← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Unrivaled Rosters, Project B’s Big Bucks + College Hoops Hot Takes
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- [00:00]
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- [01:27]
Zena Keda
What up everyone and welcome to no off season presented by ebay. I'm Zena Caeda.
- [01:31]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [01:33]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [01:35]
Zena Keda
And today on the show we are nearing the end of the first week of college hoops and there are already some questions this season that have us talking, debating and just plain wondering what's going to happen.
- [01:46]
Sabrina Merchant
We'll see.
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Zena Keda
And some of those questions we're going to talk a little bit about that on a new segment that we are.
- [01:51]
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Kicking off called this or that, where.
- [01:54]
Zena Keda
We discuss some intriguing questions about the season and predict what we think could happen. But first, Unrivaled tried to take the spotlight yesterday. They officially unveiled their 2026 season rosters, marking a major step in its expansion with the league growing from six to eight teams and boosting the player pool to include 54 and six developmental player spots. Sabrina, there was a whole show, it was a little bit of a spectacle. Break it down for us. First, how are the team shifting in 2026? And then, you know, what are we looking at in terms of the roster sh from last season?
- [02:28]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So if you were hoping to just see like, you know, redux of the Lunar Owls or, you know, Rose, you might be a little disappointed because there is a wholesale changeover from the 2025 rosters. On unrivaled, each playoff team got a chance to keep two players. Each non playoff team got to keep one player and obviously the two expansion teams are starting from scratch. So there is a lot of player movement. And on Wednesday. Yes, on Wednesday. Days of the week are starting to floor together here unrivaled, you know, showcase its new rosters for the 2020. And I mean I think it's pretty clear who the fan favorites are going to be heading into season two. It's going to be Breeze with Paige Beckers and Cameron Brink and Dominique Malonga, Rekia Jackson and Kate Martin. Right. Like this is, this is a team for the youngins. I do love the reuniting of Dominique Malonga with her coach Noel Quinn. But yeah, things have been significantly moved around and I was hoping we could see the overall draft order. You know, I'd love to know like what order coaches drafted, what players in. I thought we were going to get that one unrivaled tease, like all of the shots of the coaches in the draft room. But unfortunately we only got to see the final rosters which is, you know, whatever.
- [03:37]
Zena Keda
And here we are, we've got note for next year.
- [03:40]
Sabrina Merchant
Team six coming into 2026.
- [03:42]
Zena Keda
Okay. All right. And so tell us a little bit about Ben, like what you're expecting with this shakeup. I know Sabrina just said Breeze. I could tell that that was a fan favorite. It's the youngins, right. It's all these new stars. There's a lot of following from that persp. But looking at some of these teams, I know there were some comments around Nafisa Collier not being able to get a squad and you know, basically get the Lunar Owls. Again, just a little bit of shakeup there. Any teams that stood out for you in terms of how drastic their shakeup was or another team that could compete with Breeze?
- [04:14]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean I'm not necessarily looking at Breeze as a contender in this league. I think it is a group of primarily young players plus Ari McDonald's fandom.
- [04:22]
Zena Keda
I mean.
- [04:22]
Ben Pickman
Okay, sounds good. We should throw Ari McDonald's name also. She is the sixth member of Breeze, the one non particularly young player on that team. Yeah, I mean I think the teams. There's a lot of intrigue as you go up and down these rosters. I think with some of the teams that made the playoffs, they did try and keep some of the core kind of guard big combinations the same. I thought an interesting decision about protections versus non protections came with the Lunar Owls that you mentioned. Xena, that was a team. Nafisa Collier obviously was going to be protected. She is a co founder of the league. Wherever she wants to play. Presumably she is going to play. But on that team, that team chose to select Skyler Diggins, D.J. sackman, the coach of that team and not Alicia Gray. I thought that was one of the more interesting changes knowing how great of.
- [05:07]
Sabrina Merchant
A season Lynx teammate Courtney Williams, also true.
- [05:11]
Ben Pickman
But I guess, I guess I go to Gray because of just what a WNBA season she had being a top five MVP finisher. She goes Alicia Gray to Mist where she'll now play with Brianna Stewart, Alana Smith, Veronica Burton, Arike Gumbawale and Lee Yaru, who I think Sabrina and I both are very excited to see how she fits into this unrivaled the format. I think that team is really interesting. And then there were some teams where we saw more continuity compared to some others. So a team like what Vinyl for instance, still has Ryan Howard, Derick Hamby and Ray Burrell. The Rose still have Chelsea Gray, Kalia Copper, Lexi hall and I believe Azra Stevens was on that team last year as well.
- [05:50]
Sabrina Merchant
So that's returning players four of six and they were the title winners.
- [05:53]
Ben Pickman
Right.
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Zena Keda
So yeah, that was going to be my next question was like some of these teams actually are bringing back a lot of talent and it actually made me wonder a little bit more about the multi year deals. I mean the draft has nothing to do with the multi year deals. But just thinking about the fact that it does help if you're going into the draft knowing that someone has signed up for multi years. So how did that work out? I know we've talked about this and written about this, but I don't think I realized that people had signed to some multi year deals.
- [06:20]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. So close to 30 players who are taking part in unrivaled this year are taking part on multi year contracts that span at least through next season. And so I think it will be really interesting to watch what happens next year. We should be focusing on the present. We're already thinking about the present. But I think it's a super fair question Zen about how do things change going forward and do they start to build and create more? I don't know, continuity year over year. Because I do think that was something they really did think a lot about heading into this season. How do you balance expansion, competitive takeaways from what you learned a year ago and also wanting to build fan affinity. Right. And like those fan ties not just with players but with clubs. Because I think one of the big questions that I know I have as it relates to unrivaled and kind of trying to see how they continue to grow From a viewership and business standpoint, is is this a league where a fan will start to really invest in a particular team? Will they start to care how the Laces do against the Lunar Owls on a Friday night's game or on a Saturday game, or will they care much more? Just about how does Marina Mabry play, or how does Jordan Canada play, or how does Aaliyah Boston play or whoever their kind of favorite players are? You know, is this players first? How is that w player that I love playing in unrivaled, or do you start to build that connection with the actual team? And I think this year in some respects, they're starting not at square one because there is some continuity, but there very much is a reset going on in terms of how these rosters are constructed. But I think you ask a really valid question, Zena, about going forward. Will there be even more continuity with so many players coming back? And, you know, I do think with the desire to. To build up the brands and the affinities with each of those teams, the uniforms themselves.
- [08:08]
Zena Keda
I'm actually really happy you brought that up because one of the things I noticed on the Unrivaled website yesterday when I was preparing for the unveiling of these teams, it was interesting that you could create, and I think it's really cool, but you can create your dream club at Unrivaled. You can go to their website and pull players from the available pool, et cetera. And sure, fantasy is a thing. You could do that technically in fantasy and go through your draft, et cetera. But it does feel like right now the focal point is on the individual players and being able to just like create your dream team and be able to support them regardless of what club they're with. All up and down my timeline, people are like, dang, I was a vinyl fan, but maybe I might be a breeze fan now or I have to be a high fan now or whatever. And so there might be a little bit of transitionary fandom between these players as they go back and forth between teams. But Sabrina, there's one aspect that a lot of folks are very curious about and it is important considering there were a lot of injuries throughout the season of Unrivaled last season and there were a lot of call ups. You could say, well, this year they have a developmental pool filled with a lot of young players. Tell us a little bit about that. Who can we expect to see in that? And then also how will they be utilized throughout the season?
- [09:20]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So I'm sure people noticed last year that there were what Unrivaled called relief players who came in and you know, sort of subbed into whatever team needed an injury replacement at the time. Natisha Heidman was one of those players and Alyssa Smith was one of those players. Kiki Jefferson, who is not a WNB player, actually was one of those players that was nice to see her playing in American professional league. But Unrivaled has tried to get in front of that this year by including a developmental pool of six younger players who get to experience all of the benefits at Unrivaled, like get all of the coaching and medical and physical therapy and just the experience of being in Miami with all of these other great WMA players working on their games and then they're already there in the event that, you know, a team needs an injury call up. So that's, you know, a group of younger players like Leticia Me here, Ziah James, Haley Van Lith, Mikayla Timpson, Haley Jones and got him blanking on the sixth person on this list.
- [10:12]
Ben Pickman
Emily Angsler.
- [10:13]
Sabrina Merchant
Emily Angsler. There we go. So yeah, now if somebody, one of the clubs goes down to four players and needs somebody to step in for a game, you don't have to call somebody up and negotiate a contract and make sure that they can come down, right? You already have them there, they're already ready to play three on three. And I think it's just much better for the health of the game and it's going to be easier for everyone to take account of. Like I forgot one of the replacement players last year was Benija Laney Hamilton who ended up coming and then getting hurt, you know, when she joined. So I think this will just be better for everybody involved. It's an awesome experience for those players to get to be a part of Unrivaled, even if they aren't on one of the A clubs. And I'm sure they'll be used plenty because like this is a style of basketball that's pretty demanding and even though there aren't back to backs anymore, like I imagine even just like absences, right? Like we saw Sabrina Nescu like go on a bit of A tour and like not be available for some games. Like I'm sure that'll happen for some players where they're just not available for every week of the season. And that's where you get, you know, an opportunity to see one of the younger players step in.
- [11:07]
Zena Keda
It's very cool to see Unrivaled literally operate like a startup. Like here are the stopgaps Here are the issues, like let's solve for this next year. I mean, this is a really thoughtful expansion and a really cool like ecosystem that they're creating for the all of the players, but especially these younger players that get that access, they'll have the access to not only the players, but we saw last year just even, you know, Lisa Leslie being in the building and working with the likes of an Angel Reese and just having these type of folks that are working on the broadcast, et cetera, just around the ecosystem. It's just great exposure. There's another kind of startup league that we gotta talk about. We've talked about Unrival shaking things up. And now there's another brand new women's basketball league that is on the horizon. It is tentatively called Project and it's officially tipping off in November 2026. So they announced this week that Seattle Storm star forward Neko Guimike, also the president of the wnbpa, the players association, she's officially signed to this league and she is the first player to become publicly known to join the league ahead of its launch. Now with her role as the president of the players union and ongoing CBA negotiations, this adds some layers to this conversation, y'.
- [12:19]
Sabrina Merchant
All.
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Zena Keda
Uh, this is a very interesting development. So we talked about this earlier in, you know, this fall when it was first discussed. Mike Vorkanov contributed as well to this. Okay, Sabrina, so you have to lay this out for us because we've written about this before, but this new signing, this is adding a little bit of another dimension to this. So what's happening with Project B and what does NECA joining Project B mean for this particular league and the sport as a whole?
- [12:47]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so Project B, on the surface, not a whole lot different than the idea of Unrivaled in that it's an off season league from the WNBA where players can, you know, get compensated at a very high level and get equity stakes within the league, which is something that Unrivaled offered to its initial players in 2025. And you know, compensation, owning a stake of the business is definitely a big talking point with WNBA players right now as they're engaging in collective bargaining negotiations. So Project B just, you know, set the stage, is going to be six teams of 11 players. They are playing five on five. So different from Unrivaled in that. And the idea is they're going to be playing seven two week tournaments around the world, so at cities in Asia, Europe and the Americas. And even though NECA is the first player who is publicly associated with this new league. Their chief of basketball, Elena Beard, former WNBA player, great WNBA player, has said that they have signed multiple current all WNBA players to their league. So I'll get into the details of that later because I think it demands a little dissection. But NECA being involved with this league is interesting, like you said, because she is currently negotiating the CBA of the wnba. I'll say that members of the WNBA PA executive committee are already involved with Unrivaled. First Vice President Kelsey Plumb on Unrivaled. Nafeesa Collier and Brianna Stewart are vice presidents of the PA and they are both co founders of Unrivaled. So that one of the players on the committee is involved in a separate league. Not new to the process. Right. But the fact that Neko Gumuke is involved just adds to the complications, I would say, because she is the president of the Players Association.
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Zena Keda
Yeah.
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Sabrina Merchant
Okay.
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Zena Keda
Also, shout out Lena Beard, Duke legend. By the way, I definitely remember watching her growing up, but went on to do some great things in the wnba, has a great pedigree. And I think you know her at the helm of this NECA joining and becoming the public face of this and already speaking out to say it was important to her to be able to get equity in a league and the money aspect being important as well. Then this gets a little interesting. A lot of folks have a lot of questions about who's investing in this league. The fact that there is this element of Saudi ties to this league, break that part down. I think there needs to be clarity for what's been reported on those connections.
- [15:01]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I think there is a desire to have more clarity. And right now there is a lack of clear clarity as to some of those connections. You know, I think that is just the kind of reality of the state of this league in this business that, you know, had kind of an unusual launch, too. If we're going to zoom out and think about it, like just to put out a story and to suddenly pop up an Instagram page. And I know there had been rumblings, but I thought that was noteworthy too. But I mean, there's a number of notable people in the sports space who are either committed investors or have been named as investors. So Candace Parker, who interestingly also broadcasts unrivaled games, I think that is an interesting thing to flag. But Candace Parker, Novak Djokovic, Sloan Stevens and Steve Young, the former San Francisco 49ers quarterback, are all some of the group of investors that people know about, you know, the most interesting or the One that I think has given people the most pause or points of curiosity is what is the, you know, Saudi Arabia's sovereign wealth fund involvement here? That is a big question here. And I know Mike Vorkanov and Sabrina and what they wrote like, they say that one of the league's future partners, Sala, is owned by, you know, the Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund. And we have seen the Saudi wealth fund, the public, the pif, get involved in other sports, most notably live golf in recent years too, and spark a whole conversation as it relates to sports watching, you know, and how is that country kind of utilizing western sports to change its public perception and image of the country? I think that is one of the conversations that will be sparked and that we'll look into. I think there is still, I mean, Sabrina, I don't know if you want to say anything else about what you understand about the funding the league, but I think that is really the core question. It is also founded by former Facebook executive Grady Burnett and a Skype co founder as well. So those are some of the notables who are involved in this project, among others.
- [16:47]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. I think one of the keys to note here is that the public arm of Project B has been very clear to say that there is not Saudi funding into this league. But when you have a partner in SELA who is presumably going to be the broadcast arm of your league, they've talked about streaming games around the world and this is an entertainment company that will be helping produce the games. Presumably, I would imagine that's their involvement in the league. Like maybe you're not directly funneling money from the pif, but you are also using a company that is funded by the PIF to support the business of your league. So I think the distinction is kind of, I don't know, negligible in my personal opinion. It is worth noting that, you know, NNECA announced her decision to join the league on Instagram and the WNBA PA like reposted her post and was like, you know, Queen Neca here. Right. Like joining the league. So it is something that they are co signing that she is doing in her WNBA off season.
- [17:39]
Zena Keda
And I know that that was one of the things that was called out a lot fans on social media as well was wondering why would the players association, why would neca, why would anyone want to be involved in something that potentially has ties to the Saudi Arabia sovereign wealth fund, knowing Saudi Arabia's human rights violations? And so this is going to be very interesting as more information comes out about the actual tentacles of Saudi Arabia into this league, particularly from the perspective of actually challenging the WNBA and being a product that people want to watch and people want to support. So verdict is still out. But Ben, any last thoughts on that one?
- [18:16]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I think one other interesting kind of, I don't know, complicating factor or just thing I've thought about as it relates to who is funding WNBA player off season experiences like that is often a question that has come up over the last 10 to, I would say 15, 20 years as it relates to the global, you know, women's basketball landscape as professional women's basketball players have gone overseas to play in different countries. Right. I'm not trying to justify the piff's potential involvement here or not, but I think it is interesting when you compare it to say, some of the clubs in Russia that some notable players have played on. Right. So you have a club like Spartac Moscow, which is one of the former powers great clubs in the Russian League and in European competition that has had many of your kind of favorite WNBA players over the 2000s and 2010s played for that club. Well, the owner of that club was someone named Sabtai Kalmanovic. He was notably and famously a KGB spy who, you know, spent multiple years in prison and was eventually assassinated, I believe in broad daylight because of, I don't know, because of look it up. I guess it's unclear the exact reasons as to why he was assassinated, but like there are figures of intrigue and conflict and controversy that have, you know, he being one of them, have supported women's basketball players offseason's experiences and paid them lucrative amounts of money in the past. And now potentially we're seeing another example of that again. And I think that is interesting yet again.
- [19:43]
Zena Keda
If you're curious about what Bette is referencing or just curious about what that space looks like because it's such a great point, check out Diana Taurasi's documentary that I believe is on Amazon. I watched it on the plane, so yes, okay, so on Amazon, she tells the story, Subur tells the story of an owner that absolutely adored them, respected them, gave them all the resources possible. But did they know where that all came from? No. Do they have full clarity as to where all that came from? No. But they did appreciate the space that he created. And so this is where it gets a little bit dicey. When you are excited about the growth of women's basketball and you're excited about the fact that people want to be involved, but you do have to protect the integrity of the sport and the integrity of the people that are finding themselves within it. We'll keep you guys posted on all of this. Of course. That's our job. I love Sabrina and Ben because they gonna bring the facts and that's, that's exactly what we need to do when it comes to these type of stories especially. But now that's enough of this pro WNBA off season stuff. Okay? There's a whole college season that's happening and we got some good questions. This or that coming right up.
- [20:52]
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Zena Keda
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- [21:24]
Ben Pickman
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Sabrina Merchant
Yes.
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Sabrina Merchant
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Zena Keda
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- [22:30]
Zena Keda
All righty. So we got a new segment called this or that and it's the women's college hoops edition. I'm excited about this. This allows us to talk about a little few different things than what we've typically been discovering around this new season that's upon us. Now we're going to throw out some questions and we're going to pick which option we prefer. There are no wrong answers, just our takes, just our observations. So, Ben, I'm going to start with the first one and I'm going to start with you. Who is more likely to break South Carolina's run at the top of the sec, Oklahoma or lsu? Or do you have another team that you think is going to take that long shot and spice it up?
- [23:11]
Ben Pickman
Well, I want to first say South Carolina. I want to set up just what their run of dominance in this conference has been because it has been a very long time since they have not won either the conference tournament or a share of the conference regular season title. Right. We saw, for instance, in a year like 2021, that is the only time since 2020 where they were not conference regular season champions. However, that year they did win the conference tournament. And if you go back to 2014, it just basically looks like championship, championship, championship, championship, championship in some form or fashion. The odd year out being 2019, a year in which South Carolina did not take home either a conference tournament title or a regular season title. That is the one season in which they were totally void of a championship. So South Carolina, in some form or fashion, been running this conference for about a decade. So to your questions of who do I think I mean, look, I think yet again, the SEC is going to be the deepest conference in the country. I think that is what makes it so exciting. And you throw out Oklahoma and lsu of those two teams, I personally like Oklahoma as the school to potentially unearth or upset South Carolina at the top. We've talked about Reagan Beers and what she has done in the past at Oregon State. Aliyah Chavez is someone we have talked about as well. Just among one of the best potential freshmen in the country who's coming in to make an impact. I also like that they do have some experience around her. Sahara Williams, Peyton Verholz. They have a coach in Jenny Branchek who is a great offensive mind. The long shot, which is not a long shot, is Texas. They're a top five team. And frankly, I like Texas over both of these other options as the team to beat South Carolina here. But of the two you have given me, I like OU over lsu, but I like Texas over both of them.
- [25:07]
Zena Keda
I like this breakdown. I think Texas definitely has the depth and the continuity to keep going. I like. I think I actually like LSU over Oklahoma, though. I don't know if I like LSU though, over Texas. This is weird, but I'm just thinking about LSU1, you got Plaude Johnson coming back. You got Mikayla Williams coming back. Mylasia full Wiley, explosive scores. Right. And then you've got this elite defense. They are such a defense into offense, transition type of team. Then you've also got the fact that they've got this experience as well. Right. Oklahoma, yes, they, they found some success recently, but not quite like LSU in the last few years under Kim Mulkey. And I really do think that between having the, the turnover margins that they have with other teams making teams feel relentless, they make, they go on runs and completely just weather teams down. I do feel like I haven't, I haven't quite seen that out of Oklahoma just yet. So I think I might have to go with LSU out of the two of them. But I do like this Texas pick, you know, Madison Booker and Rory Harmon. I'm not counting them out. Sabrina, where are you at with.
- [26:17]
Sabrina Merchant
So just to give, like the listeners, a little peek in the reason why, you know, when we were framing this question, didn't include Texas because Texas actually won a share of the SEC title last year. I don't know if you remember the, the coin flip drama heading into the SEC tournament involved Texas and South Carolina sharing, you know, a piece of the SEC title. So this isn't to diminish Texas. It's just who can break through in a way that they haven't previously, which Texas technically has. I mean, I think Ben's right about Texas having the best shot here. You know, I look at the way South Carolina is constructed this year and they're starting three guards this season in a way that they haven't in previous years. You know, Tessa Johnson, Raven Johnson and Teniah Ladson are forming that backcourt. And I look at that and I think, oh, my God, look at the offensive firepower. And also, oh, my God, who is supposed to guard Madison Booker, right? Like, there's no Brie hall here to take care of that assignment anymore. But, you know, setting aside that because the this or that, West Oklahoma and lsu, I think I'm going to stick with lsu, too. I think just the combination of effectiveness on both sides of the ball is what appeals to me for LSU more so than in Oklahoma. You know, their front court is a little bit more unproven. But I look at what Zakiyah Johnson's been able to during the exhibition games and even this first game of the season, and like, she just looks like the next Anissa Morrow plugging into what LSU is trying to do. When you add that to Kate Colville coming in from Notre Dame to actually give them some size in the front court and what a grace Knox can do as a freshman. Like, I just think that there's so much more defensive versatility and just like defensive options on this lineup in a way that Oklahoma has just never really proven honestly in recent years. Like I realized last season was the first, I think the first season that they moved from the Big 12 to the SEC. So it was a bit of a jump for them in terms of the style of basketball that they were playing. But this is like what, this is what LSU does. Like, they are born and bred in the sec. They understand how this works. And admittedly, they have not beaten South Carolina under Kim Mulkey's tenure. Like it is a hill they have yet to overcome. To be fair, most teams have not beaten South Carolina during Kimoki's tenure at lsu. Right? Texas beat them once. I think the last SEC game they lost before that was to Missouri during December of 2021. So it's been a long time since South Carolina's actually lost SEC games. And to that effect, I think the most obvious answer here is nobody really, but the firepower LSU has, just the positional versatility of that front court I think gives them the best chance, if anyone, to break through.
- [28:29]
Ben Pickman
Do you know what's so interesting though about your vote of saying that nobody might be the answer to this question, Sabrina? It's that the coaches in the SEC were asked preseason to rank the finishes for the top 16 teams in the conference. And do you guys want to know who is number one voted as voted by the coaches?
- [28:46]
Zena Keda
Texas.
- [28:47]
Ben Pickman
It was Texas. It was not South Carolina. And I think that is kind of interesting as again, you never know who or why a coach is voting the way that they vote. Preseason and preseason rankings sure as hell don't mean anything when you get into actual gameplay and we start to see how the season is going. But it is an, it is a slightly notable data point, just about what some peers around the conference think of this South Carolina program. And maybe you know about the South Carolina program in relation to this Texas program. I mean, I think what's so interesting too about the SEC is you can go all the way down. Vanderbilt, say is another top 1020 program in the AP preseason poll. They're voted number 8th in order to finish by the coaches poll in the sec. Like you can make an argument they might have the best player in the conference. And Mikayla Blake's right. Like if you told me that Vanderbilt was one of these surprise stories, you know, significant risers that ends its season in the Elite Eight, Like, I wouldn't be totally shocked. That, again, just speaks to the depth of the conference. That. Yeah, it's why the SEC is, you know, basically like professional women's basketball in training. It's another.
- [29:58]
Sabrina Merchant
It's another developmental pool we haven't even mentioned. Tennessee, who entered the season as a top 10 preseason team. Right. Admittedly, loses their first game of the season to NC State, but a lot of talent in this conference.
- [30:09]
Ben Pickman
Yep.
- [30:09]
Zena Keda
And that, I'm not gonna lie to you, Tennessee's defense, that full court pressure is actually what made me think of lsu, because I was like, who would I not want to face if I'm on offense? And it's just Tennessee just being all up in your grill. But LSU also has that ability to do that. Oklahoma's perimeter defense, you know, they keep teams pretty low, under 35% from 3. That's great. But I'm talking about who is going to make you feel like you are doing a full court drill at all times. Lsu, Tennessee, definitely feel that. Okay, let's dive on to some younger talent on the court for this next this or that. Sabrina, I'm going to start with you this time because, Ben, you started last time. Question is, which team has the better young core, North Carolina or Michigan? And also, obviously, feel free to throw out another squad if you think they're better this or that.
- [31:00]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So again, the impetus for this was teams that had really good freshmen in 24, 25, but who actually does the job of taking the step forward. And we've talked about how difficult this is. Right. Like a year ago at this time, we would have said Iowa State. It was a clear choice, you know, to take a step forward with their freshman class. And we saw that stagnation is also a possibility. Right. It's not necessarily that. You're just going to immediately develop in the same track that players developed during their freshmen. So you look at Michigan, you've got Olivia Olson, Mila Holloway, Silas Swords, just a dynamite trio of talent who scored, I want to say, like 40 points combined per game their freshman seasons. And it's a good group to bring back, especially in a conference like the Big Ten, which has a lot of offensive firepower. And then you look at Carolina, where they had the likes of Laney Grant and Sierra Toomey, who I think was a sophomore, but kind of didn't play much her freshman year. And then Layla hall, and they're supplemented by Alina Arnisalo, who comes in from UCLA to step into that start. Starting point guard. Role for the Tar Heels. And, you know, as much as I looked at both of these teams, I kept thinking, like, I hate that I'm just doing the this or that. And, like, I don't want to pick either of them. But I was just watching Nebraska this week and Britt Prince, my goodness, a freshman taking a step forward. Like, it's really interesting to think about what that core could do for the Cornhuskers. You know, you've got Prince, you've got Petra Bozan, you've got Amia Hargrove and Claire Johnson, who I think they combined for, let's see, 55 points in their first game of the season. Like, that's a good sophomore group there too. And I think if I'm looking at young cores to take a step forward like, that Nebraska team was a real pain in the butt to play against for a lot of Big Ten opponents last year. And, you know, the way Brit plays, just the pace, which, like, they run that offense, I think it's really interesting and that's sort of the team that I have my eye on.
- [32:50]
Zena Keda
Okay, Nebraska, throwing us for a loop there. I gotta go with UNC for the reasons you laid out, but particularly Alina Arnasala. Coming into that mix is really exciting. Like, I still remember her game against South Carolina. I think she dropped 13, but just the confidence with her game. And I particularly remember our friend and co host of the show, Chantelle Jennings, being like, who is this? Like, we don't. I don't think a lot of people knew just how crafty she was with the ball. And adding that into this mix with UNC's offense and the fact that they like to run, I. I think that I'm going to have to choose UNC for my young corp. But Ben, what's your this or that? Who are you choosing?
- [33:32]
Ben Pickman
No, this is good. I mean, we don't talk about what we're going to say beforehand. And so I'm going to take Michigan as the trio or the young group that, that I like the most here. I like you guys going off the board and you going with unc, Zena. And it is for a lot of reasons that Sabrina said, I mean, Silas Ward's being one of them. Mila Holloway, like, you saw it in their season opener and everyone should steer clear of just. Just reading too much from season openers. But you did see kind of a poise and an air of confidence with how she controlled the game. I think she had like 21, 8 and 5, a very good way to start the season. They beat Canisius not many times this season. We'll say they're gonna force more turnovers 45 than give up points in 40. That's not a ratio that I think we can expect to hold but I just do like what Michigan can be as this group develops. I mean Sabrina talked about swords, she talked about Olson Holloway. Again they really need to improve on the defensive end of the floor. That was where among other places they were, you know, outside the top 100 dash in terms of defensive rating last year. And so there is a lot of room to improve on that end. Again, forcing 45 turnovers and a non conference opener is a good sign but I'm not going to read too much into it. I just like there's a lot of switchability. There's a lot of players on this roster who you know our 511 R6 feet are six one. They don't have kind of the six five six six big that you look at South Carolina or Texas. Some of the programs Reagan beers at Oklahoma that we just mentioned, they don't have that kind of post player in terms of size. I guess we'll have to see. You know Ashley Sofolkanic is the kind of big name to watch there a transfer from Bucknell. But like I just like the versatility. I like the switchability. It is also a Michigan team that has expectations for the first time in a while. This is their second highest preseason ranking in program history. So for a program that you think should be a potential contender or might have that kind of pedigree, especially in a lot of other sports too. This is new territory. But I like the continuity in this group and you know I'm going to take Michigan as the young quorum I have my eye on.
- [35:40]
Zena Keda
That's one of the things I love most about Michigan is that they have this very motion heavy offense because everyone is basically a big guard. But it does expose them on the defensive end. Like sure they can switch but when you're talking about bigs in the paint being able to back them down, it does leave them a little bit exposed, especially on pick and rolls and things of that sort. But yes, good job guys. We officially are all on different pages for this one. I like this, this or that one. All right, let's keep it going.
- [36:09]
Ben Pickman
Can we say too to have notable players with international experience and I should have said it like I think swords is somewhat she's someone to keep an eye on. She's only 19 years old but she is playing, you know, often up with the Canadian national team in a way that so often we talk about the American players. I know Sabrina loves to talk about the, the U19 ranks on Team USA. I think we value international big game reps here and she is someone who, you know, has acclimated herself very well in international competition as well.
- [36:36]
Zena Keda
There you go. Okay, let's get to the, you know, speaking of international young standouts, North Carolina has a lot of them just saying. Lisa Astakova, Moscow native, she is one of the top prospects out in Russia. Tysa Kiraz, the Brazilian national squad player, she's played up as well. You never know. I mean I do like the teams are going off the beaten path in terms of their recruitment but Silas Swartz put everybody on notice last year. She was a really fun player to watch, especially offensively. All right, let's keep it moving to our last this or that and it is who's got the best shot at standing out this season and we're moving this particularly to the mid majors. Okay, is it Richmond or South Dakota State or again, if you got somebody off of these this or that choices. I mean we've already done it two times. Let's go ahead. But Ben, who you rolling with?
- [37:30]
Ben Pickman
Well, we focus on some of these schools and Richmond, South Dakota State and I will loop some of the Ivies, Princeton and Columbia in here as well. If we're gonna go off the board, maybe Sabrina has an even deeper cut that she wants to throw in because these were kind of either programs that have had recent success that we expect to have success or have some of the highest profile mid major players in the country. These are some of the teams that we have our eye on. Before I share my answer here, I think one of the great things, I know we don't want to just schedule watch as it relates to how things are going to play out here, but we're going to see a lot of these teams actually play each other. So the answer to this question, we're going to get some clarity to Colombia, for instance, plays Richmond. South Dakota State plays Columbia. You know, obviously Columbia is going to play Princeton. Richmond, you know, I mentioned it. They have a very good schedule. They're playing Columbia, they're going to play another mid major power, Fairfield. So we'll get some clarity here. I'm going to take Richmond though. They are the highest ranked mid major of all mid majors and they have, I think the best player, I guess the best player who is not a Power 5 conference player. Again, we're going to include UConn in the Power conference world, I'm not going to let Sabrina get out of the way.
- [38:38]
Sabrina Merchant
You just took my joke away, Ben. Yeah, I'm not basically a mid major conference. What are we talking about?
- [38:43]
Ben Pickman
I wasn't going to let you get in and be like, you know who I like from the mid major world? UConn. Good, good. Take Sabrina. Really good. But Maggie Dugan is a player that our contributor to the show will have her back eventually. When she is back, Chantelle Jennings might be her favorite player in the country. Sabrina, agreed or disagree?
- [39:03]
Sabrina Merchant
Certainly I've always been a bigger Maggie Dugan fan than Chantel, but we're definitely part of the Aaron Roussel hive, that's for sure.
- [39:09]
Ben Pickman
Well, Richmond again in elite offense. I look at these mid majors, you want someone, something that you are elite at. And they were top 15 in offensive rating last year. They were first in effective field goal percentage. They're shooting incredible percentage from two, an incredible percentage from three. And interestingly, they allowed the fewest free throws per game last year. And with Dugan back again the best player in the A10, the best mid major player, I would argue, you know, we're going to see they have a tough schedule ahead of them. They play Texas, they play Columbia, they play tcu, they play Fairfield. But they're well positioned to challenge themselves and I think have some success.
- [39:41]
Zena Keda
Okay. Hmm. This one was tough and I know people are probably expecting, obviously I'm going to try and pick an Ivy League team in this mix.
- [39:50]
Ben Pickman
That's why we threw them in here, Zena. That's why we threw them in.
- [39:52]
Zena Keda
I know and I, I wanted to. And you know, I'm looking at Columbia, I'm looking at Princeton. They, they've got some, some players on the mid major, the player of the year watch list and it's good. Shout out to Columbia's Riley Rice. Princeton's got Madison St. Rose. They're going to keep building off what they were doing last year, but there was too many departures, I think for these two teams to have, I think the same splash this season that they had last year. I don't know if the Ivy League is going to have three bids to the tournament, but I do think the A10 will. And I was struggling between Richmond, but also George Mason and mainly because of George Mason's wins against St. Joe's against Richmond in the tournament. Like they played incredibly well. They started the season losing two games and then went on an 11 game win streak. I don't have enough here for me to say Richmond or George Mason definitively. So I'm going to have to let that play out and I don't want to be ignorant about it, but I feel like I'm gonna have to go with you guys on this, this mid major watch right now. So Sabrina, I'm gonna turn to you.
- [40:55]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. I like the way Ben framed this. Like you want to find a team that's elite at something and you know that has something you can turn to when situations get adverse. And it's funny, like all the ways he described Maggie Dugan and Richmond, like I could do the same thing with Brooklyn Meyer and South Dakota State, right? Like this is basically mid major time of year. You look at a lot of these power conference and they're scheduling some cupcakes, you know, like we don't know what we're going to get out of them until the conference season starts. Like, seriously, if you're trying to figure out what to make of LSU like until January, like I, I don't know what exactly you're going to learn from a lot of these games, but the mid majors, they schedule really well during non conference because they're not going to pick up a lot of resume boosting wins, so to speak, during their conference seasons. And South Dakota State, they start the season off against Creighton, who I've been told is not part of a mid major conference even though they're in the Big East. And you know, they had a nice win at Creighton. And Brooklyn Meyer, you know, she puts up 33 points, eight rebounds, five assists. Like a very, a very Maggie Dugan type stat line, honestly. And this is a South Dakota State team that was the 14th ranked offensive in the country last year, sixth in effective field goal percentage. Just an offensive machine. They have gotten to the second weekend of the tournament as recently as 2022, I want to say. So it's not like this is out of the question for this program. I just really like the way they move the ball. Meyer's just a ridiculous specimen of a player. She's just been putting up numbers like nobody's business ever since she got to South Dakota State. They don't exactly have the same caliber of schedule as Richmond. I mean Richmond's playing Texas the day that this comes out, so they're really going for it. But they do get to play North Carolina, Columbia, Kansas State. So there's, there's some opportunities to see, you know, what, what exactly they can come up with. But just, just for the counterpoint, I think to Richmond, I think like let's see what Brooklyn Meyer and South Dakota State can come up with because like again, this is a team that has historically like punched above their weight in non conference schedule.
- [42:41]
Zena Keda
Okay, all right, I'm taking your word for it. This is the part.
- [42:45]
Sabrina Merchant
Scroll down the schedule. Actually, South Dakota State does play Texas this year.
- [42:48]
Ben Pickman
They play them later. They play them later.
- [42:49]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, they play them a little bit later.
- [42:51]
Ben Pickman
Like these games are so important for these mid major schools, right? And it comes at a time where, you know, when we get to March, when we're thinking about who's in, who's out seed lines, these are the games so often that the committee is going to look back on that we are going to look back on as we evaluate them. They really are high leverage games for these programs. In particular for exactly what Sabrina was saying, these major conference schools, you know, should Texas lose to South Dakota, like they're going to get another opportunity to still be a high seed because they're playing in the SEC and they're going to have chances against South Carolina, against LSU, Ole Miss, Tennessee, etc. But like especially early season, you know, if you're one of these programs that we're talking about here, you're hoping to, you know, clip and catch one of these major programs on an off night, pick up a critical win because that can carry you can go such a long way come NCAA tournament time in terms of how we all think about and evaluate your program. And maybe you get them when you know, a team is not playing their best in November. But hopefully for those programs you are.
- [43:56]
Zena Keda
Yeah, absolutely. I mean having played at a mid major, a lot of these games are being bought by bigger schools to be able to have won the practice, but then a guaranteed win. And whenever you do perform well against a team like this, whether it's a win or a loss, it puts you on the map. But particularly nowadays, especially with the NCAA tournament, having the expansion, having that the first four opportunity, like mid majors are not trying to play with their opportunity to potentially be in that conversation. And so they take every game seriously. But these type of games are really important for them. Ben, you mentioned you don't quite get the opportunity to get those quad one or quad two and we're gonna break that down eventually guys, don't worry, we'll cover all that later towards March. But those big wins, that position you well for seating in the tournament. Now I'll say this, you know, when it comes to women's college, it for me that I am more of a fan on like of course I can analyze a basketball game, but in terms of understanding the different positioning of different teams and how they've played, et cetera. Like I am very excited to be talking to you guys this year about it because I still am like catching up after having played. Like now I'm a fan and I'm getting to enjoy it and so I'm really excited to get into the mix of this season again with you guys and we'll see what happens. But let us know what you guys think about our this or thats. If there are other things that you're curious about. If you're a fan like me, you've got more questions. Bring em in. Sabrina and Ben will knock it out. All right, well we'll see what happens this season, but this is a fun game of this or that. We'll bring it back throughout the year. Let us know if there's anything that you guys want us to compare and break down.
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- [47:13]
Zena Keda
All right. To close things out today, I know I said I was gonna leave the pro sports alone. It is college season. However. However, some new coaches came into their teams and had their introductory press conferences and they had some thoughts and some comments and Sabrina and Ben saw them. Of course, we're talking about Sandy Brondello at the Toronto Tempo, Sonia Raman at the Seattle Storm, and Jose Fernandez at the Dallas Wings. Guys, any takeaways? Anything stood out from these introductory press conferences with these coaches?
- [47:43]
Sabrina Merchant
I did enjoy that Toronto tried to keep the secret as long as possible. It was like, hey, we're introducing our head coach today with, like, no name attached to it, as if we didn't all know who it was going to be.
- [47:54]
Zena Keda
We were well aware.
- [47:55]
Sabrina Merchant
Sandy. I mean, we talked about this last week, you know, when the hire was announced or not announced, but like, when it was revealed, just the word alignment. And like, the partnership that she feels with Monica Wright Rogers. You know, we've mentioned they are the only former player combination of coach and GM in the wnba. And it seems pretty clear that, like, they see basketball the same way. The way they want to build the team is in concert with one another. And it felt like a lot of shade to her experience in New York, to be frank. But she seems very happy with the partnership that she will have with Monica Wright Rogers. And, you know, she could have had any job in the wnba. Like, we've gone through this. She could have coached Paige Becker. She could have coached Dominique Malanga. She chose to be here. And I think a lot of it is because of who her GM is. And that just really came across in the press conference.
- [48:38]
Zena Keda
She seemed happy as hell to be in Toronto. You definitely saw that vibe there. And that's. I mean, that's great. That's exactly what you want. But to your point, does feel a little cool in New York.
- [48:48]
Ben Pickman
After some of these comments, we should say this is. I don't know if this is out there, but Olaf Lang, her husband, former assistant coach, head coach in Europe, WNBA coach everywhere. He will also be joining her staff with the Toronto Tempo. We can say that. And it was fun to. I guess it was the only press conference that I've ever heard, Sabrina, in which the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth of nations was referred to. I had to Google what other countries were in the Commonwealth of Nations, but Sandy being Australian, now coaching a team in Canada, that came up, that caught my ear, I guess, among other facts. What about.
- [49:25]
Zena Keda
Did you see anything else with Sonya or Jose that stood out?
- [49:28]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I Think Sonya's was less jumped out, I guess. And it still is unclear about what that roster is going to look like. I mean, again, we heard a lot about alignment. We heard a lot about evolution. You know, she talked about analytics evolvement.
- [49:41]
Sabrina Merchant
Now too, which is kind of weird to me. Where did we get the word evolvement from? I thought it was evolution.
- [49:45]
Zena Keda
Yeah, it definitely is evolution. Interesting.
- [49:48]
Ben Pickman
I mean, is that also a takeaway? And I think the appeal of Dominique Malanga is a real one. We also saw, much like the case of Sandy going to a Raptors game right after Sonya then went to a Seattle Kraken game that night. I always love when the recently introduced head coach then goes to another sporting event of a team in the same city. Yeah. Gets there their jersey, gets their little press tour like in arena tour. I thought that's really nice. But I did, you know, among the press conference, I think Jose Fernandez is. Was stood out just because he made it very clear or he tried to make it very clear that this is a different era of Dallas Wings basketball. Like he was very clear in saying change is coming and we're going to win. That was a point blank quoted statement that he said. He talked about how other coaches and other people might be afraid or might have been afraid to take this Dallas Wings job, both because of the pressure that it comes with, but also I think underlying the pressure. And when you talk to, you know, other people involved in this kind of search or other people around the industry because of the instability that has come with the Dallas Wings from the coaching side. Right. Just the, you know, like incredible turnover that they have had year after year. Not having a coach survive three seasons since what, the mid-2010s. He said like he didn't seem to be phased by that fact and instead seemed excited and motivated by the opportunity to coach Paige Beckers to get to know Paige Beckers to get to know the other players on this roster this season. The fact that he has been a seasoned head coach, I think did shine through in how he was responding to answer to questions, how he was conducting himself on the podium. I think that is a really good sign. And, and it is why, you know, experience was one of the factors that Kurt Miller was open about prioritizing throughout this search is one thing we reported. And then Kurt confirmed on the podium when they were talking about Jose. They wanted someone who had been a proven head coach and had had those experiences. And I think that really did shine through as well. As he was reflecting on his choice.
- [51:51]
Zena Keda
To join the Wings and Ben, just to close it out, what tier of the NCAA did he, he earned that season experience.
- [52:00]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, he was a mid major coach. South Florida. Exactly that.
- [52:05]
Zena Keda
That's back, people.
- [52:07]
Ben Pickman
Hey, that's, that's why it's all important that we might be talking about, you know, the coach of Richmond and Aaron Johnson Johnston of South Dakota now, but in a couple years, who knows, they might be WNBA head coaches. And you'll be glad you listen to this podcast to learn more about their programs. Now when we start to talk about their transitions to the pros.
- [52:27]
Zena Keda
That's funny.
- [52:28]
Sabrina Merchant
I instinctively chuckled when you said a new era of Dallas Wings because how many times have we heard that in the last eight years? Like it's, it's, it comes up a lot. But I mean the fact that he said that he wanted to win is in direct contrast to what Chris Coclanis said at this time last year when it was we want to make sure our players want to rejoin the team at the end of the season. There was no mention of winning when Chris was brought on. So it is different.
- [52:48]
Zena Keda
Okay, well, I told y' all we would bring it back somehow. Now, mid major, that's why you gotta pay attention not just to the top 25, we gotta go around, around the NCAA and that's what we're gonna do for the rest of this college hoop season. It's officially here and we gotta make sure that y' all don't miss any more of these episodes. Okay? Can't miss any of these episodes this winter because we're gonna be breaking it down. Make sure you're subscribed, not only wherever you're listening on audio, but make sure you see us on video too. We're a good looking bunch. We're a good looking bunch. Go subscribe on YouTube. Make sure your family and your friends are too. Let us know if you guys have questions. Feel free to hit us up on social media, no offseason. TheAthletic.com is our email, so right there as well. And go check out our partner, the Yahoo. Sports hub. They've got more content over there for you sports.yahoo.com womens sports. And be prepared to give your opinion because we got an audience survey coming and we're going to drop those in those show notes. We want to get feedback on what you guys like, what you guys don't like, what you guys want more of all of the above. So be prepared for that. But for now, be prepared for women's college hoops because it's here on behalf of the Athletic. Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman. I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No off season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio, and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.
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