What Expansion Teams Can Learn from the Golden State Valkyries

Summary

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No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show

Episode Summary – "What Expansion Teams Can Learn from the Golden State Valkyries"

Date: August 29, 2025
Hosts: Zena Keita, Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman

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Overview

This episode is a deep dive into the trailblazing success of the Golden State Valkyries in their inaugural WNBA season. The hosts analyze what has made the Valkyries an instant sensation both on and off the court and discuss the important strategies and cultural moves that upcoming WNBA expansion teams can learn from. The conversation also touches on recent league controversies, the importance of fan culture, player branding, and the business of women's basketball.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• How the Golden State Valkyries Became Immediate Contenders: Explores their approach to team building, branding, and culture.
• Blueprint for Future WNBA Expansion Teams: Breaks down the specific lessons and elements other new teams can adopt.
• Broader Impacts On Women’s Basketball: Industry trends, player empowerment, and the future of fan and franchise engagement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ryan Howard, Atlanta Dream & Fan Allegiance (04:17–09:12)

• Summary: The episode begins by discussing Ryan Howard's public comments regarding Atlanta Dream fans chanting "MVP" for opposing star A’ja Wilson. Debate ensues on fan loyalty, superstar appeal, and underlying implications for player movement and free agency.

• Highlights:

  • Quote:
    • “When you have a great player like A’ja Wilson, who theoretically could be the best player to ever play in the WNBA, it is not unprecedented for them to get MVP chants on the road.”
      — Sabrina Merchant (06:55)
  • Ben floats a tongue-in-cheek “conspiracy theory” about the Dream wooing A’ja Wilson, given her ties to the franchise and free agency circumstances.
  • Emphasis on how close Atlanta is to South Carolina, Wilson’s college base, and how fan behaviors send signals in today’s WNBA landscape.

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2. Caitlin Clark’s Nike Logo & Player Branding (09:27–15:38)

• Summary: Discussion shifts to Caitlin Clark unveiling her long-awaited Nike signature logo—a minimalist double “C”—and how it stacks up next to Angel Reese’s Reebok and Sabrina Ionescu’s Nike signature logos.

• Highlights:

  • General consensus: The logo is sleek but feels overly corporate and “safe,” missing out on some of Clark’s personality and flair.
    • Quote:
      • “It’s giving corporate. Every time Caitlin gets dressed by Coach or Prada, people always make this joke that she looks like she’s a CEO coming to work…that’s what it gave. It gave she’s the CEO of a corporation.”
        — Zena Keita (14:43)
  • Angel Reese’s logo is hailed for its authenticity and boldness; the group agrees that how a logo appears on shoes and merch matters most long-term.

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3. The Golden State Valkyries: The Ultimate Expansion Blueprint (18:07–52:10)

A. On-Court Team Building & Strategy

• GM Oheman Yanen’s Masterclass in Roster Construction (19:25–23:31):
  • Focused on interchangeability and depth by creating a roster stocked with strong “sixth/seventh player”-types from around the league and overseas.
  • Success hinged on flexible lineups and maximizing overlooked talent.
    • Quote:
      • “They’ve gotten star level performances out of some of their expansion level players. But we’ve just seen them overwhelm teams sometimes with their depth.”
        — Ben Pickman (19:54)
• International Recruiting and Creative Scouting (21:06–26:16):
  • Leaned heavily into international markets, not just NCAA prospects.
  • Notable example: drafting Juste Jucite at No. 5, catching many observers off guard.
    • “They had good enough relationships with all of these players to convince them to come and that this would be a good opportunity…They all wanted to come back after Eurobasket.” — Sabrina Merchant (23:53)

B. Coaching & Team Identity: The Natalie Nakase Factor

• Coaching Philosophy (28:00–29:54)
  • Defense-first, high-effort, no-excuses culture forms the team’s backbone.
  • Valkyries lead the league in fewest points allowed in the paint—a testament to preparation over star power.
    • Quote:
      • “So much of their foundation is built on that end of the floor, and the principles they installed about not making excuses and competing…”
        — Ben Pickman (29:54)
  • Nakase excels at onboarding new players and making them feel like immediate contributors, a rare and valuable coaching skill.

C. What Expansion Teams Should Replicate

• Immediate Competitiveness is Possible (30:49–33:15)
  • By prioritizing proven talent who can win now (and balancing with some youth), there is no need for a multi-year “tank and rebuild.”
    • Quote:
      • “There is a pathway…to being competitive quicker than expected…They showed that you don’t have to wait to be good.”
        — Sabrina Merchant (30:49)
• Clear Identity and Process-Driven Culture
  • The “process, progress, playoffs” mantra exemplifies how to set internal expectations and keep teams focused regardless of external projections.

D. The Power of NBA Franchise Support (34:33–39:55)

• Warriors’ Organizational Muscle
  • Business, branding, and basketball ops insights drawn from the NBA parent—a significant factor in immediate success.
    • Quote:
      • “The connection to the Warriors cannot be understated…The due diligence that was done, the level of care and attention, has…permeated everything…The brand showed up, and it’s fun to consume.”
        — Zena Keita (34:51)
  • The Valkyries’ fan experience, from “Valhalla” arena branding to community engagement, raises the bar for the league.
• Contrast with Upcoming Expansion Teams
  • Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, and others (all NBA-backed) are using the Valkyries/Warriors playbook as their guide—often literally hiring away key Golden State staff.

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4. Off-Court Culture & Fan Engagement (39:55–53:13)

• Creating Brand and Atmosphere
  • Valkyries established a strong, distinct identity (colors, mascot, arena nicknames) immediately, fueling sellouts and raucous crowds with or without immediate on-court victories.
    • Quote:
      • “What they have done with the violet, with Valhalla, with just Violet the mascot…everything makes it an attractive place for fans to want to be. That’s the biggest lesson.”
        — Sabrina Merchant (47:53)
• Fan Buy-In Before Winning
  • Early support from Bay Area fans is credited to storytelling and a feeling of finally “having” a women’s team in the region.
    • Quote:
      • “I don’t think people knew Valkyries were going to be good when they bought their season tickets…They got in before there was an expectation of basketball success.”
        — Sabrina Merchant (48:53)
• Importance of Community and Resilience
  • Discussion on whether other expansion markets—sometimes with past WNBA failures—will replicate the same energy and support, especially through early struggles.

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5. Blueprint Takeaways For New Teams

Principles to Replicate:

• Build on-court competitiveness through depth, versatility, and international as well as NCAA scouting.
• Use the organizational capacity of NBA (or NWSL) parent teams for world-class branding, fan experience, and business operations.
• Craft a story and identity unique to both city and team—even before delivering wins.
• Hire coaches/leaders who are integrators and culture builders, not just tacticians.
• Don’t underestimate the power of a well-defined arena environment and naming (e.g., Valhalla).
• Invest heavily—financially and emotionally—with the understanding that success will breed copycats and staff “poaching” across the league.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Immediate Contender Status:

  • “You don’t have to wait to be good.”
    — Sabrina Merchant (30:49)

• On Coaching/Player Buy-in:

  • “It is a sludge fest...but you appreciate the effort, you do appreciate the defense.”
    — Zena Keita (29:54)

• On Branding/Fan Culture:

  • “People are referencing where they play as Valhalla [the arena nickname], and you have teams that have been established since 1997 that don’t have arenas with a name in that way.”
    — Zena Keita (34:51)

• On Player Logos:

  • “It’s giving corporate... That’s what it gave: she is the CEO of a corporation.”
    — Zena Keita (14:43)

• On Future Expansion Lessons:

  • “Anyone can invest when things are good... I am really curious what happens when things are not good.”
    — Ben Pickman (45:52)

• On Selling the Team Story:

  • “This is like sales 101—you’ve got to sell the story before you sell the product.”
    — Zena Keita (49:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Atlanta Fans & MVP Chants: 04:17–09:12
• Caitlin Clark’s Signature Logo: 09:27–15:38
• Valkyries On-Court Blueprint: 18:07–26:16
• Natalie Nakase’s Coaching Culture: 26:16–29:54
• Building Identity and Immediate Competitiveness: 29:54–34:33
• NBA Support & Off-Court Branding: 34:33–39:55
• Culture, Community, and Fan Buy-in: 39:55–53:13

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Closing & Recommendations

• Setting Your Screen (Picks & Plugs):

  • Sabrina: Strongly recommends the Diana Taurasi mini-doc (54:17–55:30)
  • Ben: Highlights must-watch playoff-implication WNBA games that weekend (55:59–57:11)
  • Zena: Adds Valkyries vs. Indiana Fever as a can’t-miss matchup

• Final Message:
  The Valkyries’ story is instructive: investment, creativity, and cultural buy-in are as essential as basketball talent. The blueprint is clear, but every expansion team must adapt it for their unique market and community.

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For first-timers and regular listeners alike, this episode provides a comprehensive look at how to build a sustainable, exciting women’s basketball franchise in today’s WNBA—on and off the court.

Transcript

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

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[Ben Pickman]

This is a breed reveal. Oh.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So, yeah, they're finding out the breed.

[Zena Keda]

Of the puppy they're rescuing, so they.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Could just be spending all their money on, like, pet insurance.

[Zena Keda]

Instead, we got lemonade for Roscoe, and it covered vaccines, microchipping. We saved 90% on vet bills.

[Ben Pickman]

Oh, here we go.

[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to no off season. I'm Zena Keda.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Ben Pickman]

And I'm Ben Pickley.

[Zena Keda]

And today on the show, we bringing it to the Bay, baby. I'm so excited. The Golden State Valkyries have defied expectations this year, becoming playoff contenders in their inaugural season. And not just that, they have lit up the Bay Area. They've created excitement and energy and vibes. It's electric out here. But how do they do it? Because I know there's a lot of teams that are wondering, how can they replicate that same level of energy. Number one, it ain't the bay, but let's, you know, let's be real. You can try. And I think the Falcons have set up a pretty good blueprint. So we're going to talk about what can the next few expansion teams learn from them. So let's get into it. But first, Ben. Hey. Welcome back. We're happy to be back.

[Ben Pickman]

Thank you.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Thank you.

[Ben Pickman]

Happy to be back, Cena. I'm doing really well. Yeah, it was nice to not really watch some basketball for a week. I've subsequently caught up on games, but I was off. Every summer in the middle of August. I do some volunteer work for an organization called Experience Camps, which is a series of one week free, free camps for kids who have had deaths in their lives to a parent, sibling, or primary caregiver. And we put on these free one week camps. I run a camp just outside New York City, two and a half hours outside the city. And it's super meaningful, it's super fulfilling, super hard, and it's a ton of fun and it is a great, great week. So nice to get away and do some of that and help make a difference and.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. And doing such a good deed. I know those kids are so grateful for you. I remember you first told me about that last year when I experienced passing in my family and I was just like, how special would it? I mean, I'm an adult, but as a kid experiencing something like that, being able to go to a camp, get your mind off of some things and be able to enjoy yourself, that's really, really special. So thank you for doing that good work and also thank you for doing your actual job and catching up on these games because there's a lot to discuss. Okay, so let's start with something a little spicy coming out of the Dream Aces game on Wednesday night. By the way, the Aces won. They're on a roll. I think I might have heard this somewhere. I could be saying this off the top of the dome, but as a person from North Carolina that loves to play spades, they're running the table right now. Okay? The Aces are doing it. And they ran away with it. They got their 12th straight win. And in the arena in Atlanta, you could hear the crowds audibly chanting, mvp.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Mvp.

[Zena Keda]

Not for Alicia Gray, not for Brianna Jones, Brittany Griner, Ryan Howard. Nope. It was the opposite side of the ball. It was for ASA star Asia Wilson. And at the post game press conference, Dream Forward Ryan Howard had this to say about it. You know, this is a challenge. Like, we rely on our fans and when they pick and choose who they want to cheer for and come in and, you know, make it feel like a away game for us and a home came for the other team, it's easy to go on a run like that, especially with playoffs coming up. Like, you want to come see Gamecops?

[Sabrina Merchant]

We have gamecops on our roster.

[Zena Keda]

The last game we had MVP chance.

[Sabrina Merchant]

For one of our players don't get here and switch up because of one player.

[Zena Keda]

And yes, we do make mistakes, but it's easy to lose momentum when you have other people cheering against you. So that's hard to do Now, Ben, my arms are crossed, my fingers are crossed, my legs are crossed. It's a little awkward, okay. But it's real. I actually respect everything that Ryan had to say. You've been following this Atlanta team closely since the beginning of the season. What are your thoughts here?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, I have really no issue with what Ryan Howard has to say or her frustration here because the Gateway center, where the Atlanta Dream play, is probably the most intimate environment in the WNBA. Not even 4,000 people or around 4,000 people fit in that arena. In basketball games, it really is just one lower bowl. So I was not at this game, obviously, but I can totally imagine just from being there previously, like, those chants, you can hear them if they were very, very loud and piercing through. And so, yeah, I mean, she is right to want to spur the Atlanta fans on to create more of a pro Atlanta environment. And it is especially telling or especially important because, look, the stakes of what the Atlanta Dream are playing for now are about as high as the franchise maybe has ever had or certainly had in, you know, five to 10 years. Right? This is a team that could be the number two seed heading into the playoffs. It's not out of the question to say that they would make the finals. Maybe they slipped to a number three seed. I see Sabrina shaking her head for all those who are just listening to the podcast. And so Ryan is really just trying to, I guess, like, shake the snow globe a little bit and change the energy going forward. And so, look, we have players call out players. We have coaches call out players in this moment.

[Zena Keda]

Like, I'm.

[Ben Pickman]

I'm okay with her calling out fans who are attending Gateway center games.

[Zena Keda]

Oh, yeah. You know, the fans will be quick to come back and call her out. So, Sabrina, what are your thoughts on this?

[Sabrina Merchant]

When you have a great player like Asia Wilson, who theoretically could be the best player to ever play in the wnba, it is not unprecedented for them to get MVP chance on the road. Right? Like, this is a thing that happens in arenas, you know, for great players. Like, you know, I think about when Kobe Bryant got MVP chance at Madison Square Garden or in Boston. Right? Boston. Think about that as a Laker. Like, Asia Wilson is the best player in the world. Like, it is okay that she is Getting MVP chance when she is playing like the best player in the world, even if that is in Atlanta, which we should mention. Very close to South Carolina, the closest WNBA team to South Carolina, where Asia Wilson wouldn't, you know, has a statue because she was so goddamn good at basketball at the University of South Carolina. I did think it was funny when Ryan Howard was like, we have South Carolina players too. Gotta say, you know, y' all want.

[Zena Keda]

To play Gamecocks on the roster.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Two years of tahina powpow does not add up to all of what Asia Wilson means to the Gamecock South Carolina. But I just think, like, this is what fans are entitled to do, right? I think they're all wearing like A1s too. It was very, very pro Asia crowd as they are entitled to be. If that is the closest opportunity you get to watching Asia Wilson, like, you should take advantage of it. So I just thought it was strange in a game where, you know, Atlanta's what loses the third quarter, 21 to 6. And like, there are a lot of reasons why Atlanta did not play well enough to win that basketball game to come out and blame the fans. Like, I didn't. I didn't love that.

[Ben Pickman]

Look, Sabrina, can I throw out one, you know, may broader conspiratorial part of this that I don't think we've talked about yet. Asia Wilson is a free agent. Again, there's no reporting on this, so I'm coming back in with a big theory right off the top. Asia Wilson, a free agent, one of her best friends in maybe the world, certainly in the wnba. Alicia Gray, a member of the Atlanta Dream. She shares representation with a number of other players on the Atlanta Dream. I believe in Canada.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Nas Hillman. Yep.

[Ben Pickman]

All clutch king clients. Dan Padover, the general manager of the Atlanta Dream, actually drafted Asia Wilson when he was still with the Las Vegas Aces. Is there any way. Is there any way they're just trying to, you know, make Asia feel welcomed in the event that something cataclysmic happens in Las Vegas and they say, Asia, you know, I know we play in a small arena, but look, we're training MVP for you as a role player. Like, come on down, sign with the Atlanta Dream. What do we think of this theory overall?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Ryan's not making her feel welcome. And Ryan's still going to be on the team.

[Zena Keda]

Well, you know, I like this. I like you positing this theory, Ben. I'm not against this, especially. Atlanta is a little bit closer to home than Vegas is for an Asia Wilson. And as you mentioned, there's little sprinkles of Asia all around this roster already, particularly in the footwear. But of course, in the connections that you just laid out. I think about the Ryan Howard comments, I particularly think that if they hadn't made the run, they did in that fourth quarter, because you're right, it was 21 to 6 in the third. It was like 27 to 20 in the fourth, and it was close. It was like 70, then 72. Like, they went back and forth, and it was a tight game. I think that is probably what was gut piercing was, you know, Asia Wilson hitting those back to back threes, and it's like, oh, we're running for it. We're making a run after we just had a terrible third quarter. Y' all ain't got our back. Come on. Like, we're trying to get this closed out and win this game and break the streak, by the way. And it's just like, yeah, I can imagine why Reinhard was feeling a type of way, but, you know, Ben, there's certain things that keep me up at night, and I don't know if I'm going to add that to the list. That's an interesting one. That's an interesting one. Okay, let's keep it moving. Caitlin Clark. No, no update. She's not back on the court. That's. Don't. Don't get excited, folks. Don't turn the volume back down if you turn it up for that. But no, she's not back on the court yet. But she did do something really special, and she finally unveiled her logo. Now, you gotta think back to when she had just graduated or left ncaa. There was the announcement that she was going to get this signature deal with Nike, and it was like, oh, my God, when is it coming? When's it gonna happen? Et cetera. Well, the time is here, folks. She officially has her logo as a Nike signature athlete revealed. And the way it was described, at least, you know, we're gonna put it up on our YouTube. But for those listening, it's two interwoven Cs that connect, and in the middle, make a third C. But the interwoven Cs reflect Caitlyn's magnetic connection with fans around the globe who are drawn to her unwavering confidence, steadfast commitment, and remarkable shooting ability. Tucked between the larger letters is a smaller, hidden C that represents how Caitlin's game was built from the inside out. A product of her passion for the sport, relentless drive, and constant pursuit of perfection. Ooh, copywriters are at work with that one. That's a good one. So, of course, we have seen a ton of logos come out as of late. We've seen Angel Reese's with Reebok, where you could see the A and the R in her logo. We've seen the Sabrina, like, Sabrina Ionescu S. That kind of gives me that vibe of, like, the S's you used to draw in your notebook back in the day, that very thick, broad print of that. We've seen the A1 with the star. There's just been so many different logos we've seen of women in last few years. So where do you guys think that this interwoven sea Caitlyn logo kind of stacks up?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, it's fine, right? Like, it kind of brings to mind the Chanel logo, right?

[Ben Pickman]

Yes.

[Sabrina Merchant]

You know, I. Sabrina, you're hilarious. All due respect to the copywriters, I like this logo so much less hearing all of the description behind it. Like, what does all that mean?

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, it was a lot of fluff.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm not gonna lie. Everyone calls her, like, Cece on the team. I get it. Like, having the two Cs there makes a lot of sense. It is very, you know, authentic to Caitlyn. So, I mean, like, I'll see it on a shirt or on a shoot. I'm sure it'll be, like, totally fine. I don't think it's as necessarily interesting, so to speak, as, like, the Asia Wilson logo, where, like, we were debating, like, what is this even, like, supposed to be for so long? There was definitely a little bit more straightforward element here. But Asia and Caitlin are very different people.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm sure, like, this is more in line with what Caitlin wanted. And, you know, I think it'll look perfectly fine on whatever merchandise eventually comes out from Nike.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, Ben?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I think I agree and would have said it the exact same way. I mean, it's fine. And that was the most common answer we received at the Athletic. Our colleague Dan Shanoff writes this Money Call newsletter, and he basically conducted a poll, and I think around 600 people responded to it. And the two answers that received the most feedback. Feedback were literally, quote, I mean, it's fine. That got 41 of all the responses, and the second most responded to, I think 38, 39% was. Doesn't do it for me. And to all those people, like, you know, I don't know how much really separates. I mean, it's fine. And doesn't do it for me. They both feel like a kind of a Shrug reaction. I. I totally agree with you, Sabrina. I think Angel's logo of the recent signature athlete logos is. Is my personal favorite. It both feels super authentic to her. It's very clean. It's kind of flowy and has rhythm to it. I think it's a really, really nice logo. And it looks good on the shoes that, you know, Reebok has put out. The Caitlyn one, like, yeah, recognizable, no issues with it. Don't know if I could do better in the design process. I don't know if any of us on this call could.

[Zena Keda]

Right, right, right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm obviously partial to the Sabrina logo because, like Zena said, I spent all of my time drawing that in my notebooks. As y', all, you can imagine why.

[Zena Keda]

Right. There's a lot of millennials on this show. I think we're all millennials here. The three lines across vertically at one line, and then one. The next row, three lines, and then you connect them diagonally. You make your little top hat, your little bottom V, and boom.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It resonates with me, I'll give you that.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

And I'm from North Carolina, so NC State used the hell out of that S. And so, yeah, I'm very familiar with it. But, yeah, I texted you guys when I saw this logo, and what I thought immediately, and it's giving corporate. And what's really funny about that is that every time that Caitlin, like, gets dressed by, like, Coach or Prada, people always make this joke that she looks like she's a CEO coming to work. She has a very clean style when she gets dressed up, which I don't mind, but that's what it gave. It gave. She is the CEO of a corporation, and this is the corporate logo. The font is too serious for me. It didn't give what I have. Like, when I watch Caitlyn, I have fun with the logo threes and all that. I wanted to something that gave me something. And then the other thing is the.

[Ben Pickman]

Energy of her game. Like, something about the energy of her game.

[Zena Keda]

Like, it's fun. Exactly. And this was, like, very serious.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Think about, like, Paige has those PEs, right, where she has, like, the PB that's sort of like in a bucket with, like, the Paige buckets.

[Ben Pickman]

And, like, that's.

[Sabrina Merchant]

That's fun, right?

[Zena Keda]

Yes, right. Exactly. So, like, I wanted a little bit more of, like, Caitlyn's personality, because I think this didn't serve Caitlyn in terms of, like, making her more, like, there's more to her than this, like, corporate vibe. To, you know, her brand. Everyone talks about how funny she is and how like interesting she is and like whatever. And I just didn't feel like this really served it. But I will say this, it's my only saving grace. There is something to be said on how it can show up on shoes and like where they place it, how they place could grow on me. It could really grow on me from that perspective. So I am excited to see what that looks like at the end of the day. Congratulations, Caitlin. That is so awesome. It is such a feat to be able to become a signature athlete anywhere, to get your own shoe, to have the Rollo that they did, which was really cool. And I'm excited to go see, you know, what it ends up being. All right, let's dive in to a team in the bay. Don't go anywhere. We got to talk about the Valkyries next. If you love to travel, Capital One has a rewards credit card that's perfect for you. With the Capital One Venture X card, you earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy.

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[Zena Keda]

So I am particularly excited to get into our deep dive for today because as our loyal listeners already know, I live here. I live in the Bay Area. I do some work with the Valkyries. I'm an analyst on their pregame, postgame halftime and I've been very fortunate to have a front row seat to all of this, the growth, the expansion, the fans, everything that's been so shiny and fun about their inaugural season and it just happens to be a record breaking, unbelievable, stupidly great, stellar one. So it's also, what's so special about it is that it's not just on the court, right? We've been talking about the fact that the Valkyries are blowing everyone's expectations. It's everything. It's the culture around the team, it's the branding around this team. It's everything. The story that the Valkyries have built for themselves in the Bay. So we want to dive into it to see what other expansion teams can learn. Because remember, in case any of you were really busy coming up in the next five years, make room, there's going to be five more, five more teams in years to come. So first things first, let's talk about the hoop, right? Let's talk about the hoop. As Damon Lillard says in the Bay, it's not hoops, it's not basketball, it's hoop. So let's talk about their on court strategy. Ben, what have been the key factors to the success in their game this year?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean it starts at the top and how this roster has been constructed by general manager Ohemanian. Because I think one of the things that has struck me and I think struck a lot of people is the interchangeableness, the interchangeable nature of this roster's construction. How they have toggled, especially in the early part of the season, different lineups, different starting lineups, different combinations, how certain nights certain players would play, how certain nights other players would not play and they would kind of very much mix it up in a matchup dependent way. And I think one of the things it spoke to was just the depth on the roster was on full display and has continued to be on full display. Like one of the benefits of building the team through an expansion draft the way that they did, you know, all these players, they might have been the sixth or seventh best player on their old teams and they have a roster of those players now we will get into and we have seen someone like Kayla Thornton make an all star team, her first ever. Veronica Burton go from being a role player to a legitimate all WNBA contender. So they've gotten star level performances out of some of their expansion level players. But we've just seen like them overwhelm teams sometimes with their depth. And I think that is a credit to their front office's scouting staff, to their front office and how they built this roster. And I think that is one of the big takeaways when I think about Golden State before we even get into the. How they play stylistically, that. That just stands out when you watch them time and time again.

[Zena Keda]

And Betty, I mean, you've seen, ahem, and Yanen's background as well, because she was involved with the way that the Liberty were created. I don't think that enough people know that. How did she help Jonathan Kolb with what the Liberty are like today?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean, she was pretty important, really. Jonathan was her most recent mentor. She did a lot that was both behind the scenes kind of operationally, and I believe she played that kind of role, too, in the past with USA Basketball and then also continued to do more and more scouting as her tenure in New York progressed. She was one of the people, say, who was on their recruiting trip to Turkey when they went to go meet Brianna Stewart when she was playing for Fenner before she signed with New York Liberty, like, oh, hell, was getting experience in those meetings, in those high leverage conversations. So she played a very important role in New York. That's why they honored her back here in Brooklyn when they won the title this past season. They gave her a championship ring and, you know, acknowledge her before the first Valkyries Liberty game. Like, she had a lot of love and respect within that organization. That's why, you know, it was definitely a loss in their minds that she went to Golden State. They still haven't exactly officially replaced her or named a subsequent agm, and that just speaks to the impact that she had here, too.

[Zena Keda]

I'll never forget the fact that Jonathan Kolb was at her press conference when she was announced at Golden State. You know, flew in for it. And I just thought that that was always very telling of the relationship they had and the respect that he has for her. Sabrina, when I think about Ohemanyan and Ben, I love the fact that you referenced the fact that she went to Turkey to talk to Brianna Stewart to get her over to New York or help get her over to New York. There's something to be said about the fact that Ohema has done a great job of getting international players to come and participate on this team as well. You know, the first notion that there's a lot of focus on international player was, I think, when we saw the draft happen and the number five pick goes to Golden State as the expansion team, and they go with Juste Yuchite, and everyone's like, what? Who. What's going on here? And once you do a little bit more research, you're like, oh, wait, no, that's actually a really great player. But not only just Ohema, but also Vanja Cernovitz, who was also on her team. There was this element of international play. All play, not just NCAA play, but all play is going to be a factor in the way that we show up on the floor. Talk a little bit about, you know, what you've seen from that aspect in terms of how this team has come together and really the international play, the European style, feeding into the interchangeability and the versatility that this team has had on the court.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. I think you can look back even to the expansion draft as to when their focus on international players really became clear because they drafted players like Cecchi Zandelicini and Temi Fagbenley and Ileana Ripert and Carla L. And Steph Talbot no longer on the team, but just a bunch of international players making up the core of their roster even before we get to free agency or the WNBA draft. And you know, at the time it was, oh, my God, are all of them going to be able to play for Golden State where, like, it's a Euro basket year, like, what are they going to do? And they just figured it out, right? Like, they had good enough relationships with all of these players to convince them to come to Golden State, that this would be a good opportunity for them. And they all wanted to come back after Eurobasket. Right. Like, and some of them even chose not to go to Eurobasket because of the experience that they were having in Golden State. Right. So I think it's just like a different way of thinking about roster building because this wasn't a team that had a lot of luck in free agency. Right. Like, a lot of their big name targets didn't end up coming to Golden State and they weren't able to make waves and signing trades because they didn't have a lot of assets to trade. Right. So they had to appeal to the international market and look for different ways of acquiring talent. And you see that with like, Janelle Salon, who came over, even like a Chloe Bibby, right. Who had a role on Golden State before she ended up making her way to Indiana later in the season. But. But as the league expands, I think Golden State is just showing that you have to be more creative in how you approach roster building. It can't just be. Everything comes from the NCAA pipeline. There are lots of different professional basketball leagues around the world, lots of different players who maybe will be interested in playing if you give them a chance. And what was so cool about Golden State was they were able to give 12 to 15 players a chance, depending on how many you count during Eurobasket, right? And the opportunity that doesn't really exist everywhere else in the WNBA where you come and you're just going to be a live body in training camp, you know, like, they actually gave everybody a realistic chance of making the roster, of being a part of this team. And like Ben was mentioning, because of that interchangeability in how they make the rotations, everybody actually gets to play, right? Like Cheshire, Zaina Lesini, you know, gets ruled out unexpectedly. Kayla Charles, hardship player. Like, she got a real opportunity to play with the Golden State Valkyries, and now I think she's finishing out the season there. So to me, like, it's not even so much the roster building and all due credit to, like, Ohama and Vanya, but. But this is like a Natalie Nikase situation. Hiring her as the first coach in the franchise, to me, sets the culture because she. Nobody works harder than Natalie, right? She comes with the championship pedigree, but yet she has a championship pedigree and also just this giant chip, right? Because of what her career has looked like, right? Because she was an undersized point guard at ucla. You know, she had to just work her way up through all of the coaching ranks or all of the playing ranks. And that attitude, I think, just forms, like, the foundation of what Golden State has become. And yeah, the talent matters. Obviously, the talent matters, but, like, sure, her being able to coax that out of everyone, I think, is, to me, like, the most important part of what this cultural experience in Golden State has been.

[Zena Keda]

Real quickly before we keep going on Natalie, because I bet I definitely want to get your thoughts on her as well. To your point about, you know, all these players getting opportunities, it is so interesting every time a team comes through to play Golden State, I mean, at least three, four teams around the league, you're like, oh, they were with Golden State at one point, right? You're looking at Mamino Toura in Connecticut. You're looking at Chloe Bibby. You're looking at Seth Talbot. You're looking at Julie Van Leeuwen. There's so many players that have come from this program that may have not been able to retain attention, right? Let alone a spot, but attention by scouts and coaches and GMs, had they not shown off their skills and their ability to stretch the floor, to play defense, to do whatever it is. And it's so cool to be able to see that these players have found it, landed spots, and it's kind of come from their time in training camp or with the team throughout the season. But. But every single player that has come through the ranks of Golden State keeps talking about this and Kyla Charles just mentioned this as well. Having been on hardships and now being on a rest of season like Natalie Nakase, Ben makes this so easy for the players to adjust and become a part of this system. It is one of the things that I think any coach that can find a way to get the best out of a player but most importantly can find a way to include players and make them feel like they can contribute immediately. That is a hard skill. That is a very, very tough skill and that's one of the things that Naelikase does incredibly well. What have you seen out of the identity that Nikase has developed in her system? And is this something that you think that Nikase could have done with anyone or is it that the tandem of what Oheman Yanen and her team pulled out of talent plus Natalie dicase worked so well.

[Ben Pickman]

Natalie from the outset of the expansion draft really did talk a lot about their defense, right. And how even if offense might not travel like defense really does travel and you can see pretty much in every Valkyries game the intentionality and the focus on the defensive end of the floor. And to me one of the stats that is most telling and we should say Golden State just about league average in terms of defensive rating but they are the best defense in terms of opponents paint points in the league, right? They average or they give up fewer than 30 paint points to their opponents per game, 29.6 per game. And what that tells me is that's not a function necessarily just of talent. Because if you look at Golden State's front court compared to the Aces compared to the Liberty compared to the Dream compared to Phoenix like you go down the list. Minnesota obviously like there are more skilled, more talented, bigger experienced centers and forwards on some of these other rosters. And so to have a team that leads the league in opponent pain points in the fewest allowed per league like a lot of that is scheme and a lot of that is just effort like she has gotten them to buy in on. We are going to collapse. We are going to clog the paint, we are going to compete. We sometimes see Golden State struggle on the offensive glass but that is a little bit of a function of their system and they get out and scramble like Golden State allows the most three point attempts in the league of any team and they are basically of the mind like we're Going to get out, we're going to scramble, we're going to contest. And if teams make shots, they make shots. But like, you're not going to beat us on the effort we bring. And if a player gets tired as we're talking about, she takes him out and she puts another very, very good player in. Like, so much of their foundation is just built on that end of the floor. And the, the principles that they installed about not making excuses and competing like we're a broken record. But that is one of the words that they talk about over and over and over again. Xena, you know that as well as anyone.

[Zena Keda]

Oh yeah, yeah. Grit, effort, resiliency. Like, these are the words that are consistently brought up to talk about the way that every, every Valkyries player plays. It is why it is a sludge fest. Sometimes it can be hard watching some of these games or you're watching your teams that are coming into Valhalla, particularly when they're at home and they're teams that may average more than 80 points a game and they're like struggling to get 13 in the first like quarter. It's, it's like, it can be tough sometimes to watch, but it's like you appreciate the effort, you do appreciate the defense. But now here's the thing, Sabrina. Natalie's don't grow on trees. You know what I mean? Ohemas don't grow on trees. There's a ton of talent within the league. But if you're an expansion team, what are you learning from what the Valkyries did to build the product they have on the court that you could possibly implement? I'm gonna start with you and then bet. I wanna ask you too.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think what the Valkyries have shown is that there is an ability to be competitive immediately. You know, our thought process heading into this expansion process was that, oh, these teams are going to have to acquire a lot of young talent and acquire a lot of draft picks and sort of organically build and like, it'll take some time for them to figure out their footing in the W. And Golden State was just like, no, no, we don't have to do that. We can take players who are immediately competitive now and put them together and create this recipe of like a team people want to watch that they want to root for. And that is going to be a real pain in the ass for opposing teams to have to play against. And it was something we talked about during the expansion draft of like, you know, could they have taken like a Diamond Miller and Alyssa Peely from Minnesota no, they took Chachi Sandalusini because they knew she could work right now. And, like, could they have taken an Emily Engsler or someone from Washington? No, they went with Julie Van Loo because they're like, that's going to make an impact in our locker room right now. And admittedly not longer on the team. But, like, I think the point still stands, right? Like, she was an important factor in, like, the culture they were trying to build at the start of the season. So there is a pathway, I think, to being competitive quicker than expected if you, you know, prioritize certain things. Right. It's not like Golden State doesn't have young talent to build forward with. Right? Like, they have Janelle Salon, they have Carla Lee, they have Kate Martin on a rookie contract. Like, there are players. Veronica Burton's still very young. Right? So I think they did a better job of balancing than might have been expected. Like, might have been possible for expansion teams previously. Like, they showed. No. Like, there are ways of navigating, like, both timelines, so to speak. I didn't mean to edit that.

[Zena Keda]

Wait, hold up, y'.

[Sabrina Merchant]

All.

[Zena Keda]

Sabrina's being shady. Okay? This is the two timeline concept is. We are sensitive to those terms in the Bay, okay. And not for WNBA purposes, for NBA purposes. But let's continue. Ben, on that same note of, like, the blueprint and setting up actual success on the court and being able to be competitive early. One of the biggest things that Nikase was saying early in the season was we're not worried about what people are expecting of us. We want to get the process right, and we want to make sure that we get progress. Now we just keep going from piece to piece to piece. It was process progress. Now it's playoffs, right? They're talking about the playoffs now. And so this, I think the mindset is something that also could be taken as a blueprint. As Sabrina is saying, you don't have to wait to be good. But in terms of, like, quickly establishing an identity on the court, that feels like it's hard to do. What are your thoughts on that?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean, it does, but I do think, like, this is one of the things I am watching. Certainly this year has been an unquestioned success, but to make the leap between a great story and a legitimate contender, like, there is still a big gap that needs to be filled. And there was no way, obviously, they were going to do that in year one. But, like, progress, to use one of the P's you just mentioned, Xena is not always linear in professional sports. The wnba, the NBA, other leagues. Like, just because you have such a great year this year does not necessarily mean that next year you're going to be able to replicate the success. Whether that is. Because in the WNBA there's going to be expansion drafts, there's going to be so much free agency, there's going to be college drafts, there are injuries that happen. Like there's just, just change. And so yeah, Golden State, like undoubtedly like a great story and a successful season. That doesn't necessarily mean next year they're going to be the four seed or the five seed. Like I think it's hard to, to pencil them in there. But if I can ask you, Xena, because I know you've just laughed about the two timelines, warriors part of this, and maybe this is a basketball thing question, maybe it's a business conversation, but like what impact do you feel like the, the relationship to the warriors, the support from the parent company.

[Zena Keda]

Oh yeah.

[Ben Pickman]

Has had in whether it's, you know, player experience, whether it is in hirings, whether that is on the business side. Because I think that is one of the other things that has really struck. It's hard not to be struck by some of the, the business and fan experience components that they have unveiled this year.

[Zena Keda]

I'm really happy you asked that question because it's actually the next topic that I wanted to hit on is the success off the court really quickly. I do want to button up that point. Sabrina, you mentioned about who they got on this team because that is exactly the thing I've been like repeating to folks that are like, who are these people? They got like, how do they make this roster together? And it's like these were established pedigrees. Like these were established players. And even if they weren't established in the way that we've seen them now. Example of Veronica Burton, you knew what to expect and they basically took all these players that were like, we know what you can bring and then we're put you in the system and we're going to probably, you know, pull more things out of you. But it was something that all of these expansion teams will have the opportunity to do is get players what you know, they're capable of doing and then build off of that. Now to get back to your point, Ben, the connection to the warriors cannot be understated in my opinion, especially because when we're talking about the success off the court. And we can also point to the on the court aspect. I've said this in many interviews about the Valkyries and Panels and things like that. I'm not on NDA, so I don't think. I don't. I can't share this, but when I used to work for the warriors on the business side, I was part of the task force that helped put together this concept of what bringing a WNBA team to the Bay was like. And when I tell you about the due diligence that was done, I represented the partnerships arm because I worked in sports partnerships, but it was like basketball operations was involved. Nick Uren, the GM currently of the Phoenix Mercury, was representative of the basketball aspect. He had to do all of this research that we presented to the ownership about what type of players should we bring in. Should they be three point oriented? Should they be two point oriented, like, to the point of like, what's their production out on the floor? It was incredibly detailed. And that level of care and that level of attention has, I think, permeated through everything that we've seen in the way that the Valkyries have unveiled themselves to not only the Bay, but to the WNBA overall. You think about the way that the brand showed up, right? Everyone's like thinking, maybe it's going to be close to this, the blue and gold that the warriors have. And they're like, nope, we're going a completely different way. And it's impeccable of a color. The Valkyrie's violet is gorgeous. But then they break down their logo. They break down why they're a Valkyrie. They do this whole rollout. They get Kalani. I mean, you want to talk about BAE connections. I mean, they do everything to put all this together into a story that is easy to consume. And not only is it easy to consume, it's fun to consume. I mean, within one year, they've got Valhalla. And it's a thing. People are referencing where they play as a location with a name, right? And you've got teams that have been established since 1997 that don't have arenas with a name in that way. Right. And so I think all of that comes from the fact that the warriors had established that for themselves. And it's the same organization, it's the same leadership that's passing that on. Rorkel is a thing. Even though they don't play in Warocle anymore, that was a thing. And then the standard that they set with Chase center in this new building that is gorgeous and beautiful and it has amazing food and all the like, that's now the same standard that they've set for their WNBA team. Culturally, the Bay has a High standard for basketball, especially in recent years, because, yeah, like, you have a team that makes it to the Western Conference finals and the Finals and wins three out of the last four when they go to the finals in the NBA, it's like, yeah, or excuse me, last five. Like, it's like, okay, this is like, pretty important to win in the Bay. And we have to follow that same standard. Joe Lacob announces for every of his team. He did it for the warriors, he did it for Santa Cruz, he's done it for the Valkyries. Gotta win a championship in five years. That is a bar, okay? And I don't mean like a bar like he's saying some stuff. I'm talking about a bar, a standard to meet, okay? And this is the lineage of the Valkyries. So that's my perspective on the connection to the NBA. This NBA team, the warriors, that are a diamond in the NBA, they're a diamond in the Bay Area, setting the. The stage for the Valkyries to be able to take off. So now I want to turn it back to you guys. Sabrina, I'll start with you thinking about the fact that these expansion teams, all of them are tied to NBA franchises, and it's a different story this time around. A lot of folks have thoughts about, oh, why would you give teams to NBA owners when they did them dirty way back in the day? They closed down on them, they shut down, they let them fold. They didn't take care of these teams. Why would you turn around and give them back? Well, this time they ain't paying a couple hundred thousand. They ain't paying a couple million. They're paying 250 million for these teams. It's a little bit more of an investment, a little bit more of something they care about. So what is the blueprint for these NBA teams and the connections that they're going to have to the WNBA teams? What's the blueprint that the warriors and the Valkyries have set up, in your opinion?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, there's so many things I can say to that. But to start, you know, you have three NBA markets in Cleveland, Detroit and Philadelphia who will be debuting in 28, 29, and 30 who are directly attached to their NBA ownership. And I think those are the most direct comparisons to Golden State. You have shared facilities, like shared infrastructure. There's lots of institutional knowledge already there that can help you build a basketball brand that not necessarily has to duplicate what the NBA brand looks like, as we saw with the Valkyries. Right. Like they're female Warriors. Right. Like there is a connection, but it is, it stands on its own. Right. So I think just in terms of building the business part of it, I think there's a lot of strength to being associated with the NBA brand. And that's why, you know, the WNBA chose these markets. Again, these are not the same owners who gave up on the WNBA teams. Right. Different people on these teams. It should be mentioned the experience of who made this possible with Golden State. I think you're going to see a lot of those tentacles replicated across the wnba. I mean, you look at Jess Smith who launched an NWSL expansion team in LA before moving to become the president of the Valkyries. Now you look at Cleveland. Allison Howard launched a NWSL expansion team in Kansas City before moving to Cleveland. Wnba, right. Portland Fire hiring Golden State's assistant, Genevieve. There are already examples being set by Golden State that I think other teams are going to look to directly replicate. Right. If not taking their people personally, mimicking the model that they set up. Right. Because as much as we talk about their on court success, I think the fact that sellouts for all of their home games leading the league in attendance, the atmosphere of Golden State games, all of that is equally important, if not more so, because that you don't know how many of these free agents are going to come back next year, but you do know that those 18,000 people in the building are gonna keep coming back. And I think that is the part that is more replicable. It's like the culture, the story, those things. Yeah, you can't use what the Bay has done. But I think taking the care to develop that identity is so important to what the Valkyries have become this year.

[Zena Keda]

And Ben Sabrina hits a really good point on the mimicry that we're about to see. Right. We're talking about it's setting the blueprint. But let's just be real. These leagues, it's incestuous. You're gonna find a lot of the same folks that were in these spaces show up in new places doing the same thing. And you've got insight on one of those that Sabrina just mentioned. The gm, the assistant GM for the Valkyries has been hired at Portland. What can you tell us about that?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I mean Vanya Chernovich is going to be the general manager of the Portland Fire. She was hired earlier this week officially in that role. And she is someone who, you know, has only just been at Golden State for one year, previously had a really successful tenure at the London Lions, a Euro basket or Euro cup club that we have mentioned on this Podcast multiple times before. Sabrina and I very much often talk about the success they had there. And she previously also worked at NBA for like the NBA international arm, both identifying talent across the world as part of the NBA Academy women's program. She also was the Chicago Bulls, an international scout there, the first female international scout that that franchise has ever had. So someone who is well aware of basketball at all levels and basketball around the globe. And you know, I haven't asked her this point blank, but I have to imagine that had Golden State not had the amount of success that they have had this year, like maybe she's not as appealing of a candidate. Like, it's hard to again, put another way, like the success that they have had. I think, I'm sure it played a role in her candidacy, in her being able to talk about the vision for Portland. And she did acknowledge in her introductory press conference that Portland will not be a carbon copy of Golden State. She was pretty clear about that. Their ownership is very different. Right. Golden State, we've talked about the connection between the warriors and the Valkyries, while Portland's kind of affiliate franchise is the Portland Thorns of the nwsl, not the Portland Trailblazers of the NBA. So already there is a huge difference in infrastructure, potentially in culture. Right. This is a women's professional sports team and a women's professional sports team, not a NBA team and a WNBA team. That is one, you know, just very, very big difference. And so, yeah, I think Vanya, though is a testament to like, is already the most public facing example of the, the tentacles of the Valkyries spreading. Right. And, and surely the experience she had in hiring a coach or being a part of that process, in creating a culture, in being malleable to expansion draft rules. Golden State did not know the expansion draft rules confirmed when at this time last year. Right. There was still a lot of uncertainty about what the protections would be, what would the rules be. We're in this position right now. There's still a bunch of uncertainty about rules, about timing for when the expansion draft will be. So having someone who I think has proven to create successful environments amid uncertainty like that should only serve Portland well going forward.

[Zena Keda]

So now my question is, even if you were to take every single person from the Valkyries, that's front office, that's talent, that's coaches, that's whatever. And you spread them all across the expansion team cities, you'd have an expansion draft of Swords.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Xena, of course.

[Zena Keda]

Exactly. But like, it's about the soil in which these seeds would be planted, right? And we've just talked a little bit about some of the soils, the NBA team you're affiliated with, the aspect of the community in which you're, you know, you're planted in, how you tell the story of your seed and it's where it's being planted. And I want to ask you guys, like looking at some of these teams that are in cities that used to have a WNBA team, are they more set up to be successful or you know, is this an opportunity for them to kind of rebrand themselves? How do you guys think these expansion teams will do in terms of like the support around them?

[Ben Pickman]

I think one of the things that I am most interested in about this process is what happens when a team is not good, when things are not clean, when hires are delayed, when there isn't an investment to the same degree, when the basketball product itself struggles and like is not as competent as what the Golden State Valkyries have done. Because that is I think like an even greater test. Like anyone can be, can invest and pour in when things are good. But I am really curious about what happens when things are not good. Right. Because that is like really another test here because inevitably like not all these teams are going to be able to replicate the success that Golden State has had. That is both from a business standpoint and a basketball standpoint. And so the question is then how soon does a team start to turn over hires? How soon does a team start to make that self reflection about what didn't go right or right initially and start to veer and make a certain decision? Like all that is really fascinating. You can turn to, I don't know, the NHL, like I'm by no means an NHL expert here, but like the Vegas Golden Knights, didn't they make the finals in their very first year in their inaugural season?

[Zena Keda]

So did the Seattle Kraken, didn't they? No wait, the Seattle Kraken didn't play well either their first year.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I feel like it was a much longer process for the Kraken.

[Ben Pickman]

The point being like you have a team like the golden knights in the NHL who is an expansion team and makes the 27, 2018 Stanley Cup. And then you have some expansion teams that have like far less success. I mean look at the NBA, like the Charlotte Hornets Bobcats. Sabrina, like what's their most successful season? Like I couldn't tell you.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Series in the last 20 years? I couldn't tell you.

[Ben Pickman]

Right. Like you just get varying degrees and so what happens next for all these clubs? Super fascinating.

[Zena Keda]

Interesting. Sabrina, what do you Think about this in terms of the. With the success other markets can have.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I think that's why the off court stuff is so important in terms of, you know, developing a culture and identity and a place fans want to come to. You know, like a, an inclusive environment. Because maybe you decide if you're Portland, that your best course of action is tanking for two years to get Sarah Strong in the 2028 draft. Like, I don't. I think that's a perfectly fine reason. Like, that is a very reasonable. That's a good way of building a team, frankly. Like, if they. That's your strategy, I get it. But you also have to keep, you know, interest for two years. Right. It's. It's not just about the encore product. It's about, you know, making sure that everything else fits the community and fits the identity of the people who are coming to your games. And like, that's why I think Golden State, like, as much as we talked about Natalie and Ohama building a team that is good on the court, what they have done, like with the violet, with Valhalla, with just violet, right. Like violet the mascot, I should say, separate from the color violet. Everything just makes it an attractive place for fans to want to be. And that, I think is the biggest lesson to take from Golden State is like, I don't think people knew that the Valkyries were going to be good when they bought their season tickets, right? Like, I don't think they knew they're going to be good for the first five, six games of, you know, home games when they were crowding that building and making it a raucous place to play. You know, they got in before there was an expectation of basketball success. And that is what teams have to copy.

[Zena Keda]

I mean, this is like sales 101. You got to sell the story before you sell the product. And that's very real.

[Ben Pickman]

It takes me back to a story that, that Ohema actually told our colleague Chantelle Jennings earlier this year about like a moment that stands out in her mind of the success of this team. And it was after their very first loss, if you remember, Golden State lost by 17 points on opening night. But during that game, you know, all these fans were cheering. They were screaming, Xena, I don't know if you were in the building or just in studio for it.

[Zena Keda]

Like, I was in studio.

[Ben Pickman]

The energy was palpable, right? It was. There was a buzz and they lost by 17 points. And you would expect this buzz for the opening game of a season. But then at their next home game people showed up and people brought the same energy and the same reaction. And for her, ohima was saying, like, that was a point, that that was meaningful or a sign at least of what was to come. Because anyone can show up on night one. The question is, if you lose night one by 20 points, what happens in night two and night three and night four? And we have certainly seen, as Sabrina was saying, the tale of the Valkyries. The success that they've had. It's been there. The interest. No matter whether they've won games, which they have, or whether they've lost games.

[Zena Keda]

I'm very curious as to if these cities that already had a WNBA team that previously folded will have the same clamor and the same desire and the same passion for a team that had, in their opinion, been starved of women's basketball forever in the fact that Golden State had not had a team. And you cannot, for people that do not live in the Bay. Sacramento is not the Bay Area. That is a no faux pas.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Don't do that.

[Zena Keda]

Also, you can't say San Fran. Things I learned when I moved here. But this place had been so fertile for women's basketball for so long. And so it's gonna be very curious to see what these other places that lost their team and now want em back, maybe they come with the same level of energy because they're like, damn, we get our chance again. This is our opportunity. And you're right on that moment that Ohem is talking about, I cannot remember right now because they've done it multiple times. But Kayla Thornton and or Tip Hayes, they speak to the crowd. And I think after that game, they thanked the. I think it was Tip Hayes that thanked the crowd. Regardless, like, thank you guys for showing up. Thank you for the energy. Keep coming back. And that was very much indicative of what Ballhalla has been. So all y' all other cities, we've been talking about the blueprint for these teams, for these front offices. We just set you the blueprint on how to be good fans. Okay? You gotta keep showing up. You gotta keep coming back. This has been a really dope conversation, and now it's time to set your screens. If you love to travel, Capital One.

[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

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[Ben Pickman]

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[Zena Keda]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

Worse is if he promised to cook.

[Zena Keda]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, after all of those sports that you mentioned, I feel a little silly not mentioning a game. But I'm a little delayed on this. Took me a while to watch it. Everyone should watch the Tarazi mini doc on Amazon prime, period. It's very good. It's only three episodes. You get some really nice footage of Diana earlier in her career, both domestically and in Russia. Great stuff from her parents. Real stars of the show. Like, I can't tell you how many people recognize Diana's parents at the Sparks Mercury game this week because they had watched the doc. We're like, oh, those are Diana Tarazi's parents sitting courtside. But yeah, it's really good. It's just a nice look at what the WNBA was like before we got to this boom. And I highly recommend it. You have an extra day this long weekend to check out. Only three episodes. It's like hour pop. So a really good watch.

[Zena Keda]

Yep. I love that. I love the Taurasi documentary. I was shocked to see her ponytail before we saw the bun. I was like, I didn't even know she had that much hair. It was crazy. There's so Much more than just a ponytail in that documentary. It is fascinating. You guys want to get into the underbelly of international women's basketball. There's so much in there that I learned. Such a fun documentary, cool documentary. And also Diana Taurasi is like the coolest. So I could have used like seven.

[Sabrina Merchant]

More episodes of it, honestly.

[Zena Keda]

Absolutely.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Three was not at all.

[Zena Keda]

I watched it on a plane. I watched it on a plane. I'm telling you, these people beside me, like I was cracking up. I was sad. I started crying at some of the things that, you know, her parents were referencing because as an immigrant myself, I know what that feels like to give special moments to your parents like she did with the draft and all these different things. And so it was a roller coaster on that plane. But I definitely enjoyed that documentary. That's a really good one. Thank you for mentioning that. Ben, what are you watching?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I'll go the basketball route and throw some games in. Sabrina mentions the three part documentary. I'm gonna cheat. I'll throw three quick games that you should flag here. Okay, Number one, Indiana at la. That is a Friday night game. I wonder if Sabrina will be there. But these are two teams very much in the playoff conversation. LA fighting to try and claim one of these playoff spots. Indiana injury riddled, trying to stay in the playoffs. That's 10, 10pm Eastern time on Saturday. Then afternoon you have New York at Phoenix. Two teams, four and five seed battling out. That is an evening game. Yes. What did I say? Afternoon, Sabrina. Yeah, no, that is an evening game also 10pm Eastern. 4 and 5 seed very in play for both of them. Huge game in the desert. And if I go to one more Sparks game, because I think this is also worth a flag. Washington at LA on Sunday evening, 8pm Eastern time. Again, for the reasons I just mentioned. Washington seemingly out of the picture. Maybe they have one last push in them in LA again, as I said, trying to get that birth that they so desperately want. So those are three. Three games for a three part doc to match you tick for tax parlay, you might say. Yes.

[Zena Keda]

Look at, look at you. Look at you. We've been going in on the P words today. Um, okay, I feel like. Ben, I'm gonna go with you. Um, I'm also gonna go with you.

[Ben Pickman]

Hopefully not with three more games.

[Zena Keda]

No, no, no, no, no. We don't need three more games. But if there is a game, I would add on to that. I probably would add in the. The Valkyries Indiana Fever game on Sunday for similar reasons in the playoff conversation. The Valkyries really need a strong finish. Strong so that they don't drop anymore. The biggest thing is try to finish out 22. 22. Since we're talking about the Valkyries today, I gotta find a way. I think all the teams need to end up at 22, 22. At least 22 games, at least 22 wins. And Valkyries just now at the time, they're recording this, getting on the top half of 50% on the season. So we'll see if they can continue to stay in the win column. But that's it for today, guys. Anything else to add?

[Ben Pickman]

Just happy to be back, Xena. Just happy to talk to you guys again.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, we're happy to have you back, Ben. Thank you for joining us. And thank you for all of you that are listening or watching on YouTube. We're gonna see you guys on Friday. We're gonna talk all things wnba. Remember, we're putting together a mailbag episode. So, you know that time, like this time right now in the show where I'm always like, hey, guys, like, write us. Leave us a comment. Like, hang out with us. Yeah, this is actually serious.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Okay?

[Zena Keda]

We're being real about this because we're gonna answer your questions. All those things that are keeping you up at night, we got you. Don't worry. So definitely make sure you do that. Hey, guys, leave a comment. Engage. Make sure you subscribe. Also, because we're fun. We're fun to hang out with and you don't wanna miss out the next time that there is to hang out with us. We're not gonna wait for you, so subscribe. So you're there. No, I'm just joking. We'll wait for you. Don't worry. We'll be available when you need us. All right, make sure that you head on over to our partner, the Yahoo Sports hub. There's more content there. Sports.yahoo.com women's sports. Women's-sports on behalf of the Athletic, Ben Pickman, Sabrina Merchant. I'm Zena Keda, thanking you for listening. We'll see you next time. No off season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio, and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations. Ready to order?

[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Keda]

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