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- [00:00]
Wayfair Advertiser
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- [00:22]
Wayfair Host
There to watch them.
- [00:23]
Wayfair Advertiser
From Wayfair, you can have outdoor sofas, maybe a set of chairs, a gazebo, some umbrellas because it's really hot down here in the no matter the need Wayfair's huge selection of home items makes it easy to find exactly what's right for you. There's something for every style and every home, no matter your space or budget. Wayfair makes it easy to tackle your summer home goals with endless inspiration for every space and budget, including the outdoors. Free and easy delivery even on the big stuff. No more huge delivery fees for patio furniture. Get big stuff like patio sets, gazebos, hot tubs, outdoor dining sets and more shipped free. Find all your outdoor must haves from seating to pool lounges to trampolines, all in one convenient place. Shop a huge selection of outdoor furniture online this summer. Get outside with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home.
- [01:31]
Zena Keda
This episode of Talk of the Devils is brought to you by Shopify. When we're kids, we dream of being anything. A footballer, an astronaut, an international man, a mystery. But as we get older, reality kicks in and dreams change and we focus on how to take our skills and ideas and turn them into something tangible, like owning your own business. And for that, you'll need a website, a payment system, a logo, and a way to advertise to new customers. It can all be overwhelming and confusing, but that's where Shopify comes in. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. When it comes to websites, Shopify's got beautiful ready to go templates to match your brand style, and you can amplify that brand with Shopify's easy to run email and social media campaigns. Shopify's AI tools are created for commerce and can help you with tasks like generating discount codes, writing product descriptions and enhancing product images. And whenever you get stuck, Shopify's award winning 247 customer support is always there. So turn those dreams into sales and get the best shot at success with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.co.ukreddevils that's shopify.co.ukredDevils all in lowercase and with no spaces. One last time.
- [02:48]
Chelsea Gray
Shopify.co.ukredDevilS love looks different for everyone, especially when it comes to all the ways you treat and celebrate yourself. I'm a big hammock head Sunshine a hammock, a paperback western. That's my kind of everyday indulgence. And you can gift yourself the everyday indulgence of extraordinary Hydration with Liquid IV powered by Liv Hydro Science. Visit LiquidIV.com to fall in love with flavors like the zesty new hydration Multiplier Sugar free Raspberry Lemonade and use Code no dunks to save 20% off your first order. Liquid IV is easy and convenient. You just tear, pour and enjoy. It's my go to when I'm getting a pump in or handing out buckets, but it's great for staying hydrated during long days, enjoying the outdoors or any other time you need some hydration in your body. Liquid IV offers so many true to fruit flavors, whether they be hydration multipliers like acai berry, lemon, lime and pina colada, or sugar free like raspberry lemonade, white peach and rainbow sherbet. The flavors are always true to fruit, break the mold and your own ritual. Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone because Liquid IV is powered by LIV Hydro Science, an optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into extraordinary hydration. You're getting three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight essential vitamins and nutrients. And Liquid IV is always non gmo, vegan, gluten free, dairy free and soy free. So treat yourself to extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order at Liquid IV when you go to LiquidIV.com and use code no Dunks at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code no Dunks@liquidiv.com.
- [04:57]
Luke Cooper
For the athletic I'm Zena Keda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome to another special edition of the Athletic All Access where we tap in with influential voices around the world of women's hoops. Before we dive in, let me do my job and make sure that you are subscribed to this show. Wherever you get your podcast because you don't want to miss out on the conversations and insights that we have here like you're about to hear today. For today's episode, we are talking about the business and basketball of unrivaled, the new 3 on 3 women's basketball league that's set to launch today in Miami. Before ever having one basketball bounce on that newly developed court, which is beautiful, by the way, Unrivaled has already amassed more than anyone could have imagined for a startup women's basketball league. They've got a star studded roster of players, a marquee multi year media rights deal with TNT Sports, and a catalog of recognizable brands locked in as league sponsors. I need one of those Sephora bags. But today we're going to chat with the first player announced to a roster outside of the league's founders, Brianna Stewart and Afisa Collier. That's Chelsea Gray. You may recognize her as the WNBA's point goddess with some ridiculous passes to her teammates on the Las Vegas Aces. She's gotten a title with the Los Angeles Sparks and then two with the Las Vegas Aces recently, as well as some gold medals with Team usa. But for Unrivaled, she puts all that to the side and she is the point guard for the Rose Basketball Club, one of six clubs that will compete in Unrivaled. She'll discuss with us how she came to be a part of the league, how long those conversations actually took, and what she's looking forward. Following a chat with Chelsea, we'll jump to Luke Cooper, president of basketball operations for Unrivaled. You'll similarly learn how he became a part of the league and how the pandemic played an interesting role in his involvement, what his day to day role looks like with Unrivaled and why Unrivaled rivals other professional sports leagues. Take it away, Ben and Sabrina.
- [07:13]
Ben
All right, Chelsea Gray, thank you so much for taking the time with us today. Just first things first, from all of the media we've seen out of Unrivaled. So far, it kind of looks like WNBA summer camp, but in the winter, what is this first week of training camp been like for you?
- [07:26]
Sabrina
It's kind of giving a little bit of a bubble type of vibe, like everybody's kind of interacting whether you're on the same team or a different team. All the resources are here, right in one place. So everything's available whenever you need it. So it's been pretty cool just being around everyone and just kind of getting used to what this will all look like for a Few months.
- [07:49]
Interviewee
Are there already like card games? I don't know, rivalries, shooting contests, just like anything that are emerging. Or do you think like, talk to us in week five and we'll see how those summer camp dynamics play out.
- [08:02]
Sabrina
We gotta wait for a little bit. Everybody's like been with their respective teams. We haven't really had too many like crossovers, like going to do workouts yet. Cause we're trying to kind of get in the flow. And a few of us maybe have hung out that have like prior friendships and stuff, but haven't had too many times where a bunch of us are together all at once yet.
- [08:25]
Ben
I imagine you're spending a lot of time with the Laces then, right?
- [08:28]
Sabrina
Yeah, I spent some time with Jack and Tip a little bit. Talk to them a lot when I see them, whenever I see them in the hallways and stuff.
- [08:37]
Interviewee
What has it been like just for you? You were the third player to commit publicly or third player announced for unrivaled and the first. You know, Stewie and Fee are co founders. You know, you also have different representation, play for a different WNBA team. So in theory, maybe you took a little bit of a risk or a chance to sign up for unrivaled. But I guess can you kind of fill us in on your process, how you weighed the decision to play or not, how you first learned about unrivaled and what kind of made you say, yes, I'm going to be, you know, I guess player number three involved in this inaugural league?
- [09:13]
Sabrina
Yeah, I was. I talked to a lot of them very, very early. Talk to Fee, Stewie, Alex and Luke. I talked to Alex and Luke very, very early, before I even start talking with Stewie and Fee about what this could kind of look like a few a couple years ago, actually trying to figure out what timing, what was the timing, how many weeks, what it could possibly look like. Full court, half court, like all the different things kind of from the beginning. So I just honestly I wanted to compete in the off season and not go overseas. That was part of like my plan, especially with my son being so young. Like I wanted to be home and be around family, see different people and family come in. But also competing at a high level opportunity to get better, that was a big thing. But also get paid like money and salary is a big thing. So trying to figure out how to balance all of those options. And so it was a continuous kind of conversations and check ins and figuring out what this could look like, opinions and different meetings before actually signing on the dotted line. But I wanted to do it pretty early.
- [10:28]
Ben
How long was that pitch process, you know, that you were talking with Alex and Luke?
- [10:33]
Sabrina
I don't know. I was overseas when we first had our initial conversation. So it's. I didn't go overseas last season, so the year before. So this talks really started early.
- [10:43]
Interviewee
That was when I saw you in Turkey, Chelsea. You must have been that season.
- [10:46]
Sabrina
I knew something about it before. Yeah.
- [10:48]
Ben
So did they have to, like, wine and dine you or, like, what sort of pitch process are we talking about?
- [10:52]
Sabrina
It wasn't really a wine and dine. It was more like, hey, this is what we're kind of thinking of doing. This is what it could look like. These are different things that we're talking about, what salary ranges it could kind of be. So it was like an open kind of dialogue. There wasn't really a wine and dine type of process because it was kind of from the ground up. They were building something kind of special.
- [11:15]
Interviewee
What was that like for you to help, you know, build it? I mean, it seems like. And I think you've talked a little bit about it, you were involved, like, some of Stewie and Fee in providing some of that feedback or making some of your thoughts known. Like, what were some of the elements that you kind of pushed for that you're now finally seeing materialize now that you know you're here?
- [11:33]
Sabrina
Yeah, one of the things I know, I mean, Stewie and Fi are both moms, but that was a big thing to being able to have resources as a mother playing and nanny service, that was one thing. Obviously, salary, like, it has to move the needle quite a bit for people to want to commit to something that's totally different, and then how long it was going to be, when was the cutoff time, how could we incorporate these? Because different people have, like, various things that they're working on in the off season outside of basketball. So how can we kind of let that, Let them be free and push people's brands and let them do other things while also competing and getting better, basketball wise? Because at the end of the day, we're Hoopers and we want to get better, and that's how we make our breads as well. So it was a kind of a mixture of those three elements that I really wanted to understand at first on.
- [12:27]
Interviewee
The topic of childcare, like, what has that been like so far? What can you kind of tell listeners and the audience just about the services that you guys are provided and have accessible to you, and, you know, how they've been.
- [12:39]
Sabrina
I mean, it's really cool to kind of see like kids have an opportunity to kind of play with each other. But like 90 minutes before the first, before the first game. Nanny services are available here at the arena. And so my son goes in there, he plays a little bit and that he's in there during because he's not really, he's too young. He's not really watching the game that much. And so he comes in there every. He like pops in, like my wife will go get him a couple times, pops in and then brings him out and then he goes back and plays. He fell asleep here the first game, so it was pretty cool. Like that he's back there and then they stay for a time period afterwards, let us get all ready and everything and then we pick him up so like we can just focus on our job. That's one thing that I know that we, you know, we're not really comparing leagues and stuff, but that's something that can get better for other leagues, especially the childcare. And it's a big difference being able to have that resource available.
- [13:43]
Ben
You know, we've heard a lot of other players talking about the amenities that you guys have in Miami for unrivaled. You come from Las Vegas where I'm sure you're pretty well taken care of. But in addition to childcare, are there other things that you've seen so far that you like that unrivaled has done that you haven't seen in other leagues?
- [13:56]
Sabrina
Yeah, they have things like therabody. Right. They have all the resources there, all the contraptions and tools and then there's a glam lounge. There's places to do media just like this. Like they have a special carved out places for these types of things. So if you need to do something that's outside of unrivaled, maybe you book this space and have this space. So there's a lot of resources here on the ground and it's everywhere. You don't have to really go and outsource to go do anything. Everything is right here. So they have all of the top notch machinery, whether it's in the weight room or in the training room. So everything is right here for you. So it's been pretty cool that it's like a few steps away. If you need extra work or anything.
- [14:42]
Ben
That you need, you know, in terms of that extra work, like you're a veteran, you obviously have to be very intentional about how you use your off season in terms of getting ready for the WNBA season. So I'm wondering Like, how do you think playing three on three is going to help you in terms of being a Las Vegas ace later this year?
- [14:58]
Sabrina
It's going to be great. We were just, we were talking about it like we're just going to come back in even better shape. Fine tuning and getting better in certain areas. Like three on three, you got to be in good condition. Not even just like wind and running, but like muscles, body, movement, health. Like we have a chance to come back even better. Still playing, getting better, getting some game reps and actually playing in competition, but also like taking care of our bodies and it's not too much and too taxing, like an overseas season and all the travel. So I think that's a great thing and it's going to be good for me, especially just getting in great, great shape and my body feeling right and feeling the best it's ever felt.
- [15:43]
Interviewee
Do you feel like the W, like in May, like we're just going to see better games, better performances because it seems like you're not alone and feeling that way. Like BG was talking about it. I think Stu was talking about it. It seems like player after player is talking about, you know, how good shape they expect to be in. And so, like, what's it gonna look like in May when the W picks up again?
- [16:01]
Sabrina
I think you see in May, like a lot of people, like, trying to get their wind in May and June. I think right off the top, you're gonna see people being able to do that from the beginning. And so that's kind of going to be a different element. There's not going to be really like jogging into season. It's like straight off the bat, you're kind of sprinting right into it. Everybody getting ready to play.
- [16:23]
Ben
I mean, playing overseas, I'm sure you have the opportunity to see WNB while you're there. And like, there are people you run into, but like, is it a little different to just like be around everyone all the time? Like, is that gonna, I don't know, change your relationships when it comes to wnba?
- [16:38]
Sabrina
I don't know. I guess we'll, we'll see. I get along with a bunch of people, so that might be a question for someone else. Like I said, it's kind of like I've experienced this on a different level with the W, with the bubble. So it's a little bit closer right now, but. And there's not as many players, but like we're in the training room and there's players from different teams, so the interaction is cool. But like I haven't had a problem with it thus far. Maybe ask me and defend the.
- [17:09]
Ben
When the games start, right?
- [17:11]
Sabrina
Yeah, we'll see. I mean, the competitive fire, I think it'll distance people sometimes, but we're going to have to be around each other.
- [17:17]
Interviewee
What do you think it will be like when free agency really gets underway and some players are meeting with teams and negotiating? Have you thought about that?
- [17:25]
Sabrina
Little things and little tidbits all the time. So, I mean, free agency, that's what it's all about. You want to get rumblings out there in the media and we gonna, you know, we want to be top of mind for fans and other teams. There's going to be coaches coming in and out, like GMs coming in and out. So it's really going to be a whole little vibe over here in Miami on and off the court. So we'll see. I mean, I'm glad I'm not a part of it.
- [17:50]
Interviewee
That's great. Right. Becky will be there sooner than later watching and recruiting for all you guys. What do you think? Just generally, like, if you put your fortune teller hat on five years from now, how will unrivaled, do you think, change the paradigm for players going overseas?
- [18:07]
Sabrina
I think you'll see more people not going, maybe expansion to travel with unrivaled, so other markets can be able to see us play, not just here in Miami and they have to travel in. You'll see players wanting to be involved. It might be an opportunity for more teams and more roster spots for unrivaled. You know, when you talk about year one and where you want to go in year five, you really have to see, like the complete thing kind of play out. To be able to say that, I would say, but obviously everybody has a year one, year three, year five kind of plan. So I definitely see unrivaled expanding to not just being in Miami.
- [18:43]
Ben
I guess just to back up on that, like, having been part of these conversations for, it seems like two years now, like, how have your expectations been met so far? Just in year one, week one, it's been good.
- [18:54]
Sabrina
I mean, everybody's coming here is like, oh, we really have this. We have this resource. We have this resource. And a lot of things aren't coming out of our pocket, like finding investors and people investing in the sport, investing in us as women. Like, if you put us out there, you see the product, we have a great product. You know, people will come, people will pay and everybody will love it. That's like in the market. So I think unrivals that good job of doing that and bringing in people like companies like Sephora and therabody. You got tnt. Like you have these different companies and organizations that want to be a part of something special. So I think it's really cool to kind of see people coming into it in the inaugural season.
- [19:39]
Ben
Speaking of tnt, Candice Parker obviously going to be calling or doing the studio work for some of your games. What's that going to be like for you? You're one of your best friends a.
- [19:48]
Sabrina
Little bit and talk to her. She was here for a little bit, so that was cool to see her. But yeah, if I have to do an interview with her, I'm just gonna be like, what you doing later? Like, you know, just mess with her a little bit.
- [19:59]
Interviewee
Perhaps another recruiting effort. Can you draw her out of retirement? That that would be really your free agency picture.
- [20:04]
Sabrina
You gotta go where you gotta get.
- [20:05]
Interviewee
Low hanging fruit and just last one as we close. Jealous, like heading into the season, I, I guess just, you know, to the fan who's tuning in, just what do you kind of want them to understand most about the experience of a women's basketball player? Someone like yourself who has been playing overseas for so long that is now jumping into this experiment, like why should they tune in and why does this kind of opportunity matter for people like you and so many other players there?
- [20:31]
Sabrina
Everybody can hoop. It's really cool to see like everybody's not in their teams. You know, you only got six people to a team. It's an opportunity to see everybody kind of rock. Like everybody can go out there and get a bucket, everybody can defend. So it's like people tuning in like they're seeing different people handle the ball, different people on TV and maybe they become a fan of that individual player. And that's what we want. We want the growth of the sport itself. And so you might tune into different matchups in the W and the team as a whole. But now maybe you tune into a specific player because you like the way they play or individuals are highlighted a little bit more. So I like that perspective of it. So I'm excited for new fans to kind of join this, you know, basketball game.
- [21:21]
Interviewee
Very nice. I guess we will leave it there. We should say this is Chelsea Gray, not only Las Vegas Aces guard, but for the purpose of this conversation, a Rose basketball club guard. She will be playing with Kylia Copper, Lexi Hull, Angel Reese, Azara Stevens and Brittany Sykes. So Chelse, we appreciate you making a bunch of time talking to us on the Athletic women's basketball show. And best of luck as Unrival gets underway.
- [21:41]
Sabrina
Thank you.
- [21:42]
Ben
All right, we are joined by Luke Cooper, the president of basketball operations for Unrivaled. Luke, welcome to the show. Thank you for taking the time for us.
- [21:51]
Wayfair Host
Of course. Thank you, guys.
- [21:52]
Ben
Yeah, so we kind of want to just start at the beginning. Curious, like, how you got involved with Alex and what sort of the origin of Unrivaled was for you. How did you get involved here?
- [22:03]
Wayfair Host
Yeah, Alex and I have been friends for over a decade now. Both of us come from the player development side of basketball. That's kind of where our origins were. I became close with him and Fee even more so during COVID actually lived with him for what was supposed to be like two weeks. As, you know, the COVID thing dragged out for much longer than that. So two weeks turned into six months. Became really close with, with him and Nafisa and saw how, you know, she had to live her life as a, as a WNBA player going overseas and doing different things to make, you know, additional money in the quote unquote off season. And so when, when him and Nafisa brought the idea of Unrivaled to me was a perfect mix between basketball, which is my passion, and business, which is my other passion. Kind of dive in and help where I could and kind of try to make this, you know, dream become. Become a real life vision.
- [22:59]
Interviewee
Had you guys ever, in living in that period, living together maybe I guess is the right phrase. Like had you guys ever talked about an idea like this or, I don't know, some of the challenges or just the circumstances that someone like Fee and so many other players in the W go through or was it kind of later conversations?
- [23:16]
Wayfair Host
Yeah, I mean, I think we always. My background and a lot of Alex's background is in NBA player development. And so every summer we would meet in LA for, for a couple months and we would throw pickup runs and Alex would throw, you know, some of the most legendary pickup runs in la. So we got to see that side of, of basketball at the highest of levels where players were just playing and they were just hooping. And I think that's where it kind of really started. Right. It was like we. We saw the, the closed gyms where the best players in the world were going at each other. And because of the CBA rules, the differences between the W in, in the NBA, there's unrivaled Was the reality that could happen. Right. It can't happen, you know, because of the current rules in the NBA, but it could happen in the W where a lot of the players were going overseas. So I think the concept was like, well, if we know what happens in the NBA off season, what if we brought that to the, to the best women players in the world. But instead of being pickup games, it was a real league and something that could, you know, people could tune into and, and could, could grow as time goes on.
- [24:28]
Interviewee
Yeah.
- [24:29]
Ben
So you're the president of basketball operations for this league. I'm wondering, can you just explain to us what that means for you? Like what does that mean on a day to day basis here?
- [24:36]
Wayfair Host
Depends on what day it's, it's a little bit of everything. I think honestly it's titles are our starting block around here. But what makes unrivaled unrivaled is at any moment anyone will be doing anything to make this possible. And so one day it's, you know, figuring out how we're going to do our draft and make sure that the clubs are even. The next day it's unloading 200 boxes of body armor and under armours that are in our equipment room. And that's just that startup life, that sports. And I think that's true to not only myself, but anyone who's in the building is like, if there's a problem that needs to be done, no one cares about what the title is, we just do it. And so it's been really, really great. You know, obviously we brought on Claire to kind of be our GM and EVP of basketball operations in the last month and I've learned a ton from her on the W side. So it's just been, it's been a, you know, a journey for myself, learning from people that are much smarter than me. But you know, my day to day changes, honestly, by the hour.
- [25:47]
Interviewee
You mentioned the roster formation and I think this next question applies to a lot of different contexts, but I think for a lot of people, the fact that you are creating something from scratch affords you a level of creativity and autonomy and just the ability to shape a new entity, whatever, however you want, in whatever way you want. So before even explaining a little bit of how the rosters came together and you know, I would recommend everyone watch the video that you guys posted. How did you just decide like the fairest way to make the teams the way you did with all the coaches sitting around at one table with the pods being split up, like, did you talk to players? Were there other, I don't know, drafts or new leagues that you said, okay, the PLL started this way or the NWSL started this way, or, you know, what was kind of the, the different approach. How did you even approach it generally?
- [26:39]
Wayfair Host
Yeah, I think, you know, it was such a big moment for the league, right? We. We had announced 30 some players at that time. Everyone was excited for the. The collection of talent. But then everyone's next question was, well, how, like, who are they playing with? Right? And I know internally we didn't want. We didn't want to make that decision, right? Like, we wanted a separation, you know, from, you know, the front office to what was going on in the court. Obviously, a normal club or normal team has a GM and, you know, for each team, and we didn't have that. Right. And so we threw around every idea you could possibly think of. Do the players, you know, do we have six captains and the players pick? Do the coaches pick? And ultimately we didn't want. We wanted to do it in a way that didn't create any drama or stress on the coaches, because if a coach has to draft their team, that's cool. But then they're also not drafting other players, right? And so we didn't want that in the, you know, as the building. Everyone came into the building, so, oh, you could have drafted me, you didn't draft me. So ultimately what we came up with was, you know, six pods and one player per pod on each club. And the best part about it was, as you alluded to in the video, the coaches didn't know who they were going to coach. So the whole exercise was, can we build the most six evenly balanced competitive clubs? And then after that, we would assign a coach to a club, right? So that was fun for them. They didn't know who they were going to be coaching. So we got incredible dialogue. Players that should play together, players that, you know, maybe shouldn't play together, and different, you know, expertise from. From trainers and coaches and everyone in that room who has so much knowledge of the game of basketball. So I'm very proud of how that turned out. I think the players enjoyed, was very to the point of what we were doing. And it's. It was a big step for us to make. Making this league, you know, stand on what it should be and something that's going to continue to be here.
- [28:46]
Ben
It was very good television, I can attest to that. I was, like, riveted watching the whole.
- [28:49]
Wayfair Host
Thing go through perfect.
- [28:51]
Ben
Although it is confusing now because of all the trades that have happened. But we'll get to that later. But you mentioned you have the six coaches, these basketball minds, working through the process of building the rosters with you. It is a very interesting selection of coaches. How involved were you in the process of figuring out who is going to be a part of this league And I guess what were you looking for in terms of what unrivaled wanted in their coaches?
- [29:13]
Wayfair Host
Yeah, we, we wanted great people. Number one, you know, these, these coaches are going to be around the players more than anyone. And player experience is like our North Star in every decision we make. And then we wanted people that could develop players. So we have a, you know, some of our coaches are non traditional, quote unquote basketball coaches. They come from more of the player development side. That's, you know, obviously my background and Alex's background. So we, so we knew what we wanted there. You know, we have, at the same time we have established coaches like T. Spoon, you know, who's a, who's a legend in her own right, and Andrew Wade, who's been in the W for, for years. And so we felt like we had a really unique group of talent on the coaching side that was also different, right. Like depending on what club you were with, you were going to get an incredible experience, but it was also going to be a different experience based on that coach's back. But the number one thing was like, who, who do we want to surround these athletes with who can help, you know, these women grow on and off the court? This is still about basketball, still about mentorship and leadership. And so we feel really, really good about the, about the crew we assembled.
- [30:23]
Interviewee
It is a really interesting crew. I mean, right. The experiences are so varied and I think it seems like the early returns are very positive. Like all the players certainly in the first week of training camp were glowing about, you know, their new experiences and just who they were working with. So I guess that's a credit to how you split the teams and who you brought in to run them.
- [30:42]
Wayfair Host
Yeah, I mean, I think our biggest win is, you know, we are six clubs underneath one building. Right. Sharing a lot of the same, the same things, but each, each club has their own identity, which is really, really hard to do. It's really hard to do given our circumstances of the building and what we've tried in the infrastructure we've tried to build. And that to me is, you know, the biggest win is Rose cares about Rose. Ms. Cares about Ms. We're all unrivaled at the end of the day, but when that ball is, you know, when they're playing in between the lines, it's competitive and they want to win for, for Their team.
- [31:17]
Interviewee
You mentioned playing in between the lines. I assume you had a huge involvement on the rules of this league, which are also very interesting. Right. You guys have made a deliberate choice to not just have it be FIBA 3 on 3, nor is it traditional WNBA or NBA 5 on 5. It's a modified 3 on 3. It's a shorter court, and there are a number of rules that are different than you would see in both three on three and the wnba. And you guys have made, I guess, some choices about what they are going to be, I guess. First, can you just explain some of the key differences that you want to highlight and maybe just like explain also how you ended up getting to some of those differences or what some of those discussions were like that led you to, you know, a different court or a different, you know, one through three quarters being seven minutes and the fourth quarter being a different ending, that kind of thing.
- [32:09]
Wayfair Host
Yeah. I mean, first, the style of play, like, that was like, normal to me. Like three on three, full court. Like, I used to do that as a kid at a small, small court, like an elementary school with my buddies. We would play two on two, full quarter, three on three, full court. So, like, everyone's so surprised by that. And I get it, because you think three on three, you think FIBA three on three. But I think anyone who grew up playing basketball has played this style of basketball before on a shortened court. And it was. It's a huge thing for us because it's basketball. Right? Like, I think Phoeb is great in their own right. They do a bunch of amazing things, but for us as basketball people, we wanted the flow and the pace. And when you watch our game, it feels like basketball. You have to remind yourself that it's only six players on the court, not 10. It doesn't feel. It doesn't feel like three on three. It just feels like basketball. The. The size of the court, the distance of the court it's. It's built for. The shot clock is 18 seconds. We got there because of a bunch of math of what a normal shot clock is and how many people are on the court. So, like, when you watch it as a fan and even as a player, it's basketball. It's not. It doesn't feel like anything new. You just have more space to operate, more. More chances to score more possessions kind of in a game. But from the basketball nerd in me, it feels like I'm watching basketball every time I watch, you know, the teams play the quarters. Sometimes you just got to throw something out there. And see what happens. And we did a bunch of testing in a bunch of different ways. We landed on the seven minute quarters. It's like the perfect mixture between, you know, six is a little too short, you can't really get into a flow. Eight is a little too long, like seven again, when you watch it and when you play it, it's like, this is right. And sometimes you just kind of know what's right. You mentioned our quote unquote fourth quarter, which we're calling, you know, the winning score, where we add, you know, 15 to the team who's up. So if it's 70 to 55, you know, first team to 85 wins. You know, you watch the end of these basketball games and they drag on so long, right? Because. And they should. Teams are smart, they have analytics. I should foul here. I should call my time out here. I should do this here in, you know, the last four minutes of a game might take 35 actual minutes or the actual minutes, you know, and so for us, again, this goes back to being a kid. When you're playing basketball with your friends, you don't set a timer, you go to a number. And so that's what we're doing. And I would be surprised if more leagues don't, don't look at that as a way to kind of speed up the end of games and just make it about actual basketball. Less about like the analytics of. Should I foul here? I'm up two. I'm up one. When do I call the timeout to advance it? You're just watching basketball in its purest form. So we're really excited about the product.
- [35:03]
Ben
I'm also really happy that you guys have the one free throw to represent two points or three points, depending on the fouls, because you're just taking out the most boring parts of a game.
- [35:12]
Wayfair Host
Yeah. And that's something that's like, honestly been awesome because every free throw now is like magnified a little bit. Right. And it's, it's like this free throw really means something. If you miss it, it's like I just missed out on two points or three points. If you make it, it's the same feeling the other way. So again, I, I know I'm biased, of course, but when you watch, it's. It's basketball. It's not all these gimmicks of like, oh, we're changing. Like, to be honest, like, we didn't want to change a lot of things. We're already reinventing the wheel with how we're playing the game. We want this to be about basketball and about the game in its purest form. And we feel like we've landed in a really good spot there even with the tweaks and changes that we've made.
- [35:54]
Interviewee
Along the rolls lines you can take, I guess answer either one of these questions or both depending on how you, what you think. One, was there a, I don't know, something really crazy that you wanted to try or you thought would be fun but like was just too out there for you to apply in this context. Whether that's a four point shot, whether that's a five point shot, whether that's just something we wouldn't think about but like you guys or you for whatever reason really like. So that's, that's question A, you can tackle or B, is there something that you know, you think the WNBA or the NBA will kind of see in your rules and apply to that league in the way that like we've seen some NFL kickoff changes stem from alternative leagues?
- [36:37]
Wayfair Host
Yeah, both are incredible questions and that's an incredible answer. I think, you know, again we created a new style of basketball and I think we always start there when it comes to like how innovative can you be? I feel like we might have like had our best at bad at first when it comes to creating the new style of three on three. Of course everyone talks about the four point shot and all these different things and it's. I don't think that was for us. Right. If, if other leagues want to experiment with that, I think that you know, in their own right they will again. I think our end of game fourth quarter is something that other leagues might, might look at just because of again, like I said, the, the end of these games takes so long and there's so much strategy and analytics involved that like they should take long if you're doing things the right way. And I think adding, you know, kind of a winning score to it maybe alleviates that a little bit, but it'll be interesting. I think every league learns from other leagues, right. And takes different rules in the game of basketball or the game of football is constantly evolving and I think that's what good leagues do, both the NBA and the WNBA is they will take the best idea. Right. And whether it's the in season tournament or you know, they might switch up probably how teams are ranked in the playoffs. Right. And get away from conferences eventually. I think every league that's successful continues to evolve and learn from other people, including us. I'm sure we'll. Someone will do something in the next year that we'll look at and be like, that's a really good idea and maybe we should implement.
- [38:15]
Ben
I just saw nothing about challenges and replay review on the rules list. So I'm just crossing my fingers, you know, that we, we have a more watchful product there.
- [38:23]
Wayfair Host
We will have a. We have one challenge.
- [38:25]
Ben
Oh my God. One challenge. Man, Luke, I was just having such a good time here.
- [38:29]
Wayfair Advertiser
It's tough.
- [38:30]
Wayfair Host
I mean, that's one. We went back and forth on it that, you know, at the end of the day it's. It does. It can slow down the game, but can also determine a game. Right. And so I think our emphasis is on speeding up that process. You know, I don't think anyone has an issue with like someone challenging a call. It's the fact that like, if it takes five minutes, if you can't see it kind of right away, maybe we kind of already know the answer, you know what I mean? Instead of getting every little angle and, you know, zooming into every little small thing. But that's one that we went back and forth on for a while for sure.
- [39:07]
Ben
The last thing I want to ask you is, you know, you talked about you having a background in player development and a lot of the coaches you guys brought in having a background in player development. It would seem to be very important for the WNBA players to be working on their games and developing during the off season. And I'm wondering, we've heard them talk a lot about conditioning, but other than that, how do you feel like playing three on three is going to help them become better five on five players?
- [39:28]
Wayfair Host
Yeah, it's real basketball. You know, it's actions essentially. If you watch, whether it's NBA or the wnba, everything's a three person game and there's two people in the corner, right. Pretty much every action a team is going to run is going to be a three man, three woman action with two shooters in the corner. And so what I think we're doing is it's real basketball and I think it's going to help the players truly understand the reads. The reads are going to be a lot more clear for them. Right? Because you might not have that, that help defender, that 2, 9 defender coming over or someone tagging from the corner. And so I think, I think this is the best possible development place you could be. Right. If all you cared about was just getting better at basketball, this is where you go, you get training from the best, you know, strength and conditioning team in the world. You get training from the best trainers in the world, our actual game flow, everyone's involved, right? You're, you're in every action. We don't have people sitting in the corner for possession over possession over possession. So I think it's like when you just do the analytics of how often are you involved in an action both on offense or defense. It's every single play, right? So you start to see the frames over and over and over again from these high ball screens, pin downs, whatever you want to run as a coach. These players, the reps that they're getting in our game are double, triple of what they might get in a normal game or normal practice, because that's all you can do. You're just running these, these two and three man games. So we've already seen it in the first week of things starting to click and truly understand if you know this person does this, I do this and this is the play and this is the read. So again, from a basketball nerd, that's been really cool and fulfilling to me. See the growth and see the light bulbs kind of come on in the players heads as they start to see things the way that, you know, the coach is intending them to.
- [41:23]
Interviewee
Just real quick then, along those lines, like you mentioned, all the things that you have done so far to get this league off the ground, whether it's the rules, whether it's coming up with the style of basketball you just described, whether it's unloading boxes off a truck, right. On any given day, just every day being different. But is there some, I don't know, personal touch or some detail about the facility or about starting a league, just something that for whatever reason, as this has launched, has sticks out in your mind for whatever reason? Right. We've heard players talk about the glam room and the training facility and massage therapists and all like all these different things. But for you in your role, is there something that sticks out that you're especially proud of or that you wanted to highlight that the layperson who's watching unrivaled or tuning in might not recognize at all?
- [42:13]
Wayfair Host
Yeah, I mean like everything that anyone sees we built internally, right? And like our building, we took over and built it in 40 days like it was basically an empty soundstage. And so any clip that you see from our arena is our team. And everyone had a hand in the whole part of it, including the logos and the names of the teams and the name, the logo of our actual unrivaled, like we, we kind of did it all and we had great partners that helped with that process. But I think like everyone in our building cares so much about every detail, right? So there's a thousand things I can name that no one would notice, but everyone in here noticed. And I think that, that we owed it to the players. We owed it to ourselves. You know, I think, I don't know what people think about unrivaled or what they thought about unrivaled or what it could be. But we, we care about every detail from how the labels are stacked in the, in the fridges to how many towels are on the court for the players, to what time the lights come on the building in the morning, to what time does the cleaning crew get there. So it's perfect every morning. We care about everything. And I don't think that you can be successful in this industry unless you do. And that's across the board. That's not me. That's just the culture we've created from top to bottom is like this is everyone's baby. This isn't just the play. This is everyone who's here is working 60, 70, 80 hours a week because no one wants to go home because they understand that what we're trying to do is unique and probably will never be done again. And we have one chance to kind of get it right.
- [44:01]
Interviewee
I think that is a good place to leave it. I think the players reception has been, I think they've certainly taken notice of all those little details and have talked about it publicly so far. And I think as you're describing, all the little details certainly resonate with you. So Luke, we appreciate you making a little bit of time and sharing a little bit of insight about the founding of Unrivaled and you know, Friday, 7pm Eastern on TNT, Myst and the Lunar Owls. Brianna Stewart and Nafeesa Collier back at it again in very different context. We appreciate you joining the athletic women's basketball show, of course.
- [44:32]
Wayfair Host
Thank you guys.
- [44:33]
Luke Cooper
Thank you to Chelsea and to Luke for those wonderful insights into Unrivaled. I mean from the outside it is very clear that this league and its founders Brianna Stewart and Afiza Collier care about the player first, making sure that they have a wonderful offseason experience where they are prioritized, their families are prioritized, their development is prioritized and all of the things that they would need are available to them during this eight week season. Very excited to see how this kicks off tonight. As Ben mentioned, 7pm Eastern Friday, January 17, get a glimpse of the women's basketball newest venture. Now I know it's women's college basketball season. But folks, it's also college football season. Do not miss on the great content that is produced throughout the Athletic Podcast Network. We have a podcast called Until Saturday and it has you covered for the College Football National Championship. We got David Ubben, Chris Vanini and Damian Harris that will bring you bold predictions, behind the scenes access and exclusive interviews, including with ESPN's Paul Finebaum. These guys will be in Atlanta throughout the weekend and they will have instant reaction podcasts on YouTube immediately following Monday's championship. So subscribe to Until Saturday on your favorite podcast platform or on YouTube. On behalf of Chelsea, Luke, Ben and Sabrina, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for your ear and encouraging you. Keep listening, keep watching, keep learning and keep loving the game. Because that's the way that things like unrivaled can take root. And that's the only way we're going to keep growing the game until next time.
- [46:26]
Wayfair Host
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- [46:52]
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- [47:45]
Wayfair Host
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where.
- [47:55]
Ben
We make fun of everything, but most importantly, ourselves.
- [47:57]
Wayfair Host
I'm Paige Desorbo.
- [47:59]
Ben
I'm Hannah Berner.
- [48:00]
Wayfair Host
Welcome to the squad.
- [48:01]
Ben
Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time.
- [48:05]
Wayfair Host
But of course we can't be managed.
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Ben
So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling.
- [48:10]
Wayfair Host
We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games. And guests listen to Giggly Squad on.
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Ben
Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [48:23]
Wayfair Host
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.
- [48:30]
Ben
Com.