← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Travel Troubles in the WNBA
00:45:06
Zena Keita, Ben Pickman and Sabreena Merchant explore the complex issue of travel for WNBA teams--laying out the existing policy, the impact on players, and the possibilities for a resolution.
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- [00:01]
Sponsor Voice
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- [01:20]
Zena Kaeda
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- [03:22]
Sabrina Merchant
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- [03:42]
Ben Pickman
There to watch them.
- [03:43]
Sabrina Merchant
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- [04:58]
Zena Kaeda
For.
- [04:58]
Ben Pickman
The Athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by Michelob Ultra. Welcome back everyone and thank you for tuning in. We at the Athletic Women's Basketball show appreciate all of the love and support you all showed across the platforms on X on Instagram, all the above and for the feedback. We appreciate all the messages letting us know that we're amazing that's what we try to do. So thank you. We want to make this show as useful, informative, and of course, entertaining as possible. So please keep the feedback coming. We want to talk about what you want to talk about. So on our last episode, I left off discussing the issue of travel and how it is one of the biggest problems facing the league that stem from an ESPN survey done with the WNBA players who were asked what the number one issue facing the league was. I also mentioned that the Athletic had done our own survey. You know, we gotta do it on our own. We gotta get our own information, get our own facts. And we did our own survey of the league with even more players. And it seemed like the focus on travel continued to be an issue. It continued to ring true. So today I want to dive into this topic of travel amidst the wnba, especially as we prepare for a travel heavy playoff matchup series. It's going to be a recurring issue. It is a major issue, and it's a complex issue that merits a deeper discussion. So joining me today to help us with that discussion, welcome Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman, national at WNBA Writers for the Athletic. Welcome, guys.
- [06:45]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah. Excited to be back.
- [06:46]
Sabrina Merchant
Thanks for having us back. Cena.
- [06:49]
Ben Pickman
Hi, guys. I know you're gonna be back. I don't even know why I welcomed you as if you're not gonna be just a part of this. Like, you're here. This is your home. I'm so happy you're here because this is a big conversation to have. Everyone's been hearing the roster conversation, the team expansion conversation, and we've lightly been talking about the travel conversation, but there's not enough context as to why this is an issue because it seems like figuring out planes doesn't seem that hard. But it's deeper than that. So let's dive in. Let's make sure we lay out the foundation for everyone to understand what's going on so that we can potentially start talking about solutions and where we can go with this. Sabrina, I'm gonna start with you. Can you lay out going into this season, what was the current WNBA travel policy and what's new this season from the past?
- [07:38]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So as most people know, the WNBA doesn't fly charter, but there were some exceptions made to that rule entering the 2023 season. So first of all, each team was given the opportunity to fly charter on one back to back during the regular season. So if you play on a Thursday night, then also play on a Friday night, you can use a charter to go from point A to point B and considering how challenging back to backs already are, like NBA teams complain about them so much. The fact that WNBA teams were doing them while also flying commercial and basically getting into your city the day of the game after having flown with hundreds of other people, that was an enormous change that the WNBA provided. I know at the start of the season, the Los Angeles Sparks had a back to back between Phoenix and la, which is an easy enough flight. But even then, Kurt Miller said they would not have been able to win that second game in LA had they not been able to sleep in their own beds, you know, the previous night and gotten all the rest to play that second game. So that was the number one change. And then Kathy Engelbert also said that all post season flights would be chartered. So in previous years, you know, the WNBA had chartered flights for the teams in the finals, but not for the entirety of the postseason. Though there were a couple of exceptions made this year. Three rounds of the post season, all of those flights are going to be chartered.
- [08:51]
Ben Pickman
I know that Kathy Engelbert has mentioned how much has been spent before on charter flights. So for those listening about how much is the WNBA spending on these charter flights a year?
- [09:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So I think she said that the current amount based on all of those charters that we just discussed is $4 million for the WNBA this year. And she has also said that if the WNBA were to charter flights for every game, it would cost the league $25 million.
- [09:17]
Ben Pickman
Okay. Not an insignificant amount of money. Cool, cool, cool. So that does seem positive though. It seems like, all right, they're thinking about the back to backs, thinking about the recovery time, also thinking post season, because we know the postseason is going to be crazy going back and forth. Why does that not seem to be the case in terms of publicly, the players don't seem satisfied with that. Why is travel continuing to be the number one issue facing the league?
- [09:44]
Zena Kaeda
Well, I mean, they're still flying economy plus, like at its core, like in the CBA players still. And teams have to book their players on economy plus flights. And if you want to fly something like first class, which we have seen in the past, and a number of these players have done this in the past, you have to pay out of pocket for your own first class ticket. So that is just at its core one of the main issues. Economy plus versus first class versus versus charters. There is one other change though that they've also made and Sabrina made out two of the big ones. But in other kind of developments this season, the league also allowed the use of A public charter operator this year for the first time, a company called jsx. And basically what JSX is is it is a public charter operator. So any person, any layperson, myself, Euzena, Sabrina, anyone can buy on JSX and basically you get a private like experience. The planes have around 30 seats. It's all one by one seating. It has a separate gate, but it only flies at a certain number of markets, in and out of a certain number of markets JSX does. So they fly out of Phoenix, Las Vegas, Dallas, the Los Angeles area and Westchester county in New York. So not everywhere. But the WNBA did allow teams to use JSX this year and that has been, I think a positive change. Though the amount that teams have actually taken advantage of that service has varied and I know it's one of the things we'll get into later. The league did not allow teams to create what's called pop up routes and kind of use JSX flights and fly in markets that they don't traditionally fly in. So that is one of the complications still, again, a step forward, right. I think a lot of the changes this year as Sabrina touched on small steps, positive changes in the right direction, but they're kind of amendments to eventually try and change the charter policy overall than just kind of an overhaul. Right now at the start of the.
- [11:34]
Ben Pickman
2023 season, you're talking about the semi private experience of JSX. And yes, these are pro athletes. Of course no one wants to be bothered when you're going from your gate to gate as a regular human that is not famous. I don't want to be bothered going from gate to gate. But I can only imagine if you're well known women's basketball player and you've got your gear on and you clearly look like you're a team, there's going to be fandom, there's going to be people going around wanting to know more about you. But there was particularly an incident that happened earlier this year with a very high profile WNBA player that was, for lack of better word, I won't. It wasn't just bothered, harassed. Can you explain a little bit more about why that particular incident and what the incident was and why that particular incident has really stoked the fire around the travel issue?
- [12:21]
Zena Kaeda
Sure. I mean one of the reasons why the travel conversation was kind of reignited or came up again early in the season is there was this incident as you mentioned, involving Brittney Griner. We all certainly know the context surrounding Brittney Griner. What happened to her involving Russia, her detainment, and her eventual return back to the United States. But earlier this June, Griner and the Phoenix Mercury were traveling on a commercial airlines from Dallas, where they had been playing, to Indiana, where their next game was scheduled to be played, where a man who the WNBA initially called we'll call a social media figure and provocateur. That was the WNBA statement. The words they used approached and shouted insults at Griner. You know, one of Griner's teammates, Brianna Turner, kind of first made note of the incident on Twitter. She called it very alarming, very startling just to have people waiting at your gate to totally disrupt your day. So that is kind of the genesis of this incident. And it mapped out exactly what you said, right? Just someone in a airport who had a ticket or at least had gotten through security, saw Brittney Griner, saw the Phoenix Mercury, and kind of approached Brittney Griner. One other change that did occur this year in terms of travel is teams have been traveling with additional security. That is something else that has been new this year. And that is a step that, again, a lot of players and teams around the league say was a step in the right direction, a positive change. However, you know what? The situation involving Brittney Griner further emphasized was just that her condition and knowing what she has gone through kind of warranted special consideration. It kind of further ignited the conversation both around her and around the league more broadly.
- [13:55]
Ben Pickman
And also beyond the concept of privacy, there also is a health aspect of why players need these flights and be able to travel and get to their games earlier. Sabrina, you just mentioned how the Sparks basically said we would not have been able to win that game had we not been able to sleep on our own beds and be able to recover. Satus Ablou called this out earlier this year that the travel time between games is just as important, and called out the WNBA for not prioritizing the health of their players in that way. Both of you have covered all the teams and you've traveled across the country. You've heard these crazy stories. Sabrina, what is probably the worst travel story you've heard for a team?
- [14:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I think it would have to be in 2018 or 2019 when the Las Vegas Aces and the Washington Mystics actually had to cancel a game because the Aces got into Washington probably three hours before the start of the game and did not feel comfortable with their bodies to actually be able to play given the, you know, 24 hours plus of travel that they had to endure just to get into Washington. We've heard multiple other stories of teams being delayed and having to sleep in airports for the night. That happened to the Sparks earlier this season. You know, a couple of players this season have said that with the increased schedule, right. Like the WNBA moved to 40 games this year as opposed to 36 games last year. And with more games means more flights. And if you've tried to travel recently, you know that it seems like there are fewer available flights going to the destinations that you want. And that means that it's just harder to find appropriate timings that work for the games. You know, that the players are playing. And Covid's on the rise again. I think we saw a bunch of players entering health and safety protocols within the last two weeks. Like, it's been a dramatic jump from the start of the season. So literally talking about the health of the players if they're on planes with a bunch of other people. So yeah, there's just a lot of different variables that enter, you know, the conversation when you're talking about public flights that just aren't there when you're on a plane with only 30 of your own people.
- [15:46]
Ben Pickman
Right. What about you, Ben?
- [15:48]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, one other thing that I think a lot of people, at least in the public, kind of underestimate and Sabrina touched on this a little bit, is that anytime or not anytime, but most times when you don't see the WNBA team you route for on your schedule, they are probably traveling, Right. There are very few true off days in the WNBA calendar. There are a lot of off days kind of built in or when a team will say, you know, we're not conducting team activity today, we're not practicing, we're not conducting shoot arounds. But oftentimes those days are travel days. Right. If you see a team play in New York on a Tuesday night and they don't again play till Friday night, you know, they're going to spend Wednesday very likely flying back to their home city. That is a travel day. You know, it might be an off day from basketball activity. Maybe they'll do some rehab or something when they get back to their respective city. But unlike in some other leagues, they're not flying out in many instances the night of that game once it concludes. Sometimes teams do that. Absolutely. But you know, oftentimes teams fly the next day or they might take an early morning flight or a bus to a flight depending on where they are playing. And so this notion, not only is it a more condensed schedule, but you also don't have as many true off days to just rest and Recover. So that is one of the other effects of not having charter air travel is just that you're spending, you know, again, a full day in an airport or four hours or six hours or eight hours going through security, going through air travel the same way any layperson would. And again, as anyone knows who travels for business or travels for pleasure, like travel days weigh on you. Travel days are not rest days. Like, you have to build them into your PTO or into your vacation. But, you know, when you leave a beautiful island or a beautiful place or you're coming back from your summer trip in Europe or wherever you went and you have to travel back, you know, that day, you view that day a little bit differently than you do the rest of your trip. Right? And that is the same thing in WNBA players, travel days, not necessarily off days.
- [17:39]
Ben Pickman
And I think that there's a lot of, you know, if you're a lay fan of the wnba, there's not an appreciation for that. Right. There's not a real sense of, oh, they're not coming off of it. Like in the NBA, for example, at the other side of the house, there's not a we got off the court, we've gotten to the showers, we're going on the bus, and we're going straight to a plane to take off. And then once we get to the next location, we may have a little bit more time in the hotel to chill out, et cetera. There is none of that. It is truly another workday of travel for them and then immediately off. I cannot imagine. Now, don't get me wrong, in college, we definitely had some days where we got off the bus and had to play. Hated it. That wasn't usually the plan, but I just remember how stiff and cold and just terrible you felt going immediately on the court. And I can only imagine if you're a player with some wear and tear on your body because you've been playing for years at a pro level, that is the worst way to start a basketball game. Mentally, physically, all of the above. That just. Yes. Horror story, Sabrina. That sounds awful that these players, you know, had to experience this. So I am curious. It did sound like, all right, some of these things have been positive, but as you've explained them more, it seems like there's some caveats to it that obviously makes it not as beneficial as it seems. Sounds like it could be. So it's progress, but not the progress. Clearly, the players need. What has been done to try to address it that maybe hasn't been explored more. Was shut down like what are some of the solutions that have been thrown out there?
- [19:15]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, I mean, there are a few. And not to plug our own work at the Athletic, but we'll do this a lot on this podcast. You know, hey, no shame.
- [19:21]
Ben Pickman
No shame.
- [19:22]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, we covered this in some depth last month. I had some conversations with more than a dozen players, as well as WNBPA head Executive director Terry Jackson and also Kathy Engelbert, the WNB commissioner, about some of this topic. On the topic of travel, for those.
- [19:37]
Ben Pickman
Of you that don't know, Terry Jackson is Sharon Jackson Jr. S mom of the Memphis Grizzlies. So she firsthand knows what's going on on the NBA side, and I'm sure that probably feeds into some of the ideas that she's had. Sorry, go ahead, Ben.
- [19:49]
Zena Kaeda
It's a good point. There are two proposals that I want to touch on, but one thing first, just as context and we'll get into the proposals. What Terry told me and what she said is that the wnbpa, their line is not all teams must be flying charter and that needs to be a requirement. She stressed this. What she said explicitly is what we've asked is to the league, and I'm quoting, eliminate the prohibition on charter so that teams that are able to do it can do it, I. E. In other words, choice, like give teams the optionality, give teams the choice to say, okay, if we want to fly a certain route or a certain day or a certain charter a certain amount of times, we can do that. Not saying we need, you know, 20 charter flights for all the road games and all the postseason, that needs to be a requirement, full stop, but just again, like we're trying to do here, provide some nuance. She's providing and the pa, you know, in her mind, in her words, is trying to ask for a little more nuance, gray area flexibility rather in creating their itinerary. So then they've sent a number of recent proposals. One, this past off season built off this idea of choice that she wanted, basically phased in travel. And this is something we've seen a little bit in the MLS in recent years. But basically the WNBPA proposed a plan to phase in charter travel permitting teams. In their mind, this is what they proposed, up to three regular season charter flights that they would use at their disposal. Basically, if you wanted to fly New York to Las Vegas on charter or Atlanta to Seattle on charter, and it wasn't a back to back and the schedule otherwise dictated it, that teams would have the choice to do that and that over time, the WNBPA hoped that that would gradually increase in future years. Now, the wnba, they turned down that proposal. And explaining their decision to do so, Kathy Engelbert kind of cited that $4 million investment that Sabrina talked about earlier in the year. So that was one recent proposal. Another proposal dealt a little bit more specifically involving the NBA and the NBPA and the WNBA and kind of merged the two entities in some respects. And what that proposal said was that the WNBPA asked the NBPA to put forward a proposal that would have repurposed a portion of the NBA players annual fine and suspension money, which for those who don't know, normally goes to charitable organizations and use it to fund two WNBA topics matters. One, it would have defrayed some costs of charter travel, and two, it would have helped reimburse current players and what they hoped would be overtime retired players for a few mental health visits per year, which insurance may not always cover. Now, that money, Terry Jackson said was only going to be around a million to a million and a half dollars per season. She said the NBPA leadership was for that. You know, the money typically goes to the NBA PA foundation and NBA Cares. The PA's line on this was that in their overall budget, it's not a lot of money, they can still do great work, and that it would kind of be a first step in creating some accountability that other companies would see. You know, what the, the NBA, what the foundations are doing, where this money is coming from, and they would act accordingly. Again, Kathy Engelbert said she didn't ignore the proposal, but that she viewed it as not a good narrative to kind of take money from those organizations.
- [23:05]
Ben Pickman
I don't know, man. That sounds like a good idea to me. I mean, the money's being spent, people are getting texts, people are getting thrown out. Why not help people get to their games if that's what's happening here? Interesting. I mean, I get, and I've said this before, I understand the WNBA not wanting to look like a charity and also not want to take, quote, take from charity. However, at this point, when it's talking about player health and safety, it might be worth rethinking and, you know, taking a little bit of a pill for that pride and being able to look at that and say, what can we prioritize over the narrative, essentially, but interesting. All right, sorry. That's the idea that I'm like, I don't know, I may want to revisit that one. But keep going.
- [23:52]
Zena Kaeda
Well, those were the two main proposals that were Thrown out. I think there's another question that comes up and maybe, Sabrina, you want to talk a little bit more about this, too, just about what happened with the New York Liberty a few years ago. And when we talk about choice and how they use charters, do you want to dive into that context and then I can circle back to some other ideas?
- [24:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So in the second half of the 2021 season, when the WNBA was still operating under the same roles that it is now, a prohibition on charter flights, the Liberty, decided under the leadership of Joe Tsai, you know, who owns the team, and the Brooklyn Nets as well, has a significant amount of spare change at his disposal that he is going to charter the team for the second half of the season. So Liberty, all of their games on the second half of the 2021 season took charter flights, and they even ended up taking a charter flight to Napa for a team event during part of the year. That's what showed up on Instagram and sort of what sparked a lot of this discussion about how are the Liberty getting here? Regardless, that's what they did.
- [24:47]
Ben Pickman
I was wondering how they got caught.
- [24:49]
Sabrina Merchant
That's what they ended up doing. And it wasn't hugely successful. Ben, I believe you wrote on this. At some point they did not win a ton of their games during the back half of the season, but the league did fine them $500,000. And apparently there was even more discussion about potentially more punitive, you know, punishments, because it was in just blatant violation of what the league's policy is, and they wanted to discourage anything like that going forward. And I mean, like the record of the Liberty during the second half of the season is so interesting to me because like I said, they didn't do particularly well even when they were being chartered. And yet when Kathy Engelbert talked about charters during her all Star press conference this year, it wasn't so much like, oh, we don't have the money to support all of this. It's a competitive disadvantage for the teams that can't charter and all of the things that WNBA teams can do to provide advantages for their own players, like the Las Vegas Aces having their own dedicated practice facility and the facilities that the Indiana Fever and the New York Liberty and the Phoenix Mercury all have that are far superior to teams that aren't associated directly with NBA teams. You know, there are other ways of providing competitive advantage beyond charter, as we noted, from a team that flew charter to all of their games and still had a dramatic losing record during the second half of the season. So it's interesting that how we're choosing to frame the charter debate, right. The players are framing it as a health and safety issue, right. They're saying that our bodies are not prepared for the wear and tear of this schedule if we cannot travel in a more accommodating way. And the league is framing it more as, oh, it's a competitive balance issue, it's a monetary issue. And I think that's an interesting disconnect.
- [26:27]
Zena Kaeda
And what you know, from the player's perspective, the PA's perspective, what they would also say is that is why both of those perspectives are, can be valid at the same time. Absolutely. And that is why they, I think, are pushing for choice and optionality, right. That, you know, give a team the ability to decide how often they want a charter, if they want a charter. Right. That is kind of something that happened involving JSX in the Las Vegas Aces earlier this year where they tried to create some pop up flights, as I mentioned. And there was a memo kind of clarifying that said, you know, this is not allowed. You know, Sabrina just talked about the situation involving the Liberty a few years back. Again, a question of choice, right? That they made a choice and they were punished because it was a violation of the rules. But you know, some owners in the league and teams would say, and the PA is certainly saying that we want to give teams the ability to say if we want a charter five times, eight times, times, ten times, or one time, you can make that choice on your own accord. The same way that if you want to build a 64,000 square foot practice facility or practice somewhere else, that is a choice you can make as a team. If you want to hire, you know, a huge performance staff, if you want to fly at 2 o'clock in the afternoon or if you want to fly at 6am, like these are all choices that could make a difference. Just trying to provide optionality and choice. That is kind of one of the big positions from the PA that circles around this kind of charter conversation.
- [27:49]
Ben Pickman
There's a great point about, you know, how this is being framed and the disconnect between what the players are thinking and the league is thinking. And it does seem like no matter how much the WNBPA is trying to portray that to the league, how the players are looking at this, it just seems like money seems to be the thing, competitive disadvantage. I mean, obviously, Sabrina, the example you just gave with the Liberty completely trumps that. That's not a thing. And in comparison to other things like having better facilities, having better Training staff, et cetera. So I'm curious for the league to continuously frame it as it's really expensive, does it just come down to money? Like, what is it going to take? Kathy Engelbert has also mentioned that if the WNBA gets a better media deal, then this could open up the door for better opportunities around charter. Is it that simple? Is. Does it come down. We just need more money.
- [28:43]
Sabrina Merchant
So, Ben, I know you and I have discussed this offline a little, but part of it seems like the WNBA is just keeping travel in their back pocket as a bargaining chip in the next set of CBA negotiations. The wnba, Pennsylvania can opt out of the current CBA at the end of the 2024 season, which would mean that they would be negotiating for a new CBA the following year. So, you know, there's obviously a lot of issues at stake for both sides, not just charter. I know the players said that travel was their most important issue, but there's a lot of other things on the table. And, you know, the league needs to have something in its back pocket to give the players in order to extract other concessions. Like, we saw this in the 2020 CPA negotiations, where the players were able to receive significantly increased compensation, but they had to concede to this prioritization rule, you know, which ensures that they play in the WNBA more than they play overseas. So it's all part of the bargaining chips, right? I think that's one of the things. I know, Ben, correct me if I'm wrong, but there have been proposals to subsidize charter for, like, three years at a time. But Kathy Engelbert wants something that's more sustainable so that, you know, three years come up and the WNBA isn't just, like, holding its hands thinking, how are we going to do charter in this next season?
- [29:50]
Zena Kaeda
Right? And they can broker, you know, side agreements at any time, even in the current contract. Right. There have been topics that the PA and league have worked together on in the past. You know, one of the most notable in recent memory was, is the wubble season, right? Like the kind of health and safety requirements that went into that year. You know, a lot of those rules and regulations had to be mutually agreed upon by both parties. So that did not occur, you know, in a normal CBA cycle, but because of the extenuating circumstance that was the COVID 19 pandemic in the summer of 2020. You know, those parties came together and did what they had to do. So in theory, there's nothing stopping any kind of similar agreement at this time. You know, for next year. And we saw even the league make some changes ahead of this season. So it's not like they haven't actually made some changes and just said firm on the document that was signed and when the most recent CBA was. But yeah, I mean, this new CBA negotiations is going to come up soon. It will be a really hot topic. It will be one of the issues I expect. And certainly that poll from ESPN revealed that players care about. It also coincides with potentially new TV deals. And so a new fund, a new influx of money coming in from potentially new network partners, from streaming partners, if the league gets a really big deal. And this is one of the things that, you know, Kathy Engelbert really stresses that a new TV deal could have a significant, significant impact on the future of the league in many facets. One of the biggest ones being charter. You know, if they get more money, this is just a, it's just like a business decision. It is math that you have more money coming in and suddenly you can devote more money to travel and to charter airplanes. Now, again, that doesn't necessarily. Why does a billionaire, now, someone like Josiah Mark Davis, not have the choice to, you know, fly their team's charter? Like, it doesn't answer that question. But that is kind of the league's position that this new potential influx of money could lead to some more changes on the travel front. There is one other subsection of players that I think often gets overlooked in this conversation that I think is important to at least spend a little bit of time on, and that is international players. They are often the players who I would frankly say have it worse off in this conversation. Right. So earlier this year, at the start of the year, the WNBPA has a partnership with clear, the kind of private security service that a number of people just lay purple. You know, I could have, you could have seen. I don't know if anyone on this, on this podcast, I don't know if any of you guys have it, but.
- [32:10]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm more check though.
- [32:13]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, right.
- [32:14]
Zena Kaeda
So in the cba, players who are eligible get global entry, which also entitles you to pre check. So players can get pre check. You also, because of this PA partnership, if you are eligible, can get clear. However, international players are not eligible to get clear, nor are they eligible for TSA PreCheck. So what often happens in the case of international players is as 10 players might go through the expedited security lines. You're one or two international players, they have to go separately, they have to wait in line you know, they wait, you know, as if you're traveling with your family. You know, if one of your, your siblings doesn't have it, maybe you're getting in line at the Starbucks first. Right. Because you have expedited security. It is literally the same thing with WNBA players that some international players are just used to lagging behind the rest of their teammates just because of where they are from and because that they are not eligible to get some of the expedited security services that some of their American born teammates can. Charters would fix that. There isn't a great fix without charters, but that is one area that charters would also fix and would help in a big way.
- [33:24]
Ben Pickman
Whoa. I did not even think about that. I mean, I hated whenever I took a group trip and one person in the group didn't have blue check. I'm just like, you are the weakest link. You are holding us back. We could be at the gate already chilling, eating and yeah, here's Maureen Johannes. I love talking about her. But anyways, just at the gate because she's French and having to wait. Wow, I did not think about that. And yes, you're right. If you're on a private plane, you don't have to think about that.
- [33:53]
Zena Kaeda
Nina Milic and Dorca Juhas, both of the Minnesota Links, they joke that they're like airport buddies. Both of them just travel together. They go through security together. They're used to it at this point.
- [34:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, the Aussies on the Seattle Storm talk about themselves the same way you have these groups.
- [34:07]
Zena Kaeda
It can be super isolating. And you know, not only is it a health and safety risk for all the reason, you know, a health risk for all the reasons we kind of talked about involving performance and sleep and recovery. And obviously Covid, there's also a safety risk of like you passing through security alone and losing your teammates and something happening to you because you were the one straggler and then suddenly you're getting stopped and you don't know where your teammates are. So, you know, that is another kind of complicating factor that is present because of how WNBA and teams currently travel.
- [34:36]
Ben Pickman
Well, if you didn't know about travel before or you thought you knew something about travel before in the wnba, I know you learned something today because I learned a few things. It also seems like we're not going to see anything really move on this until 2024 when the opt out for the next CBA is. Wow. I'm still mind blown about the international players. That's, that's a crazy concept. I feel like you're like the lost kid. You're home alone. Like you're just constantly, like, left behind. All right, well, let's, let's close this out a little bit around travel. There are the playoffs coming up, and there was a memo that went around from the wnba, and from what I first read it, it sounded like they were pulling back on some of this progressive measures that they had taken. But it, it seems like that's all good. Now, Sabrina, can you, like, roll out what happened with that latest memo?
- [35:30]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah.
- [35:30]
Sabrina Merchant
So as we, you know, mentioned at the start of this show that the WNBA said that all flights during the post season would be chartered for this upcoming 2023 playoffs. And then there was a memo that went out last week. There was some reporting from Howard Magdalevanics that there was kind of a caveat on that policy where, like, if you end your first round series and then travel home and then travel to the site of your second round series, only one of those flights was going to be allowed to be charter. And there was also another provision that if your cities were within 200 miles of each other, there was no option for charter. This was, you know, some of the details of that, that memo that went out. So again, not quite all postseason flights are charter. There's, you know, some holdups here. The WNBA PA however, just put out a statement within the last couple days that said, we spoke with the commissioner. The promises that were made at the start of the season have been fulfilled. Which, you know, I'm not going to say like, absolves the WNBA of all of their previous, you know, promises, but it does kind of indicate that when public pressure is applied to them, they, I'm not going to say they bent, but they did, you know, accede to the demands. They met the needs of the public. Yes, but it did take some, you know, public reporting of, hey, this is not what we were told at the beginning of the season. We need this to go back to what we thought it was going to be. And it does appear that, you know, problem solved. Like, if you end a series in Atlanta, want to fly back home to Dallas and have to fly to Vegas, you know, for the next round, all of those fights are going to be charter. But it should have just been that way at the start of the season as opposed to having to clarify all of these things.
- [37:05]
Ben Pickman
And here's another example of why players having access to their platforms is so important in this day and age, because think about how many decades, not just in the wnba, but in sports Leagues in general, organizations would just do whatever they wanted in private settings. And until they had public backlash, could something happen or something change? And the reason why I saw that it was suspect, the memo was interesting was because Alicia Clark tweeted about it and was like, this isn't what, you know, this isn't what was promised. So, you know, kudos to the players for raising their voices or their thumbs to tweet out and say and do all the things that they needed to do to get the WNBA to follow suit. So my last question to you all on travel is, what do you think it's going to take for it to change?
- [37:54]
Zena Kaeda
I think a lot is going to change when the upcoming CVA gets renegotiated again. I think most likely players will get some choice, a new TV deal will happen, there'll be an influx of money, and we'll start to see some changes. You know, I think one of the interesting pieces of CBA nuance, again, is that in the NBA, again, not to compare the leagues directly, there's actually not even a requirement that teams have to fly. Charter teams just do that. You just have to fly first class. Basically the easiest way to understand the cba. Whereas in the WNBA there is a restriction on how you have to fly. So it is, again, it's about choice, and it's about restriction is kind of one of the key things. And it's a point we've kind of stressed a lot over this last half hour. So, again, I think that will change in the new cba, but I do think it will continue. We'll continue to see, you know, social media players posting about negative travel experiences. We see maybe, you know, some players have tried to, say, try and convince brands or partners of theirs to donate money or help support and defray travel costs. That's another potential solution that a number of players, Brianna Stewart being among them, have floated in the past in the offseason. That's something else that, you know, who knows, Maybe there's some movement on that front. Right. You know, social media does it flag awareness for airport lounges. Right. That was another thing we wrote about that, you know, players. The WNBPA created another partnership with a company called Priority Pass this year, you know, giving them some lounge access in some of the places they travel. However, that service is mostly international. So, you know, does more public pressure, does more tweets, create a company like Delta, American, United to allow teams that frequently, you know, fly those airlines lounge access. You know, we'll see how this changes. I think players want choice. They obviously want change. They obviously want improvements, getting charters for every game. I think that is the goal. And I think the league would tell you that is the goal as well. Like, I think that is their hope in the future. They would also say that they need to build a sustainable business again. And so that's where you get this kind of push and pull and get into kind of the weeds. And I know we've talked a lot, a bit about it in this episode, but, you know, it really is a balancing act. And I guess we're, I think, in my opinion, we're really going to have to see how this next CBA shakes out and we'll learn a lot about the travel situation when it does.
- [40:03]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, and I really think it comes down to that media rights negotiation, because the current deal with ESPN is up in 2025, right around the time when they'll be negotiating the new cba. And however much money comes in, whether that's via ESPN upping their deal or via a new TV partner, you know, the WNBA is also selling games to Ion and Amazon and CBS as part of its current deal. If they're able to get more dedicated deal from ESPN or again, somebody else, that is a significant raise because they are undervalued. Where, you know, the product currently is like, we see these numbers about how viewership is up 50% from such and such time a year ago. Or, you know, this is the most viewers ever run an ESPN2 game for the WNBA. Yada, yada, yada. That's what Kathy Engelbert is talking about when she says a sustainable business model.
- [40:44]
Zena Kaeda
Right?
- [40:44]
Sabrina Merchant
Because like, you know, the WNBA had that $75 million capital raise. Right. According to her estimations, I could have paid for travel for three years. Right? $25 million a year. But then the race is gone and what do you do after that? So if you get the annual money coming in from the TV contract, which is why, you know, part of why they've extended their schedule to 40 games, even though it's adding more wear and tear to the players, it's more product to sell to the TV networks, you know, then that can subsidize exactly what the players are looking for.
- [41:10]
Ben Pickman
There you go. If you've been listening to this entire podcast and wondering, what can I do to help? Sabrina and Ben just cleanly laid it out for you. Just watch. Your job is to watch and to encourage as many other people to watch as well. Because when those viewership numbers continue to rise and they reach levels that a media company can't deny the value of the WNBA product. That's when the extra commas and zeros come on those media deal checks. And as we know, money is what's going to help get these charter flights. So thank you to Ben and Sabrina for laying it out like this. I feel like I understood the complexity of the issue, but I did not really fully understand what it was going to take to be able to address this issue and resolve it, Particularly the mindsets not only from the players, but the league as well, and everything that's going on around this. Super grateful for this layout. Now, before I let these two go, I do want to get their opinions on something in today's off the script. I mentioned last week that the Athletic did their own WNBA player poll. And. And I want to make sure that you all know it's out. Both parts are out on the site, so go check it out. The players had some very interesting things to say. And we got a legitimate sample size, 46 players, at least two players from each of the 12 teams. And we asked them some various questions, like, who's the best player in the league? Who's going to be the best player in five years in the league? Who would you play for if you weren't playing for your current team or coach? Lots of interesting and surprising responses.
- [42:46]
Sabrina Merchant
No one picked any college players for best player in five years.
- [42:49]
Ben Pickman
Ooh, that's a good point. That's a really good point. Do you think they knew?
- [42:57]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, I offered it as an option to the players that I interviewed, but, like, Asia Wilson was an MVP her 3rd year in the league. Brianna Stewart was an MVP her 3rd Year in the league. I think we have some players coming out of college who could be on that fast track.
- [43:08]
Ben Pickman
Wow, that's a good one. What about you, Ben?
- [43:11]
Zena Kaeda
I'm gonna stick with that question, too. I was surprised that Brianna Stewart was only looped into the other category in that question. I think there is kind of a maybe it's a misconception out there that, like, how old she is or how many years she's played in the league. Right. Stewie is only two years older than Asia Wilson. You know, I think she just turned 29. Asia just turned 27. Asia was still voted as the player most people thought would be the best player in five years. And Stewie was the player most people thought is the best player right now. And, you know, certainly you can argue, Stewie, Asia right now. You know, that is a great argument so many people are having right now as they fill out their MVP ballots. But to see the kind of closeness of the current question, the present day who's the best player question, but see such a discrepancy in the five years question, I thought that was. That was pretty interesting from a lot of players. And I think kind of, maybe it's because Stewie's had that Achilles tear and missed a season due to injury. Maybe it's just. It feels like Stewie's been in people's lives longer. I really don't know.
- [44:06]
Sabrina Merchant
I did actually get an explanation for that. Someone said that because Stewie plays overseas, they think that she won't age as well as Asia will.
- [44:12]
Ben Pickman
Ooh, that's an interesting point. I don't know if it's a good point, but because I don't know how well Breanna Stewart's body is handling that. But you're right in terms of the injury happening overseas, obviously. So interesting. Very good point. Maybe we gotta get some Breonna Stewart, some more deals. She can stay stateside. All right, part two. Interesting questions again. Team you would want to play for, coach you would want to play for. I'm going to ask the both of you for rapid fire. Ben, you're up first. Which team would you want to play for if you were a player in the wnba?
- [44:48]
Zena Kaeda
I mean, the most common answer in our poll was the Las Vegas Aces. You know, some players, we, quote, talk about the vibes and that they seem like they have a lot of fun over in Las Vegas. That is certainly true. I mean, I think if you're looking at franchises, you know, a team like Las Vegas, New York as well, franchises that have proven investment into their players, and not just investment in terms of salary, but practice facilities, performance, staff, you know, potentially travel. We've seen both of those teams have been punished or have been flagged for travel issues or violating potentially travel rules in the past. But that is also a form of investment. I think those are two franchises you have to look at that they seem to be treating their players, you know, head and shoulders or just in a consistently, you know, high quality manner. So I think a lot of players understandably want to play for those franchises.
- [45:36]
Ben Pickman
Oh, yeah. I mean, the Aces, for me, those Aria Sky Suites alone. What if you've never been in an Aria sky suite? Just ask. Just like, just for a tour. Those apartments slash homes are insanely beautiful. And the fact that the Aces players get to stay there is amazing. All right, I'm gonna switch it up for you, Sabrina. Not team of the year, but what coach would you want to play for.
- [46:00]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, I don't think she did particularly well in our poll, but I would take Noel Quinn.
- [46:04]
Ben Pickman
Ooh, that's a good one. Why?
- [46:06]
Sabrina Merchant
First of all, best dress coach in the league. Secondly, I don't really consider myself a superstar type player. I'm more of a role player at my developing stage. And I think Noelle does a very good job with that.
- [46:17]
Ben Pickman
That's true. She's done a really good job with that Storm roster for sure. That's amazing. Okay. All right, last one, both of you. Ben, starting with you. More roster spots or more teams?
- [46:30]
Zena Kaeda
I mean, as cool as it would be to travel to new cities and go to the Bay Area for WNBA games, I mean, I think roster spots would be, you know, the approach I would take in the short term. And I think it is a kind of common approach when you talk to some league executives. And honestly, players voted this way as well. You know, a lot of players talked about that, like we should improve the quality of our, the franchises we have, improve the player experiences that we are currently going through before we add two more teams into the fold. Players talked about injury concerns, creating more taxi squads, expanding rosters to 14, 15. There was worries about watering down the league talent pool. And I think a lot of those explanations really do make sense that, you know, there are a ton of markets that, you know would be great to be tapped into. The Canadian market, we mentioned the Bay Area market being too, among many. And we know that WNBA has looked at many or they've said they've looked at many, but I definitely think there is, you know, there is some credence to saying we can just add more roster spots and they could do that now. You know, there are creative solutions that they could undertake right now. So I would lean on the roster spots question. In line with a lot of the.
- [47:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Players in our poll, I would go with teams. You know, I think about myself as a fan of the nwsl and I only became a fan because they brought a team to Los Angeles and that's where I am. And I just think if you're in more markets across the United States, you just have a bigger footprint. It's easier for people to come in and you can choose the ownership. When you bring in new franchises, a lot of the existing owners, I'm sure that there are people in the league who would want them on the way out. It's a lot to ask them to raise their level up to, you know, what the Lynx and the Mercury and the Aces and the Liberty are doing. Right. But if you can bring in new franchises, you can hand pick the ones who you think are going to do a good job of raising the league to the next level. So I think just getting more places, you know, getting the right kind of owner in the league, I would go with more teams.
- [48:23]
Ben Pickman
I'm going to quickly follow that up. You heard me say shout out to the dubs when Ben said Bay Area, of course, always got to represent the warriors as well personally. But would you rather a team tied to an NBA franchise or into like a one that stands on its own, an individual team?
- [48:43]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, I think either way is fine. Like, we've seen successful models of both franchises.
- [48:47]
Ben Pickman
I personally would love for the warriors to get, I don't know, the Amazons, something equivalent to the Bay. Thank you. You know, I think it. I think it fits. I think it fits well. All right, guys, that is all for today. Thank you, Sabrina. Thank you, Ben, for just laying it all out there. I think we have a better understanding whenever these players are on Twitter, on Instagram, in press conferences, whatever, talking about travel. We understand what they're going through, we understand why they're calling for it, and we also have a better understanding of why Kathy Engelbert is responding to questions the way she is when the questions around travel arise. So appreciate you laying that out. Shout out to our sponsor again, Michelob Ultra. And before we sign off, remember, next week we are going up to two shows, so make sure to hit that Follow subscribe button wherever you're getting your podcast so you don't miss out. Right now, we are signing off for the Athletic. I'm Zena Kaeda, encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning, and keep loving the game until next time.
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Zena Kaeda
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