas Hillman or somebody and just say like here jewelry, take as much money as you want. That's what I would try to do flower Atlanta.
- [29:03]
Unnamed Speaker
I mean that's a super interesting possibility. Like I think that is a bold not it's a prediction, but it's a really interesting scenario. And you know, certainly Dan Pat over the GM there has shown that he's not afraid to make big swing trades. Think about them trading up to get the number one pick a few years ago to select Ryan Howard. And even last year, you know, they made some small, a small trade for, for Daniel Robinson in the off season to try and shore up some guard depth. Obviously what Sabrina is talking about is a much bigger swing, but unfree agency. I mean I think the over like you mentioned the names and Skyler digging Smith I think is the name that so many teams want and you're going to hear her name mentioned in every single conversation about like a team that needs a guard. The thing that I think and I would implore people to really realize and think about is that really a lot of these moves, any of them could happen if a player is willing to take less money. Right. And the WNBA is in a current state where stars can kind of choose where they want to play depending on what price they want to play for. Right. Scott, again, Smith could go to, you know, someone like Atlanta if she's willing to take slightly less money. Or Natasha Cloud could go to Atlanta. Or you know, you can juggle the math to fit into Las Vegas or even New York, though that's a little bit of a more difficult situation depending on how much a star wants to take. And we've seen in recent years players like Stewie or Asia Wilson when, when signing an extension take less money than might be worth on the open market because they want to play with other star players. And the difference for some of these stars between taking 240,000 or 200,000 or 150,000 or $100,000 is marginal when you have maybe a Puma deal or a Commerce deal or multiple other endorsements. And so that is some kind of overwhelming principle that until the Max and supermax contracts, the value of them are so much more than what you can get by taking less money. And the finances of the league and free agency change. A lot of different things can happen depending on just what a player values as they enter the open market.
- [31:00]
Sabrina Merchant
I do think it's worth pointing out for Atlanta. They have so much cap space, they have upwards of 600,000 coming into this offseason and they only need to sign three players. So yes, the overall point of taking less money to go where you want is true, but for Atlanta, just get all your money because they have it like the dream can afford to overpay for free agents this offseason.
- [31:18]
Ben Pickman
Well, why don't we move from WNBA point guards to college level point guards? We'll throw it out to the West Coast a little bit to a player that we've been watching for a few years, but apparently not talking about enough. In a recent article that Sabrina did, someone asked about Charlize Ledger Walker from Washington State and why isn't she being talked about or written about more? Sabrina, you wrote about her, I believe, but maybe you can chat a little bit about her. I wrote a piece on her a few years ago. She's a fantastic story. But why don't you tell people who haven't watched her what impresses you most about Charlize this season?
- [31:53]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so I actually brought her up as a mock draft candidate for I don't believe it was the Atlanta Dream just because I think they'd be better suited getting a veteran point guard. But they are among the teams in the draft that needs a point guard, and Charlize is one of the better ones in the country. I think the reason her name doesn't come up a lot is because, well, it's, you know, it's multifold. One, I have never been to Pullman Washington. I don't exactly know where it is. I think it's closer to Idaho than Oregon even, I'm not entirely sure. But geographically, fact check, that's true. Geographically, not a region that we assign a lot of importance to. Just that, that little corner of the Pacific Northwest. So I think that's part of it. Just playing, you know, in a market that isn't as much of a draw as some of the Midwest or coastal cities that we end up talking about. I also think the fact that Washington State really hasn't been much of a player in the PAC12 up until last year when they made that surprise run to win the tournament championship. You know, we talk about the Oregons and the Stanfords and the Arizonas, the teams like the Pac 12 has had, I think, six or four or five different teams make the Final Four over the last decade, and Washington State is just not one of them. So when you think about the depth of that conference, it's just easier to Focus your energy on the other teams that have have been playing longer and at bigger stages nationally. But as far as Charlize, I mean, she's just a really good pro style point guard. Like she runs the pick and roll really well. Physical, she's bigger than you might expect for someone as a lead guard. She shoots well from a distance. I mean, she's already had triple double this season. I know she had an off night against Washington that some people have pointed out in terms of my preference for Washington State over Washington in the Power Rangers rankings thus far this season. But I think she's the kind of guard who's going to excel at the next level. And that doesn't mean that she's worth papering over now because I think Washington State is also a really good team to watch as we head into PAC12 play here. But yeah, I think just it's the little things. It's hard to pay attention to a team that plays in a corner of Washington when UConn and Tennessee and Iowa exist.
- [33:57]
Ben Pickman
I think part of that too, that is as we talk about this conference and its last year of existence as we know it, so much of it is that the PAC 12 networks never got that sort of national TV deal that other conferences did. Anyone can watch South Carolina play if you get ESPN and the SEC network, that is not a team that is difficult to watch Iowa with the Big Ten Network and Fox and ESPN has a lot of games on those Networks, but the PAC 12 was never able to secure a national distribution for its games. And so those teams outside of ucla, usc, Oregon, and these marquee matchups weren't on. They just weren't available to a national audience. And so I think that's probably a big part of it. But in terms of Charlie's, I I'll tweet out the story, I guess, whenever this podcast comes out on Friday. But one of my favorite things I learned about her is so when she came to Washington State, she was there with her older sister Crystal, who had transferred in. And when she was 12 years old, she was playing with her mom, who was a part of New Zealand's first two Olympic teams, actually in the top women's basketball league in New Zealand. And she was just sort of sitting on the bench and her mom and her older sister were playing in this league together in a game. And it was really close. And she kept bugging her mom to like put her into the game. And she's 12 years old and her mom's like, charlize, get out of Here, and her mom puts her in and she hits two threes in a row, and her mom immediately pulls her out and puts her back on the bench and is like, don't tell anyone you played. And later that year, the league installed a rule that you had to be 15 years old to play in the league. And it is loosely known in New Zealand as the Charlize Ledger Walker role because of her. And so if that is not enough of a reason for people to go out and sort of try to find a way to watch her play, she still is a great shooter. But you talk to Pac 12 coaches and you know, they've schemed against her for seasons now, and without fail, I would say she is one of the top few guards in the conference. When you ask coaches like, who do you not want to see, it's her, because they just, she's really, really strong. She's really good ball handler. She can find the basket, she can find her shot. And I think people just have a really hard time stopping her. And coaches consistently are like, washington State is a pain because of her. So she's well worth the price of admission for Washington State.
- [36:17]
Unnamed Speaker
Can I just add to that, like, as a PSA for all readers and listeners, like, you know, be kind, especially in mock draft comments about why is a player being omitted or why was this player slotted at number six versus number or I saw them in another site's mock draft, but I didn't see them in yours. Like, I think if there's one thing, you know, that we all learn throughout the draft process as it heats up, you know, in February, March and April, a lot of these GMs have very different perspectives. They approach evaluating prospects very differently. They have, you know, different methods. Whether that is some valuing overseas, some look at data more. Some, like Lynn Dunn we had on the podcast, she talked a lot about practice and how much weight she puts into practice and not into games themselves. Like, they all have different perspectives. There are only 12 teams. Very often a team picks two or sometimes three times in a draft. It's very hard to predict. So just keep that in mind when you see someone like Charlize Ledger Walker in the athletics mock draft, but you don't see her in someone else's. I think that is something. There's a little bit of holiday cheer I think we can bring into the new year. And speaking of as this new year comes to an end, you know, I guess Chantel for you first, as we round out this episode, just what do you look back on in 2023 as just the biggest story in women's basketball as a whole.
- [37:33]
Ben Pickman
Oh, man. I think we're going to look back at 2023 as sort of the year the sport exploded in a way. It was in my time covering sports, I would say, and following women's basketball. It was probably the first year during the tournament where people that don't know anything about women's basketball. I think you guys probably fall into this category too, where, like, you have friends that know the. Is what you do for a living but don't know anything about women's basketball. Were asking me about South Carolina, and they were asking me about, of course, Caitlin Clark, and they were asking me about other teams. And even, you know, when juju Watkins signed with usc, people were like, oh, well, that makes sense, because USC is great, right? And I was like, no, actually, USC is not great. And so just sort of people paying attention to programs and teams and the history and players in a way that. That I don't think we've seen in women's basketball before. So more so than you know. And I think that was obviously topped off by this sort of incredible run by lsu raising its game through the postseason. And same can be said about a lot of other teams. So, yeah, I think we'll look back at this year as sort of the year the sport exploded in a way. What about you, Sabrina?
- [38:45]
Sabrina Merchant
So this is probably biased by where I spent a lot of my year in 2023, but I'm going to look at this year as when Asia Wilson just established herself as the best player in the world and probably a generational talent who we're going to be talking about for just long after she's put the basketball down. I've always sort of been in the camp that Brianna Stewart's the best player I've seen, and when you put her in a playoff series, she's just going to win. It's going to happen. And to see that not happen this year and her like, just be bested by Asia Wilson pretty convincingly, in my opinion, was really impressive and makes me realize that we're going to talk about Asia Wilson the same way we've been talking about all of these other Yukon greats. And I don't know, it's very, very fun to witness live and be able to tell part of that story.
- [39:29]
Unnamed Speaker
And I would say Asia Wilson, I think Stewie fits this bill as well. And the WNBA Finals is what you were saying. Chantelle is just getting the casual texts from peers at games, watching games. I certainly Got a ton of texts. I'm sure you all did as well. I would also throw another mention. I'd be remiss if we didn't mention Brittney Griners come back to the WNBA as another really story in women's basketball last year. She did come home, you know, in December of 2022. So technically, you know, we're cheating the return a little bit as we wrap up look at 2023. But her returning to the court was pretty remarkable considering all that she went through in the 10 months preceding that. You know, as you look back again, just personally, as you reflected on the year, just Chantel again, I guess to you to start, just what were your favorite moments as a reporter over the last last year?
- [40:15]
Ben Pickman
Well, Sabrina and Ben are going to roll their eyes at this, probably because I am constantly on slack being like, I love having teammates. This is so much fun. You know, I did. I did a lot of this reporting sort of solo full time here for quite a while before Ben and Sabrina joined. And so it's just been so fun to have the three of us. And I will never get tired of saying that because even just thinking back to, like, I think the Final Four, it was like this moment when we were sitting in that basement, like, trying to record a podcast together. And I was like, man, this is kind of a shit show. But it's also so much more fun when you have other people with you that can kind of laugh about the absurdity of it all. And even just sort of, you know, the stuff that our readers probably don't see where I'm texting Sabrina a question like, hey, you know, this is what I'm thinking about North Carolina. What do you think? And we can sort of go back and forth about that. Or I'm texting Ben, like, hey, I'm thinking about this story. What do you, like, do you think this is really the angle here? And so sort of that ability to just be sounding boards for one another. I've been on the road a lot this fall and this winter, and there have been a lot of cool moments within that. But I think in terms of, like, this year as a reporter, it'll very much stand out to me as, like, the year we really became a team, which feels really special.
- [41:28]
Unnamed Speaker
Sabrina, the pressure is on you right now.
- [41:31]
Sabrina Merchant
I honestly think back to that little podcast recording we did in the bowels of American Airlines center in Dallas during the Final Four because it really just felt like a moment to be there with Iowa and South Carolina. That game just felt bigger than a lot of things that I've ever covered. And I've covered games that probably have been witnessed by more people in terms of totality on television. But just the conversation around it that it led into IOLSU and everything that happened afterwards, and it just felt very big and it was really fun to be a part of. And, I mean, I think about going, like, from that little corner with the dogs and, you know, the people rolling through, like, kitchen equipment and then like, just walking over to, like, the media room and passing Emmett Smith on the way because he had to be there to watch this Iowa LSU game because it was that big of a deal that Emmett Smith, you know, Dallas royalty shows up to watch this game. It was just very cool to be that building, like, for that weekend and everything that we were able to do to be a part of it like that. It's a career highlight at this point, and I Hope that the 2024 Final Four just builds on it.
- [42:38]
Unnamed Speaker
I would just echo what Chantal and Sabrina said about working with you guys as colleagues and friends, and certainly that taping was memorable. I would also throw out some other honorable mentions in terms of games. The Caitlin Clark Final Elite Eight game against Louisville to send Iowa to the Final Four, the 411210 triple double, and just the scene around that. I think it was one of the most amazing and breathtaking performances I've ever seen in person from a star player. And obviously set the stage so much for the Iowa, South Carolina game and eventually Iowa, LSU in the final. And then I would also say just Barclays center in games three and four. And just taking in that environment and seeing a truly packed stadium that, you know, Barclays sold out, or was, I think, close to sold out, the upper bowl of the arena, it was as loud as it's been for a Liberty game this year. Game three and Game four. And obviously what the Aces were able to do in Game four just to steal Game four and win it in the fashion that they did with the roster that they did and send a. What was a raucous crowd and, you know, Barclays center for those who don't know, Nets games, sometimes the energy in there, waivers, depending on who is in attendance. Oftentimes it is a cheaper ticket than msg, so it's a little easier to get in. But all those people watching the Liberty and the Aces really wanted to be there and the energy was so palpable, and it really was just an amazing night, an amazing swing of emotions in a stadium, and that was definitely one for me. That was so memorable and will be for a very, very long time.
- [44:06]
Ben Pickman
I hope that the listeners and the readers know this is all very genuine, how much we really do enjoy our jobs. And I think all of us do take it pretty seriously that we do feel like this is like a really important time in women's basketball. And it feels important and necessary for people to be chronicling these people and these athletes who haven't been covered enough in the past. And we do our best to cover everyone as well as we can. And obviously it's still a small but mighty team. We appreciate your feedback. As Ben said, the keeping it relatively kind. But your feedback and your thoughts are really helpful and can obviously help guide us in how we do our jobs as well.
- [44:45]
Unnamed Speaker
I guess if we wrap one more just in your own lives, something best thing you read, watched, listened to. What are you doing now in between Christmas and New Year's? Any kind of reflections, recommendations for the listeners out there? Chantel, I know you have a newborn, so you're probably reading books for toddlers, but what appeals to you?
- [45:05]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, they're not a newborn anymore. Now it's the phase of learning how many things aren't actually childproofed in our house. That is a daily learning. So I don't think there's a book that tells you all of the things that will hurt a child who has no self preservation trait at all. I'm currently watching welcome to Wrexham Season two. I don't know if that just came out or if it's been out for a while and I just.
- [45:28]
Sabrina Merchant
It's been during the fall. You're good, Shanto.
- [45:29]
Ben Pickman
Okay, good. I was gonna say my child is not super young anymore, but I'm definitely late on a lot. And then I actually just picked up. I try to read it every few years, but Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird, it's a book about like writing and life. I try to read that every so often. So I just started reading that again. Sabrina, what about you?
- [45:48]
Sabrina Merchant
One of my favorite women's basketball things that I read this year, in addition to obviously everything that we do at the Athletic, was a story by Katie Barnes about Aaliyah Gayles, who was shot multiple times at a party in Las Vegas before she was supposed to start her freshman year at usc. And just her recovery from that and being able to actually play basketball for the Trojans this year, just a really, really great story. And then my favorite book that I read this year was Tomorrow, Tomorrow and Tomorrow, just about friendship and video games. And it was really Lovely and beautiful.
- [46:19]
Unnamed Speaker
That sounds great. I personally am puzzling right now. This is the one time during the year where I commit to trying to do a jigsaw puzzle. So I am working through a 1500 piece puzzle and I look forward to getting back to it once we finish off this recording. I mean you mentioned so many great things. I would say I read some of the highlights in the non sports and like really light category. I read Jason Gay has a great book of the Lawsuit Journal out. I wouldn't do that if, if I were me. And it's just a series of really fun, light essays. And it was some really good like beach reading over the summer that sticks out as just like a positive, non weighty read that I flew through in like a day or two. And I look back on and I just think he's a whimsical writer. So that was, that was one highlight. I'll take any TV show recommendations. I will. Also I'm trying to get into fiction. So that is one of my New Year's resolutions to try and read fiction. I really only read nonfiction and magazine articles. So readers, I will take any suggestions there or if you guys have them on the show, text me after. I will gladly take it. But I think that kind of wraps up what we have on the docket for this show. I mean, I think Chantel said it really nicely. Like we appreciate all of you for reading and listening and following along throughout this year and in the years before that. We have what will be another really exciting start to the year with a number of great stories that I know that we'll just say they're great stories, we'll tease them that way and not tell you what they're on. But we have a number of great things lined up coming out in January and they're surely going to be some, some really important and worthwhile stories, we think, and podcasts too, worth reading and listening to and following along with as the NCAA tournament comes into form and another really exciting WNBA season on the docket. And we'll be sure to bring you, you know, the best work that we can as consistently as we can and try and cover the world of women's basketball like few if any other outlets do. I know that's something that we're all really proud of. So I appreciate you hanging with us on this show and on the website and you know, please follow along@theathletic.com we have a subscription if you it's last few days, a dollar subscription for 12 months. How to get that promo in and we look forward to joining you guys and following along in the New year. So thanks again.
- [48:28]
Sabrina Merchant
And just as a reminder, our podcast will be returning next Friday. We don't have a Tuesday show for the first week of the New year, but after that we'll be back to our twice a week schedule. So thanks again for listening. Thanks to Ben and Chantel. Thank you to Michelob Ultra for sponsoring us. And as Xena loves to say, keep loving, learning, listening. All we're trying to do is grow the game and thank you for being a part of it with us.
- [48:59]
Chantelle Jennings
As.
- [48:59]
Sabrina Merchant
We head into the playoffs.
- [49:01]
Unnamed Speaker
It's safe to assume there will be.
- [49:02]
Chantelle Jennings
A few calls made by the refs.
- [49:04]
Unnamed Speaker
That will be hard to accept.
- [49:05]
Sabrina Merchant
But you know what isn't hard to accept?
- [49:08]
Chantelle Jennings
Discover.
- [49:09]
Unnamed Speaker
Believe it or not, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard that right, 99%. So make a good call for your.
- [49:18]
Chantelle Jennings
Wallet and get Discover based on the.
- [49:20]
Unnamed Speaker
February 2024 Nielsen report. Learn more at discover.com creditcard this podcast.
- [49:25]
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- [50:18]
Sabrina Merchant
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- [50:26]
Chantelle Jennings
Hey guys, we have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
- [50:29]
Ben Pickman
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [50:34]
Chantelle Jennings
We love getting to talk to experts, we love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also also love hearing from you.
- [50:40]
Ben Pickman
But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh.
- [50:44]
Chantelle Jennings
A lot has changed in the last seven years and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older with us.
- [50:49]
Ben Pickman
So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
- [50:57]
Chantelle Jennings
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all about aging together better and also being.
- [51:02]
Unnamed Speaker
Able to laugh about getting older.
- [51:04]
Ben Pickman
We hope you'll join us. Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen Holderness. New episodes every Tuesday.
- [51:11]
Sabrina Merchant
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.