← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:00]
Sponsor Voice
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- [01:39]
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- [02:01]
Zena Keda
There to watch them.
- [02:02]
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- [03:09]
Zena Keda
Love.
- [03:10]
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- [05:14]
Zena Keda
For the athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by Michelob Ultra.
- [05:24]
Ben Pickman
Oh.
- [05:34]
Zena Keda
Welcome back to another episode of the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Shout out to our sponsor, of course, Michelob Ultra. Today's conversation is going to focus on something that is a passion of mine. Not just because it's super interesting, but also because it's how I've gotten my coins. For the entirety of my career, I have worked in sports business, and that is what I'm talking about, the business side of sports. I've seen the magnitude that, you know, of a financial impact that sports can have, not only on, you know, a franchise, a community, a city, entire countries really just driving capitalism. And that's talking tickets bought, jerseys worn, concessions consumed, parking lots packed, bars overflowing, commercials running. I could get all way out of breath thinking about all the ways that sports creates business. But that's not all of it, right? One sporting event can generate millions of dollars through various channels, billions even, if you really think about those world, world level sporting events. But it's not just events. One athlete can actually do the same thing. Ben Pickman, national writer for the Athletic on women's national basketball, is joining me today and we're going to talk about a professional women's basketball player showing that kind of impact for her team. City. But first, we wouldn't be doing our job if we didn't quickly touch on Tuesday and Wednesday night's playoff game. So let's get into it. What up, Ben?
- [07:05]
Ben Pickman
I'm doing well, Zena. That was a great intro. Park parking lots packed. Well done on the alliteration.
- [07:09]
Zena Keda
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Parking lots packed, concessions consumed. You see that? Mm, sounds good. Rolls off the tongue. All right. Well, speaking of rolling, the Liberty are rolling into semifinals. They secured themselves a spot this Sunday after beating the mystics 90 to 85. It was a thriller. I actually picked the Mystics to win that game, and there was a legitimate chance that they could have actually done it. They kept going back and forth with the lead. They were able to tie it up several times. And considering the way that Natasha Cloud showed up, both defensively keeping Sabrina ionescu to just 11 points after the 29 point monstrous game that she had and then notching 33 points herself, I mean, she played locked in. She added nine assists, four steals. And I don't think without her that the Mystics would have even been in that game. They made a lot of questionable decisions, especially at the late end. I'm wondering, Ben, looking at that game, looking how close it was, how do you feel about the fact that Washington, despite not playing particularly well, especially in the late game part, was able to stay in the game with New York on their home court? Does that concern you? As they prepare to play in the semifinals.
- [08:24]
Ben Pickman
I mean, it's a good question. And I first want to say I appreciate you leading with Natasha Cloud, because I think she deserves a ton of credit. She talked her talk before, before game two, and, and she certainly backed it up. She was the best player in the game, and, you know, she was the reason why game two was even as close as it was. So credit to her, to your question. And if it concerns me, I mean, I think the concern is that New York's offense again in the second half got a little bit stagnant, especially in the third quarter and the start of the fourth quarter. You know, they struggle to create a rhythm. There was a lot of one on one on the offensive end. You know, Courtney Vandersloot didn't play particularly well. Now, Washington is a tough matchup, and New York has acknowledged that both in the regular season and during the playoffs, that their physicality, especially from the guard position, can really be disruptive. Sandy Brandello afterwards, after game two, said that Washington was much more like a three or a four seed. And we're kind of glad to have played them because we learned a lot from it than a traditional, say, seven seed. The thing that I still think, you know, was revealed during Game 2, and it speaks to the luxury that the Liberty really have is they just have so many options that in game two, you know, especially down the stretch in the second half, in essence, the Liberty broke the glass for break in case of emergency. And we saw a lot of points. Stewie. Stewie was bringing the ball up the court, orchestrating offense, running it, initiating it. You know, Vanderstoot and UNESCO, they were mostly distractions playing off ball. Sloot told me afterwards that it's just kind of a pressure release when you have Stewie to create and play point guard. And that's just such a luxury to have a player like that. And so, yeah, you know, obviously not great that New York let a 11 point first half lead go. This was something we saw in the beginning of the season a number of times. Some of their home losses were a result of some second half struggles, but I think the team is much improved from that point. I mean, we see Jonquil Jones right now. She's playing really, really well. I think they're 13 and 0 this season when she gets a double double. So big picture, I'm not that concerned about the game two second half performance. And I think if anything, you just saw that New York can grind out a win when its guards are not playing well. And that's a testament to the roster and the players on it.
- [10:33]
Zena Keda
I think you make a really great point that Sandy Bardello said about the fact that Washington isn't your average seventh seed. You are looking at almost a semifinals type of game by playing against the Washington Mystics. That has shown you they can beat you and they can play really well against. So if anything, I am grateful for the entertainment in the first round before we go into the second, the second game of Tuesday night. Atlanta Dream, Dallas Wings. This game pretty much ended the way most fans expected it to. Uh, the Wings blew the dream out 10174 and they're on the way to the semifinals. They've got a face off against the reigning champs, Las Vegas Aces. We'll talk about that in a second. But despite keeping it close in the first quarter, the second quarter was the Dream's complete undoing. They were outscored 10 to 29, and I don't think they ever really came back from that. The Wings, I mean, they, they wiped the Dream all over the court in so many different ways. They outscored them in the paint, points off, turnovers, fast break points, offensive putbacks. But for me, the most glaring and obvious stat was the beat down on the boards. Mostly because everyone knows the Wings do that, right? That's their, that's their bread and butter. They won that battle, 41 boards to 28. That wing size inside has always been their biggest strength, and that was on full display in the quarterfinals. And also throughout the regular season, the Wings have beaten the Aces. They won by two on July 7th. It's one of the only three losses that the Aces have had this year. So let's put that also in perspective. But they've also lost to the Aces by 20 this season. But in that win, the Aces had Candace Parker, who is now out with a foot injury, who is now out and diminishes that size that Aces can kind of combat the Dallas swing size with. What are you anticipating the Aces will do to minimize the impact of Dallas size inside?
- [12:33]
Ben Pickman
I don't really think that the Aces are afraid of Dallas's size. Like, I don't really think the Aces are afraid of anything or anyone. And they just have a ton of fun and they do their own thing, right? So the fact that, you know, you have Tierra McCowan and Kalani Brown and Natasha Howard, Al Aquir play great satu obviously, like, I don't think they're intimidated first and foremost, which I think is important just as a setting the ground foundation here. So what I think is going to happen, that I'm super interested is I still bet that Kia Stokes and Asia Wilson in particular, like, I think they're going to guard Dallas's wings one on one. And I think where we're going to see some of the help is, and I think this is one of the pivot points in the whole series is how do you know Chelsea Gray or Kelsey Plum or Jackie Young kind of help off Dallas's point guards. I think that's really the matchup to watch because, you know, Dallas is one of the best starting lineups, one of the best rosters in the league. But something that Latricia Tramble's still kind of figuring out is her point guard rotation, right? Odyssey Sims, Crystal Dangerfield and Veronica Burton. You know, Dangerfield, she's just a 29 three point shooter this year. She was their starter for most of the year, playing almost 30 minutes a game. But her minute total has been cut in that first round series against the Dream. She went down from 28 in the regular season to just 16 and 18. Sims, she's just a 13, three point shooter in the regular season. Small volume, half an attempt per game, but nevertheless. And Burton's just around 32 again on small volume. And so what I think is going to happen is, you know, if you have a Vegas guard who is defending one of those Dallas guards, you know, I would expect them, if they're on the same side of the floor with McCown in single coverage to help down on McCown or on Satu in the post. If they're not, and you know, the ball's on the other side of the court, I would expect it to be pretty one on one. You know, I was talking to someone around the league and they mentioned to me that obviously foul trouble, you know, is something we've talked a lot about with the Aces front court, that they don't have a ton of depth. And so if, like Asia, for instance, gets in foul trouble, then Las Vegas is certainly stretched and that's a problem. But this person also made the point that, you know, if Chelsea Gray gets in valid trouble, that could be super huge. Because one of the ways that Las Vegas kind of has such a significant leg up is that their depth on the wing is so much better, say, than the Wings, no pun intended there. And so if Chelsea or Kelsey Plum or Jackie Young has to sit down with foul trouble, then suddenly that leveling occurs between Dangerfield and Odyssey Sims and Veronica Burton and whoever else is in the Aces lineup. And it becomes a little bit more level. So, you know, foul trouble, frankly, is going to be pretty key in this series. But I think you can make the case for, you know, if Vegas can stay out of foul trouble. I think they should be fine. I'll put it that way.
- [15:08]
Zena Keda
That's fair. As you're talking about the Aces Wings helping off and helping down if they're on the weak side of the court, I'm also thinking about that rebounding aspect, right. Boxing out a Tierra McCowan when the ball goes up, knowing that three balls are going to go up and those bodies are going to be the hardest to move inside, there's going to be a little bit of gang rebounding going on probably for the Aces, absolutely.
- [15:31]
Ben Pickman
And I think, like, you know, just like how Washington was a tough matchup for the Liberty, and I think the Liberty are happy to have played Washington and gotten through them. Like, you know, I certainly think Dallas is going to give Las Vegas a series and you might come out of the series if you're a player on the Aces front court and you'll really feel the Dallas Wings presence even if you've advanced. And I think Dallas will make them work. Even if, even if I do think in the end, Las Vegas probably will emerge to the finals.
- [15:55]
Zena Keda
Speaking about making it a series and making you feel them, I remember seeing Cheney Ogwemike on WNBA Countdown talking about playing the Connecticut sun and choosing which one would you want over the Lynx or the sun and saying that playing the Connecticut sun is like a boxing match. And I do feel like the Winx can give you that same sort of feeling as well, especially inside. But speaking of the sun, the Lynx had to go up against them in Target Center. They forced a Game 3 in the first round, but ended up on the losing end of that, losing 90 to 75 against the Suns power duo, Alyssa Damas and Duana Bonner, 2825 respectively. Killing it. Killing it. Nafisa Collier did everything she could to get that win 31 points herself, but ultimately was just out, beaten, outsped. I mean, they were so fast and so physical with them to open the top of the game. There was a secret sauce for Connecticut, though. While, you know, Bonner and Thomas were doing what we expect them to do, there's been a little hero on the Connecticut side in the name of Ty Harris and Ty Harris, 4 of 6 from 3 the other night, 711 from the floor, dropping in 18 points. For perspective, Ty Harris has averaged 5.8 points in the regular season in 16 minutes all right. Talk about small volume. It's helpful, but it's not what she's been doing in these playoffs. And so she has come up really, really big. The sun will have their hands full trying to slow the offensive production of the Liberty. We know that, like Sloot said, it's a luxury when you can take the night off a little bit and let Stewie do her thing. But Bonner said in her post game interview on Tuesday night that they had to challenge some players to step up and play after losing game two. What do you think Ben will help generate more offense and more performances like what Ty Harris had for Connecticut and their entire surrounding cast, really against the Liberty?
- [17:59]
Ben Pickman
I mean, AT and dejuana Bonner, as you mentioned, they just attract so much attention that, you know, as if they play to the level that they have played this season, you know, in recent weeks. Then I think some of the supporting players on Connecticut should have opportunities to step up and take advantage and make shots in the way that Ty Harris did in the opening series. You know, we're kind of at the point of the series. You mentioned the small sample size with Ty Harris and you cited all of her numbers and she was so important in them advancing. We're at the point where, you know, it's three out of five, right? Like if she has one big game, if Natisha Heideman has one big game and Tiff Hayes has one big game and Dewana and and at, they play as well as they have, that could be good enough. Right? And so you kind of look at the X factor in the series and it really does come down to, in my opinion, those Connecticut sun guards and what are you getting? And throwback Allen in that mix as well, just as a three point shooter. If those players step up, if they're able to to simply make shots and generate offense, especially, you know, I think Connecticut has a puncher's chance. Like, they don't have the same roster talent as New York does. They're like, I don't think that's really a debate. And 80 is, she's like New York, she's gonna get her stats, she's gonna get her point, she's gonna get her assist, she's gonna get her rebounds. I don't think New York is rattled by playing her. You have someone like JJ who's gone up against her in practice for years. Stewie, obviously, you know, know she can play with anyone. Best player in the world, second best player in the world, whatever. But I think a lot of it will just come down to how do Connecticut's guards perform and if. Can they make enough shots. Dijonay Carrington as well. Can they make enough shots to keep Connecticut in games? My guess is they'll probably be able to do it a little bit here and there. I don't know if they're going to be able to do it to advance and win three of the five games.
- [19:42]
Zena Keda
Okay. Look at you making predictions already. Well, the next set of games is on Sunday. The sun take on the Liberty first and then Aces against the Wings. It'll be on ESPN, ESPN2, respectively, so make sure to tune in. All right, now it's time to talk business. Business of the wnba, that is. I want to say thank you, Ben, that you had a really insightful article that you wrote about the Liberty right before playoffs about the impact of Briana Stewart, who we will reference as Stewie often on the New York Liberties win, their win record, their ticket sales and their TV ratings. Before we dive into that, first and foremost, you've been around the team all season. You've been in the arena. You live in New York. What have you seen and felt be impacted by Stewie's arrival to the New York Liberty?
- [20:34]
Ben Pickman
I mean, the arena just has a ton of energy and it's juiced up and crowds are great. They're super engaged. I think, you know, the Liberty's crowd in general is a pretty inclusive environment where they've drawn a lot of fans in and I think for the first time who come back for the second and third time, you know, around certainly Brooklyn, you know, where, where I'm live close to the arena. So I know a lot of players live close to the arena. Like, I remember anecdotally, just myself. Like, one Saturday morning, I was just biking kind of past the. The back half of the arena. I stopped on a corner and I saw Benija Laney and Kayla Thornton walk by. And some fans, you know, just called out to them, like, go, Liberty. Like, on a. On a sleepy Saturday morning during the summer, Jonathan Cole, the gm, he kind of told me a story pretty similar of being in a coffee shop. I think he was with Sloot nearby the arena. And Benija Laney walks in again, and a fan, you know, comes in and sees Benijah and, like, runs back to her somewhere, her car, her home. I forget what he was saying and brings back a jersey for her to sign. Like, wow, you know, little things like that. Those are just anecdotes. But I certainly think, like, people are becoming increasingly aware, present, and, you know, interested in the team, especially as they've been successful. You know, we mentioned this story is a lot about Stewie, but certainly in this discussion, we'd be remiss if we didn't mention JJ and Courtney Vandersloot as well. It's kind of the three. The trio coming together has led to so much more popularity, and I think the Liberty, frankly, and we'll talk a lot more about this over the next couple minutes, have done a really good job tapping into the fan base, too, 1,000%.
- [22:06]
Zena Keda
When you said the Jersey story, you couldn't see me, but I was fist pumping. Like, that's awesome. That is really cool. And you can see just how a city just really needs that. Right. When you think about how New York sports are doing right now. Yeah, shout out to the Liberty for holding the fort down and getting people excited about supporting them and wanting to be involved in it. Because that's what I think right now. The WNBA is doing so well. It's cool to support the W. Right? And I want to say rest in peace and shout out to Kobe for the orange hoodie. Because ever since the orange hoodie till now, you're seeing more and more people make it a fact and a known thing. Like, yeah, I support the W and I'm proud of it and I'm excited for it. Let's keep moving because we got a lot to talk about. What I loved most about this is that you called it the Stewie Effect. And I want to get nerdy about this a little quickly. Just really quickly. So the Stewie effect, you could insert any athlete, the blank effect, referencing the psychological term. The halo effect, I'm assuming.
- [23:09]
Ben Pickman
Yep.
- [23:10]
Zena Keda
And for those of you that don't know what the halo effect is, it's a psychological phenomenon that occurs when a person's overall impression of an individual or a concept influences their judgment of that individual or concept's specific traits and then has them act accordingly. And what I When I first heard about the Stewie Effect, the first thing that came to mind is what may have jumped in the minds of many of you seeing it. The Jordan Effect. And this term was referenced in the 90s in connection to Michael Jordan. When Fortune magazine in 1998 was trying to describe how much people's impression and influence with Michael Jordan influenced not just sports, but literally the US Economy. This is crazy. They dubbed it the Jordan Effect. And they estimated that in the year 1998 alone, Michael Jordan had a $10 billion impact on the US economy through numerous economic activities. This is boosting NBA television ratings which inevitably increase cable and broadcasting rights fees, which inevitably increased money shared with the teams and ultimately paid out in player salaries. He drove up ticket sales not only for the team he was playing for, but also for the teams whenever they played against his team. He generated sales of merchandise. Have you heard of Jordan's apparel, other products? And then there's also the fact that, yeah, he contributed to film, heard of Space Jam, video games and other forms of entertainment. Now, while Stewie's impact isn't in the billions yet, yet the channels of economic activities she's impacted are very similar to what Jordan did. But in New York. Talk a little bit as you did the research and what you found out. What types of changes has this franchise seen since she and her other superstars, Jon Quell Jones and Courtney Vandersloot joined?
- [25:05]
Ben Pickman
Well, simply put, they've joined. The team has done better and almost everything has gone up there. Yeah, exactly. So 100% growth in overall ticket sales this year with a plus 200% lift in season ticket memberships entering the season. That's one. Home attendance is up more than 2500 people on average per game through the beginning of September. Their TV ratings, TV ratings were up almost 60% year over year. Social media, the team says 600 growth in overall engagement across its various platforms. E Commerce, the. Their retail. E commerce sales have more than doubled, the team says. And they also. And Xena, you know a lot about this too. 10 additional partners this year who hadn't been with the team before. So, you know, those are just some of the numbers and some of that. A lot of that you can probably attribute to Stewie. A lot of that you can attribute to the three of them coming together. The winning that has followed and just the overall interest in the team, in its players have followed. And so, yeah, things are up, up and up. I could cite some more numbers, but you would notice a trend very quickly.
- [26:11]
Zena Keda
Wow. I mean, that's amazing. And as you mentioned, things I know a lot about partnerships. I've worked in partnerships in the NFL, I've worked in partnerships in the NBA, and I now do partnerships here at the Athletic as well. And what people don't realize is that the things that aren't directly tied to consumerism, AKA like social media. Right. Just engaging with social media doesn't automatically create dollars. But if a brand sees a 600% growth in engagement, yeah, they're going to be like, let me put my stuff on that platform. Let me partner. Spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to partner with particular platforms that I think will help sell my products when consumers are in market. So it definitely does impact the money, even in the things that you don't think about being directly tied. Something that's also interesting is what this money can do for a team. And I know you've written about this, about how the influx of money has helped the Liberty invest in their team even more.
- [27:13]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, one of the other forms of investment, and there's a lot of different kinds of investment in the wnba, but the Liberty also, they have eight now, full time performance staff, medical staff, people who will work with the franchise year round. So when we talk about, you know, overall investment in a franchise, in its players, like that is a huge form of investment that not only takes, you know, a commitment during the season, it takes a commitment to financially pay those people, frankly, full salaries year round. And it takes, you know, paying them competitive wages. With teams in the nwsl, they have people who they hired from the end, the NBA from top colleges. Right. So, you know, you have to pay those people competitive salaries and make them want to be there. Not just because they, you know, some of them certainly want to support the league and the athletes and the sport, but, you know, every. It's important for everyone to have some kind of level of financial stability and sustainability. So you got to pay them competitive wages. And the Liberty, you're doing that. So that is just another form of investment that we've seen in recent years, specifically this year as well.
- [28:13]
Zena Keda
It's really just putting respect on everything, right? Respect on people's careers, people's decision to commit and help these franchises be the best that they can be. Now, I gave that historical context with Jordan, but of course, this is a women's basketball podcast, so don't come for me, y'all. Don't come for me. But I do wanna ask you if there are other women's basketball players that come to mind that you would put in this same category of having this level of impact on their franchise, especially particularly this quickly after joining. Cheryl Swoopes comes to mind for me because she was the first signee of the WNBA, so immediate impact and a few other UConn Huskies. But I'm just curious, you know, is there anyone else that you would put in this same category?
- [28:57]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't have full data on it in the same way I have with the Liberty, but I would say kind of educationally and anecdotally, like the two that come to mind right now, at least in the present day, are Asia Wilson, obviously, who is a Nike athlete. Athlete. You know, she has this Cosmic Unity shoe that I know is super popular. Over the last weekend, Nike had this big event in in New York City, the their World Basketball Festival or the Global Basketball Festival and on display in cases next to their KDS and LeBron's and Kobe shoes that they're releasing in the holiday season. Like they were promoting the Cosmic Unity shoe and that's really the shoe that Asia wears and touts and you know, helps with the creative vision of. And so, you know, that is one example. And I know from talking to some Aces folks as well, like they've seen a boost in recent years too, in their season ticket sales. We've certainly seen them move into a new facility. There's certainly a renewed interest around town that again, not only because of her, but she is a big part of that. The other person who I would say to immediately kind of, kind of comes to mind is just Aaliyah Boston and what she's meant for the Indiana Fever because I think one of the things there and you know, you and Sabrina kind of talked about this in the episode last week that you did on South Carolina, but you know, because of her presence, the Fever have been able to tap into some new fan bases and create some new partnerships very directly. Like, you didn't see the Indiana Fever having a hat with a South Carolina patch on the side of it last year. That's because they recognize that their best player has such a fan base and following behind her that it'd be silly not to tap into that. And so, you know, that is one small example to looping the South Carolina fans that I'm sure they're getting viewership, engagement, followers, ticket sales, merchandise sales from, you know, the fans from the college level. And look, I do think frankly, a lot of WNBA teams can probably do a better job of tapping into their college fan bases. I know you guys talked a lot about that last week, but I think sometimes there is such a big disconnect between the college supporters and the WNBA supporters that I think there's missed opportunities that are that are left to go to the wayside. But I think Indiana and what they're doing with Aaliyah, especially in this first year, is another example of just, you know, taking advantage of the profile and using the profile and promoting the player of their athletes in a way that, you know, it's just good for business. Like simply put.
- [31:12]
Zena Keda
Oh, for sure. The two I that came to mind for me also, I mean outside of Sheryl Swoopes as well is like Suburg in Seattle for sure. And I actually, I wish I would have been around to see what Diana Taurasi joining Phoenix, what that impact had. But knowing that they had that collegiate career that was so visible and so, so successful going right into the pros, I'm sure that they had quite a impact too. But yes, shout out to the South Carolina girlies, Don Staley, Nothing but good things. Nothing but good things. An interesting stat that you mentioned in the article on the Stewie effect that should come to no surprise to anyone, but is interesting to put into actual figures, is that according to a recent Wasserman study, more than 80% of a woman athlete's average compensation comes from endorsement income. Not surprising compared to just less than 40% for male athletes. So male athletes making most of their money for their main job, whereas women athletes making most of their money from their side jobs. And I think that's something that also helps with generating endorsement interest. Is women winning? Right. We've seen the CarMax commercials. You think Candace Parker and Sue Bird would have been in those commercials if they hadn't been able to flex rings on Steph Curry? Probably not. This isn't the NFL where the likes of a Baker Mayfield or a Tim Tebow can ride the coattails of their collegiate success into endorsements that continue into their pro careers, even if their pro careers aren't phenomenal. You know, no shade to them. I like them both. But let's just be real. I'm curious. How do you think that a person like Stewie, and this also could be an Asia Wilson as well. But how do you think they balance that competitive desire to win for winning's sake as a competitor and just knowing that that's what they want to do versus winning and the pressure to win, knowing that there is a lot of good and impact that can come from winning, including that investment in better facilities and performance, trainers or endorsements or, you know, whatever it is. So it's not only for their career, but their livelihood that these. That winning can also impact.
- [33:34]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a big impact. And where I really see it too, is from a team building perspective. Right. And it goes along the lines of winning that for a lot of these athletes in the wnba, just specifically, you know, someone like Stewie, she took less money to sign with the Liberty than a max contract, than a supermax contract. And, you know, I asked her about this explicitly and we didn't get into the nitty gritty of the numbers, but we did talk about this concept that, you know, because she took less, they were able to sign other players or they're able to keep other players longer term. And if you're able to find, you know, trade for jj, sign Vander Sloot, extend Benija Laney, extend Kayla Thornton, keep the nucleus together. Yeah, win more games, win more championships. You know, everybody benefits. Both the city, both the teams, both the individuals. And then all the off court stuff involving the brands. And so, you know, the money that she might be losing from just a pure compensation standpoint, the 20 or 30 or $40,000 she might be losing, she might also, and I think likely is or is making that money up by playing in New York, by having that team success, by winning championships. And it's something, you know, we have actually seen around the WNBA in recent years and a number of different examples of some of the biggest stars taking less money to stay with their team. We saw this with Asia Wilson as well, right. That she took less money with her extension to resign and or extend with the Aces. That helps them keep their core together. If they keep their core together, you know, everybody does a little bit better, right? Jackie Young, Kelsey Plum, the whole team is remaining in championship contention and everybody might be losing a little bit of money in salary. And so, you know, you can certainly make the argument how good is it that players have to take less money or feel compelled to, or making this decision to take a little less money in salary. But, you know, there are still other benefits. You know, I compare it and, you know, we shouldn't like, you know, I'm often hesitant and hesitant to just compare things to the NBA and NBA players. But I also think in the wnba, you know, right now there's, it's a lot like NBA of old times where there is still a lot of value from playing in New York. You know, Stewie talked about that, how she took less money. But she's closer to Puma's North American headquarters in Massachusetts. They have a flagship store in New York City. The day after her 45 perform, 45 point performance against the Fever early in the year, she went to like the launch of her collection at the big store in, in Manhattan and tons of Liberty fans were there and like she couldn't do that if she was in another city. And so there's real economic value to, you know, supporting the brand and supporting Puma like that that she can get from being in New York and in Asia the same in Las Ve. So, you know, it is a little bit of. And that's something we saw in the NBA. Of course, when you said, okay, you have to be in New York or LA to really be a star, that's no longer the case. As we obviously know, LeBron has done just fine when he's in Cleveland, but I still think in the W, that's the case. And you mentioned it. The salary discrepancy is part of this, right? WNBA players, the max salary, they're making 230, 240, $250,000. Obviously, you know, good money, not nothing. But, you know, you see some of the NBA contracts being signed for $30 million a year, like, you know, $40 million. It's just a different ballgame right now. And so taking, taking, you know, $30,000 less is very different than taking, you know, $12 million less or $20 million less. Sure. Just because of the difference in the economics.
- [36:57]
Zena Keda
And I love what Stewie said. Also, you mentioned this in the article when you're talking about the benefits. Right. The symbiotic relationship of if I'm taking a little bit less money, that means that you get to stay on this team. We're going to win, and that helps us one be a winning team. But winning means endorsements, which is what we're talking about. Right. And how Stewie mentioned she wants everybody to get a shoe deal. Yes, Stewie, I'm with you, girl. I want everybody to get a shoe deal. I want a shoe deal. But no, but seriously, like, I love that, that that is how she's thinking of the more I can win, the more I can do to help my teammates win, the more we all win throughout the league.
- [37:36]
Ben Pickman
And to that point, but helping everybody else out. And in this study that, you know, Stewie's agency, Wasserman, and the Royal bank of Canada, they did some of this research and pulled it together like women's athletes. Like, simply put, I guess one of the takeaways is women's sports is good for business. Like, I'll say it again, women's sports is good for business.
- [37:53]
Zena Keda
You better say that.
- [37:54]
Ben Pickman
It's a good business proposition. And, you know, they make this point in the study that, you know, while the compensation for a number of women's athletes might be lower than some of their male counterparts in the NBA or the NFL or Major League Baseball, that oftentimes the women's athletes over deliver is the word they use, I think, on their partnerships through brand engagement. I think they cite in this study, too, that women's athletes themselves are two times more engaged with their followers on social media than, you know, male athletes. And Xena, you know this a heck of a lot better than I do. Just about the importance of having an engaged audience and what the potential earning potential could be to not just have 10 million followers, but to have, you know, 2 million followers who X percentage of them are super engaged. And there's a discrepancy there that is important that you know, again, good for business and is another way to make supplement income in addition to salary.
- [38:51]
Zena Keda
Sports Business 101 when it comes to partnerships and particularly anything around social media influencers, all the above. These brands care less about the scale, all the people you're going to reach versus the quality of the people that you're going to reach. And that means are they engaged? Do they care? Do they listen when you talk? Will they because they heard you or engaged with you, interacted with you, saw your picture, whatever, will that drive them to consumerism and actually purchasing or making an action? So yeah, I think about this all the time. Every time I see a WNBA player do an interview, I'm always so impressed with the time they take to answer the questions. Cause I'm like, you don't see this level of engagement from any other league. I personally don't think. Well, anyways, I want to close this out with asking you a question to look into the future because of course we don't want Stewie to be the only one to have a Stewie effect. We want more and more and we know that there are tons around the league that are doing this in their respective cities and that this will continue to come. So Stewie, Jonquil, Jones, Vandersloot, they've shaken up the WNBA by coming over to the New York Liberty and really creating a super team. And the CBA continues to improve in terms of paying players. And I imagine that we can expect more players to join new ranks similar to what they did and make a similar impact to what Stewie particularly did for the Liberty. What are the chances of this level of impact happening again in the near future with like a player trade or a free agency signing or a ding ding, ding draft signing, any come to mind? I have. I personally have three that come to mind. I'll start with mine. Before I ask you, Ben, number one, I think if Jul Lloyd leaves Seattle and goes and signs with Aaliyah Boston in Indiana. Mayhem. Just money. Mayhem in Indiana. I think that will be a phenomenal, phenomenal squad. And yeah, I think that that would create the level of impact that, you know, Stewie has seen in New York and then the two draft signings anywhere Caitlin Clark goes and anywhere Angel Reese goes, those two are ecosystems or economies of themselves within the collegiate landscape. I can see them doing a similar thing on the pro level. What about you? What do you think?
- [41:30]
Ben Pickman
A few reactions. I mean, I think one, a lot of it, you know, we'll see. Going back to the team building point that I made, does a player take less to be in a better market? And so having that choice to create a super team, I think is important. Now I will say on Jewel first, Jewel did just sign an extension, so she made it clear that she isn't going anywhere or she has no intentions of going anywhere. But certainly a player like Jewel Lloyd, who has a Nike deal, you know, the Gold Mamba, and she has a number of custom player edition sneakers, like she has a high profile. She's. She's high profile enough. She has certainly the endorsements and the brands behind her to, you know, really make a difference and really continue to build her brand depending on where she goes. I mean, I think the point you make on the college front is super, super interesting. And you know, this is a podcast that will continue into the college season. I'm sure we'll have a version of this conversation, you know, in maybe at the start of the year, maybe around March Madness, when we talk TV ratings again, because we see how they are up and up year over year as well. But, you know, this is a really interesting time in college sports because of Nil. You mentioned you threw out some of the biggest names. Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, certainly Paige Beckers, who recently announced as a Nike athlete. Again, she made a number of high profile appearances. She could have, you know, a huge impact on whatever team she goes to because of the following, you know, throwing out one more college name that I think is kind of interesting, a little more off the radar is Aaliyah Edwards. You know, she is a forward at UConn and the reason I throw her out is because, you know, she's Canadian and we have all this conversation about a team in Toronto and you know, what the future could be in terms of expansion. And so, you know, Aliyah is the kind of player, she could enter the WNBA draft this year. I believe she might be able to as well in a future season. And obviously we don't know when the league expands. But a player like her who has a built in fan base from UConn but also has Canadian supporters, say two, three, four years down the road, you know, she is in the wnba, she's having a great career and she gets traded or signs with the team in Toronto, if that team does exist, like that is the kind of partnership, you know, if she's a good enough player, that could certainly lift the profile of the team, lift the profile of herself. I think that's a really interesting potential. You know, again, partnership between team, fan base, brand that, you know, I have kind of my eye on. If you're going to forecast and do some hypothetical, you know, puzzle creating, that, that's one that I think is super appealing too.
- [43:54]
Zena Keda
That's a really good one. I didn't, I didn't think about that. Especially after seeing that Toronto game earlier this season. There were so many calls for a team up north. And also I want to circle back. You know, Jewel signed a two year extension. You can still be in your prime shape at 31. You never know. You just never know. I'm not closing out hope on that. Anywho, thank you, Ben, for your thoughts on all of this. I mean, I encourage everyone to go read the article and also just stay close to the Super Squad series. Ben is following New York Liberty, Sabrina Merchant is following Las Vegas as they go throughout this season. And obviously it's a lot of fun stuff as they keep going all the way, hopefully to the finals for both of them. But it's time to say bye and change direction slightly because it's time for me to go off the script. All right, well, I want to stay in the realm of sports business, but transition from the WNBA to ncaa. If you haven't heard, the Dartmouth men's basketball team, which is a Division 1 school for those that don't know it's okay if you don't, has put in a petition to be recognized as a union with the National Labor Relations Board. Now, if they're successful, they would become the nation's very first student athlete labor union. Now, they aren't the first to try and do this. Northwestern football tried it back in 2014, if you remember that, but they failed. Northwestern wouldn't acknowledge them if they were gonna be treated as employees or not. They voted against it. They failed. But it seems that the Dartmouth men's basketball team has a better chance. And why this is, I think catching attention is that they have potentially a better chance than Northwestern did at being successful, mainly because other unions on Dartmouth's campus has found success. Their campus librarians recently unionized. They had some dining hall workers that reunionized. So they've been able to get some success. Which means that Dartmouth feels good about unions or is thinking nicely of unions, which is what these players need now. Don't. Don't get at me. I know this is a women's basketball podcast. Why am I talking about a men's basketball team? Well, if you thought back to when the conversation around name, image and likeness, or even the creation of the transfer portal back in 2018, these things that really changed the landscape of collegiate sports really had two main programs at every single school in mind. That was NCAA college football and NCAA Men's basketball, because they were looking at collegiate football and the amount of money that brings, and then also NCAA March Madness, lots of money. Right. And those two programs or those two verticals of sport were usually the main breadwinners. And thus that's really the main people that a lot of people felt should have a say in how student athletes generate money, how they make decisions about their education, their experiences as athletes, all the above. Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but the number one name, image, likeness, generators of money aren't men's basketball players, and they're not college football players. They're actually female athletes. And women's basketball players particularly are listing at the very top of that list. Overall, women's basketball has elevated itself since the beginning of these conversations to becoming programs across the country that are generating maybe not as much as collegiate football teams, but in certain schools, more than. So they are just as relevant and just as important in this conversation as a collegiate football team or as a men's basketball team. And. And if this goes through, this can open up more unions across the country, more football teams, more men's basketball teams, and even women's basketball players as well. And why that scares me is because as a former collegiate basketball player that played at Yale, a Division 1 school that didn't have scholarships, but I participated on the women's basketball team as if I had a scholarship. I was expected to go to practice, I was expected to go to lift, I was expected to go to weights, I was expected to go to film. I was expected to do all of those things and somehow also perform as a student. I remember those conditions were a little tough. Trying to sneak in meals before you had to go to weights, get showers in before you had to go to class after 6:00am Practice. Like, yeah, things were a little crazy. And I imagine that that's why students are looking to unionize, to help those conditions. But why I don't want to be an alarmist, but why I'm a little fearful is because I also now know what it's like to be an employee. And if the Dartmouth Union goes through. That is the question, will they. They will become employees of Dartmouth. And we all know those of us that have corporate America jobs, the conditions of being an employee are very different than being a student athlete under scholarship. Think about this. If you are a women's college basketball player and you're in an off season run just to stay in shape, you and your team decide, hey, let's go play out some pickup. Your coach did not sanction this. No one asked you to go to this. But it's your team that came together and someone tears their acl. That actually happened to one of my college teammates. Someone tears their ACL during that off season run. If you are an employee of a school versus a student athlete, there's a possibility that that school is not responsible for your injury, the rehabbing and medical attention of that injury, or keeping your scholarship. They could, quote, fire you. Or what if you're a Power 5 dubbed women's basketball school and you keep missing the Sweet 16 before it's just the coach that might get replaced. Could players get replaced? I mean, these are all hypotheticals, crazy big kind concepts. But that's what the conversation of unionizing does bring about. And it's not irrational to think about these things because at the end of the day, universities, colleges, are corporations and they have to protect their best interests. And if they now have employees instead of student athletes, those conditions under which they protect those best interests may change. I am very, very curious as to how all of this can play out. I understand students wanting better conditions for balancing that life of a student and balancing that life of an athlete. But I'm also fearful that it could unintentionally open up a Pandora's box of capitalistic behaviors from these colleges and universities. So I encourage you all to stay in touch and stay in tune with this and keep an eye on this, because it's coming up close. For now, they still have to vote this into existence for Dartmouth. They've put their petition in. They still have to vote it into existence. If they can't agree to a vote, they'll have a hearing that is set to start on October 3rd. No matter what happens, if they vote or not, whatever, they'll have this hearing of this year and then that hearing will go on as necessary, as long as necessary for them to reach a resolution. There will probably be years of appeals. So we might not get an answer to this this year or next year or in the next three years. But remember how far the conversation of name, image, likeness seemed. And then all of a sudden it was upon us. This could be the same thing with unions. So definitely keep an eye out regardless of what happens. I just really hope that young adults, the students, the athletes are protected in all of this. The exploitative nature that many collegiate athletes experience, not all, but several experience at the hands of the NCAA is flat out wrong. And the NCAA has a tall task in front of them if they want to keep student athletes as student athletes while still making money off of them. So I encourage you all to keep an eye out on this because it is interesting. It's a very complex issue. It will be something that could potentially change the collegiate sports landscape. It could remove the collegiate sports landscape as we know it. Anywho, just the thing to think about. That's all for today guys. Thank you all again for joining us. Make sure to tune in this weekend ESPN, ESPN2 for the WNBA semifinals. We will be back next week with more women's basketball to discuss. Of course. For the athletic, I'm Zena Keda encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game until next time.
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Ben Pickman
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