← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Unrivaled debuts and women's college hoops ... gets paid (finally)
01:00:59
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- [00:01]
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- [02:52]
Unknown Speaker
Love.
- [02:52]
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- [04:57]
Zena Kaida
For the athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's hoops. Whether you're a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the game or you're a casual fan that caught a little new concept called Unrivaled on TNT last Friday. And you're looking to learn more? Don't worry, we got you. You're in the right spot. Please make sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your pods so you can stay up to date with us and subscribe to the Athletic Online. Tons of great written content talking about all things from college basketball to unrivaled. And that is what we are here to talk about today. I got Ben Pickman in the building and he's going to talk about his experience because let's be real, sitting on the couch and getting to see Unrivaled launch in front of us was one experience and it was an amazing experience. But I can't even begin to imagine what it was like to be a part of history and be there. So, Ben Pickman, you got to start me from the very beginning. How did you get to Miami? What was the vibe? What were the vibes like starting out and then we're going to get into the actual game. But first of all, when did you get there?
- [06:20]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I got to Miami on Wednesday, which was I guess two days before Unrival officially tipped off or their first game began. Which is because on Thursday the players all did a big media day circuit where, you know, 36, the 36 players that were participating, 22 of which are WNBA All Stars, some of the best players in the world, all just kind of ran through a circuit of interviews, meeting reporters and discussing the league and any other topics around women's basketball, much like they kind of would at a WNBA All Star game or All Star weekend. It had that kind of energy to it. And one of the things that was so kind of fun or interesting to see, I guess on Thursday was as we were talking, they were still very much putting last minute finishes around the back end of the arena. For instance, there were people who were still hanging up a big merch sign. There was a whole group of people who was unboxing T shirts and hats and lanyards and putting them on shelves. There were still last minute touches kind of being put together on Thursday and into Friday right before tip off started. Like this was a kind of living, breathing space that, you know, was put together very quickly, relatively speaking, certainly. And so people were still working on everything really in the lead up to it. And we should say, like this league is marketing that it is in Miami and it is true. Like we are in the Florida Heat. We're taping this on Sunday afternoon after their first two games first two day of games, I feel the Florida weather. I feel the Florida humidity, but I'm not by the water, right? Like, let's be clear here. Like, I am not staying, like, on Biscayne Bay or Miami beach or the Brickell neighborhood. Like, I am way more inland. We are close to Doral. I think I am on the outskirts city limits of Miami proper. I think Unrivaled is technically taking place in a town called Medley Florida, but it is a little bit confusing. But, you know, you still get that Florida weather. So I guess you can say Miami is still appropriate, I guess, right?
- [08:13]
Zena Kaida
It definitely still counts. It's funny because as you watch the broadcast, you kept seeing these, like, overarching, overarching views of. Of. Of Brickell, which. I used to live there, guys. I used to work for the Miami Dolphins. And that also is a deceptive situation because they're in Miami Gardens, which is a little bit higher up, and it's definitely not close to the water at all. So maybe there's a thing where we will just, you know, are using Miami because it is attractive. But either way, Unrivaled looked attractive as a product on tv. And it's interesting to hear, like, they're very much a startup, right, for you to say that they're still putting these pieces together. I thought one of the coolest things that we heard on the broadcast from Ali laforce was this building was built from the ground up for the purpose of Unrivaled. And Ben, I think you just took a tour of the facilities. Like, what was it like? We hear about it. There's spaces for facials or spaces for kids, you know, daycare. There's everything in this one building. What was it like?
- [09:11]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we should say that just to be technically accurate. This building itself, the literal walls were not built for unrivaled. I believe it was a converted TV studio. And so there was, like, a space that was there. They basically, though, fully took it over, fully transformed it. Hallways, rooms, wallpapers, rugs, like, every kind of detail, they have kind of thought about and kind of reimagined the space to their liking. So, yeah, I just got off a tour seeing kind of the full back end, and the detail, really, the intentionality in the design is really, really tremendous. I would say, you know, every team has their own locker room, and we should say, like, the locker rooms are just a few feet from each other. So it's down one hallway, and, you know, you have one locker room, and then right on the other side of the wall, you have another locker room and then slightly further down the hall you have another one. And each one out, like outside of each one, you have big signs and lights. And they've really tried to create specialized and not just cookie cutter like blank canvas walls, but they filled it in so that each team feels like they have their own space, which is for them. You mentioned it. They have a nursery room and that is for, I guess your littlest of kids. You have a literal nursing room for parents if they want to nursing on site. You have a kid's playroom which is different than the nursery room, which is for maybe your older, you know, slightly older kid. And it has like a mini basketball hoop that you would for like a 3, 4, 5 year old with little unrivaled stickers on it. Right. They have snacks everywhere. Like they have a lot of these details and the family planning, we should say, like the welcoming environment they wanted to create for mothers and families, like that was really intentional. A lot of players talked about it and we saw those details certainly in these rooms. The weight room, for instance, they built this new weight room with tons and tons of equipment in it, state of the art equipment. And a lot of them, the pieces of equipment have the unrivaled logo on it or a big rug. Like it doesn't feel like they are just kind of renting out this space temporarily. It feels like they've been in this space for a long time. Saunas, cold tubs, training rooms. It really is, you know, a top notch facility. And players, when we were talking to them on Thursday and throughout the weekend, they really did talk about that every kind of amenity that they want. I think Ryan Howard put it to me like they have everything we want and if there is something else that we want, they will get it for us. Right? And so that is definitely one of the immediate draws for players. And I think, you know, it's why so many have gotten off and had a positive experience so far. Because, you know, it really is a professional, high quality environment in terms of training room facilities, saunas, childcare, practice court. Like it's all under one roof, but it really is a one stop shop where they can get as much work in as they want.
- [11:50]
Zena Kaida
And this all makes sense when you think about the two players that started this league, Brianna Stewart and Afisa Collier, both of which have kids under five and that. And they've been through those stages of being an athlete while also being a mother. And so they've got that thoughtfulness into it. And then you think about the Star, studded athlete, studded roster of investors. I'm sure they had something, you know, to input. I saw that there was an interview with Alex Morgan, who also had been an athlete and also a mother. Going down the list of people, we saw Steve Nash on the sideline. We know Kevin Durant's invested, and he was tweeting during the weekend. Juju Watkins, invested. I mean, this is. This is an unbelievable just input of folks that have played this sport and have seen it at the highest levels and can feed into the intentionality clearly shown by this overall league. Okay, so that's kind of like a little bit of the behind the scenes. Now, talk to me about being in the crowd, because when we were watching the game, I very much felt like the court itself was so tech savvy, like very tech forward. There are graphics everywhere. The lights were awesome, etc. But the one thing was the crowd noise. So what was it like being inside the arena as the games were going on? What were, like, team announcements? Like. Like, what did that feel like?
- [13:08]
Unknown Speaker
Sure. So unrivaled, basically, in their facility has two kinds of courts. They have a big practice court, which is just that it is the practice court. The teams, you know, are doing walkthroughs, practices on all that kind of stuff. And then they have what they're calling a show court. And that is kind of the arena court. And that is the court that all the actual games are taking place on. And it's a really, really intimate environment. The furthest seat for fans, I believe, is like 32 or 35ft from the court. There were just under a thousand people there. I want to say it was about 850 or 870 people there, depending on the capacity. So it feels very small and like you're very much on top of the action. That's one of the first things that stands out. It was important when they were designing the show court, that they wanted to create a little bit of that special feel to it. And so they built a stage on one full sideline. So I think when you are watching the broadcast, when the camera pans, you have the two benches. And kind of behind the two benches, there is this stage. And so players at the start of games walk out onto the stage and have kind of introductions, much like they would at an All Star game, where they kind of come out and it's dark and they strike a little pose and then they walk to their respective side. We actually saw it was very funny. Sabrina Ionescu, when she got called out for her game On Saturday was the first time she started to actually walk the wrong way and then had to, like, after one step, walk to the right, back to her still in the evening. But it was like, you know, still. Still new to everybody. Exactly right. But it felt very intimate the whole time. And it felt like we were kind of watching, like, a competitive All Star Game, so to speak. All Star Game in that, like, the best players in the world are all playing in front of us, but far more competitive than just your traditional All Star Game.
- [14:46]
Zena Kaida
Right, right.
- [14:46]
Unknown Speaker
And if we want to talk about the intimacy for a second, I think one of the kind of lasting scenes and impressions I'll have from the weekend is a lot of the players, when they were not actually participating in games, were still in the arena. Right. So Friday night, some of the players who played on Saturday were actually still there. Or if you had the second game, you came out and watched some of the first game. Or if you played in the first game, you stayed and watched some of the second game. And the same thing was true on the Saturday session. And so there were just players who were walking down, you know, aisles, like, finding their seat, or they were just sitting in the crowd amongst normal people. And as they would walk around, like, you would sometimes just hear cheers out of nowhere. And you would look up and you would say, oh, what are they cheering for? And it's like, oh, there's Ryan Howard, or there's Theresa Weatherspoon going to her seat, or there's Marina Mabry passing through to her seat, like, and you would have fans who would come up to these players and take pictures. Like, there very much was this kind of intimate, communal environment in this small space. It reminded some players of the bubble in that way, though some people kind of bristled at the comparison. But there definitely was a AAU High school tournament, you know, vibe to it, except for, again, you're watching the best players in the world in person.
- [15:54]
Zena Kaida
Yeah. You know what this makes me think of? During the Last Dance documentary, they always talk about that with the Dream Team practice, that was a closed practice, and it was like, all the best players in America going hard at each other. And when you talk about, like, that All Star feel, it really does feel like this, like, close practice environment where you're seeing the best players, I mean, be the most competitive that they can be, trying to score, trying to go at a fast pace. And it's nonstop.
- [16:22]
Unknown Speaker
Right.
- [16:22]
Zena Kaida
It's like a practice environment where it's nonstop. Let's talk about the games, because I'm not gonna lie to you, Ben, for the first two minutes. Okay, the very first, I'll set the scene, by the way. So the very first game is between the two teams of the two founders. Brianna Stewart and her mist and then Nafisa Collier and the lunar hours. And the very first two, two to three plays was a lot of chuck and buckets. And I was like, I don't know if this is going to be good basketball. I'm a little worried, et cetera. And I'll tell you how it was. I was sitting. I was standing in my living room and I was standing behind my couch, kind of like a D when they're watching it, when you're watching a show that they're not necessarily interested in, but they're just gonna kind of from behind, kind of look at it. So I was kind of looking at it and then I don't remember what move happened. Someone made a really great move and I got closer to the couch and then another bucket went in and I sat down on the couch and I was supposed to be like, I was gonna be watching it. As I went on my walk, I had my iPad in my hand and everything ready. And I was like, I ain't going nowhere.
- [17:25]
Ben Pickman
This is too good.
- [17:27]
Zena Kaida
And I like sat down on the couch. My dog Remy had to wait another until halftime to get walked. But it was like I got Dr. In. Like, it was so exciting and fast paced and everything. Like, what did it feel like for you?
- [17:40]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think the pacing is the thing that stands out. Like the games really do move. Right. It's a modified full court, so it is not the traditional length of a full court, but it's certainly not a half court either. And so the way the game is kind of structured and the game they decided on, you still have all the elements. You have fast break, you know, plays in transition, you have chase down blocks, you have, you know, people trying to push the pace, you have people trying to slow it up. Like a lot of the elements that you would see in a traditional 5 on 5 basketball game still apply to this context. And so I think one of the things I felt about it and came away from the weekend feeling in terms of the actual gameplay is it feels incredibly normal, like in the best possible way. Right. Like it doesn't feel gimmicky at all. Yeah, it feels like that's good. You know, this is basketball. Like we know it kind of. They've been using the phrase basketball in its purest form because you just have players out there kind of making Plays the whole time and the action doesn't stop. And, you know, no slight to maybe the extra 3 and D wing on the floor at one time or the extra big at one time. But like the action is so condensed and so often, you know, as coaches have talked about basketball is played, you know, three player actions at one time. Right. And then maybe you have someone else in the corner. We've just kind of gotten rid of that person in the corner, for instance, you know, on the far wing who's not really in the play. And we've concentrated everybody in the play.
- [19:04]
Zena Kaida
Yeah.
- [19:04]
Unknown Speaker
You know, I think at times there is still a lot of isolation basketball, but if you watch the. The Laces team, and that is the team with Kayla McBride, Tiffany Hayes, Alyssa Thomas, Steph Dolson and Jackie Young and Kate Martin like that as a team, and Jackie Young missed the Saturday game, but that is a team with plenty of experience and it really showed. Like, watch their game back. You see a lot of actions like they were running real stuff. And I think it was a large part because they're so experienced together.
- [19:33]
Zena Kaida
That was the first blowout in unrivaled history. 86, 48 over the Phantom. But yes, right, exactly.
- [19:38]
Unknown Speaker
And they look like they very much were on the same page. You watched them, you saw a lot less just straight isolation that I think we saw throughout the weekend. But look, there's nothing wrong with seeing one player dance and show off their moves in front of someone else on the court. Right. No one has an issue with that. And I don't think the fans did either. So it feels like basketball like that, I think, is the core thing and the product. Because you have the best players and because of how they structured it, it is a little different. Seven minute quarters. There's an Elam ending and we can talk a little bit about that if you want. I wonder what that was like on tv.
- [20:11]
Zena Kaida
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:12]
Unknown Speaker
But they've made some tweaks, but it feels pretty familiar in a way that I think helps people who are just tuning in just kind of be entertained just like you by the product.
- [20:24]
Zena Kaida
Well, see, okay, I'm happy you brought up the Elam ending, but. And I'm also happy you brought up, like, the condensed game first. Let's talk about the condensed game. Because when you think about basketball, you think about some of the best offenses and the most simple offenses that you teach little kids. And then you. You grow upon that triangle offense. Right? Like being able to know when a back's cut, know how to use your angles to like, utilize that that's exactly what you're seeing continuously and continuously and continuously. It is actually really great fundamental basketball of understanding how to set up a player for a pick and ro. How to utilize a pick and roll. Like, it's just really beautiful basketball in that way. Now I was concerned, like, okay, first quarter, second quarter, I'm seeing real basketball. Third quarter, cool. I was worried about that fourth quarter. And I want you to break down the fourth quarter and how that works. Um, because I, I, I didn't know what to expect. The last time we'd seen an Elim ending, the last time I'd seen at least was in the men's NBA All Star the year that Kobe passed. And they had utilized that and a way to honor him. And that was fun. I still remember people being glued in their seats for that. But I, I wasn't sure how it was going to end up here and how I knew that this all was fine. More than fine with me is how hype I got when Skylar Diggins called game. And that very first game between the Mist and the Lunar Owls and me waiting for them to get to 84. Like, they were both so close, back and forth, back and forth. And I was like, I'm, I'm this bought in off the first game. Like, like this is, this is gonna work. I think this is gonna work. So break down what that Elam ending is and then also like what it felt like to execute, what it looked like for it to execute in real time, having no clock. Sure.
- [22:02]
Unknown Speaker
I mean, we should say kind of the Elam ending concept is one that, you know, people have tried in some college basketball tournaments and you mentioned in the NBA All Star Game where basically you are playing the fourth quarter to a target score instead of just playing a time limit. Right. And so in this case in unrivaled, the target winning score is 11 points greater than the team's total at the leading team's total after three quarters. So, you know, if the score of the game was 80 to 70, then the target score in that Elam ending fourth quarter here in unrivaled would be 91. It's 11 more than that leading team. And so one of the things we had in that very first game was Brianna Stewart's team missed was actually leading going into the fourth quarter and lunar hours were, they were trailing. And so you had both the team kind of mount a comeback and then also win it at the end. And players really did talk about just how competitive it was in the fourth quarter. And the fans clearly Got engaged too. And you know, every game ends on a game winning shot. Now Skylar Diggin Smith, she hit the game winner on Friday night. It was super exciting. I don't think people were like fully prepared because she kind of dribbled up into it and Dijonay Carrington went under her screen and digging. Smith buried the three and kind of as like she was walking the ball up the court. The PA in the arena was like a three pointer wins it. And he barely just got that phrase in. And I think the ball was like when he said it.
- [23:22]
Zena Kaida
Yeah.
- [23:22]
Unknown Speaker
And then like. And then it fell and then they like switched the lights off and you could see how animated like she was and her teammates and how important it was for them to win the first game. Like it meant something to them. Now that was like a really. That was definitely one of the highlights of the weekend. She also then ended the game on Saturday, but she did it at the free throw line. Like not as exciting. Right. So this is not to say like every ending of every game is going to be this amazing shot that's just going to be played over and over again on TV or on social media. But it certainly does lend itself to more moments. And you don't have people dribbling out the clock. You don't have the kind of free throw game back and forth. You have games that continue to move because there's no foul game to play. You're just playing basically like can you prevent the winning team, the leading team after three quarters to get 11 points or vice versa. So yeah, I think it lends itself really, really well to this format. You know, I think if I'm going to put my kind of basketball rules cap on, I think maybe college basketball games. Can you imagine a college game.
- [24:20]
Zena Kaida
Yeah.
- [24:21]
Unknown Speaker
Mending in the fourth quarter or like the last five minutes of a men's second half instead of, you know, just running out the clock. You know, I think some people might like that more. I'm not going to name names, but this format definitely lends itself well to some exciting products. And I think that is another thing that you know, you're just going to have chances if you're a new league to have memorable plays.
- [24:40]
Zena Kaida
Yeah.
- [24:41]
Unknown Speaker
Like throughout the season. And I think that is important for a league that is trying to brand on social too.
- [24:45]
Zena Kaida
You are hitting the nail on the head. More moments. Right. When you think about leagues and engagement with leagues, it's social media. Right. Sometimes people don't even watch full games. People are coming in because an app told them like, oh, this game is close, go check it out. Or they saw something on, on, on X or on Blue sky or whatever and they're like, oh, let me go see what that' about. Like if you have more moments to be able to capitalize on that, that's how you can get people more engaged.
- [25:10]
Unknown Speaker
And we should say like Xena, you know, you can put your business cap on here for a second too. These games are broadcasted on TNT and TRUTV and they stream on Max. And obviously them unrivaled getting this media rights partnership. It's a six year deal with WBD that's really significant in terms of big deal, them getting visibility. But one of the things that was really important for unrivaled executives in trying to find the right media rights partner was actually like Bleacher Report or House of Highlights or highlight her like that. You know WBD now BRW Sports. Right. They rebranded good correction there like because that company has those brands under it and those outlets have such reach online. That was another big part of the appeal for unrivaled tentacles. Yeah, exactly that you know, you have the kind of linear television presence for fans watching and that is really important. But you also have easy accessibility to create moments on social and have them be shared and aggregated to as many people as possible. And that's why, you know, again, that was another reason why that partnership in their minds was the right one to.
- [26:19]
Zena Kaida
Make absolutely such a great point. Being able to have those tentacles of. Okay, it's not not only in our interest to, you know, go ahead and post on our own particular sites, but it's in our media rights deal interests to utilize all the different platforms that they have within their conglomerate to boost this and tnt, especially with the fact that they almost lost their NBA rights completely. They want to make sure that whatever they're putting on their platform, you know, boosts and cultivates and grows so incredibly smart. I just saw everything about the way that this product was brought to the audiences at Mass, the lead up to the roster, just the, the way that they broke down even on the day of the content that came out on their, their pages and on the different media folks. Like the articles that you and Sabrina wrote, like about unrivaled great pieces of content, people doing explainers, people talking about like what teams are going to be best. I think it was Sarah Spain on her podcast that did like a breakdown to see like which team would you want to do? Like there was just so much engagement around this entire thing and it's so Much thoughtfulness. I will say this, and Richard Deitch, someone that listens to our podcast a lot, called this out and I agree because I was on Blue sky, tweeting or skeeting, I guess, about the, about the games. And they Unrivaled doesn't have a Blue sky page. I definitely think that that would be something that they can capitalize on way more. But overall, I thought the thoughtfulness was really, really great. I want to get your opinions, though, on some of the play and wanted to see, like, what were some of the teams or players that you were like, ooh, they can make a deep run in this. Unrivaled.
- [27:55]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I thought it was kind of the Laces team. And yeah, they had the biggest win of the weekend, but I mentioned it. They're a really experienced group. I think Caleb McBride said they have something like 300 plus more games of WNBA experience than every other team kind of in the league. And I think that maybe lends themselves to being able to be more cohesive. Early on. It was kind of funny. Also, someone with that team kind of said to me, like, they were aware of some of the POW rankings. I think there were some unrivaled POW rankings out there that didn't love the Laces team. So that was definitely a team that was impressive. And then, you know, the Lunar owls team, they're 20 after their first weekend of games. That's Nafisa Collier, Alicia Gray, Skyler Diggins Smith. You know, those are kind of your big three on that team. Like, they looked really, really good, obviously, having that comeback win on Friday and then they had a very good win on Saturday as well. So, you know, those are two teams that stand out. But honestly, like, a lot of the teams feel. The teams do, on the whole, feel very balanced.
- [28:56]
Zena Kaida
Yeah, they do. Yes. Agree with that.
- [28:58]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, like, there might be some blowouts. And, you know, we started to see, like, the Phantom team is the team with, you know, Sabrina Unescu on it. She's coming off of a right thumb injury. Marina Mabry's on that team. She was injured. Like, you know, we're going to see injuries pop up. We're going to see some teams that are a little undermanned, but on the whole, like, the teams are pretty balanced. And again, like any team, it does feel like certainly early on that any team can kind of win on. On any given night. I guess, as the cliche goes, I.
- [29:28]
Zena Kaida
Had someone ask me, like, wait, how do they create these teams? Because they were so balanced. And I was like, it's interesting. The coaches and staff came together to choose teams before they knew who they were coaching. So it was completely unbiased in terms of like who they wanted to coach or who they thought should be on their team to, you know, try to stack up a team. So this is why it's so, so well balanced. But one question to you that was actually surprising for me and you've kind of called it out on this podcast. But I was surprised that the teams that are a little bit older and more experienced are actually playing better because I thought this was going to be such a conditioning heavy sort of situation. And it seems like it really is an IQ thing as well. And comfort out there. What would you say on that? Like conditioning versus like the veteranship actually plays to your advantage?
- [30:18]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think the experience, you know, helps people. The basketball IQ helps. Certainly that laces team feel more cohesive right away. You know, there were certainly players who had three on three experience and talked a little bit about that from kind of a FIBA context applying to unrivaled and that making a little bit of a difference. I mean I do still think like everyone is getting into shape. Like there were definitely moments throughout the weekend where there were players who put their hands on their knees and seemingly were like a little bit more fatigued or we saw some three pointers that were forced up that might have been fatigue. Threes or drives that were a little bit out of control because players were a little bit tired. But again that's where you have six players on each team. And so the subbing does feel pretty constant. And the games are seven minutes. And as Luke Cooper actually said on this podcast to us last week, like they tested some different lengths and they tried to figure out like what the right length of time was and they ended up going getting to seven minutes. Now we should say Xena, if we're playing media criticism here for a second. The first broadcast was 2 hours and 53 minutes long I think of game time. You know, it was initially allocated in a two hour window. So you know this is a made for TV product. Saturday's window I think was around 2 hours and 30 minutes. But it will be interesting to see going forward if there are any changes that need to be made or if they extend the broadcast window to to 230 instead of two hours. Because again you have three seven minute quarters and an Elam ending. You have an eight minute halftime at each game and you also have around a 10 minute break in between game one and game two. So there's a lot of basketball that is crammed into one space. And so that I do think is one of the questions that I'm looking at from a kind of a TV and production standpoint is how long is each broadcast going to be going forward? Because again, this is a made for TV product. You only have around a thousand people in the arena. So it is very important obviously that you're doing what your TV partner wants. And you know, again, going back to where we started this podcast, like it is a startup and so I wouldn't be surprised if they tried things out or if they made, you know, adjustments on the fly to kind of satisfy the needs of all their partners.
- [32:19]
Zena Kaida
I think it'd actually be pretty cool for fans to be able to stay, you know, up to date and be alongside the process as they continue to improve and tweak for, I don't know, the best product out there right now. This was cool. It was awesome to see. Everyone just bought in immediately. Not only because it was already the best basketball players in the world coming together to play ball, but the way that it was produced and put together. I mean, you, you have a pregame show, halftime show with Renee Montgomery and Candace Parker alongside Lauren Jabarra. You go right into Brandon Glasheen and Lisa Leslie on color. I mean, from a product perspective at home, it was just, just, it matched the energy and the thoughtfulness on the court. And so overall the entire product went really well. So I just want to thank you for giving us a little bit of that inside scoop and that background to unrivaled. I, I'm looking at the calendar. I want to get down there because it looks just too cool to not be a part of. And if you guys are listening, like, definitely go check it out. Definitely go check it out. Be a part of history. But any last words on unrival? Ben?
- [33:26]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think we should say a little bit of how this league kind of plans to grow and where it sees itself in the marketplace going forward.
- [33:33]
Zena Kaida
That's true. Yeah.
- [33:35]
Unknown Speaker
Because, you know, so often startup leagues come and go and this league certainly is one that seems like it is on a stronger financial footing than so many others.
- [33:44]
Zena Kaida
Part of that $28 million of funding.
- [33:46]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, right. And actually it's 35 million. They had seven last year and then raised another 28 million in December. They have this TV deal which I mentioned in the six year deal with WBD. So that puts them in strong footing too. And you know, you don't really have a large overhead. You know, you're playing payers, you're paying players salaries. And we should say they've kind of said that this is the highest average salary of any kind of women's North American women's sports league. Players are getting on average more than $200,000 to play in unrivaled. And they also get equity in the league. So they're on this strong footing. But there are still interesting plans to grow in the future. So Alex Bizzell, who is the league president, he told me, and you can read about this in more depth on the site right now, that actually in future years Unrivaled wants to do some touring. And that is kind of a way that they're going to grow and they're going to basically take the lead. They're going to take the lead on the road and they're going to target non WNBA cities and also college towns. So it wouldn't be shocking, and this is now speculation if that next year, say they played a game in Baton Rouge or they played a game, if Caitlin Clark participated in Iowa or they went up to Notre Dame or South Carolina. Like they go to some of these markets potentially like these college towns where, you know, there are so many women's basketball fans that would just pack an arena, that wouldn't be shocking. And they kind of talked about, and Alex told me this in the story, that they kind of want to go to different markets to help grow the games, to grow the game of women's basketball. And also you have these in person touch points like that's how you kind of create fans for life because you're creating in person experiences. So, you know, taking the league on the road and you know, it's not going to be every weekend. I think it's just going to maybe be a few cities next year. And they always want to have a home base. Taking the lead up the league on the road. It brings some more logistical challenges, right. Because you know, you're just going into different environments. But in their minds, like that is a way to grow the business. You open yourself up to more fan opportunities. You know, you could potentially do more brand activations on site. Right. If you're different companies and you know, they have a very long list of brands who have partnered with them, some of whom have never actually gotten into women's sports or sports before you have that opportunity. Under Armour is the outfitter. You know, you could definitely foresee Under Armour holding a youth clinic or youth camps, you know, at different colleges or different markets. Right. Like that's something they do And I think that is definitely an appeal from talking to an executive there. So. So there's a lot of kind of growth opportunity that the tour model bakes in. It will be a little bit different than everything being down in Florida, but that is definitely how they are seeing themselves as trying to grow in kind of the short and medium and I guess long term, too.
- [36:22]
Zena Kaida
I'm happy you mentioned that because as I was watching this I put out there on the Internet, I was like, I can imagine that the battle to get on one of these teams is going to be intense next year now that players know what's available. Not only the pay, not only the equity, but all of the benefits to this league and also the development that you can get while you're down there or a part of unrivaled. Like, I know the competition is going to be fierce to be a part of this thing. So not only, like, you know, thinking from the perspective of being able to barnstorm and go to different towns in America, I'm expecting, like, expansion already. You know what I mean? We were talking about WNBA expansion. I've been thinking about team expansion as well.
- [37:05]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. I do think it's possible that maybe they add, you know, another team or two here or there, and then that's just kind of some. Some light speculation on my part. I don't think this will ever be. Or I know from talking to some executives there, this is never going to be like 16 teams, 18 teams, 20 teams. Like, they all. They do want to maintain some of the exclusivity here. And, you know, scarcity is honestly like one of the. The benefits of this league, I think. Right. If you're an investor, I agree. It's only 10 weeks. Right. So there's not that much risk. There's not much. That much overhead right now. There's no travel. And keeping it kind of exclusive to the best players means you're getting, you know, in theory, the best product possible. Right. Whereas if you kind of widen it and suddenly you go from 36 players to, you know, 48 players to 60 players to, you know, 72 players, like, if you do that every year, hypothetically, like, you're kind of losing the. The lure of it, and it just kind of becomes like WNBA January. Right. Or WNBA February. And I don't think that is their intention here. Right. I do think they want to be added a standalone product. Right. And so, you know, I would be. I wouldn't be shocked if, you know, they added another team here or there. But I do think, like, an Angel Reese kind of put it this way. Like, it's gonna be hard to get in the villa. Like, we're, you know, we're keeping this kind of tight.
- [38:23]
Zena Kaida
Exactly. Oh, that's funny. That's funny. All right, well, I'll close this with this. When you talked about the brands, too, nice touch with the Sephora refs. I thought that was amazing. I love that look. I was, like, thinking about referees in a different way. Like, now I'm like, the zebras are Sephora. I just, I. I loved it. It was so thoughtful. So many different things that Unrivaled did throughout the weekend. Just unbelievable launch. Everyone at that team should be applauding themselves for being able to get something like this off the ground. And I hope it, it, it inspires other professional sporting leagues, people that are looking for something to be additive to the main pro leagues. Like, you can be able to see something like this go off and say, maybe, you know, we can look at this in soccer and whatever, whatever sport you're thinking of. There's also, like, four volleyball leagues that popped up over the weekend that we're not here to cover that. But again, it's great to see the things that are growing in women's sports across the board. And unrivaled has immediately set a standard. All right, well, speaking of setting standards, there was a big announcement that came across over the weekend where the Department of Education said that Title 9 now applies to payments to athletes. Title 9, nil. We've known Title 9 for a long period of time of just ensuring that equality is within all NCAA sports and, and making sure that the law that ensures that equality applies to all sports within a college ecosystem of sports, but within this world of nil, which is a brand new world that we're still navigating. Very interesting to see how this law will apply. And Sabrina Merchant and Chantelle Jennings are going to talk a little bit more about it because there's a lot of questions still out there. So I'm going to kick it off to them to get that conversation going. Sabrina Shantelle. Take it away.
- [40:24]
Sabrina Merchant
It was a big week for women's basketball finance nerds. Feels like outside of games, this is like the biggest thing we should be talking about right now. First of all, women's basketball units are officially, officially coming to the Sport after the 2025 or for the 2025 Women's NCAA Tournament. Dawn Staley became the highest paid basketball coach in women's basketball, making 4 million a year. Get your bag. We should point out that that still lags behind men's basketball coaches, but in. In the women's basketball game, she's now number one, ahead of Kim Mulkey and Gina Auriemma. And then last week on Thursday, Department of Ed, in the last days of the Biden administration, put out a memo about how revenue sharing should look going forward. And it was quite the surprise for some, I would say folks who are fans of football and men's college basketball were surprised to see that Title IX will be applied to the funds that are coming out of revenue sharing, which means a lot. So I think those are all things we can dive into today as we sort of look at the finance side of all of this.
- [41:32]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I do think we have a pretty big finance nerd listenership of the women's basketball show here. I would be surprised if people were not just in terms of all the things we talk about. I think we should break this down from the easiest to understand to the most complex. So let's start with Dawn Staley. She made News back in 2021, was it? When she held out and made sure that her new contract matched that of Frank Martin, who was the men's basketball coach at South Carolina at the time.
- [41:58]
Sabrina Merchant
Asked her agent to stand down and said, I'm going to get a lawyer to do this because we're going to go in for an equal pay fight.
- [42:03]
Ben Pickman
Which, like props, wonderful, great idea, like, great commitment. The fact that she was being measured against Frank Martin, though, just is. God, so annoying. Who has accomplished nothing at South Carolina. No longer the head coach at South Carolina.
- [42:16]
Sabrina Merchant
She was fired shortly thereafter.
- [42:18]
Ben Pickman
Right, right. So the contract that she had then put her in the realm of, what was it, like, 3 million annually?
- [42:23]
Sabrina Merchant
A little higher than 3 million. So she was third.
- [42:26]
Ben Pickman
Okay. And then since then, Jean Auriemma and Kim Mulkey have added extensions to their deals that put them on top of Dawn Staley. And so she, coming off of an undefeated national title season, once again had the leverage to, you know, reassert herself as the queen of college basketball, which makes perfect sense. And you said she lags behind what, like 16 men's basketball coaches?
- [42:44]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. All of whom are not. All of whom. I can't say that definitively because I don't know exactly. All 16, but most of whom are probably less successful than she is definitely.
- [42:52]
Ben Pickman
Over the last Bill Self on the list. You know, that's a good name. Obviously, someone who deserves money for what he's done in Kansas. That Big 12 battle streak is nothing to poo poo, but, yeah, okay, so I don't follow men's college basketball that closely, but I can't think that there are 16 coaches who are more accomplished than Tom Staley. But even then, to be 17th nationally feels like a big step forward for where women's college basketball coaches were, you know, puts a little bit of a damper on anybody who wants Don Staley to come out and coach one of the WNBA expansion teams. But it is what it is. I think things are going pretty well at South Carolina. And like, I wouldn't say this was expected news, but to. To see the press release come out that Don Staley, you know, became the highest paid coach in the sport makes a lot of sense. I don't really have much more to say about this other than, you know, congrats to Don and kudos to South Carolina for continuing to actually invest when something good is happening for their women's sports.
- [43:42]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I'd say the only thing to add is that I think what's interesting here is that South Carolina got a new ad at the end of 2024. So this is really the first move he's making in his tenure as athletic director at South Carolina. And so I think it shows in terms of Gamecock fans, he's prioritizing women's sports in a way that matters, and so just keeps putting South Carolina sort of on a pedestal for how to treat your. Your women's basketball coaches, at least. All right, so then the. The medium complicated financial advancement for women's hoops over the last week. Units. Sabrina, you want to take this one?
- [44:17]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, units. So this has been a buzzword in the NCAA tournament women's basketball space for a couple years now, because it has existed on the men's side for a very long time and has not on the women's side. And essentially, the breakdown is when a team appears in an NCAA tournament game, their conference gets a payout for them having appeared in that game. So, for instance, five PAC 12 teams go to the Sweet 16 of the women's NCAA tournament. That's three games that they've all appeared in. That's 15 units that the conference gets on their behalf. And you had to use the PAC12. I knew it was a number that I had perfectly.
- [44:52]
Sabrina Merchant
Salt in the wound. Salt in the wound.
- [44:54]
Ben Pickman
Just think about what the PAC12 could have done with units, you know?
- [44:57]
Sabrina Merchant
Got it. Sorry. I digress.
- [45:00]
Ben Pickman
Basically, a conference is rewarded for their teams having success in the NCAA tournament. So, you know, when South Carolina wins a national title, they get six units added towards the SEC when, like, UConn even makes a national title game, six units go towards the Big East. And this has been happening on the men's side. So, like, you know, you get an anomalous NC State Final Four run, and that's five units added towards the acc. Whereas NC State makes the Final Four on the women's side in 2024, and the ACC got nothing. And really, what this is incentivizing here is that when your men's basketball teams do well, the conference benefits. Thus, they want to take that money and reinvest it back into men's basketball because it is a feedback loop. And women's success created no financial benefit for the conference, which meant that they were not exactly incentivized to put more money back into women's basketball. And now that will no longer be the case. So, Chantel, can you explain us a little bit more about just, like, the monetary value of these units?
- [45:59]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So I think NC State's a good example because you have a team that made both the men's and women's Final Four last year. So, for instance, with the men's NCAA run for NC State, which was a surprising team to make the Final Four last season, the Wolf Pack, along with the other ACC teams in March Madness last year, despite the fact that they didn't win that conference, did not win the national title, the conference earned $34 million. And units on the men's side and the women's side are paid out over multiple years. On the men's side, it's six years. On the women's side, it's three years. And so it's sort of. You have to do a little bit of division and addition here, but roughly, every single game that the men appeared in last year, they made $2 million for their conference. So, like Sabrina said, this incredible feedback loop that I think women's coaches for a long time have said, you know, we are making money. Clearly, the deal signed between the NCAA and ESPN last year where the women's tournament was, you know, they said it's worth 60 million a year. I think at that point, a lot of people were like, okay, where are the units? Like, for so long, people have said about the women's tournament that it's a money loser. It is clearly not a money loser. It's worth $60 million a year. Give some of that money back to the conferences that are putting this product on and have them be incentivized to invest more, to spend more, to platform the sport even more. And so the women, obviously are going to be starting from a different place than the men. Like you said, the tournament units for men's have been happening for a very long time. So for the women, the fund right now it's called the Women's Basketball Fund, it's going to be 15 million in its freshman year right now. So if a team makes the Final four, they earn 1.3 million for their conference. So again, we're not talking apples to apples yet, but in terms of a step forward for women's basketball, I talked to a few coaches about this last week. I think everyone is sort of in the same place they've been for women's basketball for a long time where it's like, let's be happy about this but not feel like the fight is over. It's a step forward, but it's certainly not. The job isn't done yet. And so moving forward, I think it'll be interesting to see, especially if the tournament continues to grow at the rate which many think it will, these numbers three years from now or however many years from now are going to look like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that this is all they're getting and hopefully exponentially kind of grows as well.
- [48:27]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I already feel that way about the TV deal that was signed and that the tournament is still under for the next X number of years. So for the unit payout to be kind of seems like about 10%, a little bit more of what the men are getting already feels too low.
- [48:40]
Sabrina Merchant
But ideally it's roughly the same percentage of the TP deal of what the men are getting. And so in that sense it is equitable. But obviously the total numbers are so significantly different. But like you said, we're still seeing record numbers for women's college basketball regular season games right now. And I'm sure that will translate to the post season too.
- [48:59]
Ben Pickman
I mean, we're talking on a day when West Virginia is playing Iowa State on Fox and USC just played Indiana on NBC. Like not NBC Sports or like Peak or anything like full on linear channel nvc. So there is a obviously a market for these games and I think we're going to see the audiences continue to grow even if it's not the record highs that we saw in the 2024 tournament. But the one thing that I am interested in is if we've already seen the realignment of conferences has created three mega conferences in the ACC, the SEC and the Big Ten. I guess the Big 12 still counts as part of the Big Four, Power Four, whatever you want to say, but like, I do think that, like, as we see these conferences have more success and then they just input more money back into their conferences, everybody else is just going to be in a real pickle because all of the money is going to continue to flow into the same places that already have money. But I guess mega conferences are here to stay for better or worse.
- [49:49]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, speaking of money flowing into the places where it already is, I feel like that's the perfect sort of segue for revenue sharing. This is definitely like the most complicated piece of financial news that has happened in women's basketball over the last week. I've actually spent a ton of time talking to people about this over the last six months or so, simply because it's like no one really knows what's going to happen with revenue sharing. Like, let's lay that out there. The reason why, you know, not a ton of people are going on the record with all of this right now is because you basically talk to everyone and they're like, well, this could happen. It could not. Anything in between these two sort of extremes could happen, or none of the above. It's like no one knows what's going to happen. It's a multiple choice. It's not even a multiple choice test. No one knows what's going to happen here. But what you need to know is that there was a house settlement that basically decided that money should go to college athletes. Roughly $20 million, it's about 20.5 starting this next year. And it's called revenue sharing. So it's money that the universities are getting, that the institution that they're getting that they need to redistribute to the athletes who are helping to make the product that is earning the university's money. This is a system that to anyone who has been watching college sports, makes a lot of sense and is long overdue. But where it gets interesting is that when the house settlement came down, you sort of had different conferences saying different things. There were some conferences that said, okay, well, football is the big money driver. So we're going to pour all of this money into football, you know, $19 million into football or whatever it might be. And then there were other conferences saying, well, our men's basketball conferences, you know, the ACCs of the world, they make a lot of money. So we're going to put more of our money towards men's basketball, obviously women's basketball, with how it's been making money recently. There's, you know, they're also a part of the conversation but in what percentage? And so I think that's as I've been talking to people over the last six months, it's like, like, how are these percentages all going to break down? And roughly no one really knows. Was it going to be 75% to college football? So that was about $15 million, 15% to men's basketball, 5% to women's basketball, and 5% to everything else, maybe. But then you also have universities where other sports really matter, like baseball or women's gymnastics or softball or, you know, wrestling. And so I think all of these questions are sort of out in the air. You know, how is this all going to come to be? Well, on Thursday, the Department of Education decided to throw a wrench in some folks plans of sending $15 million to football programs by saying that this is athletic financial assistance, which means that Title IX applies here. It needs to be given proportionally between men and women athletes, which means maximum about $10 million to football, football to men's sports. I misspoke. But that's honestly how they could give.
- [52:46]
Ben Pickman
All of that to football.
- [52:46]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, yeah, that's how a lot of athletic departments are thinking right now. But this is really like the transfer portal window for college football has already passed. Like, there are college football programs out there who may have already spent more than $10 million on their football teams for next year. And they're sort of scrambling to figure out, like, well, what's going to happen here? And this is where, again, you sort of talk with people and they're like, well, they throw their arms up. They're like, I don't really know because obviously a new administration is coming in. There's going to be new leadership in the Department of education. Linda McMahon has been nominated. We don't know when her confirmation process will be, when her hearing will be, but no one knows exactly what's. What this is going to look like. Frankly, no one knows if the Department of Education might still exist in six months. Like, how is Title IX going to be applied? This is a memo. It wasn't sort of. This isn't a law. This isn't a ruling. This is a memo. It's guidance on what should happen here. And so I think everyone like this memo. I'm not taking it as gospel truth here. Everyone that I've talked to is sort of like, well, this is guidance from an administration that is on its way out the door. We have no idea what's going to happen with this new administration that's coming in the door. And we also know that the NCAA historically like not exactly the fastest acting body. And so it's like, what is any of this going to look like? We don't really know. But I think it's interesting because Charlie Baker had specifically asked for this guidance from the federal government, like let us know how Title IX is going to apply here. And obviously 50, 50 was on the table because for those of us who understand Title nine, that's how it works. It has to be proportional. But we'll see. I think six months from now, you know, all of this goes into effect this July. So there have to be answers soonish. But a lot could change over the next six months.
- [54:36]
Ben Pickman
Okay, so I just have a couple clarifying questions here. This is the $20 million that's per school, right. That's like for all division one up to that amount to 21. Okay. So each school like gets a certain number based on.
- [54:51]
Sabrina Merchant
They can give up to that amount based on their own revenue.
- [54:54]
Ben Pickman
Got it. They can give up to 20.
- [54:55]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, but that's sort of the cap, not every school. And so this is again sort of the haves and the have nots, where you look at the mid major schools that might not have 21 million from the revenue they've generated with sports to give back to college athletes.
- [55:08]
Ben Pickman
Gotcha.
- [55:08]
Sabrina Merchant
But there are obviously programs across the country that will. I think I went to the University of Michigan, you went to Duke. Those are athletic departments that have that money that can funnel it back into their sports programs.
- [55:20]
Ben Pickman
Okay, so we said that it has to be. The guidance says that it has to be split evenly between men's and women's sports. But that doesn't mean that it has to be split evenly among athletes. Correct. So technically like $10 million to football could be two and a half million to your quarterback and then seven and a half million to something else, right?
- [55:40]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So it just has to be proportionally among the sports. So men's sports and women's sports.
- [55:46]
Ben Pickman
Gotcha. Okay.
- [55:47]
Sabrina Merchant
If the quarterback gets two and a half million, you don't have to give two and a half million to the women's point guard or to women's athletes.
- [55:54]
Ben Pickman
Collectively get 10 million. Okay?
- [55:56]
Sabrina Merchant
Yes.
- [55:57]
Ben Pickman
All right. And then there's no like back pay involved here, right? This is just future revenue sharing model, right?
- [56:02]
Sabrina Merchant
No, there is back pay actually. Okay, so there is a small group and this is, and I forget if the guidance was that Title 9 would apply to that as well. I think not. But there is back pay for athletes, recent athletes, not all athletes who've ever played college sports. Apologies to those who may have played in the. In the mid 2000s, you do not apply here. But yes, there is a group of athletes who will be getting some level of back pay from the revenue sharing house.
- [56:28]
Ben Pickman
Gotcha. So, to me, I mean, I understand we're a women's basketball podcast, but the idea of revenue sharing has been so interesting because of how it affects Olympic sports, like the ones that don't necessarily make revenue for their universities, but NCAA basically makes it so that the Olympics can happen. Everybody who comes to the Olympics, whether they're represented in the USA or another country, so many of them get their start in the ncaa. So it does seem like women's Olympic sports are probably going to have a better chance of holding up within the NCAA system than men's. If I'm like, understanding the logic here, just because of all the money that is theoretically going to have to cause.
- [57:06]
Sabrina Merchant
The 50, 50 happens.
- [57:07]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, okay, interesting.
- [57:09]
Sabrina Merchant
I think you do think about things like, you know, not necessarily gymnastics, because a lot of the Olympic gymnasts, at least on the women's side, qualify before they go to college. Although not all. But, yeah, I think swimming and diving is a good example. Track is a really great example. Like, there are all of these sports in the Olympics that, you know, the Olympic sport specifically, it does feel like this is. This is a world where women's Olympic sports, if the split happens, 50, 50 more golds for everyone, basically, because it's not like you said, it's not just Team usa, it's. It's athletes from all over the world that come and compete.
- [57:46]
Ben Pickman
Fascinating. Okay, so again, this is guidance. We don't know the actual rules that have to be implemented until this summer. You said July. July1. I guess the fiscal year starts July.
- [57:56]
Sabrina Merchant
It's like, who knows? Honestly, we can talk about this now. And I think it's good for people to just sort of start acquainting themselves with what is going on with the understanding that everyone I've talked to, it's like we have a conversation. I'm like, okay, so this is. This is kind of what's happening. They're like, well, maybe. Well, maybe I feel like this is the caveat of everything with revenue sharing because it's like, even I had people texting me, like, oh, my gosh, are you gonna write about the memo and what this means? And we can talk about what it could mean, but it's not what it means.
- [58:30]
Ben Pickman
Don't really know what it means yet.
- [58:31]
Sabrina Merchant
We don't know what it means. What it could mean, like you pointed out, really, for volleyball is another sport we haven't touched on yet. Huge up and coming sport in terms of especially television viewership we've seen in.
- [58:44]
Ben Pickman
The U.S. yeah, there's three professional leagues now on the women's volleyball side in the usa.
- [58:49]
Sabrina Merchant
I think in terms of like, the crest of the wave that's coming. And like, same thing with, like, softball. Like, obviously professional leagues in the US but also the women's College World Series is a huge event every year and sort of what this money could mean for, you know, more regular season, you know, promotion or viewership or whatever sort of how that money is used to promote these athletes and these teams be fascinating. 10 million is a lot of money.
- [59:15]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, 10 million is a lot of money. I actually think it's four volleyball leagues now if you include athletes Unlimited. But yeah, there's definitely a draw on these up and coming women's sports. Yeah, the transfer portal part of it is so interesting to me too, because you think about it like, Michigan just brought in this big quarterback recruit and it's like, did you promise him a certain amount of money thinking that you would have 20 million at your disposal to pay all of your men's athletes? And now that's no longer the case.
- [59:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, and I think everyone's expecting lawsuits from like, sure, every ankle. Like, no matter what happens here. Because agreements have already been made. Right. Like these people who have transferred in the transfer portal, like, maybe some of them did it without a dollar sign attached to it, but a lot of people did. Same thing with women's college basketball. And I think this is on top of sort of the nil deals that can still exist in this era. And you hear from folks that what they're hearing is that athletic departments are still saying, we'll complement the revenue sharing with nil deals. The difference now is that up until this point, the nil world has sort.
- [60:19]
Ben Pickman
Of been the Wild west, completely unregulated, basically.
- [60:21]
Sabrina Merchant
Yes. There aren't strings attached to it. And so now there are. The NCAA is going to have to approve it. And so if you're giving $400,000 to a basketball player, men's or women's, in terms of an nil deal proper, you know, someone at the NCAA has to say, like, okay, the amount of nil this athlete is doing, whether that's. However that looks $400,000 is justified here, which again, we're talking about guidance. Like, I don't know if the NCAA has given guidance in terms of, like, this is what a 0 to $100,000 nil deal looks like this is what a 1 to 200,000 nil deal looks like. Like this is all very much living and breathing and moving. And two weeks from now could be totally different given that the administration is changing over.
- [61:09]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. So one more clarifying question here. The NIL payments are not regulated, like, in terms of Title ix, right? It's not.
- [61:17]
Sabrina Merchant
Not currently.
- [61:18]
Ben Pickman
Okay, gotcha. So the guidance that the Department of Education just released, like, it just says that there has to be some sort of monitoring of NIL payments. Is that like, what.
- [61:27]
Sabrina Merchant
No. So the memo that was released by the Department of Education is about the revenue sharing.
- [61:32]
Ben Pickman
Okay, gotcha.
- [61:32]
Sabrina Merchant
NIL is separate. So NIL will then be sort of driven in a different lane, parallel to revenue sharing, I think. But that will go separately, sort of through a protocol of NCAA approval, to my understanding.
- [61:46]
Ben Pickman
That sounds like it's going to go supremely well.
- [61:49]
Sabrina Merchant
Again, the NCAA well known for fast judgment and agile change. So we'll see how that's.
- [61:56]
Ben Pickman
That's the motto that is written right underneath the letters.
- [61:59]
Sabrina Merchant
That's in Indianapolis. Right? They have that in Indianapolis. Ncaa fast moving, agile with change. Yeah, so we'll see. I think all of this is. I'm sure if Charlie Baker is at the Final Four this year, this will be a hot topic of conversation. And obviously, so much can change in the next three and a half months before the tournament and before the Final Four. But, yeah, I mean, a world in which $10 million goes to up to $10 million per university goes to women's sports is obviously a really exciting one. And if that does happen, I think we're gonna have a lot more to write about.
- [62:30]
Ben Pickman
Okay, just one last thing. Every school can pay up to 20 million. Right. So does that mean that if you choose to use $10 million on men's sports, you have to use $10 million on women's sports?
- [62:40]
Sabrina Merchant
That's my understanding, yes. Again, like, if this goes through and so this year it's going to be. It's escalating. So this year it's 20.5 million. And then moving forward, it goes up, obviously, every year because revenue increases. Yeah, right. Revenue increases will go up. But, yeah, so it's 20.5 million this year. So technically, 10.25 million would be the max.
- [63:01]
Ben Pickman
Gotcha.
- [63:01]
Sabrina Merchant
So the memo.
- [63:02]
Ben Pickman
If you want to spend money on men's sports, then you have to spend.
- [63:05]
Sabrina Merchant
Half a month on women's money.
- [63:06]
Ben Pickman
It's not like you can just say, we're going to use Half on men's and just save the rest. Got it.
- [63:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. That would not be proportional. So they're looking at it like athletic financial assistance, which is sort of, you know, scholarship money. So it's the way that we sort of have seen scholarships, but we have also seen universities evade those sort of Title nine. Right.
- [63:26]
Ben Pickman
Because the entire history of NCAA is compliance.
- [63:29]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, when I think of NCAA sports, I think of true compliance. Again, I think it's important for us to talk about this. I think this is very in the weeds. I appreciate that we have podcast listeners that will probably geek out over the summer episode, and folks who are like, thank God they're finally talking about this. You know, I've been reporting on this for a while, and we'll have a story on the site at some point. But I think that's part of the challenge is that so much of this is, like, asterisked, where it's like, oh, this might happen. This could happen potentially. So you sort of have to caveat everything you're talking about.
- [64:01]
Ben Pickman
Gotcha. All right, well, I guess we'll get back to college basketball games next week, but for now, I think this is very useful. Dive into just how the world of the sport could change over the next six months, because that will obviously affect everything around women's basketball, including which players end up at which schools, which affects.
- [64:22]
Sabrina Merchant
The product on the court, the powers across the conference. It sort of feels like women's basketball for so long was in this place where it was like you knew who was going to be good. You knew where the best players were going to go. You knew sort of XYZ what to expect. And it feels like in the last few years, sort of so much has changed that you wonder, and four years from now, what could it possibly look like, given all of these potential changes on the horizon? It's exciting.
- [64:46]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. Well, that's been a very enlightening conversation, Shantelle, and I trust that everybody enjoyed Ben and Xena also talking about Unrivaled, which had a, you know, another really interesting financial discussion to be had there. But, yeah, a big week. Lots of money in women's sports.
- [65:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, yeah. Lots of money in women's sports in sports right now.
- [65:05]
Ben Pickman
All right, back to you, Xena.
- [65:06]
Zena Kaida
All right, so it definitely seems like there's still a lot more out there to learn about this, but I'm very happy for Sabrina and Chatel to kind of get us on the right path. As always. Appreciate you all tuning in today. Ben, shout out to you from Miami, Sabrina and Chantelle, of course, always bringing us the insights and the facts. I want to say thank you guys to you for listening to us and tuning in. Appreciate all the feedback that we are constantly getting. We're just grateful for it and as always want to encourage you. You gotta keep doing this. You gotta keep learning, you gotta keep watching, you gotta keep listening. You gotta keep loving the game because things like unrivaled don't happen without that. That's how you keep growing the game. All right guys, until next time.
- [65:56]
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Chantelle Jennings
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- [67:15]
Ben Pickman
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.
- [67:19]
Zena Kaida
Here's a show that we recommend. Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad.
- [67:25]
Ben Pickman
A place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves.
- [67:28]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Paige Desorbo. I'm Hannah Berner. Welcome to the squad.
- [67:32]
Ben Pickman
Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time.
- [67:36]
Sabrina Merchant
But of course we can't be managed.
- [67:38]
Ben Pickman
So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling.
- [67:41]
Sabrina Merchant
We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or.
- [67:51]
Ben Pickman
Wherever you get your podcasts. Acast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.