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- [00:00]
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- [01:16]
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- [03:18]
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- [03:38]
Zena Kaida
There to watch them.
- [03:39]
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- [04:51]
Zena Kaida
For the Athletic I'm Zena Caida and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Oh oh oh. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Zena Kaeda here with Chantelle Jennings. To start off your week. Before we get going, make sure that you are subscribing to our show wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Spotify if you're listening to us through the Athletic app, like shout out to you for being a subscriber, but make sure that you're subscribed. You don't want to miss any episodes because NCAA season's still going, it's still heating up. We're still seeing the best of the play, I think, particularly because we're in conference play and you know, that's when the competition heats up. For today's show, we're going to talk about probably one of the biggest games. Actually, no, I can say it quite literally was the biggest game because it was the number one watch game in NCAA women's basketball this season and really in history. That SC LSU game. We're going to talk about that. We're going to also talk a little bit about the Athletics All America team, which you can see by the time this podcast is out, you'll be able to see it on the site. And then we're going to talk about UConn and if it's too early to say that they are falling from grace or maybe the dynasty is over. Hmm, don't know. And I'll finish it out with some game previews this week, but Chantel. Hey girl, what's up?
- [06:25]
Chantelle Jennings
Hey, Xena.
- [06:26]
Zena Kaida
We have to talk about last Thursday. Okay. Because last Thursday I was actually at Chase center preparing for a game with the warriors. And we were in the media room, all of us glued to a television watching this unreal matchup. And for those of you that didn't watch, I'll give you a little quick background. South Carolina came into Pete Maravich Assembly Center. LSU's home, beat them 76 to 70. It actually was the thousandth win for South Carolina. I don't think anybody really cared about that. I don't even think South Carolina cared about that. I think it was just a big win and a big game for everyone to watch. Around 1.56 million viewers per sports media watch tuned in. That is the second highest rated women's college basketball regular season game ever watched since 2010. It only trails the clash that just happened recently against number five Iowa and number 12 Ohio State that drew 1.86 million viewers. And it was a really, really popular matchup. And I think it was great for the women's game because the women's game unfortunately has no room for error. Whenever a big time matchup is anticipated, it is hyped up, it's put on national television. You really hope that it ends up being as competitive as everyone says, because the last thing you would want is the entire nation tuning in and it's a blowout or it's a flop of a game or the players do not match up to the entertainment, the drama, the just everything. And trust me, it did, folks, it actually is responsible for two. This matchup between LSU and South Carolina is responsible for two of the three highest rated games in NCAA women's basketball history. Last season on Super Bowl Sunday, this matchup got 1.47 million viewers. So it's definitely a popcorn type of game. But to you, Chantel, what is it about this matchup that was so anticipated?
- [08:21]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, I think you said it. It was what happened last year. The fact that, you know, how LSU came into that game last year, how South Carolina just sort of BL out of the water in that game, what it meant for those two teams, and sort of then what followed that season, how LSU kind of, you know, chugged along through the rest of the season, South Carolina comes into the tournament as sort of the predictive favorite, and then LSU wins the entire thing. And then I think just the idea of the rematch this year, LSU picking up so many big names in the portal. The stars that are in Baton Rouge, sort of the team that Don Staley has made in Columbia, and this clash in the sec. Two very well known coaches, two coaches that a lot of people want to see coach against one another. Two teams that were just like, packed with talent. And I do think the fact that Iowa, Ohio State had that huge 1.6 million, you know, on Sunday before on a different network, which I also think is an important aspect of this, you know, it's sort of the fact that this encore of sorts, the second game is. Is surpassing that number. Excitement, anticipation for women's basketball is bubbling right now. And I think the fact that these games continue to. Up to the hype and the expectation and then just the quality, the product on the floor was really good. You had stars, you had teams, you had runs, you had coaching matchups. I think all of it together was just sort of this perfect package of like, wow, this is what you want in. In a sport, in a game, for this kind of rivalry, this kind of heated matchup, all of it just. Just lived up to it.
- [09:58]
Zena Kaida
That actually was going to be my next question to you. Right. Like I mentioned before, I feel like anytime that women's baske on this level of a platform, you want it to be that level of hype and that level of just drama, because you want people to be like, oh, if I'm not a women's basketball fan or NCAA women's basketball fan, I'm tuned in and I'm like, wow, this actually was worth the time. That is to me, why it's important for it to live to the hype, to continue building that growth. But from your perspective as a writer, someone that's been covering this league for A very long time. And you've seen this growth of interest. You know, living up to the hype is one thing, but why was it important for you that these two teams particularly lived up to the hype in the sense of, if South Carolina got blown out, mind you, they come into this game undefeated, what does that mean for lsu? Like, what could have a different outcome meant for the league? Does it mean that South Carolina's human? Why did it matter that this game was this close and this exciting?
- [10:53]
Chantelle Jennings
I think looking at it from a storyline's perspective, anytime you have an undefeated team, which South Carolina sort of stands there now as the lone team at the top, they're undefeated. They're number one. People love that. Even if you're not a fan of women's college basketball, South Carolina's undefeated. Don Staley's team is undefeated. Like, that draws eyes and ears. And because of that, people are going to watch. Like, people will tune in to watch South Carolina, Vanderbilt, even if it's not the same kind of matchup, because South Carolina is still undefeated. Can anyone knock off South Carolina? You know, that sort of becomes the storyline that, you know, fans follow and writers follow. I think lsu, again, was sort of this team where they came into the season as the preseason favorite, the preseason number one. How is Kim Mulkey going to handle all these stars down in Baton Rouge type of a thing? And so I think just the level of play on the floor, being able to stand up to that, had it gone a different way? You know, ultimately I look at this game and I came away from it thinking, like, everyone wins in this one. Like, LSU lost, but they won. Right. Like, Kim Mulkey likes a loss on her schedule. She doesn't want to go undefeated even in that. There was. I think it was the third. I forget if it was the third quarter or the fourth quarter. And Kim Mulkey is saying to Holly Row, like, you know, we're not used to being in these kinds of situations like South Carolina is. And I was like, kim, you've got the. You're the reigning national champs. Dawn Staley has almost an entirely new crop of players who haven't been in these situations as much. You guys won it all last year. But it's like, she loves that. She wants to sort of have that target. She wants to be the underdog. Like, she wants her team to have to sort of, like, come from behind in that way.
- [12:34]
Zena Kaida
Yep, yep.
- [12:35]
Chantelle Jennings
That motivating factor. And so even though LSU lost, I think they had players who learned some really important Lessons. I think Kim Mulkey probably learned something about how to motivate her team. I think after that halftime with South Carolina, like, Dawn Staley certainly learned something about, like, motivating her team at halftime and what works, what's not going to, you know, like, everybody wins. Women's basketball, espn, other networks that are sort of sitting on the outside right now going, like, should I get into this women's college basketball thing? Fans, like, if you like women's basketball or not, like, the Die hards, the lukewarm people, the bandwagon, like, this was a game where everyone won, truly, even though technically LSU lost on the scoreboard.
- [13:19]
Zena Kaida
No, but I love that. There's so many different elements to why this game was so important to watch, to see the outcome. And you're right. Building from this, there's so many more storylines that are cultivated. Who can take out sc? Will LSU bounce back? Will they take their vengeance out of, like, what happened in that game out on their next game, like, on Mississippi State? There is a lot there. But let's actually talk about the game, because, as you mentioned, like, LSU was leading for the majority of this game. And I saw this hilarious tweet that was like, I know there's a lot of women that are always like, give me Sierra's prayer. Right? Sierra is married to Denver Broncos quarterback Russell Wilson. Right? And just like, he's a great guy. And it's like, oh, give me Sierra's prior. Someone was like, don't give me Sierra's prayer. Give me Don Staley's halftime speech, because that is what I need in my life. And I'm like, yes, that's exactly right. Like, give me that. Because SC came out like a completely different team. Their aggression on defense, their ability to hit shots. I mean, they were phenomenal in the second half, and they were so poised. Like, I really felt like they were so poised going towards the end of that game. And a lot of people will say, like, that game could have gone either way had Angel Reese not fouled out. Right? That. That was, like, a major number. One point of what turned things around for SC was that she had to sit. And while she was out, SC went on an 11, 3, 114 run. I don't know if it's that simple. I think there's a lot of amazing clock management by Dawn Staley at the end of the game, too. That has to be given some credit. But I wanted to ask you, like, how do you think that sc, like, set themselves up for success to win the game, particularly in that second half.
- [14:57]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. Well, I want to go back to that point you made about halftime, because I think this is sort of the. Maybe the most amazing thing about South Carolina this year, I think. And this game almost made me realize it. Like, they have been so good and so efficient, especially offensively and quite poised, that I think they've allowed us to almost forget how young they are in terms of experience. You know, I'm not saying they're a team of freshmen, but this is not a group that has started together for four years or has a ton of players that have started for four years, but they've played like it. And I think in that first quarter specifically, this looked to me like a team that came out and was in front of 14,000 fans that were like, super hostile, super angry, and it rattled them a bit. And it wasn't the South Carolina team that we were used to seeing. And I think that was sort of that moment when I went, oh, yeah, like, these are so many players who are still coming together as a team because this is a new starting group, a new personnel grouping, but also just players who haven't been in these situations as much. And so I think that, to me, was sort of the most like, oh, duh, moment as I was watching them, just because they've almost fooled us into thinking that they're this. Like, they're the freshies round two because they've been so damn good. And so I think that, to me, was the biggest takeaway and sort of how you said the word poise, how they were able to come around and come back from that. That, to me is almost like, yeah, they get the win, they keep their undefeated status, all of that, number one, blah, blah, blah. But to me, this game showed the mettle and sort of the poise of this team in a way that they'll be able to lean on this learning. Don will be able to come back to this moment and say, remember when we were in Baton Rouge? Remember how that felt? Remember how we came back from that together as a team? And I think that's truly how it was, is that you look at this, a different player led them in scoring than assisting, than rebounds. Like, this is such a team. And I think that's ultimately what sets them up for success. In a lot of late game situations, you have great clock management, you have great coaching and discipline, but you also just have so many different weapons where late it was like, okay, who's going to be the player that makes the shot? And Raven was that player who kind of Hit, you know, that shot that felt like the dagger, but it could have been any of them. And I think that's what makes South Carolina so good, so dangerous, is that they truly are the best team in America. There are five players on the floor at any given time and several more on the bench, mind you, that feel like they could also, you know, have the ball in their hands late and seal it. I do think it was. It was such a game of runs that it was going to be kind of whoever. Whoever could end with the last run was going to be the team that won. And it helped that angel was on the bench. You know, it helped for South Carolina. But even if she's on the floor, like, South Carolina's still in the same position where they have five players, right, that can hurt you. And not every team has that, not many, not most have that sort of ability that South Carolina does.
- [17:55]
Zena Kaida
I do want to go back to your point of, like, even though this team does have a lot of young players, they're not all freshmen. And even if they're not freshmen, like you think about Raven Johnson, like you mentioned, who had significant impact on this game. Bri hall had that big three as well, like the go ahead three. These are seniors, juniors, right? But they weren't the girls, right? They weren't the people that were behind the iconic runs that, you know, South Carolina has had these past two years. And so even in a way, they're still new to these moments, being the ones that have that burden on their shoulders. So I really commend the way that they've come into this role of being the new seniors that have to close games and keep that poise and ensure that everyone on the floor is on the same page. And being the ones that have to execute Dawn's plans, that's the difference, right? Exactly.
- [18:46]
Chantelle Jennings
Like Brie hall, you know, Ashlyn Watkins, Saniya Fagan. Like, these players have been in those locker rooms at halftime before for those talks, but they're sitting there while other players who are going to be on the court are the ones who are going to be trusted to take the shot, make the shot. They have not been in the position where it's like, no, no, no, it's you.
- [19:06]
Zena Kaida
Like, it's you. This is on you.
- [19:08]
Chantelle Jennings
Don't look around.
- [19:10]
Zena Kaida
Yeah, don't look around. This is on you. Right?
- [19:12]
Chantelle Jennings
Balls in your hands. And so it's like, they've heard this stuff, but they're really hearing it now in a different way. You know, this is not a young team, but it Is it is a young team, you know.
- [19:23]
Zena Kaida
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I will say that was a wonderful game between sc, lsu. We know that if they find a way to meet themselves again later on this season, of course they will. But in the terms of like conference playoffs and then also going into March Madness, it's just going to be popcorn theater every single time. I want to see all the staredowns. I want the Cardoso stare downs, I want the Angel Reese staredowns. And I also do. Before we close out this segment, I do want to give credit to lsu, Angel Reese, Hayley Van Lith. I'm not going to lie. All season, I've been a little bit like, does she fit? Does she fit? Does she make sense on this team? There's almost like too much star power on this team. But she showed up. Particularly towards the end of the game. She showed up, she made some big shots. She was being locked down on defense, and she still found a way to make an impact on the game. And so there were moments where she was like, I don't know if she heard me. Like, does this make sense? I don't know. And she was like, every time she made a shot, whether it was in the mid range or, you know, on the outside. So big shout out to the way they showed up. Angel Reese, Anissa Morrow. Big time blocks by Anissa Morrow, too, and Hayley Van Lif. The whole team really just had a really fun game. So thank you to both of them, both teams, both programs, for giving us an amazing, amazing game. All right, we're going to be talking about some of these players in our next segment, which is about this All America team. And I want to ask you first, Chantel, like, how does a list like this even come together? Like, what is the actual process amongst the writers?
- [20:53]
Chantelle Jennings
So we all vote individually. We send our votes to Shannon. So this list was comprised through myself, Ben, Sabrina, and Shannon. And we just.
- [21:02]
Zena Kaida
And Shannon is.
- [21:04]
Chantelle Jennings
Shannon is our editor.
- [21:05]
Zena Kaida
Perfect. There you go.
- [21:06]
Chantelle Jennings
So Ben, myself and Sabrina send them to Shannon, our editor, and we just go one through 10. It's positionless, you know, number one player at the top, 10th best player, number 10. And then we reverse those in terms of point totals, so whoever's number one gets 10 points. And then Shannon adds it all up and we come out with this. And so, yeah, I think it's a pretty solid list. I think the good thing here for women's basketball fans is, like, this wasn't easy. I think all of us were in Slack saying, like, this is a really, really Difficult challenge because trying to find and think of an order, specifically the 10 best players in women's college basketball right now is hard. Like, this is not straightforward. And then you're looking at a bunch of different things. You're thinking about the games you've watched this year. You're looking at stats, you're thinking about fit. But just all of this, it's the full picture. And all of us obviously weigh things a little bit differently. But I do think, you know, the list that we came to does show, you know, sort of how much talent there is across the country, how it exists in every conference, every corner of the country. And I think the fact that it was more difficult than I can remember in years past is a good thing for the game.
- [22:18]
Zena Kaida
I'm happy you mentioned that. It all weighs differently for you all. We've had this conversation when it comes to choosing the all WNBA teams, but not on the NCAA level. And of course, can't have Ben and Sabrina here. But I want to ask you, Shanta, like, what does all America mean to you?
- [22:35]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, so that's the hard thing is that, you know, we just got done talking about South Carolina, right? Like, that is such a good team. And in that way, you know, I'm looking at it and I'm like, how much do we sort of look at players and what they're bringing to the table in terms of when they don't have the ball in their hands and when they're off ball or like, their vibes? Like, how can we quantify what Tahina Powpow's energy and her poise means to the South Carolina team? And that's really hard when you're comparing that to, like a Juju Watkins, and then you're only thinking about 10 possible players. And so I think my list skews towards sort of what players were contributing on the floor. As you're seeing it happen. I would say that my list also skews towards players who have to shoulder more for their teams, whether that's because that's how their team is made up or because of injuries this season, which sadly, it's like every day. I think I'm sure what my inbox is going to look like because there's going to be yet another email from some PR person saying that someone got surgery or they're going to miss a certain amount of games. But I think generally all America teams tend to favor players who have more put on their shoulders, which, you know, there are certain teams in the country that, because they are so Team oriented. You know, there might be less representation from those players on the All American team, even though their teams themselves are better than. You know what I'm saying.
- [24:05]
Zena Kaida
Yeah.
- [24:06]
Chantelle Jennings
Than the players who are on the list. Right. But I would bet you that every player who's on the All American list right now would trade that spot for a spot in the Final four with their team. And every player who's not on the list would say, like, that's fine. If I'm in the final Four, I don't really care if I'm on your stupid list or not.
- [24:21]
Zena Kaida
So that's true. That's true.
- [24:22]
Chantelle Jennings
That's how it goes.
- [24:24]
Zena Kaida
Yeah. So I want to ask, like, when you think about All American, does it ever come up to think, could they be on another team? Like, for example, we know that. Let's take Stanford versus South Carolina. Very different styles of play. Do you give any. A player any sort of credit if they could easily insert themselves into another playing style or a different type of team playing style and still be productive?
- [24:53]
Chantelle Jennings
I don't think you can really do that because then it's like you can only vote on what you see. You know, I'm not projecting here. I'm not saying, like, oh, well, these are, you know, I'm voting on what I've seen. I'm voting on the resume these players have put in front of me. I'm not voting on what they did last year. I'm not voting on what I think they can do next year in their whole career. I'm voting on what They've done through 18 games this season or however many games they've played. And so, you know, Caitlin Clark was my number one overall player. Caitlin would not be Caitlin on many other teams. On any other team. Right. Juju Watkins was my number two player. Juju Watkins is not going to be juju Watkins on many other teams because of what Lindsey Gottlieb is building around her. Like, these are teams and programs that are building around a player, and so that inherently will favor sort of that individual accolade that gets you the notoriety to be somewhere like an All American team. And so I'm not gonna imagine what juju is going to look like on an LSU or on any other team, a Stanford. I'm only going to sort of put her where she is and what she's done so far.
- [26:03]
Zena Kaida
It's interesting, particularly from a player's perspective, because what you just said shows you just how important, especially as you're being recruited or once you enter the transfer portal, how Important it is to know who you're going to be playing with and who's coming up behind you or who's already there. Right. Because your style of play as a program can either help or hinder your production and then also who's around you can either help or hinder your efficiency. And I think there's always a question, people have always, you know, been talking about that, particularly like Caitlin Clark, for example, like, will she transfer? Will she try and go somewhere else and finish out her college career? And it's like, just as you mentioned, if you know you're not going to get the same amount of shots put up, you're not going to get the same amount of spacing, you're not going to play at the same pace, right? Like, there's so many different elements of it. You're not going to get an inside out game. Like you're not going to go to these other places. And I'm just imagining like a high school recruit needing to think about that. And I think more players are being more savvy about that, of realizing what kind of style of play do I have? Because I feel like particularly in this era, and this is going to be a wonderful setup to our next segment, but particularly in this era, there is more of a thought process of what program do I fit in with play style more so than there is what program is the best? And you have seen this, actually, I would say on the men's side and the women's side. I'm from North Carolina. I remember when Duke and UNC were the schools to be from a men's perspective, right? Particularly from a men's perspective. On the women's side, I remember, you know, UConn, Tennessee, Stanford, like these schools being the schools to be at for years and years and years. And then there was a shift and it was kind of like, I know on the men's side and from talking to friends that were in that mix, I know from a men's side perspective, there was a concerted effort of players going to camps and being like, forget Duke, forget unc. Let's team up and go to Memphis, right? Let's team up and go to Louisville. Let's team up and go play somewhere where our style of play, we don't have to conform to what the school is doing. We can create our own. And I think that we're seeing this as well on the women's side and the players that you guys have listed on this All America team, I think that each player you can go down the list, they fit so well within the systems that their schools play at. How much their schools conform to fit them versus they just chose the right program for them, I think varies, but it's 1000% this school fits. The school style of play and the way that this player plays fits like a piece of a puzzle as opposed to a player going there and having to figure out how to play within that system.
- [28:51]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of the word. Like, it's fit. Like, fit over anything else. Like fit over the name on the front of the jersey, fit over, you know, nil fit over, like, whatever it is. Like, the fit needs to be what is the best match for these players. And I think that is what you do see in terms of this All America list. Like, these players inherently, like, at a baseline, they have a great fit, but then what they have done with that fit is what really gets them on this list. Right. Like, Hannah Hidalgo is a first teamer for us. She is a great fit for Neil Ivy at Notre Dame, like, clearly proved that this weekend against Yukon when she showed herself as the best player on the floor, happy to take over that game. But her fit would be very different this year if Olivia Miles were healthy. But Olivia Miles is not healthy this year, is not going to return to play this year. We found out this weekend. And in that absence, Hannah has the ability as a player to raise her game to that next level and shoulder this team as a freshman to get this team into the places it needs to be. And so I think you look at fit, but I also think you have to look at what these players have done with that fit, with their schedule, with what is in front of them and how they have raised their own games and sort of become the player that their teams need them to become in order to be successful.
- [30:11]
Zena Kaida
Yeah, I definitely feel as if a lot more people, back when I was going to school, more people were talking about fit from a perspective of, like, do I like the program overall? Could I have a space, you know, on the roster and, like, get some playing time, et cetera. But people are looking at fit as a school overall. How far is it from a family, like, all these different things, and now it's just important. That's important too, you know, But I think that people are just so much savvier. And this is also a huge element of the WNBA being more realistic of a goal. Right. We talked to several people throughout, like, even this year so far. But back in the day, like, even before I started School going to WNBA was like a who. It was just kind of like a, like not a pipe dream, but like it wasn't the thing that most people were trying to go to. Now, whether you' like top 25, D1, mid level, like D2, D3, like, everyone has an idea that, hey, going to the W is not a crazy concept. And so that there, I feel like you're getting more people being savvy and.
- [31:10]
Chantelle Jennings
I think there's more pathways to play overseas now. There's more pathways.
- [31:13]
Zena Kaida
Another point.
- [31:14]
Chantelle Jennings
And I think players are aware of that.
- [31:16]
Zena Kaida
Yeah, correct, Exactly.
- [31:17]
Chantelle Jennings
And it is the W. But it's also that I think these players who maybe aren't going to cut it in the WNBA know, but I could still have a 10 year career.
- [31:26]
Zena Kaida
Exactly, exactly.
- [31:28]
Chantelle Jennings
You know, this is. It doesn't just have to be four years at the NCAA level for me. And so I think, yeah, these players are figuring out their fits in a way that, you know, it's really impressive to see and people will disagree with my list. And that's a good thing because these things should be debated respectfully. But like, this is good. Ultimately what it means is that there is not just more talent in women's college basketball, but that it's going to a lot of places. And obviously the next school that we're going to talk about in this conversation is UConn. And that, you know, in terms of Paige Beckers and fit, like, we'll obviously get into all of that in our next segment, but this is, it's a fascinating discussion and it's been fascinating to see all of these players sort of rise to the occasion for their teams this year.
- [32:14]
Zena Kaida
Well, let's go ahead and shift to UConn because they are a perfect example of a school that you see people go there regardless of fitness. You just want to play for a historic program like them. A team that has been a dynasty and one of the biggest dynasties in sports history, period. Like, let me just like break down a little bit. They've won a record 11 NCAA Division 1 National Championships, a women's record of NCAA four in a row, by the way. From 2013 through 2016, they won over 50 conference, regular season and tournament championships. They've taken part of every single NCAA tournament since 1989, since before I was even thought of. Okay. And then that ended in 2018-2019. That is the third longest active streak of being in the NCAA tournament in Division 1 history. And then from 2008 to 2022, they appeared in a record 14 consecutive Final Fours. Now this weekend, Notre Dame, number 15 in the country. The Fighting Irish came into Gampel Pavilion, which people don't win in Gamble Pavilion. It is very rare that people do that. It was a sold out crowd. They came in. UConn was actually celebrating their national championships teams from 2003, 2004, 2013 and 2014. Yes, they have so many championships that like the average school, like university has like reunions, like general reunions. That's how they have to break down their championship reunions and celebrations. So the classes of 2003-2004-2013-2014 were in the building to celebrate their anniversaries of their championships. And the Fighting Irish were like, we don't care about that. We have a game to win. They came in and not only did they win, it was a blowout. Okay, 82 to 67. One of those all Americans that we just talked about, Hannah Hidalgo, I saw a tweet that said, said she's Hannah Hidalgo, okay? She got the dog in her because she really does. 34 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, defense on deck, I mean literally locking up UConn, they didn't know what to do with her at the top of their defense of Notre Dame's defense. It was unreal. And UConn got a loss that stopped their 13 win streak that they were having and they're gave them their first home loss this season. And man, I think it was a great testament to. UConn is very human. And of course we have seen UConn experience injuries this year and we could definitely talk through those and just talk about how important it is that a school like UConn has been able to have generational players go through all four years of their program graduate. But by the time they graduate, that senior, that's that generational program already has a freshman right behind them that's also a generational player in that program. So they have just been churning, churning generational, historic type players within this program. But it doesn't help when they're playing at the same time and they're getting hurt. And that's what you had with Paige Beckers in the recent years, obviously. Az Fudd, like you've seen these big time losses on their roster in terms of injuries. And now Yukon's looking real human. And you wonder, is this the beginning of the end? You probably questioned that even last year when they had an early exit from the tournament, earlier than they typically have. But I mean, I don't know, Chantel, I'm going to start with you, girl. We're starting to see. And UConn is starting to see more and more parity throughout the league. And it's because all of these big time generational players, there's more of them, and they're not all choosing to go to UConn. They're going all across the country. What do you think has caused the shift in tides for UConn?
- [35:55]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, I think a few things. First of all, a year from now, we could be on the same podcast and all of these players could be back along with, you know, I think they have, like, three top 25 recruits coming in, like, with them charging toward their 12th national title. And this will feel like a very distant sort of memory of a conversation. Like, UConn is forever going to be put in the context of what they have done, which is something that no other program has done. I was thinking about this today because I knew we were going to talk about UConn, and I was like, man, like, UConn is still a top 25 team right now. And we're kind of. We're talking about them like the floor has fallen out from under them, which in some ways it has. And I want to talk about sort of those human ways in which it really has, but they're still a top 25 team right now. We should probably be talking about whether or not they'll be hosting first weekend of the tournament, the number of Division 1 basketball teams that would, like, give anything to host the first weekend. You know, they're not any Division 1 basketball team. They are UConn, and they're forever going to be graded against what has come before them. It makes me think of, like, you know, those, like, super musically talented families where there's, like, 10 kids and the first nine go to Juilliard, and then the 10th, like, doesn't get in. And maybe they still go on, like, a music scholarship somewhere.
- [37:18]
Zena Kaida
Right, right.
- [37:19]
Chantelle Jennings
They're still going to, like, like, University of Michigan Music School, shout out to my music school that, you know, I didn't go there, but, you know, still a great music school.
- [37:27]
Zena Kaida
Sure.
- [37:28]
Chantelle Jennings
And everyone on the outside is like, wow, just like a really great cellist or trumpeter. I don't know what the word is loudest. Right. But everyone in the family is like, man, what happened to them?
- [37:43]
Zena Kaida
The bar is high. Okay. Yes.
- [37:45]
Chantelle Jennings
Right. So the bar is high. Like, we're not. Not talking about an average situation. And Yukon, you know, you welcome that when you go there. Like, I haven't seen any of these players say, like, oh, like, feel Bad for us because we've lost games. What I do sort of witness, I think, in these losses is that I do think there are people out there who sort of relish UConn losing. And if UConn were at full strength right now and they were losing games, I don't think it would sort of rub me the wrong way. I think the fact that you look at this UConn team and there's 60 points sitting on the bench with season ending injuries and that there are people who are sort of relishing these losses, that's what, you know, the sort of underbelly of this, where it's like, oh, that gives me the ick of like, you play the cards that you're dealt and UConn's not playing with a full hand here. We get that. And they're going to play the whole season. You know, this is not the most talented team Gino Orem has ever coached. This is not the deepest team by far that Gino Oriema has ever coached. He's starting some players who he probably thought, we're going to be playing four to seven minutes a game right now, but they're forever going to be, you know, graded against what has come before. And that's just a reality of UConn. And every player who goes there knows it. Geno knows that, his staff knows it. And that's just sort of. That's what you get with UConn. And so I think that's sort of the human element of it where it's like, man, I just like those players on the bench. I feel real bad for them, as I do for every player who's had a season ending injury this year. Like, I look at Texas and I'm like, man, Rory, you just wish they could be. Not just for them, but it's like, I've covered this sport long enough that whenever there are season ending injuries, whenever there's injuries, I just really, really feel for these people. I went to a Wolves game recently and they were playing the Blazers. And I lived in Oregon for a decade before we moved to Minneapolis. And our friends we went with were like, who are you going to cheer for? And I was like, oh, I cheer for no injuries. And they're like, ha, ha. And we showed up to the game and my friend was like, oh, I thought you were gonna, like, wear a timberwolf shirt or a blazer shirt. And I was like, no, I'm serious. Like, when I go to sporting events, the only thing I cheer for is no injuries. Because I've covered too many games where I've watched a player's career end and I've talked to too many players.
- [39:59]
Zena Kaida
Wow.
- [39:59]
Chantelle Jennings
You know, in the aftermath of an ACL injury where they're never able to come back and be themselves again. And so I think that's sort of the human element of this, where it's like. And I know I'm, like, kind of going on this. This. On this, like, rant about. Not even a rant. I'm going on this, like, I don't know my soapbox about it, but I think that's what. When I Look at this UConn team, it is fair to compare them to what they have done, because UConn set the bar and they happily took that bar when they were winning. So, you know, you don't get to. You don't get to choose when you are or are not compared to the greatness that you have established. However, I think the part that just sort of, you know, gives me a little bit of pause is when it's like, I see these things where it's like they have these losses, and then I look at that bench and I'm like, you know, if we're going to talk about, does LSU lose if Angel Reese doesn't play four minutes at the end against South Carolina, we got to talk about, like, does UConn lose if AZ Fudd, Al Alfie, you know, are on the bench, if Caroline Ducharme can be out there, if Aubrey Griffin, you know, doesn't hurt Ernie this season? Like, you know, I think, you know, we have to talk about that, too. And so UConn is just. It's tough. Have they fallen? Yes, absolutely. How much of that is injury a significant part. How much of that is other is players, you know, the game rising and players going elsewhere? That's part of it, too. You know, they're definitely playing a higher level of competition than they. Than they did in the early 2000s, when everyone maybe was showing up at UConn to play.
- [41:23]
Zena Kaida
It's a really great point of, does UConn look human for. Yes, but for what reason? They look human because they're injured. They're not looking human because there's somehow been a decrease or decline in the quality of play or the quality of talent on their team. They've just had to adjust to having talent sitting on the bench because they've been injured. And it's. It's a really great point of, when you evaluate a team to say, oh, has the dynasty ended? It's a Lot easier to say. You know, for example, you take a team that has had a big time sports dynasty as well, the Patriots. Yeah. Decline of play quite literally went down because Tom Brady left. That is. That is a legitimate thing. They weren't able to fill that hole. So for example, if Paige Beckers left and an Az Fudd left and all of these other big time recruits left and they weren't able to fill that hole, I think that's a little bit different of a conversation of yukon, quote unquote. UConn looks human versus they're just injured once they're healthy. Let's see where this conversation starts. So it's a really fair point.
- [42:27]
Chantelle Jennings
I do think a big part of it is the injuries, but I do think even with what they've got. Right. Like it's not like they're playing with. They're not tcu, they're not playing with walk ons here. Right. Like.
- [42:35]
Zena Kaida
Right. Yeah.
- [42:36]
Chantelle Jennings
Top recruits.
- [42:37]
Zena Kaida
Yeah.
- [42:38]
Chantelle Jennings
And they weren't expected to play, but they're still top recruits. They still have more talent than a lot of other teams in the country.
- [42:43]
Zena Kaida
Right.
- [42:44]
Chantelle Jennings
I think the part with UConn that troubles me when I say we need to be talking about whether or not they should be hosting because even with the talent they do have on the court, they look discombobulated at times like this. Even with the talent they have. I do think there has been a bit of a drop here in terms of, you know, Paige theoretically should have been the player who took over that Notre Dame game. Right. Like she's the senior, she's national player of the year.
- [43:10]
Zena Kaida
Yep.
- [43:10]
Chantelle Jennings
Like she's the player that should have in theory taken over that game. But it was the freshman Hannah Hidalgo for Notre Dame. And I wrote about this earlier this season. But, but you know, we were talking about fit earlier. Paige went to UConn in part because she, she wanted to be a player who took like 12, 13 shots a game. UConn, their success historically has not been built on like a Caitlin Clark type or a juju Watkins type play where you have one player taking the bulk of the shots. In the last 20 years, only two players have ever taken more than 15 shot attempts a game over the course of a season. Megan Walker and Maya Moore. Like, this has always been a very balanced team offensively.
- [43:51]
Zena Kaida
Interesting.
- [43:52]
Chantelle Jennings
And so when you think about fit, like that is what Paige wanted. Like Paige recruited Az Fudd like she wanted her best friend beside her also taking 12 shots game, she wanted Aaliyah Edwards taking 12 shots game. Like in the Perfect world. This is a very balanced offensive team. UConn is very far from the perfect world right now. And Paige could, should, must, you know, sort of insert the word of your choice, be that player for them. Where it's like, you might need to take 24 shots a game. She's got to take more than three threes a game. I think if this team wants to be successful. She only attempted three against Notre Dame. This is a 48% three point shooter, only taking three threes a game. I know it's not their offense, but if I'm Geno, like, I'm not necessarily opposed to her bringing the ball up the court and a few shots into the shot clock, taking a three. Like, let it fly, let it rip. Like, do what you got.
- [44:42]
Zena Kaida
You got the green light, right? Exactly.
- [44:44]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah. Like, you've got the green light. Play like it. And I think there were times where it's sort of like she's passing off. And don't get me wrong, like when she and Aaliyah are in that two man game. Oh, they can be so good.
- [44:56]
Zena Kaida
Yeah, the inside out game is brutal, right?
- [44:59]
Chantelle Jennings
And, like, screen it. Like, their pick and roll can be so good. Ashlyn Shade, like, fist pump Queen of America, like, get her going a little bit. KK Arnold, like, if Nika can get shades of her back from last season, which, you know, I think we're seeing that a little bit more, like, this can still be a very good team. And again, like, they will forever be in the shadow and sort of in the comparison of the 100 plus wins in a row era and the four national titles in a row era and the 14 straight Final Fours era. Right. Like, they will forever be compared to that. They can be very good on their own and stand on that. But I think the team as they are right now, like, Paige just needs to be her, you know, like she just. Just needs to, for lack of a better word, just be a little more selfish. Like, she's got to be that player.
- [45:46]
Zena Kaida
She has to recognize that the circumstances have led her to be a player that she probably naturally doesn't need. Want to be a takeover type of player, but she's capable of doing it. We've seen her do it in multiple situations. Whether it's at UConn, whether it's on Team USA, whether, you know, whatever it is, she's capable of being that person. And so she has to own the. Things may have to shift. Just for this season. She doesn't have to be that player permanently, but just for this year. At least in situations like that, she definitely has to step up. So. Okay. I think that's great perspective on where UConn is and where they could still be. You know, don't close the window just yet on UConn. Record is still decent. I mean, I think there's a lot of teams in the country that would still want a17.4 overall record and, you know, being in a great position in conference as well. Undefeated in conference.
- [46:33]
Chantelle Jennings
To recap, I think they are underachieving with the talent they have currently in key moments. That's fixable. Yeah, the injury situation, the lack of depth, that is not fixable this year. You play the cards you're dealt. They're not playing with full deck. You just got to go with it. And I think it's fair to compare them to everything they've done as a program before, because this is UConn, and you don't go to UConn to have low expectations. You know, like, this is. This was a choice everyone made. But when I get the vibes on Twitter or elsewhere that people are, like, relishing the losses, you know, sort of having. Having gone to stores and, like, sitting with AZY ahead of the season and talking with her about what it's meant to come back, and also sort of knowing the, you know, you think about those players and, like, mentally what they've gone through over the last few years, seeing how many of their teammates have gone down, like, the human side of it, you know, And I think as a journalist and a storyteller, like, that's where I naturally go. Like, I'm much more comfortable there than sort of diving into the X's and O's of exactly why something may or may not work. But that's what I think of is sitting in that team room with AZ at the start of the season and how optimistic she was and sort of, you know, talking with her and Paige about their friendship and how Paige recruited AZ to UConn so they could play together and they could win championships together and just sort of how quickly things can change.
- [47:56]
Zena Kaida
All right, well, before we get out of here, I just want to let you guys know where to set your screens. As always, everyone here at the Athletic will be watching a few key games throughout the week. And so we want to let you know where we'll be setting our screens so that hopefully you will be able to set your screens as well. And one team that we will all have on our radar is unc. Courtney Bankhart's team has some difficult challenges up against her this week. Week number one, she'll be going up against number five, North Carolina State this week. That will happen first up on Thursday at 8pm Eastern, 5pm Pacific, and then has to follow that up with playing now number 19, Virginia Tech. And that will be on Sunday, February 4th. That'll be 9am Pacific, 12pm Eastern. So UNC has quite the challenge against them this week. Then there's going to be a lot of ground.
- [48:48]
Chantelle Jennings
Great.
- [48:48]
Zena Kaida
Key Top 25 matchups in the Pack 12 starting with Friday. USC is going up against Stanford. They'll be at Stanford Friday, February 2nd at 7pm Pacific, 10pm Eastern. So east coast, if you can stay up for that one. I don't know if you can, but it will be very exciting to see these two teams go at it. And I think everyone's got their eyes on the Pac12 after the big time losses that happened this past weekend. If you didn't know, Utah went down to Oregon State and not only did they go down, they got blown out. Oregon State beat Utah 91 to 66. UCLA also lost. They lost 82 to 85 against Washington State on Sunday. And then USC was the other PAC12 team to also lose 59 to 62 against Washington. So I think all of these teams are going to be on our radar this week because they've got some top 25 matchups. So having lost against teams that were either ranked below them or not ranked at all, you can imagine these teams are coming back with a vengeance. So usc, Stanford's going to be on Friday and then over the weekend, Lauren Betts is going to get her revenge game when UCLA goes to Stanford on Sunday at 1pm Pacific, 4pm Eastern. And then last but not least, another game that we are definitely going to be looking at. South Carolina is going to go up against Ole Miss. And even though Ole Miss is not ranked, this is going to be a great competition. These two programs are very similar in the way that their players play and the way that their coaches coach. You know, if you don't, if you follow Coach yo from Ole Miss on Twitter, you know how much respect, deep respect she has for Dawn Staley. This is like going up against one of her mentors. So I imagine that game on Sunday to be a lot of fun. Imagine that Coach yo will be running a full court press from the coach's box on the sidelines. So definitely tune in. That game is on Sunday, 11am Pacific, 1pm Eastern. All right, folks, that is all for today's episode. Appreciate you guys tuning in as always for the Athletic, I'm Zena Keda encouraging you to keep listening, keep learning and keep loving the game because that is the only way we're going to continue to grow it. All right, until next time.
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Zena Kaida
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- [52:42]
Chantelle Jennings
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [52:47]
Zena Kaida
We love getting to talk to experts.
- [52:48]
LinkedIn Sales Representative
We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us. And we also love hearing from from you.
- [52:53]
Chantelle Jennings
But the thing we love most is being a place where you can laugh.
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Liquid IV Spokesperson
A lot has changed in the last.
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LinkedIn Sales Representative
Seven years and we feel very lucky.
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Zena Kaida
That our audience is growing older with us.
- [53:02]
Chantelle Jennings
So in the spirit of that we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
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Zena Kaida
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all.
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LinkedIn Sales Representative
About aging together better and also being.
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Zena Kaida
Able to laugh about getting older.
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Chantelle Jennings
We hope you'll join us so search Laugh Lines with Kim and Pen Holderness. New episodes every Tuesday. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.