← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
The WNBA's Popularity Explosion: On-Court Talent and Off-Court Influence
00:52:31
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- [00:00]
Ben Pickman
Ready to order?
- [00:01]
Paige
Yes.
- [00:02]
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- [00:30]
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- [01:28]
Zena Keda
Hello, everyone, and welcome to no off season. I'm Zena Keda.
- [01:32]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [01:33]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [01:35]
Zena Keda
And today on the show, the 2025 W season was a pivotal year marked by record breaking viewership, breakout rookie performances, and unexpected competitive parody. With the WNBA season in the books, we're taking a look at some of the major trends that have surrounded the league's unforgettable year. But first, I just want to say bravo. Applause all around. Ben and Sabrina absolutely held it down while I was out, and I appreciated just tuning in, listening to everything on the sites on the scene. It was really, really awesome the way you guys were able to give us both the insight of what was going on around the league as well as what was going on within this finals. Because I think this is the first finals in which it felt like there was competing storylines going on at the same time. And I think you guys did a really great job of breaking that down. And I also love, you know, scrolling down my social media feed. Shout out, Ashley Young and Bri, just handling our social media feed throughout the entire, you know, finals. They did a great job. I hope you follow them on social media, particularly on Instagram. And to my surprise, as I'M seeing Ben finding himself beside a certain goat. And I was just wondering, you know, as Asia Wilson peered over your. Your laptop, was there anything that you were like, let me put this down. Let me close this tab. Like, what was going on as you were looking, you know, and Asia Wilson is just casually with her pink tambourine and her ski goggles looking over your shoulder?
- [03:03]
Ben Pickman
Well, it's a funny question because I think I actually showed her my laptop, as I said on Friday night. I was like, asia, do you want to help me write this story? And she basically was like, what do you got? And I showed her. And I then was thinking about what were the notes that. That I had on my screen. I think there were some quotes, like from a notes document from what Nate Tibbetts was saying or had said at his press conference when he was complaining about the officiating and his ejection. I think I had written some things down in shorthand that Mark Davis, who was talking as Asia Wilson filed into the room. That was another thing on my screen. Can you imagine if I, like, had glowing paragraphs open about Asia on my screen and then she was reacting to them? Like, that would have been a very funny situation. I just really didn't know what to do in that moment. Like, you couldn't do nothing or say nothing. And I also felt like I, you know, you know, someone was talking. Mark Davis was at the podium talking. I couldn't just sit there and act like nothing was happening. And I also saw all the cameras and all the phones all around me. So, yeah, I mean, I've heard from a lot of people about that moment. Xena, friends who follow w, friends who don't. I appreciate all the comments, all the tags. Yeah, that was a memorable moment for me this WNBA Finals.
- [04:13]
Sabrina Merchant
I like your understanding that you couldn't do nothing because if you watch the video that's posted on the athletic socials, you can hear Ashley, like, whispering, do something. Ah, that's hilarious.
- [04:23]
Zena Keda
The first time I saw it, I listened to it with. I saw it without sound. So I'm have to go back and listen closer. But I think you handled yourself well. I think this is an ad for privacy screens for your laptops. But overall, I mean, if there's one person looking at your screen, it's Asia Wilson. Not too bad of a person beside you. That's awesome. I thought that was such a cool moment and that whole celebration. It just seems as if Asia Wilson continues to elevate in her ability to celebrate just being one of the Best players and obviously her team being phenomenal. But staying on the topic of Asia, I wanted to ask you guys, Asia Wilson, three titles in four years, three MVPs. She is in the same category, her and Bill Russell, like Those are the two that I've been able to get three titles and three MVPs in such amount of time. Goat status. There's not much else you can talk about when it, when you're talking about Asia Wilson. I loved the meme of the goat with the A1s on with the pink wig and if you look at the back leg with a leg sleeve on, the attention to detail was phenomenal by fans. But when you think about what Asia Wilson has done, what ways has her impact reshaped the power Dynamics in the WNBA? Because remember this team was 500, 500 at All Star break and then they got beat by 53 and then they went on a 16 game winning streak to take the title behind Asia Wilson.
- [05:51]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, she was pretty dominant before that streak. Anyway, like, Asia Wilson has been consistently excellent even when the Aces haven't won titles. You know, you think about last year, she was unanimous MVP when the Aces were eliminated in the semifinals and they were a four seed coming into the playoffs. So I think the one thing you can count on is the surrounding talent may go up and down, but Asia Wilson is Asia Wilson. And you know, she came into the league, a league that was, I think, set to be owned by Brianna Stewart for the next few years. And Stewie has, you know, to her credit, done her part right. She's won three titles, a couple MVPs. You know, put her stamp on the league in the process, but like Asia's just surpassed her, you know, like this was a player who came in, like she's got a lot of pedigree through USA Basketball. She was playing up in USA Basketball. Always a good indicator actually of players who were going to really shine as the ones who are playing up in USA Basketball. And she wins the national title in college, she's rookie of the year, right? When they move to Las Vegas. Just what perfect timing for the Aces to move to Las Vegas. Honestly, can you imagine Asia Wilson being marooned in San Antonio on the Stars? That would have just been such a waste of her personality and her talent. But yeah, I mean, she's just been consistently excellent and just gets better every single year. The Asia Wilson that we saw this season, box score wise, might be not as effective as she was last year, but like the things that she can do on the court, definitely more than what she was doing last season. And it's crazy to think that she's just in the middle of her prime, continuing to evolve and she's already maybe the greatest player we've ever seen.
- [07:13]
Ben Pickman
The thing that sticks out to me, and this is really a question I've been thinking about since Friday night, was if you were going to put a Vegas betting line on the number of titles that Asia wins from here on out. If I set that line at one and a half more titles, would you bet the over or the under in her career?
- [07:31]
Zena Keda
Over. Over.
- [07:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah.
- [07:34]
Ben Pickman
Right. So she's played eight seasons, she's won three titles. Rebecca Brunson currently is the WNBA's all time winningest player. She's won five titles. And think about the ease with which both of you just said over, like right off the bat. If you just throw two overs right there, that's two titles. She's ties Rebecca Brunson for the winningest player of all time. And you guys didn't even bat an eye about that happening. She's eight seasons in, she's 29 years old. Like who knows how long she is going to play. It's pretty remarkable. Just to put it in some perspective, just like that. The other thing I've been thinking about too, in terms of all time great winners, Chelsea Gray sitting there with four titles, right. She's an older player, older, you know, and, and we'll see how many years she has left and. But like could Chelsea Gray, could the Aces win two more titles in the next four years? I'm just really throwing things out and Chelsea Gray, like is a part of two of those and does she retire as the all time winningest player in WNB history? Like that was another just hypothetical that I was thinking about that I know I hadn't thought that much about during the series, but it is pretty remarkable when you put it in some perspective and you put it in some perspective about how much things have changed just over these last four or five years. Right. I mean, I think it was one of the questions that I asked Asia about throughout various points of the finals of what do you remember about your first finals appearance in 2020? And she used the word broken referring to being swept by, by the Seattle Storm. Think about how much has changed from that moment, not just broadly around the league, but in her own legacy, having won these three in the last four.
- [09:07]
Zena Keda
And then you think about the fact that Jewel Lloyd, that was part of that team that swept her now being a part of the win that she just completed Jewel Lloyd does not know.
- [09:14]
Sabrina Merchant
What it's like to feel broken in the finals at all.
- [09:17]
Zena Keda
Not even a little 100 in the finals, which I did not realize. I recently just saw a tweet that, you know, Sue Bird went 11 straight, which after losing her first series in the Finals. Unbelievable. Something about Seattle that I think, you know, obviously you think about dynasties. You mentioned Rebecca Brunson. This is now the question of the goat. And I'm thinking about Rebecca Brunson in connection to Maya Moore and people thinking about titles and accolades and racking them up. And of course, we know that Maya Moore had a much shorter career than we probably expected her to have. And now Asia Wilson's gonna play. She's playing it in her peak, in her prime, like, and she's so young still. We imagine she's going to have a much longer career than Maya Moore, and she's going to be able to rack up a lot more accolades.
- [10:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Asia's currently the age that Maya was when she stopped playing in wnba.
- [10:06]
Zena Keda
There you go. There you go. And she doesn't look like she's anywhere near stopping. She's added the three ball to her game this season. She's added. I mean, I don't know if she's really added more footwork. She already had tons of footwork, but she's added more. Even it looks like agility to her game at this point in her career. So, yeah, I absolutely think she's capable of that. Over one and a half. And what's interesting, though, to your second point, Ben, all of this is dependent on free agency. And I don't know if we've seen a free agency like this in years with this many veterans that are gonna be free agents, this many people that regardless if Vegas is able to try and keep their core together, you know, who's gonna be that surrounding cast? Aliyah Nye is the only person that is signed right now, I believe, to the Las Vegas Aces. That is crazy. So that, you know, you gotta think about what those type of elements are going to impact the Las Vegas moving forward, and how does Asia and her dynasty continue? I'm pretty sure you put on Asia on any team, she's going to kill it. But we'll see what happens.
- [11:04]
Ben Pickman
Can I just say, too, I mean, on that point of the trio, and I think I might have written this, but, you know, I think it's important to say as it relates to free agency. Nikki Fargas, who's the team president of the Aces, she told me and Sean heard of Antscape throughout the series like one that she's putting that trio up against anybody's else's all time in WNBA history. But she also said point blank that, you know, we want to continue to have those three. And she said, quote, there is no desire to do anything but do our best to make sure that we sign them back to the Aces organization. So, you know, if there was any question about who the Las Vegas Aces are targeting in free agency, it is to make sure that Asia Wilson, Chelsea Gray and Jackie Young are back with the team next year and I assume in subsequent seasons, knowing just how important they are to all the winning that has occurred over these last couple of years.
- [11:51]
Zena Keda
Oh yeah, Nikki Fargus knows who Zestner's child is. She knows. Let's keep the group together. All right, guys, we gotta take a break real quick because we're gonna talk about some of these trends that we saw over the course of the WNBA season.
- [12:07]
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- [13:47]
Zena Keda
So we spent all season long following the W and now it's time to zoom out and talk about the that stood out to us. The WNBA saw a significant rise of popularity and fan engagement during the 2025 season. Ben, you actually recently wrote about a new generation of fans embracing the W. Talk about this new generation of fans. We actually saw the perplexed face of one that I can particularly remember in Game three that kind of went viral of just a young boy in the crowd, just shocked at the comeback that Phoenix was making. This is not just that moment. We're seeing tons of younger boys, younger girls, new fans, all generations. But how has the league been able to capture this newfound audience?
- [14:31]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, there's really been an influx of Gen Z and younger millennial viewers coming into the WNBA's fan base over the last two seasons. And I heard about this on the site for the end of last week. One of those big groups over the last five years is Young Boys U18 Boys Under 18 Boys. The league has seen a plus 130% growth in that demographic in terms of national viewership since 2021. So that is obviously pretty sizable. And they've also seen a jump in young girls 18, girls 18 or younger watching the league. That has more than tripled, I guess, in 2024 alone, year over year. So that was the largest single increase for a particular age and gender bracket last season. That's a huge spike. And so, yeah, there's a lot more young viewers who are gravitating to the WNBA than ever before. And there are a number of reasons for that that I kind of dove into in this piece. I mean, the big one is obviously social media and social media connectivity. And we have just seen a lot of young people on social media, you know, gravitate to the content, to the accessibility to social media, serving as an entry point for, for these fans. That is a big thing. We've seen video games and sneakers, right? When you think about Angel Reese fronting the latest cover of NBA 2K, when you think about Sabrina Unescu and the popularity of her sneaker, just as an example, that's a big one we see for a slightly older audience. Sports gambling is another factor that draws in the attention of younger male audiences, that's a big thing. And one other new change that I think, you know, one executive at the WNBA pointed to that is really worth watching going forward is these kind of generational fans that the WNBA, as it nears 30 years of age, is starting to have fans whose, you know, younger fans whose parents might have been Fans of the WNBA in 1997, 98, 99, is the league was getting going. Some of those people now might be having kids who are, you know, seven, eight years old and getting into the wnba and they have their favorite players. And so that is one shift to really watch going forward. And it is part of this trend of, again, the influx of younger viewers and fans to the league more broadly.
- [16:39]
Zena Keda
When you're thinking about these new fans, Sabrina, I think sports gambling is a very particular way to interact with the league. But from what I'm gathering, this is basically saying it's cool to support women's sports, but particularly women's basketball. And it feels as if the way that they're engaging is not only just going to games, but they're commenting, they're reposting their favorite players. Like, how are you seeing folks engaging with this new audience with the W?
- [17:04]
Sabrina Merchant
I think social media is such a big part of it, because female athletes are just more accessible online, I think, than their male counterparts. And they're really good at using their online platforms to engage with their fans, to connect with their fans. You know, it's just they feel a lot more relatable, accessible than their male, you know, counterparts in professional leagues. And I think that's just been a big draw in terms of, oh, I feel like I can actually figure out who, you know, Asia Wilson is off the court or whoever it happens to be. I think that's a big part of it. Just the gains that we've seen in terms of that entry point in fandom. The gambling part truly scares me. I read a terrifying article the other day about men gambling on women's menstrual cycles.
- [17:40]
Zena Keda
Menstrual cycles, athletes, menstrual cycles. Yeah.
- [17:42]
Sabrina Merchant
Which you can gamble on anything, apparently. And the wnba, like most sports leagues, still has had historically male fandom. Right. The fact that younger generations are coming in is kind of new, but men following sports has always been part of it. And I hope that we're entering a. A period where, like, they're not just in it because you can gamble on these ridiculous prop bets, but they actually like the sport. And, you know, one of the fun things that we got to do with the finals when, when Ashley was there, was just, like, talk to some of the fans about why they were fans of the league and, you know, what got them into it, and it was just like, yeah, maybe it was Caitlin. But, like, now I really like enjoying watching Asia Wilson and, like, Paige Beckers is pretty cool too. And like I remember hearing about Cheryl Miller back in the day and like I live in Phoenix, she used to be a coach for our team. Like why not try to figure out who this, you know, franchise is here? So there's, there's a lot of different points and I think they're becoming a little bit more enjoyable, I would say a little bit more tasteful than some of the other ones back in the day.
- [18:35]
Ben Pickman
You know, I talked to the growth lead, I guess the growth strategy lead at the wnba. Katie Donovan is her name. And one of the points she made to me, and this didn't make the piece, is that the definition of what like the core fan is in the WNBA has changed. And by definition I mean like the literal kind of specifications of like you need to watch X amount of hours to be in the top, say 20% of like WNBA consumers, like that has changed over the last year or two that they're having to like redefine the actual terms of what does it mean to be a core and committed WNBA fan. That just speaks to again as you're talking about Sabrina the, the like wave of influx of interest and this era where things are changing so, so quickly. I thought that was like pretty interesting to think about when you zoom out. And you know, one of the things she talked about too is families. That is another key area that the league is looking to tap into and is they recognize as super important to the long term sustainability to the growth and success of the wnba. And we have also seen teams recommit resources like never before to drawing in young kids and drawing in families. I think for a long time. And we joked about it over the summer camp days were like the big bit, right? Like if you get a fan in, get a kid in an 8 year old to come during their day camp day in July to watch wnba. Like would that create a fan? And now we both see teams still doing that, but we see a lot more. We see the Dallas Wings. Since 2023 they've held 10 times as many camps and clinics as they previously hosted. Their practice facility is designed to have multipurpose spaces for youth programming. We see the Connecticut sun, they have a youth basketball platform. They had nearly 2,000 kids that they serviced this past year. That's up from 500 in 2021 and 2022. We see in Brooklyn Barclays or Brooklyn Sports and Entertainment, that's the parent company of the Liberty. They just opened this multi court youth basketball training facility across from the arena. Like that's Supposed to provide access to kids over time and create this, like, pipeline. Like, a lot is changing, and we have seen teams continue to invest in it. That is definitely one major positive trend off court from this year.
- [20:46]
Zena Keda
One thing I do love about the ways in which teams, particularly, it's usually for the purpose of selling tickets, but it's also for the purpose of providing experiences. They are very smart in the way that they categorize potential fans. The families is usually one bucket. Die hard fans is another bucket. And you can see this across sports. I remember we had these very similar buckets when I worked for the Miami Dolphins. But the other one that I think is particularly relevant for the WNBA is this social, cultural bucket of where it's like, it's cool to go to the game. I don't know what's going on, but it's fun to be at Barclays center on a Friday night, which it is. It is. By the way, guys, in case you didn't know, it is incredibly fun. But we saw it across the country, particularly Valkyries very much leaned into the fact that they found a way to sell out the arena based on tapping into all of these different buckets. And teens have been doing it for years. And I think it's just elevated another level because of what Sabrina mentioned. Accessibility, visibility. When you make it easier. Wow. Shocker. If it's available to see on television, maybe people will tune in. Surprising.
- [21:57]
Sabrina Merchant
I can't tell you how many times I talked to people about, like, watching the wnba. They're like, yeah, I only watch the national TV games. It's like, yeah, that's how people watch games.
- [22:04]
Zena Keda
That's how people watch.
- [22:05]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, that's the only way.
- [22:07]
Zena Keda
That's the only way. There you go. Well, another trend that's revolved around the league's exponential growth is the merch. And not just the merch that the WNBA is selling. It's the merch that's coming from the players themselves. Because we just talked about this trend and new viewership and new audiences. These new audiences are feeling connected to these players. And these players are showcasing themselves on social media in a way that you feel connected to their stories. And so when they're creating things, you want to buy it, you want to be a part of it. And one of those big things is player shoe deals. Now, it's been a while since Sheryl Swoopes became the first women's basketball player to have a shoe deal, but now there's been a ton over the course of the years. Ton. I'll say A dozen or few over the course of years, but now they're coming out in droves. This year alone, Asia had the most phenomenal campaign for her A1s, ending up obviously winning the WNBA Finals in them. Reebok launched the Angel Reese one's new balance with Cam Brink and Caitlin Clark's signature shoe. The Skechers did their big ones with Jackie Young and Rekia Brink and Lexi Brown, like Nafisa Collier with Jordan brand. Like, there's such opportunity now to get connected to a player through something that's actually useful out on the basketball court. Not just, you know, a makeup deal or a clothing deal or it's actual shoes that people want to wear. And we know the Sabrinas, Sabrina Jesu's shoe, the Sabrina ones, Sabrina Twos were tremendously successful. NBA players wore them just as much as WNBA players wore them. It was very, very popular in the shoe. But now that is just the blueprint. I mean, Caitlin Clark shoes are coming in 2026. People are super excited about that. Let's talk a little bit about these recent shoe deals and how it's elevated because of the branding of these WNBA stars. And what does it say for the league's commercial appeal?
- [24:00]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think it builds what we're just saying, like, shoes are another entry point for a younger generation of fans. Right? It is exactly that. It's Sabrina was saying to create this connectivity, to create the, I don't know, the recognition to build off a player's creativity when they're designing a shoe or when they're coming out with a player edition, which is the case of a lot of the players. You also mentioned Xena and gravitate to the player, to their brand, to their Persona. Like it is another. To me, it's just another one of those entry points that bridges the gap and draws in young viewers.
- [24:35]
Zena Keda
It's fair to say that Asia shoes, A1, she had player editions of those, but the A1s were her signature shoe from Nike. Reebok has their signature shoe with angel as Angel Reese ones. Whereas some players are getting brand deals with shoe companies like Skechers is having or like, you know, New Balance is having. But that is important to note. There's a difference between the signature shoe and a brand deal in which a player is wearing brand shoes. But I think that this could extend past the player's shoes. You're seeing new brands show up in the WNBA space that have never been a part and been a partner or a sponsor. Sabrina, you just talked about the fact that the WNBA stars do a better job, and I agree with this, in connecting with their fan bases through social media. They're technically more available. I would say they're more responsive online. And I think that that really probably shines bright in the minds of marketing managers all around the country. Of here are ambassadors available to us, not only rocking what we want them to wear, but also being able to talk about it, being able to showcase it, being able to tell the story around it. How are these deals, like player shoe deals, like player brand deals? How is this helping the league overall in terms of its commercial success and the viability of the league?
- [25:48]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right that, you know, if you're a marketing person, you're thinking, like, the best person I can get to sell my product is going to be a female like Gen Z Millennial, who knows how to use social media. And lo and behold, athletes comprise a big portion of that. And they. They've grown up on this. They know exactly how to get their messages across on social media and sell things. And, you know, I'm sure a lot of athletes are pretty good about staying off of the comment sections, you know, during the season when it would disrupt their actual play and performance. But they have managers, you know, they have people who are good at, you know, taking care of this stuff when they're trying to log off a little bit. But.
- [26:22]
Zena Keda
Right.
- [26:23]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think it just makes so much business sense to invest in WNBA players and NWSL players and just female athletes, all sports in this age, because, you know, a lot of them are now from the nil generation. They've grown up, you know, doing this for a very long time, like, selling themselves, selling products, you know, selling a story that goes along with all of it. And it just, it helps the WNBA when you see your players all across the spectrum, right? Like, you see them on billboards, you see them in ads for different products. Like, you see them just omnipresent, right? Like, just more visibility, as you said, turns people toward the league. And it's not just brands that are separate from the wnba. Right. Like, I just think about how much easier it is to get actual WNBA merchandise now than it was a couple of years ago. Remember we were talking about Candace Parker, like, not being able to find her Chicago sky jersey even after she won a championship.
- [27:09]
Zena Keda
Crazy.
- [27:10]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, the Aces made such a big deal of it that, like, oh, we have a team store now, and you can buy Candace's jersey right here when she signed with the team. And, like, I can't remember If I shared the story on the podcast. But I think about this all the time when like the Spark signed Alyssa Peely on a seven day contract and like literally three days later I saw somebody in an Alyssa peely jersey@crypto.com arena and it's like, that is unreal. Like, how is this possible for somebody to have this bit of merchandise? I mean, I wouldn't give it a second thought in the NBA, but it just hasn't been the experience of wnba. And so like when you are a fan, you want to, like Ben said, there's so many entry points, right? And one of those is like people like merch, people like jerseys. And it can be a turnoff when you're like, I'm trying to be a fan. And it's really hard, right? It's really hard to find their games. It's really hard to find things that help me support this team. And if you make that experience of being a fan easier, it just helps.
- [27:55]
Zena Keda
Keep people in lowering the barriers to entry guys. It's a very key business point that seems pretty simple, but apparently sometimes can be hard to execute. Now I'm, I'm gonna give the WNBA their credit for making jerseys more available. I'm gonna need them to work on their sizing available. Okay. Sometimes it's like you want a Stud Buds jersey and it's like the only available size is extra small. Am I speaking from experience? I don't know. We'll see. Anyways, let's shift to a trend that saw an increase in the 2025 season and that is a record number of international players on rosters. Now towards the midpoint of the season, there were 24 true international players that we counted. These are players that did not play in the NCAA that were born overseas. So we're not including the likes of like Satou Sabali, that was born overseas but played in Oregon, was able to be evaluated by, you know, WNBA scouts here in the States. I'm talking about players that were grown in, fed and developed in programs that we didn't know about. And everyone's, you know, waiting on Ben Pickman to write about them in order to find out what's going on with this player. These are true international players. Last year there were only 14. This is the most since 2005 based on that metric of players that did not play in the ncaa, that are from overseas, that have come over to play in the W, what's been the draw there? We know what's keeping American players, you know, stateside, especially with the change in the prioritization rule. But that's not necessarily the case for the international players. What's going on there for me, building.
- [29:29]
Ben Pickman
Off the conversation we were just having, it starts with entry points and kind of the cultural cachet of the wnba. Like I wrote this story at the, I guess beginning towards the beginning of the season about why there were more international players in the wnba. And one of the overarching reasons that that story hits on and talking to players and executives is just like more people are watching the WNBA and abroad. It is frankly just like cooler than it has ever been. And the perception of the league has changed drastically. Not only are players about to get paid more than they ever have before, and that is certainly a driver, but more fans are going to games. Arenas as a result are filling up. The environment in arenas are filling up. The experience of being a professional has totally changed. Think about travel, think about hotels, think about treatment, medical resources, all those things. As there is more investment and more eyeballs on the game, the experience of being a professional in the WNBA is very different than it has been. I think what is so telling, and this was, you know, more than the number you threw out, Xena, is that this season, at the start of this season, 18 players, international players, were in their first or second years, right? And so it's not only that there are more international players who are coming to the wnba, but there are more younger players. And that is a reflection of again, all these things. We've just been talking about that from the 18, 19, 20 year olds, 21 year olds, the league is getting younger because there's this influx of young international talent that has now, you know, as they've been progressed through high school or academies, thought about the WNBA in a way that a generation, 10 years ago, maybe didn't, right?
- [31:09]
Sabrina Merchant
Part of it's just there are more roster spots, right? Like there's another team that came in, you know, like there's more availability to actually like have a landing spot in the wnba. You know, training camp rosters are a little bit bigger. You actually have a chance to earn a spot on a WNBA roster during the regular season. And you know, you mentioned prioritization earlier, Zena. It's kind of had the reverse effect on international players because so many of them, like got to play against the best American players when they went overseas during the WNBA off season. Now that opportunity isn't there as often. So if they want to play against the best players in the league or the best players in the world, I should say you know, to develop their game to get better for international competitions. Like, they have to come to the WNBA to do that. And so WNBA like criticize its methods on how it got here is like exclusively the best talent in the world. And if you want to compete against these players, you have to come to the Wild.
- [31:58]
Zena Keda
I really want to give credit to the GMs that did a great job of developing the pipeline as well. Because it wasn't just Ben. You make a great point of like, there's younger players coming in. We saw basically Team France just come in and do damage on the WNBA this year with all their young players coming in. But, you know, Jonathan Kolb in New York and Nick Uren in Phoenix and Oheman Yanen and Golden State, like they were some teams that seem to have all of the international players available to them in their training camps and then they kind of dispersed from there. How much do you think that teams are going to be shifting to committing their strategies into seeking international talents, being more involved with these WNBA academies and just scouting overseas now that they've seen what these players can provide?
- [32:53]
Ben Pickman
Well, I'm just going to kind of. And I know this might have been a slight slip. These teams, you know, they're not developing the pipeline. They are tapping into a pipeline that other people have developed. And that is a key distinction about this era and what we're going to see going forward. Because frankly, a lot of WNBA teams still use international academies and international clubs as developmental training grounds pools for the wnba. Like that is what happened in the case of the Phoenix Mercury. Right? They were not drafting these players and necessarily right a la you, a la an NBA and an NBA G League team. They are basically looking at the world and saying who has developed over the last X number of years that we now can bring into our system. In New York, we've seen them utilize a lot of draft and stash players for that same reason. We might not have the roster spots. A lot of teams are saying to draft international player and bring them in. But we trust that if they play for X club or Y club or Z club in Europe, then they can develop and in two or three years we're going to bring them over. Like that is kind of the approach that a lot of teams have. That's not dissimilar to what we sometimes see in the NBA where, you know, you'll see a high draft pick who is a foreign player, get picked in the top five, top 10, and spend a year or two overseas before coming over. But that's a clear distinction right now in the wnba. I think a lot of teams are starting to increasingly recognize the talent that is out there, but there is still this push and pull about who is developing that talent and how early can we bring them in to our WNBA system.
- [34:32]
Zena Keda
I think it's worth saying, like, there is a difference between developing talent and developing the talent and developing the pipeline. Right? Like, yes, these teams are not developing the talent, but there are teams that are doing the work to find the scouts overseas to ensure that they've got people on their team. I think particularly about the Valkyries, Vanya Turnowitz, like, being a part of the NBA academies for so long and placing talent, having Ohamonyanen bring her on to her staff to be able to have that knowledge of what's available out there. Who should we be looking at? That does feel like a muscle. You have to flex for people to be like, yeah, go to the Golden State Valkyries or go to New York, to the New York Liberty or go to, you know, the Phoenix Mercury. That to me, I'm more impressed with the Phoenix Mercury because Nick Uren, Nate Tibbetts, like, that's a new duo in Phoenix. To be able to have brought in a Kathryn West Belt and a Monique Akwamokini like Alexi Held, like, they brought in a lot of talent that you're like, okay, like, this is impressive that you're already. That you've already developed a pipeline of talent to come in, not develop the talent. You see what I'm saying?
- [35:41]
Ben Pickman
Sabrina, do we feel like Nick deserves credit for bringing in those players or does someone else take the lead on that?
- [35:45]
Sabrina Merchant
So I feel like I wrote a lot about this during the regular season and I want to link that in the show notes. But just a couple of things here. One, I think these teams would quibble with the fact that they are not still developing the talent. Like a player like Monique Akwamikani who comes over from France, you know, and plays in the WNBA for her first season. Yeah, she is better than a natural undrafted free agent that you would get out of college. Sure. But her highest level of play in France was basically like Division 2 playoffs before she got to WNBA. So, like her getting to play against WNBA competition for 44 games and then go through to the WNBA finals, there is real development opportunity there that they believe that they are putting into her. Right. I think that's a big part of it. And then the second thing is, like, you just see these teams have so many more resources, like more front office people More money that they can use to actually travel overseas and watch these people play in person and get to know them in person. Right. Like, I remember Nate Tibbett saying during the offseason, like, these guys are getting tired of seeing me in person. I was there so often. And, like, that just wasn't the case before. Like, I'm thinking two years ago, like, the Sparks didn't have the infrastructure to send people overseas. Like, they were still doing zoom meetings with everybody. Right. Whereas Phoenix, like, they have all the statistical software to look at these players, but they also can san send Nate and Nick and like, their assistant general managers to Europe all the time to watch them play. And it's just the growing of the business. Right? Like, if you have more resources, you can expand your pool of potential players who could play in the wnba.
- [37:12]
Zena Keda
That makes a lot of sense. And I think that this is only going to get bigger as the WNBA's global footprint continues to expand. And, I mean, we're already seeing people are trying. I mean, this is a completely different topic for another day. But, like, Project B is a thing where they're trying to get a W, like league started internationally. People are seeing the benefit of bringing this game to other spaces around the globe. And having these international players as your ambassadors to the WNBA feels like it could only be a positive thing to continue to grow the awareness of the league. But I guess my question to you guys is, is it's great to be able to have all the international players come into the W and. And showcase how great the globe is at basketball and how the rest of the world is catching up. But how much does the WNBA kind of extend their tentacles out in terms of their marketing, the awareness that they're bringing to the rest of the world, utilizing these ambassadors and making sure that it's an even exchange. So it doesn't feel like everyone's going to the wnba, but there's nothing kind of coming back out.
- [38:21]
Sabrina Merchant
I don't really think they care about the exchange part of it, you know, like, this is the WNBA trying to grow its brand, you know? Yeah, they can talk about. About international footprint in terms of, like, putting games in Canada and maybe like a future game in Mexico. But I mean, if I'm an owner in WNBA or if I'm in the league office, like, I. I'm not terribly concerned with, like, people in Europe watching the league right now. Like, this is. You're trying to grow the product in your own sphere of influence, I would say. And if that means, like, you want Europeans to Come over. You want Australian players to come over, you know, from all over the world. Like it doesn't necessarily have to be a two way street, right? Like they're benefiting a lot more from the, the influx of talent.
- [38:59]
Ben Pickman
We also haven't seen. I mean, the WNBA has talked about wanting to continue to globalize. We're still waiting on and maybe Dominique Malanga is going to be that player, like international stars to really take over the WNBA right now. Over the last decade, the league has only had four all stars who were born outside the United States. We'll see if that changes. But in terms of where the talent is concentrated right now and how it has starred in the wnba, it is still very much American born talent compared to the NBA, which is obviously a whole different story.
- [39:30]
Zena Keda
Right. It's getting very global over in the NBA. But I think the, the Olympics showed us a lot for both sides, men and women's, just growth internationally and homegrown talent. Okay, let's keep it going with these trends. Sabrina. We feel as if the WNBA has elevated its talent. Right. Like we've seen some unbelievable stat lines. Earlier you mentioned Asia Wilson being dominant. Sure, her numbers weren't as good as they were last year, but there were some crazy stat lines that came out of this season. But overall it feels like things got a little bit more balanced this year. What are your thoughts on a trend around parody?
- [40:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think from a team perspective, you know, we're seeing just a little bit more of a concentration, like more of middle than there was in previous seasons. You know, I look at like WNBA team and I think a net rating of like plus five means you're like a pretty good team. You know, like a plus 10 probably puts you like a really good team, but plus 5 puts you as a pretty good team. And we had like five of those last year and only three this year with more teams. You know, I think there's just more of like decent teams, right. And then like you're sort of losing the, the really great teams. I find it just interesting that like even the teams that met in the finals this year, usually you get two teams that like have a plus 8 rating or like a plus 10 rating. And that's been the case for literally every finals of the last five, six years other than 2021, which is a weird season. You know, post pandemic, everybody is sort of figuring their stuff out. But like the Las Vegas Aces in the Phoenix Burger had net ratings of 3.9 and 3.2 during the regular season. So I Think it's just interesting that like we've, the WNBA has historically been this league where like you have dominant teams during the regular season who just continue that dominance into the playoffs, right? And that just wasn't the case at all this year. And maybe that's an exception. Maybe the Aces are just an exception that they're proving that there is a possibility to be a flip the switch team that you can muddle your way through half the season and then just figure it out in the second half. Like Marcus Thompson mentioned on our last podcast, they almost muddled their way through half the playoffs and then figured it out, right? So maybe Vegas is just like a historic playoff riser. They just get better every year because they have that ridiculous star power because they have a coach like Becky Hammond. But I do think it's interesting that just on the whole, usually the thing that I love about the WNBA playoffs is that it's not that there aren't any upsets, it's just that we get really good teams at the end of the season that are just Titans battling each other in the final game of the year. And this season we just, I think the Aces are a very good team. It's just they don't have the profile of what has been a great team historically. And I wonder if that's going to continue as the talent continues to dilute to more teams or if it's just a one year anomaly where, hey, Las Vegas took a little while to figure it out and we'll get back there next year. But just something that I keep an eye on.
- [42:12]
Zena Keda
Very interesting to note too. I kind of felt this exact same thing about the NCAA women's season. Right. In terms of thinking it's supposed to be the four number one seeds that are going to go straight through and that's it. That's where it's going to land. It feels like there's a little bit more parity across the board of women's basketball happening as talent just gets better and better and better. And you know, as Ginoriemma would say, you got more tennis ball kids that are more skilled and have put in a lot more drills over the course of their careers. And it just, it's interesting how that that is actually playing out and also spreading out of talent. That's going to be really interesting to watch in this free agency for the parody conversation. Which teams are going to be able to keep their core three, their big Three or whatever, and who's going to be able to attract talent to their teams? Okay, let's keep it moving to the last trend we want to talk about, Ben, and that is the midi mid range jumpers. Are they making a comeback?
- [43:09]
Ben Pickman
Well, I was really going to highlight floaters because I think that is the part that is really kind of making a comeback. It's also goes along the lines of the, the middle, Sabrina. It's building off this idea of the return of the middle because we saw that this year shots taken in the 3 to 10 foot range in the WNBA, per Basketball Reference, were up around 6% this year, year over year. And that's the biggest jump that we have seen in some time. Kind of excluding 2019 and 2020, which had this like very weird anomalous bubble season. And it is up almost 10% from a decade ago. And what we have seen too is that a lot of star players, some of the best guards in the league really are trying to refine this kind of shot over the off season. They recognize the importance of it. Think about Sabrina Ionescu, who, you know, in 2023, less than 15% of her shot attempts were coming in that 3 to 10 foot range. This year around 25% of her shots were in that range. Jackie Young is someone who throughout the finals it struck me just watching her, she very much feels comfortable with that kind of mid range floater. As she attacks the basket, she's able to stop on a dime. Around 27% of her shots were from that range. In her first year with Becky Hammond, that's up to almost 36% this year and she shoots almost 60% on such attempts. And we see a lot of these guards, the Odyssey Sims, the Dana Evans who are able to get downhill and stop and shoot over bigger players and that has become an effective tool. We've certainly seen three pointers continue to change and rise across the wnba, but I continue to have my eye on like these guards as they continue to get more and more skilled. They break people down off the dribble and they're able to stop and pop and float it over players. I think that is a real weapon and it's one of the big things that I'm curious if we're going to see going forward more on Caitlin Clark's game in particular because she is a player who, you know, we do not see that kind of shot with the same frequency as we do with some of the other players I just mentioned in her current repertoire. So that's definitely a potential area of improvement that I have my eye on as we look forward with her in particular.
- [45:07]
Zena Keda
I mean the floater aspect is so true. I was thinking about the Aces and just across the big three, Chelsea, Asia and Jackie and their mid range game, their ability to operate right between the free throw line to the low block, they're lethal. Whether it's Asia's turnaround jumper, whether it's Jackie Young penetrating the paint and getting up, or getting past her defender and getting right to the front of the rim, which is the hardest shot period to make because you have no angle to it. And then of course Chelsea Gray discontinuing her midi attack that we've known that she's always had. But I'm immediately thinking about Paige Beckers. I'm thinking about Courtney Williams. This mid game is coming back. I think it's making a comeback and that is very exciting because now 3 level scoring has returned. I love that it's been for a while. Two at the basket or three behind the line. Not much of that in between. So love that. Love these trends. All right, on the other side of this break, we're gonna close things out. We've got a game courtesy of Ben Pickman.
- [46:08]
Ben Pickman
AI.
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Life.
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Hey, I never felt this way before.
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- [47:35]
Zena Keda
All right, Ben, I'm gonna let you take it away here. You've got a game for the pod that is right.
- [47:42]
Ben Pickman
Cena. I think, you know, we've just talked about some trends that things that we've observed throughout this season and hopefully what I'm about to throw at both of you guys is stuff that you maybe have seen but you maybe have forgotten. It's basically anomalous stat lines. It's some of the most unusual stat lines that we saw throughout either the WNBA regular season or postseason. I'm just going to throw out some statistics basically and I want you to name the player who recorded this said statistic. Pretty simple, right?
- [48:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Pretty simple.
- [48:11]
Ben Pickman
Pretty simple. We'll test your memory here.
- [48:13]
Zena Keda
Pretty simple. We'll see, right? Exactly.
- [48:15]
Ben Pickman
I got a few to throw out. So round one is that in game three of the WNBA Finals, Dana Evans became one of just three players this season to foul out of a game in which she played fewer or less than 20 minutes. She did that. Cam Brink did it on September 1st. And then there were one player, there was one player who fouled out of a game playing less than 10 minutes per game or 10 minutes in this game rather. Any guesses on who that player was or any recollections of this pretty remarkable stat line? Just gonna test your memory.
- [48:51]
Sabrina Merchant
I feel like a big makes sense, you know, like they're in a lot of reactions.
- [48:55]
Zena Keda
I'm thinking Natasha Mack or like Temi Fagbenle or.
- [48:59]
Sabrina Merchant
I was thinking.
- [48:59]
Zena Keda
I don't think Temi did it though.
- [49:00]
Ben Pickman
Off the bat, the big is a good guess. I'm just gonna reveal this one because I don't think you guys going to get this one. Olivia Nelson Adota On July 27, she played nine minutes in a game. She had six fouls, one block and one turnover. This has happened just three times. Wow. This has happened. It happened against the Golden State Valkyrie. So Xena, you there?
- [49:22]
Zena Keda
You probably were thinking something. Yeah.
- [49:24]
Ben Pickman
So this is very rare. It's just happened three times and I think the last seven or eight years pretty remarkable. Okay, we're going to keep it moving. Three times this season players had six blocks in a game that is the most of any single player in a game this year. It happened three times. Alana Smith did it, Izzy Magbagor did it. And this player who did it in late August. Any guesses on who the last?
- [49:48]
Sabrina Merchant
Not Asia Wilson. Otherwise that would have been one of the answer choices. Okay, six blocks late August.
- [49:57]
Zena Keda
Why do I feel like it was a guard?
- [49:59]
Sabrina Merchant
You think it's like Layla Lacan?
- [50:00]
Ben Pickman
Yeah.
- [50:00]
Zena Keda
Or like Sinai Rivers?
- [50:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Sinai Rivers, Yeah. Can we just give like a dual guess? One of those Connecticut guards.
- [50:07]
Zena Keda
Sure. Yeah.
- [50:08]
Ben Pickman
It is not one of the Connecticut guards, but Xena, you're very close. It was a guard. It was actually ryan Howard. On August 29th, Ryan Howard became the first player in WNBA history to ever have six blocks and make six three pointers in a game. She had 24, five assists, four rebounds, and again the six six blocks against the Dallas Wings. A pretty remarkable shooting night and defensive night for. For Ryan Howard. Luckily, Ryan Howard. Yeah, there you go. Maybe that's why. Keeping it going. Four players this year had games in which you might need a pencil for this one in which they recorded three or more assists, three or more steals, three or more blocks, and had three or more turnovers. Four players with three plus assists, three or more steals, 3 or more blocks, and 3 or more turnovers. Ryan Howard did it. Asia Wilson did it twice. Paige Beckers did it once. And can you name the fourth player? Anybody got a guess?
- [51:08]
Sabrina Merchant
I feel good about my general 3Assists thought process here. I just keep losing the obvious names.
- [51:13]
Ben Pickman
And three or more turnovers.
- [51:15]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay, so we have Ryan. This gives me Paige and Asia De.
- [51:19]
Zena Keda
Erica statline, but I'm not sure.
- [51:23]
Ben Pickman
We'll count that. We'll count that as your formal guess.
- [51:25]
Sabrina Merchant
Sabrina, you have one, so probably not Derek.
- [51:30]
Zena Keda
Yeah, right. I know.
- [51:32]
Sabrina Merchant
Three plus assists, three plus steals, three. You know, I'm gonna go. Courtney Williams.
- [51:37]
Ben Pickman
Courtney Williams. A not terrible guess, but actually I was looking for Haley Jones. I was looking for Haley Jones who.
- [51:43]
Sabrina Merchant
Did it against the Golden State stats against the Dallas Wings.
- [51:47]
Ben Pickman
Well, this was Dallas Wings against the Golden State valley. She had 18 7, 5, 3, 3 and 3 in early September.
- [51:54]
Zena Keda
That was like their last game right.
- [51:56]
Ben Pickman
Against towards the end of the season.
- [51:58]
Zena Keda
A pretty remarkable game because I think I hugged her mom on the way out of the gym and it was like, holy crap, Haley was really good tonight.
- [52:05]
Ben Pickman
What a game. All right, we got two more for you. Two more for you. And then we will wrap up some of the craziest stat lines that we have seen this season. And if anyone wants more, feel free to tweet at me. I have a few more of these saved in my notebook that we will not be using. This is a game as a question. Only number one picks are the answer in this one. So I want the number one pick this year who had the highest plus minus in any game this season and the highest, and it happened to be the highest number plus minus of any game since 2017 for a number one pick. Does that make sense? I think I just jumbled that a Lot.
- [52:42]
Sabrina Merchant
Only number one picks. Yeah. Highest plus minus in the game this season.
- [52:44]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. Yes.
- [52:46]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay.
- [52:47]
Ben Pickman
Was a plus 44. We'll give that to you.
- [52:49]
Zena Keda
Jesus. Paige.
- [52:51]
Sabrina Merchant
Paige could not have been a plus 44. Dallas.
- [52:54]
Zena Keda
Oh. Oh, that makes sense. No. Yeah. They lost that game. Nevermind. Think about it. Okay. I'm just thinking about the.
- [52:59]
Sabrina Merchant
Really embarrassed if it ends up being Paige, but I can't imagine it was Paige in a Dallas game.
- [53:04]
Zena Keda
No plus 40.
- [53:06]
Sabrina Merchant
I feel like it's Jackie Young, number one.
- [53:08]
Zena Keda
Well, who do they.
- [53:09]
Ben Pickman
Xena just made a face for all the listeners at home. No, no, no.
- [53:13]
Zena Keda
I'm. I'm just thinking. I'm trying to think of like, who when that would have been, but that.
- [53:18]
Sabrina Merchant
You're right. They didn't have a lot of big wins.
- [53:20]
Zena Keda
Yeah, they didn't.
- [53:21]
Sabrina Merchant
No. No, they did not. Okay, well, what are our options here? We've got Jewel. Yeah, right. Stewie. Asia. I'm forgetting the 2017 number one pick. Who was the 2017 number one pick? Kelsey.
- [53:36]
Zena Keda
Kelsey. It was Kelsey.
- [53:37]
Sabrina Merchant
Probably not Kelsey. Not plus 44 in a Sparks game.
- [53:40]
Ben Pickman
Caitlyn. Ryan Howard. Aliyah. Boston.
- [53:43]
Zena Keda
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [53:46]
Ben Pickman
All right, final guesses. We got to keep this. Jack Young. This player is actually. Brianna Stewart is who I was looking for. Brianna Stewart on June 1st when the New York Liberty beat the Connecticut Sun 100 to 52. Remember way back in June, there was a game that was rivaling the biggest up. Yeah, exactly.
- [54:08]
Zena Keda
I remember that. Yeah.
- [54:09]
Ben Pickman
23 minutes. She had just 13 points, points, five assists and three rebounds. And she was a plus 44. All right, last one.
- [54:17]
Zena Keda
That's crazy.
- [54:17]
Ben Pickman
Very simple stat here. This is a player who had the most rebounds in a game this season in which she did not score. Spoiler. She was also the only player to have more than 10 rebounds in a game in which she did not score this season. It is the same game.
- [54:32]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm going over five here, Zena.
- [54:34]
Zena Keda
I feel it, right? I'm like, dang. Did not score. Like, I can't imagine Bree Jones not scoring. I'm not. I feel like this might be a Valkyries player.
- [54:46]
Ben Pickman
Well, I'm just gonna call time on this one because that's not a terrible guess, but you guys have gone over five in this game. This player, Kia Stokes, went 0 for 5 in this particular game. Kia Stokes, 14 rebounds. 14 rebounds in 29 minutes in a Vegas loss to the Mercury on June 15th.
- [55:09]
Sabrina Merchant
They're only lost to the Mercury all season.
- [55:11]
Ben Pickman
There you go. I brought it all the way back to the finals, everybody. That is what that was an intentional choice to close this one out because you know, I had to start with Phoenix and the Aces and we will round it out this episode with Phoenix.
- [55:24]
Zena Keda
Well done, Ben. Well done. You completely stumped us. I don't know if anyone listening if you did better than us, leave us the review.
- [55:31]
Sabrina Merchant
Leave the comments.
- [55:34]
Zena Keda
We that was, that was rough, but it was a good. I love that game. That was a lot of fun.
- [55:37]
Sabrina Merchant
That was fun.
- [55:39]
Zena Keda
Well, that's all we got for you guys today and we will be back on your feet on Friday with more of the W's major off season content. Wherever you're listening, please follow our show and if you're watching on YouTube, subscribe, do your job, tell your friends to check us out and while you're at it, give us a rating and keep the bad ones to yourselves. We don't need to hear all that. Drop a comment. We love to hear from you. And of course head on over to our partner, the Yahoo Sports Hub for More content@sportstheyahoo.com Womens sports on behalf of the Athletic Ben Pickman, Sabrina Merchant, I'm Zena Kaeda thanking you for listening. We'll see you next time. No off season is hosted by Zena Keda with Chantel Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.
- [56:54]
Blue Apron Advertiser
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- [57:25]
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- [58:00]
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